1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Shout out to our super producer, 4 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams. This one might be the one that 5 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: gets us in uh and yet I don't want to 6 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: say hot water uh in Dutch? Maybe in Dutch, maybe 7 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: a Mandarin, maybe in Campanese. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's definitely 8 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: not something that we've shied away from on our other 9 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: show Stuff they Don't Want You to Know. But it's 10 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: definitely a subject that a lot of people may be 11 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: more familiar with this from the ubiquitous add and marketing 12 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: campaign of this thing that we're talking about today, shin 13 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: n There's like literally memes where it's like you Shin 14 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: yun Billboard on the moon. Because whoever does in the 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: marketing for this thing has it on lock pretty good. 16 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: Their budget must be through the roof. Yeah, I'm ben 17 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: your knowl what's true? We do another show called Stuff 18 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 1: they Don't Want You to Know, where we have an 19 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: episode that might be a good counterpart to this called 20 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: What's going On with the Fa Lon Gong. We also 21 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: want to tell you, you know, I'm not a big 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: fan of over hyping stuff. But Stephen via SNL style, 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: this story has everything. It's got some romance like you 24 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: would see in our Sisters show, ridiculous romance. It's got 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: some crime like you would see in our Peer podcast 26 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: ridiculous crime. And this thing is always in the news 27 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: such that I wouldn't be surprised if our pals I've 28 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: ridiculous News cover it soon. It's very true. It's also 29 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: just kind of in the zeitgeist. It's everywhere you look, 30 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: whether it's in like a little you know, leaflet that's 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: shoved under your you know, car windshield wiper, like a 32 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: little door knob hanger thingy, or just a flyer in 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: a restaurant for example, or like I said before, a billboard. 34 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: Shen Yun is a theatrical experience that really sort of 35 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: almost circle style, focuses on dance and and um, you know, 36 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: acrobatics and you know, the drama and all of that stuff. 37 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: Is it's there's not really a story per se. It's 38 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: more of a variety show and it on the surface, 39 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: it's meant to highlight kind of the culture of China. Yeah, yeah, 40 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: and it's visually it's stunning, like you could see it 41 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: in Vegas the same way you would see Circle or 42 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: Siegfried and Roy. It's also very transparent in uh it's 43 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: overall narrative in a way that surprises some theater goers, 44 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: which will we'll get into You wouldn't You wouldn't be 45 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: able to tell uh much about the history and ownership 46 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: of Nyan if you just looked at the flyers. But 47 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: you have probably seen these if you live in a 48 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: big city in the United States. One of the more 49 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: popular taglines have used in the past is five thousand 50 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: years of civilization reborn. Uh you can you like it's 51 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: as his as ubiquitous as those cars for kids jingles. 52 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: You will see a lot of people going just because 53 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: they love the visuals. It feels like a cultural experience. 54 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: But today's episode is about the the true owners, the orchestrators, 55 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: you could say the puppet masters, but definitely the choreographers 56 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: of shen Yan, a spiritual movement known as following gong 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: or following data. Before maybe we get to their before 58 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: we unpack that well maybe we uh, maybe we give 59 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: the official like the shen Yan narrative of what shen 60 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: Yan is. So according to the troop who performs this 61 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: all over the country based out of their headquarters in 62 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: New York. What is shen Yan? What what do they 63 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: do in the story? Yeah, I mean it's like, well, 64 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: it's like the tagline suggests, you know, it's it's it's 65 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: a highlighting of the rich cultural history of China as 66 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: a country, as a people. It really has a cultural 67 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: kind of hub um and you know, in terms of 68 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: the dance and the costumes and the various you know 69 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: eras uh. They describe from the Yellow Emperor of antiquity 70 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: to the splendor of the Tang dynasty, all the way 71 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: to the exquisite elegance of the Qing. The lineage of 72 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: Chinese civilization runs five millennia deep. It is a story 73 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: brimming with heroes real and imagine, their legacy preserved in 74 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: tales of courage and sacrifice, integrity and loyalty, co passion 75 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: and virtue and stuff. Yeah. And they talk about China's 76 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: ancient name, the land of the Divine. It is true 77 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: that the history of the country of China does date 78 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: back into mythology, especially when you get into the ancient days, 79 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: and this is the place where people figured out some 80 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: fundamentals of medicine, of calligraphy, paper, gunpowder, lots of stuff 81 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: come from ancient China, and this seems like it's a 82 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: cultural celebration of this. However, you're not gonna see the 83 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: shen Yuan show actually in the PRC, the People's Republic 84 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: of China, because the Communist Party thinks the UH thinks 85 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: that shen Yuan and the its creators are a threat 86 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: to the rule of the party, which sounds weird. It 87 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: sounds like it almost sounds like we're saying, you know, 88 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: the White House has banned cirque for all of their 89 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, anti capitalist leanings or something like. You would 90 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: you would wonder, why are you hitting up a circus 91 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: act like this. But as we'll see, there's a lot 92 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: more to this story. China has systematically, especially during the 93 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: Cultural Revolution, destroyed ancient treasures, they uprooted traditional beliefs. According again, 94 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: this is shen Yan side of the story. According to them, 95 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, a group of Chinese artists, 96 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: classical artists, came together an n y C and they said, 97 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: we're gonna revive the traditional divinely inspired culture of China. 98 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 1: We're gonna share it with the world. We're gonna do 99 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 1: it through this thing we're calling shin Jun, and you'll 100 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: see no like you can find their literature online or 101 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: in person. When they talk about the artistic freedom they enjoy, 102 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: they talk about how nothing like this can be seen 103 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: in China today and they're not still not allowed to 104 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: perform there, that's true. Uh, And they say that they're 105 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: sparking a cultural renaissance. Fascinating, isn't it when these kinds 106 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: of regimes come into power in a part of the 107 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: world where so much history has laid the groundwork for 108 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: for what is you know, the now, whether it be uh, 109 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, Romans sweeping in and trying to get rid 110 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: of other faiths or whatever it might be. We just 111 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: know that this typically does not work. But it creates 112 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: so much division and um and backlash. So it is 113 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: a really interesting thing to think about this being kind 114 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: of this cultural revolution. But it turns out it's not 115 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: quite as simple as that, right, Yeah, that's correct. The 116 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: issue here is the organization the Spiritual Movement Fa Lung Gong. 117 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: It was founded by a man named Lie hong Shi, 118 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: who registered the group with the Chinese government back in 119 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: nineteen two, and uh Le Hongi had to do this 120 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: because after the Tianamen Square protests, the Chinese part Communist 121 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: Party excuse me, required all social organizations to register with 122 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: the party. He blew up really quickly. A lot of 123 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: people started following him. They started holding these huge rallies. 124 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: And if you look at if you look at what 125 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: they're doing, they're practicing uh keegong or chi gong breathing exercises, 126 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: right and and Lee himself said he developed this system 127 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: after consulting and learning from more than twenty masters. But 128 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: in addition to the kind of breathing exercises you might 129 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: be thinking of or picturing, he added a lot more 130 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: mythological lore or spiritual lore teachings about a world full 131 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: of demons and aliens, and his books became best sellers. 132 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: There were more than two thousand following Gong practice stations 133 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: in Beijing alone by the mid nineties. And at first, 134 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: from what I understand, the at the very beginning, the 135 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: Chinese government wasn't super opposed to them the way they 136 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: are now. Yeah, that's right. Um, it was a little 137 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: bit more of a of a cozy relationship at first, 138 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: because it did focus on this pursuit of virtue and tradition, 139 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: which I guess was something that the Chinese government officials 140 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: were able to kind of get behind. UM even were 141 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: praised for the focus on these kinds of these kinds 142 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: of values. So the founder back then fell and Gong 143 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: was credited in one of China's UM state run you know, 144 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: UM bodies the Ministry of Public Security as a way 145 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: of promoting traditional crime fighting virtues of the Chinese people, 146 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: in safeguarding social order and security, and in promoting rectitude 147 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: in society. Yeah, and then even the National Sports Commission said, hey, 148 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: following Dafa, following Gong is helpful for individuals from a 149 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: medical perspective, and it actually saves our country some money 150 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to healthcare. But as we explored and stuff, 151 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know, there was a turn, 152 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: uh that there's a turn that went down in the 153 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: ninety nineties, and the Communist Party began to be concerned 154 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: that a large chunk of the population was more loyal 155 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: to the leader of Following Gong than they were to 156 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 1: the party, which is always a big, big no no 157 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: in an authoritarian regime. So by this is where numbers 158 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: get sticky, right, because movements Let's be honest, can some 159 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: times embellish their numbers, and governments can sometimes embellish the 160 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: numbers of what they see as opponents, so take it 161 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: with a grain. Assault by the Chinese government was estimating 162 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 1: the group had seventy million members, which sounds like a 163 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: cartoonishly impossible number until you remember that the country of 164 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: China has one point three billions something people living in it, 165 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: so it's not impossible. They started cracking down. There was 166 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: there were protests that were being held in front of 167 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: government compounds, as described by Jia Tolentino in The New Yorker. 168 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: Eventually the authorities put out arrest at arrest warrant for Lee, 169 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: but Lee was already long gone. He knew something was 170 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: in the wind, and so he ghosted out the Queens 171 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: New York, which would later go out to be the 172 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: headquarters of shen Yan. Connecting some Charlie Day dots here. 173 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: But as we know, a big hallmark of the Communist 174 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Party and of the Chinese Communist Party specifically is information 175 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: controlled and censorship. Although that actually was one of the 176 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: less problematic bits of backlash that Foulon Gong folks had 177 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: to deal with. According to an access wire Peace that 178 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: was republished in Yahoo Finance. In March of this year, 179 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: human rights organizations estimated that thousands of Foulonog followers have 180 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: been jailed and even killed for refusing to denounce their 181 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,119 Speaker 1: beliefs because again, a lot of this, this true backlash 182 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: came from a concern that these folks were more loyal 183 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: to the the founder of Foulonong they were to the 184 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: Communist Party. So when they refused to denounce their beliefs 185 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: essentially bend the knee, you know, or swear fealty if 186 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: imhnee Game of Thrones fans out there, they were jailed 187 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: and potentially even killed in certain situations. So Felling Gong 188 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: went from being this sort of you know, running mate 189 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: of the state, I guess, to being kind of persona 190 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: non grata, and anyone associated with it had the potential 191 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: to be you know, harassed and dealt with in the 192 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: harshest possible terms. Oh yeah, yeah. The the idea of 193 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: making a movement illegal sounds might sound very strange to 194 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: people based in the US, but this is exactly what happened. 195 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: The PRC since had been trying to crack down on 196 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: the movement by blocking Internet access to websites that mentioned 197 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: Following Gong. They called it an auretical organization. They even 198 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: on the official website of the Chinese embassy in the 199 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: United States, described Lee Hongshi as an evil figure who's 200 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: udulent behavior has quote seriously disrupted social order and sabotage 201 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: the hard earned social stability of China. And Following Gong 202 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: also has been accusing the Chinese government of harvesting organs 203 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: from imprisoned Following Gong followers. Yeah, and and now that's 204 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: a hot that's that's a hot accusation. Many experts will 205 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: dispute this, but nobody is disputing that the government is 206 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: cracking down on Following Gong. And there's one thing that's 207 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: tough here, which is that both both entities in this conflict, 208 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: Following Gong and the PRC, the or the Communist Party, 209 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: excuse me, they both communicate via propaganda. Remember how I 210 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier the tricky thing about embellishing numbers. It's kind 211 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: of tough to triangulate the truth from these sources. You 212 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: will see that Following Gong has been described for this 213 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: reason as one of the most miss serious chapters in 214 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: the history of modern China. The censorship regimen is simply 215 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: growing and exploding. Still, we know that Following God members 216 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: are genuinely persecuted. We just don't know to what degree 217 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: that occurs. And you wouldn't know any of this if 218 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: you look at just a shen yan ad now, and 219 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: you wouldn't know any of this if it weren't for 220 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: folks you know, in the system. They're putting themselves at 221 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: serious risk because again, as we know, the kind of 222 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: iron fisted control of the Chinese Communist Party has over 223 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: information uh is very very real. So yeah, we were 224 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: not going to get any of the real details here 225 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: um outside of certain human rights watch groups who aren't 226 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: given access because they don't have to be right right, 227 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: they don't really have a way to force the government 228 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: to give them unfettered access. And you see similar issues 229 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: with the weakers in Xinyang. So this is like, this 230 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: is a known pattern. But with shin Yun itself, you 231 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: gotta you gotta admit like it's a super lavish production. 232 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: It's everywhere. You might be surprised to learn shen Yuan 233 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: is a nonprofit despite the fact that has more than 234 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: seventy five million dollars in assets, more than twenty two 235 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: million dollars in annual revenue, and if you look at 236 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: how much money they spend, you might be surprised to 237 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: learn that they're in the black in terms of accounting, right, like, 238 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: they're not a losing proposition. And there's a great piece 239 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: in The Guardian that our research associate doctor Zach found 240 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:46,479 Speaker 1: by Nicholas Hughan Brown, who talks about just how coordinated 241 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: the advertising campaign is because it really is propaganda. And again, 242 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: propaganda is not always inherently bad, just to be clear, 243 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: but this this definitely does have a narrative and it 244 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: it is a persuasive it's trying to convince you to 245 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: believe certain things. And in that New York Or article 246 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, you can get in the weeds of 247 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: the finances. You can see that we're talking about millions 248 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: and millions and millions of dollars. But we need to 249 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: note that the reason shen Yan's finances seemed to pencil 250 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: out is because they have a lot of volunteers working there, 251 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: a lot of following Gong followers, like just the one 252 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: in the office in San Francisco has a hundred volunteers. 253 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: The theater company has two hundred and eleven, they're making 254 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: a lot of money and off air, no, we've talked 255 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: about whether or not this was us coming down too 256 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: hard on the government of China. But just like in 257 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: our stuff, they don't want you to know episode we 258 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: see that there's a lot of questionable stuff on Following 259 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: Gong side too. I mean, Following Gong is really waging 260 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: a I want to call the war, but a propaganda conflict. 261 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: They're using what's called anti communist ad jets, prop agitating propaganda, 262 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 1: and things got really weird for a lot of US 263 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: residents when they teamed up with a former Trump administration 264 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: what record scratch, So any New Yorkers might be aware 265 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: of any number of you know pamphlets are small kind 266 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: of run newspapers associated with certain ethnic groups in the city, 267 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: some of which are really cool and and very very 268 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: interesting um and and not necessarily fully propaganda at all. 269 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 1: But one in particular, The Epic Times that once was 270 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: a very small, low budget newspaper with kind of an 271 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: anti China, not anti Chinese, anti China the state you 272 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: know bent that was handed out and like much like 273 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: those other ones that I was talking about, for free 274 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: on the streets of New York. But around teen on 275 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: the paper kind of pivoted uh and in a couple 276 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: of very important ways, and became one of the United 277 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: states most ubiquitous and and powerful really online um distributors 278 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: of information. The changes also gave way to the publication 279 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: essentially becoming a let's just say, a means of disinformation, 280 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: not specifically about China, but about American politics. It became 281 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: kind of a leading uh spreader of right wing propaganda. 282 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, big Thanks to Kevin rose Over the New 283 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: York Times wrote an excellent article about this. Because the 284 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: they bet it, they bet big on Facebook and became 285 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: a world class source of right wing misinformation. They treated 286 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: President Trump as an ally in following Gongs fight against 287 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: the rule in Communist Party, and as US politics became 288 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: more divisive during the rise of the Trump candidacy in 289 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: later presidency, they bet increasingly on Trump and criticized his opponents. 290 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: So they were able to do something that you know, 291 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: Russian discan foe forces have done as well, creating dozens 292 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: and dozens of dummy Facebook pages, getting a lot of 293 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: viral clickbait like hey look at these unusual animal friends, Oh, 294 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: what's that penguin doing? With that tiger stuff like that, 295 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: I made up the penguin tiger video, but send me 296 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: one if there's a real one, I'll watch it. They 297 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: found that this goal here, the goal of the Facebook 298 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: strategy was to turn the Epoch Times into the world's 299 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: largest and most authoritative media and then leverage that to 300 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: introduce millions of people to the teachings of following Gong. 301 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: And now even as we record, the Epic Times and 302 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: its affiliates are a big force and right wing media. 303 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: They have tens of millions of social media followers against 304 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: you know, when you aggregate all the platforms and all 305 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: the pages together. They also like there their audiences could 306 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: go toe to toe numbers wise with bright Bar or 307 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: The Daily Caller. And they also started influencing Trump's inner 308 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: circle absolutely. And it's interesting if you go to the website, uh, 309 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: the Epic Times dot com, you see exactly what we're 310 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: talking about. It is it looks pretty much like you 311 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: see something something you see on the front page of 312 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: Bright Bar and they're, uh, you know, much like a 313 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: lot of these um kind of spurl us let's say sources. 314 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: They have a tagline that really emphasizes really hits home 315 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: just how just right and and uh and insteadfast and 316 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: and you know pure. They are truth and tradition, fact based, unpassed. 317 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: So let's throw some more. Whereas some buzzwords there that 318 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: probably means the opposite of what is actually true. And 319 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: again we're not a political show here, but this these 320 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: types of whether you whatever side of the divides you 321 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: fall on, there are certain sources that it is impossible 322 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: to ignore that they are just absolutely capitalizing on fearmongering 323 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: and this information in order to serve another goal. And 324 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: the interesting thing here is it isn't even like the 325 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: right wing goal of of of American politicians. It's something 326 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: else entirely m yeah, yeah, And it's just sort of 327 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: a a coincidental common cause. We know that Trump administration 328 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: sat with reporters from Epic Times for interviews. They were 329 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: in White House press briefings. Uh, this is this is 330 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: a success story because they're getting closer and closer to 331 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: the levels of power inside one of China's largest rivals, 332 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: China's largest rival geopolitically full stop. Uh, they even you know, 333 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: they still you know, we're repping their stripes. In two 334 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: thousand and six, Epic Times reporter disrupted a White House 335 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: visit by the Chinese president and they busted in and 336 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 1: they were just yelling evil people will die early. Uh. 337 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: Kind of hard to smooth that one over, you know, Like, 338 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: what do you say that's a compliment in Queen's sir? Right? 339 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: How do they reconcile, Like, you know how much America 340 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: needs China and how just to kind of entrench the 341 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: two countries are with one another. And you know, whereas 342 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: I know that Trump did do some rhetoric kind of surrounding, 343 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: you know, big talk against China, but then ultimately ended 344 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: up cozying to President She pretty good. Yeah, and that's 345 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: cheese and ping the Yeah. The the issue is that 346 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: they're hoping to leverage a already increasingly radicalized base and 347 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: then insert their own beliefs and cause into that base, 348 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: sort of make it a combo meal, right, Like how 349 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: big Coleslaw made it self part of every Chick fil 350 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: a combo. That's not a true story, but you believed 351 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: it for a second, didn't you did. Yeah, I'm I'm 352 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: an enemy of it as well. Sorry, I love most food, 353 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: but cole slaw is just something's not right with it. 354 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: So we have to we have to point this out. 355 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: They also promoted a lot of conspiracy theories against Trump's 356 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: political rivals were enemies. Uh, They've been linked to promotion 357 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: of q and on conspiracy theories and spreading miss info 358 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: about voter fraud and so on. They also, of course, 359 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: when covid hit called it the CCP virus, trying to 360 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: link it to the Chinese Communist Party directly, I believe 361 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: are required to say that. The Epoch Times themselves says 362 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: they're independent and nonpartisan and absolutely not officially associated with 363 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: following Gong. That's right. And if we buried the lead 364 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: there and that that is where this this this publication 365 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: in its earliest forms was very much connected, you know, 366 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: That's what it was. It was an anti Chinese state 367 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: publication that was handed out like almost like you'd you know, 368 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: get literature from Hari Krishna's at the airport or something 369 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: like that. It was very much you know, spreading in 370 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: particular ideology and then it morphed into this. So if 371 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: that affiliation went by the wayside, it's not really clear 372 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: from the from the record, but it honestly serves them 373 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: better to say they're not affiliated with that organization. Yeah, 374 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: and just the issue is at least for me, I 375 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: don't think that's true. I think they've just been told 376 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: to say that. Uh. The New York Times contacted Following 377 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: Gong practitioners and employees of Epoch Times to try to 378 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: figure this out, and they said they couldn't divulge details 379 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: of how the paper was actually run or how the 380 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: media outfit was run, and they said that speaking negatively 381 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: about the Epoch Times would be the same thing as 382 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: disobeying Mr Lee, who, of course the Following Gong disciples 383 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: referred to as Master Uh and the outlet. When when 384 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: The New York Times asked them some of these hard questions, 385 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: Epoch Times report replied by saying, you're defaming and diminishing 386 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: us because we're a competitor, and you are either being religious, 387 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: you're attempting religious intimidation or outright bigotry by linking us 388 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: the Following Gong. We will not be intimidated, we will 389 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: not be silenced. We will consider all legal options. But again, 390 00:26:54,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: it seems like they're related from every everything that has 391 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: been discovered and is all in public record, it's true, 392 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: and so that's just one weird turn of the story. 393 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: And again we're not intending this to be a hit 394 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: piece on any of these organizations, But there are some 395 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 1: very odd kind of details that that emerged the deeper 396 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: you dig. So we've we've gone into the China part 397 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: of it, We've gone into how chin Yon was definitely 398 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 1: at one point is associated with this epic times. Now 399 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: let's get more into what the actual beliefs in practices 400 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: of uh Follonong are and where maybe there might be 401 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: some slightly sketchy stuff contained there in as well, because 402 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: we you know, the early part of the story really 403 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: makes them out to kind of be these protectors of 404 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: Chinese culture and these freedom fighters against you know, something 405 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: that we could rightly identify with as being a negative force, 406 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: the idea of the totalitarian regime that that does, you know, 407 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: clamp down on censorship and and information control and all 408 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: of that stuff. But when you really dig into the 409 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: organization itself, there's some pretty stuff in there. Two yeah, 410 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: and this is where you get to the argument about 411 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: whether or not this organization should be considered a cult, 412 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: which is very sensitive because as as we know, I'm 413 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: sure you don't have to tell you, folks, most organizations 414 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: that you would think of as cults will get offended 415 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: if you use the C word to refer to them. 416 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: So Lee hung sheet. If we're getting into beliefs, then 417 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: we see that former believers have some pretty disturbing pictures 418 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: of daily life under his control. They said, you know, 419 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: we don't have access to information. We can't use modern medicine. 420 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: He will tell us who to have a romantic relationship 421 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: with the practitioners. The followers are expected to devote their 422 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: lives to the message of following Gong and Master Lee. 423 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: You've got to cut off friends and family members who 424 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: aren't going to get on board with the message. This 425 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: is classic day one cult stuff, Lee. If we want 426 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: to get to this special of it beliefs, Lee says, 427 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: stuff like evolution is made up. It's a hoax, it's 428 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: a fraud. He also says heaven practices racial segregation. People 429 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: that Heaven is real, people of different races are going 430 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: to be separate. Homosexuality and promiscuity are unnatural. Let's see 431 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: what else. Oh, the reason people are dependent on modern 432 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: science is because aliens are trying to control humans through it. Yeah, yeah, 433 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: that's that's an interesting detail. The the aliens, they are 434 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: the ones that are that really have the strangle hold 435 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: on on the information UM not the Chinese government. So 436 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: that's yeah, this is almost like the stuff you find 437 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: out about scientology once you get further down the bridge. Uh. 438 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: And in one you know, very important hallmark of cults 439 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: that we've talked about um is in the past here 440 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: on the show and also on stuff they don't want 441 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: you to know is the necessity of members too cut 442 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: off ties with outsiders, whether it be to whether it 443 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: be their family or friends or anyone that could be 444 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: seen as a negative influence or or in some way 445 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,719 Speaker 1: contradicting what they're being taught under the tutelage of like 446 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, the leader of the movement or whatever it 447 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: might be. Also to proselytize and spread the word and 448 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: pass out these pamphlets and you know, go forth and 449 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: all of that stuff. And that is a thing that 450 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: appears to be part of Fallon Gong's practices and the 451 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: in the way they're you know, they expect their adherents 452 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: to behave m HM. And they also seem very at 453 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: least outsiders. They seem incredibly defensive and reactive not just 454 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: a criticism, but the basic questions, you know, the kind 455 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: of stuff that you might ask as a person on 456 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: the street if you want to learn more, you know, 457 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: teach me more about following Gong. What do you think 458 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: about this? Blah blah blah. That's why cult experts like 459 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: Rick Allen Ross, who founded the Cult Education Institute, devotes 460 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: two chapters to following going in his book Cults Inside Out, 461 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: How People Get In and Can Get Out. Uh. He 462 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: has worked in d programming following Gong followers. He says 463 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: they are a cult. He says they're a destructive cult. 464 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: He compares Master Lee to l Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology, 465 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: and uh. He apparently also Ross has been able to 466 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: get more ideas about the inner workings of following Gong, 467 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: and he said Lee claims to possess supernatural powers, and 468 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: uh says that shen Yuan is ultimately, at the end 469 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: of the day, a multimillion dollar marketing and recruiting arm 470 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: of Lee's financial empire. I still gotta say, though, man, 471 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: I really wanted to go back to Shenya and back 472 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: in my college days, and after learning the stuff we 473 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: did on Stuff Then What You Know and a couple 474 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: of other shows that I appeared on, I feel pretty conflicted, 475 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: like would you guys still go to Shenyan Shenyan performance 476 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: knowing this, Oh no, not knowing where the money is 477 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: funneling back. I don't think so. I actually did they. 478 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: I used to work at a theater back in in Augusta, 479 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: where I grew up. I worked at the kind of 480 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: a mid sized you know, maybe a thousand seats the 481 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: theater a little less, and we hosted shen Yan once. 482 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: Or if it wasn't Shenion, it was something very Shenyon adjacent. 483 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: It was very similar, and I might be conflating it 484 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: in my mind. If that's the case, then then forgive me. 485 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: But uh no, I don't think I would. You know, 486 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: there there are also reports that, you know, people that 487 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: have left, or let's call it escaped. I guess this. 488 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: This organization have claimed that, uh, the leader believed that 489 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,959 Speaker 1: he could or they they were led to truly believe 490 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: that the leader could read their minds and uh and 491 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: and pull out their deepest, darkest thoughts and judge them accordingly. Yeah, 492 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: I know, I was. I was actually pretty creeped out beforehand, 493 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: because right before we're recording, I was teaming lunch and 494 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: I was just like watching the news and a shen 495 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: Yon commercial came on. I'm like, oh wow, we are 496 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: literally about recording episode about this. I've been reading about 497 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: this like this is a creeping me. But I have 498 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: one question for you guys. This cult expert Rick Allen Ross, 499 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: that's a different Rick Ross, right, Yeah, No, Unfortunately it's 500 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: a different Rick Ross, which is why he had to 501 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: go with Alan Ross. It would be cool if if 502 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: they were the same guy. Yeah, and uh, I believe 503 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: Rick Ross, the MC and producer has has in the 504 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: past compared Baby Williams to something of a cult leader 505 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: or definitely predatory, but that might be a story for 506 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: another day. Again, this is one of the most important 507 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: things we have to say here is we're obviously not 508 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: denigrating anybody's personal spiritual beliefs. We just think it's important 509 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: to know what, uh like the murky story behind shen 510 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: Yan and when we know on we did this for 511 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: stuff they wants you to know. We had a lot 512 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: of folks writing and what their experiences watching the show 513 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: and how they how they felt about the themes of 514 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: persecution that are tied into the historical narrative of the performance. 515 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: So we would love to hear your thoughts folks on 516 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: If you've ever been to a Shenyane performance, did you 517 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 1: enjoy it? Have you ever been to like a falloon 518 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: gong gathering? If so, what did you think? Did you 519 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: meet Master Lee? Is he chill? What's he like? Just? 520 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: Could he read your mind? Because he was he like 521 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: shining at you? Uh, let us know you can find us. 522 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: It's best to just find us as individual people. Ben, 523 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: I believe you're on Twitter, um until until that thing 524 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: implodes in the meantime, aren't you Ben Bowling hs w uh? 525 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: No you remember, thanks, but it's nameing my birthday. Yeah, 526 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter as appen Bowling hs w uh one 527 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: of the big things there is. You can also find 528 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: Max Williams on Twitter until until uh Ellen burns it 529 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: down and you can you can also find me on Instagram. 530 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: You can see all the weird adventures I'm getting into 531 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: and research i'm doing. Uh spoiler, I guess stuff coming 532 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: up that I probably can't talk about air, but I'll 533 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,439 Speaker 1: sneak mentions of it on the old I g where 534 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: I am at ben Boland And if you're on Instagram, 535 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: that's where you can also find Mr Noel Brown. It's 536 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: sure I'm an open book. You can find me at 537 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: how Now Noel Brown on the old Instagrams In the meantime, 538 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: Huge thanks to super producer Max Williams uh for just 539 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: sticking with us. I know you said you were a 540 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: little punchy and and I didn't notice any of that. 541 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, you have you really you rolled right 542 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: through those punchies. Big big thanks to a research associate, 543 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: Dr Zach Big thanks to our own master Lee Jonathan Strickland, 544 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: a k a. The Quister, Eve's Jeff Coach Christopher Hasciotis 545 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: you know him? You love them all the hits, Folks. 546 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: It's Friday. We're about to get out of here. I 547 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: think I might go see a show. I don't know 548 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: what it'll be, but it's probably not gonna be Chanelle Saving. 549 00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: I think I might just go to like a Farmer's 550 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: mark It or something instead. Uh, we'll see you next time, folks. 551 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I 552 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 553 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.