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Speaker 1: You're listening to The Buck Sexton Show podcast, make sure

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Speaker 1: you subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app or

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Buck Sexton Show. Got our friend Josh

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Speaker 2: Hammer with us for this episode. He is a Newsweek

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Speaker 2: editor at large, he's a lawyer, and he's got a podcast,

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Speaker 2: the Josh Hammer Show, which you should catch whenever you

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Speaker 2: get a chance. And it is not called hammer Time,

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Speaker 2: despite my requests and my reverence for the great nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighties era music of mister Ramsey Hammer. But Josh it's

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Speaker 2: still an excellent podcast.

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Speaker 1: Buck. You know, you were one of our first ever guests.

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Speaker 1: You were literally like guest number three, four five, something

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Speaker 1: like that. So I appreciate the plug.

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Speaker 2: Brother.

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Speaker 1: It's good to see you as always.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you too, And obviously if you start out

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Speaker 2: so strong on a podcast like that, was such an

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Speaker 2: amazing guest, it's going to be the best going forward.

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Speaker 2: So I got a bunch of things ask you about

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Speaker 2: because you like to. You like to geek out about

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Speaker 2: the Constitution and about statutes about law. Right, that's fair

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Speaker 2: to say. I think I don't think i'm you're You're

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Speaker 2: a man, a man who likes to throw down on

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Speaker 2: this stuff. Let's start with the Supreme Court for a second.

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Speaker 2: I think that the Democrat media has been running I've

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Speaker 2: been seeing it like popping up on CNN, and they're

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Speaker 2: really going after Justice Thomas. And my sensus people on

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Speaker 2: the right have been pretty like not really paying that

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Speaker 2: much attention to this. It just hasn't hasn't crossed because

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Speaker 2: we don't see anything that's Justice Thomas is bad and

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Speaker 2: think it's all exciting. Let's start, because you've been running

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Speaker 2: about and pointing out that there's more. There's a more

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Speaker 2: full spectrum assault on the court happening right now the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court. But tell us what's going on with Justice

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Speaker 2: Thomas first. What they've been trying to do there?

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Speaker 1: All right, So it's starting like over a month ago,

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Speaker 1: so it was early April. The website pro Public, which

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Speaker 1: has won Politzer Prizes for investigative journalism whatever where Pulitzer

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Speaker 1: prize and journalism is worth or not worth these days.

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Speaker 1: So they start a series of hit pieces. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure hell to say that these are very

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Speaker 1: clearly hit pieces. They are clearly written, quote unquote investigated

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Speaker 1: with the intention of delegitimizing Justice Clarence Thomas, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, is not a particularly new tactic for the left.

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Speaker 1: I mean, going back to the early nineteen nineties, of course,

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Speaker 1: when Clarence Thomas was first nominated to the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: by then President George H. W. Bush, we had the

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Speaker 1: whole Anita Hill workplace harassment delegations that got so bad

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Speaker 1: that Clarence Thomas, who was then in his early forties,

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Speaker 1: sitting before then Senator Joe Biden sent Judiciary Committee hearing,

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Speaker 1: accused sen guiary Senate Judiciary Committee Democrats of trying to

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Speaker 1: engage in a quote, high tech lynching. So this is

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Speaker 1: nothing new for the left. They've literally been coming after

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Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas for over three decades. Now, you know, he

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Speaker 1: is the man right now that he was then, He

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Speaker 1: doesn't particularly care about these sort of attacks, but pro

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Speaker 1: public their first allegation was effectively that Justice Thomas is

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Speaker 1: two close friends with Harland Crowe. That literally is the

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Speaker 1: nature of the first allegation. So Harland Crowe was a Dallas,

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Speaker 1: Texas based billionaire, kind of real estate tycoon. He's a

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Speaker 1: well known generous donor and giver to various conservative and

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Speaker 1: Republican Party causes, which, by the way, that itself is

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Speaker 1: another thing the left has been trying to hit Clarence

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Speaker 1: Thomas over for decades. His wife, Ginny Thomas, is a

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Speaker 1: well known conservative activist, so they've said for a long

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Speaker 1: time he's too cozy with these sort of interests. So

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Speaker 1: this first Pro public apiece was that he's traveled with

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Speaker 1: Harlan crow what he's gone on cruises or the private

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Speaker 1: jets whatever, and the alleged that he should have disclosed it.

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Speaker 1: You know, James Taranto at the Wall Street Journal has

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Speaker 1: done a very good job of showing that no action

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Speaker 1: according to the on the Book's judicial ethics regulatory rules,

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Speaker 1: because we actually have laws about this, he was actually

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Speaker 1: not required to disclose would they say he should have disclosed?

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Speaker 1: And then just a couple of weeks ago, Pro Publica

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Speaker 1: had a follow up piece basically saying that Clarence Thomas's

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Speaker 1: adopted great nephew was going to get a free ride

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Speaker 1: again to Harland Crowe's generosity, because the Harland Crowe indirectly,

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Speaker 1: not roughtly, but indirectly paid for his adopted great nephew's

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Speaker 1: first year of tuition at a nice private School. So

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Speaker 1: that's the basic nature of the allegation against Clarence Thomas

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Speaker 1: is that he allegedly, again allegedly has not properly disclosed

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Speaker 1: the financial ties between him and a very well known

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Speaker 1: conservative donor, Harland Grew.

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Speaker 2: Now, why do they hate Justice Thomas so much? It

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Speaker 2: really does seem like he he gets more ferocious anger

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Speaker 2: from the left wing activists out there than any other

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Speaker 2: member of the court now that Scalia has passed away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean it's for

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Speaker 1: multiple reasons. Right. One is I mean, from a strictly

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Speaker 1: kind of legal, jurispidential perspective, there is no more doctrinaire

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Speaker 1: originalist than Clarence Thomas. I mean, you know, when it

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Speaker 1: comes to kind of the original public meaning of the Constitution,

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Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say Clarence Thomas is the

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Speaker 1: most about hardcore originalists on the core even when Scalia

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Speaker 1: was there. I mean, I would argue that Clarence Thomas was,

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Speaker 1: you know, more originalist for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: than Scalia. So he's very very very consistent, and he's

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Speaker 1: very very consistent in delivering outcomes that the left invariably hates.

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Speaker 1: I mean, whatever the case may be, whether it's same

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Speaker 1: sex marriage, whether it's abortion, affirmative action, kind of guns.

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Speaker 1: I mean, basically all of kind of the hot button

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Speaker 1: cultural issues. He has been on the opposite side of

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Speaker 1: the left, the mainstream media, the corporate interests, all that

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Speaker 1: stuff for literally over thirty years.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The slightly darker thing that's going on with Clarence Thomas

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Speaker 1: bu because, as I think you know all too well,

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Speaker 1: is we have this situation here where you have a

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Speaker 1: very conservative man who also happens to be a very

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Speaker 1: black man. Now, Clarence Thomas grew up dirt poor, dirt

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Speaker 1: poor in the Jim Crow South. English was not even

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Speaker 1: his first language growing up. There was actually a fabulous

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Speaker 1: documentary that came out around the time that COVID started

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. It was called Created Equals from Michael

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Speaker 1: Pack and Mark Poletta. Fabulous documentary. They go into depth

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Speaker 1: on Clarence thomas Is upbringing there in rural Georgia, and

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Speaker 1: you know, he really made it as kind of a

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Speaker 1: dirt poor black man who grew up in the Jim

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Speaker 1: Crow South and he became a very, very very committed

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Speaker 1: conservative and you know, similar to Thomas sole, similar to

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Speaker 1: Ben Carson, similar to some of these other very prominent

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Speaker 1: black conservatives, Larry Elder kind of in the radio space.

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Speaker 1: But Clarence Thomas probably gets it the worst of all

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Speaker 1: of them. And you know, I mean, he really has

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Speaker 1: kind of had this perpetual kind of Uncle Tom pejoratives

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Speaker 1: throwing his way for decades, and it's it's disgusting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is literally disgusting, but it kind of feeds this

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Speaker 1: narrative to kind of paraphrase something that if I recall,

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Speaker 1: Ben Carson said back when he ran for president in

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, he had some line about, you know,

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Speaker 1: uppity white liberals not letting blacks leave the proverbial plantation, right,

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Speaker 1: and like that is a slightly darker explanation as to

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Speaker 1: what's going on. Here's what I think. It's a combination

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Speaker 1: of both of those facts.

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Speaker 2: I want to get into more on what's going on

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Speaker 2: with the Court and what they're trying to do I

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Speaker 2: think too undermine it, politicize it, and we'll get to

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Speaker 2: that in a Second's Supreme Court Leaker. I want to

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Speaker 2: ask you about the Supreme Court leaker, and do you

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Speaker 2: think that they really don't know, or do they not.

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking for a while. The theory that I

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Speaker 2: have is I don't think they really want to know

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Speaker 2: because it just would create such a mess for them.

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Speaker 2: But we can get into that in just a second.

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Speaker 2: buck uh for first off, Just on the leak of

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court Dobbs opinion, Josh that for you. When

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Speaker 2: that came out, it seemed to me like we've entered

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Speaker 2: this era now where even the rules that we thought

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Speaker 2: both sides agreed on when it came to judiciary, or

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Speaker 2: at least that's that was our perception, those rules are

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Speaker 2: being wiped away too. Now we're just gonna leak Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court decisions before they happen to pressure justices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it kind of underscores one of the

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Speaker 1: greater recurring themes of the past six seven years or so,

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Speaker 1: which is it is the laft who has fried foul

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Speaker 1: time and time again about the rights reported undermining of

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Speaker 1: our norms and our decency obviously, former President Trump kind

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Speaker 1: of being at the epicenter of that alleged undermining of norms,

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Speaker 1: whereas in reality, in reality, you know, all the way

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Speaker 1: going back to the Women's March, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: violent protests in twenty seventeen, through the Black Lives Matter Antifa,

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Speaker 1: you know, quasi anarchy in the summer of twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: very much, including this league. It is time and time

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Speaker 1: again the left that is the one undermining these norms,

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Speaker 1: without which we cannot long sustain a civilization, to be

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Speaker 1: quite frank, and when it comes to the judiciary in particular,

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Speaker 1: you know, Buck, when I first saw this, I mean

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Speaker 1: I remember exactly where I was. It was May third,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. I could remember the exact date without

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Speaker 1: even looking it up, because I mean it was just

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Speaker 1: a shocking, shocking thing. I mean for someone like me

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Speaker 1: who went to law school, like clerks on a federal

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Speaker 1: Court of Appeals, the Fifth Circuit down in Dallas, Texas,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is unheard of. I mean, there is

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Speaker 1: no precedent whatsoever for this, and there's no precedent whatsoever

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Speaker 1: for this because the Supreme Court literally cannot function like

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Speaker 1: they actually cannot do their job in an environment where

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Speaker 1: their private deliberations, their private emails, their drafts. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how do these idiots think that a Supreme Court opinion

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Speaker 1: gets written. I mean, the justices are constantly trying to

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Speaker 1: persuade one another to massage the language. They need secrecy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the clerks need to know and the justices

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Speaker 1: need to know that those conversations are not going to

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Speaker 1: be leaked. They're not going to be subpoena or subject

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Speaker 1: to subpoena or anything like that. So, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: was a really, really, really big deal. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: I hate to say it, but my prediction about the

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Speaker 1: leaker being found, so I remember it was that night

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Speaker 1: or the day after I tweeted. I think it happened

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Speaker 1: like a Monday night. I tweeted, I bet we know

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Speaker 1: the leaker by Friday, and you know, geez, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, prediction that did not hold up well. But I,

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Speaker 1: for the life of me, just cannot believe that we

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Speaker 1: purportedly do not know the leaker to this day. And

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Speaker 1: I call BS. I just do not believe it. I truly,

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Speaker 1: earnestly do believe that at least one justice of one

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Speaker 1: justice knows, you have to assume all nine of them

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Speaker 1: know who the actual leaker was. So the Marshall of

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had that fairly brief I think it

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Speaker 1: was like two or three four page something conclusion back

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Speaker 1: in January. I think he was saying, we have not

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Speaker 1: identified the leaker. They had this report kind of a

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Speaker 1: fixed at the end by Michael Chertoff, the former Republican

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Speaker 1: DHS secretary, to try to give it kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: a basically just trying to do that to kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, hamp down conservative dissent. But I just don't

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Speaker 1: believe it, and I doubly don't believe it because Justice

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Speaker 1: sam Alito had this very very colorful recent interview with

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Speaker 1: James Taranto of the Wall Street Journal where he actually

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Speaker 1: told James Taranto, as a sitting Justice the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: told the Wall Street Journal op ed page editor, he

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Speaker 1: told him that he thought he knew who the leaker was,

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Speaker 1: he just didn't have the evidentiary threshold to go public

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Speaker 1: with it. And that is very massage language, even by

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Speaker 1: Justice Alito, because he wouldn't even say that. I think

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Speaker 1: if he was actually damn sure confidence and again then

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Speaker 1: if he's confident, then I think the court no. So

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Speaker 1: I call BS on the whole thing, and it's one

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Speaker 1: thing bug that myself and also our mutual friend Ben

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Speaker 1: weiningarn and we talked about this issue. I feel like

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Speaker 1: all the time on our knock On Squad podcast, which

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Speaker 1: we do every week. Ben and I are two of

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Speaker 1: the guys who are just beating the drum on this

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Speaker 1: because it is so important to get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of this. I mean, this leaker must be publicly identified,

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Speaker 1: publicly shamed, and reprimanded. I mean there have to be

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Speaker 1: serious repercussions for this.

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Speaker 2: This is also a moment in time where I feel

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Speaker 2: like I need to just think of all the possibilities here. Jeff,

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Speaker 2: do you think it's possible that it could have been

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Speaker 2: it would be a lib? And that's clear, and that

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Speaker 2: was clear to me from the beginning. Some people were

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Speaker 2: trying to say, we don't know, Yeah, it's someone who's

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Speaker 2: a lib. Is it definitely a staffer in your mind?

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Speaker 2: Or do you think that maybe one of the leftist

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Speaker 2: judges on the Court might have done this?

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Speaker 1: So my very first thought when this first happened last May,

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Speaker 1: over a year ago now, was that it was probably

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Speaker 1: a clerk from a bold Chambers, right, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: kind of standard guests, so Soto, Mayora, Kagan at that time, Briar.

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Speaker 1: So I remember at that time, Stephen Bryer was actually

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Speaker 1: about to retire, So some people kind of immediately said,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe he's going into yolo mode. You know,

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Speaker 1: I never really bought that, because you know, Briar was

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Speaker 1: on the court for thirty plus years, he was in

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Speaker 1: his eighties at Clinton appointing me, I mean fundamentally a

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Speaker 1: different era, right, I mean, he just kind of like

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Speaker 1: an older, kind of more statesmanlike liberal, not this kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, Sodo Mayora like liberal. But here's what

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Speaker 1: I will say. If it was a clerk, I think

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Speaker 1: there's probably a higher likelihood that they would not have

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Speaker 1: gone to these lengths to shield the identity. So I

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Speaker 1: actually genuinely do believe, especially after the Marshall's totally underwhelming

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Speaker 1: report came out back in January, and I doubly believe.

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Speaker 1: I think after this interview that that sam Alito gave

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Speaker 1: to James Tranto at the Wall Street Journal, I am

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Speaker 1: I am kind of coming to the conclusion personally that

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Speaker 1: I actually think it's it probably is a justice, and

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Speaker 1: that's not something that I would have said last May.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that they're going to such lengths to

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Speaker 1: try to bury this story, really it does kind of

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Speaker 1: make me think that it probably is Sonya, so to

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Speaker 1: my ore, And you know, I don't have a smoking

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Speaker 1: gun for that. I would be you know, remiss if

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Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I don't want to sound like,

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Speaker 1: you know, like tinfoil hat guy over here. But looking

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Speaker 1: just at where kind of the evidence is leading me

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Speaker 1: right now, again, I think if it was a clerk,

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Speaker 1: they probably would have just publicly identified the clerk, I mean,

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Speaker 1: but the fact that they're hiding it, I'm thinking it's

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Speaker 1: so my r.

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Speaker 2: Buck my My theory all along has been they don't

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Speaker 2: they don't want to know, and what we've seen more

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Speaker 2: recently I think goes right along with that. And I

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Speaker 2: appreciate that you're willing to even say who you think

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Speaker 2: it is. To me, it was it was likely to

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Speaker 2: be a justice all along here given this issue, right,

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Speaker 2: this isn't about eminent domain. Not that that's not important,

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Speaker 2: but that's not you know, people generally don't lose their

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Speaker 2: mind over that, right abortion. The left thinks that this

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Speaker 2: is really it's really the foundation of their immoral ethics.

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Speaker 2: I would argue that this is like the building block

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Speaker 2: for all of their demonic insanity. So in case that

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Speaker 2: is what I were I said on all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you about the affirmative action case

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Speaker 2: what Students for Fair Admission v. North Carolina and Students

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Speaker 2: for Fair Admission v. Harvard that's expected to come out

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Speaker 2: next month. Basically, for everybody watching this, if you've ever

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Speaker 2: felt like affirmative action, this is so obviously unconstitutional. How

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Speaker 2: the hell has this been able to go on as

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Speaker 2: long as it has in admissions and a whole range

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Speaker 2: of things. It might get a big loss, A big

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Speaker 2: l may be coming its way here soon. We'll talk

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Speaker 2: to Josh about it in just a second. But you know,

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Speaker 2: the economy is on the brink right now. For a

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Speaker 2: lot of people. Bank failures could happen anytime. They've already

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Speaker 2: happened some of them. It could be more. And who

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Speaker 2: knows what commercial real estate's going to lead to. We're

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Speaker 2: heading into a really rough patch here, I think on

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Speaker 2: the economy. So what are you going to do? I say,

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Speaker 2: prepare gold? What is the thing that has never been

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Speaker 2: worth zero. What is the thing that is a store

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Speaker 2: of value in the most turbulent times, not just the

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Speaker 2: American history, throughout all of history. Gold right now you

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Speaker 2: can take action and get some gold and some silver

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Speaker 2: also another very precious, important precious metal on hand. Get actual,

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Speaker 2: real physical gold and silver with the Oxford Gold Group.

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Speaker 2: You can also have it in your IRA or four

335
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Speaker 2: oh one K Gold is an easy portfolio protection plan

336
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Speaker 2: to get started with or to add to. If you've

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Speaker 2: already been doing this for a while. I've got gold

338
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Speaker 2: sitting right here with me in the studio. Call the

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Speaker 2: Oxford Gold Group today. Talk to them about what you're

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Speaker 2: looking to spend. Talked about your portfolio size. They want

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Speaker 2: long term gold buyers. They want people who are long

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Speaker 2: term customers, so that means they want you to feel

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Speaker 2: good about the position you're building up over time. But

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Speaker 2: you want to start now before the economy goes really

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Speaker 2: into a bad place. Gold prices are going to go

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Speaker 2: only in one direction. Call eight three to three four

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Speaker 2: zero four gold the Oxford Gold Group. Ask about free

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Speaker 2: bonus opportunities. You may be eligible for a three three

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Speaker 2: four zero four g l D students for fair admission

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Speaker 2: Josh are they going to prevail? What do you think

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Speaker 2: the justice count will be at the Supreme Court and

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Speaker 2: what will the effect be take it away.

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Speaker 1: Sir, Yeah, So there these are big cases. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, these affirmative action cases I think are by

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Speaker 1: far the most important cases, the juiciest cases, the sexiest cases.

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Speaker 1: You might say on the Supreme Court's docket this term.

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Speaker 1: You know, I would be remiss if I didn't point

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Speaker 1: out buck the intellectual godfather of these two cases was

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Speaker 1: someone who asked away recently, way way too young from

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Speaker 1: brain cancer, a brilliant former Clarence Thomas Claire by the

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Speaker 1: name of Will Consavoy. So you know, first of all,

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Speaker 1: it would be wonderful posthumous kind of vindication of Will Consvoy,

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Speaker 1: who I knew personally and was just an absolutely brilliant

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Speaker 1: legal mind if the Court does finally do away with

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Speaker 1: affirmative actions. So very brief history of affirmative action of

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. So, there was a case in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy eight out of California called Baki, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of the first time that the Supreme Court basically legit

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Speaker 1: demize the idea that despite the very clearly worded statue

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Speaker 1: that is a civil rights act which very clearly forbids

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Speaker 1: discrimination in higher education. That's Title six on the basi

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Speaker 1: of Ray. So Baki is the first time that the

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Speaker 1: Court basically said that no, you actually kind of sort

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Speaker 1: of can get around this with some kind of quota

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Speaker 1: style things. Infamously, in two thousand and three, two cases

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Speaker 1: out of the University of Michigan, one called Grutder, one

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Speaker 1: called Rats, the Supreme Court basically affirmed the basic holding

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Speaker 1: of Baki. They tweaked the formula a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: very bad ruling there. And the Court has punted multiple

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Speaker 1: times since then, including a case out of the University

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Speaker 1: of Texas called Fisher. They declined to overturn Grutder and Baki.

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Speaker 1: But I really do think this is the time. I

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Speaker 1: actually genuinely think that this actually is the time in

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Speaker 1: these cases out of Harvard and University North Carolina. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that you have both those cases, by the way,

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Speaker 1: so it's one public school, one private school. The basic

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Speaker 1: idea here is that the Constitution, the fourteenth Amendment, directly

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Speaker 1: applies to a public university because of public university is

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Speaker 1: a state actor, whereas the private university Harvard, you could

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Speaker 1: make an argument that's a state actor because they take

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Speaker 1: federal funds, but it's it's certainly covered by Title six,

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Speaker 1: the statutory hook of the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act.

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Speaker 1: So long story short. So the current court you have,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, people would say you have five

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Speaker 1: to six conservative justice depends how you want to count

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Speaker 1: John Roberts's. It's basically a three to three three court

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Speaker 1: where you have three solid liberals, you have three fairly

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Speaker 1: reliable conservatives Thomas Alito and I'll count Gorse that even

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Speaker 1: though that's a more complicated conversation. Then you have these

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Speaker 1: kind of three in the middle of Barrick, Havanaugh and Roberts.

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Speaker 1: So if you're starting to count votes, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of what you have to do to play this kind

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Speaker 1: of parlor game, I count six votes, honestly, and I

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Speaker 1: actually think that this is one issue. This is legitimately

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Speaker 1: maybe the only issue, literally the only jurisprudential issue that

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Speaker 1: I think John Roberts is probably actually solid on because

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Speaker 1: he's been solid on this issue going back to his

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Speaker 1: first years at the Court. In fact, John roberts is

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Speaker 1: most famous line that he has ever put into a

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court opinion probably comes from a two thousand and

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Speaker 1: seven case that Seattle, Washington called Parents Involved, where he

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Speaker 1: famously said, quote, the way to stop discrimination on the

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Speaker 1: basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis

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Speaker 1: of race. And you know, look, if you have Robberts,

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Speaker 1: then you clearly have the votes there, because there's no

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Speaker 1: way that Roberts would take that without everyone else falling

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Speaker 1: in line. So I am actually cautiously optimistic about the

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Speaker 1: last remaining actual form of systemic racism in America going

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Speaker 1: away next month. I really am.

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Speaker 2: What will it look like if the decision comes down.

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Speaker 2: Let's say it's a six y three or it doesn't

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Speaker 2: matter right five four six three. But if the decision

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Speaker 2: does overturn it, what will the implications be for schools?

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Speaker 2: Which school's private public? How do you think that breaks down?

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Speaker 1: So if you really get unc and Tarvard, then you're

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Speaker 1: gonna end up applying both the Constitution and the Civil

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Speaker 1: Rights Act. So you know, in theory Booth, those opinions

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Speaker 1: come out the right way. And by the way, Katanji

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Speaker 1: Brown Jackson. The reason that these cases are separate. In

430
00:21:09,457 --> 00:21:11,897
Speaker 1: addition to the public private things that Katanji Brown Jackson

431
00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:14,217
Speaker 1: has actually recused from the Harvard case because she was

432
00:21:14,257 --> 00:21:16,737
Speaker 1: on some or there ors on things. So you know,

433
00:21:16,977 --> 00:21:18,777
Speaker 1: my guest, formally, I guess would be six three in

434
00:21:18,777 --> 00:21:20,697
Speaker 1: the unc K six y two in the Harvard case

435
00:21:20,777 --> 00:21:24,817
Speaker 1: with Jackson recused. But you know, in theory, the consequences

436
00:21:24,857 --> 00:21:27,937
Speaker 1: should be pretty drastic. But I do you know, I

437
00:21:27,977 --> 00:21:29,977
Speaker 1: hate to sound kind of black built and pessimistic, but

438
00:21:30,017 --> 00:21:33,177
Speaker 1: I am saying in theory here because you know, I mean,

439
00:21:33,177 --> 00:21:35,177
Speaker 1: you and I know how these universities work, Buck. I mean,

440
00:21:35,177 --> 00:21:37,257
Speaker 1: there's a lot of kind of behind the scenes kind

441
00:21:37,297 --> 00:21:40,097
Speaker 1: of you know, you know, DEI bureaucrats who are still

442
00:21:40,177 --> 00:21:43,137
Speaker 1: kind of you know, the fox is running the hen house,

443
00:21:43,177 --> 00:21:46,217
Speaker 1: and you know, I think the conventional wisdom, which I

444
00:21:46,257 --> 00:21:49,217
Speaker 1: generally share, is that a lot of these emissions offices

445
00:21:49,297 --> 00:21:52,377
Speaker 1: will basically find a way to do it while trying

446
00:21:52,417 --> 00:21:54,377
Speaker 1: to hide the ball. So it will basically just kind

447
00:21:54,377 --> 00:21:58,297
Speaker 1: of give out offers people who are clearly underqualified while

448
00:21:58,977 --> 00:22:01,537
Speaker 1: basically making crap up. And you know, the question at

449
00:22:01,537 --> 00:22:04,257
Speaker 1: that point becomes, how do you police the making crap

450
00:22:04,377 --> 00:22:06,857
Speaker 1: up thing? And I don't know, I don't actually know

451
00:22:06,937 --> 00:22:09,297
Speaker 1: exactly what that would entail. I mean, at that point though,

452
00:22:09,337 --> 00:22:12,017
Speaker 1: it might be more of a state level issue. You know,

453
00:22:12,057 --> 00:22:14,257
Speaker 1: maybe some more states can kind of, you know, more

454
00:22:14,337 --> 00:22:17,737
Speaker 1: narrowly craft some very clever statues to kind of outlaw

455
00:22:17,817 --> 00:22:20,577
Speaker 1: specific practices, probably the kind of thing that here in

456
00:22:20,617 --> 00:22:22,897
Speaker 1: Florida around the santis and the Florida legislature might want

457
00:22:22,937 --> 00:22:24,857
Speaker 1: to take a look at next term if the form

458
00:22:24,897 --> 00:22:27,417
Speaker 1: anti faction cases do indeed go the way that I'm predicting,

459
00:22:27,897 --> 00:22:32,177
Speaker 1: but I totally totally anticipate that universities will do everything

460
00:22:32,177 --> 00:22:33,137
Speaker 1: they can to get around this.

461
00:22:34,057 --> 00:22:37,057
Speaker 2: Yeah, my sense is that they're getting rid of the

462
00:22:37,177 --> 00:22:40,377
Speaker 2: SAT for example, and a lot of supposedly lead schools.

463
00:22:41,537 --> 00:22:44,377
Speaker 2: Some people will still submit their SAT, of course, you know,

464
00:22:44,417 --> 00:22:48,337
Speaker 2: if you're you're an Asian kid, you know, Asian American kid,

465
00:22:48,657 --> 00:22:50,977
Speaker 2: you're going to submit your sixteen hundred SAT even if

466
00:22:50,977 --> 00:22:53,817
Speaker 2: it's not required. But by not making it required at

467
00:22:53,817 --> 00:22:57,217
Speaker 2: Columbia or Harvard or wherever they can, then it's hard.

468
00:22:57,377 --> 00:22:59,217
Speaker 2: It makes it easier to cover the tracks that the

469
00:22:59,217 --> 00:23:04,217
Speaker 2: continuation of the holistic you know, racial preference system that

470
00:23:04,257 --> 00:23:06,657
Speaker 2: they have, holistic in quotes that they have in place, right,

471
00:23:06,657 --> 00:23:08,737
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's how I think, because I know

472
00:23:08,817 --> 00:23:11,457
Speaker 2: this because I remember one of these decisions are the

473
00:23:11,497 --> 00:23:13,177
Speaker 2: earlier ones you mentioned, came down when I was at

474
00:23:13,217 --> 00:23:16,737
Speaker 2: Amherst and studying with your main man, Hadley Arcis. By

475
00:23:16,777 --> 00:23:19,897
Speaker 2: the way, what's up. Hadley sends high fives to everybody

476
00:23:19,897 --> 00:23:22,057
Speaker 2: out there for those of you know Hadley Arcus in

477
00:23:22,097 --> 00:23:25,897
Speaker 2: the house. But I remember the president of Amherst College

478
00:23:25,937 --> 00:23:28,377
Speaker 2: said at some big open forum on this, look, honestly,

479
00:23:28,417 --> 00:23:30,577
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says. We're gonna

480
00:23:30,617 --> 00:23:32,137
Speaker 2: keep taking who we want to take, and we'll get

481
00:23:32,137 --> 00:23:35,777
Speaker 2: around it. And I was I was like, wow, look

482
00:23:35,817 --> 00:23:38,897
Speaker 2: at that. Just imagine imagine the Supreme Court said you

483
00:23:38,937 --> 00:23:42,737
Speaker 2: can't discriminate against black and Latino students in admission, and

484
00:23:42,777 --> 00:23:44,737
Speaker 2: you had a president of a college come forward and say, well,

485
00:23:44,777 --> 00:23:46,097
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't care if the Supreme Court says

486
00:23:46,097 --> 00:23:48,657
Speaker 2: we're still gonna do that. He did that. He just

487
00:23:48,657 --> 00:23:51,857
Speaker 2: did it against other races, not those races. That's exactly

488
00:23:52,577 --> 00:23:55,057
Speaker 2: that was. That was actually, gosh, I can't render the

489
00:23:55,057 --> 00:23:58,457
Speaker 2: guy's name. We had a president Marx aptly named, I

490
00:23:58,537 --> 00:24:00,657
Speaker 2: might add, but then there was the one before him.

491
00:24:00,657 --> 00:24:03,617
Speaker 2: I can't even remember the president's name. Guy was a bureaucrat.

492
00:24:04,137 --> 00:24:06,257
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Trump and his legal woes. We're gonna

493
00:24:06,257 --> 00:24:10,057
Speaker 2: put you in the role of Trump legal advisor, maybe

494
00:24:10,217 --> 00:24:12,697
Speaker 2: even a Trump defense attorney here in a second, based

495
00:24:12,737 --> 00:24:15,537
Speaker 2: on what he's facing. So we'll get to that, But

496
00:24:15,617 --> 00:24:18,657
Speaker 2: first a word from responsor. The Tunnel Towers Foundation. Talented

497
00:24:18,657 --> 00:24:21,737
Speaker 2: Towers has been honoring America's heroes ever since the tragic

498
00:24:21,737 --> 00:24:24,257
Speaker 2: events of nine to eleven. The Foundation honors fallen and

499
00:24:24,257 --> 00:24:27,137
Speaker 2: severely injured heroes and their families with mortgage free homes.

500
00:24:27,457 --> 00:24:29,777
Speaker 2: This year alone, hundreds of gold star and fallen first

501
00:24:29,777 --> 00:24:32,777
Speaker 2: responder families with young children and our nation's most severely

502
00:24:32,817 --> 00:24:36,057
Speaker 2: injured veterans and first responders are receiving homes. More than

503
00:24:36,097 --> 00:24:38,937
Speaker 2: five hundred homeless veterans received housing and services last year

504
00:24:39,177 --> 00:24:41,657
Speaker 2: and more than fifteen hundred a receiving housing and services

505
00:24:41,697 --> 00:24:44,057
Speaker 2: this year. And this coming Memorial Day, all of the

506
00:24:44,097 --> 00:24:46,097
Speaker 2: brave men and women lost since nine to eleven in

507
00:24:46,137 --> 00:24:48,537
Speaker 2: the War on Terror are having their names read aloud

508
00:24:48,577 --> 00:24:51,577
Speaker 2: in a Tonented Tower ceremony in our nation's capital. Through

509
00:24:51,617 --> 00:24:53,737
Speaker 2: the Tunnel the Towers nine to eleven Institute, the foundation

510
00:24:53,857 --> 00:24:56,537
Speaker 2: is educating kids in kindergarten through twelfth grade, about our

511
00:24:56,577 --> 00:24:59,617
Speaker 2: nation's darkest day. Join Talented Towers on its mission to

512
00:24:59,657 --> 00:25:03,017
Speaker 2: do good, Please help America to never forget its greatest heroes.

513
00:25:03,337 --> 00:25:05,217
Speaker 2: Join me and donating eleven dollars a month the Talent

514
00:25:05,377 --> 00:25:07,777
Speaker 2: of Towers at T two T dot org. That's T

515
00:25:08,057 --> 00:25:14,817
Speaker 2: the number two T all right, Josh. Which additional, we

516
00:25:14,857 --> 00:25:18,297
Speaker 2: know that Trump just lost this civil case to you know,

517
00:25:18,337 --> 00:25:22,137
Speaker 2: Egene Carroll in New York. We know he's facing this

518
00:25:23,017 --> 00:25:27,697
Speaker 2: twenty some odd counts of felony like misspelling or whatever.

519
00:25:27,897 --> 00:25:31,137
Speaker 2: Basically that he's paying off the porn star with the

520
00:25:31,177 --> 00:25:34,817
Speaker 2: money that's in Manhattan. There's also Georgia, and there's a

521
00:25:34,817 --> 00:25:36,937
Speaker 2: Special Council, and maybe there's something else they're gonna throw

522
00:25:36,977 --> 00:25:39,977
Speaker 2: at us. We're not even thinking of right now. Which

523
00:25:40,017 --> 00:25:43,537
Speaker 2: of these are you the most certain is going to

524
00:25:43,657 --> 00:25:46,737
Speaker 2: be a problem for him? And do you think they're

525
00:25:46,737 --> 00:25:49,337
Speaker 2: going to go all the way on the Special Council

526
00:25:49,377 --> 00:25:52,497
Speaker 2: with the federal indictment from Jack Jack Smith?

527
00:25:54,097 --> 00:25:56,177
Speaker 1: I mean they definitely might. So. Look, I mean, I

528
00:25:56,217 --> 00:25:59,657
Speaker 1: think the conventional wisdom, which I probably share, is that

529
00:25:59,777 --> 00:26:03,577
Speaker 1: the classified document stuff, the infamous mar lagu rate last August,

530
00:26:04,337 --> 00:26:08,137
Speaker 1: I think that probably will not amount to anything. I mean,

531
00:26:08,177 --> 00:26:10,497
Speaker 1: it's kind of remarkable how quickly we've forgot in. But

532
00:26:10,577 --> 00:26:13,457
Speaker 1: I mean Joe Biden literally had his own classified documents

533
00:26:13,497 --> 00:26:16,577
Speaker 1: retention scandal. I mean it was just in January. Is

534
00:26:16,737 --> 00:26:19,337
Speaker 1: happened to be, you know, as many things in Biden

535
00:26:19,377 --> 00:26:21,777
Speaker 1: world are has happened to have some implications for the

536
00:26:21,857 --> 00:26:26,577
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party. So if I were the FEDS, I personally,

537
00:26:26,617 --> 00:26:29,377
Speaker 1: you know, if I if I were mister Smith as

538
00:26:29,377 --> 00:26:31,817
Speaker 1: a special prosecutor, I probably would be shying away a

539
00:26:31,857 --> 00:26:34,217
Speaker 1: little bit from that case, a little more towards the

540
00:26:34,297 --> 00:26:37,097
Speaker 1: January sixth case. But you know, here's why. And to

541
00:26:37,137 --> 00:26:39,457
Speaker 1: be clear, Buck, I think that the January six stuff is,

542
00:26:39,937 --> 00:26:43,217
Speaker 1: legally speaking, is beyond frivolous. You know, this notion that

543
00:26:43,297 --> 00:26:47,097
Speaker 1: he incited violence, let alone incited insurrection. I mean, there

544
00:26:47,137 --> 00:26:50,657
Speaker 1: is direct US Supreme Court case law on points here

545
00:26:50,697 --> 00:26:55,137
Speaker 1: from the nineteen sixties. The thresholds where you have where

546
00:26:55,177 --> 00:26:57,337
Speaker 1: you have speech that is not first memen protective that

547
00:26:57,417 --> 00:27:01,057
Speaker 1: actually results in incitement of violence, It is a very

548
00:27:01,217 --> 00:27:04,217
Speaker 1: very very high threshold. And I've read over what Donald

549
00:27:04,257 --> 00:27:07,097
Speaker 1: Trump said at the Ellipses and that infamous speech on

550
00:27:07,177 --> 00:27:09,577
Speaker 1: January six twenty twenty one, in my estimation, did not

551
00:27:09,577 --> 00:27:13,817
Speaker 1: come anywhere close to how the DC Municipal Code defines

552
00:27:13,897 --> 00:27:17,257
Speaker 1: incitement to violence. But having said that, you know, we're

553
00:27:17,297 --> 00:27:19,297
Speaker 1: not dealing here with people who are following the black

554
00:27:19,377 --> 00:27:21,537
Speaker 1: letter of the law. We're dealing with a situation where

555
00:27:21,537 --> 00:27:24,937
Speaker 1: they had this January sixth Special Committee kangaroo court with

556
00:27:24,977 --> 00:27:27,737
Speaker 1: Liz Cheney and Madden kinsing Jerrem the whole thing, you know,

557
00:27:27,777 --> 00:27:30,657
Speaker 1: I mean, fundamentally, they probably wouldn't have done that. They

558
00:27:30,697 --> 00:27:33,297
Speaker 1: wouldn't have issued their report to DJ the way that

559
00:27:33,337 --> 00:27:36,657
Speaker 1: they did, recommending charges if we didn't ultimately know that

560
00:27:36,697 --> 00:27:38,817
Speaker 1: the fix was in there. So I fear that the

561
00:27:38,857 --> 00:27:41,937
Speaker 1: fix probably is in when it comes to the January

562
00:27:41,977 --> 00:27:45,417
Speaker 1: sixth issue. But the other one that if I were

563
00:27:45,457 --> 00:27:48,737
Speaker 1: Trump's lawyer, that I would be most concerned about is Georgia.

564
00:27:48,857 --> 00:27:50,737
Speaker 1: And you know what happened in Georgia. Of course, there

565
00:27:50,737 --> 00:27:54,017
Speaker 1: was the infamous brat Raefinsburger phone calls. Trump says it

566
00:27:54,057 --> 00:27:56,097
Speaker 1: was the greatest, most perfect phone call of all time,

567
00:27:56,177 --> 00:27:58,657
Speaker 1: kind of similar to his twenty nineteen phone call with

568
00:27:58,737 --> 00:28:01,257
Speaker 1: Vladimir Zelenski, the one that they tried to impeach him

569
00:28:01,257 --> 00:28:04,777
Speaker 1: on frivolous grounds for the first time. But the Roethensburger

570
00:28:04,777 --> 00:28:08,017
Speaker 1: stuff in Georgia, I think if they have the audio

571
00:28:08,217 --> 00:28:10,377
Speaker 1: that we have not heard yet, but that there are

572
00:28:10,417 --> 00:28:14,137
Speaker 1: all these rumblings that they've heard, that's potentially looking very

573
00:28:14,257 --> 00:28:16,057
Speaker 1: very dicey. And I think a lot of people there

574
00:28:16,097 --> 00:28:18,217
Speaker 1: have already kind of agreed to immunity deals. But if

575
00:28:18,257 --> 00:28:21,497
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken there, that is typically kind of signs

576
00:28:21,017 --> 00:28:24,337
Speaker 1: that the prosecutorial apparatus is about to kick up into

577
00:28:24,417 --> 00:28:27,377
Speaker 1: very high gear. So you know, of those three cases

578
00:28:28,097 --> 00:28:31,177
Speaker 1: J six classify documents in Georgia, I would be least

579
00:28:31,217 --> 00:28:34,777
Speaker 1: concerned about the class by documents, but decently concerned about

580
00:28:34,777 --> 00:28:35,697
Speaker 1: the other two for sure.

581
00:28:36,617 --> 00:28:38,777
Speaker 2: Do you think that they intend to try to lock

582
00:28:38,817 --> 00:28:39,617
Speaker 2: Donald Trump up?

583
00:28:41,537 --> 00:28:45,177
Speaker 1: Yeah? I do. I mean, I absolutely do think that,

584
00:28:45,297 --> 00:28:49,897
Speaker 1: body do. I mean, yeah, I think that they're probably

585
00:28:49,937 --> 00:28:53,177
Speaker 1: I hate to sound like borderline conspiratorial, but you know,

586
00:28:53,217 --> 00:28:55,377
Speaker 1: I think we're only five ten years away from people

587
00:28:55,497 --> 00:28:57,697
Speaker 1: like you and me being in their crosshairs at being

588
00:28:57,777 --> 00:28:59,497
Speaker 1: locked up. I mean five to ten years. Maybe is

589
00:28:59,537 --> 00:29:02,297
Speaker 1: being a little too generous here, right, I mean, I

590
00:29:02,617 --> 00:29:05,377
Speaker 1: mean the stuff that you say on the radio every day,

591
00:29:05,377 --> 00:29:07,097
Speaker 1: the stuff that, like I write and say, I mean,

592
00:29:07,137 --> 00:29:09,217
Speaker 1: are we not kind of inciting like you know, all

593
00:29:09,217 --> 00:29:11,937
Speaker 1: sorts of fabricators charges. So I mean that basically, I

594
00:29:11,937 --> 00:29:14,097
Speaker 1: think is where we're headed. But Donald Trump is the

595
00:29:14,137 --> 00:29:15,617
Speaker 1: tip of the spear. So look, I mean, I have

596
00:29:15,737 --> 00:29:19,057
Speaker 1: definitely been critical of Donald Trump on any number of occasions.

597
00:29:19,097 --> 00:29:21,817
Speaker 1: But one thing where I think he actually is exactly

598
00:29:21,977 --> 00:29:24,377
Speaker 1: right is when he goes on social media and he

599
00:29:24,377 --> 00:29:27,457
Speaker 1: says to his most diehard supporters, they're coming after me

600
00:29:27,497 --> 00:29:29,257
Speaker 1: because they're eventually going to come after you. I think

601
00:29:29,257 --> 00:29:32,697
Speaker 1: that's actually exactly right. I think that that is you know,

602
00:29:32,697 --> 00:29:34,377
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it's sincere or cynical when he

603
00:29:34,417 --> 00:29:36,817
Speaker 1: says it subjectively, but as a matter of analysis, I

604
00:29:36,817 --> 00:29:39,177
Speaker 1: think it happens to be exactly right. So yeah, I

605
00:29:39,177 --> 00:29:41,937
Speaker 1: mean there's nothing that Merrick Garland and Joe Biden would

606
00:29:41,977 --> 00:29:44,697
Speaker 1: ultimately like more if they do when reelection twenty twenty

607
00:29:44,697 --> 00:29:47,577
Speaker 1: four and sending Donald Trump to prison, I think that's

608
00:29:47,617 --> 00:29:48,697
Speaker 1: absolutely the end game.

609
00:29:49,977 --> 00:29:54,057
Speaker 2: What is your what is the most interesting Supreme Court decision?

610
00:29:54,097 --> 00:29:56,337
Speaker 2: To you, it's like a trivia question to close us

611
00:29:56,337 --> 00:29:56,937
Speaker 2: out here.

612
00:30:00,537 --> 00:30:04,097
Speaker 1: The most the most interesting case of all time. Wow,

613
00:30:06,697 --> 00:30:09,177
Speaker 1: that's a tough one to be honest with you.

614
00:30:09,177 --> 00:30:11,417
Speaker 2: You can differ, well, we could bring you back. You

615
00:30:11,417 --> 00:30:13,857
Speaker 2: can tell us another time. I've never asked any of

616
00:30:13,937 --> 00:30:14,697
Speaker 2: that question before.

617
00:30:14,737 --> 00:30:16,537
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, look, I mean there's like a

618
00:30:16,537 --> 00:30:18,377
Speaker 1: few that come immediately to mine, right, I mean, you know,

619
00:30:18,377 --> 00:30:19,897
Speaker 1: the term interesting is kind of doing a lot of

620
00:30:19,937 --> 00:30:21,417
Speaker 1: work there. So I'm trying to like think of like

621
00:30:21,457 --> 00:30:23,497
Speaker 1: interesting fat patterns, whatever looks. I mean, like, there's a

622
00:30:23,537 --> 00:30:25,977
Speaker 1: case out of the late nineteen eighties called Morrison versus

623
00:30:25,977 --> 00:30:31,937
Speaker 1: Olsen pertaining to the constitutionality of an independent council. This

624
00:30:32,057 --> 00:30:34,777
Speaker 1: idea that you can not have a special counsel, but

625
00:30:34,817 --> 00:30:38,417
Speaker 1: an actual independent council, someone who is outside the chain

626
00:30:38,457 --> 00:30:41,537
Speaker 1: of command of the Department of Justice. And you know,

627
00:30:41,577 --> 00:30:44,177
Speaker 1: this became quite relevant ultimately in the nineteen nineties with

628
00:30:44,257 --> 00:30:47,097
Speaker 1: ken Starr and Whitewater and all that good stuff. Back

629
00:30:47,097 --> 00:30:49,377
Speaker 1: from my childhood before I was paying attention to any

630
00:30:49,417 --> 00:30:52,977
Speaker 1: of this sordid business. And in Morrison versus Olsen, the

631
00:30:53,017 --> 00:30:56,857
Speaker 1: court held eight to one actually that the independent Council

632
00:30:57,097 --> 00:31:01,337
Speaker 1: was constitutional, but in a dissent, a solo descent that

633
00:31:01,377 --> 00:31:05,457
Speaker 1: has been completely vindicated antonin Scalia, the late Great Justice

634
00:31:05,457 --> 00:31:09,737
Speaker 1: Anthony Scalia said that no, this actually is totally unconstitutional,

635
00:31:10,257 --> 00:31:14,537
Speaker 1: because you know, this is basically what conservative lawyers called

636
00:31:14,657 --> 00:31:18,217
Speaker 1: unitary executive theory, which is a very fancy, loyally term,

637
00:31:18,457 --> 00:31:22,217
Speaker 1: meaning that the commander in chief, the president has unilateral

638
00:31:22,297 --> 00:31:26,097
Speaker 1: pulinary authority over the executive branch, full stop, period, end

639
00:31:26,137 --> 00:31:30,297
Speaker 1: of story. And you know, ultimately the Independent Council phased

640
00:31:30,297 --> 00:31:32,617
Speaker 1: out that law was not renewed, and Scale is descent

641
00:31:33,017 --> 00:31:35,137
Speaker 1: is solo descent in an eight one case is now

642
00:31:35,177 --> 00:31:40,057
Speaker 1: basically universally viewed as correct across law school, academia, faculty lounges,

643
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Speaker 1: across the country. Now, why is that relevant? Why do

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Speaker 1: I say it's interesting because if you take that seriously,

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Speaker 1: if you take seriously the basic holding that the president

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Speaker 1: has unilateral authority over his entire executive branch, that makes

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Speaker 1: all the difference in the world when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the administrative state, when it comes to the deep state,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to kind of ferreting out all these

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Speaker 1: leftists whistleblower hacks deep in the bowels of the intelligence community.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's actually it's a very interesting opinion

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Speaker 1: because Scale is also just a wonderful writer, has deep,

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Speaker 1: deep real world implications in the twenty twenties as well.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to just let Josh Hammer do a constitutional

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Speaker 2: nerd flex there for everybody, and there we go or

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court slash constitutional flex. So well done, sir, impressive.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us, man. Go check out the

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Speaker 2: Josh Hammer Show podcast where he gets into a lot

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Speaker 2: of things we talked about today and a whole lot more,

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Speaker 2: and look for his latest at Newsweek, where he's been

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Speaker 2: writing lots of good stuff. Josh, Thanks so much, man,

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Speaker 2: any signed Bucky Bett