WEBVTT - Like a Gut Punch

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<v Speaker 1>But the rule of law exists in this country. It

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<v Speaker 1>came to this verdict, and you know at this point,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you to the jurors, thank you to this judge.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you to all the court security officers and the

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<v Speaker 1>witnesses and everybody who's they and their family members had

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<v Speaker 1>to walk into the belly of the beast to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>But this is the system working in a fair way.

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<v Speaker 2>The system working in a fair way. They were giddy

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<v Speaker 2>all afternoon and evening on MSNBC yesterday and just the

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<v Speaker 2>rule of law has been restored. No one is above

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<v Speaker 2>the law. Blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 3>To discuss the proceedings and reaction to them, please welcome

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<v Speaker 3>back to the Armstrong and Getty Show. Retired Superior Court

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<v Speaker 3>judge Larry Goodman, who retired a few years back after

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<v Speaker 3>thirty one years in the Superior Court handling mostly murder

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<v Speaker 3>trials in Alameda County in the Bay Area of California.

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<v Speaker 4>Mister judge, sir Larry, how are you.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm doing good? How are you guys this morning?

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<v Speaker 4>Good?

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<v Speaker 3>Initial question, you're a superior court judge. Now do you

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<v Speaker 3>start in the inferior court? Get promoted to the mediocre

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<v Speaker 3>court and end up in the superior court.

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<v Speaker 4>How does that work?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, actually, I got appointed initially to the municipal court

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<v Speaker 5>and I was there for two and a half years

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<v Speaker 5>and then elevated the Superior Court.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a superior tone.

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<v Speaker 4>Does that help?

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes?

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<v Speaker 5>That's why you can't fall back on yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>You know what?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly, baffle them with bullets, as they say. All right,

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<v Speaker 3>More seriously, Larry, what was your initial reaction to the

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<v Speaker 3>news of the verdict yesterday?

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<v Speaker 5>It was like a gut punch. I mean, it's it

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<v Speaker 5>was hard to take because I know what went on,

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<v Speaker 5>and I know how most of the people that I

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<v Speaker 5>worked with took their oath of office as a judge

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<v Speaker 5>to do the right thing, regardless of how you felt.

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<v Speaker 5>And this judge, obviously that oath didn't mean anything to him.

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<v Speaker 5>His rulings, his mannerisms, his uh, the instructions, the whole

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<v Speaker 5>thing was just such a farce that it actually made

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<v Speaker 5>me sad and made me angry.

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<v Speaker 3>So, without getting into the real legal weeds, what was

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<v Speaker 3>it about the instructions that bothered you?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, first of all, I don't know why you don't

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<v Speaker 5>give the instructions to the jurors so they can go

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<v Speaker 5>in and read them when you've got fifty five pages.

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<v Speaker 5>But also the idea that they didn't have to have

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<v Speaker 5>unanimous as to what the underlying one of the three

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<v Speaker 5>crimes were that was supposed to make this a felony,

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<v Speaker 5>the fact that they referred to Cone as an accomplice,

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<v Speaker 5>which implies that there must be a crime, All those

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<v Speaker 5>different kind of things that I guess he took the

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<v Speaker 5>standard instructions and did some creative writing to kind of

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<v Speaker 5>dri direct it towards the guilty verdict.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I've been a little cautious because I'm not an

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<v Speaker 3>attorney nor judge. But the idea that our system has

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<v Speaker 3>this sacred principle that you've got to be convicted by

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<v Speaker 3>jury or your peers beyond a reasonable doubt of a

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<v Speaker 3>specific offense that is laid out quite specifically by the government.

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<v Speaker 3>But you can take a felon I'm a misdemeanor and

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<v Speaker 3>mutate it into a felony based on I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>a crime, some crime, whatever crime doesn't matter, So you

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<v Speaker 3>can supercharge a specific charge with a vague reference to

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<v Speaker 3>some crime that may or may not exist.

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<v Speaker 4>That bothers me a lot.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, it should, particularly if you're the defendant. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>we talked about this last week or the week before that.

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<v Speaker 5>A real judge would have made the prosecution state, specifically

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<v Speaker 5>before the trial ever started, what are the underlying crimes

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<v Speaker 5>that you're going to prove to make this become a felony.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, he stated the opposite in the closing argument or

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<v Speaker 2>in his dury instructions. Right, you can have different three

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<v Speaker 2>of you could think this is the crime, three of

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<v Speaker 2>you could think this is the crime whatever.

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<v Speaker 5>It was a smortus board of possible crimes to get

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<v Speaker 5>to a felony. And then the idea that the defense

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<v Speaker 5>has to go first in closing arguments. They have no

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<v Speaker 5>chance to rebut what the prosecution says when they finally

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<v Speaker 5>did start laying out with the potential underlying crimes might which.

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<v Speaker 2>Is which is why some of my favorite legal pundits

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<v Speaker 2>say it's obviously a due process problem because you can't

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<v Speaker 2>you can't rebut what you're being charged with because you

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<v Speaker 2>don't even.

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<v Speaker 5>Know exactly exactly. I mean, that's the key to the

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<v Speaker 5>Bill of Rights and the right to do processes. You

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<v Speaker 5>have to be able to know what you're charged with

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<v Speaker 5>so you can mount a defense.

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<v Speaker 3>All right, So just let's bottom line this. So I

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<v Speaker 3>were to say to you, hey, Larry, I think this

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<v Speaker 3>is a fine judge, and this verdict it will stand

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<v Speaker 3>up on appeal. I'll bet you a fifty thousand bucks.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm right, What do you say?

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<v Speaker 5>I'll take the bet. Really, No, it's going to get

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<v Speaker 5>reversed unless unless this corruption goes all the way through

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<v Speaker 5>the appellate level of the New York courts, which I

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<v Speaker 5>don't think it does. There's just so many things he

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<v Speaker 5>did wrong. From the question should have been a change

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<v Speaker 5>of venue. He definitely should have recused himself, the instructions

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<v Speaker 5>the way they were given, the rulings that he made,

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<v Speaker 5>not letting the guy testify that was the FEC expert.

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<v Speaker 5>And even though he couldn't testify, one of the underlying

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<v Speaker 5>crimes was a violation of the federal election laws, and

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<v Speaker 5>they I bet the jury didn't know what the federal

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<v Speaker 5>election law was that he supposedly violated. So, I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>there's just tons of things that are going to be

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<v Speaker 5>to be reversed.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, then you've made a perfect argument to set this up.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is where I've been confused since yesterday afternoon,

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<v Speaker 2>when I would hear legal experts say, very unlikely Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump will do any jail time, Very unlikely. Blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 2>Guy with this guy with that. Okay, this is the

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<v Speaker 2>same judge you just described that's gonna make the decision.

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<v Speaker 2>Doesn't that mean there's a chance that he's going to

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<v Speaker 2>decide that this guy that has bad mouthed me and

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<v Speaker 2>my family and I've had to hit him with a

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<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of warnings and fines and has shown no

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<v Speaker 2>contrition whatsoever. Screw this rich guy who thinks he can

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<v Speaker 2>do whatever. I'm gonna throw him in jail.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, you know, I never underestimate what this judge will do.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, I don't think he will do that. I

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<v Speaker 5>think there would be such a total outcry. I think

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<v Speaker 5>there would in the public. I think there would be

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<v Speaker 5>avenues where they could the defense could probably stop him

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<v Speaker 5>from the actually putting him in jail. But this is

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<v Speaker 5>the same judge that presided over the Trump Organization case.

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<v Speaker 5>He presided over Trump's financial guy for one of his corporations.

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<v Speaker 5>He's got the Steve Banyer case. He's making a career

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<v Speaker 5>out of Donald Trump.

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<v Speaker 3>So so we're talking to Larry Goodman, retired Superior Court

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<v Speaker 3>judge about the Trump trial and verdict. Obviously, so, Larry,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sure you've seen as a judge for several decades

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<v Speaker 3>bad attorneys, good attorneys, great attorneys. Our theory around here

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<v Speaker 3>was that the Trump defense was more a political defense

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<v Speaker 3>than a we're going to win this trial no matter

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<v Speaker 3>what it takes defense. What did you take away from

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<v Speaker 3>the Trump defense team's performance.

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<v Speaker 5>I've never been real impressed with the defense lawyers that

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<v Speaker 5>he's had, and I'm not sure why. It's just they

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<v Speaker 5>seem to kind of plod through things. They don't come

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<v Speaker 5>up with any like really creative defenses or any cohesive defenses.

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<v Speaker 5>They kind of respond rather than attack, and so I

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<v Speaker 5>think it was political. I think they set it up.

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<v Speaker 5>I think they kind of saw the writing on the

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<v Speaker 5>wall and they kind of mounted the defense so he

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<v Speaker 5>could end up being the martyr before Berdy came back.

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<v Speaker 2>Which might be smart. I mean, based on a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the reaction we've seen today, it might have been

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<v Speaker 2>the smartest move. I heard somebody point out what they

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<v Speaker 2>would have liked best was an acquittal, but they decided

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<v Speaker 2>that was very, very unlikely. So what they would like

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<v Speaker 2>second best is a guilty verdict. Yeah, for the martyr

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<v Speaker 2>reasons you just said, Well.

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<v Speaker 5>He makes the martyr won't be reversed on appeal before

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<v Speaker 5>the election. So you got to get what you can

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<v Speaker 5>get and build use it to your advantage, which is

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<v Speaker 5>look what they did to me. I'm a political like

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<v Speaker 5>you said yesterday, I'm a political prisoner.

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<v Speaker 4>Oof.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a little strong.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, mine, Well he raised about the GDP of France

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<v Speaker 3>in three hours. Larry, I'm gonna put you on the spot.

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<v Speaker 3>Creativity wise, I think anybody with a conscience and reasonable

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<v Speaker 3>intelligence understands why this sort of law fair where you

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<v Speaker 3>have a local prosecutor attempting to bring down a national candidate,

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<v Speaker 3>is so dangerous. How easy would it be if the Republicans,

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<v Speaker 3>for instance, said, Okay, this is the way you want

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<v Speaker 3>to fight, We're gonna we're gonna get to work on

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<v Speaker 3>cooking up some more of this sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 4>How easy would it be for, say, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>What's a good conservative city an Omaha prosecutor to cook

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<v Speaker 3>up something. If I don't know, maybe Joe Biden gave

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<v Speaker 3>speeches in Omaha through the years and got paid for

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<v Speaker 3>him or whatever. How hard would that be to get

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<v Speaker 3>this really cranking.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, the genies out of the bottle, and you can't

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<v Speaker 5>put the genie back in the bottle, So it'd be

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<v Speaker 5>pretty easy. What about the Attorney General of Arizona suing

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<v Speaker 5>majorcas or charging him with a violation of the borders

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<v Speaker 5>of their state, or adding to crime or some conspiracy

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<v Speaker 5>to allow drug dealing to go on in Arizona. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>you can come up with all kinds of things. And

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<v Speaker 5>the thing that's kind of interesting, Republicans don't seem to

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<v Speaker 5>play dirty like that a lot, and they play they

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<v Speaker 5>play hardball. Republicans play softball sometimes. But it's certainly easy

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<v Speaker 5>to do.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, and especially if you remember, as I'm just remembering,

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<v Speaker 3>you don't need to get a conviction necessarily, right, You

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<v Speaker 3>just want to drag him through the mud, make them

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<v Speaker 3>spend money and time exactly.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean, it's that's all they did. I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>they got the conviction, but even if they'd been a

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<v Speaker 5>not guilty verdict, they succeeded in making him the story

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<v Speaker 5>and making him look bad for what six weeks was it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the question really of this whole thing, is

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<v Speaker 2>is this an outlier blip or is the Genie out

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<v Speaker 2>of the bottle, and this is where we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>go from here on out. That's that's the question of

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<v Speaker 2>this whole thing to me.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, I don't know how do you end go? No,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm just I don't know how you would undo. Once

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<v Speaker 5>it happens, it's the path has been started, So I

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<v Speaker 5>don't know how you bring it back.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, only if there's a recognition among conservatives and moderates

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<v Speaker 3>that this is a terrible path. This is an incredibly

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<v Speaker 3>dangerous Pandora's box. We've opened here and we need to

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<v Speaker 3>shut it but fast. Although I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 3>heard the freedom loving quote of the day this morning

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<v Speaker 3>at the very beginning of the show. It was from

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<v Speaker 3>a Greek historian who's talking about precedence and how no

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<v Speaker 3>matter how narrow the path upon which they enter, they

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<v Speaker 3>create for themselves a highway where they wander with the

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<v Speaker 3>utmost latitude, and no one thinks the course is evil

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<v Speaker 3>for himself, which has proven profitable to others. Wow, okay, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>how appropriate is that? Man?

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<v Speaker 4>Human nature does not change.

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<v Speaker 5>Nope, And like I said, once they do it, and

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<v Speaker 5>if they're successful, they'll do it again.

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<v Speaker 3>Retired Superior Court judge Larry Goodman, Larry, we always appreciate

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<v Speaker 3>the time and the insights.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks a million.

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<v Speaker 5>Hey, thank you guys. Take care we well.

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<v Speaker 2>And since this was a you know, this was a

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<v Speaker 2>local New York guy in New York, it wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>to be for instance, if you just if Gavin Newsom

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<v Speaker 2>is the nominee, it doesn't have to be a red

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<v Speaker 2>state that goes after gavinet. It could be a red

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<v Speaker 2>county in calib blue blue California, because there are our

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<v Speaker 2>red counties and red towns. And you get that person

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<v Speaker 2>to sue Gavin Newsom because the homeless problem you've allowed

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<v Speaker 2>has cost us this much money, you know, that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of thing, and you tie them up in court.

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<v Speaker 3>And yeah, there were some ren counties during the utterly

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<v Speaker 3>unconstantutional and I mean, by the specific wording of the

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<v Speaker 3>California Constitution, the unconstitutional shutting down of the economy during COVID.

0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.040
<v Speaker 3>They're closing the schools. But the red counties really just

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<v Speaker 3>kind of said, hey, we're coming at you unless you

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<v Speaker 3>you soften up and do the right thing, as opposed

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<v Speaker 3>to actually dragging them into court and making it happen.

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<v Speaker 3>But yeah, the Pandora's box is open now we.

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<v Speaker 2>We and it's it's interesting to me that, at least

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<v Speaker 2>on the left leaning channels, I didn't see one person

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<v Speaker 2>bring up, you know, a possible downside to this, not one.

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<v Speaker 3>That is striking and at the risk of sounding hyper partisan,

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<v Speaker 3>I am more than willing to take on their arguments

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<v Speaker 3>and beat them in this discussion one hundred percent. That's

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<v Speaker 3>our job. I mean, that's your job as a voter

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<v Speaker 3>and as an American. They don't even they pretend as

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<v Speaker 3>though the counter arguments don't even exist, as you've just indicated,

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<v Speaker 3>which is well, let's a measure of something.

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<v Speaker 4>You can call it what you want.

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<v Speaker 2>Joe Biden made a big decision on Ukraine yesterday that

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<v Speaker 2>may have happened the day of the verdict so that

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't make the news. Really I'm not sure. Seems

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<v Speaker 2>like a heck of a coincidence. Anyway. Other stuff to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about too, and more on the Trump trial, all

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<v Speaker 2>on the way Armstrong and Getty