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Speaker 1: Pushkin Pushkin. Michelle and Degiocello doesn't fit neatly into the

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Speaker 1: jazz label, or any label of any kind for that matter.

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Speaker 1: She's a phenomenal bass player, a deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter

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Speaker 1: of song, an incredible band leader, and has one badass career.

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Speaker 1: So even though she's not strictly jazz, it's fitting that

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Speaker 1: after a securitiest journey through the industry that started as

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Speaker 1: one of the premier artists on Madonna's Maverick Records in

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Speaker 1: the early nineties, she's now released two albums on Blue

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Speaker 1: Miot Records under the guidance of Don Was. The first

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Speaker 1: was last year's The Omnichord Real Book, a project with

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Speaker 1: a fascinating origin will be discussing on today's episode. The

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Speaker 1: latest is twenty twenty four's No More Water The Gospel

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Speaker 1: of James Baldwin, a tribute to two of the great

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Speaker 1: Black American writers and thinkers of the last century, James

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Speaker 1: Baldwin and Audrey Lord. That might sound heady, but consider

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Speaker 1: the source. Michelle is the product of a Washington d c.

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Speaker 1: Upbringing a city a wash in culture like go go

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Speaker 1: music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like

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Speaker 1: her DC home. Michelle's a great synthesizer of music and ideas.

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Speaker 1: Joining Michelle, don Was and myself on our chat as

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Speaker 1: a Browns, an inn demand drummer and musician who's been

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Speaker 1: playing with Michelle since she picked him out of Berkeley

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Speaker 1: College of Music. He's also worked closely with Andrew Byrd, Nicka, Keen,

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Speaker 1: Blake Mills, and many more. But in today's episode, he

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Speaker 1: helps us gain some valuable insight about what it's like

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Speaker 1: to be a close collaborator of Michelle and Degiocello. This

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Speaker 1: is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm

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Speaker 1: justin Mitchman. Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music

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Speaker 1: Studio one to twenty six in Culver City, California, with

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Speaker 1: Michelle and degio Cello and drummer Abe Browns. To see

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Speaker 1: the full video version of this episode, go to YouTube

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Speaker 1: dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. I mean, DC's very

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Speaker 1: on the surface, it looks like what it is, but

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Speaker 1: there's all kinds of things going on below the surface

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Speaker 1: in DC. I feel like or beneath the veneer on

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Speaker 1: the other on the flip side, you know, musically.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, it was a percussive element definitely made

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Speaker 2: his way. There's so much of that in go go music.

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Speaker 2: And when I went to Cuba it changed me because

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Speaker 2: it was it was the first time someone told me like,

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Speaker 2: stop counting and just play, just play, and if the

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Speaker 2: people aren't moving to the music, then you're not. You

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Speaker 2: haven't reached that place yet. We're not locked.

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Speaker 1: How do you implement theory? That might be easy stop counting,

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Speaker 1: but how do you in practice?

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Speaker 3: Listen?

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Speaker 2: Listen? You know, just you just have to have complete

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Speaker 2: trust and listen. I'm not good at it yet, you know.

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Speaker 2: It's just it's a constant unfolding of when you start

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Speaker 2: to just trust yourself and you're just using your ears

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Speaker 2: and you're listening.

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Speaker 4: I think you're awesome at it. Actually, I was just

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Speaker 4: watching a clip of you with Oliver Lake and Chris

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Speaker 4: Dave doctor Strange. Is that the song?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And you're standing there playing one of the most syncopated

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Speaker 4: original sound and bass parts I ever heard in my life,

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Speaker 4: and no one is helping you hold those syncopations down.

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Speaker 4: Everyone's working playing polyrhythms against it, and you never lost that.

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Speaker 4: I was just like, how does she hold this groove

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Speaker 4: down with all this counterpoint going on?

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Speaker 3: Around.

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Speaker 2: I'm the drummer's best friend.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah you are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Probably comes from playing Go Go and just having to

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Speaker 5: hold it down so people can have a good time, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I grew up where if you you

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Speaker 2: veered off, I mean everything would literally stop, or you

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Speaker 2: just would someone would get hurt, someone would get hurt,

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Speaker 2: or you'd have to really endure intense criticism after I

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Speaker 2: mean painful jousting and dozens.

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Speaker 1: That's that's the that's the environment you came up with.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Go Go is a very masculine and intense.

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Speaker 4: Music question. Yeah, Chuck Brown or Rare Essence? Who is

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Speaker 4: the originator?

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Speaker 2: Just they're both so very different, and I think the

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Speaker 2: originator is a band called Eu actually or Trouble Funk

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Speaker 2: or Junkyard. There are mini bands that were before them

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Speaker 2: just didn't get any recogniz But there's a great deaf

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Speaker 2: jam record by Junkyard called Sardines and Pork and Beans.

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Speaker 2: To me, that is the foundational example of Go Go.

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Speaker 1: When did Go Go become such a part of DC? Like,

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Speaker 1: was it always there as far as you were?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as I don't know. I'm I'm old

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Speaker 2: but not old enough to know where it stems from.

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Speaker 1: You just always heard it growing up.

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Speaker 2: Always was the main music, the only music that made money.

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Speaker 2: Jazz gigs didn't make any money. I could play five

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Speaker 2: nights a week on go go gigs and make more

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Speaker 2: money than my dad. And he had society.

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Speaker 1: Gigs, oh man like like when you say society gigs.

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Speaker 2: Like like he played he was in the army, so

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Speaker 2: he played at the NCO Club. I would play at

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Speaker 2: the Capitol, you know, but the go go was the

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Speaker 2: driving force of DC eighties.

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Speaker 1: Where did your dad Your dad been a jazz musician

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Speaker 1: And did you feel and I imagine you learned. I

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Speaker 1: mean I read that your first real book came from

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Speaker 1: your father. Did you feel like you wanted to maybe

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Speaker 1: play more jazz or I mean like the fact that

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Speaker 1: you could make the money doing go go was that the.

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Speaker 2: These are deep, long conversations. I think when you're young,

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Speaker 2: you're first starting to play, you just want to find

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Speaker 2: your community. It's funny I was asking a does he

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Speaker 2: feelly belongs to any sort of click or genre that's

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Speaker 2: coming up? And I think that when I was young,

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Speaker 2: I was like, this is the music that everyone's going

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Speaker 2: to see. I'm making a lot of friends, and that's

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Speaker 2: what drew me to it. It is like I got

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Speaker 2: to be with like minded people when we're trying to

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Speaker 2: get good at something. But I also liked hanging out

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Speaker 2: with my friend Federico, who loved Toto and Van Halen,

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Speaker 2: and so I was drawn to that too, and the

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Speaker 2: beauty about DC. In the seventies there wasn't genre based radio,

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Speaker 2: so I could hear Bad Brains and Parliament and you know,

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Speaker 2: Kim Carnes and Gladys Knight. I just never felt that

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Speaker 2: sort of separation. And so to say, was I into it?

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Speaker 2: I was just into anything that would get me playing

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Speaker 2: and meeting people who were trying to make things and

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Speaker 2: make live bands.

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Speaker 4: You know, yeah, were you all? As a bass player?

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Speaker 2: I played the clarinet for a while, but my brother

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Speaker 2: played the guitar and his friend left the bassover and

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Speaker 2: once I realized it allowed him and I to interact

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Speaker 2: and play together, I was like, this is when I

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Speaker 2: want to play.

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Speaker 1: Did you try playing guitar before that?

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that didn't work for me? What about different energy?

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Speaker 2: I have more of a bass player energy. Guitar players

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Speaker 2: are very they have a confidence and a need to

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Speaker 2: be out front. Sorry, to make a generalization, I think

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Speaker 2: I'm more of a like I like to watch everything

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Speaker 2: and see what I can add that will be helpful.

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Speaker 1: It's a confidence thoughing that too, like that that there

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Speaker 1: is a confidence in bass players that comes. I don't

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Speaker 1: know from an I'm not a bass player, but observing

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Speaker 1: bass players always intimidating to me in the sense that

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Speaker 1: they're always listening, they see everything.

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Speaker 2: Natural leader of the band.

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Speaker 3: That's why they make good producers.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about that. But we're the natural leader

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Speaker 2: of the band. We can turn around, we can walk,

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Speaker 2: we can tell the drummer he's slowing down. You can

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Speaker 2: throw up a hand to make a like it's coming.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're the one that can like get it happening.

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Speaker 2: You're the natural. You can walk up to the singer

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Speaker 2: and be like, we're at the first and you know,

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Speaker 2: you just have a natural vibe.

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Speaker 1: Get the guitar player back focused.

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Speaker 2: And plus, yeah, you're all right, you're all right with

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Speaker 2: taking your hands off the instrument. Where a guitar player

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Speaker 2: a keyboard player, it's not.

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Speaker 3: And you can play one bass that and change the

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Speaker 3: entire homony.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's a bass player in my band. Abe's father is

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Speaker 2: one of the greatest bass players in Sydney, Australia. Amazing

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Speaker 2: bass player. Chris Bruce is a bass player. Jevin Bruney,

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Speaker 2: who play with Pil Tears for Fears also bass player first.

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Speaker 2: So it's just a it's a bass player band.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes someone else plays bass in your bands, Yeah, Kyle Miles,

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Speaker 4: And why do you not play?

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Speaker 2: I come from the reason I think I have a

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Speaker 2: career is I made one catchy R and B song

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Speaker 2: and so I'm sort of I come from the R

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Speaker 2: and B and go go thing where I'm there to

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Speaker 2: interact with the audience and I have to make some

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Speaker 2: sort of connection to the audience, and I can't if

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Speaker 2: I'm when I'm playing the bass, I'm lost in that

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Speaker 2: and I don't have that connection.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes you do two basses, right, yeah, yeah, how do

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Speaker 4: you how do you break that down?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? We passed back and forth, try to. I think

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Speaker 2: the sound man creates a nice balance of us. And sometimes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just hard to sing and play certain I write

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Speaker 2: certain basslines that are so contrapuntal to the vocal. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's also yeah, it's like it's not my shtick. I

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Speaker 2: really love to play the bass. And then take it seriously.

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Speaker 1: So you're such a brilliant bass player, I appreciate you saying,

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Speaker 1: and gorgeous songwriter. How do you? How do you? How

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Speaker 1: do you balance the two? I mean I personally as

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Speaker 1: a as a failed musician, you know, I mean trying

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Speaker 1: to find the time to work on songwriting, to work

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Speaker 1: on you know, early on, I guess I mean now

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Speaker 1: you're you're in, you know, you're on your path, but

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Speaker 1: hopefully early on, I mean, I guess, when did songwriting

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Speaker 1: become a part of your life?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: My father he liked to go to pawn shops and

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Speaker 2: he would just by all kinds of equipment, and he

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Speaker 2: bought a roads and a little four track when I

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Speaker 2: was about thirteen. And once I realized you could multi

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Speaker 2: track and layer things, that was a big change. And

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Speaker 2: I was on a jazz gig and I flailed and

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Speaker 2: I realized I'm never going to be like a virtuoso,

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Speaker 2: but I really like making things. And I found Catharsis

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Speaker 2: in that. I think that's when I was like, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be a songwriter. That's gonna be my be

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Speaker 2: my thing.

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Speaker 1: That gave you a way to be involved in music

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Speaker 1: without being the yeah, VIRTUALO, So.

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Speaker 2: Then I felt you Yeah, it would never be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: When you're writing a song, are you hearing the textures

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Speaker 4: that you're going to add to it?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so Yeah, I'm very just do want

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Speaker 2: to sound. I'm very aware. I have an awareness to

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Speaker 2: the sonic feeling of a song more so than harmony

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Speaker 2: and construction. I really am trying to create an emotional

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Speaker 2: feeling with sonics. I'm very sensitive to mixes, like I

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Speaker 2: really feel like you can you can change the way

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Speaker 2: someone interacts with the song just by slight variations in

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Speaker 2: the mix. And I can't say where that comes from.

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Speaker 1: I just.

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Speaker 2: I'm a believer. I just think that's it's a gift

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Speaker 2: and a burden. But that's what I try to hone into.

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Speaker 2: I think how the song makes the person feel. I

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Speaker 2: can't tell them what to feel, but I want it

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Speaker 2: to sound in a way that they can take it

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Speaker 2: in a certain way.

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Speaker 1: How do you how do you want to feel like.

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Speaker 2: Different all the time?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: I I when I'm making music, Yeah, I just I

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Speaker 2: want to feel an array of emotions that that that

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Speaker 2: only I know. But when I put the music out there,

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Speaker 2: I just hope it sonically hits a place where you

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Speaker 2: can feel whatever you need to feel.

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Speaker 1: So you try to get to a place where at

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Speaker 1: least you're feeling something and therefore, hopefully then yeah.

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Speaker 2: I sound like an asshole. No, I always feel something.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I just yeah, I love I I I

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Speaker 2: love music all kinds, all styles. Good. I don't believe

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Speaker 2: in good or bad. It's very opaque. There's certain things

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Speaker 2: you may enjoy listening to, other things you might not.

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Speaker 2: I take a critique like a compliment, and a compliment

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Speaker 2: like a critique, and that and that keeps me enjoying music.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: That's a really great way to think about feedback. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a really incredible way. Who if Go Go was

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Speaker 1: kind of the foundation of of of of you learning

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Speaker 1: to Uh well, actually, let me ask this too, because

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Speaker 1: you said that Go Go had a very masculine energy,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, your bass player, and as

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Speaker 1: you said, bass player is really commanding the band. You're

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Speaker 1: kind of you're the leader, You're you're calling everything. Did

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Speaker 1: that How did that feel? Early on? As you're a

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Speaker 1: nascent bass player and you're in a very male dominated

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Speaker 1: or masculine genre, you're playing gigs in the genre that

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Speaker 1: feels very masculine as that energy.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I can only give an example. I had

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Speaker 2: to play my don create this festival where you play

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Speaker 2: one of your records and its entirety, and so we

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Speaker 2: chose the first record to play, and I go back

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Speaker 2: and I look at videos and I am like a

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Speaker 2: raise jing asshole in my in my vibe in the

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Speaker 2: way I play, it's like on ten, you know. And

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Speaker 2: I know it's like a certain sort of style I have.

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Speaker 2: The It's it's just energetic frequency I think I got

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Speaker 2: from Go Go everything really tight, you know, like the

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Speaker 2: gus are pulsating tight and fast, like the temples are

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Speaker 2: like whoa. And and so when I sat when we

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Speaker 2: went to play it now, and it's just like I

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Speaker 2: just don't even have that energy. I just don't even

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Speaker 2: have that vibration wow anymore. And so I think it

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Speaker 2: was a I had to had a sense of preservation

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Speaker 2: in order to make it like I didn't want. The

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Speaker 2: thing I couldn't stand is you played good for you know,

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Speaker 2: being a woman. And I used to just crush me

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Speaker 2: and I just eventually was like, nah, I'm good, I'm

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Speaker 2: just gonna I'm just gonna play the best that's just

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Speaker 2: so good that you don't say anything and so command.

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Speaker 2: With such command, I want to hear nothing from you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, that's wild.

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Speaker 2: Thank god, that's over youth. Youth and collagen like really

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Speaker 2: make you aggressive human being?

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Speaker 1: What do you do you? Where do you think that

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Speaker 1: energy went? If you don't have that vibration anymore?

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Speaker 2: Oh, therapy and reconciling my traumas and a lot of weed.

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Speaker 1: That'll help.

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Speaker 2: I smoke a lot of weed so much.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: I read this interview with Martin Scorsese wh he was

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Speaker 4: talking about when he first got it, first got out

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Speaker 4: of film school, he had all the stuff he wanted

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Speaker 4: to prove about what he could do, and then about

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Speaker 4: three or four films in, it's like, just just tell

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Speaker 4: a great story and tell it well. And I think

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Speaker 4: that's just part of maturity as an artist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read that by your last album with Maverick,

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Speaker 1: with that, with the label you initially signed to, that

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Speaker 1: you finally felt like you can make what you what

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Speaker 1: you heard? Oh yeah, what can you explain what that?

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Speaker 1: What that means? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Because that's what got me the first record deal is

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Speaker 2: that you you have your whole life to make your

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Speaker 2: first record, right, and you're you're so confident in your

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Speaker 2: ideas and that's what got the people to notice you.

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Speaker 2: By the second and third people start telling you what's

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Speaker 2: gonna what could help you be successful, and you can

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Speaker 2: take it or leave it or can crush you. And

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Speaker 2: after making three records that no one was happy with,

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Speaker 2: it just snapped in me, like I have to remember,

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Speaker 2: like you know, this gift is not for me, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's I'm so blessed to have it, and

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Speaker 2: I need to continue to wait for the transmissions and

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Speaker 2: to be honest with the music because I rather fail

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Speaker 2: doing what I was honest about. Then I jumped through

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Speaker 2: all them hoops and made it different. And you still

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Speaker 2: don't like me, or you still don't like it, you know.

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Speaker 2: So all you have is your is just the feeling

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Speaker 2: that I did my best. That's all I have. And

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Speaker 2: what Don said is, eventually you know I'm not doing it.

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Speaker 2: I eventually you realize you're not doing it for the collapse,

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Speaker 2: and the people that really come to see you are

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Speaker 2: looking for a hint of sincerity, just a little bit,

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Speaker 2: because they pay I realize I pay money to go

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Speaker 2: outside of myself for a good ninety minutes and watch

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Speaker 2: someone do what they love. And so that's what I

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Speaker 2: started to focus on.

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Speaker 4: M I want to talk about those transmissions. Have you

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Speaker 4: discovered a way to encourage them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I was I was fretting this interview

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Speaker 2: for because I knew something would come up like that.

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Speaker 2: I just I feel a hint of shame sometimes, but

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Speaker 2: I pray. You know, I'm a believer, and the moments

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Speaker 2: I have to myself are just and when I can

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Speaker 2: hear my own thoughts, like I got rid of the phone,

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Speaker 2: like I have like a type of flip phone, and

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Speaker 2: I just I just try to create a space for

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Speaker 2: myself to listen, and I really find that that helps creativity.

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Speaker 2: And also I stop sometimes I just stop for months

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Speaker 2: and don't do anything. You know, everything's so rapid. I'm

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Speaker 2: old enough to remember when people made a record every

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Speaker 2: three to four years. You know, it was only eight.

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Speaker 1: Songs, right, not seventy seven.

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Speaker 2: And so I just think, I know that's a reference,

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Speaker 2: yeah that record.

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Speaker 1: Both have American rec rooms now, by the way, too.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I love my virgo, my a

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Speaker 2: virgo friend. Yeah. You just I don't know, I you

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Speaker 2: just how do you do it? You tell me? It's like,

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Speaker 2: how do you wait for you and you aid people

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Speaker 2: in bringing, you know, things to fruition? How do you

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Speaker 2: keep yourself buoyant? How do you stay interested in music

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Speaker 2: where you're seen as someone not only are you planting

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Speaker 2: the seeds, you're tilling the land, and you're also out

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Speaker 2: there selling the product? Like, how do you maintain yeah, buoyancy?

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Speaker 4: I draw inspiration from artists like you for real. You know,

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Speaker 4: we've never really talked about it because we mostly limit

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Speaker 4: ourselves to kind of almost musical small talk. And that's

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Speaker 4: because I don't know how to approach you about what

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Speaker 4: the essence of what you do because it's it's beyond.

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Speaker 4: I can't describe it, and I don't know how to

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Speaker 4: verbalize it. But I've been we've been doing. I do

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Speaker 4: the same thing you do, produce records and play bass.

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Speaker 4: But I don't know how you do what you do.

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Speaker 4: Can't And it's not like it's happened once or twice.

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Speaker 4: Every one of your records is just magnificent. You know

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Speaker 4: how I feel about your records? You ever seen the

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Speaker 4: pictures of a universe shot by the Hubble space telescope? Yes,

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Speaker 4: I do follow this and you and you look at

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Speaker 4: it and you get wait a minute, that little dot

365
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Speaker 4: is a galaxy like the Milky Way, and we're looking

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Speaker 4: at it one hundred million years ago because it's so

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Speaker 4: far away and the colors are making That's how I

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Speaker 4: feel about your records. I don't know how what you're

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Speaker 4: plugged into, but I know I can't get there. But

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Speaker 4: I've worked for a couple, just a couple other artists,

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Speaker 4: you know. I think Wayne Shorter was one of those people.

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Speaker 4: I think Bob Dylan is one of those people.

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Speaker 2: We love Bob Dylan.

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Speaker 4: Your sonic vision and what you're able to convey through

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Speaker 4: sound is us the equivalent of what he can do,

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Speaker 4: you know, with words, And I don't know how you

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Speaker 4: do it. It's just mind blown.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that. I will carry that with

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Speaker 2: me today and when I have my losses, I will

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Speaker 2: think of that. Take that out. Yeah. I just yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm just I have really good friends now too. I

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Speaker 2: mean that helps a lot. And we listen to a

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Speaker 2: lot of music, Like we just try to what are

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Speaker 2: you listening to? And you DJ the dressing room tonight

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Speaker 2: and just you know, just try to listen and I

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Speaker 2: tell I've been having some students, which is really put

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Speaker 2: you in a strange position because I'm not dogmatic, but

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Speaker 2: the only thing I tell them, if you don't like

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Speaker 2: yourself and like to spend time with yourself, you're not

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Speaker 2: going to get to that creative space that you dream

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Speaker 2: and hope for. You have to really like to sit

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Speaker 2: with yourself and explore the instrument or where the tools

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Speaker 2: you're using you have to spend you have to relate

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Speaker 2: to them like and master them, like painting or any

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Speaker 2: other medium of art.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really great that's a really great point.

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Speaker 1: Then alone time required to sit there and just go

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Speaker 1: run something down hours at a time, you know, day

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Speaker 1: in and day out, day after day.

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Speaker 2: It requires a lot of a long time. It's hard

401
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Speaker 2: to stomach sometimes. Yes, we'll be right back with more

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Speaker 2: from Michelle and de yo Cello and a Browns. After

403
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Speaker 2: the break, we're back with more from Michelle and deg

404
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Speaker 2: yo Cello and a Browns.

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Speaker 1: How's it? I mean, Abe's your drummer and your band

406
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Speaker 1: my friend, your friend is my friend. It feels like you.

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Speaker 1: It feels like you have like a like an actual

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Speaker 1: like I know. The records are Michell's records. But it

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Speaker 1: feels almost like you're creating within a band, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 1: How's it? How's it been playing with Abe?

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Speaker 2: And oh it's great. I had a low after playing

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Speaker 2: with Chris Dave. I didn't think I'd ever have that

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Speaker 2: sort of feeling with a drummer that I felt. I

415
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Speaker 2: felt like we were somehow like vulcan mind meld with

416
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Speaker 2: rhythmic experiences. But I was doing a like a setting

417
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Speaker 2: in at Berkeley, doing a little workshop and I met Abe.

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Speaker 2: He's one of three drummers, and I could just tell.

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Speaker 2: I was just like, you don't really need to be here,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to figure that out. And it's funny

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Speaker 2: the instructor, he was not the one she that that

422
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Speaker 2: instructor felt strongly about. And I was just like, I know.

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Speaker 2: And so him and I would play during that whole time,

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Speaker 2: and I was just like, I'm calling it, I'm calling

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Speaker 2: you for a gig, and I called him, and since

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Speaker 2: that day, it's just I'm just like I'm growing. He

427
00:26:19,476 --> 00:26:22,196
Speaker 2: teaches me so much in terms of rhythm and harmony,

428
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Speaker 2: such an accomplished musician, and taught me so much as

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Speaker 2: a person. Chris too, who I met at during Bitter,

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Speaker 2: which was a very hard time, a record people didn't like.

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Speaker 2: But he introduced me to t Rex and all these

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Speaker 2: other amazing bands. I would have not come in contact

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Speaker 2: with Jebn Brune, I mean, just a genius programmer and player.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like I've met people where I feel

435
00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:58,156
Speaker 2: like we're growing. We're not in a time like sometimes

436
00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:00,476
Speaker 2: you have a band in that band is a time

437
00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:04,236
Speaker 2: you know you did this together and you're going to

438
00:27:04,356 --> 00:27:06,676
Speaker 2: keep doing that the same way for the rest of

439
00:27:06,716 --> 00:27:09,556
Speaker 2: your life. Right, and we and this is the first

440
00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,396
Speaker 2: time I'm like, are you gonna play the keyboard on this?

441
00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:15,556
Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe I'll play. Let's get some vibes happening.

442
00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:20,636
Speaker 2: You know, everyone's open to change and growth, and we

443
00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:26,556
Speaker 2: respect each other's individuality. And we've been through a lot together,

444
00:27:28,076 --> 00:27:31,876
Speaker 2: both joyful and not so joyful. So there's a goodness,

445
00:27:31,916 --> 00:27:33,876
Speaker 2: a good bond, that.

446
00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:36,956
Speaker 1: Level of freedom, your your experience with with with with

447
00:27:37,036 --> 00:27:39,556
Speaker 1: you guys now where it's like who's playing, who's playing? Well?

448
00:27:40,196 --> 00:27:40,676
Speaker 3: How does that?

449
00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:42,636
Speaker 1: How does that? How does that play out? Like when

450
00:27:42,676 --> 00:27:44,956
Speaker 1: you're when you're writing, like do you are you? What

451
00:27:44,996 --> 00:27:47,556
Speaker 1: do you? Does that has it impacted the way you write.

452
00:27:48,156 --> 00:27:52,316
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like Omnichord is a very special record because

453
00:27:52,356 --> 00:27:55,356
Speaker 2: I had so much time off. You know, COVID was

454
00:27:55,396 --> 00:28:00,596
Speaker 2: a life changing experience for me. I actually, I have

455
00:28:00,636 --> 00:28:02,036
Speaker 2: a house in the woods, and I got to be

456
00:28:02,156 --> 00:28:05,236
Speaker 2: in that house for long periods of time and just

457
00:28:05,396 --> 00:28:07,876
Speaker 2: be with myself. And so I had some different instruments

458
00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:10,756
Speaker 2: to work with, and we were working a lot on score,

459
00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:14,236
Speaker 2: the four of us, the core group, We did like

460
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:18,956
Speaker 2: several TV shows and we made Yeah, we just made

461
00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,676
Speaker 2: a lot of music together in a very compressed experience.

462
00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:25,836
Speaker 2: So it changed the writing in the sense of like

463
00:28:25,876 --> 00:28:28,076
Speaker 2: I have an idea, send it back, do this, do that,

464
00:28:28,996 --> 00:28:32,236
Speaker 2: And I really wanted to get out of that, and

465
00:28:32,316 --> 00:28:37,036
Speaker 2: so I collected a bunch of songs. But we went

466
00:28:37,076 --> 00:28:39,916
Speaker 2: into the studio together to complete the writing. Like we

467
00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:44,996
Speaker 2: knew that together things would It was just germination and

468
00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:47,676
Speaker 2: then we'd all come together and things would come just

469
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:48,876
Speaker 2: start to sprout and grow.

470
00:28:49,476 --> 00:28:51,676
Speaker 4: Can you describe that a little more in depth? Like

471
00:28:53,476 --> 00:28:56,036
Speaker 4: you come in with a rough idea in a session

472
00:28:56,676 --> 00:28:59,716
Speaker 4: and just we just set up and start playing, and

473
00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:02,036
Speaker 4: you pull out the good ideas and you keep refining it.

474
00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:02,796
Speaker 4: How does that work.

475
00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:03,196
Speaker 1: Well.

476
00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:06,356
Speaker 5: First, I'll say I think that your demos are well

477
00:29:06,436 --> 00:29:08,676
Speaker 5: on their own, like they're they're amazing, that they kind

478
00:29:08,676 --> 00:29:11,636
Speaker 5: of it's all there somehow. And then you have you

479
00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:14,156
Speaker 5: have a great ability of letting go and then trusting

480
00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:17,396
Speaker 5: the people in the room to take your shell of

481
00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:20,436
Speaker 5: an idea and make it their own. And I think

482
00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:23,236
Speaker 5: that's the kind of the process. It's never really talked

483
00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:27,156
Speaker 5: about like hey, I think it should be that you

484
00:29:27,156 --> 00:29:31,036
Speaker 5: should play this drum beat or you should play these

485
00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:31,956
Speaker 5: particular chords.

486
00:29:31,996 --> 00:29:33,036
Speaker 3: It's just more like the feeling.

487
00:29:33,356 --> 00:29:35,196
Speaker 5: It's like, let's try and tap into that feeling and

488
00:29:35,236 --> 00:29:40,676
Speaker 5: how you would, you know, your your own version of that, Yeah,

489
00:29:40,836 --> 00:29:41,636
Speaker 5: through your body?

490
00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:44,636
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that what you're listening for them when you

491
00:29:44,636 --> 00:29:45,316
Speaker 1: get demos?

492
00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:47,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally for sure.

493
00:29:47,796 --> 00:29:50,316
Speaker 5: It's just like what is the for instance, if it's

494
00:29:50,356 --> 00:29:53,516
Speaker 5: like I'm trying to recreate a beat or something, I'm

495
00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:55,236
Speaker 5: never Yeah, we're not trying to recreate out. We were

496
00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:56,836
Speaker 5: just trying to like tap into the feeling of what

497
00:29:56,916 --> 00:29:59,756
Speaker 5: the beat does or if it if the rhythm of

498
00:29:59,796 --> 00:30:02,756
Speaker 5: it or maybe the lack of rhythm in it. So

499
00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:07,636
Speaker 5: it's just like trying to you know, and like we're

500
00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:10,916
Speaker 5: also a band, and like they can be conversations about

501
00:30:10,956 --> 00:30:16,836
Speaker 5: where's the one, but that usually get to that if

502
00:30:16,876 --> 00:30:18,716
Speaker 5: we get to that place, that's if we're trying to

503
00:30:19,276 --> 00:30:22,036
Speaker 5: like quantify where it is. Usually that's not a good thing.

504
00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:26,396
Speaker 5: So it's just like if you hear it there, that's fine. Also,

505
00:30:26,436 --> 00:30:30,436
Speaker 5: if you get to know me, this is a facade.

506
00:30:30,956 --> 00:30:33,476
Speaker 2: I don't really talk a lot, and I'm like, not,

507
00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:35,916
Speaker 2: we're never all going to get together, Like let's talk

508
00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:38,516
Speaker 2: about where the music goes. I'm going for that tone

509
00:30:38,596 --> 00:30:43,676
Speaker 2: and you know, not that person. I'll just I have

510
00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:47,036
Speaker 2: to trust the musician or I get a music, I'm

511
00:30:47,076 --> 00:30:51,116
Speaker 2: getting a part that someone's trying to do something, and

512
00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:54,916
Speaker 2: I'd rather you be inspired by the part to do something,

513
00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:59,436
Speaker 2: not do my part, because that's how it feels as

514
00:30:59,596 --> 00:31:02,876
Speaker 2: being the so called leader, and I think that's kind

515
00:31:02,916 --> 00:31:06,356
Speaker 2: of limiting to the song and the Omnichoor Real book

516
00:31:06,636 --> 00:31:09,916
Speaker 2: was my hope, like when my father gave me that

517
00:31:09,956 --> 00:31:13,156
Speaker 2: book on that first gig, was to create things that

518
00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:18,996
Speaker 2: musicians like to play, like their foundational understandings of harmony

519
00:31:19,356 --> 00:31:22,196
Speaker 2: and a rhythm and a time. But you have to

520
00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:25,556
Speaker 2: add something to it, you know, to make it feel

521
00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:28,596
Speaker 2: good for us. And that's how I approached the last record,

522
00:31:29,316 --> 00:31:32,556
Speaker 2: you know, just like here's some ideas, but you know,

523
00:31:32,956 --> 00:31:35,676
Speaker 2: A broke some songs and then and we just all

524
00:31:35,716 --> 00:31:39,596
Speaker 2: sort of come together and create.

525
00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:41,836
Speaker 3: You know, it feels communal.

526
00:31:41,876 --> 00:31:45,676
Speaker 2: It's communal community and a lot of ruthless editing.

527
00:31:46,916 --> 00:31:48,236
Speaker 3: Show as a master editor.

528
00:31:48,396 --> 00:31:49,956
Speaker 2: Ruthless. I'm a ruthless editor.

529
00:31:50,636 --> 00:31:53,116
Speaker 4: Do you actually sit behind it? Push people away and

530
00:31:53,396 --> 00:31:54,076
Speaker 4: behind the computer.

531
00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:56,676
Speaker 2: I make people leave so I can sit and listen

532
00:31:56,716 --> 00:31:59,516
Speaker 2: because the talking while you're listening you can't. I can't

533
00:31:59,596 --> 00:32:02,436
Speaker 2: deal with, Like, if we're gonna listen to the track back,

534
00:32:02,796 --> 00:32:06,636
Speaker 2: we're gonna listen, and I try not to listen, which

535
00:32:06,676 --> 00:32:11,636
Speaker 2: I've just I just worked on a project that's really

536
00:32:11,716 --> 00:32:15,276
Speaker 2: serious jazz, and I really struggle when we come back

537
00:32:15,316 --> 00:32:19,716
Speaker 2: to the listening and they only listen to their part

538
00:32:20,316 --> 00:32:24,156
Speaker 2: and they don't listen as a whole. You can't tell

539
00:32:24,196 --> 00:32:27,476
Speaker 2: me what the bass player play. You're just listening to yourself.

540
00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:30,916
Speaker 2: And it becomes my topic. And so that's my only

541
00:32:30,956 --> 00:32:33,076
Speaker 2: other thing. Like when we listen, we're going to listen,

542
00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:36,436
Speaker 2: and you can tell because we know each other. When

543
00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:40,116
Speaker 2: we'll go like let's do it again, we just immediately

544
00:32:40,156 --> 00:32:42,476
Speaker 2: go back and do it again, or we go like

545
00:32:42,556 --> 00:32:46,436
Speaker 2: take a break, just step away from it and just

546
00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:50,276
Speaker 2: let it sit for a minute instead of finding a problem.

547
00:32:50,636 --> 00:32:55,916
Speaker 2: Because sometimes I'm learning too after time. I mean, are

548
00:32:55,956 --> 00:32:59,556
Speaker 2: you really nitpicking? Or can you trust yourself now? After

549
00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:02,916
Speaker 2: you've after thirty years of making records? At what point

550
00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:06,436
Speaker 2: do you go like, that's a good take. And luckily

551
00:33:06,636 --> 00:33:09,356
Speaker 2: I have this a younger person who's like he'll just

552
00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:12,676
Speaker 2: tell you like, no, I'm not that's great, I'm good.

553
00:33:13,756 --> 00:33:16,996
Speaker 2: I'm not doing it again, you know Chris too. I

554
00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:21,996
Speaker 2: have people around me like no, that's good. Stop wow, wow,

555
00:33:22,036 --> 00:33:26,156
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you're right, Like did on that jazz.

556
00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:28,836
Speaker 1: Project you were talking about, Yeah, did you get over

557
00:33:28,836 --> 00:33:31,396
Speaker 1: that hump of everyone just listening to their Well.

558
00:33:31,276 --> 00:33:33,716
Speaker 2: I just observe the energy I just had. Now I

559
00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:37,836
Speaker 2: would never have. I just observe. I watched them and

560
00:33:37,876 --> 00:33:41,156
Speaker 2: I listen, and then I have to figure out how

561
00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:46,076
Speaker 2: to or communicate something that perhaps they could do differently,

562
00:33:47,436 --> 00:33:52,836
Speaker 2: you know. But I'm learning. It's a different time now

563
00:33:53,476 --> 00:33:57,276
Speaker 2: from the conversation. We were having this conversation about like

564
00:33:57,916 --> 00:34:00,276
Speaker 2: legacy and like you have to learn from the past

565
00:34:00,316 --> 00:34:02,396
Speaker 2: and you study a certain thing to get good at it.

566
00:34:03,236 --> 00:34:06,516
Speaker 2: But I'm encountering a lot of youth who are very studied,

567
00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:12,676
Speaker 2: and I just wonder. I'm now asking the question, how

568
00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:17,356
Speaker 2: do I get you to let go of perfectionism or

569
00:34:17,436 --> 00:34:21,236
Speaker 2: some idea of how something should be so you can

570
00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:26,716
Speaker 2: flail and within that find something else. And that's my

571
00:34:26,836 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 2: only dogma. I remember doing sessions with Shaka Khan, and

572
00:34:30,196 --> 00:34:33,436
Speaker 2: I used to just be enamored with my friend David Gamson,

573
00:34:33,916 --> 00:34:37,836
Speaker 2: and she would sing like ten lemons, I mean, twenty

574
00:34:37,996 --> 00:34:44,996
Speaker 2: fifty lemons, incredible lemons too, like preserved lemons, just and

575
00:34:45,036 --> 00:34:48,756
Speaker 2: then she now and then then then she'd be then

576
00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:51,876
Speaker 2: she'd be like I feel it, I feel something in

577
00:34:51,876 --> 00:34:55,396
Speaker 2: that one, and then she'd got to build. But there's

578
00:34:55,516 --> 00:34:59,116
Speaker 2: never this like yeah, she's just like you know sometimes

579
00:34:59,116 --> 00:34:59,796
Speaker 2: you know, it's.

580
00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:01,396
Speaker 1: Fun, unbothered by it.

581
00:35:01,436 --> 00:35:05,516
Speaker 2: I'm unbothered by I don't care who's listening. Yeah, like, yeah,

582
00:35:05,636 --> 00:35:10,236
Speaker 2: I'm not afraid who's listening. I can just I might

583
00:35:10,276 --> 00:35:13,076
Speaker 2: make like That's how I'm gonna find where I want

584
00:35:13,076 --> 00:35:13,276
Speaker 2: to be.

585
00:35:15,356 --> 00:35:20,236
Speaker 4: If you're producing an artist as opposed to being the artist,

586
00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:23,156
Speaker 4: how does it change your approach to the.

587
00:35:23,116 --> 00:35:29,436
Speaker 2: Studio depends on what kind of music. It depends on

588
00:35:29,436 --> 00:35:33,396
Speaker 2: what kind of music. When it's like a production where

589
00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:36,836
Speaker 2: it's like we're programming, it's like we're writing vocal part,

590
00:35:37,036 --> 00:35:39,596
Speaker 2: you know, like a just a certain sort of pop

591
00:35:39,716 --> 00:35:45,596
Speaker 2: R and B thing, it's really a detailed interaction. Yeah, minutia,

592
00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:49,876
Speaker 2: I gotta get to a lot of just getting to

593
00:35:50,036 --> 00:35:54,636
Speaker 2: getting the person comfortable. But I'm dying to do more

594
00:35:54,716 --> 00:35:57,556
Speaker 2: sessions where like, let's make a record in three days,

595
00:35:57,716 --> 00:35:59,396
Speaker 2: we're just gonna play live. We're gonna have one day

596
00:35:59,396 --> 00:36:01,836
Speaker 2: of rehearsal, we're gonna play it. You're gonna trust yourself.

597
00:36:02,276 --> 00:36:03,996
Speaker 2: And I find a lot of people aren't really up

598
00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:11,356
Speaker 2: for that. Nope, But I just try to be. And

599
00:36:11,436 --> 00:36:14,196
Speaker 2: I guess it's my age and coming to understand myself

600
00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:17,836
Speaker 2: as a two spirit person. I think there's part of

601
00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:24,356
Speaker 2: me that understands competition, the need for self expression as

602
00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:30,556
Speaker 2: a musician, and that wanting to soar, And then the

603
00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:35,116
Speaker 2: other part of me understands, like, you are giving of yourself.

604
00:36:35,356 --> 00:36:39,196
Speaker 2: How can I make this a good experience for you? Sorry?

605
00:36:39,276 --> 00:36:44,356
Speaker 2: Makes me cry, Like how can I help you make

606
00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:49,556
Speaker 2: something and feel really good about it? And I'm glad

607
00:36:49,636 --> 00:36:53,236
Speaker 2: I'm learning to balance those two natures. One that's like

608
00:36:53,356 --> 00:36:59,316
Speaker 2: I hear you, man, let's let's hit beast mode, right, yeah,

609
00:36:59,716 --> 00:37:02,516
Speaker 2: like you're here with your brothers and sisters and you

610
00:37:02,716 --> 00:37:05,236
Speaker 2: listen hit beast mode. But then there's the part of

611
00:37:05,276 --> 00:37:07,836
Speaker 2: me that there has to be someone there who's like,

612
00:37:09,236 --> 00:37:12,236
Speaker 2: how you feeling Okay? You know you need to take

613
00:37:12,276 --> 00:37:14,716
Speaker 2: a break, You need to walk away from that, Just

614
00:37:14,716 --> 00:37:17,756
Speaker 2: walk away from that. Yeah, let's try and let's try

615
00:37:17,796 --> 00:37:18,476
Speaker 2: another color.

616
00:37:20,156 --> 00:37:20,316
Speaker 1: You know.

617
00:37:20,356 --> 00:37:23,196
Speaker 2: I'm not there to tear you down, which I come

618
00:37:23,236 --> 00:37:26,396
Speaker 2: from the eighties and nineties where the kind of the

619
00:37:26,436 --> 00:37:30,796
Speaker 2: producer was there to poke the bear. You know, there's

620
00:37:30,836 --> 00:37:33,796
Speaker 2: this idea that this should be like a like a

621
00:37:34,236 --> 00:37:36,436
Speaker 2: tussle a little bit. And I don't think I want

622
00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:37,716
Speaker 2: to be that. I want to be the mixture of

623
00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:46,956
Speaker 2: Rudy Van Gelder, Craig Street, Brian Enoa, I read from

624
00:37:46,956 --> 00:37:56,876
Speaker 2: Man and Mary Oliver, you know, and and also not

625
00:37:56,996 --> 00:37:59,276
Speaker 2: be afraid of the dark, like like there's a writer

626
00:37:59,356 --> 00:38:02,036
Speaker 2: I love named Sheila Hetty, and just try to get

627
00:38:02,116 --> 00:38:05,036
Speaker 2: to you in a way where you're just not saying

628
00:38:05,276 --> 00:38:08,636
Speaker 2: like singing and dancing, you're I need I want you

629
00:38:08,676 --> 00:38:10,876
Speaker 2: to have an experience at the music.

630
00:38:12,076 --> 00:38:13,956
Speaker 1: After this last break, we'll be back with the rest

631
00:38:13,956 --> 00:38:17,956
Speaker 1: of our conversation with Michelle and degio Cello and a Browns.

632
00:38:21,916 --> 00:38:24,796
Speaker 1: Here's the rest of our conversation. I mean, maybe we

633
00:38:24,836 --> 00:38:26,556
Speaker 1: can talk about some of those people, what those people

634
00:38:26,636 --> 00:38:28,276
Speaker 1: mean to you. Rudy Van Gelder is a name that

635
00:38:28,356 --> 00:38:29,236
Speaker 1: doesn't get.

636
00:38:29,116 --> 00:38:32,716
Speaker 2: Talked about Sonic and the Blade. He's Sonic in the

637
00:38:32,716 --> 00:38:38,036
Speaker 2: Blade ultimately ruthless editor Craig Street creates an environment for

638
00:38:38,156 --> 00:38:42,676
Speaker 2: you where you can do your best. You know, Don

639
00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:50,436
Speaker 2: was people person, wright studio, sonic genius, arrangement enhancer. That's

640
00:38:50,436 --> 00:38:53,236
Speaker 2: what I've found out a couple of things about you know,

641
00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:55,876
Speaker 2: there's that because that's a part of production I feel

642
00:38:55,996 --> 00:39:00,356
Speaker 2: is lost, the arrangement aspect. You can have a great melody,

643
00:39:00,396 --> 00:39:05,156
Speaker 2: great head, kill it, but who's gonna help you put

644
00:39:05,196 --> 00:39:08,076
Speaker 2: that in a put the steak on a nice plate

645
00:39:08,116 --> 00:39:11,996
Speaker 2: instead of the trash can lid. It's a great steak still, right,

646
00:39:12,516 --> 00:39:15,156
Speaker 2: But how you serve it to me is gonna That's

647
00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:17,756
Speaker 2: gonna affect me. There's like, there's just so many styles

648
00:39:17,756 --> 00:39:22,036
Speaker 2: of production too. Yeah, he's producing in this period of

649
00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:25,396
Speaker 2: time as a young person. I think it means different things.

650
00:39:26,116 --> 00:39:27,996
Speaker 2: It means I made the whole track for you and

651
00:39:28,076 --> 00:39:28,636
Speaker 2: you sing on.

652
00:39:28,636 --> 00:39:30,676
Speaker 3: It, and I think it's good.

653
00:39:30,716 --> 00:39:34,316
Speaker 2: Budgets too, I had we had budgets to go where we.

654
00:39:34,316 --> 00:39:37,916
Speaker 5: Could small, small budgets. In these days, everyone can make

655
00:39:38,436 --> 00:39:41,636
Speaker 5: something that sounds great in a room by themselves.

656
00:39:41,956 --> 00:39:44,396
Speaker 2: But I don't envy him because I also grew up

657
00:39:44,436 --> 00:39:48,116
Speaker 2: with deadlines. I made music when there's like you mix

658
00:39:48,196 --> 00:39:49,996
Speaker 2: that in two days. That's done. I got to take

659
00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:52,116
Speaker 2: the tape off and turn the dobs back and zero

660
00:39:52,196 --> 00:39:54,436
Speaker 2: the board so I can do the next mix. There's

661
00:39:54,476 --> 00:39:57,956
Speaker 2: no going back, because going back costs a whole mix.

662
00:39:59,196 --> 00:40:03,156
Speaker 2: I feel like there's so many like takes. You don't

663
00:40:03,196 --> 00:40:06,076
Speaker 2: have to Yes, you can piece me together. I don't

664
00:40:06,116 --> 00:40:07,916
Speaker 2: have to be able to play through the whole track.

665
00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:11,396
Speaker 2: That's a difference, and I think that affects how things feel.

666
00:40:12,276 --> 00:40:14,836
Speaker 4: Are you too young to have worked with analog tape?

667
00:40:15,116 --> 00:40:17,676
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I totally know how to cut tape. I

668
00:40:17,796 --> 00:40:21,516
Speaker 2: went to engineering school with Bob yespec. He mixed sailing.

669
00:40:24,396 --> 00:40:29,036
Speaker 2: Christopher Crust one of my favorite. But yeah, I'm a luddite.

670
00:40:29,636 --> 00:40:33,236
Speaker 2: I'm not keeping up. I'm really one of those people

671
00:40:33,396 --> 00:40:35,596
Speaker 2: like I missed the time it takes for the tape

672
00:40:35,596 --> 00:40:38,796
Speaker 2: to rewind, so you're just not listening to each section.

673
00:40:38,876 --> 00:40:41,276
Speaker 2: I love, like, go to Bar forty and you're just

674
00:40:41,356 --> 00:40:44,196
Speaker 2: on forty to forty three. Go to Bar ten and

675
00:40:44,236 --> 00:40:46,556
Speaker 2: we'll stay there, and I'm just like, there's no song

676
00:40:46,636 --> 00:40:49,956
Speaker 2: to me anymore. I'm like, I've lost all contacts. He'll

677
00:40:49,956 --> 00:40:51,356
Speaker 2: tell you, I'll be just like, I'll come back when

678
00:40:51,396 --> 00:40:55,396
Speaker 2: y'all are done, just like I have no idea what's

679
00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:58,356
Speaker 2: going on. You know, I don't who listens that way.

680
00:40:59,076 --> 00:41:01,636
Speaker 2: And I'm one of those people. I want to make

681
00:41:01,836 --> 00:41:04,476
Speaker 2: songs for the people who are in their prius and

682
00:41:04,516 --> 00:41:06,156
Speaker 2: they trying to get to work or get to the

683
00:41:06,276 --> 00:41:09,036
Speaker 2: charger before anyone else, and they just want to happen

684
00:41:09,236 --> 00:41:14,156
Speaker 2: good time, and it sounds good. It feels good, you know.

685
00:41:14,316 --> 00:41:17,596
Speaker 1: The new record feels really good, really really good. I

686
00:41:17,636 --> 00:41:20,396
Speaker 1: appreciate that it's a lot of you. I text and

687
00:41:20,476 --> 00:41:23,476
Speaker 1: abe like a couple of nights. Gods, Like, there's so much.

688
00:41:23,796 --> 00:41:25,956
Speaker 1: There's so many different singers too, on the record, like

689
00:41:25,996 --> 00:41:27,956
Speaker 1: you and Jade Hicks, who I don't know who Jaye

690
00:41:27,996 --> 00:41:30,276
Speaker 1: Hicks is. That sounds incredible to guests.

691
00:41:30,556 --> 00:41:35,956
Speaker 2: Guess you should know who Jay Nicks is. Yeah. They

692
00:41:35,996 --> 00:41:39,996
Speaker 2: are a family of singers, Justin Hicks, Jade Hicks and

693
00:41:40,116 --> 00:41:46,476
Speaker 2: Canetia Miller, the Slates. Yeah, and they're from Indiana. They

694
00:41:46,476 --> 00:41:50,876
Speaker 2: are preachers children and but that's the other thing. Sorry

695
00:41:50,916 --> 00:41:53,596
Speaker 2: if I'm long winded. I was given so many great

696
00:41:53,636 --> 00:41:58,636
Speaker 2: opportunities by other musicians, and I really feel the omni

697
00:41:58,676 --> 00:42:01,476
Speaker 2: chord is all is that for me. I think they

698
00:42:01,516 --> 00:42:04,876
Speaker 2: are some of the greatest songwriters and singers. There's Tandese

699
00:42:04,996 --> 00:42:09,436
Speaker 2: mess Why it's from South African, who I think is

700
00:42:09,636 --> 00:42:12,716
Speaker 2: a genius. I just produced something that's coming out with

701
00:42:12,756 --> 00:42:20,956
Speaker 2: her soon. I mean, yeah, I just want to share

702
00:42:21,316 --> 00:42:24,516
Speaker 2: all that I've been able to experience as a musician,

703
00:42:24,636 --> 00:42:29,156
Speaker 2: travel and playing for people. And that's what all the

704
00:42:29,236 --> 00:42:32,076
Speaker 2: vocalists means for me, Like no one does anything alone.

705
00:42:32,476 --> 00:42:36,556
Speaker 2: And also I'm not a dinosaur. I can see the

706
00:42:36,956 --> 00:42:42,076
Speaker 2: meteor coming and as I watch other musicians age and change,

707
00:42:42,076 --> 00:42:46,556
Speaker 2: because I'm fifty six and there's no way I'm trying

708
00:42:46,556 --> 00:42:48,716
Speaker 2: to be up there singing and dancing for the rest

709
00:42:48,796 --> 00:42:51,276
Speaker 2: of my life. And I just want to be a

710
00:42:51,316 --> 00:42:54,516
Speaker 2: good springboard for other people to do their craft and

711
00:42:54,596 --> 00:42:57,556
Speaker 2: do their thing and it's a blessing. I learned so much.

712
00:42:58,196 --> 00:43:01,036
Speaker 2: There's an amazing song I think is I think it's

713
00:43:01,076 --> 00:43:06,636
Speaker 2: one it's on the Dylan level lyrically, which is Gatsby,

714
00:43:06,716 --> 00:43:09,916
Speaker 2: which is written by some more Pender Hues, and like

715
00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:12,356
Speaker 2: hearing that song, it just it's that feeling you have

716
00:43:12,396 --> 00:43:15,276
Speaker 2: when you're like God, it's saying everything I wish I

717
00:43:15,276 --> 00:43:17,916
Speaker 2: could say. And I hadn't had that feeling since hearing

718
00:43:17,956 --> 00:43:21,636
Speaker 2: Prince when I was sixteen and I heard that song

719
00:43:21,676 --> 00:43:24,676
Speaker 2: and I was like, you know, and that's my way.

720
00:43:24,796 --> 00:43:27,076
Speaker 2: I think he's a genius and I want more people

721
00:43:27,556 --> 00:43:30,596
Speaker 2: to be exposed to him. And then it shows the arrangement,

722
00:43:30,716 --> 00:43:34,996
Speaker 2: talents and gifts of Corey Henry who plays on Who Takes,

723
00:43:35,196 --> 00:43:37,756
Speaker 2: because if you listen to both version, that's what I'm hoping,

724
00:43:37,876 --> 00:43:41,876
Speaker 2: like here where he took the harmony, you know, has

725
00:43:41,996 --> 00:43:46,596
Speaker 2: Joel Ross where I'm like virtuostic. But I really loved

726
00:43:46,636 --> 00:43:50,036
Speaker 2: setting him into a more African diaspora with the butriimba,

727
00:43:50,596 --> 00:43:52,676
Speaker 2: the vibes on a few of the tunes where it's

728
00:43:52,716 --> 00:43:56,356
Speaker 2: not like people are listening for his blazing it's just like,

729
00:43:56,476 --> 00:44:02,676
Speaker 2: look how he rhythmically is fitting here and his song

730
00:44:03,116 --> 00:44:06,956
Speaker 2: writing improvisation. You know, I just wanted to be like

731
00:44:07,436 --> 00:44:10,516
Speaker 2: people do a lot of things Josh john Johnson. Yeah,

732
00:44:11,196 --> 00:44:15,596
Speaker 2: just if I may talk about him. I was here

733
00:44:15,636 --> 00:44:18,956
Speaker 2: in LA to score for a TV show and I

734
00:44:19,076 --> 00:44:22,316
Speaker 2: lived here months at a time, months like and I

735
00:44:22,356 --> 00:44:26,596
Speaker 2: would go to the ETA to see Josh club in.

736
00:44:26,436 --> 00:44:30,956
Speaker 3: Holland Park be unfortunately not around anymore.

737
00:44:30,596 --> 00:44:36,556
Speaker 2: But rest in peace, I know, right, that's really sad.

738
00:44:36,836 --> 00:44:39,796
Speaker 2: I know that that was my suoker, that was my like.

739
00:44:40,116 --> 00:44:41,916
Speaker 2: I would just go there and I know I would

740
00:44:41,916 --> 00:44:44,836
Speaker 2: hear something interesting and I heard him play. And then

741
00:44:44,876 --> 00:44:47,756
Speaker 2: that one day I was watching TV and he was

742
00:44:47,796 --> 00:44:52,956
Speaker 2: the keyboard player for Bridges Beyond Bridges and there was

743
00:44:52,996 --> 00:44:55,516
Speaker 2: just all these things coming on. It was so musical,

744
00:44:56,876 --> 00:45:01,556
Speaker 2: and I wanted a producer because also eventually you need

745
00:45:01,556 --> 00:45:04,316
Speaker 2: someone to help you. I'm lucky I have real friends

746
00:45:04,356 --> 00:45:07,316
Speaker 2: with like, let's get some help. And I wanted someone

747
00:45:07,356 --> 00:45:10,716
Speaker 2: who we all respected and loved and who knew us.

748
00:45:11,116 --> 00:45:14,756
Speaker 2: And Josh Johnson said yes. And that was like a

749
00:45:14,796 --> 00:45:19,636
Speaker 2: game changer because he brought something none of us had,

750
00:45:20,516 --> 00:45:23,676
Speaker 2: and he wasn't attached to us and attached to me

751
00:45:24,276 --> 00:45:25,076
Speaker 2: being something.

752
00:45:26,276 --> 00:45:27,956
Speaker 4: What was it that he brought.

753
00:45:28,676 --> 00:45:34,476
Speaker 2: Openness, clarity, virtuosity, and harmony and melodic sonic textures that

754
00:45:34,516 --> 00:45:36,836
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have got to on the sacks. He

755
00:45:36,916 --> 00:45:41,236
Speaker 2: allowed me to bring Oliver Lakes. Oliver can compose. He

756
00:45:41,236 --> 00:45:46,476
Speaker 2: can't play anymore because of Parkinson's, and I felt Josh

757
00:45:46,516 --> 00:45:51,756
Speaker 2: had a similar spirit in essence of heart. But also

758
00:45:52,316 --> 00:45:54,516
Speaker 2: he could take the charts and bring them to life.

759
00:45:55,836 --> 00:46:00,956
Speaker 1: So that's that's Josh playing with Oliver composed. Yes, I

760
00:46:00,996 --> 00:46:01,716
Speaker 1: didn't realize that.

761
00:46:02,036 --> 00:46:07,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also no attachment to us being anything, you know,

762
00:46:07,556 --> 00:46:08,796
Speaker 2: which we've experienced.

763
00:46:09,196 --> 00:46:12,996
Speaker 5: Think we we we behaved better amongst ourselves in the studio,

764
00:46:13,156 --> 00:46:16,156
Speaker 5: having his fifth band member. Essentially he would play with

765
00:46:16,196 --> 00:46:18,156
Speaker 5: us sometimes but I'll just just listen to the controller

766
00:46:18,196 --> 00:46:22,316
Speaker 5: and we we would. We were trying our best because

767
00:46:22,396 --> 00:46:24,116
Speaker 5: you know, we tour a lot, we're all together a lot,

768
00:46:24,196 --> 00:46:27,836
Speaker 5: so there's band dynamics which exist, and like it was

769
00:46:27,836 --> 00:46:30,076
Speaker 5: great to have somebody there. It just made it all

770
00:46:30,116 --> 00:46:32,996
Speaker 5: feel like just a bit more relaxed. And you're Billy

771
00:46:33,036 --> 00:46:38,436
Speaker 5: Presston he was, Yeah, he was in some way Preston

772
00:46:39,676 --> 00:46:41,036
Speaker 5: So yeah, he was at Fifth Beatle.

773
00:46:41,316 --> 00:46:45,676
Speaker 4: Yeah, you recorded with Billy Pressure right, Oh yeah.

774
00:46:45,916 --> 00:46:46,796
Speaker 2: On the second round.

775
00:46:46,916 --> 00:46:48,156
Speaker 1: A few cuts.

776
00:46:48,596 --> 00:46:51,596
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's oh god, just touch it you just

777
00:46:51,756 --> 00:46:54,316
Speaker 2: your neck, Bob. I can't explain, it's nothing like it.

778
00:46:54,396 --> 00:46:56,436
Speaker 2: You're just like, oh my god, what was.

779
00:46:56,356 --> 00:46:57,316
Speaker 1: It like being around it?

780
00:46:58,556 --> 00:46:59,596
Speaker 2: You really want to go there?

781
00:46:59,676 --> 00:46:59,876
Speaker 5: Yeah?

782
00:46:59,916 --> 00:47:00,876
Speaker 1: I want to go there.

783
00:47:01,316 --> 00:47:03,716
Speaker 2: Well, David, I had a son at the time, and

784
00:47:03,796 --> 00:47:06,236
Speaker 2: David Gamson told me not to bring my son to

785
00:47:06,356 --> 00:47:09,636
Speaker 2: the session, to be honest, and he was just someone

786
00:47:09,636 --> 00:47:13,916
Speaker 2: who lived in my mind on a record, so I

787
00:47:13,956 --> 00:47:17,756
Speaker 2: didn't really go with any expectations. I just went to play.

788
00:47:18,036 --> 00:47:23,036
Speaker 2: But he was another one, very little talking, very little talking,

789
00:47:23,396 --> 00:47:25,756
Speaker 2: and we put up the and he would just play.

790
00:47:25,796 --> 00:47:28,836
Speaker 2: He'd be like, you liked that one, and David would

791
00:47:28,876 --> 00:47:31,316
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, do you know you got another one

792
00:47:31,316 --> 00:47:33,316
Speaker 2: in yet? And he would do another one and be

793
00:47:33,756 --> 00:47:38,316
Speaker 2: different and fantastic, and then just to the point where

794
00:47:38,516 --> 00:47:42,076
Speaker 2: Dave was like, let me not abuse this man's kindness.

795
00:47:42,316 --> 00:47:44,996
Speaker 2: But it was just like watching a master. I was

796
00:47:45,156 --> 00:47:50,076
Speaker 2: very young then and not so adept that I should

797
00:47:50,076 --> 00:47:52,076
Speaker 2: have went and talked to him, but I just had

798
00:47:52,236 --> 00:47:54,916
Speaker 2: others around me who were like, let's leave him alone

799
00:47:55,316 --> 00:47:58,116
Speaker 2: at that period of time in his life, you know.

800
00:47:58,196 --> 00:48:00,916
Speaker 2: But I mean, it's amazing to have. It's Billy Preston,

801
00:48:01,476 --> 00:48:04,316
Speaker 2: not so much for the Beatles, but for me, you know,

802
00:48:04,716 --> 00:48:08,636
Speaker 2: that's Nat King Cole's. You know. It was like seeing

803
00:48:08,676 --> 00:48:13,596
Speaker 2: someone my parents loved. It was like adoration and also

804
00:48:13,756 --> 00:48:14,516
Speaker 2: just reverie.

805
00:48:14,916 --> 00:48:19,476
Speaker 4: He was the original B three guy, you know, but

806
00:48:20,116 --> 00:48:22,996
Speaker 4: it wasn't in It was in church, yes, and.

807
00:48:24,436 --> 00:48:24,756
Speaker 2: He was.

808
00:48:25,196 --> 00:48:28,116
Speaker 4: He played with a little Richard. You know, they didn't

809
00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:32,236
Speaker 4: have B three and they didn't have rock and roll before.

810
00:48:33,476 --> 00:48:38,436
Speaker 4: And I always thought what he did with the drawbars,

811
00:48:38,916 --> 00:48:44,396
Speaker 4: he painted like you paint. He created sonic worlds that

812
00:48:44,556 --> 00:48:49,396
Speaker 4: were very emotional by playing with the drawbars, which is

813
00:48:49,436 --> 00:48:50,796
Speaker 4: getting to be kind of a lost art.

814
00:48:51,316 --> 00:48:53,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got it, you come, you gotta come. You

815
00:48:53,436 --> 00:48:57,556
Speaker 2: gotta hear this cat named Jake Sherman though he's the truth.

816
00:48:57,876 --> 00:49:00,556
Speaker 2: But yeah, the bus the organ for me is like

817
00:49:00,796 --> 00:49:04,916
Speaker 2: I call it the chocolate spaceship. It just uh it is.

818
00:49:04,956 --> 00:49:07,836
Speaker 2: It just can take you somewhere. And that's the thing

819
00:49:07,916 --> 00:49:11,036
Speaker 2: I did notice. It was not only was he like

820
00:49:11,196 --> 00:49:15,396
Speaker 2: rhythmically just I hit that word funky, but he was

821
00:49:15,556 --> 00:49:17,636
Speaker 2: just the first ever in life.

822
00:49:17,716 --> 00:49:20,436
Speaker 1: He has the most unique pocket inane.

823
00:49:21,156 --> 00:49:23,676
Speaker 2: But you're right, he could create. He it was like

824
00:49:23,796 --> 00:49:26,356
Speaker 2: he was playing a synth and if you listen, he

825
00:49:26,396 --> 00:49:29,636
Speaker 2: plays on who is he and it's like it's chucking,

826
00:49:30,116 --> 00:49:32,796
Speaker 2: But then you hear these other colors that he's just

827
00:49:32,876 --> 00:49:36,676
Speaker 2: doing in between the verses, and it's him like padding

828
00:49:37,316 --> 00:49:41,236
Speaker 2: with the bars. That session had Paul Riser, and I

829
00:49:41,276 --> 00:49:45,116
Speaker 2: remember just being enamored by him, to be honest, that's

830
00:49:45,196 --> 00:49:48,996
Speaker 2: what I Meeting him was like a dream. He he

831
00:49:49,076 --> 00:49:52,676
Speaker 2: did the arrangement to Rocket Love and we found him

832
00:49:53,316 --> 00:50:02,236
Speaker 2: like he was unhoused and in Detroit, in Detroit, and

833
00:50:02,316 --> 00:50:06,036
Speaker 2: we flew him in and it was really hard because

834
00:50:06,076 --> 00:50:09,116
Speaker 2: this was before you know, just getting him the play

835
00:50:09,156 --> 00:50:13,196
Speaker 2: ain't ticket getting him on the plane, and he finally

836
00:50:13,196 --> 00:50:16,076
Speaker 2: got there and he literally came with nothing, like just

837
00:50:16,156 --> 00:50:19,276
Speaker 2: his body, and we were like, do you have any charts?

838
00:50:19,276 --> 00:50:23,556
Speaker 3: He's like, right here, take me to Kinks. Take me.

839
00:50:26,556 --> 00:50:30,156
Speaker 4: He used to write stuff, you know, in a taxicab

840
00:50:30,236 --> 00:50:32,916
Speaker 4: on the way to the sessions, fright.

841
00:50:33,956 --> 00:50:38,036
Speaker 2: Which is frightening because you have old session waiting for

842
00:50:38,076 --> 00:50:43,516
Speaker 2: the guy rocket Love.

843
00:50:45,076 --> 00:50:45,516
Speaker 1: And then.

844
00:50:47,276 --> 00:50:50,356
Speaker 2: That's that's what took over the Billy President session.

845
00:50:50,436 --> 00:50:52,676
Speaker 1: I never listened to the strings and not really.

846
00:50:53,236 --> 00:50:57,676
Speaker 2: On house with nothing. Okay, that's that's the who. That's

847
00:50:57,676 --> 00:51:00,596
Speaker 2: to me, that's the that Motown world must have been rough.

848
00:51:00,676 --> 00:51:02,796
Speaker 2: I can't imagine what.

849
00:51:02,836 --> 00:51:04,796
Speaker 1: Made you go, what made you get want to get him?

850
00:51:04,796 --> 00:51:09,916
Speaker 1: For that record, Papa was rolling stone.

851
00:51:10,476 --> 00:51:14,636
Speaker 2: Those strings and Tammy stuff. Yeah, he's quint essential to

852
00:51:14,716 --> 00:51:19,316
Speaker 2: your listening experience, and no one knows it's him.

853
00:51:19,356 --> 00:51:22,036
Speaker 4: He did never too much. He did that Lucid Andros,

854
00:51:22,316 --> 00:51:23,196
Speaker 4: he did never too much.

855
00:51:24,956 --> 00:51:26,156
Speaker 1: Those strings are ridiculous.

856
00:51:26,356 --> 00:51:30,116
Speaker 4: That's the whole normal Wifield stuff. He did all the

857
00:51:30,156 --> 00:51:31,756
Speaker 4: Marvin and Tammy, which is just.

858
00:51:33,516 --> 00:51:37,116
Speaker 3: All encyclopedia right there, and.

859
00:51:37,076 --> 00:51:38,076
Speaker 1: All in his head.

860
00:51:39,516 --> 00:51:41,436
Speaker 2: Take many Kinko's, take.

861
00:51:45,276 --> 00:51:47,156
Speaker 4: That, and the sweetest guy.

862
00:51:48,196 --> 00:51:50,756
Speaker 2: He just wanted to go, like like I want to

863
00:51:50,756 --> 00:51:52,716
Speaker 2: go eat. I remember that to me and DA were

864
00:51:52,716 --> 00:51:53,956
Speaker 2: like you want to eat? What do you want to eat?

865
00:51:54,596 --> 00:51:56,556
Speaker 2: He was, That's what I want and we're like, let's

866
00:51:56,836 --> 00:51:59,156
Speaker 2: take it. Eat whatever you want to do.

867
00:52:00,196 --> 00:52:04,956
Speaker 4: You know, he wrote, but what becomes a broken heart?

868
00:52:05,996 --> 00:52:08,916
Speaker 1: He did? Yeah, Oh I didn't know me?

869
00:52:09,756 --> 00:52:10,156
Speaker 2: Wow?

870
00:52:11,356 --> 00:52:14,396
Speaker 4: Wow, which is real deep those voicings.

871
00:52:16,956 --> 00:52:24,236
Speaker 2: Yeah, just just like that is yeah, amazing, amazing hindsight. Yeah,

872
00:52:24,676 --> 00:52:26,596
Speaker 2: it all comes back to me. I just remember being

873
00:52:26,996 --> 00:52:30,476
Speaker 2: completely enchanted by him.

874
00:52:30,516 --> 00:52:33,836
Speaker 1: You got on those first couple of records too, you

875
00:52:33,876 --> 00:52:36,356
Speaker 1: got you You have to have a play with Benny

876
00:52:36,396 --> 00:52:37,876
Speaker 1: Moppin and Bill Summers too.

877
00:52:38,396 --> 00:52:41,876
Speaker 2: Yeah and again and why do I want? You know?

878
00:52:42,236 --> 00:52:46,996
Speaker 2: Headtimes life changing as the bass player, the reason I

879
00:52:46,996 --> 00:52:49,796
Speaker 2: played flat wounds? Yeah, yeah, I remember here. I was

880
00:52:49,836 --> 00:52:53,796
Speaker 2: just like, okay, give it the flat wound game. That's

881
00:52:53,796 --> 00:52:56,196
Speaker 2: when you changed the flat immediately.

882
00:52:56,636 --> 00:52:58,676
Speaker 1: I was just thinking. I was thinking about how you

883
00:52:58,716 --> 00:53:01,956
Speaker 1: referenced a couple of times that Bitter no one like

884
00:53:02,036 --> 00:53:03,236
Speaker 1: you kept you keep. I feel like you said a

885
00:53:03,276 --> 00:53:05,996
Speaker 1: couple of times no maybe, but no one liked Bitter.

886
00:53:06,436 --> 00:53:07,836
Speaker 2: That's the best selling one though.

887
00:53:07,876 --> 00:53:08,836
Speaker 1: Now we're right.

888
00:53:09,236 --> 00:53:12,036
Speaker 2: So what I mean when when when I handed in.

889
00:53:12,076 --> 00:53:17,516
Speaker 1: And so, did that color your perception of the album?

890
00:53:17,836 --> 00:53:20,356
Speaker 1: The label's reaction? Uh?

891
00:53:20,636 --> 00:53:25,396
Speaker 2: Yeah it was, Yes, it did. Yeah. I started the

892
00:53:25,436 --> 00:53:27,956
Speaker 2: record with David Gampson, who had did the first two

893
00:53:28,956 --> 00:53:32,036
Speaker 2: and they and we went in for a meeting and

894
00:53:32,076 --> 00:53:34,356
Speaker 2: they didn't like it, and they fired him right there

895
00:53:34,396 --> 00:53:34,956
Speaker 2: in front of me.

896
00:53:35,476 --> 00:53:37,196
Speaker 1: What did they not like? Do you remember?

897
00:53:37,676 --> 00:53:43,636
Speaker 2: They told me I should make black music. Okay, to

898
00:53:43,716 --> 00:53:47,196
Speaker 2: be honest, if you want to be honest, was it?

899
00:53:47,236 --> 00:53:47,996
Speaker 1: Was it? A black guy?

900
00:53:49,676 --> 00:53:52,476
Speaker 2: Was the head? Of the label said that and along

901
00:53:52,516 --> 00:53:55,076
Speaker 2: with two other and our people, you.

902
00:53:55,076 --> 00:53:58,236
Speaker 1: Should black did no reference to what black would.

903
00:53:59,036 --> 00:54:05,116
Speaker 2: I didn't have the wherewithal to come back with any

904
00:54:05,196 --> 00:54:11,276
Speaker 2: Woody repartee at that time. I'm kind of like, yeah,

905
00:54:11,276 --> 00:54:13,916
Speaker 2: I wasn't really I just was crushed. I think I am.

906
00:54:14,756 --> 00:54:17,516
Speaker 2: I'm like literal spice, you know. I just was like

907
00:54:17,676 --> 00:54:21,116
Speaker 2: I just couldn't compute. And at that time, I look

908
00:54:21,156 --> 00:54:23,076
Speaker 2: at It's funny you asked me that question about was

909
00:54:23,116 --> 00:54:29,676
Speaker 2: I sober Bidder is completely Sober Records. It was the

910
00:54:29,716 --> 00:54:32,956
Speaker 2: moment like I wanted to change my life. I moved

911
00:54:32,956 --> 00:54:36,236
Speaker 2: from an urban situation to la I was like, you

912
00:54:36,316 --> 00:54:39,676
Speaker 2: have palm trees. I'd rather struggle here by the beach

913
00:54:40,796 --> 00:54:42,916
Speaker 2: and like change. Like it was like I felt I

914
00:54:43,036 --> 00:54:47,156
Speaker 2: was at the best I was in my life on

915
00:54:47,196 --> 00:54:50,956
Speaker 2: that record. And then I handed it in and they

916
00:54:50,996 --> 00:54:56,796
Speaker 2: were just like, no, absolutely not. And so I had

917
00:54:56,876 --> 00:54:59,396
Speaker 2: a little bit of the budget left and I called

918
00:54:59,436 --> 00:55:05,956
Speaker 2: my dear friend Craig Street. He produced Norah Jones, Sondra Wilson,

919
00:55:07,636 --> 00:55:12,036
Speaker 2: just a life changing person my life. I met him

920
00:55:12,076 --> 00:55:16,076
Speaker 2: when I was like twenty. He was plastering walls and

921
00:55:16,156 --> 00:55:20,276
Speaker 2: he heard my demo and got me some work. But

922
00:55:20,356 --> 00:55:22,676
Speaker 2: I called him and that's where I met Chris Bruce

923
00:55:22,716 --> 00:55:26,356
Speaker 2: and Doyle bram Hall. Wendy Melvowe plays on that record,

924
00:55:26,636 --> 00:55:33,276
Speaker 2: Abe Laboreal Junior. Just yeah. So the record here as

925
00:55:33,316 --> 00:55:38,076
Speaker 2: Bitter Now is like I was feeling great and told

926
00:55:38,196 --> 00:55:41,916
Speaker 2: completely clear my mind and you do all that and

927
00:55:41,956 --> 00:55:44,476
Speaker 2: we did it for did it in five days. It's

928
00:55:44,516 --> 00:55:48,796
Speaker 2: a five day record, you know, five day record. Because

929
00:55:48,796 --> 00:55:50,156
Speaker 2: that's the thing about Craig too, why I want to

930
00:55:50,156 --> 00:55:55,156
Speaker 2: bring that back. Working with him in some great experiences

931
00:55:55,236 --> 00:55:58,276
Speaker 2: making records, and they're done in a with a deadline,

932
00:55:58,276 --> 00:56:00,556
Speaker 2: with a certain amount of time. And the bidder was

933
00:56:00,556 --> 00:56:03,116
Speaker 2: one of those like this is what we got, We're done,

934
00:56:03,796 --> 00:56:05,476
Speaker 2: it's done, go mix it.

935
00:56:05,956 --> 00:56:07,756
Speaker 1: So you worked on it first with David Gamson and

936
00:56:07,756 --> 00:56:10,996
Speaker 1: then Craig Stree. How much of the stuff with Gamson

937
00:56:11,276 --> 00:56:14,676
Speaker 1: is still on It's still on the record that we.

938
00:56:14,636 --> 00:56:17,996
Speaker 2: Hear nothing Nothing. The only song I knew I wanted

939
00:56:17,996 --> 00:56:20,196
Speaker 2: to do with David because I really liked singing with

940
00:56:20,356 --> 00:56:22,116
Speaker 2: David was fool of Me.

941
00:56:23,196 --> 00:56:27,956
Speaker 1: That's a great song beyond the record labels, you know,

942
00:56:28,076 --> 00:56:32,156
Speaker 1: rebuke of it, which you know, whatever, did it? Did

943
00:56:32,156 --> 00:56:35,236
Speaker 1: it feel How did that feel putting that out there?

944
00:56:35,236 --> 00:56:38,036
Speaker 1: I mean that almost feels like almost it feels like

945
00:56:38,116 --> 00:56:42,076
Speaker 1: the the the musical equivalent of like putting an autobiography

946
00:56:42,156 --> 00:56:44,996
Speaker 1: out of almost like wow, I'm really this is.

947
00:56:45,636 --> 00:56:48,236
Speaker 2: I mean, where's the artists? Are self absorbed? I wasn't

948
00:56:48,236 --> 00:56:50,796
Speaker 2: thinking about that at that time, Like this is what

949
00:56:50,836 --> 00:56:55,196
Speaker 2: I feel. You're in your own cathartic self absorption. I

950
00:56:55,196 --> 00:56:57,196
Speaker 2: don't really, I didn't really think about any of that.

951
00:56:57,556 --> 00:56:59,316
Speaker 2: It was just I had to go tour record with

952
00:56:59,436 --> 00:57:01,916
Speaker 2: no support. That's that's all I was like, I have

953
00:57:01,956 --> 00:57:04,876
Speaker 2: a record that no one and they kind of shelved

954
00:57:04,916 --> 00:57:07,756
Speaker 2: it and that was cool. And that shows you the

955
00:57:07,756 --> 00:57:12,796
Speaker 2: beauty of the pollination of film, TV and music. Someone

956
00:57:12,916 --> 00:57:15,356
Speaker 2: used it in a film and then that changed the

957
00:57:15,396 --> 00:57:18,676
Speaker 2: whole trajectory of the record. You know, I learned a

958
00:57:18,676 --> 00:57:21,876
Speaker 2: lot from that experience. It made me want to go

959
00:57:21,916 --> 00:57:25,076
Speaker 2: and hide, But at the same time, that's the moment

960
00:57:25,476 --> 00:57:29,276
Speaker 2: I had to realize that's where you click in and go.

961
00:57:29,596 --> 00:57:33,516
Speaker 2: They're not important, They're They're just a patron. I don't

962
00:57:33,556 --> 00:57:36,156
Speaker 2: feel this about you. See that's funny. This is why

963
00:57:36,196 --> 00:57:39,556
Speaker 2: this relationship is so different being on Blue Note now

964
00:57:39,636 --> 00:57:44,716
Speaker 2: because I am older and more present in myself. I

965
00:57:44,756 --> 00:57:48,156
Speaker 2: see that we're working together to bring something fruition. I

966
00:57:48,796 --> 00:57:50,796
Speaker 2: was at it. That was at a time on Maverick

967
00:57:50,836 --> 00:57:54,676
Speaker 2: where you're just the tax write off. Are the artists?

968
00:57:54,756 --> 00:57:57,996
Speaker 2: I needed you to make hits, you know, And so

969
00:57:58,076 --> 00:58:00,156
Speaker 2: when they didn't like it, I just kind of moved

970
00:58:00,156 --> 00:58:02,196
Speaker 2: on in my mind of like I've got I met

971
00:58:02,196 --> 00:58:06,476
Speaker 2: Wendy melvow And and Lisa, you know, Coleman. I'm good. I

972
00:58:06,476 --> 00:58:09,956
Speaker 2: played with Abe Laborel and we made loops together. I'm good.

973
00:58:10,836 --> 00:58:13,996
Speaker 2: I met Doyle Bramhall, who is like you meet Doyle.

974
00:58:14,356 --> 00:58:17,076
Speaker 2: He came to that session with with Wendy. They were

975
00:58:17,076 --> 00:58:19,316
Speaker 2: working on his record, and that is like yeah. I

976
00:58:19,356 --> 00:58:22,116
Speaker 2: was like, I'm good I met him. And I only

977
00:58:22,156 --> 00:58:24,556
Speaker 2: say this because they always remind me I met him.

978
00:58:24,556 --> 00:58:26,316
Speaker 2: I was like, if I played like you, I wouldn't

979
00:58:26,356 --> 00:58:30,796
Speaker 2: need nobody, no girlfriend, no nothing, if I'd just be

980
00:58:30,916 --> 00:58:35,196
Speaker 2: with myself listening to myself, just like look at me,

981
00:58:35,356 --> 00:58:42,156
Speaker 2: go I'm amazingment Oh no, he is like amazing. I

982
00:58:42,316 --> 00:58:45,156
Speaker 2: just would be like, I don't need you. And Doyle

983
00:58:46,036 --> 00:58:51,436
Speaker 2: I want to he just he is. He is. He's

984
00:58:51,476 --> 00:58:55,196
Speaker 2: floating around the world. It'll come together soon. Yeah, okay,

985
00:58:55,236 --> 00:58:56,356
Speaker 2: okay's floating.

986
00:58:56,756 --> 00:58:59,876
Speaker 1: Did you did you meet you knew Prince before Lisa

987
00:58:59,956 --> 00:59:00,476
Speaker 1: and Wendy?

988
00:59:00,876 --> 00:59:01,116
Speaker 5: No?

989
00:59:01,116 --> 00:59:04,076
Speaker 2: No, uh.

990
00:59:04,436 --> 00:59:04,716
Speaker 3: I was.

991
00:59:04,876 --> 00:59:07,596
Speaker 2: I had a choice to sign from signed to his

992
00:59:07,716 --> 00:59:12,076
Speaker 2: label or Madonna's label, or Warner Brothers Paisley Park, Warners

993
00:59:12,756 --> 00:59:15,996
Speaker 2: by Maverick, and I was working with Benny Medina and

994
00:59:16,036 --> 00:59:19,196
Speaker 2: Peter Warner. Yeah, they were the people that brought me there.

995
00:59:19,996 --> 00:59:22,636
Speaker 2: And Peter and Benny were like, do not go to

996
00:59:22,636 --> 00:59:28,756
Speaker 2: the Prince label, you know, they were nice about yeah,

997
00:59:28,796 --> 00:59:30,716
Speaker 2: And I was like really, I was just like because

998
00:59:30,716 --> 00:59:32,156
Speaker 2: that was gonna be my I was like, I'm going there,

999
00:59:32,156 --> 00:59:33,396
Speaker 2: and they were like, nah, I don't go there.

1000
00:59:34,036 --> 00:59:34,476
Speaker 1: Go here.

1001
00:59:34,916 --> 00:59:37,356
Speaker 2: It's the You'll be the second artist they signed. You'll

1002
00:59:37,356 --> 00:59:39,876
Speaker 2: get a lot of just it's all under Warners. Just

1003
00:59:39,916 --> 00:59:42,556
Speaker 2: go here. And I was like okay, And so I

1004
00:59:42,676 --> 00:59:44,996
Speaker 2: chose that. But I talked him on the phone. But

1005
00:59:45,076 --> 00:59:51,076
Speaker 2: him and I never really had good interactions. I can't

1006
00:59:51,116 --> 00:59:54,196
Speaker 2: say why, but I've you know, I loved him. He's

1007
00:59:54,316 --> 00:59:57,076
Speaker 2: like a great inspiration. I think him and I would

1008
00:59:57,076 --> 01:00:01,236
Speaker 2: have had a much better relationship outside of cameras and

1009
01:00:01,276 --> 01:00:03,556
Speaker 2: sort of things like that. I think he had a

1010
01:00:03,596 --> 01:00:08,116
Speaker 2: lot of expectations, and I'm a pretty regular person. I

1011
01:00:08,156 --> 01:00:13,116
Speaker 2: am really easy going, and there's a lot of energy

1012
01:00:13,156 --> 01:00:16,476
Speaker 2: and stuff around him at that time, and so I

1013
01:00:16,596 --> 01:00:19,396
Speaker 2: just sort of knew I should pull back and he

1014
01:00:19,436 --> 01:00:24,476
Speaker 2: could be. He could be harsh if you did something

1015
01:00:24,556 --> 01:00:27,956
Speaker 2: he felt you shouldn't do. Yeah, you went to the

1016
01:00:27,956 --> 01:00:31,956
Speaker 2: studio with him, and studio with him, you did a

1017
01:00:32,036 --> 01:00:37,396
Speaker 2: couple of times in Minnesota in New York.

1018
01:00:38,596 --> 01:00:42,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like what did you guys work? Was it for

1019
01:00:42,516 --> 01:00:43,196
Speaker 1: you or for him?

1020
01:00:43,356 --> 01:00:43,716
Speaker 3: For him?

1021
01:00:43,916 --> 01:00:47,396
Speaker 2: Yeah, But it's it's a lot, it's a it's a

1022
01:00:47,516 --> 01:00:52,556
Speaker 2: lot of it's it's uh, how do I say this.

1023
01:00:56,636 --> 01:00:59,196
Speaker 2: I met Wendy and Lisa before I met him, and

1024
01:00:59,236 --> 01:01:03,396
Speaker 2: they told me, maintain yourself. Don't drink the kool aid,

1025
01:01:04,636 --> 01:01:07,676
Speaker 2: just to be honest. That's what they said verbatim. And

1026
01:01:07,716 --> 01:01:10,436
Speaker 2: I had to and I could see how you like,

1027
01:01:10,516 --> 01:01:16,756
Speaker 2: it's mesmerizing to point you lose yourself, And I just refused.

1028
01:01:16,876 --> 01:01:19,036
Speaker 2: I don't. I didn't want that in my life at

1029
01:01:19,076 --> 01:01:22,756
Speaker 2: that time. Just just the aura, the aura, the demand,

1030
01:01:23,276 --> 01:01:27,956
Speaker 2: the view, plus I worked. I mean, yeah, he just

1031
01:01:28,036 --> 01:01:33,196
Speaker 2: could be. He could be difficult and opinionated in a way.

1032
01:01:33,516 --> 01:01:34,276
Speaker 2: Because I try not to.

1033
01:01:34,356 --> 01:01:34,636
Speaker 1: I don't.

1034
01:01:34,676 --> 01:01:36,836
Speaker 2: I never want to speak ill of those who are

1035
01:01:36,836 --> 01:01:40,316
Speaker 2: not here to speak for themselves. But it was complicated.

1036
01:01:40,356 --> 01:01:42,836
Speaker 2: I wish I could. I can't imagine what it was

1037
01:01:42,996 --> 01:01:48,196
Speaker 2: like to be him. I really cannot unfathomable, you know,

1038
01:01:48,476 --> 01:01:52,756
Speaker 2: not just the gift, but just being someone where like

1039
01:01:52,836 --> 01:01:54,756
Speaker 2: you had to stare at him. It was the most

1040
01:01:54,916 --> 01:01:56,076
Speaker 2: captivating person.

1041
01:01:57,236 --> 01:01:59,796
Speaker 1: You know. Do you remember first encountering his music?

1042
01:02:00,236 --> 01:02:04,796
Speaker 2: Oh exactly, I know exactly where I was. I was twelve,

1043
01:02:05,116 --> 01:02:07,756
Speaker 2: and I was at a party my parents were at

1044
01:02:08,236 --> 01:02:10,476
Speaker 2: and they were all upset, was playing cards or something,

1045
01:02:10,596 --> 01:02:12,516
Speaker 2: and it was the four U record and I played

1046
01:02:12,556 --> 01:02:15,556
Speaker 2: it and I never heard anything like that in my life.

1047
01:02:15,596 --> 01:02:17,276
Speaker 2: And it's the moment I said, I'm going to be

1048
01:02:17,276 --> 01:02:19,956
Speaker 2: a musician. And that's what That's what he means to me.

1049
01:02:20,276 --> 01:02:21,876
Speaker 2: That's the moment I was like, I'm going to be

1050
01:02:21,916 --> 01:02:23,836
Speaker 2: a musician. Wow, that's what I want to do.

1051
01:02:24,196 --> 01:02:24,556
Speaker 1: Wow.

1052
01:02:25,196 --> 01:02:26,916
Speaker 3: What drew you to it? The photo? Oh?

1053
01:02:26,996 --> 01:02:30,556
Speaker 2: Yeah, the photo and going by the afro and he's

1054
01:02:30,596 --> 01:02:33,956
Speaker 2: sitting on the back naked on a horse. Oh my god,

1055
01:02:34,516 --> 01:02:37,796
Speaker 2: you're twelve, you know your home, it's nothing like it.

1056
01:02:37,876 --> 01:02:40,196
Speaker 1: Just putting myself in your situation, if at that time

1057
01:02:40,716 --> 01:02:42,596
Speaker 1: I had heard Prince was interested in signing, they would

1058
01:02:42,596 --> 01:02:44,636
Speaker 1: have I would have been there would have been nothing stopping,

1059
01:02:44,916 --> 01:02:46,396
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing stopping, yes.

1060
01:02:47,316 --> 01:02:49,956
Speaker 2: Sheena Easton. He wrote, you know he put out music

1061
01:02:49,956 --> 01:02:52,876
Speaker 2: and he wouldn't let the person be. Yes, there were

1062
01:02:53,436 --> 01:02:57,316
Speaker 2: you know, like having your own label you have to do.

1063
01:02:57,396 --> 01:03:00,596
Speaker 2: You want to make there's a brand to consider, But

1064
01:03:00,676 --> 01:03:03,916
Speaker 2: at that time he was the brand, and I think

1065
01:03:03,956 --> 01:03:07,116
Speaker 2: I want to make something different. And to be honest,

1066
01:03:07,156 --> 01:03:08,836
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it, I think I was just a

1067
01:03:08,836 --> 01:03:13,676
Speaker 2: little to urban for him. I'm a little I have

1068
01:03:13,716 --> 01:03:18,116
Speaker 2: a little more edge less, a little less Hollywood. I'm not.

1069
01:03:18,756 --> 01:03:20,836
Speaker 2: I'm not the lights don't fool me.

1070
01:03:22,236 --> 01:03:27,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, being labeled to Madonna's car, I guess there's a

1071
01:03:27,156 --> 01:03:27,676
Speaker 1: little different.

1072
01:03:28,756 --> 01:03:37,316
Speaker 2: It's a little different, different vibrations, different parties to different parties.

1073
01:03:37,916 --> 01:03:43,436
Speaker 1: I'd like to have seen both. Well, do you remember

1074
01:03:43,956 --> 01:03:46,556
Speaker 1: like going to one of your first party were just like,

1075
01:03:46,796 --> 01:03:48,116
Speaker 1: you know, a Madonna.

1076
01:03:48,516 --> 01:03:50,956
Speaker 2: One of my first parties was the book party with

1077
01:03:51,196 --> 01:03:58,276
Speaker 2: the sex book. Yeah, okay, yeah, a different different thing.

1078
01:03:58,996 --> 01:04:07,396
Speaker 1: Came there, Yes, all of him? Wow, that's wow.

1079
01:04:07,796 --> 01:04:10,196
Speaker 5: Didn't you go into the like you went on like

1080
01:04:10,316 --> 01:04:11,676
Speaker 5: just to meet her at the library or something you

1081
01:04:11,756 --> 01:04:14,556
Speaker 5: invited at the library.

1082
01:04:13,756 --> 01:04:19,316
Speaker 2: I realized you can't come to the library, girl. Yeah,

1083
01:04:19,436 --> 01:04:21,716
Speaker 2: the met met. I was like, let's go to the

1084
01:04:21,756 --> 01:04:23,676
Speaker 2: met And then I was like oh, and then all

1085
01:04:23,716 --> 01:04:26,556
Speaker 2: these people came. I was like, this is not I

1086
01:04:26,676 --> 01:04:30,036
Speaker 2: just warned. Yeah, she agreed to Yeah, she's like great

1087
01:04:30,116 --> 01:04:34,116
Speaker 2: and and then yeah yeah, and I was like, that's

1088
01:04:34,236 --> 01:04:38,676
Speaker 2: I don't that's not happening. But that's the prince thing too,

1089
01:04:39,116 --> 01:04:42,276
Speaker 2: just like we can't go hang out never. It's never

1090
01:04:42,356 --> 01:04:44,836
Speaker 2: going to be like I can cook for you and

1091
01:04:44,996 --> 01:04:45,356
Speaker 2: make it.

1092
01:04:45,436 --> 01:04:45,676
Speaker 1: You know.

1093
01:04:45,796 --> 01:04:48,516
Speaker 2: It's just you're larger than life.

1094
01:04:49,036 --> 01:04:50,836
Speaker 1: I didn't realize until we were going to do this

1095
01:04:50,916 --> 01:04:57,476
Speaker 1: that you your contribution to Bedtime Story that was supposed

1096
01:04:57,476 --> 01:05:02,316
Speaker 1: to be Tupac that sposed to be yeah, rest in peace. Yeah.

1097
01:05:01,596 --> 01:05:03,596
Speaker 1: Did you know that at the time.

1098
01:05:04,116 --> 01:05:04,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, we all knew that.

1099
01:05:05,036 --> 01:05:05,396
Speaker 1: At the time.

1100
01:05:07,476 --> 01:05:10,436
Speaker 2: I was like, we have a problem, you know, like

1101
01:05:10,716 --> 01:05:12,916
Speaker 2: record needs to be done because it was very close

1102
01:05:12,996 --> 01:05:14,036
Speaker 2: to that. Yeah.

1103
01:05:15,076 --> 01:05:17,276
Speaker 1: Mm hm did you meet did you meet podcast? Oh?

1104
01:05:17,356 --> 01:05:18,156
Speaker 2: Yes, several times.

1105
01:05:18,156 --> 01:05:18,636
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

1106
01:05:18,876 --> 01:05:21,076
Speaker 2: Such a kind man in my experience of him.

1107
01:05:21,756 --> 01:05:23,596
Speaker 1: And he spent the time in Baltimore too, So I

1108
01:05:23,596 --> 01:05:24,676
Speaker 1: guess you would understand that.

1109
01:05:24,916 --> 01:05:28,276
Speaker 2: You remember the last time we were it was a

1110
01:05:28,276 --> 01:05:31,796
Speaker 2: Ben Harper show. We ran ran to each other, Ben Harper,

1111
01:05:32,356 --> 01:05:32,876
Speaker 2: Ben Harper.

1112
01:05:32,996 --> 01:05:35,276
Speaker 1: What a time to be alive, Man Harper.

1113
01:05:36,836 --> 01:05:40,356
Speaker 2: Yeah. I met Rick James. That's a big one for me.

1114
01:05:40,476 --> 01:05:43,236
Speaker 2: Rick James and Elder Barge came to one of my shows,

1115
01:05:43,276 --> 01:05:44,556
Speaker 2: and I do brag about that.

1116
01:05:45,756 --> 01:05:47,196
Speaker 1: To get they came together.

1117
01:05:46,956 --> 01:05:51,676
Speaker 2: Together together and they hung out together the whole night,

1118
01:05:51,916 --> 01:05:56,356
Speaker 2: and they were on ten and they came in the

1119
01:05:56,436 --> 01:06:00,316
Speaker 2: dressing room and sung for us at the piano. It

1120
01:06:00,396 --> 01:06:03,316
Speaker 2: was incredible. They said, just was jamming out. I do

1121
01:06:03,396 --> 01:06:05,796
Speaker 2: brag about that one. They came. They came to your

1122
01:06:05,836 --> 01:06:09,476
Speaker 2: show and sang my show and then hung on address

1123
01:06:09,516 --> 01:06:14,116
Speaker 2: and saying they were they was feeling it. They were

1124
01:06:14,236 --> 01:06:19,876
Speaker 2: very alive together. Yeah, that's good. That's a highlight for me.

1125
01:06:20,396 --> 01:06:24,236
Speaker 2: And Larry Graham. Larry Graham and Marcus Miller stood on

1126
01:06:24,276 --> 01:06:26,796
Speaker 2: the side of the stage while I put that was

1127
01:06:26,556 --> 01:06:28,716
Speaker 2: that's that's hard.

1128
01:06:29,116 --> 01:06:30,396
Speaker 1: What would you know.

1129
01:06:30,516 --> 01:06:32,716
Speaker 2: I was still young and college full of college, and

1130
01:06:32,756 --> 01:06:34,236
Speaker 2: I was just like, I'm gonna play the hell out

1131
01:06:34,276 --> 01:06:34,636
Speaker 2: of the base.

1132
01:06:34,956 --> 01:06:37,756
Speaker 4: So it inspired you rather than I would.

1133
01:06:37,716 --> 01:06:40,756
Speaker 2: Intimidate, who's your favorite bass player.

1134
01:06:41,876 --> 01:06:45,156
Speaker 4: Probably James Jamison, Willie Dixon.

1135
01:06:45,356 --> 01:06:45,756
Speaker 3: I just.

1136
01:06:48,036 --> 01:06:49,236
Speaker 4: You know Ron Carter too.

1137
01:06:49,436 --> 01:06:51,876
Speaker 2: You know how's your right?

1138
01:06:53,076 --> 01:06:56,156
Speaker 4: You blew my mind. I was telling him that we

1139
01:06:56,156 --> 01:06:59,676
Speaker 4: were on the phone maybe a year ago, and I

1140
01:06:59,756 --> 01:07:01,556
Speaker 4: was telling her I took a lesson from Ron Carter

1141
01:07:01,596 --> 01:07:03,876
Speaker 4: and he showed me things about releasing the notes, and

1142
01:07:03,916 --> 01:07:07,916
Speaker 4: I asked her how she did it, but she misunderstood.

1143
01:07:08,036 --> 01:07:09,756
Speaker 4: But I was saying it, and she on me when

1144
01:07:10,156 --> 01:07:12,916
Speaker 4: she did it, which she said, Oh, I released it

1145
01:07:12,956 --> 01:07:17,276
Speaker 4: like in rhythm with the high hat. You releasing the

1146
01:07:17,316 --> 01:07:21,876
Speaker 4: note is as important to the groove as attacking the note.

1147
01:07:22,396 --> 01:07:25,836
Speaker 4: And that just never crossed my mind before Wow.

1148
01:07:25,716 --> 01:07:27,636
Speaker 2: Went back, told the go go thing too, you got

1149
01:07:27,636 --> 01:07:28,756
Speaker 2: to make all that space.

1150
01:07:28,876 --> 01:07:32,116
Speaker 4: Well it opened. I worked on that like I was

1151
01:07:32,156 --> 01:07:34,556
Speaker 4: on tour when I talked to her, and that's all

1152
01:07:34,596 --> 01:07:36,596
Speaker 4: I thought about for the rest of the tour. It

1153
01:07:36,676 --> 01:07:43,196
Speaker 4: just and it changed. It wasn't long enough to internalize

1154
01:07:43,236 --> 01:07:46,556
Speaker 4: it fully, but it changed the way I approached it.

1155
01:07:46,596 --> 01:07:48,836
Speaker 4: And when you change that and you changed the next

1156
01:07:48,876 --> 01:07:53,916
Speaker 4: note you choose, so it it set the tour alight.

1157
01:07:54,116 --> 01:07:54,276
Speaker 1: Man.

1158
01:07:54,316 --> 01:07:58,796
Speaker 4: It was fantastic that, like six months I rode that wave.

1159
01:07:59,036 --> 01:08:01,956
Speaker 1: What is your relationship with America. I guess. You know.

1160
01:08:02,036 --> 01:08:05,196
Speaker 1: You grew up in the capital, the nation's capital. Your

1161
01:08:05,316 --> 01:08:11,876
Speaker 1: dad was a military man, joined the military. Yeah, I

1162
01:08:11,876 --> 01:08:14,716
Speaker 1: took the as fab test. I was hoping to get

1163
01:08:14,756 --> 01:08:17,636
Speaker 1: into the Air Force, but I only scored high enough

1164
01:08:17,636 --> 01:08:18,876
Speaker 1: to get in the Army. I don't know if they

1165
01:08:18,956 --> 01:08:25,756
Speaker 1: tell people that, like, yeah, I just I just thought

1166
01:08:25,796 --> 01:08:29,956
Speaker 1: there was no future. The way I grew up, it

1167
01:08:29,996 --> 01:08:34,236
Speaker 1: was really hard, and not being educated, I thought that

1168
01:08:34,236 --> 01:08:36,116
Speaker 1: would be the path for me. But could you imagine

1169
01:08:36,116 --> 01:08:36,436
Speaker 1: me with.

1170
01:08:36,436 --> 01:08:43,516
Speaker 2: A gun exactly being angry? Can you imagine the energy

1171
01:08:43,556 --> 01:08:51,156
Speaker 2: I have on that first record and I have got Yeah,

1172
01:08:51,156 --> 01:08:53,516
Speaker 2: I'd be a different person, you know, But my father

1173
01:08:54,036 --> 01:08:56,436
Speaker 2: was in the military, and that military changed my life.

1174
01:08:57,356 --> 01:08:58,076
Speaker 1: Did you watch your.

1175
01:08:59,916 --> 01:09:06,156
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yes, yeah, everyone did that. I'm I'm born

1176
01:09:06,436 --> 01:09:12,236
Speaker 2: in August twenty ninth, nineteen sixty eight. Okay, I am

1177
01:09:12,356 --> 01:09:17,316
Speaker 2: as old as civil rights is. And when I was

1178
01:09:17,316 --> 01:09:20,156
Speaker 2: growing up, you know, my mother was like, you need

1179
01:09:20,196 --> 01:09:23,236
Speaker 2: to get a post office job, or you need to

1180
01:09:23,276 --> 01:09:26,236
Speaker 2: figure out to go to community college or join the military.

1181
01:09:26,636 --> 01:09:30,916
Speaker 2: Those were your options. Like that's what was expected of me.

1182
01:09:32,076 --> 01:09:32,276
Speaker 1: You know.

1183
01:09:33,916 --> 01:09:36,516
Speaker 2: My mother has a fourth grade education and my father

1184
01:09:36,596 --> 01:09:40,676
Speaker 2: only graduated high school, so you know that their dream

1185
01:09:40,716 --> 01:09:45,116
Speaker 2: for me was just to find something solid. So of course, yeah,

1186
01:09:45,276 --> 01:09:48,796
Speaker 2: I mean, my relationship with America is I am the

1187
01:09:48,876 --> 01:09:54,596
Speaker 2: offspring of an obsolete machine. You can't legislate kindness, You

1188
01:09:54,676 --> 01:09:56,796
Speaker 2: can't make a law that's going to make you treat

1189
01:09:56,876 --> 01:10:01,196
Speaker 2: me differently from you know, by the color of my skin.

1190
01:10:01,796 --> 01:10:03,956
Speaker 2: But I can't imagine what it was like for them

1191
01:10:03,996 --> 01:10:08,196
Speaker 2: to grow up way before me and have the experiences

1192
01:10:08,236 --> 01:10:11,156
Speaker 2: they had, raise children and try to be a healthy

1193
01:10:11,236 --> 01:10:13,556
Speaker 2: human being. I was angry at my parents, angry at

1194
01:10:13,596 --> 01:10:16,836
Speaker 2: my upbringing, and I have to realize that we're all

1195
01:10:17,636 --> 01:10:24,796
Speaker 2: all Americans are subject to living somewhere where it's sort

1196
01:10:24,796 --> 01:10:29,316
Speaker 2: of a revisionist history. I have to realize I can't.

1197
01:10:29,516 --> 01:10:32,676
Speaker 2: I can't think about my like, you know, freedom loving,

1198
01:10:33,276 --> 01:10:37,996
Speaker 2: you know fathers who made the Constitution. That's not my story.

1199
01:10:38,556 --> 01:10:41,916
Speaker 2: So I no longer connect to it, you know, as

1200
01:10:41,916 --> 01:10:45,396
Speaker 2: an American, I feel like it's complicated and we need

1201
01:10:45,436 --> 01:10:48,996
Speaker 2: a lot more nuanced conversations. But I know in my

1202
01:10:49,156 --> 01:10:52,596
Speaker 2: heart of hearts that we all no matter your race,

1203
01:10:52,756 --> 01:10:56,996
Speaker 2: your gender, whatever. All these these these like generalizations you

1204
01:10:57,036 --> 01:11:00,196
Speaker 2: want to get under little flags that at the bottom

1205
01:11:00,236 --> 01:11:02,396
Speaker 2: of it, You're just a human being trying to make

1206
01:11:02,436 --> 01:11:07,476
Speaker 2: the best of this unexplainable experience. And so I just

1207
01:11:07,516 --> 01:11:12,956
Speaker 2: want to cause less infusion, cause less problems. And whenever

1208
01:11:12,996 --> 01:11:15,796
Speaker 2: you can encounter people and share this message of love

1209
01:11:16,116 --> 01:11:19,436
Speaker 2: without sounding hokey, that's what I try to do. You know,

1210
01:11:20,436 --> 01:11:23,036
Speaker 2: no one has any answers. I no longer. I don't

1211
01:11:23,036 --> 01:11:25,676
Speaker 2: believe in power anymore. I think I was raised to

1212
01:11:25,716 --> 01:11:28,396
Speaker 2: think like, woh, you need to gain power, and I

1213
01:11:28,476 --> 01:11:34,876
Speaker 2: have no interest in power anymore. I'm really into like, yeah,

1214
01:11:34,916 --> 01:11:37,716
Speaker 2: what kind of exchange can we have? Like I want

1215
01:11:37,716 --> 01:11:42,316
Speaker 2: to Grammy this year and people ask me about it,

1216
01:11:43,116 --> 01:11:46,196
Speaker 2: and I had the deepest depression after it, you know.

1217
01:11:49,476 --> 01:11:51,956
Speaker 2: And then you know, I had to start just configuring

1218
01:11:51,996 --> 01:11:54,596
Speaker 2: in my journal, like come on, see the positive things

1219
01:11:54,596 --> 01:11:57,596
Speaker 2: of it, you know, And I realized the most positive

1220
01:11:57,636 --> 01:12:00,636
Speaker 2: thing for me, if you don't mind, was I went

1221
01:12:00,676 --> 01:12:04,716
Speaker 2: with Abe. And you know, when you win the Grammy,

1222
01:12:04,756 --> 01:12:06,596
Speaker 2: they usher you through the back like take a picture,

1223
01:12:06,756 --> 01:12:08,636
Speaker 2: do won't drop the Grammy down? You take another one,

1224
01:12:08,956 --> 01:12:11,356
Speaker 2: take another picture, go to the press, blah blah blah.

1225
01:12:11,436 --> 01:12:14,076
Speaker 2: And then the press thing, you know, something kind of

1226
01:12:14,076 --> 01:12:17,396
Speaker 2: messed up happened. Someone mistakes me. They were like, what's

1227
01:12:17,396 --> 01:12:20,676
Speaker 2: it like playing with David Bowie because I look like

1228
01:12:20,756 --> 01:12:23,436
Speaker 2: Gail and Dorsey or you know, just limited in their scope.

1229
01:12:23,436 --> 01:12:24,956
Speaker 2: But that then I was like, I let it. I

1230
01:12:25,036 --> 01:12:27,996
Speaker 2: just say pew, I said, let's talk about race. Actually

1231
01:12:28,996 --> 01:12:32,516
Speaker 2: to the reporter, shut down all interviews. And then that's

1232
01:12:32,516 --> 01:12:35,276
Speaker 2: when I realized, like, this is not my thing, you know,

1233
01:12:35,556 --> 01:12:37,796
Speaker 2: I want to I'm always going to focus on the music.

1234
01:12:37,916 --> 01:12:40,516
Speaker 2: But the other highlight was we're in the lounge with

1235
01:12:40,596 --> 01:12:45,316
Speaker 2: all the people who won, and this man comes over

1236
01:12:45,356 --> 01:12:48,316
Speaker 2: and just starts what I call talking at me. When

1237
01:12:48,356 --> 01:12:51,036
Speaker 2: you just talk at me, you don't want We're not talking,

1238
01:12:51,076 --> 01:12:53,836
Speaker 2: You're just at me. He's talking and talking, and I

1239
01:12:53,836 --> 01:12:59,396
Speaker 2: could feel Abe's energy change, like just Abes is like

1240
01:12:59,516 --> 01:13:02,996
Speaker 2: oh my god, the flower, but his whole energy change

1241
01:13:03,076 --> 01:13:06,236
Speaker 2: like you don't remember me? And I was like, what's

1242
01:13:06,316 --> 01:13:08,716
Speaker 2: happening to the guy? He said to the guy, you

1243
01:13:08,716 --> 01:13:11,596
Speaker 2: don't and I was like, whoa. So I just stepped

1244
01:13:11,596 --> 01:13:13,596
Speaker 2: back a little bit and he was like, you were

1245
01:13:13,636 --> 01:13:14,556
Speaker 2: my teacher.

1246
01:13:16,796 --> 01:13:18,716
Speaker 3: Teacher, my drum teacher at college.

1247
01:13:19,396 --> 01:13:19,676
Speaker 5: Wow.

1248
01:13:20,556 --> 01:13:23,516
Speaker 3: They did not recognize me at all.

1249
01:13:24,036 --> 01:13:28,076
Speaker 1: And wasn't nice to him, wasn't trying to recognize you, probably, but.

1250
01:13:27,996 --> 01:13:30,396
Speaker 2: It wasn't nice to him. What did he tell you

1251
01:13:30,436 --> 01:13:31,636
Speaker 2: when you were in class school?

1252
01:13:32,236 --> 01:13:37,636
Speaker 5: Yeah, he said that your right hand dominant, so you'll

1253
01:13:37,676 --> 01:13:39,836
Speaker 5: never ever get cold to play on a record.

1254
01:13:41,796 --> 01:13:45,156
Speaker 1: A teacher. Yeah. Yeah.

1255
01:13:46,556 --> 01:13:49,556
Speaker 2: So then that again another moment of like, this is

1256
01:13:49,596 --> 01:13:51,476
Speaker 2: why I'm here because this is hilarious.

1257
01:13:53,596 --> 01:13:55,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had a good Yeah, we were just like.

1258
01:13:55,676 --> 01:13:58,276
Speaker 2: But look, he's his right hand, it's killing.

1259
01:14:00,836 --> 01:14:01,596
Speaker 1: Real dominant.

1260
01:14:02,676 --> 01:14:03,716
Speaker 4: You actually get to say that.

1261
01:14:03,916 --> 01:14:06,036
Speaker 2: No, I just felt in my heart I wanted him.

1262
01:14:06,196 --> 01:14:08,356
Speaker 2: I could see these were two men and they need

1263
01:14:08,396 --> 01:14:12,676
Speaker 2: to have that interaction. And but that I was like,

1264
01:14:12,796 --> 01:14:14,876
Speaker 2: this is why I'm here, This is why I want.

1265
01:14:15,876 --> 01:14:19,396
Speaker 2: This moment is why I want, don't you know? It's

1266
01:14:19,436 --> 01:14:23,556
Speaker 2: my own like low self esteem that I deserve. It

1267
01:14:23,596 --> 01:14:25,516
Speaker 2: is it real? What's it mean? You know, you go

1268
01:14:25,596 --> 01:14:28,356
Speaker 2: through it and then you have a moment where it's like, ah,

1269
01:14:28,796 --> 01:14:32,156
Speaker 2: nothing to do with you, None of this has anything

1270
01:14:32,196 --> 01:14:38,316
Speaker 2: to do with you. You know, it's these moments that are important.

1271
01:14:38,996 --> 01:14:41,556
Speaker 2: It's it's it's the it's all the people that help

1272
01:14:41,636 --> 01:14:46,716
Speaker 2: make the record that will help hopefully have other experiences

1273
01:14:46,756 --> 01:14:49,996
Speaker 2: come from that record. Everyone has something they believe in.

1274
01:14:50,676 --> 01:14:54,276
Speaker 2: But if we're going to make this country, this experiment work,

1275
01:14:57,316 --> 01:15:02,076
Speaker 2: the best I can do is cause less less fire.

1276
01:15:03,116 --> 01:15:06,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, less fire. Thanks Michelle, and I appreciate you.

1277
01:15:06,556 --> 01:15:10,756
Speaker 2: I appreciate and I much success to you. It's such

1278
01:15:10,756 --> 01:15:11,716
Speaker 2: an honor to be here.

1279
01:15:11,916 --> 01:15:17,996
Speaker 1: This is an honored actual. Thanks so much Michelle and

1280
01:15:18,036 --> 01:15:20,236
Speaker 1: de gio Cello and a Browns for talking about their

1281
01:15:20,276 --> 01:15:23,476
Speaker 1: close collaboration together and their two new projects out on

1282
01:15:23,556 --> 01:15:26,476
Speaker 1: Blue Note Records. You can hear those albums and a

1283
01:15:26,476 --> 01:15:28,796
Speaker 1: playlist of some of our favorite tracks from Michelle and

1284
01:15:28,916 --> 01:15:31,916
Speaker 1: Abe on a playlist at broken Record podcast dot com

1285
01:15:32,036 --> 01:15:35,196
Speaker 1: or in our episode description. You can also watch this

1286
01:15:35,236 --> 01:15:38,196
Speaker 1: interview on other recent episodes at YouTube dot com slash

1287
01:15:38,236 --> 01:15:40,916
Speaker 1: broken Record podcast, and be sure to follow us on

1288
01:15:40,956 --> 01:15:44,236
Speaker 1: Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us

1289
01:15:44,276 --> 01:15:47,796
Speaker 1: on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and

1290
01:15:47,916 --> 01:15:50,956
Speaker 1: edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler

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Speaker 1: and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinay. Broken Record

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Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this

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Speaker 1: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

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Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

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Speaker 1: and athlete listening for four ninety nine a month. Look

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Speaker 1: for Pushing Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you

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Speaker 1: like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review

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Speaker 1: us on your podcast app. Our theme Music's back, any beats?

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond,