Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're discussing fractured fire, early retirement, not so
Speaker 1: hot right now. That's right, It is not so hot
Speaker 1: right now. But yeah, we are talking about fire, financial independence,
Speaker 1: retire early in the fire movement. Not so hot, but
Speaker 1: the weather outside most the heat wave fire. That is
Speaker 1: definitely something that is going on right now. So I mean,
Speaker 1: we are continuing our conversation about fire. We talked with
Speaker 1: Sam the financial Samurai earlier this week, and this is
Speaker 1: something we like to coincide with Independence Day that having
Speaker 1: been Monday, and we're going to continue the conversation a
Speaker 1: little bit more on this Wednesday episode. We're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about fire in the midst of the market today and
Speaker 1: how it is that folks are experiencing it, as well
Speaker 1: as just some some thoughts that we have in particular
Speaker 1: about the r E part of fire, the retire earlier part.
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk a lot about work today. I'm looking
Speaker 1: forward to that discussion, buddy. That's right. So it's and
Speaker 1: part of it is like the current economic situation, how
Speaker 1: does that impact the movement as a whole. We're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about that. We're also gonna talk about maybe the
Speaker 1: things that we like the most about fire. So it's
Speaker 1: not all going to be like hating. There's gonna be yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna hate. Hopefully a balanced perspective here. Absolutely. Hey,
Speaker 1: real quick though, I cannot remember if we mentioned this
Speaker 1: on the show, but I had listed a sofa that
Speaker 1: we had. This is, by the way, This is a
Speaker 1: sofa we've that we had for close to ten years,
Speaker 1: and we are selling it. I mean we sold it,
Speaker 1: I will say, because we already got the money for it.
Speaker 1: We sold it for almost what we paid for it.
Speaker 1: That's inflation right there. But I just know that, like
Speaker 1: it's crazy. First of all, it makes the new alternative
Speaker 1: is twice as one. Exactly, it makes me want to
Speaker 1: continue to buy like quality goods. It was interesting, is
Speaker 1: this is the first more expensive piece of furniture that
Speaker 1: Kate and I ever purchased. And even the time, we're like,
Speaker 1: we looked at each other before we click purchase, because
Speaker 1: even back then it was an online purchase and we said,
Speaker 1: are we really about to spend this much money on
Speaker 1: a sofa? But we knew lose quality was made of leather.
Speaker 1: It was solid. Uh and sure enough, man, the value
Speaker 1: of that thing is held up. We are certainly happy
Speaker 1: about that. But what I wanted to talk to you
Speaker 1: about is the fact that I listed this sofa. I
Speaker 1: listed it on Facebook marketplace, and a lady bought it.
Speaker 1: She sent me money via zel, so the money was
Speaker 1: sitting there in my account, and I asked her, Hey,
Speaker 1: all right, let let me know when you are able
Speaker 1: to come by and pick it up. And she's like,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm, you know, scheduling some stuff with the movers.
Speaker 1: I'll let you know. It's been weeks since, uh, we
Speaker 1: have had that interaction, and I've reached out to her
Speaker 1: and we still have the sofa. Honestly, I'm getting kind
Speaker 1: of tired of it. I'm I'm tired of this thing
Speaker 1: sitting around. Uh. It does not have a place in
Speaker 1: the new house. But what say you, Joel, Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's a good question. You've already had to move
Speaker 1: this couch when you were hoping they would come before
Speaker 1: you left, exactly before you moved. So luckily no swent
Speaker 1: off my back. We the movers and they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: no problem. Yeah, they threw it in there. Um. I
Speaker 1: was hoping actually that they would come right before we moved,
Speaker 1: and so it was like literally one of the last
Speaker 1: things they put it on the on the actual truck. Okay,
Speaker 1: well yeah, the tough thing is like there's nowhere inside
Speaker 1: the house for it, so leaving it on the covered
Speaker 1: porch and like letting them know, hey, this is no
Speaker 1: longer in a climate controlled space and uh and really
Speaker 1: it's up to you to pick it up start making
Speaker 1: it look less attractive for them to leave it with
Speaker 1: me longer. But I would also I would give them
Speaker 1: a deadline. I'd say, like, listen, there's there's a week
Speaker 1: before So if I do that, that's a tough thing.
Speaker 1: You can't refund them all their money. Well, I don't
Speaker 1: want to, That's the thing. I don't want to go
Speaker 1: through the pain of having to relist it because it's
Speaker 1: it's just a pain. But would you feel comfortable reselling it,
Speaker 1: selling it to somebody else, because that starts to feel
Speaker 1: a little dishonest, right, I mean, only if you're going
Speaker 1: to refund their money. If you sold it, chances are
Speaker 1: you might not get the same price. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: all sorts of weirds in there. So I also feel
Speaker 1: terrible about sticking like putting it out on the curb
Speaker 1: at that point too, right, Because if I give them
Speaker 1: a hard deadline and say, all right, like literally after this,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna put it out on the curb, I think
Speaker 1: that's the like, the most honest way of going about things.
Speaker 1: Because so too, I don't feel like that's a really
Speaker 1: crappy thing to have a couch that you pay a
Speaker 1: lot of money for putt on the curb exactly. It's
Speaker 1: also really crappy to leave someone hanging for weeks and
Speaker 1: weeks and weeks when you've bought something but you're not
Speaker 1: coming to pick it at track together. And plus you
Speaker 1: stick it on the curb. You know somebody's gonna see
Speaker 1: that and think, uh, what are you doing? Like is
Speaker 1: this for a photo shoot or something? Are you taking
Speaker 1: photographs of this sofa and front? Someone's going to grab
Speaker 1: it really quickly and they'll be outsolute. A lot of
Speaker 1: money with no couch, you're gonna yeah, ye, So, but
Speaker 1: maybe make my green slide curb alert, like put that
Speaker 1: thing to shame, but maybe that lights to fire under
Speaker 1: them the exact fire that's needed to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we gotta figure this out. We can no longer just
Speaker 1: kind of like twiddle our thumbs and hope that at
Speaker 1: some point something lands into our lap so we can
Speaker 1: pick it up easily. I gave a soft deadline previously,
Speaker 1: but I think maybe the next step is to be like, look,
Speaker 1: if you don't get it by x dates, I am
Speaker 1: going to be forced to put it out on the
Speaker 1: curb because literally we want to spend about a month now,
Speaker 1: and and that's that's just a lot of time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I think you you are with well within your
Speaker 1: at this point, Thank you very much. Curious if you're
Speaker 1: gonna be like, sell it again, you're gonna make twice
Speaker 1: as much money, that would be That would be terrible,
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, the the only alternative is if
Speaker 1: you sold it but then you refunded their money if
Speaker 1: it's sold for let's say a different price, or if
Speaker 1: you sold it for less and maybe there was a discrepancy,
Speaker 1: like you you send them the smaller amount of I
Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, like that seems kind of weird.
Speaker 1: Would feel I would feel decent about that and be like, hey, sorry,
Speaker 1: like someone else bought it, but they bought it for
Speaker 1: a hundred bucks less, so I'm sending you back what
Speaker 1: you sent me minus a hundred. I mean, there's no
Speaker 1: real great scenario here, it's all. It's also weird because
Speaker 1: she never came and saw the thing, and then weird like,
Speaker 1: would you drop multiple thousands of dollars? Uh, it's not
Speaker 1: like three it's basically for this thing. Would you spend
Speaker 1: that much money on a sofa that you've never even
Speaker 1: laid eyes on? Highly unlikely. The fact that she I
Speaker 1: mean like from article or something, if it was brand new, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: but not used. Yeah. I was kind of dumbfounded by
Speaker 1: the fact that she just went ahead and sent over
Speaker 1: the money, and I'm like, wait a minute, is this
Speaker 1: some sort of really fancy scam. But I mean, it's
Speaker 1: difficult as far as I know, I haven't heard any
Speaker 1: zel scams as far as like false deposits being made
Speaker 1: or anything like that. It's not like a forged check
Speaker 1: where the funds are going to come back as insufficient,
Speaker 1: you know, a week from now, and you've already sent
Speaker 1: a real check. To the point to this game, everybody
Speaker 1: might have been making in your yeah a long time.
Speaker 1: It's very seasons. All right, Well, um, good luck with
Speaker 1: that one. That sounds like a little bit of a
Speaker 1: money ethical um that we're annoying conundrum, a weird little dilemma. Yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: let's move on, Matt. Let's get to the beer mentioned.
Speaker 1: The beer we're having on this episode. This one is
Speaker 1: called just a Kiss by the Brewery. And when I
Speaker 1: when I say the brewery, I always think of like
Speaker 1: the Ohio State University UM and because that's just kind
Speaker 1: of an interesting name, the brewery, but it's spelled different,
Speaker 1: you know, be r u e r y and and
Speaker 1: this this in a more European way, right, this this
Speaker 1: the brewery has been making awesome beers for a ton
Speaker 1: of years now. So yeah, we'll give our thoughts on
Speaker 1: this saison at the end of the episode, but for now,
Speaker 1: let's get onto the subject at hand. We are talking
Speaker 1: about the Fire movement and how it's being fractured right now.
Speaker 1: And Matt made me think that, you know, some things
Speaker 1: sound really good until in reality they aren't. Right, my
Speaker 1: kids like naming your brewery and the brewery right, you're like, wait, now,
Speaker 1: that's just confusing. But my kids, they often tell me
Speaker 1: about how they plan to make decisions when they become
Speaker 1: adults that are very different than the ones that that
Speaker 1: we're making them, my wife and I are making. It's
Speaker 1: not surprising. But of course, all the free money they
Speaker 1: have on hand, they're gonna spend it at the candy store.
Speaker 1: That's how on their list. They're going to eat ice
Speaker 1: cream every night. Right, They're gonna do things a little
Speaker 1: differently once they rule the roost. And I don't know
Speaker 1: about you, Matt, I thought that way when I was
Speaker 1: young too. I think most kids do, right, Um. I
Speaker 1: still one of my favorite scenes in all of movie
Speaker 1: history is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when they
Speaker 1: enter the candy room, and like, I just imagining myself
Speaker 1: in that is like, um, it's something I've done for
Speaker 1: a lot of years, right, Like, oh wow, how would
Speaker 1: you spend thirty minutes? There? You go? Hey wire? But um,
Speaker 1: would you kind of float down the chocolate river? Would you? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Like that sounds kind of fun? Which one would you be?
Speaker 1: All the above? Maybe not Charlie, but yeah, Like, as
Speaker 1: you grow older, you start to realize that some of
Speaker 1: those things when you were a kid that you thought
Speaker 1: were great, well, there's other constraints maybe that prevent you
Speaker 1: from living that life, Like, um, maybe it wasn't just
Speaker 1: the rules that your parents had. There were other good reasons.
Speaker 1: Now you don't want to rock your teeth out, you
Speaker 1: don't want to gain a ton of weight, or you
Speaker 1: don't want to eat like crap and feel awful of
Speaker 1: adult onset diabetes, exactly, there are other reasons to avoid uh,
Speaker 1: eating as much candy as you can. And so what
Speaker 1: sounded really good to eight year old me, it's not
Speaker 1: necessarily as appetizing to thirty eight year old me, and
Speaker 1: I hope the same is true for my kids. But
Speaker 1: I think there's something similar happening when it comes to
Speaker 1: the Fire movement right now, Right, this idea that sounds
Speaker 1: compelling to become financially independent and to retire early when
Speaker 1: the market is screaming higher year after year, Well it
Speaker 1: doesn't feel the same when we're experiencing a major correction
Speaker 1: and inflation soaring at the same time. Like I think
Speaker 1: the Fire movement is grappling with maybe kind of a
Speaker 1: new economic reality. Yeah, yeah, So it shouldn't come as
Speaker 1: a surprise, right that we're talking about this today during
Speaker 1: our how to Money Financial Independence Week. But the market
Speaker 1: has basically been in the red all year long, A
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, the SMP officially entered into bear
Speaker 1: market territory. And if you're someone who is counting on
Speaker 1: the returns from the market to provide you with income,
Speaker 1: you're probably sweating bullets these days. You're you know, you're
Speaker 1: watching your portfolio balance with her like a like a
Speaker 1: scorched yard in July. And I'm guessing you're a bit
Speaker 1: more tense these days. Uh. And since you retired early,
Speaker 1: you might even be busting out the old rolodex. You
Speaker 1: might be reaching out to old co workers, old bosses
Speaker 1: in an effort maybe to secure a spot with your
Speaker 1: old employer. As your portfolio is taking a nose dive,
Speaker 1: you're trying to remember, how did I how did I
Speaker 1: go out? How did I quit? That I burned some
Speaker 1: bridges on the way out? That did I throw up
Speaker 1: a couple of middle fingers? Is there a way that
Speaker 1: I could perhaps come on as a contractor hopefully I
Speaker 1: was courteous when I did that. Yeah, but you know,
Speaker 1: the idea of fire it still sounds great, But the
Speaker 1: re pity of when or or how you get there,
Speaker 1: it sure seems a little more precarious in the present moment.
Speaker 1: That's what we want to talk about today. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean the fire movement. It was certainly looking easier, right.
Speaker 1: It seemed like the playbook was pretty simple when and
Speaker 1: it literally was easier. Yeah, Like like when we are
Speaker 1: seeing close to returns, you know, multiple years, Uh, you're
Speaker 1: probably feeling pretty good about your prospects of uh being
Speaker 1: able to achieve the four percent rule within your early
Speaker 1: retirement's right, Yeah, by the time within ten years or
Speaker 1: something like that. If the market's going up at that
Speaker 1: sort of pace during the you know, longest bull market
Speaker 1: in US history, it seems a little more achievable. And
Speaker 1: I don't think it's coincidental that the movement gained a
Speaker 1: lot of traction and additional adherence in the last five
Speaker 1: or seven years, right, Um. And that's not to say
Speaker 1: that there weren't other people living the quote unquote fire
Speaker 1: lifestyle under a different moniker right before that that term
Speaker 1: got popularized. Some people definitely were. They were saving huge
Speaker 1: chunks of their income. They were proponents of investing a
Speaker 1: lot of what they were saving. But the reality is
Speaker 1: had a booming stock market made it kind of feel
Speaker 1: like fire was reasonably easy to achieve, and it drew
Speaker 1: more interest but market volatility was. Although there are people
Speaker 1: in the space certainly talking about the reality of market volatility,
Speaker 1: a lot of folks in the fire movement hadn't yet
Speaker 1: experienced it firsthand, and there's just there's just nothing like
Speaker 1: real life experience to mold and shape our views. And
Speaker 1: when you actually endure a downturn, when the economic reality
Speaker 1: that you've been accustomed to gets upset, the apple car
Speaker 1: gets turned over, it's going to impact maybe how you
Speaker 1: view the movement as as a whole exactly. Andy didn't
Speaker 1: count because that wasn't I mean, we did drop over,
Speaker 1: and so it was a bear market at that point.
Speaker 1: It is more than that, actually, but that was you know,
Speaker 1: it was a medically induced coma that was an artificial
Speaker 1: little blip, and so we hadn't It was short lived, really, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was like like barely a month, and we had
Speaker 1: all those things on our mind at that point in time,
Speaker 1: whereas right now not not so much exactly. And so
Speaker 1: it's been close to fifteen years now since the true
Speaker 1: bear market, and so a down arct, this this drunken
Speaker 1: net worth maybe that you might be experiencing. This is
Speaker 1: a tough thing to stomach, especially after you just hit
Speaker 1: your your fire number and you quit your job. But
Speaker 1: it's not just that. At the same time, prices are
Speaker 1: going bonkers. We're seeing inflation at the highest it's been
Speaker 1: in over forty years. And so, yeah, folks maybe who
Speaker 1: retired early to do a bunch of traveling, especially if
Speaker 1: you happen to jump on that that van life bandwagon
Speaker 1: where you're having to pay for fuel. You're not seeing
Speaker 1: your money go quite as far as as you used
Speaker 1: to have. Those projections aren't looking nearly as safe, and
Speaker 1: you're spending money, you know, hand over fist when you thought,
Speaker 1: this is my guest for what I'm gonna spend in
Speaker 1: a month, and it's likely exceeding that by a decent
Speaker 1: choking exactly. So basically, your income has gone down, your
Speaker 1: expenses have gone up. It's a double whammy. So the
Speaker 1: early retiree is going to have to make some tough decisions.
Speaker 1: They're gonna have to likely rain in there they're spending
Speaker 1: for the time being. Uh, And so early retirement might
Speaker 1: have to look different than previously planned. When inflation is
Speaker 1: nearing ten percent. Uh, it's some folks are pushing off
Speaker 1: their fire date or they're they're going back to work
Speaker 1: to ensure that they won't run out of money. There
Speaker 1: are a confluence of factors that are causing folks to
Speaker 1: rethink everything that's right. Yeah, And I think the thing
Speaker 1: about financial freedom is that it needs to be simultaneously
Speaker 1: an offensive and a defensive move. Right. It's it's kind
Speaker 1: of an offensive strategy in the sense that you are
Speaker 1: saving and investing more in order to take control over
Speaker 1: your own financial future. You're you're basically investing in a
Speaker 1: way that just exceeds your peers on almost every level,
Speaker 1: in an effort to have more control over how you
Speaker 1: spend basically every minute going into the future. Uh. In
Speaker 1: that post work retire early lifestyle fire devotees, they work
Speaker 1: to have an investment portfolio that is twenty times or
Speaker 1: annual expenditures. But what happens if you reach that point
Speaker 1: and then a bear market proceeds to tear that plan
Speaker 1: apart quickly, bringing you down to something like maybe eighteen
Speaker 1: times your annual expenditures. Uh. And that's not what you
Speaker 1: plan for. That's that's where the necessity for a strong
Speaker 1: defense comes in, because you can't know in advance when
Speaker 1: a market correction is coming. We all know that. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Robert Kiosaki has been predicting them every single
Speaker 1: year for a decade and he's been wrong until now
Speaker 1: he's like, finally, even even a broken clock is right.
Speaker 1: What twice a night might see? Guys, I told you.
Speaker 1: But yeah, to be able to fire without stressing, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's just crucial to find a way to pad
Speaker 1: your portfolio for times like this, as well as allocating
Speaker 1: your investments in a way that's not going to derail
Speaker 1: those plans. And so it's offensive, it's defensive, but I
Speaker 1: think some of the fire proponents they really got the
Speaker 1: offensive part of the fire movement down, but maybe maybe
Speaker 1: when it came to some of those those defensive moves
Speaker 1: they were lacking. And we all know Matt defense wins championships, right.
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of a swinger's reference. You're talking about,
Speaker 1: like the bear ripping up the plan, and I wish
Speaker 1: I would have come up with, you know, the Vince
Speaker 1: von scene when he's talking about the bunny and how
Speaker 1: I don't think I ever saw that movie, dude, everyone,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's one of those classics, but
Speaker 1: it's definitely a class sick I need to rewatch that.
Speaker 1: So anytime we talk about bear markets moving forward, I
Speaker 1: can bust out that quote. Um, but I mean, generally speaking,
Speaker 1: like financial independence, it takes a long time to reach
Speaker 1: for the average person. You know, like we're talking a
Speaker 1: decade for some folks. You know, some folks can do
Speaker 1: it within a shorter number of years, but oftentimes it's
Speaker 1: gonna take a good bit longer. And while we are
Speaker 1: all about the pursuit of financial independence on shorter on
Speaker 1: a truncated timeline, the Fire movement can be a bit
Speaker 1: extreme for our tastes, and in an environment like the
Speaker 1: current one, at least a percentage of Fire adherents are
Speaker 1: having to reconsider the current plans or their timeline. And
Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about better ways to think
Speaker 1: about financial independence. We're gonna talk about quitting a job
Speaker 1: that you don't like, in addition to praising the Fire
Speaker 1: movement for what it does get right. And we will
Speaker 1: get to all of that right after this break. Okay,
Speaker 1: we are back from the break and just kind of
Speaker 1: kind of set the stage. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people maybe who are prominent in the Fire movement, especially
Speaker 1: people who still make money talking about the Fire movement.
Speaker 1: Those folks are probably in an O case scenario because
Speaker 1: they haven't actually bailed from work that provides income altogether.
Speaker 1: But some of the folks who are on the other
Speaker 1: side of the or because they had enough of that
Speaker 1: padding that you talked about before break exactly like you've
Speaker 1: got the and they and they still live incredibly frugally
Speaker 1: and they have way more money than they'll ever need
Speaker 1: even in a bear market. Yeah, like that padding is
Speaker 1: like you you know, you're you're talking about offense and defense.
Speaker 1: I feel like offenses investing in earning more defense is
Speaker 1: cutting your expenses, right, because you're trying to cut the
Speaker 1: defensive move to But like maybe it's the special teams.
Speaker 1: Is that like the padding there in the middle, Like
Speaker 1: it's all those small little things in the in between
Speaker 1: in between you scoring points and in between you keeping
Speaker 1: your opponent from scoring points on you. I think there
Speaker 1: are ways to be solidly financially independent and not have
Speaker 1: a job that's earning money. But it means that you've
Speaker 1: you've got some good padding in your life, some significant
Speaker 1: investments in savings. It means that you've got padding, But
Speaker 1: it also means in all likelihood that you, Yeah, if
Speaker 1: you've quit your job. That's something that we should talk
Speaker 1: about now, because you and I were not necessarily in
Speaker 1: favor of the r E part of fire Right. It's
Speaker 1: not it's not our favorite, and that is kind of
Speaker 1: one of those things, like it kind of comes along
Speaker 1: with the financial independence package when you're talking about this movement,
Speaker 1: and I think in this movement overall, there's just been
Speaker 1: too much of an emphasis when it comes to ditching work,
Speaker 1: and I think that that narrative is shifting at least
Speaker 1: a little bit. But you know, the concept of working
Speaker 1: sixty hours a week at a job you don't like
Speaker 1: for a decade knows to the grindstone or maybe even longer,
Speaker 1: in order to never have to work again. That still exists.
Speaker 1: There's still people in the movement that kind of think
Speaker 1: about it like that as a way to maybe hate
Speaker 1: your life for a decade so that you can enjoy
Speaker 1: the rest of it. I just think it's a horrible
Speaker 1: way to live, especially you know, some of those prime
Speaker 1: years where you can be having you know, fun and
Speaker 1: using your income to you know, do things that you joy. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're gonna give maybe some alternatives to the idea. The
Speaker 1: concept of early retirement and how you should use your
Speaker 1: growing nest egg to help you reframe and reconsider how
Speaker 1: you work, when you work, and what kind of work
Speaker 1: it is that you choose to do. Yeah, it's true,
Speaker 1: right that not everybody within the fire community thinks that
Speaker 1: work is bad. It's a good thing. But there's an
Speaker 1: often like subtle and sometimes not so subtle insinuation that
Speaker 1: you've gotta you know, get off that hamster wheel, and
Speaker 1: that your day job is preventing you from living the
Speaker 1: life that you want. If only you had a million
Speaker 1: dollars in the bank, you know, you could, you could
Speaker 1: ditch it all together. You could be free. But we
Speaker 1: think that the work that you do right, that it
Speaker 1: is adding value to the lives of other people while
Speaker 1: simultaneously rewarding you with money. So you're providing value in
Speaker 1: your you know, through your actions, and you're receiving financial
Speaker 1: or monetary value in return and pursuing financial independence so
Speaker 1: that you can opt to partake and work that is
Speaker 1: more enjoyable and maybe a little bit more meaningful to
Speaker 1: you that makes sense to us, or even having you know,
Speaker 1: just more savings and investments so that you can opt
Speaker 1: to work less but quitting altogether at an early age.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's a misplaced goal because we want
Speaker 1: you to be focused on something else. It's not necessarily
Speaker 1: about trying to leave the rat race, trying to leave
Speaker 1: the job that you have currently as fast as possible.
Speaker 1: I think so much of it comes down to what
Speaker 1: it is that you are seeking after. You want to
Speaker 1: have a goal. Yeah. I think often times in the
Speaker 1: fire movement, that is the misplaced goal. It is like, uh,
Speaker 1: an intense dislike of work. The fire number is sort
Speaker 1: of that misplace and it's like, that's how I get
Speaker 1: out of the thing that I hate, when instead we
Speaker 1: would say it's even worth making less money, right, or
Speaker 1: in order to enjoy what you do more, prolonging your
Speaker 1: ability to achieve that elusive fire number. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times the the end result might be
Speaker 1: the same, but it's just what it is that you
Speaker 1: focus on, right. It's it's the negative, you know, like
Speaker 1: you cut something out of a sheet of paper. Uh,
Speaker 1: You've got like the positive and the negative. Uh. It's
Speaker 1: oftentimes folks who are focusing on the negative, like that's
Speaker 1: what we want you to avoid doing, and we want
Speaker 1: you to instead focus on the positive parts. Uh, And
Speaker 1: in the end, we still think that you're gonna potentially
Speaker 1: end up at the same point. You might end up
Speaker 1: at the same point financially, but what your life looks
Speaker 1: like within during the interim, what your life looks like
Speaker 1: in the meantime, I think that could vary wildly, as
Speaker 1: well as your ability to just stay happy while you
Speaker 1: are retired, even if it is early. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: mentioned going part time just a second ago, you know,
Speaker 1: and I think that's actually a really good thing to
Speaker 1: to hone in on for a second, because going part time,
Speaker 1: I think it's a great way to think about financial independence, right,
Speaker 1: especially for folks who do feel overworked, who have been
Speaker 1: working fifty sixty weeks. Being able to work twenty hours
Speaker 1: a week instead of that, that seems like a much
Speaker 1: better scenario for so many people. And that is going
Speaker 1: to get people the way there, right, And the thing
Speaker 1: is you don't get there overnight. That's of course true,
Speaker 1: But it's easier to accomplish that than amassing a war
Speaker 1: chest that allows you to retire and then never have
Speaker 1: to earn another dollar for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: You're still getting some sort of income and some sort
Speaker 1: of fulfillment from that place that work occupies in your life.
Speaker 1: And I also like how financial independence may be pursuing
Speaker 1: that can allow you to start your own business or
Speaker 1: to pursue a career that just doesn't pay us much.
Speaker 1: And instead of that note to the grindstone life for
Speaker 1: a decade, right that we were talking about, so that
Speaker 1: you're can eliminate work forever, allowing your net worth to
Speaker 1: support your ability to pursue work that you actually care
Speaker 1: about that might not be as lucrative. I think that
Speaker 1: is a better trade off, right than kind of the
Speaker 1: work as completely as hard as you can until you
Speaker 1: finally don't have to work at all anymore. Like it's
Speaker 1: it's like a spigot that's either all on or all off,
Speaker 1: And I just don't think that's like the best way
Speaker 1: to conceptualize totally. Yeah, there are a lot of in
Speaker 1: between points. It doesn't have to be binary. But I
Speaker 1: think it can also lead to not only just work
Speaker 1: that you find more meaningful or that you're more passionate about,
Speaker 1: but it can also lead to you continuing to do
Speaker 1: that work just at a pace of life that you
Speaker 1: envisioned for yourself. And so I think I Like. The
Speaker 1: reason I say this is because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of times there can be so much, maybe an over
Speaker 1: emphasis placed on work that's your passion. And I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot of folks out there who might be
Speaker 1: listening thinking, yeah, I never found like my like my
Speaker 1: passion job, or they're thinking, well, like, I've got this job.
Speaker 1: It pays pretty well, I've got pretty good benefits, it's
Speaker 1: got good you know, I've got some good flexibility. But
Speaker 1: what I say, it's like my passion, I don't, I
Speaker 1: don't know, Like what does that look like? I think
Speaker 1: there are going to give you enough time to pursue
Speaker 1: those passions. On the side, I think if it pays
Speaker 1: enough and offers you enough flexibility, that's a great scenario
Speaker 1: for a ton of people. Oh absolutely yeah. And so
Speaker 1: I guess when I'm pointing out though, is that the
Speaker 1: way that we view our work I think comes down
Speaker 1: oftentimes to just recognizing the value that we are able
Speaker 1: to bring to other people's lives, not necessarily ditching that
Speaker 1: job for something that we are going to find more passionate. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's easy I think for like an E. R doctor
Speaker 1: to say this, I'm making a difference here like, I'm
Speaker 1: literally saving lives, and so in that case, I think
Speaker 1: those doctors perhaps don't have to do as much work.
Speaker 1: Uh from what is this work providing for folks? Because
Speaker 1: it's very obvious, right, like really you're saving you're saving
Speaker 1: the lives of people, compared to like a window washer,
Speaker 1: where they're like, Okay, how is this making a difference?
Speaker 1: And instead of maybe looking down on the work that
Speaker 1: you know you might consider to be menial labor to
Speaker 1: instead of look like literally look at the value the
Speaker 1: benefit that you're bringing to those around you, or to
Speaker 1: your your clients or your customers, or at least to
Speaker 1: your boss who is happy to pay you for the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. It's more of like this mental
Speaker 1: like kind of mind shift I think that can take
Speaker 1: place rather than like this literal career or job shift
Speaker 1: in order to find more fulfillment within your work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think in in any job you can find
Speaker 1: kind of the way that you can view it as
Speaker 1: an act of service. And yes, exactly, even in something
Speaker 1: like pressure washing somebody's right, which I used to do
Speaker 1: when I got my my first full time gig in radio,
Speaker 1: I was pressure washing on the side. And there's a
Speaker 1: way that you can view that as just like a
Speaker 1: meaningless task, a job that needs to get done, or
Speaker 1: you can view it as like serving someone and helping
Speaker 1: them make their how slept better, Like look how clean
Speaker 1: this house is? Look how look how nice this driveway is?
Speaker 1: Always maybe feel good. After the kids are gonna be
Speaker 1: able to come out here, they're gonna sit on this
Speaker 1: driveway and it's gonna be so clean, like it's not
Speaker 1: gonna have any more that tree grime or like how
Speaker 1: to driveways get so dirty. I don't even know tree
Speaker 1: sap and it's like tree sap, but it's just like
Speaker 1: it's like tree dander. It's just like this gunk that
Speaker 1: gets on there, you know. But like if you can
Speaker 1: look at it that way, I think I can make
Speaker 1: any job that you're doing, uh seeing much more fulfilling.
Speaker 1: Makes me think of Mike Rowe, who we've talked about
Speaker 1: trying to get on the get on the show before.
Speaker 1: But like the ability to find like joy and contentment
Speaker 1: within work that you do, I think more value needs
Speaker 1: to be placed on those types of jobs. And so
Speaker 1: we just talked about going part time, and I think
Speaker 1: taking a break is another thing that you can consider
Speaker 1: instead of like thinking that you have to quit work
Speaker 1: all together, taking an extended period of time off is
Speaker 1: another good way to think about getting away from work,
Speaker 1: but for a period of time, but for a you know,
Speaker 1: defined period of time, something like a few months. And
Speaker 1: you know, occasionally our employer is actually willing to give
Speaker 1: that to us, like other times they aren't. We actually
Speaker 1: talked about this, that the fact that more companies are
Speaker 1: offering sabbaticals just a few months ago on the show,
Speaker 1: and we think that's actually a really cool perk um
Speaker 1: that a lot of companies are offering their employees somewhere
Speaker 1: between one and three months of of leave, whether it's
Speaker 1: paid or unpaid. But I think those extended times away
Speaker 1: from work are good for our brains, are good for
Speaker 1: our bodies, and they often provide some renewed insight for
Speaker 1: us into what we want our work lives to look
Speaker 1: like moving forward. So um, yeah, instead of like quitting
Speaker 1: and leaving all together, Uh, it's it's a good idea
Speaker 1: to see if you can work in an extended breaks,
Speaker 1: some sort of sabbatical so that you can maybe reflect
Speaker 1: and get renewed, get some rest, and then you know,
Speaker 1: either come back with a renewed passion or maybe just
Speaker 1: kind of yeah, start figuring out how you can pivot
Speaker 1: into something else in the future. Yeah, I'll mention too.
Speaker 1: I feel like the word sabbatical is like totally in
Speaker 1: vogue right now, like you hear, not only more like
Speaker 1: there's more people we know who are using that term,
Speaker 1: but also like was written I think it was in
Speaker 1: like Fortune or something like that. A lot of companies
Speaker 1: are doing it as well, and I like the reason
Speaker 1: I feel like it's overused is because like, really it's
Speaker 1: just a break, like for most folks, but most people
Speaker 1: think of a break as like a week, and it's
Speaker 1: about is like it's a longer break. But I think
Speaker 1: it goes beyond that, and it comes down to the
Speaker 1: intentionality that comes with what you do with that time,
Speaker 1: because I think what's like truly involved is pausing from
Speaker 1: your work but then looking like literally sort of like
Speaker 1: what I was saying earlier, looking back at the work
Speaker 1: that you've done and like reflecting on it and to
Speaker 1: realize that like, oh man, this is this is good work,
Speaker 1: like I did a good thing here, but then also
Speaker 1: looking ahead and maybe deciding what do I want that
Speaker 1: you know, the next seven years of my life to
Speaker 1: look like, what what is it going to involve? Like,
Speaker 1: what is my career path going to be? Am I
Speaker 1: going to be with the same employer? Is it time
Speaker 1: to you know, hang my own shinkle and go out
Speaker 1: on my own But it is important to note that
Speaker 1: that ditching work, Like the reason we're mentioning this is
Speaker 1: because we want folks to know that it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be permanent. You don't have to retire early completely.
Speaker 1: You can just take one these breaks. You could take
Speaker 1: a more intentional sabbatical. For instance, our our buddy Chad Carson,
Speaker 1: he moved to another much more affordable country. He's planning
Speaker 1: to be there for like six or nine months or
Speaker 1: something like that. He's about to do this with his
Speaker 1: family for the second time. He's not trying to quit
Speaker 1: work all together. But he's all about the exposure and
Speaker 1: the sort of the the cultural experience that his family,
Speaker 1: that in particular his kids are going to be able
Speaker 1: to experience. And so we mentioned this because we feel
Speaker 1: that seasons of relaxation, of being intentional with where your
Speaker 1: mind is not just thinking about the next project at
Speaker 1: work that needs to get accomplished or solved or figured out,
Speaker 1: being able to focus on the future, being able to
Speaker 1: focus on your family. We think all these things are
Speaker 1: are all very important. Yeah, they're all important, But you
Speaker 1: don't have to quit your job altogether and never work
Speaker 1: again in order to get a taste of some of
Speaker 1: the best parts of what early retirement looks like. That's
Speaker 1: kind of what we're saying, right, that there are other
Speaker 1: ways to kind of enjoy some of the best parts
Speaker 1: without saying like I gotta have two million dollar portfolio
Speaker 1: a nest egg um in order to even be able
Speaker 1: to consider leaving my job. It's like, no, no no, no,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of steps in between, and when
Speaker 1: it's all or none, you're you're maybe putting too much
Speaker 1: emphasis on a movement that could make you unhappy for
Speaker 1: an extended period of time when there are better options
Speaker 1: on like this dial, right, you're like, instead of turning
Speaker 1: it to ten, turn it to three or five. Switch.
Speaker 1: It's not an on or off switch only. Yeah, and Matt,
Speaker 1: you mentioned Chad and his family doing their second sabbatical.
Speaker 1: I did something similar actually when I was like twenty two,
Speaker 1: quitting my first job for three months, and I thought
Speaker 1: I was just going to use it as an opportunity
Speaker 1: to move out west to a different part of the country,
Speaker 1: but it ended up I moved back down here to
Speaker 1: the southeast. But it was one of those things where
Speaker 1: I didn't even have a ton of money saved up.
Speaker 1: I'd like ten thousand dollars maybe in my bank account,
Speaker 1: and I knew that I could travel cheaply for three
Speaker 1: months on on that money, on that nest egg, and
Speaker 1: I still had some left over at the end. So
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where I think sometimes people
Speaker 1: assume that even for that, they need like some sort
Speaker 1: of massive nest egg hanging out in their saving muse account,
Speaker 1: And I just don't think that's the case. I think
Speaker 1: you can make one of these things happen without necessarily
Speaker 1: upending your life completely or having just a ridiculous amount
Speaker 1: of money on hand. That's true, Yeah, and we should
Speaker 1: really give credit to to to where it's due. A
Speaker 1: lot of folks within the Fire movement have talked about
Speaker 1: the problem with the retire early portion of fire, uh,
Speaker 1: And you know, some of this is just a reflection
Speaker 1: of the earlier fire folks and the ensuing branding of Fire,
Speaker 1: But lots of people who are all in on fire
Speaker 1: they don't, you know, they don't really choose to walk
Speaker 1: away from work all together. Uh. Like, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of folks who end up starting a blog, who
Speaker 1: start a podcast promoting the tenets of fire to other folks,
Speaker 1: and a lot of those individuals are making a solid
Speaker 1: income from that newfound, enjoyable post retirement work. But retiring
Speaker 1: from work altogether at a young age like that being
Speaker 1: your only goal, that is not what we're trying to
Speaker 1: get folks to do here. And it's not just because
Speaker 1: we want people to work for the rest of their
Speaker 1: lives without actually, you know, quitting work at some point.
Speaker 1: But I think one of the other reasons that I
Speaker 1: think work is at least some work is helpful for
Speaker 1: people is because a lot of folks in the fire
Speaker 1: lifestyle or who have actually pulled the trigger and they
Speaker 1: have retired early. Well, I feel like I've heard a
Speaker 1: good number of them say that the fire lifestyle can
Speaker 1: be lonely, and so I think part of what makes
Speaker 1: not working fun is having other enjoyable things to do
Speaker 1: and then other people to do them way. I think
Speaker 1: that's why so many folks within the fire movement have blogs,
Speaker 1: and because they're trying to convert more folks over to
Speaker 1: their side too, over to the dark side perhaps, Uh,
Speaker 1: And I need more daytime pool hang friends. Come join me.
Speaker 1: The water is fine, and I want you to be
Speaker 1: a part of my life. Literally, I've heard folks talk
Speaker 1: about that before. Yeah, because if all your friends are
Speaker 1: still working right early retirement, it kind of can become
Speaker 1: this lonely endeavor. So it's it's truly, it's not just
Speaker 1: the stock market troubles or the reality of inflation that
Speaker 1: makes fire less desirable right now. It's it's the reality
Speaker 1: fire it's not always as rosy as the folks pursuing
Speaker 1: it hoped it would be once they achieve it. And
Speaker 1: so you know, our friend Brandon the mad Fienist, he's
Speaker 1: he's kind of admitted this much that that his fire
Speaker 1: reality was actually a good bit tougher than he dreamed
Speaker 1: it would be. And it actually kind of brings me
Speaker 1: back to our our conversation with Wes Moss back in
Speaker 1: the day. Matt he he is mostly focused on helping
Speaker 1: traditional retirees make the transition to retirement in a happy way,
Speaker 1: but he says that the happiest retirees, even the ones
Speaker 1: who bag work early have a slew of what he
Speaker 1: calls corpor suits, which are which are extremely meaningful hobbies.
Speaker 1: But they also have a significant attachment to friends into family.
Speaker 1: They spend a lot of time with them in their
Speaker 1: retired years, and that's just not nearly as possible. It's
Speaker 1: so much harder to do as an early retiree. But
Speaker 1: it's also as much more difficult because of the reality
Speaker 1: that most of your friends are probably still traditionally employee.
Speaker 1: They're still working, and so they're not going to be
Speaker 1: able to hang out with you during the day when
Speaker 1: you want a hiking buddy or someone to play disc
Speaker 1: golf with. And so I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: other things where it might sound nice a ditch work,
Speaker 1: But then when you think about the reality, it's like, well,
Speaker 1: if all my favorite people are still working, um, it
Speaker 1: might it might feel a little more like a prison
Speaker 1: than it does some sort of new found freedom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so all the more reason to talk about money, to
Speaker 1: talk about personal finances, so that you can win your
Speaker 1: friends over, so that you can all go out and
Speaker 1: do that together. But like we said earlier, you know,
Speaker 1: we're not only going to hate on fire on even
Speaker 1: early retirements. There are some benefits. There are some great
Speaker 1: things that you can do when you retire early. Uh,
Speaker 1: and there are some great overall principles that fire espouses,
Speaker 1: and so we will get to all of those right
Speaker 1: after this break. All right, we are back, Matt. I
Speaker 1: feel like until this point we have been a little
Speaker 1: Debbie downer. We've talked about how fire feels a little
Speaker 1: economically untenable right now, at least for a lot of
Speaker 1: folks who previously had a plan worked out their plan.
Speaker 1: It's a little more difficult these days. For sure. What
Speaker 1: do they say, you make a plan? And God laughs
Speaker 1: that that's one of those things where a lot of
Speaker 1: people in the Fire movement have probably experienced that a
Speaker 1: little bit within the last six months to a year,
Speaker 1: as inflation is soaring and the market is not doing
Speaker 1: so hot. But but the reality is that you and
Speaker 1: I actually love a lot of things about what the
Speaker 1: Fire movement preaches, and and I think it's it's been
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. In many ways, it's been
Speaker 1: far more good than it has been bad, and it's
Speaker 1: impacted are thinking insignificant ways. So maybe for a second,
Speaker 1: we can share some of our favorite aspects of fire.
Speaker 1: We can we can end this podcast on a positive note. Totally, man,
Speaker 1: let's do that's. Uh. You know, one of the best
Speaker 1: things about fire is the fact that it stresses a
Speaker 1: high savings rate. Like that is something that we can
Speaker 1: totally get behind. That's something that we prize because traditional
Speaker 1: personal finance folks, they they've often suggested saving Uh, let's
Speaker 1: say ten percent of your income doesn't sound like enough. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: while that's the case, Fire uh proponents they like to
Speaker 1: turn that dial up in a big way, something closer
Speaker 1: to five, fifty, even seventy percent of your income. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some firefolks actually do this, and we think that that
Speaker 1: can be a really good thing. If you have this
Speaker 1: overarching plan and you know what it is that you
Speaker 1: are escaping to, right, like that that you are working towards.
Speaker 1: We want you to reach these varying stages of financial
Speaker 1: freedom well before you you reach actual retirement age as
Speaker 1: defined by the I r S, and a better than
Speaker 1: average savings rate is going to be key to actually
Speaker 1: make this happen. Yeah, Matt. Before I kind of started
Speaker 1: reading some of the fireblogs, I just assumed that I
Speaker 1: was killing it. I like a fift savings right, and
Speaker 1: I thought that was like, there weren't many people out
Speaker 1: there doing much better than that. Then I ran into
Speaker 1: some of the firefolks and I saw how much they
Speaker 1: were saving, and I was like, it was a challenge
Speaker 1: to me to do better, And I realized that that
Speaker 1: is one of the best things that Fire has to offer.
Speaker 1: It's it's showing a lot of people that there's a
Speaker 1: lot more wiggle room in your budget and there's more
Speaker 1: ability for you to save than maybe you previously thought.
Speaker 1: But the firefolks aren't just saving money. They want people
Speaker 1: to invest their money. And so, yeah, while we agree
Speaker 1: it's not sitting in that saving as accounts earning their
Speaker 1: point nine percent now classically in vts more than what's
Speaker 1: like barely more at one point one point two five
Speaker 1: Per's true, Yeah, so it's better at least savings rates
Speaker 1: are going up. Having cash on hand is important, even
Speaker 1: in an environment of high inflation. But but investing allows
Speaker 1: your money to work harder for you than you're working
Speaker 1: for it, and that is something the Fire movement understands
Speaker 1: in a big way. And so what happens is compounding
Speaker 1: starts to do the heavy lifting for you. After years
Speaker 1: of dedication to investing and so we would say that
Speaker 1: the movement is also all about simple, low cost methods
Speaker 1: of investing that we love, you know, stacking your money
Speaker 1: away into index funds, low cost index funds like the
Speaker 1: Total Stock Market Fund or SMP five fund. But v
Speaker 1: o O baby Poo is great VT rates. We've got
Speaker 1: FC rocks like those are those are some of our
Speaker 1: favorite funds for you to consider investing your money in.
Speaker 1: But lots of firefolks they get they even get go
Speaker 1: past that, they get creative by investing in real estate
Speaker 1: or by house hacking as well. And so yeah, the
Speaker 1: desire on behalf of so many in this community to
Speaker 1: invest not just a small fraction of your paycheck, not
Speaker 1: just getting maybe the company match in your four own K,
Speaker 1: but to be stuffing huge chunks of your earnings into
Speaker 1: those accounts. That's something that Matt, you and I we
Speaker 1: both get behind in a big way. We think that's
Speaker 1: laudable for sure. One of the other core tenants of
Speaker 1: the Fire movement is the fact that by having more
Speaker 1: money on hand, that that means you are going to
Speaker 1: have more options at your disposal. Because you know, we'd
Speaker 1: say that dishing work altogether in your early thirties that
Speaker 1: like that alone isn't a great goal, But the more
Speaker 1: you are able to save, the more choice that you're
Speaker 1: going to have over how it is that you spend
Speaker 1: your time. That that's what's gonna allow you to be
Speaker 1: able to go from full time to part time. You know,
Speaker 1: like that is going to be what allows you to
Speaker 1: spend more time with your kids or serving your community.
Speaker 1: You know, you can choose to do non work things
Speaker 1: with your time, whether that's volunteering with the local Habitat
Speaker 1: for Humanity affiliate or you know, serving regularly, say it
Speaker 1: like at a local soup kitchen. There are a million
Speaker 1: different ways that you can make yourself invaluable to your
Speaker 1: community and to your neighbors that don't involve you being compensated.
Speaker 1: And so having options allows you to to shift your
Speaker 1: goals as you get older, because you might find that
Speaker 1: the things that sounded good in your twenties they're just
Speaker 1: not as appetizing in your in your forties. That growing
Speaker 1: nest egg is going to allow you to have the
Speaker 1: freedom to choose your own adventure. Yeah, man, I liked
Speaker 1: Miller High Life a lot more in my twenties than
Speaker 1: I do in my late thirties. You know, I'm I
Speaker 1: used to settle for some of that stuff in my
Speaker 1: fridge still dig it just can't do you, Yeah, after
Speaker 1: cutting the grass. There is a time and place for
Speaker 1: almost all beer. Yeah, my friend, No, I'm I agree
Speaker 1: with you, But I'd rather even have like rather po
Speaker 1: downs and halfway crooks. Ye longer, absolutely for sure that
Speaker 1: being said, you know, just to be able to Yeah,
Speaker 1: for pure hydration purposes, Miller, I'll totally do. It's not
Speaker 1: hydrating though, that's the problem. You should drink water instead.
Speaker 1: But yeah, your prior change as you get older and
Speaker 1: some of the things that you maybe thought were great,
Speaker 1: or you thought the ways in which you are living frugally,
Speaker 1: you're gonna kind of do that in perpetuity. Well, you
Speaker 1: might want to expand some things as you get older,
Speaker 1: and so you have to think about that on the
Speaker 1: front end. Um that the way you live in the
Speaker 1: budget you have now won't stay constant. And we we
Speaker 1: also think, Matt, that that fire can make you a
Speaker 1: more productive citizen kind of like you were talking about right,
Speaker 1: like life just isn't all about work, and and the
Speaker 1: Protestant work ethic, it just gets a lot of praise
Speaker 1: right that this country, we do have a problem with
Speaker 1: over work. There's a tendency for people to put too
Speaker 1: much stock in their career and not enough in their
Speaker 1: family at the family and community level. And so it's
Speaker 1: it's it's, uh, you know, we just don't take enough
Speaker 1: breaks in our work. Weeks as a whole are just
Speaker 1: too strenuous. I would say. So being able to work
Speaker 1: less means that you can, like you said, volunteer more.
Speaker 1: You know, you can show up at your kids school. Uh,
Speaker 1: you can support the teachers. You know. We we shouldn't
Speaker 1: just be working stiffs. We're really I think what we're
Speaker 1: saying in this episode is that we should aim to
Speaker 1: be whole listic citizens who have like the time, the ability,
Speaker 1: and the energy to make impacts in other ways rather
Speaker 1: than just at the office. Yeah, and you know, you
Speaker 1: were just mentioning the Protestant work ethic. We I think
Speaker 1: the values that Fire espouses are just way better than
Speaker 1: kind of the mainstream American values today, not just in
Speaker 1: in how much we work, but also just in how
Speaker 1: much crap that we buy for ourselves. Because consumerism, I
Speaker 1: think it's the de facto religion of the US, and
Speaker 1: Fire is promoting frugality, it's promoting intentionality, and yeah, we're
Speaker 1: we're in the same camp on this one. We believe
Speaker 1: that attempts to rein in spending and to be content
Speaker 1: with less are definitely laudable. And so, you know, please
Speaker 1: don't hear say that the Fire movement is all bad,
Speaker 1: because we've you know, we've had some awesome folks like
Speaker 1: Mr Carl and Rich and regular Kirsten and Julian, we've
Speaker 1: had them on the show. There's some of the biggest
Speaker 1: voices within the Fire movement, and there's a lot that
Speaker 1: we can learn from their experience. But we also believe
Speaker 1: that the Fire space also needs maybe a bit more humility. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this giant market correction it seems to be offering
Speaker 1: a dose of it right now. We had the financial
Speaker 1: Samurai you know again on the podcast on Monday, and
Speaker 1: he actually he had this recent post that you should
Speaker 1: check out about the regrets that a bear market can
Speaker 1: create in some firefolks, even the ones who are are blogging.
Speaker 1: They're out there teaching others about how to achieve financial
Speaker 1: independence and how to retire early. Uh. We will link
Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. Uh. But yeah, we
Speaker 1: believe that the pursuit of financial independence is a worthy goal,
Speaker 1: but the goal of of doing all that you can
Speaker 1: in order to achieve not only financial independence but being
Speaker 1: able to retire early is a misplaced goal. You know,
Speaker 1: we we we want to make sure that you are
Speaker 1: again not just escaping from something, but that you are
Speaker 1: escaping to something, because the end result, like, like I
Speaker 1: was saying earlier, like I think the end result might
Speaker 1: be the same where perhaps maybe you aren't working right,
Speaker 1: like maybe you know that you went your life to
Speaker 1: look like actually retiring and working for your local government
Speaker 1: where you know what, you're not making hardly any money
Speaker 1: at all, like not enough of a wage to support
Speaker 1: a typical family. Or maybe you know that you want
Speaker 1: your life to look like you being more involved with
Speaker 1: your kids at their school, where you're gonna be helping
Speaker 1: out the teachers and helping out the school board, or
Speaker 1: something like that, where you're always showing up to the
Speaker 1: swim meets. Are friend Maggie, like that is how she
Speaker 1: is spending her time since she's been retired, Or maybe
Speaker 1: like literally it could just be you sitting on a
Speaker 1: hammock and reading. I think that's totally fine as long
Speaker 1: as you have identified that that is a goal and
Speaker 1: that that is something you want to achieve as opposed
Speaker 1: to something that you're just trying to escape from. Granted,
Speaker 1: if you've worked really hard and you're the type of
Speaker 1: person who has been able to achieve early retirement, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure if you're going to be super happy without life.
Speaker 1: I don't write like there's a certain amount of intentment,
Speaker 1: uh that that would require, and folks have varying degrees
Speaker 1: of that. It comes down to to your personality. But
Speaker 1: regardless of what your ultimate goal might be, just make
Speaker 1: sure that you have that identified for yourself and that
Speaker 1: will shape everything else that leads to it. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: I think there's there's some great thoughts my friend and
Speaker 1: I just you know, I think when the stock market
Speaker 1: is in bear market territory and when inflation is just
Speaker 1: running them uck, it's going to change. Of course, everybody,
Speaker 1: the best plans of of folks, they're going to have
Speaker 1: to readjust understandably. So especially if if that's that's the
Speaker 1: only goal, right, Like, if they haven't identified an actual
Speaker 1: goal and all they've looked at are the numbers, if
Speaker 1: if they only know they're not if all they know
Speaker 1: is that they have to hit x of their annual
Speaker 1: expensive if all they know is that they have to
Speaker 1: reach the point to where their investments can you know,
Speaker 1: four percent of that can cover their expenses for the year.
Speaker 1: And then the market tanks it completely, It flips your
Speaker 1: world upside down. And it does not surprise me one
Speaker 1: bit that there are folks who are experiencing some sort
Speaker 1: of quitters remorse, some great resign resignation remorse, because if
Speaker 1: there is a greater goal outside of just the numbers,
Speaker 1: I think that could be enough to spur you on
Speaker 1: to continue to do the hard work. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: like in the middle of a bear market like this,
Speaker 1: you're probably probably questioning everything if you don't have that right.
Speaker 1: I hope that the Fire movement in general use it
Speaker 1: this as like a growing learning moment and like you said,
Speaker 1: maybe I can teach you some humility mature because the
Speaker 1: movement as a whole, again, like we said, has so
Speaker 1: many good things going on and has it has really
Speaker 1: accelerated the concept of personal finance and how we talk
Speaker 1: about it. But at the same time, there are a
Speaker 1: lot of people who may be bought into something that
Speaker 1: now appears to be a bill of goods that they're
Speaker 1: gonna have a hard time achieving, and so, uh, maybe
Speaker 1: that isn't actually what you want or need to be
Speaker 1: sold anyway, that's kind of what we're saying. So hopefully
Speaker 1: this episode has made you rethink maybe the concept of fire,
Speaker 1: consider your work in a different light, and and think
Speaker 1: about other ways to achieve some of those goals, those
Speaker 1: life goals that you have aside from just bagging work
Speaker 1: in as little time as humanly possible. Totally all right, man,
Speaker 1: let's get back to the beer that you and I
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. This was just a kiss, which that's
Speaker 1: a song. Do you know that song? It sounds like
Speaker 1: the Killer song, but it's know you're thinking of somebody
Speaker 1: told me or that way. Yeah, I just know it's
Speaker 1: it's a Lady Annabelle Um or a lady A they
Speaker 1: changed their name. Um, it's a it's a song by them.
Speaker 1: I don't really know. I just know it's a song
Speaker 1: by them. You know. I went to the high school
Speaker 1: with two of the bandmates, and I did not know
Speaker 1: that lived in the same neighborhood as this guy's literally
Speaker 1: play guitar next to one of the dudes. I keep
Speaker 1: stepping it up, but it literally dated their sister. No,
Speaker 1: but I'm not necessarily gonna recommend that song like I'm
Speaker 1: gonna recommend this beer. Uh, this was a food or
Speaker 1: aged says on Ale with orange blossom, flowers and honey.
Speaker 1: I gotta say this is quite the label. It's got
Speaker 1: like a ton of bright, sunny, fresh colors going on here. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: just like the beer did. Right. The beer was was floral,
Speaker 1: but it was earthy. The orange vibes gave it like
Speaker 1: some brightness but just a can reflects, but just a kiss,
Speaker 1: just a little bit. So I I love a good
Speaker 1: funky says On. This was less on the funky side,
Speaker 1: more on the floral and at tracy side. But um,
Speaker 1: you know what, Seeson's are one of those dials that
Speaker 1: we don't have enough of. And I really enjoyed this one.
Speaker 1: I thought I had a little bit of oak vibe
Speaker 1: coming in as well from that food or not as
Speaker 1: much as I would have loved, but I could have
Speaker 1: taken a little bit more, just a kiss of that.
Speaker 1: So but overall I'd say, a really good beer. You
Speaker 1: can't not drink this and tell me this isn't refreshing.
Speaker 1: First quenching, even though it's even though it's but yeah,
Speaker 1: we will link to some of the different folks who
Speaker 1: we mentioned during this episode. You can find our show
Speaker 1: notes up on our website at how the Money dot com.
Speaker 1: If you have been listening to the show for a
Speaker 1: while and you have not left us a review, we
Speaker 1: would be incredibly thankful if you did that for us.
Speaker 1: That's not something we've been pushing folks to do recently.
Speaker 1: But if you have enjoyed this episode, if you listen
Speaker 1: to the show and you feel like it's able to
Speaker 1: broaden your horizons, if if it's allowed you to think
Speaker 1: about perhaps work or your money in a different way,
Speaker 1: we would love for you to share your thoughts and
Speaker 1: share how this podcast has helped you. And you can
Speaker 1: do that at Apple Podcasts or wherever it is that
Speaker 1: you listen to your podcast real, real quick and easy
Speaker 1: and Spotify. You don't you don't actually get a writer
Speaker 1: of you, but you can leave a star. We just
Speaker 1: click that star. We appreciate it in advance. But Matt,
Speaker 1: that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time,
Speaker 1: Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,