1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: It's going to be a very long road between the 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: end of Trump himself and the end of trump Ism. 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: The base of the party is very different from the 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: leadership of the party, which McConnell doesn't believe in any 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of that garbage, but he does believe in power and 6 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: he wants to keep it. 7 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: One thing I learned very. 8 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: Quickly in politics was that Rogerstone is ninety five percent 9 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: bullshit about Roger Stone. 10 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 2: He's an evil piece of shit. 11 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 3: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she. 12 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 4: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 13 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 4: living undercover all around the world. 14 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 3: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 15 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 3: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 16 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 4: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 17 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 4: created conspiracies in our operations. 18 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 3: We got people to believe things that weren't true. 19 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 4: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 20 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 4: news almost every day. 21 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 22 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 3: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 23 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mission Implausible. 24 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 5: All right, guys, Next week a big week. This is 25 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 5: our last episode before the election, and we all know 26 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 5: what we're doing right. 27 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 4: Well, I think we're kind of screwed anyway, because I mean, 28 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 4: obviously Jerry and I are on the lists. You know 29 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 4: they're gonna be coming at us. We could try to turn. 30 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 4: I think Trump actually really likes it when people say 31 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 4: bad things about him then come out and go the 32 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 4: opposite way. 33 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 5: I think the golden rule of Trump is it's better 34 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 5: to have said horrible things and then. 35 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 2: You sold your souls. What you're doing, you sold your. 36 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 5: Soul like those great Assyrian or other ancient Mesopotamian freezes, 37 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 5: of like the leader sitting on top of all the 38 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 5: slaughtered soldiers, like if you liked. 39 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 6: Him all along. 40 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 5: I think he thinks you're kind of a schmuck and 41 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 5: a sucker. But if, like he doesn't respect Giuliani, he 42 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 5: lets Juliani talk. But if everyone knows that you don't 43 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 5: like him, but you're saying you like him, that is 44 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 5: power in his mind. 45 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 4: Trump's fatal flaw here is that Jerry and I can't 46 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 4: be humiliated, like we've humiliated ourselves so much over so 47 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: long a period that there's nothing three daughters. 48 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: I've been through hemial like it right through. 49 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, and as Deep State guys, John and I we 50 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,399 Speaker 3: have kissed a lot of asses in our time, right, 51 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: so it's war criminals. 52 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 5: But Rick Wilson is he saw things early. He's been 53 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 5: an outspoken and I think this is going to be 54 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 5: a question for the rest of our lives. You know, 55 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 5: what did you do daddy? What did you do mommy? 56 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 5: During the And it is it's interesting how few have said, like, 57 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 5: we're not doing this conspiracy theory thing. We're not doing 58 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 5: this like truth doesn't matter approach to politics, even career Republicans, loyal, 59 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 5: long term party people. 60 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 4: I think Rick is like some others. There was an 61 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 4: up end Today's New York Times. I'm David French, who 62 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 4: is their conservative columnist, and he, like Rick, said, they 63 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 4: thought the Republican Party was a party of ideology, and 64 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 4: they had certain beliefs. And what they've now learned is 65 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 4: how long they were. And it's about violence as fault 66 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 4: for one person, that's about all these other things. And 67 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 4: they saw early on that he was going to destroy 68 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 4: the Republican Party. And in fact, we probably shouldn't even 69 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 4: call it the Republican Party. If Trump does win, they 70 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 4: should probably rebrand this thing. 71 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the Trump Party. 72 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 3: It takes one to no one for the Republican Party. 73 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 3: He understands how it operates. I think it takes a 74 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: lot of courage to like sort of turn on them 75 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 3: and use the same taxics that the old Republican Party 76 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 3: used against Democrats for the old Republican Party to use 77 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: against the new trumpy whatever it is, the Trump sort 78 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: of cult to personnel. 79 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's courageous. 80 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: I have a question for both of you, or at 81 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: least it's to come in so oftentimes fit very often, 82 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 3: when an ideology gets going, it will be hijacked by 83 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 3: a strong man. And I'm thinking, like sort of the 84 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: Nazi Party started out, there was a guy, greg Or Strasser, right, 85 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 3: who wanted to give it be the nice Nazi Party. 86 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: We're going to focus on the socialist part. And of 87 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: course all those guys were shot in the Night of 88 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: the Long Lives. And the same with Lenin to a 89 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 3: certain degree. You know, he his party and he was 90 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: pretty bad. But then Stalin came along. Cult to personality 91 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 3: hit what cult a personality? 92 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: The Bath Party? 93 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: They had an ideology and then pretty soon Saddam hijacks 94 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: and sod it and see it. So thoughts on like 95 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 3: ideologies being taken over. 96 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 5: By Yeah, I mean the Bath Party processes. It stood 97 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 5: for something like this kind of post Nasser in Egypt, 98 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 5: pan Arabic socialists. I found it fascinating how Asad and 99 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 5: Syria and Saddam in Iraq hated each other. You know, 100 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 5: that's kind of emblematic of the transition from hey, we're 101 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 5: all into in this international ideological approach to this is 102 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 5: my stuff and I get to keep all the stuff. No, 103 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 5: it's my stuff and I get to keep all the stuff. 104 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 5: We used to have a saying in Iraq all the time. 105 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 5: It's like when you would meet people who hated Saddam, Iraqis, 106 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 5: like new parties were forming, and the Iraqis would talk 107 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 5: say they don't want to eliminate Saddam, they just want 108 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 5: to replace Saddam themselves. And there were some people who 109 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 5: wanted to eliminate the whole Sadamist approach and create a 110 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 5: real democracy. But what's developed is pretty much just we 111 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 5: just have different Saddams. 112 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: Well Victor Rick Wilson, so you know, all these guys. 113 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 3: As soon as these strong men took power from an ideology, 114 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 3: from a movement, one of the first things they did 115 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 3: is they turned on their own supporters, right, you know, 116 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: they turned on people who had supported them, but they 117 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 3: worried about them, people who wouldn't bend a knee. So 118 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 3: people like Rick Wilson is like, they're going to turn 119 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 3: into the enemies, probably before we are right, because they're 120 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: former insiders. 121 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 5: All right, Well, I can't wait to hear what he says. 122 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 4: For our listeners who follow election coverage closely, you certainly 123 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 4: know our next guest, Rick Wilson. Rick is a political 124 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 4: strategist and ad maker, writer, speaker, and commentator. He's the 125 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 4: co founder of the Lincoln Project that has authored two 126 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 4: New York Times bestsellers, and has his own podcast with 127 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 4: Molly John Fast. For our purposes, we're especially interested in 128 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 4: his experience as a former Republican political strategist. So for me, 129 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 4: I'm an arduent follower of excellent put down vocabulary. I 130 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 4: learned the word chowed from him and WALLEYE chucklefuck, and 131 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 4: today on Twitter, Trump a quivering mass of evil. Sue it. 132 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 3: What have you got against sue it? 133 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: Rick? 134 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: Listen, I pro sue it and I vote. 135 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 4: So Rick, can you talk about how political parties might 136 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 4: use conspiracy theories? To help their candidates and did sure. 137 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: So when you were it wasn't really my flavor particularly, 138 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: But there's been this evolution. I'm not going to say 139 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 1: it's only in the Republican Party, because there are plenty 140 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: of Democratic Party conspiracy theories over the years as well, 141 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: but there has been this evolution as social media has 142 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,239 Speaker 1: convinced people that what they see online must be true, 143 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: that became it became easier and easier to convince people 144 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: that ludicrous things were actually happening behind the scenes, that 145 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: they were causing them. And as we've moved away from 146 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: the traditional media structure of the country had for a 147 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: long time, you know, three television networks and then for 148 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a while it was seeing in an MSNBC, in Fox. 149 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: But now it's a billion Facebook pages of the Patriotic 150 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: Patriots egle Forum dot ru and these things that appear 151 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: convincing and you can sell people on truly dumb and 152 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: dangerous and pernicious ideas, and so it's really become a 153 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: centerpiece of the way that particularly the Republican Party right 154 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: now prosecutes its cases. You know, it's not enough that 155 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris is a liberal. She's got to be a 156 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: global plant by a Marxist super state hidden away somewhere 157 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: in the world, secretly run by George Soros, out of 158 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: the basement of a pizza restaurant, or whatever flavor of 159 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: crazy you want to hit that day. They will always 160 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: find a way to include it. Now inside the dialogue 161 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: in the Republican Party, be a little bipartisan. 162 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: Here. 163 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: Democrats have occasionally gotten a little what we call blue Anon, 164 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: where they believe some things that are not true to 165 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: be true. And it is a sign not of any 166 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: failing of any one party. It's just the capacity of 167 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: these methods is so beyond what we've ever experienced before. 168 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 3: Why do people like tolerate and buy into this when 169 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 3: I used to love the Republican Party parts of it 170 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: in any case, And I don't get what happened to 171 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 3: the party. Where are the rational people? 172 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: They mostly got pushed out guys like me. I'll give 173 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: you a good example. The first sign of a crack 174 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: between me and the Republican base was back in two 175 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, and some reporters said to me, what 176 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: about this story, isn't it true? He was born in Kenya? 177 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: And I said to political, I'm like, it's the dumbest 178 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: fucking thing I've ever heard. What are you talking about? 179 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: That's insanity? And they're like, no, no researchers. And so 180 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: I literally called my opposition research guy. I'm like, hey, 181 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: do me a favorite check the hospital. There's a birth 182 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: record in Hawaii. Of course there was, but all of 183 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: them decided that this was true, and not the senior 184 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: campaign people for McCaine. But I was hanging out there 185 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: because people were really angry that I was trying to 186 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: blow up this great narrative they thought was going to 187 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: defeat Barack Obama, and I was working hard to defeat 188 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: Barack Obama at the time. You guys know, from the 189 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: intelligence world, you're trying to sell someone a vision of 190 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: something that they can or should be, and you frame 191 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: up the world in a way that makes it compelling 192 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: for them to do that. And these conspiracy theories take 193 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: people who are lower information voters, who are lower sometimes 194 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: not always, but generally speaking of lower education levels, and 195 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: gives them this cohesive vision of the world that makes sense, 196 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: and it gives them a way to say, oh, that's 197 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: why my life sucks, that's why these people don't treat 198 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: me the way I want to be treated. 199 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 2: That's why I lost my job. 200 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: And it's convenient and it's comfortable, and man, it's just 201 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: it's really unfortunately leads to some very dark outcomes. 202 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 4: Like you said, I think people it's about feelings. I 203 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 4: feel like that's true. 204 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, vibes based, all vibes based. 205 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 4: Exactly, and I can imagine why campaigns would want to 206 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 4: weaponize that if they could. Do you think there are 207 00:09:55,920 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 4: strategists around Trump who see these or try to to 208 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 4: even create these things for their own purpose or are 209 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 4: they just out there and they let them go. 210 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: I think for the most part inside the campaign, they 211 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: depend on the existence of those things outside of the campaign, 212 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: and they can nudge them, leverage them not and wink 213 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: at them. I know, inside the right wing media infrastructure 214 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: and the right wing political infrastructure, there are a lot 215 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: of these guys. The Jack Posobiacs, the Steve Bannons, the 216 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: Dan Bongino's, the Roger Stones. They're personally too smart to 217 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: believe this garbage, but they do recognize how much it 218 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: motivates a lot of people inside the Republican base, and 219 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: they really like that. 220 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 3: So your political strategy is not a neuroscientist, but people 221 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 3: in their general lives. Even paultists, they know that if 222 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 3: I don't put gas in my car, it's not going 223 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 3: to run forever. Right, But when it comes to their 224 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 3: political philosophy, they throw basic rationality out, so, at least 225 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 3: in my mind, in their minds, there's this dissonance that 226 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 3: goes on where they accept fantasy in their political world 227 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 3: and for their political leaders and people who you know, 228 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: they want to represent them, but COVID vaccines, vaccines in general, 229 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 3: but they don't accept it in their personals. 230 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, the delta between what they like as a 231 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: political technique or a political angle. But most people who say, oh, 232 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: they control the weather, they also if a hurricanes steaming 233 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: right towards them, they're going to probably evacuate. They're not 234 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: so irrational. But politics has made Americans less rational about 235 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: their lives in ways that we haven't really fully reckoned 236 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: with yet. I think it's been difficult for Americans, more 237 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: centrist Americans, more or less politically engaged Americans, to say, wow, 238 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: they really do believe in like Hillary Clinton, a global 239 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: pedophile conspiracy or whatever, all these crazy things that we 240 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: all go, God, come on. There are a lot of 241 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 1: people who are shocked how what their neighbors believe. They 242 00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: act normal during the day, and then it'll come up 243 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: at barbecue. Somebody in a barbecue will suddenly said, what 244 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: about the Illuminati and the lizard people. It shocks people, 245 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: it bothers them because it really has. It really does 246 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: show how our culture has been rebuilt around the things 247 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,719 Speaker 1: that make us politically and socially comfortable. 248 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 4: I want to talk a little bit about Lincoln Projects. 249 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 4: So in some ways it seems like we're in this 250 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 4: secret Republican Civil War, right, so some people, but it's 251 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 4: not so yeah, not so secret that some people want 252 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 4: the Republicans to be maga and others want to be 253 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 4: more kin to the traditional Republican party. I do personally 254 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 4: think that there are generally two types of people in 255 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 4: the world, right, some value strength and security and other 256 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 4: value fairness and inclusion. That's why sort of two parties 257 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 4: in all sorts of countries. 258 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 2: Do you think we need. 259 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 4: A generally leftist party and a generally rightist party? And 260 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 4: so what do you think is happening and what is 261 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 4: your role in that? What are you guys trying to do? Well? 262 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: Look, I believe that one party states are always doomed 263 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: I think they descend into authoritarianism and domestically one party 264 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: states to send into corruption. And you look at Florida, 265 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: my home state. It is one of the most lavishly 266 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: corrupt places you can imagine. It's all pay to play. 267 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: It is beyond what people even believe. And on the 268 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: flip side, New Jersey is basically a state run by 269 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: a political mob. And so you don't see I don't 270 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: see one party systems really benefiting the population. And so 271 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: I think we need a center left and a center 272 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: right party in this country. I mean, right now, I'm 273 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: part of a weird coalition. It runs from Bernie Sanders 274 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: and AOC to guys like me and Adam Kinsinger and 275 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: Liz and Dick Cheney. If you can't find a place 276 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: to live in that coalition, I don't know where you're at. 277 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: I don't know how I can help you. 278 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: The Republican Party of today is a different creature than 279 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: the traditional Republican Party, which, at least aspirationally, at least 280 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: on paper, believed in limited government and the rule of 281 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 1: law and keeping the role of the state in check 282 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: and the things that would be recognizable as traditional GOP. 283 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: Those things are no longer a part of the Republican 284 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: Party because now it's about occult. Now it's about Donald 285 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 1: Trump and his whims and his psychological quirks, and all 286 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: the things that he represents are very distant from the 287 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: old Reagan, Busch, Eisenhower, GOP. And look, a lot of 288 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: people very much regret that, and they've been trapped in 289 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: this idea, this very false dichotomy of well, oh, it's 290 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: either Trump or communism. It's either Trump or George Soros 291 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: takes over the world. And those things depend on fantasies 292 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: and conspiracies and imaginary demons that are out there in 293 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: a way that it's been a long time in our politics, 294 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: or actually never in our politics where we've seen that 295 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: kind of nerve racking, constant revision of history about what 296 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: the party is and means. Because look, when the Republican 297 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: Party was formed in eighteen fifty four, it came out 298 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: of the Whig Parties collapse, and it had some the 299 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: Whig Parties DNA in it, but it remained largely unaltered 300 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty four, so almost one hundred year run, 301 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: and then it transformed itself from nineteen sixty four through 302 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen into the sort of pro security, pro limited government, 303 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: constitutional rule of law party, and now it's something very different. 304 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: So it's only had three iterations. Democratic parties had a 305 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: few more iterations over the generations, but GEOP has really 306 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: been only about three things. And now it feels much 307 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: different than it did when it started. 308 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: It's dabbling with strongmanism, authoritarianism now called leaders. 309 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: One hundred percent. 310 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 4: Let's take a break, we'll be right back. All right, 311 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 4: let's get back into it. 312 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 3: So I wonder if you'd run with me on a 313 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 3: thought experiment that's just for the sake of argument. Trump 314 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 3: loses or he has his last big man, what happens 315 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 3: to the base and what it hapends to trump Ism 316 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: once Trump is no longer like a viable lead. 317 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: Jerry, that's a That's an absolutely fantastic question. It is 318 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: a question I think about every single day. I don't 319 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: think trump Ism immediately disappears. I think it has some 320 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: shelf life left to run because in part it's the 321 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: product of this it's a product of this very effective 322 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: media ecosystem. And it's not just Fox, it's Facebook, and 323 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: it's Discord and Telegram and all these other channels that 324 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: have become definitional to how the party indoctrinates its members 325 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: and communicates with its members. Those things are still going 326 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: to exist. Rupert Murdoch is going to live at least 327 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: four hundred years old, and he's going to run Fox 328 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: as he runs Fox right now. He has no incentive 329 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: or desire to change that. And I do think it's 330 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: going to be a very long road between the end 331 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: of Trump himself and the end of Trump. And again, 332 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: the base of the party is very different from the 333 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: leadership of the party. Mitch McConnell doesn't believe in any 334 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: of that garbage, but he does believe in power and 335 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 1: he wants to keep it. 336 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: Did they need a pail it in? Do they need 337 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 3: a leader? Can trump Ism survive as an ism without 338 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 3: a leader? 339 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: Was different? 340 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 3: People vibe for it to take control of whatever it is, 341 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 3: Like parna, isn't it? 342 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: You know? The terrific question? And well, pronism is actually 343 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: a really good analogy to it too. I think there's 344 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: a real problem inherent in this whole thing, and that 345 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: Trump got away with things as a celebrity that an 346 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: ordinary political leader could never get away with. 347 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: He got away with things as a. 348 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: TV personality, And I saw this in focus groups in 349 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen. We were trying to beat 350 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: the guy, and people were just Their image of Trump 351 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: was locked in by fourteen years of The Apprentice on TV. 352 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: He's the richest man in the world. He owns all 353 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: of Manhattan, he builds everything, everything he touches turns to gold. 354 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: And the entire appeal of Trump in that space came 355 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: from lower middle class voters who are legitimately pissed off 356 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: about a lot of things in our culture, our society, 357 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: and our economy. The economic anxiety thing was real in 358 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: the beginning. We had gone through the two thousand and 359 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: eight crisis, we had gone through a lot of other 360 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: restructurings of our economy, and a lot of those working 361 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 1: class folks saw him as like, he'll be the avatar 362 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: of me, sticking it to the man. I'm going to 363 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: use Trump as my weapons system to go after these 364 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: people that treat me like crap. And for Trump, that 365 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: was a great image to build. It worked like magic 366 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: to persuade a lot of the people in the Republican 367 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: base that he needed. Those people are dying off. The 368 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: demographics of that group are quite elderly, because a lot 369 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 1: of them are earlier boomers, and for us late boomers, 370 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: the most intense feelings about Trump are with people seventy 371 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: and older. They really are pissed off about a lot 372 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: of things, and he really channels that for them. That 373 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: will be going away, that will be changing, but that's 374 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: going to take a while. That's a process, not a solution. 375 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: And the other part of it is that there's only 376 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: one thing in politics that teaches you anything, and it's pain. 377 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: Pain is the only teacher in political life. If Republicans 378 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: start losing races consistently because trump Ism doesn't sell and 379 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't scale, they will change. 380 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 2: They will not stick with a. 381 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: Poisoned chalice for very long. But the old Party's never 382 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: coming back, Let's put it that way. That's a forlorn 383 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: hope by a lot of my friends believe it. And I, however, 384 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: have been around this block now with trump Ism for 385 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: a little longer than I care to recount. 386 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: Nine years. 387 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, I don't have that same that sunny optimism 388 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: I once had as a younger man. 389 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 4: Is there anything you can do? I mean, obviously, in 390 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 4: twenty twelve, the thought was, Okay, we've been losing races. 391 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 4: We need to expand the party, we need to bring 392 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 4: new people. Turned out, that wasn't what happened, right Trump 393 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 4: came along the opposite way. Is there anything that people 394 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 4: like you or like whether that can do to Yeah, 395 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 4: you can't recreate it, But do you have to destroy 396 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 4: it the village in order to save it? 397 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 2: What are you gonna do? 398 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: I think the village is doing a pretty good job 399 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: destroying itself right now. It feels like a suicide pack 400 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: sometimes in the GOP that you look at these people 401 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: who do things they know are politically destructive. Mitch McConnell 402 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: right now could have come out of the Senate race 403 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: this year with a five or six seat majority. But 404 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: Donald Trump got to pick all of the nominees except 405 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: one guy, Dave McCormick, who just had so much money 406 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: he could do what he wanted. He is unlikely to 407 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: do that. He may get the majority, barely get the majority. 408 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 1: But this is not an easy, an easy skate for McConnell. 409 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: It's not going to be an easy win. And the 410 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: reason it's not going to be easy is because in 411 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: these swing states in particular, trump Ism does not sell 412 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: and it does not scale. 413 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 3: So Trump ism is built on a lot of things. 414 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 3: Essentral to it, I think are a set of conspiracy theories, 415 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 3: or at least misconceptions. 416 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: About how the world works and government works. 417 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 3: And that to a certain extent, Okay, you know you're 418 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 3: selling a product. I get that. But when you look 419 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: at some of where these conspiracy theories go and when 420 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 3: you take it to ultimate fool, it leads to violence 421 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 3: or can lead to violence. We saw that on this. 422 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 2: Yes January sixth, a perfect example exactly. 423 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 3: If you claim elections are not the way to settle 424 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 3: our political differences, there's really nothing left but violence as 425 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: an obvious answer. And it's not of both siders. Only 426 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 3: one side is doing this right. 427 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: There is only one side that believes that. And look, 428 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: we saw this at a rally this weekend, the Rod 429 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: of Iron rally, which combines Christian nationalism and gun fetishism 430 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: and fund at parties. And they were talking this weekend 431 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: a guy named Ivan Rylkin, who calls himself Trump's Secretary 432 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: of Retribution. They're talking about when does the reign of 433 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: fire begin? When do we get to start killing the 434 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: liberal shills, When do we get to make our vengeance 435 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 1: on the people that have tried to hurt Trump. And 436 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: the problem with rhetoric like that, and the problem with 437 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: folks like that is if they're denied the ability to 438 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: do that, if they're told no, this is up out 439 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 1: of bounds, and they still feel frustrated, and their leaders 440 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: still tell them, Oh, the other reason you can't do 441 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: this is because those liberal elites don't want you to 442 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: have power. They will start seeking that out. And we 443 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: saw it on January sixth. We've seen the outliers of 444 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: it with the Omar Sayak. We saw it with the 445 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: Tree of Life synagogue attack. We saw it with the 446 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: Walmart attack, where you've got these young kids who become 447 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: politically involved in the alt right and they go out 448 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: and they shoot people up because they believe that white 449 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 1: people are being replaced or globalism is causing the America 450 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: to fall apart, all of it based on lies and conspiracies, 451 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 1: but for people who are not paying attention, cults have 452 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: always been able to capture young men, particularly and activate 453 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: them for violence, and this behaves like a cult in 454 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. 455 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 3: In the nineteen sixties, of course, it was the left 456 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 3: that was doing this, the weather men and bombings and 457 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 3: so forth. 458 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: Look, we've seen the parties go through various phases like that. 459 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: But all of this is juiced by the existence now 460 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: of social media, of these online platforms, and that those 461 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: things reduce the friction of the activation of extremists, and 462 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: they feed them a curated version of the world that 463 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: lets those extremists feel like they're on a mission, that 464 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: they're doing the right thing, that without them playing the 465 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: role that they're the people handling them want them to play, 466 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: that the world will end. It's a very dangerous and 467 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: pernicious space. I worry a lot about our ability as 468 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: a society and a country to manage that risk. 469 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 4: Jerry and I are both on Ivan Ranklin's list. I'm 470 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 4: sure you are as well, and so it's really troubling. 471 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 4: And Jerry and I lived around the world. We live 472 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 4: for thirty some years overseas doing kind of things. And 473 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 4: there are country where there's incredible poverty, incredible civil war, 474 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 4: incredible oppression. But here we are the richest, most powerful 475 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 4: country in the history of the world. Our economy is 476 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 4: the best going on in the world right now, better 477 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 4: than China, better and everybody else. People aren't starving, but 478 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 4: people are so angry they're willing to burn it down, 479 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 4: like I don't get that piece of it again. 480 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: That is where I think the social media matrix grabs 481 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: these people and will not let them go, and it 482 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: tells them that we've reached the final extremity. Everything is 483 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: falling apart. The elites are so powerful, except you, soldier 484 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: of God, can go activate yourself and strike a blow 485 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: against the people that are trying to poison our blood 486 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: and soil, which I know, of course, sounds better in 487 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: the original German. But these techniques aren't new. The irony 488 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: is that, as you point out, they're happening in a 489 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: country that is profoundly wealthy, where we have the highest 490 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: standard of living in the history of mankind, and yet 491 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: people are told that their lives are a paragon of misery. 492 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: Is a really tough problem. 493 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: It's not just that we are coming up with these 494 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories ourselves. I think we are coming up mostly 495 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 3: with them, but they're being amplified by our adversaries as 496 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 3: a societal weakness, and mostly Russia, but around China and 497 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 3: so forth. You are a message guy, right. Your whole 498 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 3: thing is how to get to people and then get 499 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 3: through to them and I'm wondering, you're also seeing what 500 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 3: the Russians are doing. What grade would you give them? 501 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: I would say they are actually quite improved from twenty sixteen. 502 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: A lot of the stuff in twenty sixteen was a 503 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: little too lurid, a little too over the top, a 504 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: little too provably fucked up. And now it feels like 505 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: they're finding social divisions that they can exploit much more effectively, 506 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: because a lot of us, if they're exploiting, is real. 507 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: They're not just trying to tell Republicans, hey, you're being 508 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: taken advantage of my liberals or whatever. They're also targeting 509 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: black communities. Who are They're saying, the Americans hate you, 510 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: the police want. 511 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 2: To kill you. Why do you put up with this? 512 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: They're also targeting Hispanics now, saying that America wants to 513 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: deport you, they hate you, Why do they disrespect you? 514 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: They talk to them in the languages of their cultures. 515 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: I think they've gotten better at it. Some of it's 516 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: still pretty, you know, crude, but it's still it's just 517 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: because it's crude doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are 518 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: things about their communications apparatus that we don't understand the 519 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: scale of or how they're targeting. And we've got some 520 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: evidence of how they did it post Hawk from twenty 521 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty twenty, but not a ton and not 522 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: as much as I'd like to know to be able 523 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: to build a sort of profile of how to punch 524 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: back on it and how to push back on it, 525 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: because again, as a communicator, as a message guy, I 526 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: can write a lot of smart, beautiful messaging, but I 527 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: don't know that I'm hitting the targets with the ability 528 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: to have a counter veiling impact for what the bad 529 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: guys from overseas are doing. 530 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 4: Speaking of punch back from your past world working as 531 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 4: a strategist, why did Democrats seem so poor at developing 532 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: their own effective avenues of attack? And the follow up 533 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 4: is that do you think the Harris campaign is showing discipline? 534 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 4: Are they doing what you'd want them? 535 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: They are doing what I thought would be the correct 536 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 1: approach in this. They're quite assertively not taking Trump's bait. 537 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 1: They are in fact laying down bait of their own, 538 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: and He's taking it over and over again, which I 539 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: think is unique for my lifetime. We have not seen 540 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: that level of commitment by the Democrats to fighting the 541 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: real fight the number one thing a Democratic campaign would 542 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: have done prior to Biden. I think prior to Trump, 543 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: their first thing is we're going to set up a 544 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: big policy team. We're going to write this policy. We're 545 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 1: going to talk about all these things that are gonna 546 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 1: help us sell to America. And they didn't understand that 547 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: the elections in this country aren't about policy. They're about 548 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: personality and culture and connection. And I think she's doing 549 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: a much better job of being of being someone Americans 550 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: relate to and understand, of being someone Americans like. Those 551 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: things are not trivial in a national campaign, and I 552 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: have to salute her for very smartly handling a lot 553 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: of the aspects that could have been a negative for 554 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: her campaign if they'd follow the old rule book. 555 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: We'll be right back in a moment. 556 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 4: Now back to the conversation. 557 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 3: I have to say, some of the most effective messaging 558 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: out there that I've seen is the stuff from the 559 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 3: Lincoln Project. It's punchy when I watch these things. It's 560 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 3: the old Batman comic books. It's like wow zowie, like 561 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: the air bubble that comes in the speech bubble that 562 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 3: comes around it. Sure, so it's wondering what's your what's 563 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 3: the mission of the Lincoln Project? And where does it 564 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 3: go once the election ends? It's great, I love it. 565 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: Sadly, I think we're going to end up with seventy 566 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: six days between the election and certification that are as 567 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: risky as anything we've ever faced in this country. And 568 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: I wish I could tell everybody it's all going to 569 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: be fine. But we watched January sixth happen, and I 570 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: watched what they did last time, and this time they 571 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: have actual lawyers, not the four seasons total landscaping jokers. 572 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: They have real attorneys now, and that that should scare 573 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: the shit out of people. That is not a great 574 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: place to be right now. One of the things we're 575 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: useful as is one of somebody analogizes this once, so 576 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: they're like, you guys are like a seal team. You're assholes, 577 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: but sometimes we need the specific kind of asshole to 578 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: glow blow something up behind the enemy lines or do 579 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: something horrible. And I was like, yeah, I'll take it. 580 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: We're not the big army. We're not there to rebuild 581 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: the cities, we're not there to do all the traditional stuff, 582 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: but we are you know, we have a set of 583 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: skills to pull over some of these Republican voters and 584 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: convince them and some of these independent leaning conservatives and 585 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: convince them that the system that they've been playing in 586 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: is not a healthy one. Look, our goal is to 587 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: defeat Trump and trump Ism and preserve the republic. I 588 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: know that sounds high, Fallutin, but it has the advantage 589 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: or disadvantage of being true. We really believe the country's 590 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: in quite grave peril, and so what happens after he's defeated, 591 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: We'll see where it goes. But I think the preservation 592 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: of democracy and a constitutional republic it's a big deal, 593 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: because everything falls apart without that. Nothing works without having 594 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: the institutional and political infrastructure of an actual republic. You 595 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: can't pretend that in Russia people are billionaires because they 596 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: worked hard. They're billionaires because they played the ballgame and 597 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: Putin gave them the money or made them part of 598 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: his crime family. There are no situations and circumstances where 599 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: authoritarian regimes allow free markets or free individual expression, or 600 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: individual liberty or free expression. We see this risk is 601 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: going to last for some period of time. I don't 602 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: know how long. I would prefer it not be the 603 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: rest of my life. I'd like to be done with 604 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: this mission at some point. I've been on it for 605 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: nine years and I don't know how long you guys 606 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: would spend under cover, but you reach a point where 607 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: you're just like, my god, I'm exhausted. 608 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 4: I think you're trying to get people at the margins. 609 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 4: That's what politics is about. But the future is about 610 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: actually changing the minds of those people who are caught 611 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 4: deep in this thing. And it is not a thing 612 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: that's really important. Is Jerry and I grew up to institutions. 613 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 4: We were professional public servants, and Americans have forgotten from 614 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty years ago what the US government 615 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 4: was like. It was like these foreign governments was paid 616 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 4: to play and had to just pay for things, and 617 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 4: corruption and series of reforms over the years has created 618 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 4: a system where they call it the deep state. Is 619 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 4: a negative thing. But for most of this stuff, these 620 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 4: institutions are professional. People take it seriously, are working on 621 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 4: behalf of the state. They're trying to follow the rule 622 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 4: of law. And you know, the notion that you should 623 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 4: just throw these things away and life is going to 624 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 4: be good. I think a lot of people, if they 625 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 4: get their way are going to be really sad. 626 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think they would be shocked and 627 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: appalled and horrified at what the world looks like if 628 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: the Republican Party becomes the Bath Party. And think about it. 629 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: You had Saddam he ran for election every couple of 630 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: years and got one hundred and seventeen percent of the 631 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: voter or whatever it was, and people say, well, they 632 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 1: do have elections there. It may not be free, but 633 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: that's not the world people in America I think, could 634 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: ever truly adjust to. I think it would be much 635 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: more difficult than they believe to live in a world 636 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: like that. And God knows, I don't want to live 637 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: in a world like that. That's the last thing I 638 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: want to see for this country. 639 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Rick, I want to run with a really bad 640 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: Star Wars analogy. So I picture you as like Luke Skywalker, right, 641 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 3: Darth Vader would be Roger Stone. And I was wondering, 642 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: if you're standing across from Roger with a lightsaber, but 643 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 3: what would. 644 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: You talk to Roger Stone about. 645 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: Roger's from a generation actually almost two generations prior to 646 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: me in politics. But one thing I learned very quickly 647 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: in politics was that Roger Stone is ninety five percent 648 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: bush about Roger Stone. He's rarely actually involved in big 649 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: races or big consequential issues. He's an evil piece of shit. 650 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: He's a degenerate fop. He's a weirdo, bad actor, bad tattoo, 651 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: bad guy. But he has lived off of one small 652 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: boar scam after another his entire career, and he never 653 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: got big races and consequential assignments because he's just full 654 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: of shit. And look, everybody in politics has a bullshitting 655 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: gene in their body, but Roger is just bullshit. And 656 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: people always ask me, like, he says these things about you, 657 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: why don't you fight with him. I'm like, cause I 658 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: don't give a fuck, because Roger is inconsequential to me. 659 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: And in politics a lot of times, the people who 660 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: build up a legend, who build up their cover story 661 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: about who they are, and Roger Stone tells people, oh, 662 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: I aw, what dude, Nixon. Roger Stone was a fucking 663 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: intern for Nixon in seventy two. He was a sign 664 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: boy in Connecticut. He wasn't like a key player. He 665 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: like glombed on the Nixon much later in Nixon's life, 666 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: and it's just like, I don't take people like that 667 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: seriously because I come from a group and a world 668 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: and a cohort of like people who are serious fucking guys. 669 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: I don't look at people like Roger as somebody that 670 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: I'm scared of, or I don't even think of him 671 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: as like a serious person. He look, he's good at 672 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: threatening people. He plays his little like fuck around games 673 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: from time to time with people. And is that a superpower? 674 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: Eh? Maybe, but it's not one I particularly respect. No. 675 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 4: But that's the danger is magaism has has empowered these 676 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 4: kind of people. So this view that your enemy, your 677 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 4: real enemy, not just your political and other is the 678 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 4: other party, other American parties. Therefore, Russians are your friends 679 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 4: because they're helping you against your real enemy. You have 680 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 4: no soul and no values. Someone like Roger can be 681 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 4: the go between Russians, go between the proud boys, go 682 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 4: between these very dangerous people. And then when President of 683 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 4: the United States pardons him and has community now from 684 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. As stupid and awful as he is, 685 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 4: he could be a. 686 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 2: Real nasty one. 687 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: Look, I think as Steve Bannon as more of a 688 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: threat because he's an organized He's an organized psychopath and 689 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: Rogers a disorganized psychopath. 690 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 2: But yeah, the idea that. 691 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: These guys have in their heads is that the things 692 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: they couldn't earn in this world they're going to take 693 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: because they're going to be part of it. It's like 694 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: a Middle Eastern strip in the seventeen hundreds. They're going 695 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: to be with the guy, and they're going to be 696 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: his viziers and his advisors, and they'll make a world 697 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: on the back of having the ear of the king. 698 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: That still happens in this world. But there's also the 699 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: good guys have another benefit of this fight. These guys 700 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: are the most corrupt and backstabbing munch of people you'll 701 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: ever meet. Sure they may hate all of us who 702 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: believe in democracy and freedom, but they hate each other more. 703 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: It's fantastic. 704 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 4: That's what the Russians are trying to do is get 705 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 4: us to fight each other. Sure, we can then use 706 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 4: those skills to get them to fight each other inside 707 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 4: mega world to maybe that maybe that's. 708 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: I for the just for the Ukraine war really got hot, 709 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: or actually the day after they invaded, we ran an 710 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: ad on Spotnik and we put it up in Rush 711 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: in Moscow on a couple of digital platforms. It got 712 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: taken down almost immediately, but it was in Russian and 713 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: it was asking women in Russia are you going to 714 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: send your young man to die for this old man? 715 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 7: Puci Muljils And we got a friend of ours from that, 716 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 7: from y'all's former world who was like, please be fucking careful. 717 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: They'll kill you. 718 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 4: Luckily they have a lot of enemies before they get 719 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 4: to you. 720 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, that's that's the upside. 721 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 3: You've gotten a lot of headlines just off of what 722 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 3: you're saying and how you say it, and some of 723 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 3: the messages in there. I was wondering, do you have 724 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 3: like a greatest hits, like the top one or two 725 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 3: that the audience could go look. 726 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 2: At, here's the problem with this. 727 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: I've made something seven hundred ads in the last five years, 728 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 1: and there are some absolute home runs that I think 729 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: are super effective and that also have an emotional place 730 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: for me personally that. 731 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: Spoke to me. 732 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: There's an ad at the very end of the campaign 733 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 1: in twenty called One Day. Martin Sheen narrates it's about 734 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: it's a final motivation at don't get you got to 735 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 1: get out and vote. 736 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 8: Good morning today is the first day of the rest 737 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 8: of America's life. One day, one day that will, one 738 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 8: way or another, change how this country feels about itself. 739 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,760 Speaker 8: One last push to get the train back on its tracks. 740 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 8: One day that cannot wipe out the last nine months 741 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 8: or the last four years, but can clear a path 742 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 8: for a thousand better days ahead. One day America on 743 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 8: a tightrope. 744 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: Is that called girl in the mirror. 745 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 9: Imagine a young girl looking in the mirror, searching for 746 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 9: role models in the world to give her hope that 747 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 9: one day she too can make a difference. Now, imagine 748 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 9: how she feels when she watches women being verbally attacked. 749 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 2: What a stupid question in it? 750 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 5: But I watch you a lot, You ask a lot. 751 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 8: Of stupid questions, and I've got that loser who doesn't 752 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 8: have the energy. 753 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 2: Of a rabbit. 754 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 9: Blind. 755 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 8: There's something wrong with Kamala, and I just don't know 756 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 8: what it. 757 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: Is, but there is definitely something. 758 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,360 Speaker 3: Missing, belittled. I'm not thinking of it. 759 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 4: That's okay, I know you're not thinking. 760 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 2: You never do. 761 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 6: I'm sorry. 762 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 9: Now, imagine a different future for her, A future with 763 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 9: a president who looks like her, who sounds like her, 764 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 9: who shows her who she can grow up to be 765 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 9: if only she believes in herself a strong woman. 766 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: There there is an ad called Fellow Traveler that talked 767 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 1: about Trump and Russia. 768 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 6: Some of God Trump to these issues, not something God. 769 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: We had a series of ads about COVID that are heartbreakers. 770 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 4: Because of all we've done, the risk to the American 771 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 4: people remains very low. 772 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,719 Speaker 10: Fifteen within a couple of days is going to be 773 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 10: down too close to zero. 774 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: One day it's like a miracle. 775 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 4: It will disappear. 776 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 2: And this is their new hopes this year. 777 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: We've had some stuff that I think we ran and 778 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: now we just released the other day called Daisy, named 779 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: after the famous ad. But it's a story about a 780 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: girl who can't get care when she's pregnant, and it 781 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: runs backward from her death to her birth and talks 782 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: about why her father did this, chose Trump over her. 783 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 4: Just using your political sense of having been in this 784 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 4: field for a long time, what do you think about November. 785 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 2: I think she's going to win. 786 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: There are three scenarios for November. She's going to win 787 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: by a little She's going to win by an absolute 788 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: landslide wipeout, which tells me that the polling is as 789 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: wrong as we think it is, or he's going to 790 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: he's going to surprise us in three or four states 791 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: that we don't see coming. I think that's the lowest probability. 792 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,719 Speaker 1: I think a win is the highest. I think a 793 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: big win is a higher probability than Trump winning. But again, 794 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: as I said, my concern is not November fifth, it's 795 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: the seventy six days between November fifth and certification. That's 796 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: where the world. I think it's scary and weird and dangerous. 797 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: You must be right, because I agree with you. They're 798 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: gonna have to carry me out feet first on this one. 799 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: Apparently you know we hear these shows. 800 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 3: I say it's a privilege and a pleasure, but with you, 801 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 3: it really is a privilege. I watched your stuff, and 802 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 3: you're an impressive guy to an impressive one. 803 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I do appreciate that, I really do. 804 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,359 Speaker 10: We'll see you next time on Mission implausible and who 805 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 10: knows what the world will be like in a week. 806 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 10: We'll leave you now with the full add called Daisy 807 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 10: created by the Lincoln Project. 808 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 11: It didn't need to end this way, Dad, You were 809 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 11: so excited to be a grandfather when you walked me 810 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 11: down the aisle. Those were happy, tears, college, high school sports. 811 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 11: I could always count on you. 812 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 3: You are my. 813 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 11: Protector, my hero. You always made me feel safe, loved, 814 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 11: like I was the most important person in the world. 815 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 11: But it turned out he was more important. 816 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 3: The fact that I was able to terminate Roe v. 817 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,760 Speaker 4: Wade after fifty years of trying. 818 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 6: Each one of those abortion bands includes strict legal rules, 819 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 6: rules that are designed to be impossible to comply with. 820 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 6: How does a mother who is dying in a hospital 821 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 6: bed get to a courthouse to prove to a judge 822 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 6: that she's dying. 823 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 5: You will no longer be thinking about abortion. 824 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 11: You knew what he did. You knew his politics would 825 00:41:52,840 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 11: end my freedom, my rights, my wife. You chose hate 826 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 11: over me. 827 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 12: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'sha, John Cipher, 828 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 12: and Jonathan Stern. 829 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,720 Speaker 2: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 830 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 12: Mission Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable 831 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 12: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts.