WEBVTT - Meshell Ndegeocello/Don Was 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:32.476 Pushkin Pushkin. Michelle and Degiocello doesn't fit neatly into the 0:00:32.556 --> 0:00:35.876 jazz label, or any label of any kind for that matter. 0:00:36.476 --> 0:00:41.076 She's a phenomenal bass player, a deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter 0:00:41.116 --> 0:00:45.756 of song, an incredible band leader, and has one badass career. 0:00:46.196 --> 0:00:48.836 So even though she's not strictly jazz, it's fitting that 0:00:48.876 --> 0:00:51.516 after a securitiest journey through the industry that started as 0:00:51.556 --> 0:00:54.276 one of the premier artists on Madonna's Maverick Records in 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:57.756 the early nineties, she's now released two albums on Blue 0:00:57.756 --> 0:01:01.316 Miot Records under the guidance of Don Was. The first 0:01:01.356 --> 0:01:04.036 was last year's The Omnichord Real Book, a project with 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:07.556 a fascinating origin will be discussing on today's episode. The 0:01:07.636 --> 0:01:10.756 latest is twenty twenty four's No More Water The Gospel 0:01:10.796 --> 0:01:13.236 of James Baldwin, a tribute to two of the great 0:01:13.276 --> 0:01:16.956 Black American writers and thinkers of the last century, James 0:01:16.996 --> 0:01:21.476 Baldwin and Audrey Lord. That might sound heady, but consider 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:24.836 the source. Michelle is the product of a Washington d c. 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:28.236 Upbringing a city a wash in culture like go go 0:01:28.436 --> 0:01:32.716 music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:37.476 her DC home. Michelle's a great synthesizer of music and ideas. 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:40.916 Joining Michelle, don Was and myself on our chat as 0:01:40.956 --> 0:01:43.596 a Browns, an inn demand drummer and musician who's been 0:01:43.596 --> 0:01:45.836 playing with Michelle since she picked him out of Berkeley 0:01:45.876 --> 0:01:49.596 College of Music. He's also worked closely with Andrew Byrd, Nicka, Keen, 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:52.676 Blake Mills, and many more. But in today's episode, he 0:01:52.676 --> 0:01:55.396 helps us gain some valuable insight about what it's like 0:01:55.516 --> 0:02:01.476 to be a close collaborator of Michelle and Degiocello. This 0:02:01.676 --> 0:02:04.916 is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm 0:02:05.036 --> 0:02:08.796 justin Mitchman. Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music 0:02:08.796 --> 0:02:11.596 Studio one to twenty six in Culver City, California, with 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:15.356 Michelle and degio Cello and drummer Abe Browns. To see 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:17.596 the full video version of this episode, go to YouTube 0:02:17.636 --> 0:02:22.476 dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. I mean, DC's very 0:02:23.236 --> 0:02:25.116 on the surface, it looks like what it is, but 0:02:25.276 --> 0:02:27.276 there's all kinds of things going on below the surface 0:02:27.276 --> 0:02:29.636 in DC. I feel like or beneath the veneer on 0:02:29.676 --> 0:02:32.396 the other on the flip side, you know, musically. 0:02:31.956 --> 0:02:36.516 Yes, yeah, yeah, it was a percussive element definitely made 0:02:36.556 --> 0:02:41.556 his way. There's so much of that in go go music. 0:02:41.876 --> 0:02:43.876 And when I went to Cuba it changed me because 0:02:43.916 --> 0:02:46.876 it was it was the first time someone told me like, 0:02:47.556 --> 0:02:52.556 stop counting and just play, just play, and if the 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:55.156 people aren't moving to the music, then you're not. You 0:02:55.196 --> 0:02:58.276 haven't reached that place yet. We're not locked. 0:02:59.356 --> 0:03:01.916 How do you implement theory? That might be easy stop counting, 0:03:01.956 --> 0:03:03.276 but how do you in practice? 0:03:04.676 --> 0:03:04.876 Listen? 0:03:04.996 --> 0:03:11.276 Listen? You know, just you just have to have complete 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:14.636 trust and listen. I'm not good at it yet, you know. 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:19.236 It's just it's a constant unfolding of when you start 0:03:19.236 --> 0:03:22.636 to just trust yourself and you're just using your ears 0:03:22.676 --> 0:03:23.476 and you're listening. 0:03:25.076 --> 0:03:27.676 I think you're awesome at it. Actually, I was just 0:03:27.716 --> 0:03:32.236 watching a clip of you with Oliver Lake and Chris 0:03:32.356 --> 0:03:34.596 Dave doctor Strange. Is that the song? 0:03:34.756 --> 0:03:35.236 Yeah? 0:03:35.276 --> 0:03:39.316 And you're standing there playing one of the most syncopated 0:03:40.116 --> 0:03:43.716 original sound and bass parts I ever heard in my life, 0:03:44.356 --> 0:03:48.876 and no one is helping you hold those syncopations down. 0:03:48.956 --> 0:03:55.716 Everyone's working playing polyrhythms against it, and you never lost that. 0:03:56.276 --> 0:03:59.556 I was just like, how does she hold this groove 0:03:59.636 --> 0:04:02.756 down with all this counterpoint going on? 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:03.276 Around. 0:04:03.596 --> 0:04:04.956 I'm the drummer's best friend. 0:04:05.436 --> 0:04:08.516 Yeah, yeah, yeah you are. 0:04:09.196 --> 0:04:09.396 Yeah. 0:04:09.516 --> 0:04:11.876 Probably comes from playing Go Go and just having to 0:04:12.316 --> 0:04:14.756 hold it down so people can have a good time, right. 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:16.956 Yeah, I mean I grew up where if you you 0:04:17.156 --> 0:04:21.956 veered off, I mean everything would literally stop, or you 0:04:22.236 --> 0:04:24.876 just would someone would get hurt, someone would get hurt, 0:04:24.996 --> 0:04:29.276 or you'd have to really endure intense criticism after I 0:04:29.276 --> 0:04:34.276 mean painful jousting and dozens. 0:04:35.036 --> 0:04:37.196 That's that's the that's the environment you came up with. 0:04:37.596 --> 0:04:43.836 Yes, Go Go is a very masculine and intense. 0:04:45.236 --> 0:04:53.516 Music question. Yeah, Chuck Brown or Rare Essence? Who is 0:04:53.596 --> 0:04:54.396 the originator? 0:04:55.196 --> 0:04:58.756 Just they're both so very different, and I think the 0:04:58.756 --> 0:05:03.436 originator is a band called Eu actually or Trouble Funk 0:05:03.596 --> 0:05:06.916 or Junkyard. There are mini bands that were before them 0:05:07.836 --> 0:05:10.996 just didn't get any recogniz But there's a great deaf 0:05:11.076 --> 0:05:15.556 jam record by Junkyard called Sardines and Pork and Beans. 0:05:15.796 --> 0:05:19.436 To me, that is the foundational example of Go Go. 0:05:19.676 --> 0:05:23.116 When did Go Go become such a part of DC? Like, 0:05:23.276 --> 0:05:24.996 was it always there as far as you were? 0:05:25.396 --> 0:05:28.796 Yeah, as far as I don't know. I'm I'm old 0:05:28.876 --> 0:05:31.596 but not old enough to know where it stems from. 0:05:31.716 --> 0:05:33.116 You just always heard it growing up. 0:05:33.316 --> 0:05:36.636 Always was the main music, the only music that made money. 0:05:37.236 --> 0:05:39.876 Jazz gigs didn't make any money. I could play five 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:42.916 nights a week on go go gigs and make more 0:05:42.956 --> 0:05:45.716 money than my dad. And he had society. 0:05:45.236 --> 0:05:48.996 Gigs, oh man like like when you say society gigs. 0:05:48.716 --> 0:05:51.916 Like like he played he was in the army, so 0:05:51.956 --> 0:05:54.476 he played at the NCO Club. I would play at 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:58.956 the Capitol, you know, but the go go was the 0:05:59.076 --> 0:06:01.276 driving force of DC eighties. 0:06:01.916 --> 0:06:04.236 Where did your dad Your dad been a jazz musician 0:06:04.836 --> 0:06:09.756 And did you feel and I imagine you learned. I 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:12.636 mean I read that your first real book came from 0:06:12.876 --> 0:06:17.676 your father. Did you feel like you wanted to maybe 0:06:18.436 --> 0:06:20.396 play more jazz or I mean like the fact that 0:06:20.436 --> 0:06:24.276 you could make the money doing go go was that the. 0:06:23.516 --> 0:06:27.596 These are deep, long conversations. I think when you're young, 0:06:27.596 --> 0:06:30.236 you're first starting to play, you just want to find 0:06:30.236 --> 0:06:33.156 your community. It's funny I was asking a does he 0:06:33.196 --> 0:06:36.436 feelly belongs to any sort of click or genre that's 0:06:36.516 --> 0:06:39.116 coming up? And I think that when I was young, 0:06:39.236 --> 0:06:42.396 I was like, this is the music that everyone's going 0:06:42.436 --> 0:06:45.796 to see. I'm making a lot of friends, and that's 0:06:45.836 --> 0:06:47.556 what drew me to it. It is like I got 0:06:47.596 --> 0:06:50.236 to be with like minded people when we're trying to 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:53.516 get good at something. But I also liked hanging out 0:06:53.556 --> 0:06:57.516 with my friend Federico, who loved Toto and Van Halen, 0:06:57.716 --> 0:07:00.596 and so I was drawn to that too, and the 0:07:00.636 --> 0:07:06.516 beauty about DC. In the seventies there wasn't genre based radio, 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:13.116 so I could hear Bad Brains and Parliament and you know, 0:07:14.076 --> 0:07:18.116 Kim Carnes and Gladys Knight. I just never felt that 0:07:18.756 --> 0:07:22.556 sort of separation. And so to say, was I into it? 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:25.556 I was just into anything that would get me playing 0:07:25.716 --> 0:07:29.356 and meeting people who were trying to make things and 0:07:29.396 --> 0:07:30.476 make live bands. 0:07:30.676 --> 0:07:32.996 You know, yeah, were you all? As a bass player? 0:07:33.996 --> 0:07:36.596 I played the clarinet for a while, but my brother 0:07:36.676 --> 0:07:39.516 played the guitar and his friend left the bassover and 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:42.236 once I realized it allowed him and I to interact 0:07:42.556 --> 0:07:44.996 and play together, I was like, this is when I 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:46.196 want to play. 0:07:46.436 --> 0:07:47.996 Did you try playing guitar before that? 0:07:48.156 --> 0:07:53.396 Like, yeah, that didn't work for me? What about different energy? 0:07:53.436 --> 0:07:56.636 I have more of a bass player energy. Guitar players 0:07:56.676 --> 0:08:01.036 are very they have a confidence and a need to 0:08:01.116 --> 0:08:05.076 be out front. Sorry, to make a generalization, I think 0:08:05.116 --> 0:08:06.916 I'm more of a like I like to watch everything 0:08:06.916 --> 0:08:10.076 and see what I can add that will be helpful. 0:08:10.996 --> 0:08:13.556 It's a confidence thoughing that too, like that that there 0:08:13.636 --> 0:08:17.556 is a confidence in bass players that comes. I don't 0:08:17.556 --> 0:08:20.076 know from an I'm not a bass player, but observing 0:08:20.076 --> 0:08:22.516 bass players always intimidating to me in the sense that 0:08:22.916 --> 0:08:25.556 they're always listening, they see everything. 0:08:26.436 --> 0:08:27.756 Natural leader of the band. 0:08:27.836 --> 0:08:30.756 That's why they make good producers. 0:08:31.276 --> 0:08:33.436 I don't know about that. But we're the natural leader 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:35.956 of the band. We can turn around, we can walk, 0:08:35.996 --> 0:08:38.196 we can tell the drummer he's slowing down. You can 0:08:38.236 --> 0:08:41.436 throw up a hand to make a like it's coming. 0:08:41.556 --> 0:08:44.156 You know, you're the one that can like get it happening. 0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:47.036 You're the natural. You can walk up to the singer 0:08:47.076 --> 0:08:49.836 and be like, we're at the first and you know, 0:08:50.556 --> 0:08:52.276 you just have a natural vibe. 0:08:52.556 --> 0:08:54.596 Get the guitar player back focused. 0:08:54.276 --> 0:08:56.396 And plus, yeah, you're all right, you're all right with 0:08:56.516 --> 0:08:59.276 taking your hands off the instrument. Where a guitar player 0:08:59.316 --> 0:09:00.876 a keyboard player, it's not. 0:09:02.876 --> 0:09:04.556 And you can play one bass that and change the 0:09:04.676 --> 0:09:05.316 entire homony. 0:09:07.396 --> 0:09:09.916 Everyone's a bass player in my band. Abe's father is 0:09:09.916 --> 0:09:13.676 one of the greatest bass players in Sydney, Australia. Amazing 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:17.356 bass player. Chris Bruce is a bass player. Jevin Bruney, 0:09:17.396 --> 0:09:22.676 who play with Pil Tears for Fears also bass player first. 0:09:23.716 --> 0:09:26.636 So it's just a it's a bass player band. 0:09:28.556 --> 0:09:33.076 Sometimes someone else plays bass in your bands, Yeah, Kyle Miles, 0:09:33.716 --> 0:09:36.076 And why do you not play? 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:42.756 I come from the reason I think I have a 0:09:42.836 --> 0:09:45.596 career is I made one catchy R and B song 0:09:46.716 --> 0:09:49.356 and so I'm sort of I come from the R 0:09:49.396 --> 0:09:51.996 and B and go go thing where I'm there to 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:55.276 interact with the audience and I have to make some 0:09:55.316 --> 0:10:00.516 sort of connection to the audience, and I can't if 0:10:00.556 --> 0:10:02.796 I'm when I'm playing the bass, I'm lost in that 0:10:03.316 --> 0:10:05.276 and I don't have that connection. 0:10:06.796 --> 0:10:09.316 Sometimes you do two basses, right, yeah, yeah, how do 0:10:09.356 --> 0:10:10.836 you how do you break that down? 0:10:12.116 --> 0:10:15.316 Yeah? We passed back and forth, try to. I think 0:10:15.356 --> 0:10:19.676 the sound man creates a nice balance of us. And sometimes, yeah, 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:22.516 it's just hard to sing and play certain I write 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:26.276 certain basslines that are so contrapuntal to the vocal. But yeah, 0:10:26.316 --> 0:10:29.356 it's also yeah, it's like it's not my shtick. I 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:32.196 really love to play the bass. And then take it seriously. 0:10:32.476 --> 0:10:35.556 So you're such a brilliant bass player, I appreciate you saying, 0:10:35.596 --> 0:10:40.316 and gorgeous songwriter. How do you? How do you? How 0:10:40.356 --> 0:10:43.316 do you balance the two? I mean I personally as 0:10:43.356 --> 0:10:47.316 a as a failed musician, you know, I mean trying 0:10:47.356 --> 0:10:50.156 to find the time to work on songwriting, to work 0:10:50.156 --> 0:10:53.796 on you know, early on, I guess I mean now 0:10:53.836 --> 0:10:57.396 you're you're in, you know, you're on your path, but 0:10:57.716 --> 0:11:03.116 hopefully early on, I mean, I guess, when did songwriting 0:11:03.196 --> 0:11:05.236 become a part of your life? 0:11:05.356 --> 0:11:05.516 Oh? 0:11:05.516 --> 0:11:08.716 My father he liked to go to pawn shops and 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:11.716 he would just by all kinds of equipment, and he 0:11:11.836 --> 0:11:14.476 bought a roads and a little four track when I 0:11:14.516 --> 0:11:19.156 was about thirteen. And once I realized you could multi 0:11:19.196 --> 0:11:24.996 track and layer things, that was a big change. And 0:11:25.756 --> 0:11:30.116 I was on a jazz gig and I flailed and 0:11:30.436 --> 0:11:33.956 I realized I'm never going to be like a virtuoso, 0:11:34.236 --> 0:11:38.516 but I really like making things. And I found Catharsis 0:11:38.516 --> 0:11:40.716 in that. I think that's when I was like, I'm 0:11:40.716 --> 0:11:43.116 going to be a songwriter. That's gonna be my be 0:11:43.236 --> 0:11:43.636 my thing. 0:11:43.836 --> 0:11:46.556 That gave you a way to be involved in music 0:11:46.596 --> 0:11:49.116 without being the yeah, VIRTUALO, So. 0:11:49.156 --> 0:11:51.556 Then I felt you Yeah, it would never be. 0:11:51.716 --> 0:11:52.476 Yeah. 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:57.836 When you're writing a song, are you hearing the textures 0:11:58.276 --> 0:12:00.316 that you're going to add to it? 0:12:00.596 --> 0:12:00.836 Oh? 0:12:00.956 --> 0:12:07.116 Yeah, very much so Yeah, I'm very just do want 0:12:07.116 --> 0:12:12.276 to sound. I'm very aware. I have an awareness to 0:12:14.356 --> 0:12:19.716 the sonic feeling of a song more so than harmony 0:12:19.756 --> 0:12:24.236 and construction. I really am trying to create an emotional 0:12:25.156 --> 0:12:30.476 feeling with sonics. I'm very sensitive to mixes, like I 0:12:30.516 --> 0:12:33.396 really feel like you can you can change the way 0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:38.116 someone interacts with the song just by slight variations in 0:12:38.156 --> 0:12:44.316 the mix. And I can't say where that comes from. 0:12:44.356 --> 0:12:44.756 I just. 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:48.876 I'm a believer. I just think that's it's a gift 0:12:48.876 --> 0:12:52.436 and a burden. But that's what I try to hone into. 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:57.436 I think how the song makes the person feel. I 0:12:57.476 --> 0:12:59.996 can't tell them what to feel, but I want it 0:13:00.076 --> 0:13:02.356 to sound in a way that they can take it 0:13:02.396 --> 0:13:03.316 in a certain way. 0:13:04.036 --> 0:13:07.156 How do you how do you want to feel like. 0:13:08.516 --> 0:13:09.476 Different all the time? 0:13:09.716 --> 0:13:09.956 You know? 0:13:10.276 --> 0:13:14.556 I I when I'm making music, Yeah, I just I 0:13:14.636 --> 0:13:20.876 want to feel an array of emotions that that that 0:13:21.116 --> 0:13:23.836 only I know. But when I put the music out there, 0:13:24.116 --> 0:13:27.996 I just hope it sonically hits a place where you 0:13:28.036 --> 0:13:29.716 can feel whatever you need to feel. 0:13:30.196 --> 0:13:31.356 So you try to get to a place where at 0:13:31.396 --> 0:13:34.916 least you're feeling something and therefore, hopefully then yeah. 0:13:34.716 --> 0:13:36.756 I sound like an asshole. No, I always feel something. 0:13:37.436 --> 0:13:42.556 I mean, I just yeah, I love I I I 0:13:42.716 --> 0:13:48.156 love music all kinds, all styles. Good. I don't believe 0:13:48.156 --> 0:13:51.596 in good or bad. It's very opaque. There's certain things 0:13:51.636 --> 0:13:54.356 you may enjoy listening to, other things you might not. 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:57.796 I take a critique like a compliment, and a compliment 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:02.876 like a critique, and that and that keeps me enjoying music. 0:14:04.036 --> 0:14:04.196 You know. 0:14:05.076 --> 0:14:09.676 That's a really great way to think about feedback. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:09.916 --> 0:14:13.716 that's a really incredible way. Who if Go Go was 0:14:13.796 --> 0:14:17.516 kind of the foundation of of of of you learning 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:19.836 to Uh well, actually, let me ask this too, because 0:14:19.836 --> 0:14:23.036 you said that Go Go had a very masculine energy, 0:14:23.796 --> 0:14:25.676 but at the same time, your bass player, and as 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:29.836 you said, bass player is really commanding the band. You're 0:14:29.996 --> 0:14:33.516 kind of you're the leader, You're you're calling everything. Did 0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:38.236 that How did that feel? Early on? As you're a 0:14:38.356 --> 0:14:41.636 nascent bass player and you're in a very male dominated 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:47.596 or masculine genre, you're playing gigs in the genre that 0:14:47.636 --> 0:14:49.316 feels very masculine as that energy. 0:14:49.956 --> 0:14:54.956 Oh well, I can only give an example. I had 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:58.156 to play my don create this festival where you play 0:14:58.356 --> 0:15:01.276 one of your records and its entirety, and so we 0:15:01.396 --> 0:15:04.436 chose the first record to play, and I go back 0:15:04.476 --> 0:15:08.556 and I look at videos and I am like a 0:15:08.836 --> 0:15:12.836 raise jing asshole in my in my vibe in the 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:17.036 way I play, it's like on ten, you know. And 0:15:17.076 --> 0:15:19.916 I know it's like a certain sort of style I have. 0:15:20.196 --> 0:15:24.276 The It's it's just energetic frequency I think I got 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:27.796 from Go Go everything really tight, you know, like the 0:15:27.876 --> 0:15:34.356 gus are pulsating tight and fast, like the temples are 0:15:34.436 --> 0:15:39.596 like whoa. And and so when I sat when we 0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:41.476 went to play it now, and it's just like I 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:45.396 just don't even have that energy. I just don't even 0:15:45.436 --> 0:15:50.316 have that vibration wow anymore. And so I think it 0:15:50.356 --> 0:15:53.556 was a I had to had a sense of preservation 0:15:53.996 --> 0:15:56.916 in order to make it like I didn't want. The 0:15:56.996 --> 0:15:59.996 thing I couldn't stand is you played good for you know, 0:16:00.116 --> 0:16:02.236 being a woman. And I used to just crush me 0:16:03.476 --> 0:16:07.956 and I just eventually was like, nah, I'm good, I'm 0:16:07.956 --> 0:16:10.036 just gonna I'm just gonna play the best that's just 0:16:10.076 --> 0:16:13.316 so good that you don't say anything and so command. 0:16:13.436 --> 0:16:15.956 With such command, I want to hear nothing from you. 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:19.156 Yeah yeah, yeah, that's wild. 0:16:19.236 --> 0:16:24.516 Thank god, that's over youth. Youth and collagen like really 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:26.956 make you aggressive human being? 0:16:31.436 --> 0:16:33.996 What do you do you? Where do you think that 0:16:34.356 --> 0:16:37.196 energy went? If you don't have that vibration anymore? 0:16:37.516 --> 0:16:45.156 Oh, therapy and reconciling my traumas and a lot of weed. 0:16:46.716 --> 0:16:47.196 That'll help. 0:16:47.236 --> 0:16:50.396 I smoke a lot of weed so much. 0:16:50.716 --> 0:16:50.916 You know. 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:55.076 I read this interview with Martin Scorsese wh he was 0:16:55.116 --> 0:16:59.596 talking about when he first got it, first got out 0:16:59.636 --> 0:17:01.516 of film school, he had all the stuff he wanted 0:17:01.516 --> 0:17:03.556 to prove about what he could do, and then about 0:17:03.556 --> 0:17:08.116 three or four films in, it's like, just just tell 0:17:08.156 --> 0:17:12.116 a great story and tell it well. And I think 0:17:12.116 --> 0:17:15.476 that's just part of maturity as an artist. 0:17:15.876 --> 0:17:20.396 Yeah, I've read that by your last album with Maverick, 0:17:20.916 --> 0:17:23.316 with that, with the label you initially signed to, that 0:17:23.396 --> 0:17:27.436 you finally felt like you can make what you what 0:17:27.556 --> 0:17:31.756 you heard? Oh yeah, what can you explain what that? 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:33.676 What that means? Oh? 0:17:33.716 --> 0:17:39.716 Because that's what got me the first record deal is 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:42.036 that you you have your whole life to make your 0:17:42.036 --> 0:17:46.156 first record, right, and you're you're so confident in your 0:17:46.396 --> 0:17:50.836 ideas and that's what got the people to notice you. 0:17:51.716 --> 0:17:55.796 By the second and third people start telling you what's 0:17:55.876 --> 0:17:59.356 gonna what could help you be successful, and you can 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:02.756 take it or leave it or can crush you. And 0:18:02.796 --> 0:18:05.996 after making three records that no one was happy with, 0:18:06.076 --> 0:18:09.036 it just snapped in me, like I have to remember, 0:18:09.356 --> 0:18:15.196 like you know, this gift is not for me, you know, 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:17.756 I mean, it's I'm so blessed to have it, and 0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:21.836 I need to continue to wait for the transmissions and 0:18:21.916 --> 0:18:25.956 to be honest with the music because I rather fail 0:18:27.236 --> 0:18:31.556 doing what I was honest about. Then I jumped through 0:18:31.596 --> 0:18:33.836 all them hoops and made it different. And you still 0:18:33.876 --> 0:18:36.836 don't like me, or you still don't like it, you know. 0:18:37.036 --> 0:18:41.676 So all you have is your is just the feeling 0:18:41.716 --> 0:18:44.316 that I did my best. That's all I have. And 0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:50.476 what Don said is, eventually you know I'm not doing it. 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:53.716 I eventually you realize you're not doing it for the collapse, 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:57.156 and the people that really come to see you are 0:18:57.196 --> 0:19:00.956 looking for a hint of sincerity, just a little bit, 0:19:02.076 --> 0:19:06.476 because they pay I realize I pay money to go 0:19:09.156 --> 0:19:14.596 outside of myself for a good ninety minutes and watch 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:18.916 someone do what they love. And so that's what I 0:19:18.956 --> 0:19:20.036 started to focus on. 0:19:20.916 --> 0:19:27.356 M I want to talk about those transmissions. Have you 0:19:27.476 --> 0:19:34.196 discovered a way to encourage them? 0:19:35.196 --> 0:19:38.156 Yeah, I just I was I was fretting this interview 0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:41.916 for because I knew something would come up like that. 0:19:42.116 --> 0:19:47.716 I just I feel a hint of shame sometimes, but 0:19:47.796 --> 0:19:53.116 I pray. You know, I'm a believer, and the moments 0:19:53.156 --> 0:20:00.156 I have to myself are just and when I can 0:20:00.196 --> 0:20:03.596 hear my own thoughts, like I got rid of the phone, 0:20:04.036 --> 0:20:06.716 like I have like a type of flip phone, and 0:20:06.756 --> 0:20:10.516 I just I just try to create a space for 0:20:10.636 --> 0:20:16.276 myself to listen, and I really find that that helps creativity. 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:21.476 And also I stop sometimes I just stop for months 0:20:21.636 --> 0:20:24.836 and don't do anything. You know, everything's so rapid. I'm 0:20:24.836 --> 0:20:28.436 old enough to remember when people made a record every 0:20:28.676 --> 0:20:33.116 three to four years. You know, it was only eight. 0:20:32.996 --> 0:20:36.396 Songs, right, not seventy seven. 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:41.436 And so I just think, I know that's a reference, 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:44.636 yeah that record. 0:20:46.276 --> 0:20:48.556 Both have American rec rooms now, by the way, too. 0:20:48.876 --> 0:20:54.076 Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I love my virgo, my a 0:20:54.156 --> 0:21:00.876 virgo friend. Yeah. You just I don't know, I you 0:21:01.076 --> 0:21:04.156 just how do you do it? You tell me? It's like, 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:06.476 how do you wait for you and you aid people 0:21:06.516 --> 0:21:11.236 in bringing, you know, things to fruition? How do you 0:21:11.356 --> 0:21:15.116 keep yourself buoyant? How do you stay interested in music 0:21:15.596 --> 0:21:19.396 where you're seen as someone not only are you planting 0:21:19.436 --> 0:21:24.236 the seeds, you're tilling the land, and you're also out 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:29.516 there selling the product? Like, how do you maintain yeah, buoyancy? 0:21:32.036 --> 0:21:37.396 I draw inspiration from artists like you for real. You know, 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:42.716 we've never really talked about it because we mostly limit 0:21:42.756 --> 0:21:48.036 ourselves to kind of almost musical small talk. And that's 0:21:48.036 --> 0:21:51.156 because I don't know how to approach you about what 0:21:52.316 --> 0:21:57.036 the essence of what you do because it's it's beyond. 0:21:57.316 --> 0:21:59.476 I can't describe it, and I don't know how to 0:21:59.716 --> 0:22:03.836 verbalize it. But I've been we've been doing. I do 0:22:03.916 --> 0:22:06.356 the same thing you do, produce records and play bass. 0:22:06.356 --> 0:22:08.876 But I don't know how you do what you do. 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:13.596 Can't And it's not like it's happened once or twice. 0:22:14.436 --> 0:22:18.596 Every one of your records is just magnificent. You know 0:22:18.596 --> 0:22:20.796 how I feel about your records? You ever seen the 0:22:20.836 --> 0:22:24.636 pictures of a universe shot by the Hubble space telescope? Yes, 0:22:24.636 --> 0:22:26.716 I do follow this and you and you look at 0:22:26.716 --> 0:22:29.316 it and you get wait a minute, that little dot 0:22:29.756 --> 0:22:33.716 is a galaxy like the Milky Way, and we're looking 0:22:33.756 --> 0:22:36.756 at it one hundred million years ago because it's so 0:22:36.916 --> 0:22:40.756 far away and the colors are making That's how I 0:22:40.756 --> 0:22:45.596 feel about your records. I don't know how what you're 0:22:45.636 --> 0:22:48.236 plugged into, but I know I can't get there. But 0:22:48.316 --> 0:22:51.796 I've worked for a couple, just a couple other artists, 0:22:51.796 --> 0:22:54.556 you know. I think Wayne Shorter was one of those people. 0:22:54.756 --> 0:22:56.876 I think Bob Dylan is one of those people. 0:22:58.036 --> 0:22:59.196 We love Bob Dylan. 0:23:02.516 --> 0:23:07.436 Your sonic vision and what you're able to convey through 0:23:07.516 --> 0:23:12.236 sound is us the equivalent of what he can do, 0:23:12.916 --> 0:23:16.036 you know, with words, And I don't know how you 0:23:16.076 --> 0:23:18.676 do it. It's just mind blown. 0:23:18.956 --> 0:23:21.876 I appreciate you saying that. I will carry that with 0:23:21.916 --> 0:23:25.716 me today and when I have my losses, I will 0:23:25.716 --> 0:23:30.236 think of that. Take that out. Yeah. I just yeah, 0:23:30.396 --> 0:23:33.596 I'm just I have really good friends now too. I 0:23:33.636 --> 0:23:36.636 mean that helps a lot. And we listen to a 0:23:36.676 --> 0:23:40.316 lot of music, Like we just try to what are 0:23:40.316 --> 0:23:44.076 you listening to? And you DJ the dressing room tonight 0:23:44.236 --> 0:23:47.996 and just you know, just try to listen and I 0:23:48.076 --> 0:23:51.876 tell I've been having some students, which is really put 0:23:51.916 --> 0:23:54.556 you in a strange position because I'm not dogmatic, but 0:23:54.636 --> 0:23:57.196 the only thing I tell them, if you don't like 0:23:57.236 --> 0:24:00.316 yourself and like to spend time with yourself, you're not 0:24:00.356 --> 0:24:02.676 going to get to that creative space that you dream 0:24:02.716 --> 0:24:05.796 and hope for. You have to really like to sit 0:24:05.836 --> 0:24:09.796 with yourself and explore the instrument or where the tools 0:24:09.796 --> 0:24:12.756 you're using you have to spend you have to relate 0:24:12.796 --> 0:24:16.916 to them like and master them, like painting or any 0:24:16.956 --> 0:24:18.316 other medium of art. 0:24:19.676 --> 0:24:21.636 Yeah, that's a really great that's a really great point. 0:24:21.756 --> 0:24:25.716 Then alone time required to sit there and just go 0:24:26.036 --> 0:24:29.196 run something down hours at a time, you know, day 0:24:29.236 --> 0:24:30.596 in and day out, day after day. 0:24:31.516 --> 0:24:34.636 It requires a lot of a long time. It's hard 0:24:34.676 --> 0:24:38.076