1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:36,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. When I was told you're guilty and you're sentenced 2 00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 1: to twenty six years, I mean everything I thought to 3 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:44,796 Speaker 1: be true about the world collapsed in on itself and 4 00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:50,676 Speaker 1: I had this kind of quick an adaptation in my 5 00:00:50,756 --> 00:00:55,316 Speaker 1: mind where I thought, oh, I'm not this lost tourist 6 00:00:55,836 --> 00:00:59,916 Speaker 1: who's waiting to go home. I am a prisoner. Like 7 00:00:59,996 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: this isn't just a thing that is happening to me. 8 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:05,676 Speaker 1: This is my life, and whether or not it's based 9 00:01:05,716 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: in truth, this defines me. I've just been defined killer. 10 00:01:10,596 --> 00:01:13,796 Speaker 1: That's Amanda Knox describing the moment when an Italian court 11 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:16,876 Speaker 1: found her guilty of a heinous crime she did not commit, 12 00:01:17,436 --> 00:01:20,996 Speaker 1: the murder of her roommate, Meredith Kircher. Amanda was just 13 00:01:21,116 --> 00:01:24,396 Speaker 1: twenty years old when this all unfolded. She spent four 14 00:01:24,516 --> 00:01:27,796 Speaker 1: years in an Italian prison before she was finally exonerated 15 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:31,796 Speaker 1: and allowed to return home to America, but the reality 16 00:01:31,836 --> 00:01:34,356 Speaker 1: of what she faced upon her return was not at 17 00:01:34,396 --> 00:01:38,396 Speaker 1: all what she expected. When I first came home, I 18 00:01:38,596 --> 00:01:41,236 Speaker 1: thought that I was going to get to have the 19 00:01:41,396 --> 00:01:47,076 Speaker 1: life that I had left behind back that once this 20 00:01:47,196 --> 00:01:49,516 Speaker 1: is all worked out and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, 21 00:01:49,676 --> 00:01:52,076 Speaker 1: then I get to go back to my life that 22 00:01:52,396 --> 00:01:56,476 Speaker 1: I lost that was on pause, and I realized that 23 00:01:56,476 --> 00:02:02,756 Speaker 1: that life didn't exist anymore. On today's episode, what happens 24 00:02:02,796 --> 00:02:07,916 Speaker 1: when the world simply won't let you move on? I'm 25 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:11,156 Speaker 1: Maya Shunker. This is a slight change of plans, a 26 00:02:11,236 --> 00:02:13,956 Speaker 1: show about who we are and who we become in 27 00:02:13,996 --> 00:02:20,276 Speaker 1: the face of a big change, you know, to begin 28 00:02:20,316 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: with it, it's so interesting. Typically for a guest with 29 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:25,436 Speaker 1: your story, you know, I would do the work of 30 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:28,196 Speaker 1: trying to figure out, Okay, how do I summarize for 31 00:02:28,236 --> 00:02:31,116 Speaker 1: the listener what it is that this person has gone through. 32 00:02:31,996 --> 00:02:34,556 Speaker 1: But because so many people have tried to appropriate your 33 00:02:34,596 --> 00:02:36,796 Speaker 1: story over the years, I don't want to do that. 34 00:02:37,316 --> 00:02:40,196 Speaker 1: I want this, Amanda. I want to hear your story 35 00:02:40,316 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 1: in your words, absolutely, and thank you for that. When 36 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:46,516 Speaker 1: I was twenty years old, I decided that I wanted 37 00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:49,556 Speaker 1: to study abroad. I ended up choosing a program and 38 00:02:49,556 --> 00:02:54,676 Speaker 1: a really small, ancient city in the middle of Italy 39 00:02:54,796 --> 00:03:00,596 Speaker 1: called Perusia. I moved into an apartment in a small 40 00:03:00,636 --> 00:03:04,756 Speaker 1: house overlooking this beautiful valley with three other young women, 41 00:03:05,716 --> 00:03:09,996 Speaker 1: two Italian girls and a British stud who was just 42 00:03:10,116 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 1: like a year older. Than me named Meredith, and the 43 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:17,836 Speaker 1: day after Halloween, on November first, I was hanging out 44 00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:23,716 Speaker 1: with my new like love fling of five days, Rafaeli Solecho, 45 00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:28,876 Speaker 1: and Meredith was home alone and a local burglar named 46 00:03:28,956 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 1: Rudy Giday broke into our home and raped and murdered 47 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:38,436 Speaker 1: her and then fled the country. And I discovered all 48 00:03:38,436 --> 00:03:40,316 Speaker 1: of this by coming home the next day to take 49 00:03:40,356 --> 00:03:43,756 Speaker 1: a shower and noticing that our home was in disarray. 50 00:03:44,316 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 1: I had I brought Raphaeli over, we called the police together. 51 00:03:48,316 --> 00:03:52,076 Speaker 1: The police came and discovered the crime scene, meredith body, 52 00:03:52,116 --> 00:03:55,516 Speaker 1: which fortunately I never had to see in person, but 53 00:03:55,676 --> 00:04:01,156 Speaker 1: unfortunately there was a lot of frantic energy, a lot 54 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:04,916 Speaker 1: of confusion, a lot of fear in those opening. You know. 55 00:04:05,676 --> 00:04:09,236 Speaker 1: Days after the murder was discovered, it was immediately of 56 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 1: tremendous public interest. International media was descending upon Perugia, talking 57 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:18,916 Speaker 1: to any single person that they possibly could. Meanwhile, I'm 58 00:04:18,956 --> 00:04:21,356 Speaker 1: spending hours and hours and hours at the police station 59 00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: trying to help the police uncover what happened to my friend. 60 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:30,596 Speaker 1: And I spent about fifty three hours over five days 61 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 1: in that police office, being questioned over and over and 62 00:04:34,596 --> 00:04:37,556 Speaker 1: over again, telling them the same story that I've been 63 00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 1: telling them what happened that night as far as I knew, 64 00:04:40,636 --> 00:04:42,716 Speaker 1: and they were telling me that I was wrong, that 65 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:48,036 Speaker 1: everything that I remembered was wrong, that I was traumatized, 66 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 1: and that my freedom and my access to my family 67 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:56,916 Speaker 1: depended upon me remembering something that I couldn't remember. And 68 00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:01,996 Speaker 1: I was alone, I was speaking of foreign language, I 69 00:05:02,036 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 1: was without a lawyer. I was asking for my mom, 70 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:08,876 Speaker 1: I was asking for any help whatsoever, and instead I 71 00:05:08,876 --> 00:05:12,796 Speaker 1: got slapped and screamed at four hours until I was 72 00:05:12,876 --> 00:05:17,356 Speaker 1: willing to sign a statement that they wrote implicating my 73 00:05:17,476 --> 00:05:20,876 Speaker 1: boss Patrick, the Mumba. I caved. It was the only 74 00:05:20,916 --> 00:05:22,996 Speaker 1: thing that made sense to me anymore. I started to 75 00:05:23,036 --> 00:05:28,556 Speaker 1: doubt my own sanity, and I signed those papers and 76 00:05:29,316 --> 00:05:33,276 Speaker 1: they immediately ran off to go arrest my boss Patrick, 77 00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:37,836 Speaker 1: and I was finally left alone to breathe and think 78 00:05:38,276 --> 00:05:44,916 Speaker 1: straight after hours of horrible treatment, and I immediately recanted. 79 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:48,476 Speaker 1: I told them, oh my god, there's a huge mistake. 80 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:51,076 Speaker 1: I was under a lot of pressure. I don't actually 81 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:55,836 Speaker 1: remember witnessing any murder whatsoever. Like they wouldn't listen to me. 82 00:05:55,996 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 1: They told me that with time, my memories would come 83 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:02,396 Speaker 1: back and that I just needed to be quiet, and like, 84 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:04,636 Speaker 1: just a few days later, I was brought before a 85 00:06:04,716 --> 00:06:09,236 Speaker 1: judge and finally finally told you are under investigation for 86 00:06:09,276 --> 00:06:14,236 Speaker 1: the murder of Meredith Kirture. So there's a few critical 87 00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:17,556 Speaker 1: moments in what you just described that I'm interested to 88 00:06:17,596 --> 00:06:21,076 Speaker 1: hear more about, in particular what your psychology was like 89 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: at the time, as well as how you might think 90 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:28,196 Speaker 1: differently about that experience now. And the first is, you know, 91 00:06:28,196 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 1: when you were trying to be helpful to the police 92 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:34,636 Speaker 1: right to help identify who the murderer was, they began 93 00:06:34,756 --> 00:06:39,476 Speaker 1: using aggressive interrogation tactics on you. As you said, they 94 00:06:39,636 --> 00:06:42,956 Speaker 1: accused you of having amnesia. It led you to engage 95 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 1: in false confessions. And I can only imagine how traumatizing 96 00:06:48,596 --> 00:06:51,676 Speaker 1: it is to go through something like that, especially when 97 00:06:51,676 --> 00:06:55,476 Speaker 1: you don't understand that the human mind is in fact 98 00:06:55,516 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 1: capable of such things, right. I think it is actually 99 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:01,916 Speaker 1: really hard for most people to appreciate the conditions under 100 00:07:01,956 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 1: which they would be likely to generate false memories or 101 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:09,716 Speaker 1: false confessions. And I think the reason why I feel 102 00:07:09,716 --> 00:07:11,756 Speaker 1: like that's this is such an important part of your 103 00:07:11,796 --> 00:07:16,316 Speaker 1: story to bring to light is that when when you 104 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:20,116 Speaker 1: are made to question your own sanity, your own ability 105 00:07:20,316 --> 00:07:26,956 Speaker 1: to accurately reason about the world around you. That is damaging. 106 00:07:27,036 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 1: That puts you in a state where I imagine it's 107 00:07:30,436 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: easy to feel broken because you start asking yourself questions 108 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: like how how was I capable of that? How was 109 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:41,956 Speaker 1: I capable of implicating this totally innocent person? Yeah? Absolutely, um, 110 00:07:41,996 --> 00:07:46,276 Speaker 1: And that's actually a really interesting way of framing that question, 111 00:07:46,356 --> 00:07:50,916 Speaker 1: because of course, going into an interrogation room, you don't 112 00:07:50,956 --> 00:07:54,716 Speaker 1: think I would ever say anything that would that I 113 00:07:54,756 --> 00:07:57,116 Speaker 1: don't know to be true, and that would that would 114 00:07:57,156 --> 00:08:00,276 Speaker 1: implicate me or not be to like you know, that 115 00:08:00,316 --> 00:08:03,396 Speaker 1: could be compromising to oneself, Like that's that is it's 116 00:08:03,436 --> 00:08:07,516 Speaker 1: so counterintuitive. I didn't know that this was possible. I 117 00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:09,876 Speaker 1: didn't even know the police could lie to you like 118 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:12,076 Speaker 1: I did. I just there was so much I didn't know, 119 00:08:12,636 --> 00:08:17,516 Speaker 1: and I therefore, like my instinct when all of this 120 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:21,836 Speaker 1: became a catastrophe was to blame myself because I didn't 121 00:08:21,836 --> 00:08:24,356 Speaker 1: know else who else to blame. I didn't know that 122 00:08:24,396 --> 00:08:29,516 Speaker 1: there was a specific police interrogation technique designed to break 123 00:08:29,556 --> 00:08:33,356 Speaker 1: down people to just admit to something. And it wasn't 124 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:39,836 Speaker 1: until a cognitive scientist who studies false confessions reached out 125 00:08:39,876 --> 00:08:43,036 Speaker 1: to me, and it was while I was still in prison, 126 00:08:43,156 --> 00:08:46,436 Speaker 1: it was after I had been convicted. He didn't share 127 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 1: any research with me at first. He just said, please 128 00:08:48,756 --> 00:08:52,316 Speaker 1: describe everything you can possibly remember about your interrogation and 129 00:08:52,356 --> 00:08:54,636 Speaker 1: send it to me. So I did, and it was 130 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 1: it was hard even doing that because it was the 131 00:08:58,196 --> 00:09:01,236 Speaker 1: scariest moment of my life, the most confusing moment of 132 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: my life, and it's the moment of my life that 133 00:09:03,716 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: I felt the most shame about because I just I 134 00:09:07,516 --> 00:09:12,076 Speaker 1: couldn't explain even to myself why it happened. I honestly couldn't. 135 00:09:12,076 --> 00:09:13,956 Speaker 1: I just felt like there was something wrong with me, 136 00:09:13,996 --> 00:09:15,516 Speaker 1: and I was the only one in the world that 137 00:09:15,636 --> 00:09:17,836 Speaker 1: had that had ever happened too, as far as I knew, 138 00:09:17,956 --> 00:09:20,916 Speaker 1: And of course everyone was judging me as a bad 139 00:09:20,916 --> 00:09:25,076 Speaker 1: person because of it. And then he responded by sending 140 00:09:25,196 --> 00:09:29,556 Speaker 1: me back his research, and his research showed that the 141 00:09:29,716 --> 00:09:33,956 Speaker 1: exact way that they had broken me down was just 142 00:09:34,116 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 1: like you know, point for point, just how you break 143 00:09:38,556 --> 00:09:47,116 Speaker 1: down innocent people. And that moment of relief and self 144 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:51,556 Speaker 1: forgiveness was tremendous for me because it was at that 145 00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:56,636 Speaker 1: point that I really really understood that my wrongful conviction 146 00:09:56,796 --> 00:09:59,956 Speaker 1: wasn't really my fault, that I had been set up, 147 00:10:00,636 --> 00:10:05,996 Speaker 1: and that there were a lot of forces at play, 148 00:10:06,036 --> 00:10:08,196 Speaker 1: a lot of people who had, you know, a ton 149 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:11,076 Speaker 1: of agency in this equation, and I was the least 150 00:10:11,116 --> 00:10:14,516 Speaker 1: among them. I was at the mercy of people who 151 00:10:14,596 --> 00:10:19,996 Speaker 1: were not just taking advantage of me, but actively trying 152 00:10:19,996 --> 00:10:24,676 Speaker 1: to destroy my life. Yeah. I like to talk for 153 00:10:24,716 --> 00:10:27,036 Speaker 1: a bit about the time that you spent in prison, 154 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:30,956 Speaker 1: because you spent four years in full, but at one 155 00:10:31,036 --> 00:10:34,516 Speaker 1: point you were sentenced to twenty six years in prison. Yes, 156 00:10:34,836 --> 00:10:39,116 Speaker 1: and as an early twenty something, twenty six years is 157 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:43,076 Speaker 1: like your entire freaking life. It is your entire freaking life. Yes, 158 00:10:43,956 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: I want to know what was your relationship with Hope 159 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:50,716 Speaker 1: during your time in prison, And I'm just curious if 160 00:10:50,716 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 1: you can dig into that a bit. Yeah, absolutely so. 161 00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:58,836 Speaker 1: And it's interesting how I had like this tremendous shift 162 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:01,836 Speaker 1: happen because the first two years, while I was still 163 00:11:01,836 --> 00:11:03,996 Speaker 1: on trial and believing that all of this was just 164 00:11:04,276 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 1: a huge out of proportion misunderstanding, I was convinced that 165 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:12,956 Speaker 1: I was going to eventually be going home. And there 166 00:11:12,956 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 1: were moments in that time where I was just like, oh, 167 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:19,716 Speaker 1: my god, you know, I've been here so long, Like 168 00:11:19,756 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 1: I missed my twenty first birthday that I you know, 169 00:11:22,796 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 1: I had always thought, Oh I would go and have 170 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 1: a drink with my dad. Nope, that didn't happen. So 171 00:11:29,396 --> 00:11:32,796 Speaker 1: feeling like I was losing really important parts of my life, 172 00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: but ultimately thinking this is a really really long nightmare 173 00:11:37,476 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 1: that does have an expiration date, and that expiration date 174 00:11:40,676 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: is the verdict. And my family, especially my mom, very 175 00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:46,676 Speaker 1: much like that was sort of our mantra that there's 176 00:11:46,716 --> 00:11:50,116 Speaker 1: a light at the end of this very long dark tunnel. 177 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:57,196 Speaker 1: And when I then was told you're guilty and you're 178 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:01,876 Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty six years, I mean everything I thought 179 00:12:01,876 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 1: to be true about the world collapsed in on itself. 180 00:12:05,876 --> 00:12:09,236 Speaker 1: I very much felt like the ground beneath me had 181 00:12:09,236 --> 00:12:11,356 Speaker 1: fallen away and I had nothing to stand on. I 182 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:15,156 Speaker 1: literally collapsed between you know, my attorneys, and then the 183 00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:17,156 Speaker 1: guards sort of had to carry me out of this 184 00:12:17,236 --> 00:12:21,596 Speaker 1: courtroom where I'm hysterical, like unable to believe what is happening. 185 00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:27,396 Speaker 1: And I had this very very i mean kind of 186 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 1: quick an adaptation in my mind where I thought, oh, 187 00:12:33,516 --> 00:12:37,716 Speaker 1: I'm not this lost tourist who's waiting to go home. 188 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:42,076 Speaker 1: I am a prisoner, Like this isn't just a thing 189 00:12:42,116 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 1: that is happening to me. This is my life. This 190 00:12:44,996 --> 00:12:47,716 Speaker 1: is my life now, and whether or not it's based 191 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:51,596 Speaker 1: in truth, this defines me. I've just been defined a killer, 192 00:12:52,076 --> 00:12:54,996 Speaker 1: and I have just been told the only place that 193 00:12:55,076 --> 00:12:59,276 Speaker 1: you belong is behind bars for the majority of your life. 194 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:02,756 Speaker 1: And all those things that you thought that you would 195 00:13:02,796 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 1: get to have in your life, a family, a career, 196 00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:10,436 Speaker 1: the opportunity to be with your family and and watch 197 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:13,476 Speaker 1: your nephews grow and your kids grow, and all of 198 00:13:13,476 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 1: these things that I thought were going to be a 199 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:18,236 Speaker 1: part of my life were not a part of my life. 200 00:13:18,436 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: That was never going to be a part of my life. 201 00:13:21,076 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 1: And and what is my life? Then? Who am? I? 202 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:33,436 Speaker 1: And my mom had a very different relationship with Hope 203 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:37,916 Speaker 1: than I did. She didn't have that shift happen when 204 00:13:37,916 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 1: I was convicted. She looked at this and I think 205 00:13:40,436 --> 00:13:43,196 Speaker 1: just out of desperation, like, oh, the tunnel is just 206 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,196 Speaker 1: longer than we thought it was. But you are going 207 00:13:46,236 --> 00:13:48,196 Speaker 1: to get out. You are going to be found innocent, 208 00:13:48,236 --> 00:13:50,916 Speaker 1: You are going to be vindicated. You are innocent. You're 209 00:13:50,956 --> 00:13:54,396 Speaker 1: my daughter, You're going to come home. And after my conviction, 210 00:13:54,516 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure about that anymore, like I didn't have 211 00:13:57,716 --> 00:14:02,396 Speaker 1: any reason to believe that anymore. And I ended up 212 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:05,716 Speaker 1: having really really difficult conversations with her where I said, well, 213 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:08,676 Speaker 1: I hope that happens, Mom, but if it doesn't, I 214 00:14:08,716 --> 00:14:13,116 Speaker 1: hope that I can achieve this goal in the prison environment. 215 00:14:13,276 --> 00:14:15,756 Speaker 1: Or I hope that one day I'll be able to, 216 00:14:15,876 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 1: you know, write about my experience so that i'm you know, 217 00:14:19,076 --> 00:14:23,716 Speaker 1: at least one voice voicing my experience in this huge, 218 00:14:23,756 --> 00:14:26,356 Speaker 1: you know, world of voices who are calling me a murderer, 219 00:14:27,116 --> 00:14:30,036 Speaker 1: and maybe one day it'll matter. I hope that I 220 00:14:30,276 --> 00:14:32,356 Speaker 1: stay healthy. I hope that I don't get sick like 221 00:14:32,436 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 1: all these things. And my mom viewed that as a 222 00:14:38,236 --> 00:14:41,396 Speaker 1: kind of mental giving up, like I had given up 223 00:14:41,436 --> 00:14:44,236 Speaker 1: on the fight for my innocence, and I hadn't. It's 224 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: just that I had to live. It was very apparent 225 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: to me that I was not. Like at the end 226 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 1: of the day, every day I went back to my cell, 227 00:14:55,196 --> 00:15:00,476 Speaker 1: back to my cot and that's where I stayed. Amana, 228 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 1: how do you get through those days? I mean, you said, 229 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 1: you're you're having to confront this idea of inhabiting this 230 00:15:08,316 --> 00:15:11,276 Speaker 1: new identity, this identity that's been thrust upon you, which 231 00:15:11,316 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: is prisoner, and it's it's been unjustifiably thrust upon you. Well, um, 232 00:15:16,556 --> 00:15:20,036 Speaker 1: the first step was acknowledging that this is a community, 233 00:15:20,516 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 1: but it is full of a lot of a lot 234 00:15:23,716 --> 00:15:27,876 Speaker 1: of human suffering and a lot of humanity. I lived 235 00:15:27,916 --> 00:15:32,836 Speaker 1: alongside people who had done really horrible things, and these 236 00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 1: were my people, I guess is a way of saying 237 00:15:36,836 --> 00:15:39,796 Speaker 1: it like this, This was my community, whether I liked 238 00:15:39,796 --> 00:15:44,196 Speaker 1: it or not. And I started to realize that I 239 00:15:44,276 --> 00:15:48,516 Speaker 1: wasn't just sort of a separate or a part entity 240 00:15:48,556 --> 00:15:51,756 Speaker 1: of it. I was an integral entity in that community. 241 00:15:52,276 --> 00:15:55,516 Speaker 1: And I started to think about what is my role 242 00:15:55,636 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 1: in it? What can what can I do? What is 243 00:15:59,716 --> 00:16:02,956 Speaker 1: the best thing that I can do in that space? 244 00:16:03,356 --> 00:16:05,916 Speaker 1: And so I ended up spending a lot of time 245 00:16:06,356 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: helping people write letters. Another job was simply acting as translator. 246 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:14,476 Speaker 1: There was no translator available to any of the prisoners, 247 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 1: so any prisoners who didn't speak Italian had no way 248 00:16:18,316 --> 00:16:22,636 Speaker 1: of knowing what court documents they were signing, or how 249 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:25,396 Speaker 1: to tell the doctor that they weren't feeling well, and 250 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:29,756 Speaker 1: so I was constantly called in to help other prisoners 251 00:16:30,196 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 1: understand what was happening and translating for them. What was 252 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:39,356 Speaker 1: your contact with the outside world like during this time? 253 00:16:39,396 --> 00:16:44,236 Speaker 1: I mean, did you have family and friends, emotional psychological 254 00:16:44,276 --> 00:16:48,596 Speaker 1: support helping to ground you in your new reality. So 255 00:16:48,796 --> 00:16:51,756 Speaker 1: the thing that was the hardest for my family was, 256 00:16:51,796 --> 00:16:54,436 Speaker 1: of course that they at a certain point they couldn't 257 00:16:54,436 --> 00:16:57,636 Speaker 1: hold my hand right like at the end of a visitation. 258 00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:01,876 Speaker 1: They went one way and I went another. And I 259 00:17:02,076 --> 00:17:05,236 Speaker 1: know that like if my mom could have traded places 260 00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:08,196 Speaker 1: with me, she would have in a second, but she couldn't. 261 00:17:09,316 --> 00:17:12,076 Speaker 1: All they could do was try to remind me that 262 00:17:12,196 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 1: I didn't belong there, that I had a home and 263 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:17,516 Speaker 1: I had a life, and I had people who cared 264 00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:21,276 Speaker 1: about me waiting for me. So I had one ten 265 00:17:21,316 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 1: minute phone call a week. Every every week, my family 266 00:17:24,676 --> 00:17:27,236 Speaker 1: and friends piled into my mom's house for a six 267 00:17:27,276 --> 00:17:30,956 Speaker 1: am ten minute phone call just to hear my voice 268 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:33,636 Speaker 1: and let me know that they were they remembered me 269 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:39,556 Speaker 1: and that they cared about me. And one day I 270 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:43,116 Speaker 1: was waiting at my cell door like usual, because I 271 00:17:43,196 --> 00:17:45,636 Speaker 1: knew the exact time that I would go and have 272 00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: my call and the guard didn't come, and I called 273 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:59,996 Speaker 1: out a gente la teta guard guard my phone call 274 00:18:00,676 --> 00:18:04,796 Speaker 1: and I called again, No one answered. I called again, 275 00:18:05,516 --> 00:18:08,756 Speaker 1: No one answered. I spent a good half an hour 276 00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:15,676 Speaker 1: getting more and more anxious and miserable and desperate and 277 00:18:16,156 --> 00:18:20,876 Speaker 1: crying and yelling and feeling like a caged animal, until 278 00:18:21,076 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: finally a guard came up and was like, what the 279 00:18:25,036 --> 00:18:27,316 Speaker 1: hell are you screaming about? And I was like, my 280 00:18:27,396 --> 00:18:29,916 Speaker 1: phone call, my phone call? Have I missed my phone call? 281 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:32,716 Speaker 1: And they said, we're not doing phone calls today. We're low, 282 00:18:33,076 --> 00:18:35,876 Speaker 1: we're short staffed, we're not doing phone calls today. They 283 00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:38,676 Speaker 1: just approached me and we're like, what are you crying about? 284 00:18:38,756 --> 00:18:43,236 Speaker 1: Like shut up? And that was one of those moments 285 00:18:43,236 --> 00:18:47,316 Speaker 1: where I felt like, Wow, I am sub human right now, 286 00:18:47,956 --> 00:18:51,596 Speaker 1: Like it didn't even occur to them to tell me. 287 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:54,796 Speaker 1: It didn't occur to them that that would matter to me, 288 00:18:55,596 --> 00:19:00,396 Speaker 1: and it was I had this moment of worry that 289 00:19:01,356 --> 00:19:04,836 Speaker 1: no matter how hard my family and friends tried, our 290 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:10,596 Speaker 1: lives were diverging so drastically that we would become strangers 291 00:19:10,636 --> 00:19:13,916 Speaker 1: to each other despite our best efforts, just because I 292 00:19:13,996 --> 00:19:17,676 Speaker 1: was living such a different existence than they were, and 293 00:19:18,076 --> 00:19:23,676 Speaker 1: my world and my opportunities and the psychological effort that 294 00:19:23,716 --> 00:19:26,436 Speaker 1: I had to put in to deal with the situation 295 00:19:26,476 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 1: that I was in was very different than theirs. Yeah. Yeah, 296 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:36,356 Speaker 1: can you paint the scene for me of the day 297 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:39,396 Speaker 1: that you were acquitted? Yes? What was that day? Like? 298 00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:46,596 Speaker 1: That was a really bizarre day that I'll just have 299 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 1: to describe it to you. So I got up, I 300 00:19:50,356 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 1: got dressed, I did the normal going down, get into 301 00:19:53,076 --> 00:19:55,916 Speaker 1: the prison van. I was brought up into the courtroom. 302 00:19:55,956 --> 00:19:59,036 Speaker 1: Everyone had their final word, and the court was dismissed 303 00:19:59,036 --> 00:20:00,836 Speaker 1: for the day, and I was brought back to the 304 00:20:00,876 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 1: prison and I knew that it was going to take 305 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:07,236 Speaker 1: a long time, that I had several hours ahead of 306 00:20:07,276 --> 00:20:09,956 Speaker 1: me of not knowing what was going to happen. I 307 00:20:10,076 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 1: tried to distract myself in the meantime, and I had 308 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:16,356 Speaker 1: a very hard time of it. And ultimately my relief 309 00:20:16,476 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 1: came when the prison chaplain, who had become a good 310 00:20:20,596 --> 00:20:23,116 Speaker 1: friend of mine despite the fact that I'm actually, you know, 311 00:20:23,436 --> 00:20:28,196 Speaker 1: an atheist, he invited me down into his office like usual, 312 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:33,796 Speaker 1: and we played music together. He had this keyboard and 313 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:37,716 Speaker 1: he taught me how to play and so I started 314 00:20:37,716 --> 00:20:43,156 Speaker 1: playing this song that I had learned, and he surreptitiously 315 00:20:43,196 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 1: took out this tape recorder, which he was absolutely not 316 00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:49,756 Speaker 1: allowed to have, and he was like, I really want 317 00:20:49,756 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: to record you because it's maybe the last time I 318 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:58,116 Speaker 1: hear your voice. So we sang, we played music together. 319 00:20:59,236 --> 00:21:02,436 Speaker 1: At a certain point, I sat down on the couch 320 00:21:02,436 --> 00:21:05,276 Speaker 1: with him, and you know, he was talking to me 321 00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:07,676 Speaker 1: about how I was feeling and if I was afraid. 322 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:10,596 Speaker 1: And eventually I went back to my cell, but I 323 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:14,196 Speaker 1: spent I spent many hours just in the office with him, 324 00:21:14,236 --> 00:21:20,796 Speaker 1: just crying and talking. And then finally in the evening, 325 00:21:22,196 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 1: they brought me back in and hearing him say acquitted 326 00:21:31,036 --> 00:21:40,516 Speaker 1: and that she goes free, I I I broke down 327 00:21:40,556 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: at that moment too, like that I had hoped and 328 00:21:43,596 --> 00:21:45,916 Speaker 1: I was afraid to hope, and so suddenly this hope 329 00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:49,356 Speaker 1: was alive for me again. Suddenly I was like, if 330 00:21:49,396 --> 00:21:51,636 Speaker 1: I'm in this dark tunnel and I've closed my eyes 331 00:21:51,716 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 1: to the light that is about to hit me, I 332 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:58,636 Speaker 1: was suddenly just like flooded with light, and I collapsed again, 333 00:21:58,756 --> 00:22:02,516 Speaker 1: just hysterical, just crying, crying, crying, and to such a 334 00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:07,396 Speaker 1: degree that the guards who were with me. They thought 335 00:22:07,436 --> 00:22:10,116 Speaker 1: that I had misunderstood the verse. They thought that I 336 00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:12,796 Speaker 1: had heard guilty, when in fact I had heard innocence. 337 00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:14,476 Speaker 1: So they were trying to tell me, no, it's okay, 338 00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:17,516 Speaker 1: you won, you won, and I was just like I know, 339 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 1: I know. And then they brought me back to the 340 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:23,516 Speaker 1: prison to gather my things, but not in a prison van. 341 00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 1: They put me in a police car where I could 342 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:31,196 Speaker 1: actually look out the windows and like a person again. 343 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:36,356 Speaker 1: And as I got back to the prison, like everyone 344 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:38,716 Speaker 1: was looking out their windows waiting to see it, and 345 00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:42,796 Speaker 1: everyone started banging pots and pans and screaming their heads off, 346 00:22:43,196 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 1: just Liberta. And then it was a whole high speed 347 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 1: chase out of the prison to get to Rome, to 348 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: where my family was, to a secret location. It was 349 00:22:55,796 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 1: it was very, very the most Jason Bourne scenario that 350 00:22:59,876 --> 00:23:06,156 Speaker 1: I've ever been in. We'll be back in a moment. 351 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:20,316 Speaker 1: With a slight change of plans. After spending four years 352 00:23:20,356 --> 00:23:23,596 Speaker 1: behind bars for a crime she didn't commit, Amanda Knox 353 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 1: was finally exonerated and she soon headed back home to America. 354 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:32,596 Speaker 1: I was afraid to go to sleep, worried that it 355 00:23:32,596 --> 00:23:34,796 Speaker 1: would mean that I would actually wake up in prison, 356 00:23:36,076 --> 00:23:38,076 Speaker 1: like I had that moment where I was just trying 357 00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 1: to stay awake as long as I could because I 358 00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 1: was like, is this the dream? Am I just having 359 00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:47,556 Speaker 1: the most vivid dream of my life? Or is this real? 360 00:23:49,276 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: And when I first came home, I thought that I 361 00:23:54,316 --> 00:23:57,876 Speaker 1: was going to get to have the life that I 362 00:23:57,876 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: had left behind back I thought that, you know, I 363 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:07,036 Speaker 1: was under that same misconception that once this is all 364 00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:10,076 Speaker 1: worked out and everyone agrees that I'm innocent, then I 365 00:24:10,236 --> 00:24:12,636 Speaker 1: get to go back to being me. I get to 366 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 1: go back to my life that I lost that was 367 00:24:15,396 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 1: on pause, and I slowly realized. I realized that that 368 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:25,196 Speaker 1: life didn't exist anymore. And the reason I knew it 369 00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:28,196 Speaker 1: didn't exist anymore is because I couldn't go out of 370 00:24:28,236 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 1: my apartment building without you know, paparazzi following me to school, 371 00:24:33,356 --> 00:24:36,356 Speaker 1: and I couldn't. But even beyond that, like I also 372 00:24:36,396 --> 00:24:40,716 Speaker 1: couldn't meet people who hadn't heard of me before, like 373 00:24:41,396 --> 00:24:44,116 Speaker 1: you know, people in my classes who were taking pictures 374 00:24:44,156 --> 00:24:48,356 Speaker 1: of me and posting them to social media and saying like, 375 00:24:48,396 --> 00:24:50,236 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm in you know, look who's in 376 00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:54,476 Speaker 1: my class and the murderer, you know, so I knew that. 377 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: I slowly realized and came to grips with the fact 378 00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:03,516 Speaker 1: that not only was the outside world not going to 379 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:07,156 Speaker 1: let me go back to my life, but also I 380 00:25:07,196 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 1: was living now with experience variances that I couldn't just 381 00:25:10,996 --> 00:25:13,996 Speaker 1: put behind me as if they never happened. Right, I 382 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:16,316 Speaker 1: had lived four years in prison, and I had been 383 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:22,876 Speaker 1: on trial for murder, and that, despite all of my 384 00:25:22,916 --> 00:25:27,196 Speaker 1: best efforts, had left an impression on me. And now 385 00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:31,396 Speaker 1: I was really really sensitive to certain things, like I 386 00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,876 Speaker 1: to this day, I do not I do not farewell 387 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 1: when someone accuses me of something that I didn't do, 388 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:41,956 Speaker 1: even if it's small, because it's just it's it's so 389 00:25:42,036 --> 00:25:48,556 Speaker 1: triggering that I'm very sensitive to it and it hurts 390 00:25:48,596 --> 00:25:57,476 Speaker 1: a lot. So I had to come to an understanding 391 00:25:57,516 --> 00:26:01,116 Speaker 1: that the world was not the same place for me anymore. 392 00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,196 Speaker 1: My role in it was not what I thought it 393 00:26:04,236 --> 00:26:06,916 Speaker 1: could be, and I had to figure out what was 394 00:26:06,956 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 1: the best thing that I can do and try to 395 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:12,956 Speaker 1: do it despite the fact that I also knew that 396 00:26:12,996 --> 00:26:16,636 Speaker 1: there were legions of people rooting against me, hoping that 397 00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:22,196 Speaker 1: I would live up to the Foxynoxi narrative that I 398 00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 1: would be just as bad as everyone thought I would be. 399 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:28,036 Speaker 1: And you are also put back on trial, right, which 400 00:26:28,076 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 1: compounds the narrative that people want out of you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 401 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 1: And when the Supreme Court in Italy overturned my acquittal, 402 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:40,876 Speaker 1: first of all, I didn't even realize that that was 403 00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:45,796 Speaker 1: possible because it so goes it goes against what we 404 00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:47,916 Speaker 1: assume here in the United States, which is when you're 405 00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:50,636 Speaker 1: found innocent, it's just it's done. No, It's not like 406 00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:53,356 Speaker 1: that in Italy because it's not done until the Supreme 407 00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 1: Court decides it's done. So the prosecution appealed my acquittal, 408 00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:04,596 Speaker 1: my acquittal was overturned, and they convicted me. I was 409 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 1: actually sentenced to twenty eight point five years at that conviction. 410 00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:14,116 Speaker 1: So what was it like that, Amanda, to be definitively exonerated? 411 00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:18,876 Speaker 1: What was that day like? That was astonishing because first 412 00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: of all, I'm here in the United States, so I'm 413 00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: like logging onto all of the like the live streaming 414 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:30,356 Speaker 1: Italian news channels online to see which one is going 415 00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 1: to be reporting first on what the verdict is. And 416 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 1: I'm the only one in my entire family who can 417 00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:39,396 Speaker 1: speak fluent Italian. So here we all are crowded around 418 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:46,116 Speaker 1: my laptop. Everyone is around me, and I hear definitively acquitted. 419 00:27:46,436 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 1: I gasped. I was like, I was shocked. And everyone 420 00:27:50,756 --> 00:27:52,876 Speaker 1: in my family was like what what what was what? 421 00:27:52,876 --> 00:27:56,276 Speaker 1: What is it? And I was like, it's over, it's over. 422 00:27:56,956 --> 00:28:01,476 Speaker 1: It's over. Oh my god, it is over. And you know, 423 00:28:01,476 --> 00:28:04,796 Speaker 1: of course, we're all like squealing and it it was, 424 00:28:05,836 --> 00:28:09,236 Speaker 1: it was over. It was. It was astonishing, like the 425 00:28:09,996 --> 00:28:13,676 Speaker 1: feeling of no longer being a prey animal that is 426 00:28:13,716 --> 00:28:18,116 Speaker 1: being hunted down was huge. And suddenly I felt like, 427 00:28:18,156 --> 00:28:21,916 Speaker 1: oh my god, I can actually live my life. I 428 00:28:21,956 --> 00:28:25,676 Speaker 1: can't just survive my life. I can live my life 429 00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:28,676 Speaker 1: and no one is going to freaking stop me. I 430 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:31,796 Speaker 1: am not going to let anyone feel like they can 431 00:28:31,836 --> 00:28:35,516 Speaker 1: stop me from living my life anymore. Like I'm done, 432 00:28:36,316 --> 00:28:39,636 Speaker 1: Like I'm done with that. Yeah, it's so interesting that 433 00:28:39,676 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: you say that. I wonder if it is that narrative 434 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:47,236 Speaker 1: in your mind that helps you stave off feelings of resentment, 435 00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:50,556 Speaker 1: because if you are too resentful, then you have let 436 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:52,516 Speaker 1: them own a piece of your future, which is the 437 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:55,236 Speaker 1: one thing that you can control. I can just so 438 00:28:55,316 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 1: easily imagine getting consumed by resentment because you know, it's 439 00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:03,356 Speaker 1: one thing for a tragic event to happen in life, 440 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 1: just because like, imagine being struck by lightning, there's no 441 00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:11,996 Speaker 1: object to your anger, right, But here there was malicious 442 00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:17,476 Speaker 1: human intent and they haven't even shown any contrition. Yeah. No, 443 00:29:17,596 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 1: that's that's a great question because I think a lot 444 00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 1: of people come away from me thinking that I don't 445 00:29:22,116 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 1: actually experience anger, and I do, like I have moments 446 00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:30,476 Speaker 1: of like deep deep anger about what happened and how 447 00:29:30,516 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 1: it didn't need to happen. But I also am aware 448 00:29:36,036 --> 00:29:40,556 Speaker 1: that living four years in a room that was locked 449 00:29:41,596 --> 00:29:46,756 Speaker 1: really really showed me that the thing that I have 450 00:29:46,916 --> 00:29:50,236 Speaker 1: control over is my own mind, and that's pretty much it. 451 00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:55,236 Speaker 1: And so if I am going to live my life, 452 00:29:55,676 --> 00:30:00,156 Speaker 1: I need to be mindful of how I'm allowing myself 453 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:02,796 Speaker 1: to live it and what sort of feelings and thoughts 454 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:05,836 Speaker 1: I'm indulging in, because I think the important thing to 455 00:30:06,476 --> 00:30:10,236 Speaker 1: remember here is that I allow my myself to feel anger, 456 00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:13,756 Speaker 1: but I try not to indulge in it. And that's 457 00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:17,236 Speaker 1: the difference, because I think that especially when you feel 458 00:30:17,316 --> 00:30:22,076 Speaker 1: righteous anger, you feel like you should intrench yourself in 459 00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:24,636 Speaker 1: it and like dig deep in like and know that 460 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:27,356 Speaker 1: pain and feel that and have that be the driving 461 00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:29,756 Speaker 1: force in your life, because it is righteous. It's coming 462 00:30:29,756 --> 00:30:32,156 Speaker 1: from a place of like, I deserve to be angry. 463 00:30:32,756 --> 00:30:35,636 Speaker 1: But just because you deserve to be angry doesn't mean 464 00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:37,596 Speaker 1: that it's the thing that's going to make you your 465 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:42,596 Speaker 1: best self. And I don't. I don't want what happened 466 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:44,676 Speaker 1: to me to turn me into something that is not 467 00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:47,676 Speaker 1: my best self. I want to I want to still 468 00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:50,476 Speaker 1: feel like I'm in control of at least one thing 469 00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:52,916 Speaker 1: in my life, and that's me and how I'm reacting 470 00:30:52,956 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 1: to a set of bad circumstances. On the one hand, 471 00:30:57,396 --> 00:31:02,036 Speaker 1: your story is so exceptional and so extraordinary. On the 472 00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 1: other there are many themes that are so relatable. We 473 00:31:06,636 --> 00:31:09,916 Speaker 1: all have these moments in life where we think, oh, man, 474 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,276 Speaker 1: this person, they really misunderstood me. If only I could 475 00:31:13,276 --> 00:31:16,236 Speaker 1: clarify to them what the truth was, like what really happened, 476 00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 1: or you know what I really mean. But we don't 477 00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 1: always get the chance to set the record straight. And 478 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:25,076 Speaker 1: you know, today there are still swats of people out 479 00:31:25,076 --> 00:31:27,916 Speaker 1: there who think you are guilty of a crime you 480 00:31:27,956 --> 00:31:31,636 Speaker 1: didn't commit. And I want to know how you make 481 00:31:31,676 --> 00:31:35,476 Speaker 1: peace with that. You how you don't allow yourself to 482 00:31:35,516 --> 00:31:38,796 Speaker 1: be driven insane by that, because if you, Amanda, can 483 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:41,516 Speaker 1: come to terms with this, I imagine it could give 484 00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:44,116 Speaker 1: a lot of listeners a lot of hope who are 485 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:49,436 Speaker 1: dealing with far more quotitian misconceptions. Sure, sure, I appreciate 486 00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:51,316 Speaker 1: also that you say that, like, there's a lot of 487 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:55,076 Speaker 1: things in my experience that is really relatable. One because actually, 488 00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:58,596 Speaker 1: the way that I was wrongly convicted is not very 489 00:31:58,636 --> 00:32:01,156 Speaker 1: different than the way lots of people are wrongly convicted. 490 00:32:01,196 --> 00:32:03,716 Speaker 1: You just don't hear about their cases quite as often. 491 00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:06,996 Speaker 1: But furthermore, I also appreciate the fact that you are 492 00:32:07,556 --> 00:32:10,116 Speaker 1: trying to relate to what I'm talking about and how 493 00:32:10,156 --> 00:32:13,636 Speaker 1: I feel like that feeling of being misrepresented, misunderstood, people 494 00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: finding fault in you are stripping you of context given 495 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 1: your situation. A lot of people reach out to me 496 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:21,236 Speaker 1: and say, like, how do I deal with the fact 497 00:32:21,236 --> 00:32:23,396 Speaker 1: that people are calling me a slut in my high school? 498 00:32:23,876 --> 00:32:28,116 Speaker 1: Or what do I do about how like my reputation 499 00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:31,076 Speaker 1: is destroyed based upon this, like one tweet I did 500 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:34,356 Speaker 1: when I was young. And one of the things that 501 00:32:34,436 --> 00:32:39,156 Speaker 1: I find personal peace with is just knowing that, like 502 00:32:39,636 --> 00:32:43,276 Speaker 1: all those people who hate me don't actually hate me, 503 00:32:44,036 --> 00:32:47,916 Speaker 1: Like the person that they think they hate doesn't even exist, 504 00:32:48,436 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 1: so it's not me, Like they're directing their hate at 505 00:32:52,276 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 1: a target that is this sort of false version of 506 00:32:56,996 --> 00:32:59,396 Speaker 1: me that doesn't really exist, and I just happen to 507 00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:02,716 Speaker 1: be the face and the name that they associate with 508 00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:06,436 Speaker 1: this fantasy. However, that doesn't mean that I don't live 509 00:33:06,516 --> 00:33:08,996 Speaker 1: with the sort of challenges that come with people having 510 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:12,036 Speaker 1: preconceived notions of me as I try to like put 511 00:33:12,036 --> 00:33:15,436 Speaker 1: my work out into the world or just even you know, 512 00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:19,116 Speaker 1: exist in public spaces. Can you say more about that? 513 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:23,116 Speaker 1: How does that manifest? Oh? Sure, I mean I think 514 00:33:23,116 --> 00:33:24,916 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that. Maybe people come up 515 00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:27,076 Speaker 1: to me and are like, you're guilty, But no, it's 516 00:33:27,116 --> 00:33:30,596 Speaker 1: not how it manifests itself. It's more like I drive 517 00:33:30,676 --> 00:33:33,876 Speaker 1: up to the kiosk to get on a ferry. I 518 00:33:33,956 --> 00:33:36,596 Speaker 1: give them my credit card. The person sees my name 519 00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:39,156 Speaker 1: on the credit card says are you that a manned Knox? 520 00:33:39,716 --> 00:33:42,876 Speaker 1: And I go yes, and they say, well, I have 521 00:33:42,916 --> 00:33:45,556 Speaker 1: some questions of you about your cart wheels and what 522 00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:48,156 Speaker 1: you were saying in your interrogation. Meanwhile, this is the 523 00:33:48,196 --> 00:33:50,396 Speaker 1: person who's like holding onto my credit card and not 524 00:33:50,476 --> 00:33:52,996 Speaker 1: giving it back to me until I answer their questions 525 00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:57,356 Speaker 1: for them. So it's that kind of sense of entitlement 526 00:33:57,516 --> 00:34:00,076 Speaker 1: that people have to the worst experience of my life 527 00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:03,236 Speaker 1: that at any point that they happen to run into me, 528 00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:08,596 Speaker 1: that continues to be this challenge. But again I also 529 00:34:08,676 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 1: understand and that here this person is who has invested 530 00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:14,996 Speaker 1: themselves in the case, and this is like their one 531 00:34:15,036 --> 00:34:16,796 Speaker 1: moment in their whole life where they feel like they're 532 00:34:16,836 --> 00:34:19,476 Speaker 1: going to get to finally have a question answered, and 533 00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 1: so they think, I can't, you know, let this opportunity 534 00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:26,676 Speaker 1: pass up, but failing to appreciate that, well, I'm in 535 00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:28,836 Speaker 1: the middle of my life and my life does not 536 00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:33,756 Speaker 1: revolve around answering your questions. So it's a kind of 537 00:34:33,916 --> 00:34:38,196 Speaker 1: failure of empathy. Aman, I'm struck by the fact that 538 00:34:39,516 --> 00:34:41,556 Speaker 1: you know, on this show a slight change of plans. 539 00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 1: It's so much about identity, our self identity, the fragility 540 00:34:46,796 --> 00:34:49,996 Speaker 1: of our identity, who gets to own our identity, how 541 00:34:50,036 --> 00:34:53,276 Speaker 1: our identities change over time, And to me, your story 542 00:34:53,396 --> 00:34:56,596 Speaker 1: screams of these themes, right, I mean, you might experience 543 00:34:56,636 --> 00:34:58,956 Speaker 1: that with a much greater intensity, which is that your 544 00:34:58,996 --> 00:35:01,876 Speaker 1: identity in many ways has been usurped by lots of 545 00:35:01,916 --> 00:35:04,876 Speaker 1: actors out in the world, but many of us feel 546 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:09,076 Speaker 1: that way, like who claims maya right? Like who gets 547 00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:13,116 Speaker 1: to define who I am and what I've done? So definitely, 548 00:35:13,356 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 1: my ongoing curse is continuing to be defined in the 549 00:35:19,476 --> 00:35:23,516 Speaker 1: greater you know, human awareness, by a crime that I 550 00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:25,836 Speaker 1: didn't commit, as opposed to all of the things that 551 00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:28,876 Speaker 1: I have done. Like the vast majority of people when 552 00:35:28,876 --> 00:35:33,276 Speaker 1: they think Amanda Knox, they don't think of podcaster, journalist, writer, 553 00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 1: They think girl who was accused of murder at at best, right, 554 00:35:38,276 --> 00:35:45,516 Speaker 1: And my challenge has always been, well, first of all, 555 00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:48,996 Speaker 1: how important is it to me for me to define 556 00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:55,156 Speaker 1: my own narrative and legacy? Is that necessary for me 557 00:35:55,316 --> 00:35:58,516 Speaker 1: to live the life, like to live a happy life? 558 00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:04,516 Speaker 1: And you know, ultimately it's not necessary, right, Like I 559 00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:07,756 Speaker 1: don't have to convince everyone in the world that I'm 560 00:36:07,756 --> 00:36:11,396 Speaker 1: innocent in order to live a fulfilled life, because ultimately, 561 00:36:11,396 --> 00:36:15,276 Speaker 1: living a fulfilled life is on me, right. Yeah. However, 562 00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:19,596 Speaker 1: one of the more traumatic experiences someone can have is 563 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:25,076 Speaker 1: to not be allowed to define what their experiences mean 564 00:36:25,236 --> 00:36:28,156 Speaker 1: to them. So not only like what their experience was 565 00:36:28,196 --> 00:36:32,076 Speaker 1: but what it means to them, And so doing constant 566 00:36:32,236 --> 00:36:36,476 Speaker 1: processing work to define for myself what it means to 567 00:36:36,516 --> 00:36:41,036 Speaker 1: me is valuable to me and also in turn valuable 568 00:36:41,036 --> 00:36:43,356 Speaker 1: to others who are trying to find their own meaning 569 00:36:43,396 --> 00:36:46,436 Speaker 1: to their experiences. Because there is no inherent meaning to 570 00:36:46,476 --> 00:36:48,916 Speaker 1: any of our suffering, we have to make sense of 571 00:36:48,956 --> 00:36:51,316 Speaker 1: it and we have to define what it means, like 572 00:36:51,356 --> 00:36:54,756 Speaker 1: how big of a role it is in our life. So, 573 00:36:54,796 --> 00:36:58,516 Speaker 1: you know, everything leading up to everything that happened in Italy, 574 00:36:58,596 --> 00:37:01,476 Speaker 1: I lived a very charmed but naive life. I was, 575 00:37:01,556 --> 00:37:04,836 Speaker 1: you know, very sheltered, and you know, had a very 576 00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:07,636 Speaker 1: limited perspective on things. I thought that only bad people 577 00:37:07,676 --> 00:37:10,276 Speaker 1: went to prison and that I never had to think 578 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,996 Speaker 1: about those issues. But I also think, wow, you know, 579 00:37:14,236 --> 00:37:17,556 Speaker 1: would be would I be a good you know, would 580 00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 1: I be a good person if I hadn't gone through 581 00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:22,996 Speaker 1: something so terrible Because nothing bad had ever happened to 582 00:37:23,036 --> 00:37:25,276 Speaker 1: me up to that point, and I sort of took 583 00:37:25,316 --> 00:37:28,476 Speaker 1: for granted that I would just be able to have 584 00:37:28,596 --> 00:37:30,316 Speaker 1: the life that I wanted in a family and a 585 00:37:30,356 --> 00:37:34,116 Speaker 1: career without you know, any problems. Today, I feel like 586 00:37:34,156 --> 00:37:38,476 Speaker 1: I have and a perspective that I having lived kind 587 00:37:38,476 --> 00:37:43,396 Speaker 1: of with the lowest possible hopes and and then being 588 00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:47,916 Speaker 1: able to like take that perspective and try to give 589 00:37:48,076 --> 00:37:51,676 Speaker 1: voice to an experience that doesn't often have a have 590 00:37:51,716 --> 00:37:55,676 Speaker 1: a voice, and try to like make those connections between 591 00:37:55,996 --> 00:38:00,196 Speaker 1: other people suffering and overwhelming experiences and others, because I 592 00:38:00,196 --> 00:38:03,556 Speaker 1: think there is this this false idea that people can't 593 00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:06,156 Speaker 1: relate to each other if they don't have the same experiences, 594 00:38:06,196 --> 00:38:08,836 Speaker 1: And it's like, no, we can. We can do that 595 00:38:09,156 --> 00:38:11,836 Speaker 1: of the work. We can understand how the mind works 596 00:38:11,836 --> 00:38:15,156 Speaker 1: when it reacts to traumatic experiences. We can share that 597 00:38:15,236 --> 00:38:17,716 Speaker 1: with each other, and we only get better for it. 598 00:38:18,076 --> 00:38:23,356 Speaker 1: I feel like weirdly better for that experience, even if 599 00:38:23,356 --> 00:38:27,196 Speaker 1: I would never wish it upon my worst enemy. That's profound. 600 00:38:27,876 --> 00:38:30,876 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, look, I think again, maybe this is 601 00:38:30,916 --> 00:38:34,076 Speaker 1: just the part of my mind that studies human behavior 602 00:38:34,116 --> 00:38:36,556 Speaker 1: for a living, but I feel like there are so 603 00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:40,356 Speaker 1: many common threads in psychology that absolutely transcend the specifics 604 00:38:40,396 --> 00:38:42,836 Speaker 1: of an experience. In fact, that's one of the reasons 605 00:38:42,916 --> 00:38:46,156 Speaker 1: I built this show is to show that the cancer 606 00:38:46,236 --> 00:38:48,716 Speaker 1: patient in the throes of a stage four A diagnosis 607 00:38:48,796 --> 00:38:50,556 Speaker 1: might have more in common with you when it comes 608 00:38:50,556 --> 00:38:54,236 Speaker 1: to psychology than someone who had an experience that in 609 00:38:54,316 --> 00:38:57,196 Speaker 1: terms of content rivaled yours, right, and so it is 610 00:38:57,236 --> 00:39:00,596 Speaker 1: all about finding those commonalities. Yeah, I know that in 611 00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:04,236 Speaker 1: present day you're actively involved in something called the Innocence Network, 612 00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:07,876 Speaker 1: which supports the wrongfully incarcerated, and that you have been 613 00:39:08,116 --> 00:39:12,596 Speaker 1: warmly welcomed to their family. Yeah. So when I came home, 614 00:39:13,316 --> 00:39:15,236 Speaker 1: one of the things when I came home from Italy, 615 00:39:15,236 --> 00:39:18,276 Speaker 1: one of the things that I had sort of resigned 616 00:39:18,356 --> 00:39:20,956 Speaker 1: myself too, was this idea that I was very alone 617 00:39:20,996 --> 00:39:24,596 Speaker 1: in my experience and I was isolating. I was isolating 618 00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:27,996 Speaker 1: in a big way, and my mom was worried about me. 619 00:39:28,516 --> 00:39:31,916 Speaker 1: She was really worried about me. I kept doing prison 620 00:39:31,996 --> 00:39:35,156 Speaker 1: things like washing my underwear in the sink and generally 621 00:39:35,236 --> 00:39:39,076 Speaker 1: just kind of being a loner. And she was reached 622 00:39:39,076 --> 00:39:42,076 Speaker 1: out to by the director of the Idaho Innocence Project, 623 00:39:42,516 --> 00:39:45,116 Speaker 1: who said, Hey, just so you know, there's this whole 624 00:39:45,236 --> 00:39:49,636 Speaker 1: world of people who work to overturn wrongful convictions here 625 00:39:49,636 --> 00:39:52,516 Speaker 1: in the United States based off the Innocence Project. We 626 00:39:52,636 --> 00:39:55,396 Speaker 1: all get together once a year at this conference. You 627 00:39:55,516 --> 00:39:58,636 Speaker 1: need to bring Amanda, and of course my mom brings 628 00:39:58,716 --> 00:40:00,996 Speaker 1: us to me. And the last thing that I want 629 00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:02,996 Speaker 1: to do in the world is walk into a room 630 00:40:03,036 --> 00:40:05,876 Speaker 1: full of hundreds of strangers who are going to recognize me, 631 00:40:06,316 --> 00:40:10,876 Speaker 1: Like that is my worst nightmare scenario. And I was 632 00:40:10,916 --> 00:40:14,596 Speaker 1: still actually convicted at the time. I had just been reconvicted, 633 00:40:14,756 --> 00:40:17,996 Speaker 1: and I was doing all those like facing extradition, what 634 00:40:18,076 --> 00:40:20,196 Speaker 1: if I have to turn myself in kind of things. 635 00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:22,796 Speaker 1: That's the world I was living in when I walked 636 00:40:22,796 --> 00:40:27,356 Speaker 1: into that basement conference room with the bad lighting and 637 00:40:27,396 --> 00:40:32,356 Speaker 1: the bad carpet in Portland, Oregon, and I walked into 638 00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:35,956 Speaker 1: a room. My mom sort of pushed me into the room, 639 00:40:36,356 --> 00:40:40,236 Speaker 1: and these two guys immediately ran up to me and 640 00:40:40,356 --> 00:40:44,196 Speaker 1: hugged me and said, you don't have to explain a thing, 641 00:40:44,436 --> 00:40:49,396 Speaker 1: little sister. We know And it's like they knew, they 642 00:40:49,516 --> 00:40:53,076 Speaker 1: knew what I was most scared of walking into that room, 643 00:40:53,076 --> 00:40:55,316 Speaker 1: that I was going to be recognized and have to 644 00:40:55,356 --> 00:41:00,076 Speaker 1: explain myself and be judged. And I was introduced to 645 00:41:00,236 --> 00:41:03,756 Speaker 1: a not just a community, but a family of people 646 00:41:04,196 --> 00:41:09,476 Speaker 1: who understood and cared even though they didn't know me. 647 00:41:10,276 --> 00:41:13,636 Speaker 1: And what they did for me in that moment. These 648 00:41:13,636 --> 00:41:15,596 Speaker 1: two men who had each spent over a decade in 649 00:41:15,636 --> 00:41:18,516 Speaker 1: prison for crimes that they didn't commit, I could probably 650 00:41:18,556 --> 00:41:22,116 Speaker 1: do for someone else too, And that world has introduced 651 00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:25,036 Speaker 1: me to some amazing people doing amazing work, and I 652 00:41:25,116 --> 00:41:28,036 Speaker 1: try to bring light to that work and shed light 653 00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:33,196 Speaker 1: on people's cases and the issues that get people wrongly convicted. 654 00:41:33,236 --> 00:41:37,636 Speaker 1: Those are all things that we all can totally understand 655 00:41:38,276 --> 00:41:42,476 Speaker 1: and totally fix. It is absolutely within our power and 656 00:41:42,716 --> 00:42:06,996 Speaker 1: is so worth it. Hey, thanks for listening. Join me 657 00:42:07,076 --> 00:42:09,756 Speaker 1: next week when we hear from Betty Bagumbe. In the 658 00:42:09,836 --> 00:42:12,596 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, the President of Uganda sent Betty on a 659 00:42:12,636 --> 00:42:14,876 Speaker 1: mission to try and put an end to violence in 660 00:42:14,916 --> 00:42:18,876 Speaker 1: northern Uganda. Once there, she found herself face to face 661 00:42:18,996 --> 00:42:23,996 Speaker 1: with a notorious warlord, Joseph Coney. So that moment in time, 662 00:42:24,636 --> 00:42:29,276 Speaker 1: I was very scared. So I debated within myself, do 663 00:42:29,596 --> 00:42:43,596 Speaker 1: I a boat this mission or do I go A 664 00:42:43,756 --> 00:42:46,956 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produce 665 00:42:47,036 --> 00:42:51,276 Speaker 1: by Nie Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes Tyler Greene, 666 00:42:51,436 --> 00:42:55,956 Speaker 1: our senior producer, Jan Guera, our senior editor, Benaliday, our 667 00:42:56,036 --> 00:43:00,636 Speaker 1: sound engineer, Emily Rostek, our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle, 668 00:43:00,756 --> 00:43:04,676 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our theme song and 669 00:43:04,796 --> 00:43:08,276 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A slight change of 670 00:43:08,276 --> 00:43:11,796 Speaker 1: plants to production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to 671 00:43:11,876 --> 00:43:16,316 Speaker 1: everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, Lee Tall Mulat 672 00:43:16,636 --> 00:43:20,356 Speaker 1: and Heather Fame, and of course a very special thanks 673 00:43:20,436 --> 00:43:23,676 Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a slight change of 674 00:43:23,756 --> 00:43:27,756 Speaker 1: plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker See you next week. 675 00:43:31,876 --> 00:43:35,036 Speaker 1: I have to be mindful about what songs I sing 676 00:43:35,236 --> 00:43:39,716 Speaker 1: at karaoke, Like if any song has like a hint 677 00:43:39,756 --> 00:43:41,836 Speaker 1: of like a fem fatal kind of character in it, 678 00:43:41,876 --> 00:43:44,636 Speaker 1: like people are going to read into that, right, Like 679 00:43:44,836 --> 00:43:48,076 Speaker 1: or you know, if I, like, I dress up in 680 00:43:48,116 --> 00:43:52,396 Speaker 1: a costume for Halloween and I post it to Instagram 681 00:43:52,796 --> 00:43:56,236 Speaker 1: and I you know, people read into that and say, oh, 682 00:43:56,276 --> 00:43:59,196 Speaker 1: look what again, what a weird character she is? She's 683 00:43:59,236 --> 00:44:01,636 Speaker 1: wearing a costume, and it's like, well, or I'm just 684 00:44:01,676 --> 00:44:03,396 Speaker 1: a regular person wearing a costume