Speaker 1: Pushkin Pushkin. Michelle and Degiocello doesn't fit neatly into the
Speaker 1: jazz label, or any label of any kind for that matter.
Speaker 1: She's a phenomenal bass player, a deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter
Speaker 1: of song, an incredible band leader, and has one badass career.
Speaker 1: So even though she's not strictly jazz, it's fitting that
Speaker 1: after a securitiest journey through the industry that started as
Speaker 1: one of the premier artists on Madonna's Maverick Records in
Speaker 1: the early nineties, she's now released two albums on Blue
Speaker 1: Miot Records under the guidance of Don Was. The first
Speaker 1: was last year's The Omnichord Real Book, a project with
Speaker 1: a fascinating origin will be discussing on today's episode. The
Speaker 1: latest is twenty twenty four's No More Water The Gospel
Speaker 1: of James Baldwin, a tribute to two of the great
Speaker 1: Black American writers and thinkers of the last century, James
Speaker 1: Baldwin and Audrey Lord. That might sound heady, but consider
Speaker 1: the source. Michelle is the product of a Washington d c.
Speaker 1: Upbringing a city a wash in culture like go go
Speaker 1: music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like
Speaker 1: her DC home. Michelle's a great synthesizer of music and ideas.
Speaker 1: Joining Michelle, don Was and myself on our chat as
Speaker 1: a Browns, an inn demand drummer and musician who's been
Speaker 1: playing with Michelle since she picked him out of Berkeley
Speaker 1: College of Music. He's also worked closely with Andrew Byrd, Nicka, Keen,
Speaker 1: Blake Mills, and many more. But in today's episode, he
Speaker 1: helps us gain some valuable insight about what it's like
Speaker 1: to be a close collaborator of Michelle and Degiocello. This
Speaker 1: is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm
Speaker 1: justin Mitchman. Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music
Speaker 1: Studio one to twenty six in Culver City, California, with
Speaker 1: Michelle and degio Cello and drummer Abe Browns. To see
Speaker 1: the full video version of this episode, go to YouTube
Speaker 1: dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. I mean, DC's very
Speaker 1: on the surface, it looks like what it is, but
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of things going on below the surface
Speaker 1: in DC. I feel like or beneath the veneer on
Speaker 1: the other on the flip side, you know, musically.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, it was a percussive element definitely made
Speaker 2: his way. There's so much of that in go go music.
Speaker 2: And when I went to Cuba it changed me because
Speaker 2: it was it was the first time someone told me like,
Speaker 2: stop counting and just play, just play, and if the
Speaker 2: people aren't moving to the music, then you're not. You
Speaker 2: haven't reached that place yet. We're not locked.
Speaker 1: How do you implement theory? That might be easy stop counting,
Speaker 1: but how do you in practice?
Speaker 3: Listen?
Speaker 2: Listen? You know, just you just have to have complete
Speaker 2: trust and listen. I'm not good at it yet, you know.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a constant unfolding of when you start
Speaker 2: to just trust yourself and you're just using your ears
Speaker 2: and you're listening.
Speaker 4: I think you're awesome at it. Actually, I was just
Speaker 4: watching a clip of you with Oliver Lake and Chris
Speaker 4: Dave doctor Strange. Is that the song?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: And you're standing there playing one of the most syncopated
Speaker 4: original sound and bass parts I ever heard in my life,
Speaker 4: and no one is helping you hold those syncopations down.
Speaker 4: Everyone's working playing polyrhythms against it, and you never lost that.
Speaker 4: I was just like, how does she hold this groove
Speaker 4: down with all this counterpoint going on?
Speaker 3: Around.
Speaker 2: I'm the drummer's best friend.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah you are.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Probably comes from playing Go Go and just having to
Speaker 5: hold it down so people can have a good time, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I grew up where if you you
Speaker 2: veered off, I mean everything would literally stop, or you
Speaker 2: just would someone would get hurt, someone would get hurt,
Speaker 2: or you'd have to really endure intense criticism after I
Speaker 2: mean painful jousting and dozens.
Speaker 1: That's that's the that's the environment you came up with.
Speaker 2: Yes, Go Go is a very masculine and intense.
Speaker 4: Music question. Yeah, Chuck Brown or Rare Essence? Who is
Speaker 4: the originator?
Speaker 2: Just they're both so very different, and I think the
Speaker 2: originator is a band called Eu actually or Trouble Funk
Speaker 2: or Junkyard. There are mini bands that were before them
Speaker 2: just didn't get any recogniz But there's a great deaf
Speaker 2: jam record by Junkyard called Sardines and Pork and Beans.
Speaker 2: To me, that is the foundational example of Go Go.
Speaker 1: When did Go Go become such a part of DC? Like,
Speaker 1: was it always there as far as you were?
Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as I don't know. I'm I'm old
Speaker 2: but not old enough to know where it stems from.
Speaker 1: You just always heard it growing up.
Speaker 2: Always was the main music, the only music that made money.
Speaker 2: Jazz gigs didn't make any money. I could play five
Speaker 2: nights a week on go go gigs and make more
Speaker 2: money than my dad. And he had society.
Speaker 1: Gigs, oh man like like when you say society gigs.
Speaker 2: Like like he played he was in the army, so
Speaker 2: he played at the NCO Club. I would play at
Speaker 2: the Capitol, you know, but the go go was the
Speaker 2: driving force of DC eighties.
Speaker 1: Where did your dad Your dad been a jazz musician
Speaker 1: And did you feel and I imagine you learned. I
Speaker 1: mean I read that your first real book came from
Speaker 1: your father. Did you feel like you wanted to maybe
Speaker 1: play more jazz or I mean like the fact that
Speaker 1: you could make the money doing go go was that the.
Speaker 2: These are deep, long conversations. I think when you're young,
Speaker 2: you're first starting to play, you just want to find
Speaker 2: your community. It's funny I was asking a does he
Speaker 2: feelly belongs to any sort of click or genre that's
Speaker 2: coming up? And I think that when I was young,
Speaker 2: I was like, this is the music that everyone's going
Speaker 2: to see. I'm making a lot of friends, and that's
Speaker 2: what drew me to it. It is like I got
Speaker 2: to be with like minded people when we're trying to
Speaker 2: get good at something. But I also liked hanging out
Speaker 2: with my friend Federico, who loved Toto and Van Halen,
Speaker 2: and so I was drawn to that too, and the
Speaker 2: beauty about DC. In the seventies there wasn't genre based radio,
Speaker 2: so I could hear Bad Brains and Parliament and you know,
Speaker 2: Kim Carnes and Gladys Knight. I just never felt that
Speaker 2: sort of separation. And so to say, was I into it?
Speaker 2: I was just into anything that would get me playing
Speaker 2: and meeting people who were trying to make things and
Speaker 2: make live bands.
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, were you all? As a bass player?
Speaker 2: I played the clarinet for a while, but my brother
Speaker 2: played the guitar and his friend left the bassover and
Speaker 2: once I realized it allowed him and I to interact
Speaker 2: and play together, I was like, this is when I
Speaker 2: want to play.
Speaker 1: Did you try playing guitar before that?
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that didn't work for me? What about different energy?
Speaker 2: I have more of a bass player energy. Guitar players
Speaker 2: are very they have a confidence and a need to
Speaker 2: be out front. Sorry, to make a generalization, I think
Speaker 2: I'm more of a like I like to watch everything
Speaker 2: and see what I can add that will be helpful.
Speaker 1: It's a confidence thoughing that too, like that that there
Speaker 1: is a confidence in bass players that comes. I don't
Speaker 1: know from an I'm not a bass player, but observing
Speaker 1: bass players always intimidating to me in the sense that
Speaker 1: they're always listening, they see everything.
Speaker 2: Natural leader of the band.
Speaker 3: That's why they make good producers.
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. But we're the natural leader
Speaker 2: of the band. We can turn around, we can walk,
Speaker 2: we can tell the drummer he's slowing down. You can
Speaker 2: throw up a hand to make a like it's coming.
Speaker 2: You know, you're the one that can like get it happening.
Speaker 2: You're the natural. You can walk up to the singer
Speaker 2: and be like, we're at the first and you know,
Speaker 2: you just have a natural vibe.
Speaker 1: Get the guitar player back focused.
Speaker 2: And plus, yeah, you're all right, you're all right with
Speaker 2: taking your hands off the instrument. Where a guitar player
Speaker 2: a keyboard player, it's not.
Speaker 3: And you can play one bass that and change the
Speaker 3: entire homony.
Speaker 2: Everyone's a bass player in my band. Abe's father is
Speaker 2: one of the greatest bass players in Sydney, Australia. Amazing
Speaker 2: bass player. Chris Bruce is a bass player. Jevin Bruney,
Speaker 2: who play with Pil Tears for Fears also bass player first.
Speaker 2: So it's just a it's a bass player band.
Speaker 4: Sometimes someone else plays bass in your bands, Yeah, Kyle Miles,
Speaker 4: And why do you not play?
Speaker 2: I come from the reason I think I have a
Speaker 2: career is I made one catchy R and B song
Speaker 2: and so I'm sort of I come from the R
Speaker 2: and B and go go thing where I'm there to
Speaker 2: interact with the audience and I have to make some
Speaker 2: sort of connection to the audience, and I can't if
Speaker 2: I'm when I'm playing the bass, I'm lost in that
Speaker 2: and I don't have that connection.
Speaker 4: Sometimes you do two basses, right, yeah, yeah, how do
Speaker 4: you how do you break that down?
Speaker 2: Yeah? We passed back and forth, try to. I think
Speaker 2: the sound man creates a nice balance of us. And sometimes, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just hard to sing and play certain I write
Speaker 2: certain basslines that are so contrapuntal to the vocal. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's also yeah, it's like it's not my shtick. I
Speaker 2: really love to play the bass. And then take it seriously.
Speaker 1: So you're such a brilliant bass player, I appreciate you saying,
Speaker 1: and gorgeous songwriter. How do you? How do you? How
Speaker 1: do you balance the two? I mean I personally as
Speaker 1: a as a failed musician, you know, I mean trying
Speaker 1: to find the time to work on songwriting, to work
Speaker 1: on you know, early on, I guess I mean now
Speaker 1: you're you're in, you know, you're on your path, but
Speaker 1: hopefully early on, I mean, I guess, when did songwriting
Speaker 1: become a part of your life?
Speaker 5: Oh?
Speaker 2: My father he liked to go to pawn shops and
Speaker 2: he would just by all kinds of equipment, and he
Speaker 2: bought a roads and a little four track when I
Speaker 2: was about thirteen. And once I realized you could multi
Speaker 2: track and layer things, that was a big change. And
Speaker 2: I was on a jazz gig and I flailed and
Speaker 2: I realized I'm never going to be like a virtuoso,
Speaker 2: but I really like making things. And I found Catharsis
Speaker 2: in that. I think that's when I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to be a songwriter. That's gonna be my be
Speaker 2: my thing.
Speaker 1: That gave you a way to be involved in music
Speaker 1: without being the yeah, VIRTUALO, So.
Speaker 2: Then I felt you Yeah, it would never be.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: When you're writing a song, are you hearing the textures
Speaker 4: that you're going to add to it?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so Yeah, I'm very just do want
Speaker 2: to sound. I'm very aware. I have an awareness to
Speaker 2: the sonic feeling of a song more so than harmony
Speaker 2: and construction. I really am trying to create an emotional
Speaker 2: feeling with sonics. I'm very sensitive to mixes, like I
Speaker 2: really feel like you can you can change the way
Speaker 2: someone interacts with the song just by slight variations in
Speaker 2: the mix. And I can't say where that comes from.
Speaker 1: I just.
Speaker 2: I'm a believer. I just think that's it's a gift
Speaker 2: and a burden. But that's what I try to hone into.
Speaker 2: I think how the song makes the person feel. I
Speaker 2: can't tell them what to feel, but I want it
Speaker 2: to sound in a way that they can take it
Speaker 2: in a certain way.
Speaker 1: How do you how do you want to feel like.
Speaker 2: Different all the time?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I I when I'm making music, Yeah, I just I
Speaker 2: want to feel an array of emotions that that that
Speaker 2: only I know. But when I put the music out there,
Speaker 2: I just hope it sonically hits a place where you
Speaker 2: can feel whatever you need to feel.
Speaker 1: So you try to get to a place where at
Speaker 1: least you're feeling something and therefore, hopefully then yeah.
Speaker 2: I sound like an asshole. No, I always feel something.
Speaker 2: I mean, I just yeah, I love I I I
Speaker 2: love music all kinds, all styles. Good. I don't believe
Speaker 2: in good or bad. It's very opaque. There's certain things
Speaker 2: you may enjoy listening to, other things you might not.
Speaker 2: I take a critique like a compliment, and a compliment
Speaker 2: like a critique, and that and that keeps me enjoying music.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: That's a really great way to think about feedback. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a really incredible way. Who if Go Go was
Speaker 1: kind of the foundation of of of of you learning
Speaker 1: to Uh well, actually, let me ask this too, because
Speaker 1: you said that Go Go had a very masculine energy,
Speaker 1: but at the same time, your bass player, and as
Speaker 1: you said, bass player is really commanding the band. You're
Speaker 1: kind of you're the leader, You're you're calling everything. Did
Speaker 1: that How did that feel? Early on? As you're a
Speaker 1: nascent bass player and you're in a very male dominated
Speaker 1: or masculine genre, you're playing gigs in the genre that
Speaker 1: feels very masculine as that energy.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I can only give an example. I had
Speaker 2: to play my don create this festival where you play
Speaker 2: one of your records and its entirety, and so we
Speaker 2: chose the first record to play, and I go back
Speaker 2: and I look at videos and I am like a
Speaker 2: raise jing asshole in my in my vibe in the
Speaker 2: way I play, it's like on ten, you know. And
Speaker 2: I know it's like a certain sort of style I have.
Speaker 2: The It's it's just energetic frequency I think I got
Speaker 2: from Go Go everything really tight, you know, like the
Speaker 2: gus are pulsating tight and fast, like the temples are
Speaker 2: like whoa. And and so when I sat when we
Speaker 2: went to play it now, and it's just like I
Speaker 2: just don't even have that energy. I just don't even
Speaker 2: have that vibration wow anymore. And so I think it
Speaker 2: was a I had to had a sense of preservation
Speaker 2: in order to make it like I didn't want. The
Speaker 2: thing I couldn't stand is you played good for you know,
Speaker 2: being a woman. And I used to just crush me
Speaker 2: and I just eventually was like, nah, I'm good, I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna I'm just gonna play the best that's just
Speaker 2: so good that you don't say anything and so command.
Speaker 2: With such command, I want to hear nothing from you.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 2: Thank god, that's over youth. Youth and collagen like really
Speaker 2: make you aggressive human being?
Speaker 1: What do you do you? Where do you think that
Speaker 1: energy went? If you don't have that vibration anymore?
Speaker 2: Oh, therapy and reconciling my traumas and a lot of weed.
Speaker 1: That'll help.
Speaker 2: I smoke a lot of weed so much.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: I read this interview with Martin Scorsese wh he was
Speaker 4: talking about when he first got it, first got out
Speaker 4: of film school, he had all the stuff he wanted
Speaker 4: to prove about what he could do, and then about
Speaker 4: three or four films in, it's like, just just tell
Speaker 4: a great story and tell it well. And I think
Speaker 4: that's just part of maturity as an artist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read that by your last album with Maverick,
Speaker 1: with that, with the label you initially signed to, that
Speaker 1: you finally felt like you can make what you what
Speaker 1: you heard? Oh yeah, what can you explain what that?
Speaker 1: What that means? Oh?
Speaker 2: Because that's what got me the first record deal is
Speaker 2: that you you have your whole life to make your
Speaker 2: first record, right, and you're you're so confident in your
Speaker 2: ideas and that's what got the people to notice you.
Speaker 2: By the second and third people start telling you what's
Speaker 2: gonna what could help you be successful, and you can
Speaker 2: take it or leave it or can crush you. And
Speaker 2: after making three records that no one was happy with,
Speaker 2: it just snapped in me, like I have to remember,
Speaker 2: like you know, this gift is not for me, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's I'm so blessed to have it, and
Speaker 2: I need to continue to wait for the transmissions and
Speaker 2: to be honest with the music because I rather fail
Speaker 2: doing what I was honest about. Then I jumped through
Speaker 2: all them hoops and made it different. And you still
Speaker 2: don't like me, or you still don't like it, you know.
Speaker 2: So all you have is your is just the feeling
Speaker 2: that I did my best. That's all I have. And
Speaker 2: what Don said is, eventually you know I'm not doing it.
Speaker 2: I eventually you realize you're not doing it for the collapse,
Speaker 2: and the people that really come to see you are
Speaker 2: looking for a hint of sincerity, just a little bit,
Speaker 2: because they pay I realize I pay money to go
Speaker 2: outside of myself for a good ninety minutes and watch
Speaker 2: someone do what they love. And so that's what I
Speaker 2: started to focus on.
Speaker 4: M I want to talk about those transmissions. Have you
Speaker 4: discovered a way to encourage them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I was I was fretting this interview
Speaker 2: for because I knew something would come up like that.
Speaker 2: I just I feel a hint of shame sometimes, but
Speaker 2: I pray. You know, I'm a believer, and the moments
Speaker 2: I have to myself are just and when I can
Speaker 2: hear my own thoughts, like I got rid of the phone,
Speaker 2: like I have like a type of flip phone, and
Speaker 2: I just I just try to create a space for
Speaker 2: myself to listen, and I really find that that helps creativity.
Speaker 2: And also I stop sometimes I just stop for months
Speaker 2: and don't do anything. You know, everything's so rapid. I'm
Speaker 2: old enough to remember when people made a record every
Speaker 2: three to four years. You know, it was only eight.
Speaker 1: Songs, right, not seventy seven.
Speaker 2: And so I just think, I know that's a reference,
Speaker 2: yeah that record.
Speaker 1: Both have American rec rooms now, by the way, too.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I love my virgo, my a
Speaker 2: virgo friend. Yeah. You just I don't know, I you
Speaker 2: just how do you do it? You tell me? It's like,
Speaker 2: how do you wait for you and you aid people
Speaker 2: in bringing, you know, things to fruition? How do you
Speaker 2: keep yourself buoyant? How do you stay interested in music
Speaker 2: where you're seen as someone not only are you planting
Speaker 2: the seeds, you're tilling the land, and you're also out
Speaker 2: there selling the product? Like, how do you maintain yeah, buoyancy?
Speaker 4: I draw inspiration from artists like you for real. You know,
Speaker 4: we've never really talked about it because we mostly limit
Speaker 4: ourselves to kind of almost musical small talk. And that's
Speaker 4: because I don't know how to approach you about what
Speaker 4: the essence of what you do because it's it's beyond.
Speaker 4: I can't describe it, and I don't know how to
Speaker 4: verbalize it. But I've been we've been doing. I do
Speaker 4: the same thing you do, produce records and play bass.
Speaker 4: But I don't know how you do what you do.
Speaker 4: Can't And it's not like it's happened once or twice.
Speaker 4: Every one of your records is just magnificent. You know
Speaker 4: how I feel about your records? You ever seen the
Speaker 4: pictures of a universe shot by the Hubble space telescope? Yes,
Speaker 4: I do follow this and you and you look at
Speaker 4: it and you get wait a minute, that little dot
Speaker 4: is a galaxy like the Milky Way, and we're looking
Speaker 4: at it one hundred million years ago because it's so
Speaker 4: far away and the colors are making That's how I
Speaker 4: feel about your records. I don't know how what you're
Speaker 4: plugged into, but I know I can't get there. But
Speaker 4: I've worked for a couple, just a couple other artists,
Speaker 4: you know. I think Wayne Shorter was one of those people.
Speaker 4: I think Bob Dylan is one of those people.
Speaker 2: We love Bob Dylan.
Speaker 4: Your sonic vision and what you're able to convey through
Speaker 4: sound is us the equivalent of what he can do,
Speaker 4: you know, with words, And I don't know how you
Speaker 4: do it. It's just mind blown.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that. I will carry that with
Speaker 2: me today and when I have my losses, I will
Speaker 2: think of that. Take that out. Yeah. I just yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm just I have really good friends now too. I
Speaker 2: mean that helps a lot. And we listen to a
Speaker 2: lot of music, Like we just try to what are
Speaker 2: you listening to? And you DJ the dressing room tonight
Speaker 2: and just you know, just try to listen and I
Speaker 2: tell I've been having some students, which is really put
Speaker 2: you in a strange position because I'm not dogmatic, but
Speaker 2: the only thing I tell them, if you don't like
Speaker 2: yourself and like to spend time with yourself, you're not
Speaker 2: going to get to that creative space that you dream
Speaker 2: and hope for. You have to really like to sit
Speaker 2: with yourself and explore the instrument or where the tools
Speaker 2: you're using you have to spend you have to relate
Speaker 2: to them like and master them, like painting or any
Speaker 2: other medium of art.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really great that's a really great point.
Speaker 1: Then alone time required to sit there and just go
Speaker 1: run something down hours at a time, you know, day
Speaker 1: in and day out, day after day.
Speaker 2: It requires a lot of a long time. It's hard
Speaker 2: to stomach sometimes. Yes, we'll be right back with more
Speaker 2: from Michelle and de yo Cello and a Browns. After
Speaker 2: the break, we're back with more from Michelle and deg
Speaker 2: yo Cello and a Browns.
Speaker 1: How's it? I mean, Abe's your drummer and your band
Speaker 1: my friend, your friend is my friend. It feels like you.
Speaker 1: It feels like you have like a like an actual
Speaker 1: like I know. The records are Michell's records. But it
Speaker 1: feels almost like you're creating within a band, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: How's it? How's it been playing with Abe?
Speaker 2: And oh it's great. I had a low after playing
Speaker 2: with Chris Dave. I didn't think I'd ever have that
Speaker 2: sort of feeling with a drummer that I felt. I
Speaker 2: felt like we were somehow like vulcan mind meld with
Speaker 2: rhythmic experiences. But I was doing a like a setting
Speaker 2: in at Berkeley, doing a little workshop and I met Abe.
Speaker 2: He's one of three drummers, and I could just tell.
Speaker 2: I was just like, you don't really need to be here,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to figure that out. And it's funny
Speaker 2: the instructor, he was not the one she that that
Speaker 2: instructor felt strongly about. And I was just like, I know.
Speaker 2: And so him and I would play during that whole time,
Speaker 2: and I was just like, I'm calling it, I'm calling
Speaker 2: you for a gig, and I called him, and since
Speaker 2: that day, it's just I'm just like I'm growing. He
Speaker 2: teaches me so much in terms of rhythm and harmony,
Speaker 2: such an accomplished musician, and taught me so much as
Speaker 2: a person. Chris too, who I met at during Bitter,
Speaker 2: which was a very hard time, a record people didn't like.
Speaker 2: But he introduced me to t Rex and all these
Speaker 2: other amazing bands. I would have not come in contact
Speaker 2: with Jebn Brune, I mean, just a genius programmer and player.
Speaker 2: I just feel like I've met people where I feel
Speaker 2: like we're growing. We're not in a time like sometimes
Speaker 2: you have a band in that band is a time
Speaker 2: you know you did this together and you're going to
Speaker 2: keep doing that the same way for the rest of
Speaker 2: your life. Right, and we and this is the first
Speaker 2: time I'm like, are you gonna play the keyboard on this?
Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe I'll play. Let's get some vibes happening.
Speaker 2: You know, everyone's open to change and growth, and we
Speaker 2: respect each other's individuality. And we've been through a lot together,
Speaker 2: both joyful and not so joyful. So there's a goodness,
Speaker 2: a good bond, that.
Speaker 1: Level of freedom, your your experience with with with with
Speaker 1: you guys now where it's like who's playing, who's playing? Well?
Speaker 3: How does that?
Speaker 1: How does that? How does that play out? Like when
Speaker 1: you're when you're writing, like do you are you? What
Speaker 1: do you? Does that has it impacted the way you write.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like Omnichord is a very special record because
Speaker 2: I had so much time off. You know, COVID was
Speaker 2: a life changing experience for me. I actually, I have
Speaker 2: a house in the woods, and I got to be
Speaker 2: in that house for long periods of time and just
Speaker 2: be with myself. And so I had some different instruments
Speaker 2: to work with, and we were working a lot on score,
Speaker 2: the four of us, the core group, We did like
Speaker 2: several TV shows and we made Yeah, we just made
Speaker 2: a lot of music together in a very compressed experience.
Speaker 2: So it changed the writing in the sense of like
Speaker 2: I have an idea, send it back, do this, do that,
Speaker 2: And I really wanted to get out of that, and
Speaker 2: so I collected a bunch of songs. But we went
Speaker 2: into the studio together to complete the writing. Like we
Speaker 2: knew that together things would It was just germination and
Speaker 2: then we'd all come together and things would come just
Speaker 2: start to sprout and grow.
Speaker 4: Can you describe that a little more in depth? Like
Speaker 4: you come in with a rough idea in a session
Speaker 4: and just we just set up and start playing, and
Speaker 4: you pull out the good ideas and you keep refining it.
Speaker 4: How does that work.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 5: First, I'll say I think that your demos are well
Speaker 5: on their own, like they're they're amazing, that they kind
Speaker 5: of it's all there somehow. And then you have you
Speaker 5: have a great ability of letting go and then trusting
Speaker 5: the people in the room to take your shell of
Speaker 5: an idea and make it their own. And I think
Speaker 5: that's the kind of the process. It's never really talked
Speaker 5: about like hey, I think it should be that you
Speaker 5: should play this drum beat or you should play these
Speaker 5: particular chords.
Speaker 3: It's just more like the feeling.
Speaker 5: It's like, let's try and tap into that feeling and
Speaker 5: how you would, you know, your your own version of that, Yeah,
Speaker 5: through your body?
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that what you're listening for them when you
Speaker 1: get demos?
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally for sure.
Speaker 5: It's just like what is the for instance, if it's
Speaker 5: like I'm trying to recreate a beat or something, I'm
Speaker 5: never Yeah, we're not trying to recreate out. We were
Speaker 5: just trying to like tap into the feeling of what
Speaker 5: the beat does or if it if the rhythm of
Speaker 5: it or maybe the lack of rhythm in it. So
Speaker 5: it's just like trying to you know, and like we're
Speaker 5: also a band, and like they can be conversations about
Speaker 5: where's the one, but that usually get to that if
Speaker 5: we get to that place, that's if we're trying to
Speaker 5: like quantify where it is. Usually that's not a good thing.
Speaker 5: So it's just like if you hear it there, that's fine. Also,
Speaker 5: if you get to know me, this is a facade.
Speaker 2: I don't really talk a lot, and I'm like, not,
Speaker 2: we're never all going to get together, Like let's talk
Speaker 2: about where the music goes. I'm going for that tone
Speaker 2: and you know, not that person. I'll just I have
Speaker 2: to trust the musician or I get a music, I'm
Speaker 2: getting a part that someone's trying to do something, and
Speaker 2: I'd rather you be inspired by the part to do something,
Speaker 2: not do my part, because that's how it feels as
Speaker 2: being the so called leader, and I think that's kind
Speaker 2: of limiting to the song and the Omnichoor Real book
Speaker 2: was my hope, like when my father gave me that
Speaker 2: book on that first gig, was to create things that
Speaker 2: musicians like to play, like their foundational understandings of harmony
Speaker 2: and a rhythm and a time. But you have to
Speaker 2: add something to it, you know, to make it feel
Speaker 2: good for us. And that's how I approached the last record,
Speaker 2: you know, just like here's some ideas, but you know,
Speaker 2: A broke some songs and then and we just all
Speaker 2: sort of come together and create.
Speaker 3: You know, it feels communal.
Speaker 2: It's communal community and a lot of ruthless editing.
Speaker 3: Show as a master editor.
Speaker 2: Ruthless. I'm a ruthless editor.
Speaker 4: Do you actually sit behind it? Push people away and
Speaker 4: behind the computer.
Speaker 2: I make people leave so I can sit and listen
Speaker 2: because the talking while you're listening you can't. I can't
Speaker 2: deal with, Like, if we're gonna listen to the track back,
Speaker 2: we're gonna listen, and I try not to listen, which
Speaker 2: I've just I just worked on a project that's really
Speaker 2: serious jazz, and I really struggle when we come back
Speaker 2: to the listening and they only listen to their part
Speaker 2: and they don't listen as a whole. You can't tell
Speaker 2: me what the bass player play. You're just listening to yourself.
Speaker 2: And it becomes my topic. And so that's my only
Speaker 2: other thing. Like when we listen, we're going to listen,
Speaker 2: and you can tell because we know each other. When
Speaker 2: we'll go like let's do it again, we just immediately
Speaker 2: go back and do it again, or we go like
Speaker 2: take a break, just step away from it and just
Speaker 2: let it sit for a minute instead of finding a problem.
Speaker 2: Because sometimes I'm learning too after time. I mean, are
Speaker 2: you really nitpicking? Or can you trust yourself now? After
Speaker 2: you've after thirty years of making records? At what point
Speaker 2: do you go like, that's a good take. And luckily
Speaker 2: I have this a younger person who's like he'll just
Speaker 2: tell you like, no, I'm not that's great, I'm good.
Speaker 2: I'm not doing it again, you know Chris too. I
Speaker 2: have people around me like no, that's good. Stop wow, wow,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you're right, Like did on that jazz.
Speaker 1: Project you were talking about, Yeah, did you get over
Speaker 1: that hump of everyone just listening to their Well.
Speaker 2: I just observe the energy I just had. Now I
Speaker 2: would never have. I just observe. I watched them and
Speaker 2: I listen, and then I have to figure out how
Speaker 2: to or communicate something that perhaps they could do differently,
Speaker 2: you know. But I'm learning. It's a different time now
Speaker 2: from the conversation. We were having this conversation about like
Speaker 2: legacy and like you have to learn from the past
Speaker 2: and you study a certain thing to get good at it.
Speaker 2: But I'm encountering a lot of youth who are very studied,
Speaker 2: and I just wonder. I'm now asking the question, how
Speaker 2: do I get you to let go of perfectionism or
Speaker 2: some idea of how something should be so you can
Speaker 2: flail and within that find something else. And that's my
Speaker 2: only dogma. I remember doing sessions with Shaka Khan, and
Speaker 2: I used to just be enamored with my friend David Gamson,
Speaker 2: and she would sing like ten lemons, I mean, twenty
Speaker 2: fifty lemons, incredible lemons too, like preserved lemons, just and
Speaker 2: then she now and then then then she'd be then
Speaker 2: she'd be like I feel it, I feel something in
Speaker 2: that one, and then she'd got to build. But there's
Speaker 2: never this like yeah, she's just like you know sometimes
Speaker 2: you know, it's.
Speaker 1: Fun, unbothered by it.
Speaker 2: I'm unbothered by I don't care who's listening. Yeah, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid who's listening. I can just I might
Speaker 2: make like That's how I'm gonna find where I want
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 4: If you're producing an artist as opposed to being the artist,
Speaker 4: how does it change your approach to the.
Speaker 2: Studio depends on what kind of music. It depends on
Speaker 2: what kind of music. When it's like a production where
Speaker 2: it's like we're programming, it's like we're writing vocal part,
Speaker 2: you know, like a just a certain sort of pop
Speaker 2: R and B thing, it's really a detailed interaction. Yeah, minutia,
Speaker 2: I gotta get to a lot of just getting to
Speaker 2: getting the person comfortable. But I'm dying to do more
Speaker 2: sessions where like, let's make a record in three days,
Speaker 2: we're just gonna play live. We're gonna have one day
Speaker 2: of rehearsal, we're gonna play it. You're gonna trust yourself.
Speaker 2: And I find a lot of people aren't really up
Speaker 2: for that. Nope, But I just try to be. And
Speaker 2: I guess it's my age and coming to understand myself
Speaker 2: as a two spirit person. I think there's part of
Speaker 2: me that understands competition, the need for self expression as
Speaker 2: a musician, and that wanting to soar, And then the
Speaker 2: other part of me understands, like, you are giving of yourself.
Speaker 2: How can I make this a good experience for you? Sorry?
Speaker 2: Makes me cry, Like how can I help you make
Speaker 2: something and feel really good about it? And I'm glad
Speaker 2: I'm learning to balance those two natures. One that's like
Speaker 2: I hear you, man, let's let's hit beast mode, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: like you're here with your brothers and sisters and you
Speaker 2: listen hit beast mode. But then there's the part of
Speaker 2: me that there has to be someone there who's like,
Speaker 2: how you feeling Okay? You know you need to take
Speaker 2: a break, You need to walk away from that, Just
Speaker 2: walk away from that. Yeah, let's try and let's try
Speaker 2: another color.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I'm not there to tear you down, which I come
Speaker 2: from the eighties and nineties where the kind of the
Speaker 2: producer was there to poke the bear. You know, there's
Speaker 2: this idea that this should be like a like a
Speaker 2: tussle a little bit. And I don't think I want
Speaker 2: to be that. I want to be the mixture of
Speaker 2: Rudy Van Gelder, Craig Street, Brian Enoa, I read from
Speaker 2: Man and Mary Oliver, you know, and and also not
Speaker 2: be afraid of the dark, like like there's a writer
Speaker 2: I love named Sheila Hetty, and just try to get
Speaker 2: to you in a way where you're just not saying
Speaker 2: like singing and dancing, you're I need I want you
Speaker 2: to have an experience at the music.
Speaker 1: After this last break, we'll be back with the rest
Speaker 1: of our conversation with Michelle and degio Cello and a Browns.
Speaker 1: Here's the rest of our conversation. I mean, maybe we
Speaker 1: can talk about some of those people, what those people
Speaker 1: mean to you. Rudy Van Gelder is a name that
Speaker 1: doesn't get.
Speaker 2: Talked about Sonic and the Blade. He's Sonic in the
Speaker 2: Blade ultimately ruthless editor Craig Street creates an environment for
Speaker 2: you where you can do your best. You know, Don
Speaker 2: was people person, wright studio, sonic genius, arrangement enhancer. That's
Speaker 2: what I've found out a couple of things about you know,
Speaker 2: there's that because that's a part of production I feel
Speaker 2: is lost, the arrangement aspect. You can have a great melody,
Speaker 2: great head, kill it, but who's gonna help you put
Speaker 2: that in a put the steak on a nice plate
Speaker 2: instead of the trash can lid. It's a great steak still, right,
Speaker 2: But how you serve it to me is gonna That's
Speaker 2: gonna affect me. There's like, there's just so many styles
Speaker 2: of production too. Yeah, he's producing in this period of
Speaker 2: time as a young person. I think it means different things.
Speaker 2: It means I made the whole track for you and
Speaker 2: you sing on.
Speaker 3: It, and I think it's good.
Speaker 2: Budgets too, I had we had budgets to go where we.
Speaker 5: Could small, small budgets. In these days, everyone can make
Speaker 5: something that sounds great in a room by themselves.
Speaker 2: But I don't envy him because I also grew up
Speaker 2: with deadlines. I made music when there's like you mix
Speaker 2: that in two days. That's done. I got to take
Speaker 2: the tape off and turn the dobs back and zero
Speaker 2: the board so I can do the next mix. There's
Speaker 2: no going back, because going back costs a whole mix.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's so many like takes. You don't
Speaker 2: have to Yes, you can piece me together. I don't
Speaker 2: have to be able to play through the whole track.
Speaker 2: That's a difference, and I think that affects how things feel.
Speaker 4: Are you too young to have worked with analog tape?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I totally know how to cut tape. I
Speaker 2: went to engineering school with Bob yespec. He mixed sailing.
Speaker 2: Christopher Crust one of my favorite. But yeah, I'm a luddite.
Speaker 2: I'm not keeping up. I'm really one of those people
Speaker 2: like I missed the time it takes for the tape
Speaker 2: to rewind, so you're just not listening to each section.
Speaker 2: I love, like, go to Bar forty and you're just
Speaker 2: on forty to forty three. Go to Bar ten and
Speaker 2: we'll stay there, and I'm just like, there's no song
Speaker 2: to me anymore. I'm like, I've lost all contacts. He'll
Speaker 2: tell you, I'll be just like, I'll come back when
Speaker 2: y'all are done, just like I have no idea what's
Speaker 2: going on. You know, I don't who listens that way.
Speaker 2: And I'm one of those people. I want to make
Speaker 2: songs for the people who are in their prius and
Speaker 2: they trying to get to work or get to the
Speaker 2: charger before anyone else, and they just want to happen
Speaker 2: good time, and it sounds good. It feels good, you know.
Speaker 1: The new record feels really good, really really good. I
Speaker 1: appreciate that it's a lot of you. I text and
Speaker 1: abe like a couple of nights. Gods, Like, there's so much.
Speaker 1: There's so many different singers too, on the record, like
Speaker 1: you and Jade Hicks, who I don't know who Jaye
Speaker 1: Hicks is. That sounds incredible to guests.
Speaker 2: Guess you should know who Jay Nicks is. Yeah. They
Speaker 2: are a family of singers, Justin Hicks, Jade Hicks and
Speaker 2: Canetia Miller, the Slates. Yeah, and they're from Indiana. They
Speaker 2: are preachers children and but that's the other thing. Sorry
Speaker 2: if I'm long winded. I was given so many great
Speaker 2: opportunities by other musicians, and I really feel the omni
Speaker 2: chord is all is that for me. I think they
Speaker 2: are some of the greatest songwriters and singers. There's Tandese
Speaker 2: mess Why it's from South African, who I think is
Speaker 2: a genius. I just produced something that's coming out with
Speaker 2: her soon. I mean, yeah, I just want to share
Speaker 2: all that I've been able to experience as a musician,
Speaker 2: travel and playing for people. And that's what all the
Speaker 2: vocalists means for me, Like no one does anything alone.
Speaker 2: And also I'm not a dinosaur. I can see the
Speaker 2: meteor coming and as I watch other musicians age and change,
Speaker 2: because I'm fifty six and there's no way I'm trying
Speaker 2: to be up there singing and dancing for the rest
Speaker 2: of my life. And I just want to be a
Speaker 2: good springboard for other people to do their craft and
Speaker 2: do their thing and it's a blessing. I learned so much.
Speaker 2: There's an amazing song I think is I think it's
Speaker 2: one it's on the Dylan level lyrically, which is Gatsby,
Speaker 2: which is written by some more Pender Hues, and like
Speaker 2: hearing that song, it just it's that feeling you have
Speaker 2: when you're like God, it's saying everything I wish I
Speaker 2: could say. And I hadn't had that feeling since hearing
Speaker 2: Prince when I was sixteen and I heard that song
Speaker 2: and I was like, you know, and that's my way.
Speaker 2: I think he's a genius and I want more people
Speaker 2: to be exposed to him. And then it shows the arrangement,
Speaker 2: talents and gifts of Corey Henry who plays on Who Takes,
Speaker 2: because if you listen to both version, that's what I'm hoping,
Speaker 2: like here where he took the harmony, you know, has
Speaker 2: Joel Ross where I'm like virtuostic. But I really loved
Speaker 2: setting him into a more African diaspora with the butriimba,
Speaker 2: the vibes on a few of the tunes where it's
Speaker 2: not like people are listening for his blazing it's just like,
Speaker 2: look how he rhythmically is fitting here and his song
Speaker 2: writing improvisation. You know, I just wanted to be like
Speaker 2: people do a lot of things Josh john Johnson. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just if I may talk about him. I was here
Speaker 2: in LA to score for a TV show and I
Speaker 2: lived here months at a time, months like and I
Speaker 2: would go to the ETA to see Josh club in.
Speaker 3: Holland Park be unfortunately not around anymore.
Speaker 2: But rest in peace, I know, right, that's really sad.
Speaker 2: I know that that was my suoker, that was my like.
Speaker 2: I would just go there and I know I would
Speaker 2: hear something interesting and I heard him play. And then
Speaker 2: that one day I was watching TV and he was
Speaker 2: the keyboard player for Bridges Beyond Bridges and there was
Speaker 2: just all these things coming on. It was so musical,
Speaker 2: and I wanted a producer because also eventually you need
Speaker 2: someone to help you. I'm lucky I have real friends
Speaker 2: with like, let's get some help. And I wanted someone
Speaker 2: who we all respected and loved and who knew us.
Speaker 2: And Josh Johnson said yes. And that was like a
Speaker 2: game changer because he brought something none of us had,
Speaker 2: and he wasn't attached to us and attached to me
Speaker 2: being something.
Speaker 4: What was it that he brought.
Speaker 2: Openness, clarity, virtuosity, and harmony and melodic sonic textures that
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have got to on the sacks. He
Speaker 2: allowed me to bring Oliver Lakes. Oliver can compose. He
Speaker 2: can't play anymore because of Parkinson's, and I felt Josh
Speaker 2: had a similar spirit in essence of heart. But also
Speaker 2: he could take the charts and bring them to life.
Speaker 1: So that's that's Josh playing with Oliver composed. Yes, I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also no attachment to us being anything, you know,
Speaker 2: which we've experienced.
Speaker 5: Think we we we behaved better amongst ourselves in the studio,
Speaker 5: having his fifth band member. Essentially he would play with
Speaker 5: us sometimes but I'll just just listen to the controller
Speaker 5: and we we would. We were trying our best because
Speaker 5: you know, we tour a lot, we're all together a lot,
Speaker 5: so there's band dynamics which exist, and like it was
Speaker 5: great to have somebody there. It just made it all
Speaker 5: feel like just a bit more relaxed. And you're Billy
Speaker 5: Presston he was, Yeah, he was in some way Preston
Speaker 5: So yeah, he was at Fifth Beatle.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you recorded with Billy Pressure right, Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: On the second round.
Speaker 1: A few cuts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's oh god, just touch it you just
Speaker 2: your neck, Bob. I can't explain, it's nothing like it.
Speaker 2: You're just like, oh my god, what was.
Speaker 1: It like being around it?
Speaker 2: You really want to go there?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I want to go there.
Speaker 2: Well, David, I had a son at the time, and
Speaker 2: David Gamson told me not to bring my son to
Speaker 2: the session, to be honest, and he was just someone
Speaker 2: who lived in my mind on a record, so I
Speaker 2: didn't really go with any expectations. I just went to play.
Speaker 2: But he was another one, very little talking, very little talking,
Speaker 2: and we put up the and he would just play.
Speaker 2: He'd be like, you liked that one, and David would
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, do you know you got another one
Speaker 2: in yet? And he would do another one and be
Speaker 2: different and fantastic, and then just to the point where
Speaker 2: Dave was like, let me not abuse this man's kindness.
Speaker 2: But it was just like watching a master. I was
Speaker 2: very young then and not so adept that I should
Speaker 2: have went and talked to him, but I just had
Speaker 2: others around me who were like, let's leave him alone
Speaker 2: at that period of time in his life, you know.
Speaker 2: But I mean, it's amazing to have. It's Billy Preston,
Speaker 2: not so much for the Beatles, but for me, you know,
Speaker 2: that's Nat King Cole's. You know. It was like seeing
Speaker 2: someone my parents loved. It was like adoration and also
Speaker 2: just reverie.
Speaker 4: He was the original B three guy, you know, but
Speaker 4: it wasn't in It was in church, yes, and.
Speaker 2: He was.
Speaker 4: He played with a little Richard. You know, they didn't
Speaker 4: have B three and they didn't have rock and roll before.
Speaker 4: And I always thought what he did with the drawbars,
Speaker 4: he painted like you paint. He created sonic worlds that
Speaker 4: were very emotional by playing with the drawbars, which is
Speaker 4: getting to be kind of a lost art.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got it, you come, you gotta come. You
Speaker 2: gotta hear this cat named Jake Sherman though he's the truth.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the bus the organ for me is like
Speaker 2: I call it the chocolate spaceship. It just uh it is.
Speaker 2: It just can take you somewhere. And that's the thing
Speaker 2: I did notice. It was not only was he like
Speaker 2: rhythmically just I hit that word funky, but he was
Speaker 2: just the first ever in life.
Speaker 1: He has the most unique pocket inane.
Speaker 2: But you're right, he could create. He it was like
Speaker 2: he was playing a synth and if you listen, he
Speaker 2: plays on who is he and it's like it's chucking,
Speaker 2: But then you hear these other colors that he's just
Speaker 2: doing in between the verses, and it's him like padding
Speaker 2: with the bars. That session had Paul Riser, and I
Speaker 2: remember just being enamored by him, to be honest, that's
Speaker 2: what I Meeting him was like a dream. He he
Speaker 2: did the arrangement to Rocket Love and we found him
Speaker 2: like he was unhoused and in Detroit, in Detroit, and
Speaker 2: we flew him in and it was really hard because
Speaker 2: this was before you know, just getting him the play
Speaker 2: ain't ticket getting him on the plane, and he finally
Speaker 2: got there and he literally came with nothing, like just
Speaker 2: his body, and we were like, do you have any charts?
Speaker 3: He's like, right here, take me to Kinks. Take me.
Speaker 4: He used to write stuff, you know, in a taxicab
Speaker 4: on the way to the sessions, fright.
Speaker 2: Which is frightening because you have old session waiting for
Speaker 2: the guy rocket Love.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 2: That's that's what took over the Billy President session.
Speaker 1: I never listened to the strings and not really.
Speaker 2: On house with nothing. Okay, that's that's the who. That's
Speaker 2: to me, that's the that Motown world must have been rough.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine what.
Speaker 1: Made you go, what made you get want to get him?
Speaker 1: For that record, Papa was rolling stone.
Speaker 2: Those strings and Tammy stuff. Yeah, he's quint essential to
Speaker 2: your listening experience, and no one knows it's him.
Speaker 4: He did never too much. He did that Lucid Andros,
Speaker 4: he did never too much.
Speaker 1: Those strings are ridiculous.
Speaker 4: That's the whole normal Wifield stuff. He did all the
Speaker 4: Marvin and Tammy, which is just.
Speaker 3: All encyclopedia right there, and.
Speaker 1: All in his head.
Speaker 2: Take many Kinko's, take.
Speaker 4: That, and the sweetest guy.
Speaker 2: He just wanted to go, like like I want to
Speaker 2: go eat. I remember that to me and DA were
Speaker 2: like you want to eat? What do you want to eat?
Speaker 2: He was, That's what I want and we're like, let's
Speaker 2: take it. Eat whatever you want to do.
Speaker 4: You know, he wrote, but what becomes a broken heart?
Speaker 1: He did? Yeah, Oh I didn't know me?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 4: Wow, which is real deep those voicings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just just like that is yeah, amazing, amazing hindsight. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it all comes back to me. I just remember being
Speaker 2: completely enchanted by him.
Speaker 1: You got on those first couple of records too, you
Speaker 1: got you You have to have a play with Benny
Speaker 1: Moppin and Bill Summers too.
Speaker 2: Yeah and again and why do I want? You know?
Speaker 2: Headtimes life changing as the bass player, the reason I
Speaker 2: played flat wounds? Yeah, yeah, I remember here. I was
Speaker 2: just like, okay, give it the flat wound game. That's
Speaker 2: when you changed the flat immediately.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking. I was thinking about how you
Speaker 1: referenced a couple of times that Bitter no one like
Speaker 1: you kept you keep. I feel like you said a
Speaker 1: couple of times no maybe, but no one liked Bitter.
Speaker 2: That's the best selling one though.
Speaker 1: Now we're right.
Speaker 2: So what I mean when when when I handed in.
Speaker 1: And so, did that color your perception of the album?
Speaker 1: The label's reaction? Uh?
Speaker 2: Yeah it was, Yes, it did. Yeah. I started the
Speaker 2: record with David Gampson, who had did the first two
Speaker 2: and they and we went in for a meeting and
Speaker 2: they didn't like it, and they fired him right there
Speaker 2: in front of me.
Speaker 1: What did they not like? Do you remember?
Speaker 2: They told me I should make black music. Okay, to
Speaker 2: be honest, if you want to be honest, was it?
Speaker 1: Was it? A black guy?
Speaker 2: Was the head? Of the label said that and along
Speaker 2: with two other and our people, you.
Speaker 1: Should black did no reference to what black would.
Speaker 2: I didn't have the wherewithal to come back with any
Speaker 2: Woody repartee at that time. I'm kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I wasn't really I just was crushed. I think I am.
Speaker 2: I'm like literal spice, you know. I just was like
Speaker 2: I just couldn't compute. And at that time, I look
Speaker 2: at It's funny you asked me that question about was
Speaker 2: I sober Bidder is completely Sober Records. It was the
Speaker 2: moment like I wanted to change my life. I moved
Speaker 2: from an urban situation to la I was like, you
Speaker 2: have palm trees. I'd rather struggle here by the beach
Speaker 2: and like change. Like it was like I felt I
Speaker 2: was at the best I was in my life on
Speaker 2: that record. And then I handed it in and they
Speaker 2: were just like, no, absolutely not. And so I had
Speaker 2: a little bit of the budget left and I called
Speaker 2: my dear friend Craig Street. He produced Norah Jones, Sondra Wilson,
Speaker 2: just a life changing person my life. I met him
Speaker 2: when I was like twenty. He was plastering walls and
Speaker 2: he heard my demo and got me some work. But
Speaker 2: I called him and that's where I met Chris Bruce
Speaker 2: and Doyle bram Hall. Wendy Melvowe plays on that record,
Speaker 2: Abe Laboreal Junior. Just yeah. So the record here as
Speaker 2: Bitter Now is like I was feeling great and told
Speaker 2: completely clear my mind and you do all that and
Speaker 2: we did it for did it in five days. It's
Speaker 2: a five day record, you know, five day record. Because
Speaker 2: that's the thing about Craig too, why I want to
Speaker 2: bring that back. Working with him in some great experiences
Speaker 2: making records, and they're done in a with a deadline,
Speaker 2: with a certain amount of time. And the bidder was
Speaker 2: one of those like this is what we got, We're done,
Speaker 2: it's done, go mix it.
Speaker 1: So you worked on it first with David Gamson and
Speaker 1: then Craig Stree. How much of the stuff with Gamson
Speaker 1: is still on It's still on the record that we.
Speaker 2: Hear nothing Nothing. The only song I knew I wanted
Speaker 2: to do with David because I really liked singing with
Speaker 2: David was fool of Me.
Speaker 1: That's a great song beyond the record labels, you know,
Speaker 1: rebuke of it, which you know, whatever, did it? Did
Speaker 1: it feel How did that feel putting that out there?
Speaker 1: I mean that almost feels like almost it feels like
Speaker 1: the the the musical equivalent of like putting an autobiography
Speaker 1: out of almost like wow, I'm really this is.
Speaker 2: I mean, where's the artists? Are self absorbed? I wasn't
Speaker 2: thinking about that at that time, Like this is what
Speaker 2: I feel. You're in your own cathartic self absorption. I
Speaker 2: don't really, I didn't really think about any of that.
Speaker 2: It was just I had to go tour record with
Speaker 2: no support. That's that's all I was like, I have
Speaker 2: a record that no one and they kind of shelved
Speaker 2: it and that was cool. And that shows you the
Speaker 2: beauty of the pollination of film, TV and music. Someone
Speaker 2: used it in a film and then that changed the
Speaker 2: whole trajectory of the record. You know, I learned a
Speaker 2: lot from that experience. It made me want to go
Speaker 2: and hide, But at the same time, that's the moment
Speaker 2: I had to realize that's where you click in and go.
Speaker 2: They're not important, They're They're just a patron. I don't
Speaker 2: feel this about you. See that's funny. This is why
Speaker 2: this relationship is so different being on Blue Note now
Speaker 2: because I am older and more present in myself. I
Speaker 2: see that we're working together to bring something fruition. I
Speaker 2: was at it. That was at a time on Maverick
Speaker 2: where you're just the tax write off. Are the artists?
Speaker 2: I needed you to make hits, you know, And so
Speaker 2: when they didn't like it, I just kind of moved
Speaker 2: on in my mind of like I've got I met
Speaker 2: Wendy melvow And and Lisa, you know, Coleman. I'm good. I
Speaker 2: played with Abe Laborel and we made loops together. I'm good.
Speaker 2: I met Doyle Bramhall, who is like you meet Doyle.
Speaker 2: He came to that session with with Wendy. They were
Speaker 2: working on his record, and that is like yeah. I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm good I met him. And I only
Speaker 2: say this because they always remind me I met him.
Speaker 2: I was like, if I played like you, I wouldn't
Speaker 2: need nobody, no girlfriend, no nothing, if I'd just be
Speaker 2: with myself listening to myself, just like look at me,
Speaker 2: go I'm amazingment Oh no, he is like amazing. I
Speaker 2: just would be like, I don't need you. And Doyle
Speaker 2: I want to he just he is. He is. He's
Speaker 2: floating around the world. It'll come together soon. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: okay's floating.
Speaker 1: Did you did you meet you knew Prince before Lisa
Speaker 1: and Wendy?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 2: No, uh.
Speaker 3: I was.
Speaker 2: I had a choice to sign from signed to his
Speaker 2: label or Madonna's label, or Warner Brothers Paisley Park, Warners
Speaker 2: by Maverick, and I was working with Benny Medina and
Speaker 2: Peter Warner. Yeah, they were the people that brought me there.
Speaker 2: And Peter and Benny were like, do not go to
Speaker 2: the Prince label, you know, they were nice about yeah,
Speaker 2: And I was like really, I was just like because
Speaker 2: that was gonna be my I was like, I'm going there,
Speaker 2: and they were like, nah, I don't go there.
Speaker 1: Go here.
Speaker 2: It's the You'll be the second artist they signed. You'll
Speaker 2: get a lot of just it's all under Warners. Just
Speaker 2: go here. And I was like okay, And so I
Speaker 2: chose that. But I talked him on the phone. But
Speaker 2: him and I never really had good interactions. I can't
Speaker 2: say why, but I've you know, I loved him. He's
Speaker 2: like a great inspiration. I think him and I would
Speaker 2: have had a much better relationship outside of cameras and
Speaker 2: sort of things like that. I think he had a
Speaker 2: lot of expectations, and I'm a pretty regular person. I
Speaker 2: am really easy going, and there's a lot of energy
Speaker 2: and stuff around him at that time, and so I
Speaker 2: just sort of knew I should pull back and he
Speaker 2: could be. He could be harsh if you did something
Speaker 2: he felt you shouldn't do. Yeah, you went to the
Speaker 2: studio with him, and studio with him, you did a
Speaker 2: couple of times in Minnesota in New York.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like what did you guys work? Was it for
Speaker 1: you or for him?
Speaker 3: For him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's it's a lot, it's a it's a
Speaker 2: lot of it's it's uh, how do I say this.
Speaker 2: I met Wendy and Lisa before I met him, and
Speaker 2: they told me, maintain yourself. Don't drink the kool aid,
Speaker 2: just to be honest. That's what they said verbatim. And
Speaker 2: I had to and I could see how you like,
Speaker 2: it's mesmerizing to point you lose yourself, And I just refused.
Speaker 2: I don't. I didn't want that in my life at
Speaker 2: that time. Just just the aura, the aura, the demand,
Speaker 2: the view, plus I worked. I mean, yeah, he just
Speaker 2: could be. He could be difficult and opinionated in a way.
Speaker 2: Because I try not to.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I never want to speak ill of those who are
Speaker 2: not here to speak for themselves. But it was complicated.
Speaker 2: I wish I could. I can't imagine what it was
Speaker 2: like to be him. I really cannot unfathomable, you know,
Speaker 2: not just the gift, but just being someone where like
Speaker 2: you had to stare at him. It was the most
Speaker 2: captivating person.
Speaker 1: You know. Do you remember first encountering his music?
Speaker 2: Oh exactly, I know exactly where I was. I was twelve,
Speaker 2: and I was at a party my parents were at
Speaker 2: and they were all upset, was playing cards or something,
Speaker 2: and it was the four U record and I played
Speaker 2: it and I never heard anything like that in my life.
Speaker 2: And it's the moment I said, I'm going to be
Speaker 2: a musician. And that's what That's what he means to me.
Speaker 2: That's the moment I was like, I'm going to be
Speaker 2: a musician. Wow, that's what I want to do.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: What drew you to it? The photo? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the photo and going by the afro and he's
Speaker 2: sitting on the back naked on a horse. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: you're twelve, you know your home, it's nothing like it.
Speaker 1: Just putting myself in your situation, if at that time
Speaker 1: I had heard Prince was interested in signing, they would
Speaker 1: have I would have been there would have been nothing stopping,
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing stopping, yes.
Speaker 2: Sheena Easton. He wrote, you know he put out music
Speaker 2: and he wouldn't let the person be. Yes, there were
Speaker 2: you know, like having your own label you have to do.
Speaker 2: You want to make there's a brand to consider, But
Speaker 2: at that time he was the brand, and I think
Speaker 2: I want to make something different. And to be honest,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it, I think I was just a
Speaker 2: little to urban for him. I'm a little I have
Speaker 2: a little more edge less, a little less Hollywood. I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm not the lights don't fool me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, being labeled to Madonna's car, I guess there's a
Speaker 1: little different.
Speaker 2: It's a little different, different vibrations, different parties to different parties.
Speaker 1: I'd like to have seen both. Well, do you remember
Speaker 1: like going to one of your first party were just like,
Speaker 1: you know, a Madonna.
Speaker 2: One of my first parties was the book party with
Speaker 2: the sex book. Yeah, okay, yeah, a different different thing.
Speaker 1: Came there, Yes, all of him? Wow, that's wow.
Speaker 5: Didn't you go into the like you went on like
Speaker 5: just to meet her at the library or something you
Speaker 5: invited at the library.
Speaker 2: I realized you can't come to the library, girl. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the met met. I was like, let's go to the
Speaker 2: met And then I was like oh, and then all
Speaker 2: these people came. I was like, this is not I
Speaker 2: just warned. Yeah, she agreed to Yeah, she's like great
Speaker 2: and and then yeah yeah, and I was like, that's
Speaker 2: I don't that's not happening. But that's the prince thing too,
Speaker 2: just like we can't go hang out never. It's never
Speaker 2: going to be like I can cook for you and
Speaker 2: make it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's just you're larger than life.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize until we were going to do this
Speaker 1: that you your contribution to Bedtime Story that was supposed
Speaker 1: to be Tupac that sposed to be yeah, rest in peace. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you know that at the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we all knew that.
Speaker 1: At the time.
Speaker 2: I was like, we have a problem, you know, like
Speaker 2: record needs to be done because it was very close
Speaker 2: to that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Mm hm did you meet did you meet podcast? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, several times.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Such a kind man in my experience of him.
Speaker 1: And he spent the time in Baltimore too, So I
Speaker 1: guess you would understand that.
Speaker 2: You remember the last time we were it was a
Speaker 2: Ben Harper show. We ran ran to each other, Ben Harper,
Speaker 2: Ben Harper.
Speaker 1: What a time to be alive, Man Harper.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I met Rick James. That's a big one for me.
Speaker 2: Rick James and Elder Barge came to one of my shows,
Speaker 2: and I do brag about that.
Speaker 1: To get they came together.
Speaker 2: Together together and they hung out together the whole night,
Speaker 2: and they were on ten and they came in the
Speaker 2: dressing room and sung for us at the piano. It
Speaker 2: was incredible. They said, just was jamming out. I do
Speaker 2: brag about that one. They came. They came to your
Speaker 2: show and sang my show and then hung on address
Speaker 2: and saying they were they was feeling it. They were
Speaker 2: very alive together. Yeah, that's good. That's a highlight for me.
Speaker 2: And Larry Graham. Larry Graham and Marcus Miller stood on
Speaker 2: the side of the stage while I put that was
Speaker 2: that's that's hard.
Speaker 1: What would you know.
Speaker 2: I was still young and college full of college, and
Speaker 2: I was just like, I'm gonna play the hell out
Speaker 2: of the base.
Speaker 4: So it inspired you rather than I would.
Speaker 2: Intimidate, who's your favorite bass player.
Speaker 4: Probably James Jamison, Willie Dixon.
Speaker 3: I just.
Speaker 4: You know Ron Carter too.
Speaker 2: You know how's your right?
Speaker 4: You blew my mind. I was telling him that we
Speaker 4: were on the phone maybe a year ago, and I
Speaker 4: was telling her I took a lesson from Ron Carter
Speaker 4: and he showed me things about releasing the notes, and
Speaker 4: I asked her how she did it, but she misunderstood.
Speaker 4: But I was saying it, and she on me when
Speaker 4: she did it, which she said, Oh, I released it
Speaker 4: like in rhythm with the high hat. You releasing the
Speaker 4: note is as important to the groove as attacking the note.
Speaker 4: And that just never crossed my mind before Wow.
Speaker 2: Went back, told the go go thing too, you got
Speaker 2: to make all that space.
Speaker 4: Well it opened. I worked on that like I was
Speaker 4: on tour when I talked to her, and that's all
Speaker 4: I thought about for the rest of the tour. It
Speaker 4: just and it changed. It wasn't long enough to internalize
Speaker 4: it fully, but it changed the way I approached it.
Speaker 4: And when you change that and you changed the next
Speaker 4: note you choose, so it it set the tour alight.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 4: It was fantastic that, like six months I rode that wave.
Speaker 1: What is your relationship with America. I guess. You know.
Speaker 1: You grew up in the capital, the nation's capital. Your
Speaker 1: dad was a military man, joined the military. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: took the as fab test. I was hoping to get
Speaker 1: into the Air Force, but I only scored high enough
Speaker 1: to get in the Army. I don't know if they
Speaker 1: tell people that, like, yeah, I just I just thought
Speaker 1: there was no future. The way I grew up, it
Speaker 1: was really hard, and not being educated, I thought that
Speaker 1: would be the path for me. But could you imagine
Speaker 1: me with.
Speaker 2: A gun exactly being angry? Can you imagine the energy
Speaker 2: I have on that first record and I have got Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'd be a different person, you know, But my father
Speaker 2: was in the military, and that military changed my life.
Speaker 1: Did you watch your.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yes, yeah, everyone did that. I'm I'm born
Speaker 2: in August twenty ninth, nineteen sixty eight. Okay, I am
Speaker 2: as old as civil rights is. And when I was
Speaker 2: growing up, you know, my mother was like, you need
Speaker 2: to get a post office job, or you need to
Speaker 2: figure out to go to community college or join the military.
Speaker 2: Those were your options. Like that's what was expected of me.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: My mother has a fourth grade education and my father
Speaker 2: only graduated high school, so you know that their dream
Speaker 2: for me was just to find something solid. So of course, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, my relationship with America is I am the
Speaker 2: offspring of an obsolete machine. You can't legislate kindness, You
Speaker 2: can't make a law that's going to make you treat
Speaker 2: me differently from you know, by the color of my skin.
Speaker 2: But I can't imagine what it was like for them
Speaker 2: to grow up way before me and have the experiences
Speaker 2: they had, raise children and try to be a healthy
Speaker 2: human being. I was angry at my parents, angry at
Speaker 2: my upbringing, and I have to realize that we're all
Speaker 2: all Americans are subject to living somewhere where it's sort
Speaker 2: of a revisionist history. I have to realize I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't think about my like, you know, freedom loving,
Speaker 2: you know fathers who made the Constitution. That's not my story.
Speaker 2: So I no longer connect to it, you know, as
Speaker 2: an American, I feel like it's complicated and we need
Speaker 2: a lot more nuanced conversations. But I know in my
Speaker 2: heart of hearts that we all no matter your race,
Speaker 2: your gender, whatever. All these these these like generalizations you
Speaker 2: want to get under little flags that at the bottom
Speaker 2: of it, You're just a human being trying to make
Speaker 2: the best of this unexplainable experience. And so I just
Speaker 2: want to cause less infusion, cause less problems. And whenever
Speaker 2: you can encounter people and share this message of love
Speaker 2: without sounding hokey, that's what I try to do. You know,
Speaker 2: no one has any answers. I no longer. I don't
Speaker 2: believe in power anymore. I think I was raised to
Speaker 2: think like, woh, you need to gain power, and I
Speaker 2: have no interest in power anymore. I'm really into like, yeah,
Speaker 2: what kind of exchange can we have? Like I want
Speaker 2: to Grammy this year and people ask me about it,
Speaker 2: and I had the deepest depression after it, you know.
Speaker 2: And then you know, I had to start just configuring
Speaker 2: in my journal, like come on, see the positive things
Speaker 2: of it, you know, And I realized the most positive
Speaker 2: thing for me, if you don't mind, was I went
Speaker 2: with Abe. And you know, when you win the Grammy,
Speaker 2: they usher you through the back like take a picture,
Speaker 2: do won't drop the Grammy down? You take another one,
Speaker 2: take another picture, go to the press, blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: And then the press thing, you know, something kind of
Speaker 2: messed up happened. Someone mistakes me. They were like, what's
Speaker 2: it like playing with David Bowie because I look like
Speaker 2: Gail and Dorsey or you know, just limited in their scope.
Speaker 2: But that then I was like, I let it. I
Speaker 2: just say pew, I said, let's talk about race. Actually
Speaker 2: to the reporter, shut down all interviews. And then that's
Speaker 2: when I realized, like, this is not my thing, you know,
Speaker 2: I want to I'm always going to focus on the music.
Speaker 2: But the other highlight was we're in the lounge with
Speaker 2: all the people who won, and this man comes over
Speaker 2: and just starts what I call talking at me. When
Speaker 2: you just talk at me, you don't want We're not talking,
Speaker 2: You're just at me. He's talking and talking, and I
Speaker 2: could feel Abe's energy change, like just Abes is like
Speaker 2: oh my god, the flower, but his whole energy change
Speaker 2: like you don't remember me? And I was like, what's
Speaker 2: happening to the guy? He said to the guy, you
Speaker 2: don't and I was like, whoa. So I just stepped
Speaker 2: back a little bit and he was like, you were
Speaker 2: my teacher.
Speaker 3: Teacher, my drum teacher at college.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 3: They did not recognize me at all.
Speaker 1: And wasn't nice to him, wasn't trying to recognize you, probably, but.
Speaker 2: It wasn't nice to him. What did he tell you
Speaker 2: when you were in class school?
Speaker 5: Yeah, he said that your right hand dominant, so you'll
Speaker 5: never ever get cold to play on a record.
Speaker 1: A teacher. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then that again another moment of like, this is
Speaker 2: why I'm here because this is hilarious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had a good Yeah, we were just like.
Speaker 2: But look, he's his right hand, it's killing.
Speaker 1: Real dominant.
Speaker 4: You actually get to say that.
Speaker 2: No, I just felt in my heart I wanted him.
Speaker 2: I could see these were two men and they need
Speaker 2: to have that interaction. And but that I was like,
Speaker 2: this is why I'm here, This is why I want.
Speaker 2: This moment is why I want, don't you know? It's
Speaker 2: my own like low self esteem that I deserve. It
Speaker 2: is it real? What's it mean? You know, you go
Speaker 2: through it and then you have a moment where it's like, ah,
Speaker 2: nothing to do with you, None of this has anything
Speaker 2: to do with you. You know, it's these moments that are important.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's the it's all the people that help
Speaker 2: make the record that will help hopefully have other experiences
Speaker 2: come from that record. Everyone has something they believe in.
Speaker 2: But if we're going to make this country, this experiment work,
Speaker 2: the best I can do is cause less less fire.
Speaker 1: Yeah, less fire. Thanks Michelle, and I appreciate you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate and I much success to you. It's such
Speaker 2: an honor to be here.
Speaker 1: This is an honored actual. Thanks so much Michelle and
Speaker 1: de gio Cello and a Browns for talking about their
Speaker 1: close collaboration together and their two new projects out on
Speaker 1: Blue Note Records. You can hear those albums and a
Speaker 1: playlist of some of our favorite tracks from Michelle and
Speaker 1: Abe on a playlist at broken Record podcast dot com
Speaker 1: or in our episode description. You can also watch this
Speaker 1: interview on other recent episodes at YouTube dot com slash
Speaker 1: broken Record podcast, and be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and
Speaker 1: edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler
Speaker 1: and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinay. Broken Record
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this
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Speaker 1: us on your podcast app. Our theme Music's back, any beats?
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond,