1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: Excited to be joined this morning by Amber Frost. She 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: is a writer, activist, former co host of Chapo traph House, 12 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: and author of the brand new book Dirt Bag Essays 13 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: and Put It Up on the Screen, available wherever books 14 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: are sold. 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 4: Now. Welcome Amber. It's great to meet you. 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 3: Nice to meet you too. Thanks for having me on. 17 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, of course. 18 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: So first let's start with, like, what made you decide 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: to write the book? Now, one of the things that 20 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: you talk about is you felt like this particular arc, 21 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: either in national left politics or in your life had 22 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: kind of come to an end, and so if you 23 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: felt like it was an appropriate moment to write the book. 24 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: So what is the phase that you feel like came 25 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: to an end that enabled you to write this. 26 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 5: Book, well, honestly, I started writing it before it came 27 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 5: to an end, which you know obviously required some retooling, 28 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 5: and we knew that sort of going into it. 29 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 3: I knew that I. 30 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 5: Wanted to start sort of with where I came from 31 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 5: and how I ended up, you know, on the left, 32 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 5: quote unquote whatever that means, and I ended up in 33 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 5: Occupy Wall Street. So I had already seen that end, 34 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 5: and I knew through a lot of smaller moments that 35 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 5: most of these things do kind of fizzle out. But 36 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 5: you know, when I was trying to get a book deal, 37 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 5: Bernie was very much still on the table and very promising. 38 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 5: And I think all of us on the podcast and 39 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 5: most of the people I knew going into it, were like, 40 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 5: you know, not Bertie's gonna win, But we're like, this 41 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 5: is the best opportunity we've had in a really long time. 42 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 5: So I went into it with like this baby kind 43 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 5: of attitude. And then I was like, what's going to 44 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 5: happen if what is most likely to happen will, which 45 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 5: is that he doesn't win. 46 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: And then I was like, I'll deal with that later. 47 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 4: But figure that out if again, yeah, yeah. 48 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 5: Which touch which took a lot longer than I thought, 49 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 5: because COVID sort of threw me for a loop and 50 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 5: I sort of struggled with kind of trying to find 51 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 5: a bow to put on the end of it. And 52 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 5: then I guess at some point I just thought, well, 53 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 5: you don't have like the happiest ending in the world, 54 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 5: and you should just be honest about that. Yeah, it 55 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 5: doesn't mean it's the end of the world, but sometimes 56 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 5: you lose. 57 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is life, especially life in left politics. I 58 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: want people to understand this is not just like a 59 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: you know, a retelling of what happened with Bernie, either 60 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen or twenty twenty. It's I mean, you 61 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: can tell me if you think that this description is right. 62 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: It's like part memoir, part you know, description of the 63 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: journey of yourself and as an activist, but also tracking 64 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: these major movements from Occupy to Bernie twenty sixteen to 65 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: Bernie twenty twenty, and you know, a part of COVID 66 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: that unfolded in recent years on the burning piece. 67 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 6: Though. 68 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: You know, what do you think that some of the 69 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: other retellings of Bernie's loss in twenty twenty, what do 70 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: you think that they sort of missed or what do 71 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: you think that they perhaps got wrong. 72 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 5: Well, I think that there are a lot of very 73 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 5: early post mortems which I wanted to avoid. I think 74 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 5: people rushed and to say exactly what happened immediately, which I. 75 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: Mean, you don't. 76 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 5: I feel like my first impressions walking away were correct, 77 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 5: but I did want to give myself some space. I 78 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 5: think there were a lot of sort of well, Bernie 79 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 5: didn't win because, you know whatever, his coalition was too 80 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 5: woke or whatever. I think that come from a place 81 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 5: of anger that I fully understand that there was kind 82 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 5: of a cannibalistic, you know whatever left that was a. 83 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: Part of Bernie's coalition. But really I think it. 84 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 5: Was as simple as you know, he faced more opposition 85 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 5: from the Democratic Party than he did from the Republicans. 86 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 5: We didn't expect him to catch on as much as 87 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 5: he did the first time. 88 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 3: But when we. 89 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 5: Really went into it for twenty sixteen, like in earnest, 90 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 5: they you know, it was a kneecap job. And I 91 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 5: think that's one of the most frustrating things is because 92 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 5: you know, maybe even if they hadn't. 93 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 3: Have done that, he wouldn't have won. But now we'll never. 94 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: Know, right, Yes, but that's also part of the nature 95 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: of being a like, you know, a lefty trying to 96 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: compete in the Democratic Party. You have to just assume 97 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: that that's going to be part of what you're facing 98 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: and what you're up against. How do you feel like 99 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: the unquote left broadly, however you wanted to find that 100 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: in America has responded to that loss. I mean there's 101 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: been a lot of you know, there's been a lot 102 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: of fracturing. There's been a lot of you know, ugliness 103 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: on Twitter, There's been I feel like a good amount 104 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: of nihilism. 105 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 4: What's been your reaction to sort of this like post 106 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 4: burning moment. 107 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 5: I mean, it's difficult because I think most of the 108 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 5: people I know have pretty strong heads on their shoulders. 109 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 5: I do have a few friends that just straight up 110 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 5: lost it afterwards. 111 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: They didn't know what to do with themselves. 112 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 5: They had all of their eggs in that one basket, 113 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 5: and that makes it difficult. I you know, it's difficult 114 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 5: to cope with loss, and I think if you don't 115 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 5: sort of, you know, cut your teeth on smaller ones, 116 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 5: it can be really devastating. 117 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: With something like Bernie. 118 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 5: I mean, as far as like the left there's not 119 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 5: really a left in the country. 120 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 3: There are a lot of you know. 121 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 5: Leftists or socialists or whatever. But if you were to 122 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 5: describe the left as sort of a powerful political movement, 123 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 5: which I would say has something having like at the 124 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 5: very least a party in a labor movement, it's not 125 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 5: something we really have. What we have right now is 126 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 5: a lot of people that are even further disfus diffused. 127 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 5: Bertie really was kind of a north star, and without that, 128 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 5: I think people are really scattered. 129 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: They're doing the best they can. 130 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 5: Obviously, I'm encouraged by a lot of the union work 131 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 5: that's going on. I'm very happy that I personally don't 132 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 5: have to pay that much attention to electoral politics living 133 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 5: in California. You know, I've lived in blue states for 134 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 5: the last many years. 135 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: But you know, I'm not. I don't have to carry 136 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 3: water for a lot of things. 137 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 5: And then it's partially upsetting because it means like I 138 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 5: have to wait for the odd, like very odd left 139 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 5: insurgent candidate that has a shot. Yeah, it ain't great, 140 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 5: but you know, you just don't know what's going to 141 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 5: happen until it happens. I never really saw Bernie coming 142 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 5: in the first place, and I still think he was 143 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 5: an amazing opportunity and the closest we've come in my lifetime. 144 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 5: But before that, I was just chugging away at kind 145 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 5: of labor stuff. Yeah, you know, nothing is nothing is 146 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 5: going to happen until one day it happens. So you 147 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 5: have to sort of just leave room for that chaos 148 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 5: energy and tried laying the track. Right now, it's the 149 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 5: very dull, boring political work of trying to sort of 150 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 5: keep people together and focused on smaller projects. 151 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: Like you, I've been extraordinarily excited by the new energy 152 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: and the labor movement, which is very different than anything 153 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: we've seen in our lifetimes, where you're actually like, it's 154 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: not concessionary contracts. You see these democratic reform movements within 155 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: large labor unions. You see them, you know with the 156 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: American people, you know firmly behind them. Is not even 157 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: partisan people overwhelming on their side. You see the grassroots effort. 158 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: So I think if more of that had happened pre Bernie, 159 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: you would have had more of the infrastructure actually to 160 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: support a candidate with his political agendas. So that does 161 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: make me help hopeful for the future. I was wondering also, 162 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: you know what you make of all of the grassroots 163 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: organizing and activism in favor of a ceasefire and against 164 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: Israel's assault on Gaza, and if that also, I mean, 165 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: obviously it's like one of the most horrifying things I've 166 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: ever seen unfold, But the fact that there's been so 167 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: much organizing and energy around it also has been sort 168 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: of hopeful and inspiring to see as well. 169 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 5: Oh sorry, I'm not going to give you a good 170 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 5: one of this. I'm not very optimistic as far as 171 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 5: what has already happened. It seems pretty it's it's it's 172 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 5: already pretty devastating. I don't think even at this point 173 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 5: that I mean, okay, so has happened for me? The 174 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 5: first time during the Iraq War you realize there was 175 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 5: a huge popular opposition to this thing, you know, right, 176 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 5: and then you also realized that. 177 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: The nation as a as a as. 178 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 5: A political entity has zero accountability to the rest of 179 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 5: the world, much less popular opinion. So I think, I mean, 180 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 5: it heartens me and it gives me faith in humanity 181 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 5: that this many people are disgusted and in many many 182 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 5: of them deprogramming themselves from a lot of propaganda. 183 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: What bothers me is the fact that. 184 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 5: We don't have a nation that's accountable to broad popular 185 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 5: opinion or moral disgusted. 186 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 3: I think the fact that the US. 187 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 5: Is supporting this and has been not just the occupation, 188 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 5: but like, you know, just just put in the boot 189 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 5: down this obviously and this brazen when without any world 190 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 5: support or popular support, is really disturbing. But I do 191 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 5: think just to go back to what you were saying about, 192 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 5: you know, the labor could have laid the groundwork. 193 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 3: I actually don't. I think that Bernie in some ways 194 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 3: invigorated the labor. 195 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 5: I'm not sure that they would be where they were 196 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 5: without that. It's kind of one hand washes the other thing. 197 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 5: And one of the things I do see being more 198 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 5: powerful is at some point when a trade union movement 199 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 5: is large enough, they do get to influence things like 200 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 5: foreign policy. Unfortunately, we have to have sort of a 201 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 5: you know, a hand and the government to to even 202 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 5: get to that point already, So it's going to be 203 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 5: a slow build. But I don't know's it's incredibly devastating 204 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 5: to watch. It's really horrifying, and I I think we've 205 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 5: already foreclosed on a happy ending. 206 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, Oh yeah, that's the ship has sailed. 207 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 3: That's pretty brutal. 208 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: What do you make of Bernie and his reaction. I 209 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: just saw a pac tweeting out, you know, their amplifying 210 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: his opposition to a ceespar. I know you describe yourself 211 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: as a Bernie loyalist. 212 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean at this point too. 213 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 5: Okay, So there's it's very interesting again to go back 214 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 5: to Labor. 215 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 3: A friend of. 216 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 5: Mine in a very large union, we'll say, has been 217 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 5: a part of hostile internal debate about whether or not 218 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 5: they should make a statement interesting on Israel. 219 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: Uh, And I'm I'm sympathetic to both sides. 220 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 7: Uh. 221 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 5: One is like, well, we should talk about what is 222 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 5: right and you know the horrible things that's going on there. 223 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 3: Two. 224 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 5: Uh, They're like, look, we aren't in the best position 225 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 5: in the world right now. This is going to be 226 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 5: very distracting from building the union. And you know, a 227 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 5: weak unions grow unions. Strong unions influence things outside of 228 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 5: the Union. As far as Bernie goes, he's always been 229 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 5: to the left of nearly everyone on foreign policy. At 230 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 5: the same time, he's a man of a certain age. 231 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 5: I I don't I don't put anyone in in Congress 232 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 5: or the Senate, or even local politics to the standards 233 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 5: I hold for a let's say, a millennial podcaster in 234 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 5: terms of foreign policy, it's just it's just an old holdover. 235 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 5: And at this point I'm like, it's it's it's not 236 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 5: it's and I don't mean Zionism in particular. I mean 237 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 5: like this idea of you know, Israel as as the 238 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 5: good guy. 239 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 3: That's kind of a. 240 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: It's a very it's like a very cold war mindset, 241 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: like there's the good countries that are on our side, 242 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: there's the bad countries that against us. 243 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 3: It's a bag over. 244 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 5: I I you know, for my part, it's the holidays. 245 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 5: I try and stay on message and say, look, I'm 246 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 5: against the occupation and you know, there are no excuses, 247 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 5: but there are reasons. And if you turn up the 248 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 5: heat high enough, water's gonna boil. 249 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 4: Amber. 250 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: You have a chapter in your book that you talk 251 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 1: about like sort of your disgust with the liberal theatrics 252 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: around Trump and how you really rejected you know, the 253 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: sort of like performative, who can act the most afraid, 254 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: who can act the most outraged, et cetera. But what 255 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: are you feeling about the fact that it is very possible, 256 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: if not very likely, that we end up with another 257 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: four years of Trump. 258 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: I'm not sure. 259 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 5: First of all, I can't really draw a bead on 260 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 5: what the possibility for that is. 261 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting. 262 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, we didn't see it coming 263 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 5: in the first place, and that was a real wake 264 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 5: up call for me because I was like, oh, the 265 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 5: death of local newspapers and the lack of you know, 266 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 5: news coverage and in quote unquote flyover Country has really 267 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 5: missed some major sentiments going on with most of the people, 268 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 5: Like wow, that we didn't see that coming at all. 269 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 5: And I think what that made me realize is that 270 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 5: we don't really have a way to check the temperature anymore, 271 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 5: you know that. It's it's it's not just having like 272 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 5: newsdesks locally, but it's about having like local newspapers. It's 273 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 5: about having labory press. So I would say the weirdest 274 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 5: part of it is that I'm. 275 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: Not sure what the actual possibility is. 276 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 5: I do think, you know, Biden's infrastructure bill, God knows, 277 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 5: I hate to give him or you know, whatever Svengali's 278 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 5: running him any credit, but the infrastructure bill is very 279 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 5: encouraging it's something that should have happened a million years ago, 280 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 5: and Bertie would have done a better blah blah blah 281 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 5: blah blah. 282 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 3: I would be. 283 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 5: Interested to see if that has any effect on the 284 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 5: ground with voters. I think what a lot of people 285 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 5: voted for in Trump was like the return of manufacturing 286 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 5: on shoring American jobs. 287 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 3: I mean, jobs are a big deal. People like them. 288 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 3: They remember when they had them and they missed them. 289 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 3: Good jobs. 290 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 5: And I think with the investment in infrastructure it's actually 291 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 5: going to it is creating more of those jobs. 292 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 3: We're now seeing a labor shortage and in the. 293 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 5: Hard hats, which are a lot of time excellent jobs 294 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 5: that you can get without. 295 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: You don't have to. 296 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 5: Pay to get into them. It's not like, you know, 297 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 5: you have to have a four year degree. It's skilled labor, 298 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 5: and you're in a union. You can get a pension 299 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 5: and all your benefits. And I think if that shows 300 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 5: any yield in time for a broader public, I don't 301 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 5: see like the resentment, the resentment for the Democratic Party 302 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 5: that really fueled a lot. 303 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: Of Trump voting coming to fruition and she does get 304 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 3: to like I mean, I have no idea. 305 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 5: Man The weird thing is that, you know, again we 306 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 5: all were sort of like freaked out and happened. 307 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 3: We're like, oh, holy shit, it's this crazy, and then you. 308 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 5: Oh, this is just kind of a consistently, like a 309 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 5: consistent trajectory of things getting slightly worse. 310 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: Like this is not a. 311 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 5: Rapid decline compared to Obama. It's not great, and it's 312 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 5: not an improvement. But the strangest thing was that there 313 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 5: wasn't a huge disaster. It was just a little shittier 314 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 5: every day, just like it had been for the past 315 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 5: however many years. 316 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: So that's sort of what you anticipate if we get 317 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: a second Trump term. 318 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 3: I mean I could see it for sure. 319 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 5: It is you know, he doesn't want to get in 320 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 5: strange wars. He always wants to see, like who wins 321 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 5: in the end. He tends to I think most of 322 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 5: spend most of his He spent most of his last 323 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 5: administration doing like, I don't know, castle intrigue, court politics. 324 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 3: He was more obsessed with it was way more obsessed with, 325 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: you know, his. 326 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 5: Own cabinet and hiring and firing people and doing the apprentice. 327 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 3: He wasn't that active of a president. 328 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective because he was obviously incredibly visible, 329 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: like it felt like he was an active president, but 330 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: then not actually that much. I mean, his biggest accomplishment 331 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: was a bunch of tax cuts for rich people, which 332 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: anyway Republican president would basically do. I mean, I guess 333 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: the thing that does make him different is all of 334 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: the insanity around the election and January sixth, and like, 335 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: yeah it was Keithstone, cops, but he legitimately wanted to 336 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: steal the election. 337 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I would say though, but 338 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 5: like he didn't and I don't know, but that The 339 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 5: interesting thing that I saw later after this, during that 340 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 5: January sixth stuff, is they talked to White House Security 341 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 5: and they said a lot of people that were there 342 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 5: were a lot of people that were there January sixth 343 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 5: calling in saying like, hey, I left my purse there. 344 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 5: I was there at January sixth. Could is there a 345 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 5: way I could pick it up? 346 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: Yeah? 347 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 5: And like the head of White House Security was like, 348 00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 5: they literally don't know that what they did was He's like, 349 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 5: you know, these people are not fully in orbit, Like 350 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 5: it's like that they believe that the president told them 351 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 5: to do something, and so that it was allowed that 352 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 5: they did it. It's like it's like the kind of 353 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 5: American mindset when you get like pulled over and you 354 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 5: see those people who are like, actually, I'm a sovereign 355 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 5: citizen and it's like, oh my god, we told you 356 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 5: things work. 357 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 7: Yeah. 358 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 359 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 5: And I think after that one, that's kind of thing 360 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 5: is less likely to happen because it wasn't effective. And two, 361 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 5: I think Trump doesn't like the amount of trouble he's 362 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 5: getting into for yeah, let's say, yeah, uh waving the see. 363 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 4: I actually sort of feel the opposite. 364 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: I feel like once something happens once, it's actually more 365 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: likely to happen again in religure. Wait, yeah, definitely, I've 366 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: sort of like riped the band aid off of oh well, 367 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: that thing is now on the table, that thing is 368 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: now possible. 369 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 3: But like an Overton window thing, yeah exactly. 370 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 5: It did look like they were having fun, but a 371 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 5: lot of them did go to jail. I could see 372 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 5: it also happening in something like not particularly related to Trump. 373 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 5: I don't know if the energy would be behind in particular. 374 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 5: I don't know if he seems to have he doesn't 375 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 5: quite have like the shine for the youth that he 376 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 5: did during the time, you know, the the downwardly mobile 377 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 5: young men who appear to have moved on. But I 378 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 5: mean I could see it around something else, because that 379 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 5: energy is still there, that that restless resentment, no doubt, 380 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 5: that feeling of unfairness, and that mental illness, they're all 381 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 5: still there. 382 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 4: So no doubt, no doubt. 383 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: Well, Amber, I've been really enjoying the book. I think 384 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: you're a fantastic writer. I think your you know, your personality, 385 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: your voice really comes through, and so I encourage people 386 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: to check out the book. It's excellent. Congratulations and thank 387 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: you so much for sharing some of your insights today. 388 00:20:53,400 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me on no more. 389 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 8: University campuses have once again become a lightning rod for 390 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 8: free speech. Last week, three university presidents, Harvard's Claudine Gay, 391 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 8: Penn's Liz McGill, and MIT Sally Kornblooth appeared before Congress 392 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 8: to testify about rising anti semitism on their campuses. 393 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 9: I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews. 394 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 9: Does that constitute bullying? 395 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 3: Harassment? 396 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 7: If it is directed and severer pervasive, it is harassment. 397 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 9: So the answer is yes. 398 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 7: It is a context dependent decision. 399 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 9: Congresswoman, calling for the genocide of Jews does not constitute 400 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 9: bullying and harassment. 401 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: I have not heard calling for the genocide for Jews 402 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 3: on our campus. 403 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 9: But you've heard chance for intifada. 404 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 5: I've heard chance, which can be antisemitic depending on the context. 405 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 7: Anti Semitic rhetoric. When it crosses into conduct that amounts 406 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 7: to bullying, harassment, madation, that is actionable conduct, and we 407 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 7: do take action. 408 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 9: So the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide 409 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 9: of Jews violates Harvard Code of Conduct. 410 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 5: Correct. 411 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 7: Again, it depends on the context. 412 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 8: All three presidents have since face calls for resignation. Many 413 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 8: high profile donors have threatened to pull millions in funding 414 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 8: from these universities. One of these presidents, Liz McGill of 415 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 8: U Penn, has already since resigned over the last few days. 416 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 8: Of these developments have entered the cultural zeitgeist, so much 417 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 8: so to the point that even the likes of Dave 418 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 8: Portnoy have gotten involved tweeting one down, two to go. 419 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 8: Some university faculty have pushed back on such efforts to 420 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 8: censor free speech on campus, one of them being Professor 421 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 8: Walter Johnson of Harvard. 422 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 6: In these past few weeks, I've become wary of my 423 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 6: own words, of speaking, my mind, of being overheard in 424 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 6: a way that I have not been afraid those today's 425 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 6: on the weeks, then the months after nine to eleven, 426 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 6: when I was living in New York and people who 427 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 6: I had fought were my friends literally lost their minds, 428 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 6: their composure, their sense of proportion, and their basic human decency. 429 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 6: And I see that happening again with the ferocity that 430 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 6: has astonished me. I am aware of the irony of 431 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 6: standing before those of you who have been singled out 432 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 6: and targeted, doxed, harassed, and blacklisted to warn you that 433 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 6: the boundaries of what you can safely say are closing. 434 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 8: In so joining us today is Walter Johnson, Professor of 435 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 8: History and African American Studies at Harvard University. Thank you 436 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 8: for being with us today, Professor, it's my pleasure. First question, 437 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 8: what compelled you to make such a public statement regarding 438 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 8: free speech on campus. 439 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 6: I think, in the first instance, it was the palpable 440 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 6: climate of fearfulness among many of my colleagues and many 441 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 6: of my students. I guess I'd have to say I 442 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 6: felt called to speak up. Many were many of the 443 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 6: students were. I felt it was important for somebody on 444 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 6: the faculty to speak up and stand with the students. 445 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 6: I was also, I think, at that moment, aware of 446 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 6: things that later came to light about actual censorship happening 447 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 6: at Harvard Law School, which was where that event took place, 448 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 6: in the case of one student who had been involved 449 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 6: in a protest and had the university president had issued 450 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 6: a statement condemning the phrase from the river to the sea. 451 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 6: So I think in some sense that was an early 452 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 6: response to a climate of intimidation and fear that I 453 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 6: feel like has only become, has only intensified in the meantime. 454 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 8: You mentioned the phrase from the river to the sea. Now, 455 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 8: phrase like that that could mean different things to different 456 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 8: groups of people. Some like Congresswoman Rashida to Leib say 457 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 8: it's a quote aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and 458 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 8: peaceful co existence. Other groups like the ADL deem it 459 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 8: to be a call for ethnic cleansing against Israeli Jews. 460 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 8: For such phrases like this, how can we consistently apply 461 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 8: the First Amendment right to free speech? 462 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 6: What you said is exactly right. I mean, you said 463 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 6: that it's been read to imply different things. I don't 464 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 6: think that within that broad spectrum there's a there's a 465 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 6: lot of room for contestation and debate. So what the letter, 466 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 6: what the you know, one of the letters, the many 467 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 6: letters that I've been involved in over the past couple 468 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 6: of weeks, that was, well, the university needs to slow down. 469 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 6: The university needs to slow down, not to condemn statements, 470 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 6: but to encourage investigation and debate. That's what a university 471 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 6: should do. And I think again that was you know, 472 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 6: I don't want to get too braggy about it, but 473 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 6: that was pressure right because within a week it comes 474 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 6: out that this, you know, comes into general knowledge. There 475 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 6: were specialists who knew this, but this very statement appears, 476 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 6: is very phrase. It appears in the Lacude founding platform. 477 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 6: So clearly it's history and multiple meanings need to be discussed. 478 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 6: It can't simply be condemned. 479 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 8: Yeah, I want to get your perspective more on what's 480 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 8: going on at the universities. The fallout of Harvard's clouding 481 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 8: Gay pens Liz McGill and MIT Sally Cornbluoth collectively. In 482 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 8: the mainstream media, their testimony has been seen as many 483 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 8: as a disaster. All three presidents have since faced calls 484 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 8: for their resignation, major donors threatening to withhold millions of 485 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 8: dollars in donations pens. Liz McGill has already since resigned. 486 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 8: So what do you think does this set the right 487 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 8: precedent for the future of university discourse? 488 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 6: So I think that that you know to me that 489 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 6: hearing looked McCarthy. I I do not think that a 490 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 6: congressional investigation of words said on a college campus, in 491 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,199 Speaker 6: which college presidents are asked whether or not they believe 492 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 6: in the principal values of another country, is an appropriate 493 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 6: mechanism of appropriate usage of state power. I think it's 494 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 6: a dangerous usage of state power. Now I will say this, 495 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 6: and I'll say this straight up. I think that there 496 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 6: has been speech made on the Harvard campus that approached 497 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 6: the advocacy of genocide. Because there was an affiliate of 498 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 6: the university who stood in Harvard Yard and implied that 499 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 6: students at Harvard supported terrorism and said the words those 500 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 6: who justify terrorism are lower than animals. I believe that 501 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 6: was an episode of genocidal speech I made on the 502 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 6: campus of Harvard University. And as far as I know, 503 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 6: there's been no coverage outside of a brief mention in 504 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 6: the Harvard crimson of that, there's certainly not been a 505 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 6: congressional investigation of that, and as far as I know, 506 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 6: that individual has not been subjected to university discipline. So again, 507 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 6: I think that you know. 508 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 10: Part of what's happening is we're living in a shadow 509 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 10: world where there is an inordinate amount of attention paid 510 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 10: to certain types of speech, very little attention of the 511 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 10: same sort of attention being applied to other types of 512 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 10: speech at the very same. 513 00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 6: Moment that there is an actual material, real life mass 514 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 6: murder removal, not bad genocide, not to mention the history 515 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 6: of the last seventy five years. 516 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 8: Yeah, I want to ask I want to It's a 517 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 8: slight pive, but I want to ask you about the 518 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 8: consistency of free speech on campus because some have likened 519 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 8: Harvard other elite university's newfound commitment to free speech as 520 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 8: somewhat inconsistent. They're insinuating this kind of anti semitism is 521 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 8: a factor in this. People have brought up some past 522 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 8: examples of universities having no problems silencing those who were 523 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 8: critical of say, BLM, d I, LGBGQ ideology. So is 524 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 8: there Is it fair to say that there is a 525 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 8: level of hypocrisies that that underlies these rationalizations? Could there 526 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 8: be something more sinister, like like I just alluded to. 527 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 8: Is this criticism fair? 528 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 6: I mean, I mean, I think that's an important question. 529 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 6: I think it's an important question to answer forthrightly. I 530 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 6: believe in the first instance, that the joining of the 531 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 6: attack on DEI on diversity, equity and inclusion to the 532 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 6: attack on anti Zionist speech or even speech that is 533 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 6: critical of Israel is bailful and dangerous. Okay, But I 534 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 6: am myself someone who thinks that the regulation of speech 535 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 6: and civility on college campuses has come at this point 536 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 6: to serve the universities as an alibi, universities like my university, 537 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 6: as an alibi for the sorts of inequality that they 538 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 6: represent and perpetuate. And so I think in a way 539 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 6: that the weaponization of the terms of diversity, equity, and 540 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 6: inclusion is related to the way that those terms themselves 541 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 6: have become unmoored from a larger understanding of justice. 542 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 8: Yeah, last question for you is how do we Because 543 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 8: it seems to be free speech is kind of one 544 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 8: of those things. To your point, people love free speech 545 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 8: if they agree with that speech, and they will silent 546 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 8: speech that they don't agree with. So, moving forward, how 547 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 8: do we consistently apply free speech? 548 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean again, I'm not sure there's a consistent application, 549 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 6: because I think it's always going to be a field 550 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 6: of political context. And so then the focus for me 551 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 6: is on, well, how do we imagine ourselves speaking in 552 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 6: a way that is in insistently honest and also generous, 553 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 6: And so for me, that does not involve the sort 554 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 6: of activity that I think has been you know, for 555 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 6: quite a while now, we've been living in a world 556 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 6: where the words free speech on campuses are associated with 557 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 6: the rights and they are generally performed through acts of provocation. Right, Well, 558 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 6: I think that this campus is not ideologically diverse, and 559 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 6: so I'm going to bring in an extreme speaker who's 560 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 6: bound to offend. Well, what if we imagine our commitment 561 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 6: to free speech, like to the freedom part. What if 562 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 6: we imagine it is not something that's defined by our 563 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 6: ability that were allowed to do harm with our words. 564 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 6: What if we imagine it as trying to to to 565 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 6: really speak honestly, to really pursue justice. That's what I've 566 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 6: been you know, thinking and that's that's not to say 567 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 6: that that that doesn't you know, plenty of that is 568 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 6: going to involve saying things that make other people unhappy 569 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 6: or uncomfortable. Say that the state of Israel is in 570 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 6: apartheid state, which I think it is right. But I 571 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,840 Speaker 6: don't say that because I want to do harm. I'm 572 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 6: not trying to prove some kind of point by that. 573 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 6: I'm not trying to prove I'm allowed to say that. 574 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 6: I say that because I think it's true. And what 575 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 6: if we just hold ourselves to that standard. I think 576 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 6: that that would be you know that that's the world 577 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 6: that I want to live in, and that's the world 578 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 6: that I think is is under threat from any any 579 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 6: variety of directions. And you know, to come back to 580 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 6: your first question, I guess that's why I felt compelled 581 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 6: to just speak out about any of this in the 582 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 6: first place. 583 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 8: Well, thank you, professor. This has been incredibly insightful. Thank 584 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 8: you for your time today. This continues on, I'm sure 585 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,360 Speaker 8: it will. We hope to have you back in the future. 586 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 8: Appreciate your time.