Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold
Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite
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Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights
Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be
Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts
Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has
Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply
Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime
Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2: It was around midnight on Sunday, August twenty fifth, nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety six, and fourteen year old Caroline Glacken was out
Speaker 2: walking along the River Leavin in Bonhill, Scotland. The river
Speaker 2: ran down a path separating two neighboring towns, Bonnhill and Brittain.
Speaker 2: This little river path was kind of a main thoroughfare.
Speaker 2: Caroline took this path all the time and was very
Speaker 2: familiar with it. Caroline had spent the afternoon visiting friends.
Speaker 2: She was enjoying the long weekend because that Monday was
Speaker 2: a bank holiday, so Caroline and her friends were enjoying
Speaker 2: one last weekend of summer. At around ten ten pm,
Speaker 2: Caroline stopped at home her mother, Margaret, and her mother's
Speaker 2: fiance Alan were heading out to dinner to celebrate Margaret's birthday,
Speaker 2: according to the BBC program Crime Watch. After checking in
Speaker 2: with her mom, Caroline left her house to meet up
Speaker 2: with her best friend Joanne. On that night, Caroline had
Speaker 2: invited joe Anne and two other friends for a sleepover,
Speaker 2: but at some point her plans changed. At around eleven
Speaker 2: forty five, Caroline and joe Anne left another friend's flat.
Speaker 2: They started walking down to an area called the Ladytoon
Speaker 2: Shops in Bonhill. Joe Anne later told police that Caroline
Speaker 2: had a date. She was planning on meeting someone at midnight,
Speaker 2: so Caroline gave joe Anne the keys to her house
Speaker 2: so that Joanne could get in without her. Then Caroline
Speaker 2: ran into another acquaintance of hers named Alison Curly on
Speaker 2: the bond Hill side of the bridge. Alison told police
Speaker 2: that she and a friend of hers named James Doherty
Speaker 2: continued walking with Caroline down the road. Alison said that
Speaker 2: at some point she and James turned right, Caroline turned
Speaker 2: left to walk down the path called Dila ship Loane
Speaker 2: to meet her day after dark. There was no lighting there,
Speaker 2: so it got really dark down by the river. James
Speaker 2: told police that he offered to go with Caroline to
Speaker 2: meet the guy, but Caroline said not to worry, that
Speaker 2: she would be fine because she said her date was there.
Speaker 2: Caroline disappeared into the darkness. According to her mother, Margaret,
Speaker 2: Caroline's curfew was at two am, but Caroline never.
Speaker 3: Made it home.
Speaker 2: Margaret got home later. She told police that she waited
Speaker 2: a while, but then she fell asleep. At some point,
Speaker 2: she woke up and started calling Caroline's friends, but no
Speaker 2: one had seen her daughter. So Margaret called the police
Speaker 2: and they immediately started searching for Caroline. It didn't take
Speaker 2: them long to find her. Later that day, August twenty fifth,
Speaker 2: just after four pm, on her mother, Margaret's fortieth birthday,
Speaker 2: Caroline's body was found floating in the river leaving. I'm
Speaker 2: Catherine Townsend. Over the past seven years of making my
Speaker 2: true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I've learned that there is
Speaker 2: no such thing as a small town where murder never happens.
Speaker 2: I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the
Speaker 2: country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them,
Speaker 2: their families, and their communities. If you have a case
Speaker 2: you'd like me and my team to look into, you
Speaker 2: can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder
Speaker 2: line at six seven eight seven four four six one
Speaker 2: four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six
Speaker 2: one four five, or you can send us a message
Speaker 2: on Instagram at Helen gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line.
Speaker 2: As police divers pulled Caroline's body from the river, her
Speaker 2: distraught mother and family were answering questions from police about
Speaker 2: who might have wanted to do this to her. Caroline
Speaker 2: grew up with her parents, William and Margaret Glackin. Later,
Speaker 2: Margaret testified in court that Caroline was her miracle child.
Speaker 2: Margaret said she had five miscarriages before they had Caroline,
Speaker 2: so Caroline was the light of her life. She told
Speaker 2: Crime Watch about how loving and affectionate her daughter was,
Speaker 2: and how even though Caroline was a teenager, she still
Speaker 2: had this naive, childlike side. William and Margaret had divorced,
Speaker 2: but from everything I've read, it seems as though they
Speaker 2: maintained an amicable co parenting relationship, and it seemed clear
Speaker 2: they both adored their only daughter. Margaret was the one
Speaker 2: who identified Caroline's body. Caroline's body was sent in for
Speaker 2: forensic testing, and testing showed that Caroline had been brutally beaten.
Speaker 2: Caroline's killer or killers had hit her at least ten
Speaker 2: times in the head, so hard that she suffered extreme
Speaker 2: fractures to the skull, and Caroline had no defensive injuries,
Speaker 2: which meant that she must have been taken by surprise.
Speaker 2: According to court documents, she lost consciousness fairly quickly. Doctor
Speaker 2: Marjorie Turner, a forensic pathologist, found that Caroline's injuries were
Speaker 2: quote probably inflicted with a blunt weapon, although there could
Speaker 2: have also been punches or kicks end quote. She stated
Speaker 2: that one injury above Caroline's ear had a curved laceration,
Speaker 2: suggesting that it had been caused by a weapon with
Speaker 2: a curved area to it, such as a hammer, But
Speaker 2: the actual cause of death was drowning, so Caroline's killer
Speaker 2: or killers had beaten her until she was unconscious and
Speaker 2: then left her the face down in the water. Forensic
Speaker 2: testing also revealed that no alcohol or drugs were found
Speaker 2: in Caroline system. Caroline's family was trying to process why
Speaker 2: somewhat possibly someone who lived in the small village where
Speaker 2: they had lived since her daughter was born would want
Speaker 2: to beat Caroline to death. Police were trying to find
Speaker 2: people who had been in the area at the time
Speaker 2: of the attack, and according to the Crime Watch show
Speaker 2: that aired in nineteen ninety six, one of the people
Speaker 2: they questioned was a taxi driver. The driver was going
Speaker 2: down the lane along the river next to the path
Speaker 2: and he saw Caroline in his headlights. Now at that time,
Speaker 2: the driver also noticed a young, clean shaven man wearing
Speaker 2: a dark colored hoodie who seemed to be following Caroline.
Speaker 2: Police also tried to find regulars to the area, including
Speaker 2: a white man described as being of stocky build, aged
Speaker 2: thirty to thirty five, with a mustache and a tan.
Speaker 2: According to Crime Watch, another potential lead came from an academy.
Speaker 2: They said on the program two students had left the
Speaker 2: grounds of the academy after midnight. Police said they believed
Speaker 2: Caroline's killer knew the area and the dark pathway well,
Speaker 2: so they were also looking for anyone else who might
Speaker 2: have seen anything suspicious, including fishermen. Police were also trying
Speaker 2: to nail down the time of death, because by the
Speaker 2: time they found Caroline's body, it had been in the
Speaker 2: water for several hours. Police were able to roughly estimate
Speaker 2: the time of the attack to around twelve thirty am
Speaker 2: because they talked to several witnesses who heard screams at
Speaker 2: that time coming from the direction of the river, and
Speaker 2: one of those witnesses heard a female voice scream. I
Speaker 2: didn't say that. I didn't do that. So who was
Speaker 2: the source of the screen? Was that Caroline? Or could
Speaker 2: Caroline's killer have been a woman. The other thing that
Speaker 2: police were working on was Caroline's plans for a midnight rendezvous.
Speaker 2: Allawann's best friend Joanne shed some light on the person
Speaker 2: who Caroline was planning on meeting at the black bridge
Speaker 2: that connected Bonhill and Rintain at midnight that night. Joe
Speaker 2: Anne said that Caroline's date that night was a local
Speaker 2: eighteen year old named Robbie O'Brien, but this information about
Speaker 2: Robbie did not come out until much later. So who
Speaker 2: was Robbie and what was the truth of his involvement
Speaker 2: with Caroline. According to court testimony, Caroline was infatuated with
Speaker 2: Robbie and They had gone out together to an Oasis
Speaker 2: concert just three weeks before Caroline's murder. But Robbie was
Speaker 2: from what a police investigator later called a notorious family
Speaker 2: in the area, meaning that people felt they would be
Speaker 2: threatened if they spoke out against these particular individuals. Robbie
Speaker 2: O'Brien was said to be involved in drugs. This was
Speaker 2: when the heroine epidemic was exploding in Scotland. This was
Speaker 2: back in the time of the movie Train Spotty in
Speaker 2: the nineties, and Robbie used heroin. Caroline's mother later told
Speaker 2: police she was afraid that he may have introduced Caroline
Speaker 2: to the drug as well. According to Joanne, she didn't
Speaker 2: like Caroline and Robbie's relationship. She thought that Robbie was
Speaker 2: trouble in more ways than one. For one thing, Joanne
Speaker 2: told police that she had personally witnessed Robbie assaulting Caroline.
Speaker 2: Caroline's mother and friends later testified they also believed that
Speaker 2: Robbie was violent and that he was bad news. So Caroline,
Speaker 2: like a lot of young women, would sneak out to
Speaker 2: meet him in secret. Normally they would meet at that
Speaker 2: bridge near the river. Another red flag was that Caroline
Speaker 2: wasn't the only young woman in Robbie's life, because Robbie
Speaker 2: already had a girlfriend, and at the time of the killing,
Speaker 2: his girlfriend, seventeen year old Donna Marie Brand, was pregnant.
Speaker 2: Very quickly after Caroline's death, the names of four teenagers
Speaker 2: were being talked about in the village as four people
Speaker 2: who may have been involved in Caroline's murder. It was
Speaker 2: Robbie O'Brien and his pregnant girlfriend, Donna Marie Brand, along
Speaker 2: with their friends Andrew Kelly and his girlfriend Sarah Jane O'Neill.
Speaker 2: Police did talk to all four of these teens and
Speaker 2: they all said that they had an alibi. They said
Speaker 2: they all spent the night at a woman named Betty
Speaker 2: Wilson's flat at twelve Alan Crescent. The couple Andrew Kelly
Speaker 2: and Sarah Jane O'Neill were babysitting two young children there.
Speaker 2: Robbie and Donna came over. They all stayed overnight, and
Speaker 2: Betty didn't come home until around ten or eleven the
Speaker 2: next morning. Because of that alibi, it seems as though
Speaker 2: police ruled out Robbie and his friends early on, and
Speaker 2: the four of them stuck to that story. For decades.
Speaker 2: Over the years the case went cold, police made public
Speaker 2: appeals for information. In twenty sixteen, the BBC's Crime Watch
Speaker 2: program did a second episode about this case with re enactments,
Speaker 2: but in that show and in most media since Caroline's murder,
Speaker 2: no one ever mentioned Robbie or his friends. Instead, media
Speaker 2: liked the Crime Watch program focused on other leads, including
Speaker 2: the sketch of the man in the hoodie. But in
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen everything changed, because that's when the Scottish Police
Speaker 2: Major Investigation Team started their own investigation into the case.
Speaker 2: Their investigation was documented in a BBC series called Murder
Speaker 2: Trial Girl in the River. The senior investigating officer, Detective
Speaker 2: Inspector Stuart Granger, said in that program that they had
Speaker 2: no physical evidence, no CCTV and no digital trail. Remember
Speaker 2: this was in the pre cell phone age, so they
Speaker 2: could not check those type of phone records. Police didn't
Speaker 2: know a lot of basic facts about this case. They
Speaker 2: didn't know if there was one killer or more than one.
Speaker 2: They didn't even have a murder weapon. So they did
Speaker 2: something that I've said before when doing this podcast. Normally
Speaker 2: time is the enemy of cold case detectives, but sometimes
Speaker 2: time can be an asset, and it seems like the
Speaker 2: investigators in this case figured that out because a lot
Speaker 2: of people who were teenagers at the time this happened,
Speaker 2: or who may have been afraid of retaliation from certain
Speaker 2: people or certain families, now had grown up. They had
Speaker 2: children of their own, and they could better empathize with
Speaker 2: Caroline's parents. Police took another look at the original investigation
Speaker 2: and something else jumped out of them. A witness statement
Speaker 2: taken right after Caroline's murder by a potential witness who
Speaker 2: was just four years old at the time. His name
Speaker 2: was Archie Wilson. He was the son of Betty Wilson,
Speaker 2: whose flat the four teens claimed they were staying at
Speaker 2: all night on the night of the murder. On that night,
Speaker 2: August twenty fourth into August twenty fifth, four year old
Speaker 2: Archie and his two year old brother Jamie were at home.
Speaker 2: Andrew and his three friends Robbie, Donna, and Sarah came over.
Speaker 2: When Archie's mother, Betty got back home the next day
Speaker 2: at around ten or eleven am, she saw something strange.
Speaker 2: Andrew had his pants off and was drying them by
Speaker 2: the fire, and there was also a large wet patch
Speaker 2: on their carpet. She later testified the carpet was soaked.
Speaker 2: Andrew told Betty that the carpet was wet because Archie
Speaker 2: had urinated on him and on the carpet, but Archie
Speaker 2: told his mother that wasn't true, and Archie said something
Speaker 2: else about what had happened the night before. Archie told
Speaker 2: his mother and her sister Daisy that Robbie and Donna
Speaker 2: had been in the home with Andrew and Sarah Jane,
Speaker 2: and that Archie had been down at the leven with
Speaker 2: the fourteens. He said that Robbie, Donna, Andrew and Sarah
Speaker 2: had been fighting a lassie, Scottish slang for young women,
Speaker 2: and that the young woman had ended up in the water.
Speaker 2: He also told his mother and Daisy that the young
Speaker 2: woman had been hit on the head. Later, at Archie's
Speaker 2: aunt's house, Archie told the story again, saying that Robbie
Speaker 2: was wet, had been fighting a girl and had pushed
Speaker 2: her into the water. Archie talked to police on August
Speaker 2: twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six. He told them that he
Speaker 2: saw Andrew throwing boulders at the young woman, meaning Caroline,
Speaker 2: that somebody died, and that one of the young men
Speaker 2: also fell into the river. He said that was the
Speaker 2: reason why the carpet had a wet patch. Archie told
Speaker 2: police that Robbie, Donna, Sarah, and Andrew were all at
Speaker 2: the river when Caroline was in the water, that he
Speaker 2: saw Robbie hitting her with a stick and a metal pole,
Speaker 2: and that Robbie pushed her into the water. Police did
Speaker 2: another interview with Archie, this time on video. The second
Speaker 2: interview was done a month after Caroline's death, but back
Speaker 2: then Archie's stories were over looked by police. I'm not
Speaker 2: sure why. The police who spoke to the BBC years
Speaker 2: later said that there were a lot of rumors floating
Speaker 2: around at the time of the murder. It seems as
Speaker 2: though in all this chaos, the little boy's story was ignored.
Speaker 2: And it's also possible police dismissed his accounts because of
Speaker 2: his age, or that they simply didn't realize the significance.
Speaker 2: But during the twenty nineteen investigation that all changed. Police
Speaker 2: figured out something crucial the timeline. Archie had talked to
Speaker 2: police on August twenty sixth, but first told his story
Speaker 2: to his mom and others on August twenty fifth. Archie
Speaker 2: told his mother about something happening to Caroline at lunchtime
Speaker 2: on Sunday the twenty fifth, but Caroline's body was not
Speaker 2: found until hours later, after four pm. So how would
Speaker 2: he have known something happened to Caroline and so many
Speaker 2: details about her eye injury unless he had been there.
Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, police believed it was very possible that
Speaker 2: Archie had witnessed Caroline's murder, but Archie wasn't taken seriously
Speaker 2: because the fourteens stuck to their alibi and Archie had
Speaker 2: been a small child at the time. Was it really
Speaker 2: possible that not one but four killers had gotten away
Speaker 2: for almost thirty years. But police needed more than Archie's story.
Speaker 2: They needed to crack Robbie and his friend's airtight alibi.
Speaker 2: So they went back. They went door to door. They
Speaker 2: questioned everyone again, even people who had been children at
Speaker 2: the time of the murder, and that's when they found
Speaker 2: one of Betty Wilson's upstairs neighbors, Linda Dorian, someone who
Speaker 2: had given a statement to police in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 2: but apparently police back then only spent a few minutes
Speaker 2: talking to her. In twenty nineteen, Linda told police She
Speaker 2: had been at home on August twenty fifth, nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 2: with her ten year old daughter Emma. She remembered that
Speaker 2: it was around midnight because she was planning on watching
Speaker 2: a movie on Sky that came on at that time.
Speaker 2: She told police that shortly before the movie started, she
Speaker 2: heard a door opening downstairs and looked out onto the street.
Speaker 2: Linda said that she saw four teenagers who she recognized
Speaker 2: as Andrew and his friends Sarah, Robbie and Donna, leaving
Speaker 2: Betty Wilson's flat, and she saw something odd at that
Speaker 2: time of night. The fourteens had two year old Jamie
Speaker 2: inside a stroller and four year old Archie holding onto
Speaker 2: the handle. She saw the four teens and the two
Speaker 2: young children walk down in cross Main Street in the
Speaker 2: direction of the River Leavin. This was the first time
Speaker 2: that police were able to find any kind of a
Speaker 2: weakness with the alibi and evidence that the four teens
Speaker 2: were not at Betty Wilson's home all night as they
Speaker 2: had claimed. Linda said that she saw Sarah, Robbie, Andrew
Speaker 2: and Donna and the two children all come back to
Speaker 2: the Wilson flat about forty minutes to an hour after
Speaker 2: they left, and when they did, she said they were
Speaker 2: in highly emotional states. She said she heard a commotion downstairs,
Speaker 2: a door slamming and shouting. Linda said that Sarah in
Speaker 2: particular seemed super upset and was yelling, you're a prick,
Speaker 2: You're a dick. She said that Sarah and Donna were
Speaker 2: both wailing and that Sarah shouted quote that wasn't meant
Speaker 2: to happen, that was out of order, that was a
Speaker 2: setup end quote, and Linda said that she heard other
Speaker 2: voices talking about being quiet because of the children. When
Speaker 2: the BBC asked police why they didn't follow this line
Speaker 2: of investigation in nineteen ninety six, the senior officer said
Speaker 2: that quote it appeared that the relevant questions were simply
Speaker 2: not asked.
Speaker 3: End quote.
Speaker 2: In court, it came out that the initial officers had
Speaker 2: only spent a few minutes with Linda and asked very
Speaker 2: basic questions of her and her neighbors, and then they
Speaker 2: never came back. One of the investigators stated one of
Speaker 2: the issues with this investigation was the fact that several
Speaker 2: potential witnesses were criminals themselves and that it was hard
Speaker 2: to find them. Also, some were involved in drugs or
Speaker 2: other things, and they did not want to draw attention
Speaker 2: to themselves. With law enforcement working on this podcast, I've
Speaker 2: found this is a global problem. This is a challenge
Speaker 2: in small towns around the world. By the way, this
Speaker 2: doesn't apply to Linda and her neighbors. That was, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, more a case of police doing these very
Speaker 2: perfunctory interviews and not asking more in depth questions, something
Speaker 2: that I have sadly seen far too often in investigations
Speaker 2: as well. It's interesting because this case is thousands of
Speaker 2: miles from a lot of the cases that I cover,
Speaker 2: but I see so many parallels other investigations that we
Speaker 2: have covered in this podcast. Often, in my opinion, police
Speaker 2: tend to rule out testimony from anyone who was using drugs, which,
Speaker 2: to be honest, can rule out a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Another factor that stopped people from speaking out may have
Speaker 2: been fear of Robbie O'Brien and his family. Specifically, the
Speaker 2: senior officer said in court quote Robbie O'Brien was from
Speaker 2: a particular family in that area, a family who had
Speaker 2: quite a lot of control, and there was a certain
Speaker 2: element of you don't want to.
Speaker 3: Speak out end quote.
Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, the investigators were also trying to get
Speaker 2: more information on Robbie's relationship with Caroline. According to court documents,
Speaker 2: Caroline's best friend, Joanne, told police that Robbie had told
Speaker 2: Caroline he would kill her if she kissed someone else.
Speaker 2: Joanne said she personally had seen Robbie attempt to attack
Speaker 2: Caroline on numerous occasions and that she had actually intervened
Speaker 2: in at least one of those attacks, and there was
Speaker 2: something else that could hint at a potential motive. Two
Speaker 2: weeks before she died, Caroline told a friend that she
Speaker 2: had taken a pregnancy test and that it was positive
Speaker 2: and that Robbie O'Brien was the father. Two weeks before
Speaker 2: her death, Caroline told a friend of hers named Tracy
Speaker 2: McFetridge that she had had a positive pregnancy test and
Speaker 2: she thought Robbie was the father. Now, there was no
Speaker 2: pregnancy reported on the post mortem examination of Caroline, but
Speaker 2: investigators think it's very possible that at the time of
Speaker 2: the murder, Caroline believed that she was pregnant, and reading
Speaker 2: through these statements, it seems as though the relationship between
Speaker 2: Robbie and Caroline seemed to be becoming more and more
Speaker 2: confrontational and could have been headed for disaster. Tracy told
Speaker 2: police during the early investigation that Robbie's girlfriend, Donna knew
Speaker 2: that he had been seeing Caroline, and that Donna had
Speaker 2: told Tracy and Sarah Jane O'Neill that she was going
Speaker 2: to batter Caroline. Derek Hunner, a cousin of Caroline's, told
Speaker 2: police that Caroline wrote a letter to Robbie asking him
Speaker 2: to stay at her house on Saturday night, and that
Speaker 2: Caroline's mother, Margaret, had found another letter between Caroline and Robbie.
Speaker 2: According to court documents, Margaret was concerned about the relationship
Speaker 2: between Robbie and her daughter. She stated to police that
Speaker 2: Caroline was infatuated with Robbie and that she believed he
Speaker 2: had given Caroline heroin. The prosecution and police finally believed
Speaker 2: they had enough evidence to bring charges. In November of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, three suspects, Robbie O'Brien, Donna, Marie Brand,
Speaker 2: and Andrew Kelly were arrested in charge with Caroline's murder.
Speaker 2: Sarah Jane O'Neill would have been charged as well, according
Speaker 2: to prosecutors, but she died in July twenty nineteen. Their
Speaker 2: trial began in late twenty twenty three in Glasgow High Court.
Speaker 2: All three of the accused killers were now in their forties.
Speaker 2: In the years since nineteen ninety six, Robbie O'Brien had
Speaker 2: spent time behind bars four drug charges, but also from
Speaker 2: more serious charges, including ten years for attempted murder and
Speaker 2: a serious assault. Now police and prosecutors had to prepare
Speaker 2: for the trial with no physical evidence and with one
Speaker 2: of the main witnesses being a four year old child.
Speaker 2: Archie's witness statement was crucial to this case, but prosecutors
Speaker 2: hit a setback because Archie, now in his thirties, was
Speaker 2: deemed unfit to give evidence a trial. Police talked to
Speaker 2: Archie's mother and other family members, who said that after
Speaker 2: what he witnessed that night, he became withdrawn. He was
Speaker 2: permanently affected by what he claimed he saw that night
Speaker 2: down by the river. According to court documents, he suffered
Speaker 2: from low intellectual functioning, several mental disorders, and memory loss
Speaker 2: as a result of alcohol abuse. Because he couldn't testify,
Speaker 2: the investigators needed to find a way to make sure
Speaker 2: that what Archie saw was included at trial, so they
Speaker 2: found a child psychologist. They wanted to get an opinion
Speaker 2: about the police's interview strategies at the time of the murder, because,
Speaker 2: of course, they were probably worried the defense would claim
Speaker 2: that Archie was being coached. But the child's psychologist testified
Speaker 2: that in her opinion, Archie's memories were genuine and that
Speaker 2: he had described a lived event. So the psychologists believed
Speaker 2: Archie's statements about being at the river and witnessing the
Speaker 2: attack were genuine. They were allowed to be admitted not
Speaker 2: as evidence at trial, but his hearsay. It also came
Speaker 2: out in court that the morning after the murder, Archie
Speaker 2: had slept very late until almost noon after his mom, Betty,
Speaker 2: came home. After Betty came home on the twenty fifth,
Speaker 2: she found Andrew Kelly there with her two boys, and
Speaker 2: at first everything seemed normal, but when Betty he asked
Speaker 2: about the wet spot on the floor, Andrews said Archie
Speaker 2: had urinated on the carpet, but Archie later said that
Speaker 2: Robbie had been at the flat and that Robbie had
Speaker 2: been wet. It also came out in court that Archie
Speaker 2: had even more crucial details about the murder. He knew
Speaker 2: about Caroline being attacked in the river, and he said
Speaker 2: he saw Robbie hit Caroline with a stick and a pole.
Speaker 2: He described her having metal in her eye, a detail
Speaker 2: that detectives believe Archie could not have known about unless
Speaker 2: he was there. The defense tried to turn the conversation
Speaker 2: to drugs and the possibility that Caroline was going to
Speaker 2: buy drugs on the night she was murdered, but the
Speaker 2: prosecution kept bringing back the motive to Robbie and Caroline's
Speaker 2: romantic relationship. Meanwhile, police found another witness in addition to
Speaker 2: the neighbor, Linda Dorian, who cast out on the fact
Speaker 2: that the four teens were in the flat with Archie
Speaker 2: and James all night. Sharon Gorman was a friend of
Speaker 2: Betty Wilson's. She had borrowed a cassette tape from Betty
Speaker 2: and on that night, at around twelve thirty am on
Speaker 2: August twenty fifth, she knocked on Betty Wilson's door. She
Speaker 2: told police the lights in the flat were on, but
Speaker 2: no one answered. The prosecutors put together a picture of
Speaker 2: what happened in the early morning hours of August twenty fifth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, for the jury. They said that Caroline
Speaker 2: sent a letter to Robbie saying that she wanted to
Speaker 2: meet at midnight, but unbeknownst to Caroline, she was walking
Speaker 2: into an ambush. She had no idea that it wasn't
Speaker 2: just Robbie's showing up that night, but Robbie, his girlfriend
Speaker 2: and two of their friends, and that this would be
Speaker 2: a brutal attack. It's not clear exactly who did what
Speaker 2: and when, but we know from Archie's testimony there were
Speaker 2: multiple weapons used, including a stick and a pole. Archie
Speaker 2: also said he saw Andrew Kelly throw rocks at Caroline.
Speaker 2: Prosecutors said this was a premeditated, vicious attack. Court documents
Speaker 2: called the killing an evil, concerted crime. This was a
Speaker 2: big question during the trial who was involved with killing
Speaker 2: Caroline and what specifically did they do Because in Scotland
Speaker 2: the rules are slightly different than in the US. Here
Speaker 2: we have the felony murder rule, so depending on the state,
Speaker 2: people can be charged with a felony and sometimes receive
Speaker 2: the same sentence as the actual killer or an even
Speaker 2: larger sentence, even if they were just there when the
Speaker 2: death happens, whether or not it was intended. The laws
Speaker 2: are slightly different, but in Scotland in the UK. In general,
Speaker 2: a person can only be found guilty of a criminal
Speaker 2: act if he or she has participated in that act.
Speaker 2: Someone who was just there but played no part is
Speaker 2: classified as a mere bystander. But and this part is crucial,
Speaker 2: the law also clearly states that a person can participate
Speaker 2: in an assault without actually throwing punches. The law says
Speaker 2: when there is prior agreement to commit the assault, and
Speaker 2: the person was a party to that agreement, meaning that quote,
Speaker 2: any degree of participation is sufficient to make the accused
Speaker 2: responsible for what the other part of your parties do,
Speaker 2: provided that it does not go beyond the extent of
Speaker 2: what was agreed end quote. The law also says that
Speaker 2: providing moral support to the person attacking the victim or
Speaker 2: threatening or intimidating the victim can countess participation. And that's
Speaker 2: what happened here because crucially, at trial, the pathologists to
Speaker 2: examine Carolyne testified that it wasn't just Robbie who was
Speaker 2: responsible for her death. The pathologists pointed out the people
Speaker 2: with her killer did not help Caroline or try to
Speaker 2: save her. They just left her there to die. Judge
Speaker 2: Lord Braid stated in court that Robbie was the ringleader
Speaker 2: and used extreme violence during the killing. He said that
Speaker 2: Andrew Kelly was also involved in inflicting murderous violence on Caroline,
Speaker 2: and because Donna knew this was a premeditated attack, she
Speaker 2: was also charged. On December fourteenth, twenty twenty three, Andrew Kelly,
Speaker 2: Robbie O'Brien, and Donna Marie Brand were found guilty of
Speaker 2: Caroline's murder. They were all given life sentences, but life
Speaker 2: in the UK and life in the US can mean
Speaker 2: two very different things. In the UK, they very rarely
Speaker 2: have life without the possibility of parole. Robbie was found
Speaker 2: to be the main perpetrator. He was given a minimum
Speaker 2: sentence of twenty two years. Andrew Kelly was ordered to
Speaker 2: serve at least eighteen years in prison. Donna Marie Brand
Speaker 2: was forty four years old and, according to media reports,
Speaker 2: had been off drug since two thousand and three and
Speaker 2: had a lot of health problems, including a blood disorder, epilepsy,
Speaker 2: and chronic depression. She appeared in court in a wheelchair.
Speaker 2: Despite all this, Donna was assessed as being at moderate
Speaker 2: risk of reoffending, so she was sentenced to a minimum
Speaker 2: of seventeen years in prison, Detective Inspector Stuart Granger told
Speaker 2: the press, quote, at the heart of this is a mother,
Speaker 2: a father, extended family and friends who have had to
Speaker 2: endure years of not knowing who killed Caroline. For years,
Speaker 2: this community has lived under a dark cloud, wondering if
Speaker 2: Caroline's killers walked among them. Nothing will bring Caroline back
Speaker 2: or less than the heartache her family and friends live with.
Speaker 2: But I hope that seeing those responsible paying for their
Speaker 2: crime offers them some level of comfort.
Speaker 3: End quote.
Speaker 2: Caroline's mother has said she was overjoyed by that verdict.
Speaker 2: She said the murder of her daughter was a void
Speaker 2: that would never be filled, so for her, they would
Speaker 2: never be true closure, but she did feel that there
Speaker 2: had been justice. The judge stated that even the donna
Speaker 2: did not take part in the assault, that she shared
Speaker 2: responsibility for the crime because she left Caroline face down
Speaker 2: in the river, and in court it was reaffirmed that
Speaker 2: experts believed that even though Caroline had been brutally and
Speaker 2: viciously beaten with multiple weapons and had rocks thrown at
Speaker 2: her and her skull was fractured, she was unconscious but
Speaker 2: alive when she went into that water, so someone might
Speaker 2: have been able to save her if they had gotten
Speaker 2: her immediate medical help or even pulled her out of
Speaker 2: the water, but they didn't. They left her there to
Speaker 2: die beside the river. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen
Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murderline is a production of
Speaker 2: School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated
Speaker 2: by me Catherine Townshend and produced by Gabby Watts. Special
Speaker 2: thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance and James
Speaker 2: Wheaton for legal review. Noah camer mixed and score this episode.
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Ben Sale, Executive producers of
Speaker 2: Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and LC Crowley. Listen to Helen
Speaker 2: Gone ad free by subscribing to the iHeart True Prime
Speaker 2: Plush channel on Apple Podcasts. If you were interested in
Speaker 2: seeing documents and materials from the case, you can follow
Speaker 2: the show on Instagram at Helen gonpod. If you have
Speaker 2: a case you'd like me and my team to look into,
Speaker 2: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone
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