WEBVTT - Hell and Gone Murder Line: Caroline Glachan 0:00:46.480 --> 0:00:51.961 School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.361 case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite 0:00:55.401 --> 0:00:58.761 witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:02.961 be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights 0:01:03.001 --> 0:01:06.160 from family and community members, their statements should not be 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.961 considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts 0:01:10.041 --> 0:01:14.000 inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.160 presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. 0:01:17.961 --> 0:01:20.840 Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply 0:01:21.041 --> 0:01:23.601 that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime 0:01:24.121 --> 0:01:27.121 is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening. 0:01:29.721 --> 0:01:33.481 It was around midnight on Sunday, August twenty fifth, nineteen 0:01:33.561 --> 0:01:37.481 ninety six, and fourteen year old Caroline Glacken was out 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:42.360 walking along the River Leavin in Bonhill, Scotland. The river 0:01:42.721 --> 0:01:47.041 ran down a path separating two neighboring towns, Bonnhill and Brittain. 0:01:48.001 --> 0:01:51.081 This little river path was kind of a main thoroughfare. 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.121 Caroline took this path all the time and was very 0:01:54.121 --> 0:01:58.361 familiar with it. Caroline had spent the afternoon visiting friends. 0:01:59.041 --> 0:02:02.880 She was enjoying the long weekend because that Monday was 0:02:02.881 --> 0:02:06.281 a bank holiday, so Caroline and her friends were enjoying 0:02:06.361 --> 0:02:10.961 one last weekend of summer. At around ten ten pm, 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.641 Caroline stopped at home her mother, Margaret, and her mother's 0:02:14.641 --> 0:02:18.841 fiance Alan were heading out to dinner to celebrate Margaret's birthday, 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.401 according to the BBC program Crime Watch. After checking in 0:02:23.441 --> 0:02:26.401 with her mom, Caroline left her house to meet up 0:02:26.441 --> 0:02:30.361 with her best friend Joanne. On that night, Caroline had 0:02:30.401 --> 0:02:33.161 invited joe Anne and two other friends for a sleepover, 0:02:33.641 --> 0:02:37.881 but at some point her plans changed. At around eleven 0:02:38.001 --> 0:02:41.961 forty five, Caroline and joe Anne left another friend's flat. 0:02:42.121 --> 0:02:45.561 They started walking down to an area called the Ladytoon 0:02:45.641 --> 0:02:50.120 Shops in Bonhill. Joe Anne later told police that Caroline 0:02:50.121 --> 0:02:53.401 had a date. She was planning on meeting someone at midnight, 0:02:54.041 --> 0:02:56.761 so Caroline gave joe Anne the keys to her house 0:02:56.801 --> 0:03:00.441 so that Joanne could get in without her. Then Caroline 0:03:00.481 --> 0:03:03.761 ran into another acquaintance of hers named Alison Curly on 0:03:03.921 --> 0:03:07.201 the bond Hill side of the bridge. Alison told police 0:03:07.201 --> 0:03:09.401 that she and a friend of hers named James Doherty 0:03:09.841 --> 0:03:13.721 continued walking with Caroline down the road. Alison said that 0:03:13.761 --> 0:03:17.601 at some point she and James turned right, Caroline turned 0:03:17.721 --> 0:03:20.681 left to walk down the path called Dila ship Loane 0:03:20.761 --> 0:03:24.481 to meet her day after dark. There was no lighting there, 0:03:24.561 --> 0:03:28.681 so it got really dark down by the river. James 0:03:28.721 --> 0:03:31.281 told police that he offered to go with Caroline to 0:03:31.321 --> 0:03:34.201 meet the guy, but Caroline said not to worry, that 0:03:34.281 --> 0:03:37.841 she would be fine because she said her date was there. 0:03:39.401 --> 0:03:44.441 Caroline disappeared into the darkness. According to her mother, Margaret, 0:03:44.801 --> 0:03:48.721 Caroline's curfew was at two am, but Caroline never. 0:03:48.481 --> 0:03:49.041 Made it home. 0:03:49.961 --> 0:03:53.001 Margaret got home later. She told police that she waited 0:03:53.001 --> 0:03:56.601 a while, but then she fell asleep. At some point, 0:03:56.641 --> 0:04:00.201 she woke up and started calling Caroline's friends, but no 0:04:00.281 --> 0:04:03.761 one had seen her daughter. So Margaret called the police 0:04:04.321 --> 0:04:08.161 and they immediately started searching for Caroline. It didn't take 0:04:08.161 --> 0:04:12.281 them long to find her. Later that day, August twenty fifth, 0:04:12.441 --> 0:04:16.041 just after four pm, on her mother, Margaret's fortieth birthday, 0:04:16.801 --> 0:04:24.440 Caroline's body was found floating in the river leaving. I'm 0:04:24.521 --> 0:04:27.520 Catherine Townsend. Over the past seven years of making my 0:04:27.601 --> 0:04:30.840 true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I've learned that there is 0:04:30.921 --> 0:04:34.241 no such thing as a small town where murder never happens. 0:04:34.561 --> 0:04:37.400 I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the 0:04:37.401 --> 0:04:41.121 country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, 0:04:41.521 --> 0:04:45.520 their families, and their communities. If you have a case 0:04:45.521 --> 0:04:47.840 you'd like me and my team to look into, you 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:49.960 can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder 0:04:50.001 --> 0:04:53.681 line at six seven eight seven four four six one 0:04:53.801 --> 0:04:57.921 four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six 0:04:58.041 --> 0:05:01.041 one four five, or you can send us a message 0:05:01.081 --> 0:05:49.481 on Instagram at Helen gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. 0:05:50.161 --> 0:05:53.760 As police divers pulled Caroline's body from the river, her 0:05:53.881 --> 0:05:57.481 distraught mother and family were answering questions from police about 0:05:57.641 --> 0:06:01.361 who might have wanted to do this to her. Caroline 0:06:01.361 --> 0:06:05.320 grew up with her parents, William and Margaret Glackin. Later, 0:06:05.441 --> 0:06:08.681 Margaret testified in court that Caroline was her miracle child. 0:06:09.561 --> 0:06:13.241 Margaret said she had five miscarriages before they had Caroline, 0:06:13.601 --> 0:06:17.561 so Caroline was the light of her life. She told 0:06:17.721 --> 0:06:20.601 Crime Watch about how loving and affectionate her daughter was, 0:06:21.201 --> 0:06:24.681 and how even though Caroline was a teenager, she still 0:06:24.721 --> 0:06:29.561 had this naive, childlike side. William and Margaret had divorced, 0:06:29.961 --> 0:06:32.321 but from everything I've read, it seems as though they 0:06:32.441 --> 0:06:36.401 maintained an amicable co parenting relationship, and it seemed clear 0:06:36.641 --> 0:06:41.481 they both adored their only daughter. Margaret was the one 0:06:41.561 --> 0:06:45.681 who identified Caroline's body. Caroline's body was sent in for 0:06:45.681 --> 0:06:50.041 forensic testing, and testing showed that Caroline had been brutally beaten. 0:06:50.881 --> 0:06:54.361 Caroline's killer or killers had hit her at least ten 0:06:54.401 --> 0:06:58.401 times in the head, so hard that she suffered extreme 0:06:58.521 --> 0:07:03.561 fractures to the skull, and Caroline had no defensive injuries, 0:07:03.961 --> 0:07:06.281 which meant that she must have been taken by surprise. 0:07:07.281 --> 0:07:11.881 According to court documents, she lost consciousness fairly quickly. Doctor 0:07:11.961 --> 0:07:16.681 Marjorie Turner, a forensic pathologist, found that Caroline's injuries were 0:07:16.761 --> 0:07:20.561 quote probably inflicted with a blunt weapon, although there could 0:07:20.561 --> 0:07:24.841 have also been punches or kicks end quote. She stated 0:07:24.881 --> 0:07:28.641 that one injury above Caroline's ear had a curved laceration, 0:07:29.401 --> 0:07:31.721 suggesting that it had been caused by a weapon with 0:07:31.801 --> 0:07:34.801 a curved area to it, such as a hammer, But 0:07:34.881 --> 0:07:38.840 the actual cause of death was drowning, so Caroline's killer 0:07:38.961 --> 0:07:42.601 or killers had beaten her until she was unconscious and 0:07:42.681 --> 0:07:47.041 then left her the face down in the water. Forensic 0:07:47.081 --> 0:07:50.681 testing also revealed that no alcohol or drugs were found 0:07:50.681 --> 0:07:55.561 in Caroline system. Caroline's family was trying to process why 0:07:55.641 --> 0:07:59.041 somewhat possibly someone who lived in the small village where 0:07:59.081 --> 0:08:01.921 they had lived since her daughter was born would want 0:08:01.961 --> 0:08:05.721 to beat Caroline to death. Police were trying to find 0:08:05.761 --> 0:08:07.881 people who had been in the area at the time 0:08:07.921 --> 0:08:10.841 of the attack, and according to the Crime Watch show 0:08:10.841 --> 0:08:13.521 that aired in nineteen ninety six, one of the people 0:08:13.561 --> 0:08:16.961 they questioned was a taxi driver. The driver was going 0:08:17.001 --> 0:08:19.081 down the lane along the river next to the path 0:08:19.361 --> 0:08:22.881 and he saw Caroline in his headlights. Now at that time, 0:08:22.961 --> 0:08:26.601 the driver also noticed a young, clean shaven man wearing 0:08:26.601 --> 0:08:30.601 a dark colored hoodie who seemed to be following Caroline. 0:08:30.801 --> 0:08:34.361 Police also tried to find regulars to the area, including 0:08:34.401 --> 0:08:37.441 a white man described as being of stocky build, aged 0:08:37.441 --> 0:08:40.121 thirty to thirty five, with a mustache and a tan. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.240 According to Crime Watch, another potential lead came from an academy. 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.321 They said on the program two students had left the 0:08:48.361 --> 0:08:52.921 grounds of the academy after midnight. Police said they believed 0:08:52.961 --> 0:08:56.521 Caroline's killer knew the area and the dark pathway well, 0:08:57.241 --> 0:08:59.481 so they were also looking for anyone else who might 0:08:59.521 --> 0:09:04.920 have seen anything suspicious, including fishermen. Police were also trying 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.681 to nail down the time of death, because by the 0:09:07.721 --> 0:09:10.561 time they found Caroline's body, it had been in the 0:09:10.601 --> 0:09:15.121 water for several hours. Police were able to roughly estimate 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.401 the time of the attack to around twelve thirty am 0:09:18.001 --> 0:09:20.801 because they talked to several witnesses who heard screams at 0:09:20.801 --> 0:09:23.281 that time coming from the direction of the river, and 0:09:23.441 --> 0:09:26.841 one of those witnesses heard a female voice scream. I 0:09:26.881 --> 0:09:30.920 didn't say that. I didn't do that. So who was 0:09:30.961 --> 0:09:35.601 the source of the screen? Was that Caroline? Or could 0:09:35.721 --> 0:09:39.241 Caroline's killer have been a woman. The other thing that 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.841 police were working on was Caroline's plans for a midnight rendezvous. 0:09:43.721 --> 0:09:46.721 Allawann's best friend Joanne shed some light on the person 0:09:46.921 --> 0:09:49.800 who Caroline was planning on meeting at the black bridge 0:09:50.081 --> 0:09:54.081 that connected Bonhill and Rintain at midnight that night. Joe 0:09:54.121 --> 0:09:57.121 Anne said that Caroline's date that night was a local 0:09:57.161 --> 0:10:01.521 eighteen year old named Robbie O'Brien, but this information about 0:10:01.601 --> 0:10:05.881 Robbie did not come out until much later. So who 0:10:06.121 --> 0:10:08.721 was Robbie and what was the truth of his involvement 0:10:08.761 --> 0:10:13.321 with Caroline. According to court testimony, Caroline was infatuated with 0:10:13.401 --> 0:10:16.361 Robbie and They had gone out together to an Oasis 0:10:16.361 --> 0:10:21.481 concert just three weeks before Caroline's murder. But Robbie was 0:10:21.521 --> 0:10:25.361 from what a police investigator later called a notorious family 0:10:25.401 --> 0:10:28.761 in the area, meaning that people felt they would be 0:10:28.841 --> 0:10:33.561 threatened if they spoke out against these particular individuals. Robbie 0:10:33.561 --> 0:10:36.641 O'Brien was said to be involved in drugs. This was 0:10:36.681 --> 0:10:40.401 when the heroine epidemic was exploding in Scotland. This was 0:10:40.441 --> 0:10:42.681 back in the time of the movie Train Spotty in 0:10:42.721 --> 0:10:47.401 the nineties, and Robbie used heroin. Caroline's mother later told 0:10:47.401 --> 0:10:50.521 police she was afraid that he may have introduced Caroline 0:10:50.521 --> 0:10:54.761 to the drug as well. According to Joanne, she didn't 0:10:54.841 --> 0:10:57.841 like Caroline and Robbie's relationship. She thought that Robbie was 0:10:57.921 --> 0:11:01.561 trouble in more ways than one. For one thing, Joanne 0:11:01.601 --> 0:11:06.081 told police that she had personally witnessed Robbie assaulting Caroline. 0:11:06.201 --> 0:11:10.041 Caroline's mother and friends later testified they also believed that 0:11:10.121 --> 0:11:13.561 Robbie was violent and that he was bad news. So Caroline, 0:11:13.881 --> 0:11:16.201 like a lot of young women, would sneak out to 0:11:16.201 --> 0:11:19.881 meet him in secret. Normally they would meet at that 0:11:20.001 --> 0:11:24.401 bridge near the river. Another red flag was that Caroline 0:11:24.441 --> 0:11:28.041 wasn't the only young woman in Robbie's life, because Robbie 0:11:28.121 --> 0:11:31.081 already had a girlfriend, and at the time of the killing, 0:11:31.201 --> 0:11:40.401 his girlfriend, seventeen year old Donna Marie Brand, was pregnant. 0:11:45.161 --> 0:11:49.401 Very quickly after Caroline's death, the names of four teenagers 0:11:49.401 --> 0:11:52.001 were being talked about in the village as four people 0:11:52.121 --> 0:11:55.201 who may have been involved in Caroline's murder. It was 0:11:55.321 --> 0:11:59.041 Robbie O'Brien and his pregnant girlfriend, Donna Marie Brand, along 0:11:59.081 --> 0:12:02.761 with their friends Andrew Kelly and his girlfriend Sarah Jane O'Neill. 0:12:03.761 --> 0:12:06.721 Police did talk to all four of these teens and 0:12:06.761 --> 0:12:09.801 they all said that they had an alibi. They said 0:12:09.881 --> 0:12:12.201 they all spent the night at a woman named Betty 0:12:12.241 --> 0:12:16.881 Wilson's flat at twelve Alan Crescent. The couple Andrew Kelly 0:12:16.921 --> 0:12:20.281 and Sarah Jane O'Neill were babysitting two young children there. 0:12:21.081 --> 0:12:24.281 Robbie and Donna came over. They all stayed overnight, and 0:12:24.361 --> 0:12:27.001 Betty didn't come home until around ten or eleven the 0:12:27.001 --> 0:12:30.881 next morning. Because of that alibi, it seems as though 0:12:30.921 --> 0:12:34.800 police ruled out Robbie and his friends early on, and 0:12:34.841 --> 0:12:37.441 the four of them stuck to that story. For decades. 0:12:38.801 --> 0:12:42.241 Over the years the case went cold, police made public 0:12:42.241 --> 0:12:46.401 appeals for information. In twenty sixteen, the BBC's Crime Watch 0:12:46.441 --> 0:12:50.201 program did a second episode about this case with re enactments, 0:12:51.121 --> 0:12:54.521 but in that show and in most media since Caroline's murder, 0:12:55.001 --> 0:12:58.761 no one ever mentioned Robbie or his friends. Instead, media 0:12:58.881 --> 0:13:02.080 liked the Crime Watch program focused on other leads, including 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.361 the sketch of the man in the hoodie. But in 0:13:05.361 --> 0:13:10.841 twenty nineteen everything changed, because that's when the Scottish Police 0:13:10.881 --> 0:13:15.001 Major Investigation Team started their own investigation into the case. 0:13:15.961 --> 0:13:19.680 Their investigation was documented in a BBC series called Murder 0:13:19.721 --> 0:13:24.441 Trial Girl in the River. The senior investigating officer, Detective 0:13:24.441 --> 0:13:28.441 Inspector Stuart Granger, said in that program that they had 0:13:28.481 --> 0:13:33.961 no physical evidence, no CCTV and no digital trail. Remember 0:13:34.201 --> 0:13:37.280 this was in the pre cell phone age, so they 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:41.121 could not check those type of phone records. Police didn't 0:13:41.161 --> 0:13:43.361 know a lot of basic facts about this case. They 0:13:43.401 --> 0:13:45.801 didn't know if there was one killer or more than one. 0:13:46.521 --> 0:13:49.481 They didn't even have a murder weapon. So they did 0:13:49.561 --> 0:13:53.481 something that I've said before when doing this podcast. Normally 0:13:53.721 --> 0:13:57.281 time is the enemy of cold case detectives, but sometimes 0:13:57.481 --> 0:14:00.041 time can be an asset, and it seems like the 0:14:00.081 --> 0:14:03.481 investigators in this case figured that out because a lot 0:14:03.521 --> 0:14:06.040 of people who were teenagers at the time this happened, 0:14:06.441 --> 0:14:09.241 or who may have been afraid of retaliation from certain 0:14:09.241 --> 0:14:12.481 people or certain families, now had grown up. They had 0:14:12.561 --> 0:14:15.721 children of their own, and they could better empathize with 0:14:15.801 --> 0:14:20.521 Caroline's parents. Police took another look at the original investigation 0:14:20.801 --> 0:14:23.561 and something else jumped out of them. A witness statement 0:14:23.721 --> 0:14:27.441 taken right after Caroline's murder by a potential witness who 0:14:27.521 --> 0:14:30.521 was just four years old at the time. His name 0:14:30.601 --> 0:14:33.281 was Archie Wilson. He was the son of Betty Wilson, 0:14:33.441 --> 0:14:36.321 whose flat the four teens claimed they were staying at 0:14:36.441 --> 0:14:39.801 all night on the night of the murder. On that night, 0:14:40.081 --> 0:14:43.241 August twenty fourth into August twenty fifth, four year old 0:14:43.361 --> 0:14:46.121 Archie and his two year old brother Jamie were at home. 0:14:46.841 --> 0:14:50.681 Andrew and his three friends Robbie, Donna, and Sarah came over. 0:14:51.681 --> 0:14:54.441 When Archie's mother, Betty got back home the next day 0:14:54.481 --> 0:14:57.681 at around ten or eleven am, she saw something strange. 0:14:58.241 --> 0:15:01.161 Andrew had his pants off and was drying them by 0:15:01.201 --> 0:15:04.441 the fire, and there was also a large wet patch 0:15:04.481 --> 0:15:08.241 on their carpet. She later testified the carpet was soaked. 0:15:09.321 --> 0:15:12.721 Andrew told Betty that the carpet was wet because Archie 0:15:12.761 --> 0:15:16.081 had urinated on him and on the carpet, but Archie 0:15:16.081 --> 0:15:20.121 told his mother that wasn't true, and Archie said something 0:15:20.201 --> 0:15:23.561 else about what had happened the night before. Archie told 0:15:23.561 --> 0:15:26.841 his mother and her sister Daisy that Robbie and Donna 0:15:27.121 --> 0:15:29.321 had been in the home with Andrew and Sarah Jane, 0:15:29.801 --> 0:15:32.281 and that Archie had been down at the leven with 0:15:32.401 --> 0:15:36.841 the fourteens. He said that Robbie, Donna, Andrew and Sarah 0:15:36.921 --> 0:15:40.201 had been fighting a lassie, Scottish slang for young women, 0:15:40.641 --> 0:15:42.961 and that the young woman had ended up in the water. 0:15:43.961 --> 0:15:47.241 He also told his mother and Daisy that the young 0:15:47.281 --> 0:15:51.161 woman had been hit on the head. Later, at Archie's 0:15:51.201 --> 0:15:55.401 aunt's house, Archie told the story again, saying that Robbie 0:15:55.441 --> 0:15:58.321 was wet, had been fighting a girl and had pushed 0:15:58.321 --> 0:16:02.041 her into the water. Archie talked to police on August 0:16:02.081 --> 0:16:04.961 twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six. He told them that he 0:16:05.001 --> 0:16:08.840 saw Andrew throwing boulders at the young woman, meaning Caroline, 0:16:09.241 --> 0:16:13.041 that somebody died, and that one of the young men 0:16:13.081 --> 0:16:16.161 also fell into the river. He said that was the 0:16:16.201 --> 0:16:20.961 reason why the carpet had a wet patch. Archie told 0:16:21.001 --> 0:16:24.441 police that Robbie, Donna, Sarah, and Andrew were all at 0:16:24.441 --> 0:16:27.001 the river when Caroline was in the water, that he 0:16:27.121 --> 0:16:30.041 saw Robbie hitting her with a stick and a metal pole, 0:16:30.401 --> 0:16:33.921 and that Robbie pushed her into the water. Police did 0:16:33.961 --> 0:16:37.761 another interview with Archie, this time on video. The second 0:16:37.841 --> 0:16:41.761 interview was done a month after Caroline's death, but back 0:16:41.801 --> 0:16:45.561 then Archie's stories were over looked by police. I'm not 0:16:45.641 --> 0:16:49.041 sure why. The police who spoke to the BBC years 0:16:49.081 --> 0:16:51.801 later said that there were a lot of rumors floating 0:16:51.841 --> 0:16:54.681 around at the time of the murder. It seems as 0:16:54.721 --> 0:16:58.241 though in all this chaos, the little boy's story was ignored. 0:16:58.921 --> 0:17:02.401 And it's also possible police dismissed his accounts because of 0:17:02.401 --> 0:17:06.041 his age, or that they simply didn't realize the significance. 0:17:07.120 --> 0:17:12.321 But during the twenty nineteen investigation that all changed. Police 0:17:12.481 --> 0:17:17.120 figured out something crucial the timeline. Archie had talked to 0:17:17.161 --> 0:17:20.801 police on August twenty sixth, but first told his story 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.600 to his mom and others on August twenty fifth. Archie 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.480 told his mother about something happening to Caroline at lunchtime 0:17:28.681 --> 0:17:32.080 on Sunday the twenty fifth, but Caroline's body was not 0:17:32.201 --> 0:17:37.120 found until hours later, after four pm. So how would 0:17:37.120 --> 0:17:40.561 he have known something happened to Caroline and so many 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.281 details about her eye injury unless he had been there. 0:17:46.161 --> 0:17:50.321 In twenty nineteen, police believed it was very possible that 0:17:50.521 --> 0:17:54.881 Archie had witnessed Caroline's murder, but Archie wasn't taken seriously 0:17:55.121 --> 0:17:58.921 because the fourteens stuck to their alibi and Archie had 0:17:58.921 --> 0:18:01.801 been a small child at the time. Was it really 0:18:01.881 --> 0:18:05.721 possible that not one but four killers had gotten away 0:18:05.801 --> 0:18:10.440 for almost thirty years. But police needed more than Archie's story. 0:18:11.121 --> 0:18:14.840 They needed to crack Robbie and his friend's airtight alibi. 0:18:15.921 --> 0:18:17.880 So they went back. They went door to door. They 0:18:18.001 --> 0:18:21.561 questioned everyone again, even people who had been children at 0:18:21.561 --> 0:18:24.521 the time of the murder, and that's when they found 0:18:24.601 --> 0:18:29.160 one of Betty Wilson's upstairs neighbors, Linda Dorian, someone who 0:18:29.321 --> 0:18:32.001 had given a statement to police in nineteen ninety six, 0:18:32.481 --> 0:18:35.721 but apparently police back then only spent a few minutes 0:18:35.761 --> 0:18:41.001 talking to her. In twenty nineteen, Linda told police She 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.641 had been at home on August twenty fifth, nineteen ninety six, 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.441 with her ten year old daughter Emma. She remembered that 0:18:47.521 --> 0:18:50.200 it was around midnight because she was planning on watching 0:18:50.201 --> 0:18:52.600 a movie on Sky that came on at that time. 0:18:53.441 --> 0:18:56.561 She told police that shortly before the movie started, she 0:18:56.761 --> 0:19:00.201 heard a door opening downstairs and looked out onto the street. 0:19:01.241 --> 0:19:04.881 Linda said that she saw four teenagers who she recognized 0:19:04.921 --> 0:19:09.241 as Andrew and his friends Sarah, Robbie and Donna, leaving 0:19:09.401 --> 0:19:13.801 Betty Wilson's flat, and she saw something odd at that 0:19:14.001 --> 0:19:17.080 time of night. The fourteens had two year old Jamie 0:19:17.121 --> 0:19:19.961 inside a stroller and four year old Archie holding onto 0:19:19.961 --> 0:19:22.921 the handle. She saw the four teens and the two 0:19:22.961 --> 0:19:26.001 young children walk down in cross Main Street in the 0:19:26.041 --> 0:19:29.801 direction of the River Leavin. This was the first time 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.001 that police were able to find any kind of a 0:19:32.041 --> 0:19:36.001 weakness with the alibi and evidence that the four teens 0:19:36.041 --> 0:19:38.440 were not at Betty Wilson's home all night as they 0:19:38.441 --> 0:19:42.801 had claimed. Linda said that she saw Sarah, Robbie, Andrew 0:19:42.881 --> 0:19:46.001 and Donna and the two children all come back to 0:19:46.041 --> 0:19:48.481 the Wilson flat about forty minutes to an hour after 0:19:48.561 --> 0:19:51.481 they left, and when they did, she said they were 0:19:51.521 --> 0:19:55.761 in highly emotional states. She said she heard a commotion downstairs, 0:19:55.921 --> 0:19:59.120 a door slamming and shouting. Linda said that Sarah in 0:19:59.161 --> 0:20:02.281 particular seemed super upset and was yelling, you're a prick, 0:20:02.441 --> 0:20:05.401 You're a dick. She said that Sarah and Donna were 0:20:05.441 --> 0:20:09.481 both wailing and that Sarah shouted quote that wasn't meant 0:20:09.521 --> 0:20:11.321 to happen, that was out of order, that was a 0:20:11.361 --> 0:20:16.001 setup end quote, and Linda said that she heard other 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.361 voices talking about being quiet because of the children. When 0:20:20.441 --> 0:20:24.281 the BBC asked police why they didn't follow this line 0:20:24.321 --> 0:20:28.161 of investigation in nineteen ninety six, the senior officer said 0:20:28.161 --> 0:20:31.681 that quote it appeared that the relevant questions were simply 0:20:31.881 --> 0:20:32.481 not asked. 0:20:33.281 --> 0:20:34.561 End quote. 0:20:34.601 --> 0:20:37.961 In court, it came out that the initial officers had 0:20:37.961 --> 0:20:41.001 only spent a few minutes with Linda and asked very 0:20:41.041 --> 0:20:44.721 basic questions of her and her neighbors, and then they 0:20:44.801 --> 0:20:48.801 never came back. One of the investigators stated one of 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:52.080 the issues with this investigation was the fact that several 0:20:52.121 --> 0:20:55.641 potential witnesses were criminals themselves and that it was hard 0:20:55.641 --> 0:20:59.281 to find them. Also, some were involved in drugs or 0:20:59.321 --> 0:21:02.001 other things, and they did not want to draw attention 0:21:02.041 --> 0:21:06.241 to themselves. With law enforcement working on this podcast, I've 0:21:06.321 --> 0:21:09.841 found this is a global problem. This is a challenge 0:21:09.881 --> 0:21:13.281 in small towns around the world. By the way, this 0:21:13.401 --> 0:21:16.761 doesn't apply to Linda and her neighbors. That was, in 0:21:16.801 --> 0:21:19.841 my opinion, more a case of police doing these very 0:21:19.881 --> 0:21:24.400 perfunctory interviews and not asking more in depth questions, something 0:21:24.401 --> 0:21:28.001 that I have sadly seen far too often in investigations 0:21:28.041 --> 0:21:33.041 as well. It's interesting because this case is thousands of 0:21:33.121 --> 0:21:35.201 miles from a lot of the cases that I cover, 0:21:35.801 --> 0:21:38.880 but I see so many parallels other investigations that we 0:21:38.921 --> 0:21:43.321 have covered in this podcast. Often, in my opinion, police 0:21:43.401 --> 0:21:47.281 tend to rule out testimony from anyone who was using drugs, which, 0:21:47.321 --> 0:21:49.721 to be honest, can rule out a lot of people. 0:21:56.161 --> 0:21:59.481 Another factor that stopped people from speaking out may have 0:21:59.561 --> 0:22:04.120 been fear of Robbie O'Brien and his family. Specifically, the 0:22:04.161 --> 0:22:07.801 senior officer said in court quote Robbie O'Brien was from 0:22:07.801 --> 0:22:10.521 a particular family in that area, a family who had 0:22:10.601 --> 0:22:13.161 quite a lot of control, and there was a certain 0:22:13.201 --> 0:22:14.921 element of you don't want to. 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:16.361 Speak out end quote. 0:22:17.121 --> 0:22:20.921 In twenty nineteen, the investigators were also trying to get 0:22:20.961 --> 0:22:26.201 more information on Robbie's relationship with Caroline. According to court documents, 0:22:26.601 --> 0:22:30.961 Caroline's best friend, Joanne, told police that Robbie had told 0:22:30.961 --> 0:22:33.721 Caroline he would kill her if she kissed someone else. 0:22:34.601 --> 0:22:38.160 Joanne said she personally had seen Robbie attempt to attack 0:22:38.201 --> 0:22:41.761 Caroline on numerous occasions and that she had actually intervened 0:22:41.801 --> 0:22:44.360 in at least one of those attacks, and there was 0:22:44.401 --> 0:22:48.481 something else that could hint at a potential motive. Two 0:22:48.561 --> 0:22:52.160 weeks before she died, Caroline told a friend that she 0:22:52.201 --> 0:22:55.080 had taken a pregnancy test and that it was positive 0:22:56.601 --> 0:23:06.041 and that Robbie O'Brien was the father. Two weeks before 0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.201 her death, Caroline told a friend of hers named Tracy 0:23:09.281 --> 0:23:12.321 McFetridge that she had had a positive pregnancy test and 0:23:12.401 --> 0:23:15.880 she thought Robbie was the father. Now, there was no 0:23:16.001 --> 0:23:20.001 pregnancy reported on the post mortem examination of Caroline, but 0:23:20.121 --> 0:23:23.080 investigators think it's very possible that at the time of 0:23:23.080 --> 0:23:27.721 the murder, Caroline believed that she was pregnant, and reading 0:23:27.761 --> 0:23:31.120 through these statements, it seems as though the relationship between 0:23:31.201 --> 0:23:33.881 Robbie and Caroline seemed to be becoming more and more 0:23:33.921 --> 0:23:38.761 confrontational and could have been headed for disaster. Tracy told 0:23:38.801 --> 0:23:43.120 police during the early investigation that Robbie's girlfriend, Donna knew 0:23:43.161 --> 0:23:45.721 that he had been seeing Caroline, and that Donna had 0:23:45.721 --> 0:23:49.161 told Tracy and Sarah Jane O'Neill that she was going 0:23:49.201 --> 0:23:54.041 to batter Caroline. Derek Hunner, a cousin of Caroline's, told 0:23:54.041 --> 0:23:57.401 police that Caroline wrote a letter to Robbie asking him 0:23:57.441 --> 0:24:00.041 to stay at her house on Saturday night, and that 0:24:00.121 --> 0:24:04.321 Caroline's mother, Margaret, had found another letter between Caroline and Robbie. 0:24:05.121 --> 0:24:09.001 According to court documents, Margaret was concerned about the relationship 0:24:09.001 --> 0:24:12.041 between Robbie and her daughter. She stated to police that 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:15.481 Caroline was infatuated with Robbie and that she believed he 0:24:15.481 --> 0:24:21.081 had given Caroline heroin. The prosecution and police finally believed 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:24.561 they had enough evidence to bring charges. In November of 0:24:24.601 --> 0:24:28.721 twenty twenty one, three suspects, Robbie O'Brien, Donna, Marie Brand, 0:24:28.761 --> 0:24:32.160 and Andrew Kelly were arrested in charge with Caroline's murder. 0:24:33.001 --> 0:24:35.920 Sarah Jane O'Neill would have been charged as well, according 0:24:35.961 --> 0:24:40.481 to prosecutors, but she died in July twenty nineteen. Their 0:24:40.521 --> 0:24:44.360 trial began in late twenty twenty three in Glasgow High Court. 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:48.361 All three of the accused killers were now in their forties. 0:24:49.201 --> 0:24:52.440 In the years since nineteen ninety six, Robbie O'Brien had 0:24:52.441 --> 0:24:55.880 spent time behind bars four drug charges, but also from 0:24:55.961 --> 0:25:00.281 more serious charges, including ten years for attempted murder and 0:25:00.321 --> 0:25:04.761 a serious assault. Now police and prosecutors had to prepare 0:25:04.761 --> 0:25:08.321 for the trial with no physical evidence and with one 0:25:08.361 --> 0:25:11.481 of the main witnesses being a four year old child. 0:25:12.241 --> 0:25:16.161 Archie's witness statement was crucial to this case, but prosecutors 0:25:16.201 --> 0:25:19.801 hit a setback because Archie, now in his thirties, was 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:23.961 deemed unfit to give evidence a trial. Police talked to 0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:26.721 Archie's mother and other family members, who said that after 0:25:26.801 --> 0:25:30.640 what he witnessed that night, he became withdrawn. He was 0:25:30.761 --> 0:25:33.601 permanently affected by what he claimed he saw that night 0:25:33.721 --> 0:25:37.521 down by the river. According to court documents, he suffered 0:25:37.561 --> 0:25:41.961 from low intellectual functioning, several mental disorders, and memory loss 0:25:42.121 --> 0:25:46.640 as a result of alcohol abuse. Because he couldn't testify, 0:25:47.121 --> 0:25:49.801 the investigators needed to find a way to make sure 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.481 that what Archie saw was included at trial, so they 0:25:53.521 --> 0:25:56.481 found a child psychologist. They wanted to get an opinion 0:25:56.521 --> 0:26:00.640 about the police's interview strategies at the time of the murder, because, 0:26:00.681 --> 0:26:03.481 of course, they were probably worried the defense would claim 0:26:03.521 --> 0:26:07.600 that Archie was being coached. But the child's psychologist testified 0:26:07.681 --> 0:26:11.241 that in her opinion, Archie's memories were genuine and that 0:26:11.321 --> 0:26:16.281 he had described a lived event. So the psychologists believed 0:26:16.721 --> 0:26:19.321 Archie's statements about being at the river and witnessing the 0:26:19.361 --> 0:26:23.120 attack were genuine. They were allowed to be admitted not 0:26:23.321 --> 0:26:27.441 as evidence at trial, but his hearsay. It also came 0:26:27.481 --> 0:26:29.921 out in court that the morning after the murder, Archie 0:26:29.961 --> 0:26:33.441 had slept very late until almost noon after his mom, Betty, 0:26:33.481 --> 0:26:36.721