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Speaker 1: School of Humans. Helen Got Murder Line actively investigates cold

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Speaker 1: case murders in an effort to raise public awareness invite

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Speaker 1: witnesses to come forward and present evidence that could potentially

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Speaker 1: be further investigated by law enforcement. While we value insights

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Speaker 1: from family and community members, their statements should not be

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Speaker 1: considered evidence and point to the challenges of verifying facts

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Speaker 1: inherent in cold cases. We remind listeners that everyone has

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Speaker 1: presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

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Speaker 1: Nothing in the podcast is intended to state or imply

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Speaker 1: that anyone who has not been convicted of a crime

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Speaker 1: is guilty of any wrongdoing. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: It was around midnight on Sunday, August twenty fifth, nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety six, and fourteen year old Caroline Glacken was out

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Speaker 2: walking along the River Leavin in Bonhill, Scotland. The river

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Speaker 2: ran down a path separating two neighboring towns, Bonnhill and Brittain.

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Speaker 2: This little river path was kind of a main thoroughfare.

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Speaker 2: Caroline took this path all the time and was very

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Speaker 2: familiar with it. Caroline had spent the afternoon visiting friends.

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Speaker 2: She was enjoying the long weekend because that Monday was

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Speaker 2: a bank holiday, so Caroline and her friends were enjoying

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Speaker 2: one last weekend of summer. At around ten ten pm,

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Speaker 2: Caroline stopped at home her mother, Margaret, and her mother's

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Speaker 2: fiance Alan were heading out to dinner to celebrate Margaret's birthday,

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Speaker 2: according to the BBC program Crime Watch. After checking in

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Speaker 2: with her mom, Caroline left her house to meet up

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Speaker 2: with her best friend Joanne. On that night, Caroline had

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Speaker 2: invited joe Anne and two other friends for a sleepover,

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Speaker 2: but at some point her plans changed. At around eleven

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Speaker 2: forty five, Caroline and joe Anne left another friend's flat.

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Speaker 2: They started walking down to an area called the Ladytoon

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Speaker 2: Shops in Bonhill. Joe Anne later told police that Caroline

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Speaker 2: had a date. She was planning on meeting someone at midnight,

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Speaker 2: so Caroline gave joe Anne the keys to her house

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Speaker 2: so that Joanne could get in without her. Then Caroline

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Speaker 2: ran into another acquaintance of hers named Alison Curly on

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Speaker 2: the bond Hill side of the bridge. Alison told police

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Speaker 2: that she and a friend of hers named James Doherty

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Speaker 2: continued walking with Caroline down the road. Alison said that

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Speaker 2: at some point she and James turned right, Caroline turned

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Speaker 2: left to walk down the path called Dila ship Loane

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Speaker 2: to meet her day after dark. There was no lighting there,

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Speaker 2: so it got really dark down by the river. James

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Speaker 2: told police that he offered to go with Caroline to

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Speaker 2: meet the guy, but Caroline said not to worry, that

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Speaker 2: she would be fine because she said her date was there.

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Speaker 2: Caroline disappeared into the darkness. According to her mother, Margaret,

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Speaker 2: Caroline's curfew was at two am, but Caroline never.

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Speaker 3: Made it home.

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Speaker 2: Margaret got home later. She told police that she waited

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Speaker 2: a while, but then she fell asleep. At some point,

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Speaker 2: she woke up and started calling Caroline's friends, but no

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Speaker 2: one had seen her daughter. So Margaret called the police

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Speaker 2: and they immediately started searching for Caroline. It didn't take

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Speaker 2: them long to find her. Later that day, August twenty fifth,

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Speaker 2: just after four pm, on her mother, Margaret's fortieth birthday,

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Speaker 2: Caroline's body was found floating in the river leaving. I'm

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Speaker 2: Catherine Townsend. Over the past seven years of making my

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Speaker 2: true crime podcast, Helling Gone, I've learned that there is

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Speaker 2: no such thing as a small town where murder never happens.

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Speaker 2: I've received hundreds of messages from people all around the

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Speaker 2: country asking for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them,

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Speaker 2: their families, and their communities. If you have a case

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Speaker 2: you'd like me and my team to look into, you

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Speaker 2: can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder

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Speaker 2: line at six seven eight seven four four six one

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Speaker 2: four five. That's six seven eight seven four four six

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Speaker 2: one four five, or you can send us a message

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Speaker 2: on Instagram at Helen gonepod. This is Helen Gone Murder Line.

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Speaker 2: As police divers pulled Caroline's body from the river, her

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Speaker 2: distraught mother and family were answering questions from police about

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Speaker 2: who might have wanted to do this to her. Caroline

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Speaker 2: grew up with her parents, William and Margaret Glackin. Later,

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Speaker 2: Margaret testified in court that Caroline was her miracle child.

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Speaker 2: Margaret said she had five miscarriages before they had Caroline,

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Speaker 2: so Caroline was the light of her life. She told

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Speaker 2: Crime Watch about how loving and affectionate her daughter was,

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Speaker 2: and how even though Caroline was a teenager, she still

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Speaker 2: had this naive, childlike side. William and Margaret had divorced,

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Speaker 2: but from everything I've read, it seems as though they

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Speaker 2: maintained an amicable co parenting relationship, and it seemed clear

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Speaker 2: they both adored their only daughter. Margaret was the one

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Speaker 2: who identified Caroline's body. Caroline's body was sent in for

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Speaker 2: forensic testing, and testing showed that Caroline had been brutally beaten.

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Speaker 2: Caroline's killer or killers had hit her at least ten

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Speaker 2: times in the head, so hard that she suffered extreme

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Speaker 2: fractures to the skull, and Caroline had no defensive injuries,

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Speaker 2: which meant that she must have been taken by surprise.

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Speaker 2: According to court documents, she lost consciousness fairly quickly. Doctor

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Speaker 2: Marjorie Turner, a forensic pathologist, found that Caroline's injuries were

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Speaker 2: quote probably inflicted with a blunt weapon, although there could

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Speaker 2: have also been punches or kicks end quote. She stated

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Speaker 2: that one injury above Caroline's ear had a curved laceration,

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Speaker 2: suggesting that it had been caused by a weapon with

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Speaker 2: a curved area to it, such as a hammer, But

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Speaker 2: the actual cause of death was drowning, so Caroline's killer

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Speaker 2: or killers had beaten her until she was unconscious and

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Speaker 2: then left her the face down in the water. Forensic

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Speaker 2: testing also revealed that no alcohol or drugs were found

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Speaker 2: in Caroline system. Caroline's family was trying to process why

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Speaker 2: somewhat possibly someone who lived in the small village where

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Speaker 2: they had lived since her daughter was born would want

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Speaker 2: to beat Caroline to death. Police were trying to find

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Speaker 2: people who had been in the area at the time

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Speaker 2: of the attack, and according to the Crime Watch show

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Speaker 2: that aired in nineteen ninety six, one of the people

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Speaker 2: they questioned was a taxi driver. The driver was going

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Speaker 2: down the lane along the river next to the path

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Speaker 2: and he saw Caroline in his headlights. Now at that time,

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Speaker 2: the driver also noticed a young, clean shaven man wearing

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Speaker 2: a dark colored hoodie who seemed to be following Caroline.

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Speaker 2: Police also tried to find regulars to the area, including

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Speaker 2: a white man described as being of stocky build, aged

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Speaker 2: thirty to thirty five, with a mustache and a tan.

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Speaker 2: According to Crime Watch, another potential lead came from an academy.

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Speaker 2: They said on the program two students had left the

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Speaker 2: grounds of the academy after midnight. Police said they believed

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Speaker 2: Caroline's killer knew the area and the dark pathway well,

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Speaker 2: so they were also looking for anyone else who might

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Speaker 2: have seen anything suspicious, including fishermen. Police were also trying

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Speaker 2: to nail down the time of death, because by the

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Speaker 2: time they found Caroline's body, it had been in the

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Speaker 2: water for several hours. Police were able to roughly estimate

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Speaker 2: the time of the attack to around twelve thirty am

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Speaker 2: because they talked to several witnesses who heard screams at

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Speaker 2: that time coming from the direction of the river, and

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Speaker 2: one of those witnesses heard a female voice scream. I

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Speaker 2: didn't say that. I didn't do that. So who was

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Speaker 2: the source of the screen? Was that Caroline? Or could

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Speaker 2: Caroline's killer have been a woman. The other thing that

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Speaker 2: police were working on was Caroline's plans for a midnight rendezvous.

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Speaker 2: Allawann's best friend Joanne shed some light on the person

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Speaker 2: who Caroline was planning on meeting at the black bridge

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Speaker 2: that connected Bonhill and Rintain at midnight that night. Joe

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Speaker 2: Anne said that Caroline's date that night was a local

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Speaker 2: eighteen year old named Robbie O'Brien, but this information about

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Speaker 2: Robbie did not come out until much later. So who

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Speaker 2: was Robbie and what was the truth of his involvement

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Speaker 2: with Caroline. According to court testimony, Caroline was infatuated with

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Speaker 2: Robbie and They had gone out together to an Oasis

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Speaker 2: concert just three weeks before Caroline's murder. But Robbie was

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Speaker 2: from what a police investigator later called a notorious family

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Speaker 2: in the area, meaning that people felt they would be

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Speaker 2: threatened if they spoke out against these particular individuals. Robbie

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Speaker 2: O'Brien was said to be involved in drugs. This was

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Speaker 2: when the heroine epidemic was exploding in Scotland. This was

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Speaker 2: back in the time of the movie Train Spotty in

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Speaker 2: the nineties, and Robbie used heroin. Caroline's mother later told

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Speaker 2: police she was afraid that he may have introduced Caroline

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Speaker 2: to the drug as well. According to Joanne, she didn't

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Speaker 2: like Caroline and Robbie's relationship. She thought that Robbie was

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Speaker 2: trouble in more ways than one. For one thing, Joanne

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Speaker 2: told police that she had personally witnessed Robbie assaulting Caroline.

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Speaker 2: Caroline's mother and friends later testified they also believed that

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Speaker 2: Robbie was violent and that he was bad news. So Caroline,

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Speaker 2: like a lot of young women, would sneak out to

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Speaker 2: meet him in secret. Normally they would meet at that

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Speaker 2: bridge near the river. Another red flag was that Caroline

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Speaker 2: wasn't the only young woman in Robbie's life, because Robbie

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Speaker 2: already had a girlfriend, and at the time of the killing,

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Speaker 2: his girlfriend, seventeen year old Donna Marie Brand, was pregnant.

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Speaker 2: Very quickly after Caroline's death, the names of four teenagers

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Speaker 2: were being talked about in the village as four people

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Speaker 2: who may have been involved in Caroline's murder. It was

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Speaker 2: Robbie O'Brien and his pregnant girlfriend, Donna Marie Brand, along

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Speaker 2: with their friends Andrew Kelly and his girlfriend Sarah Jane O'Neill.

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Speaker 2: Police did talk to all four of these teens and

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Speaker 2: they all said that they had an alibi. They said

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Speaker 2: they all spent the night at a woman named Betty

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Speaker 2: Wilson's flat at twelve Alan Crescent. The couple Andrew Kelly

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Speaker 2: and Sarah Jane O'Neill were babysitting two young children there.

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Speaker 2: Robbie and Donna came over. They all stayed overnight, and

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Speaker 2: Betty didn't come home until around ten or eleven the

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Speaker 2: next morning. Because of that alibi, it seems as though

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Speaker 2: police ruled out Robbie and his friends early on, and

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Speaker 2: the four of them stuck to that story. For decades.

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Speaker 2: Over the years the case went cold, police made public

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Speaker 2: appeals for information. In twenty sixteen, the BBC's Crime Watch

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Speaker 2: program did a second episode about this case with re enactments,

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Speaker 2: but in that show and in most media since Caroline's murder,

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Speaker 2: no one ever mentioned Robbie or his friends. Instead, media

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Speaker 2: liked the Crime Watch program focused on other leads, including

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Speaker 2: the sketch of the man in the hoodie. But in

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen everything changed, because that's when the Scottish Police

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Speaker 2: Major Investigation Team started their own investigation into the case.

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Speaker 2: Their investigation was documented in a BBC series called Murder

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Speaker 2: Trial Girl in the River. The senior investigating officer, Detective

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Speaker 2: Inspector Stuart Granger, said in that program that they had

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Speaker 2: no physical evidence, no CCTV and no digital trail. Remember

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Speaker 2: this was in the pre cell phone age, so they

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Speaker 2: could not check those type of phone records. Police didn't

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Speaker 2: know a lot of basic facts about this case. They

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Speaker 2: didn't know if there was one killer or more than one.

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Speaker 2: They didn't even have a murder weapon. So they did

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Speaker 2: something that I've said before when doing this podcast. Normally

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Speaker 2: time is the enemy of cold case detectives, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: time can be an asset, and it seems like the

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Speaker 2: investigators in this case figured that out because a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who were teenagers at the time this happened,

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Speaker 2: or who may have been afraid of retaliation from certain

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Speaker 2: people or certain families, now had grown up. They had

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Speaker 2: children of their own, and they could better empathize with

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Speaker 2: Caroline's parents. Police took another look at the original investigation

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Speaker 2: and something else jumped out of them. A witness statement

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Speaker 2: taken right after Caroline's murder by a potential witness who

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Speaker 2: was just four years old at the time. His name

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Speaker 2: was Archie Wilson. He was the son of Betty Wilson,

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Speaker 2: whose flat the four teens claimed they were staying at

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Speaker 2: all night on the night of the murder. On that night,

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Speaker 2: August twenty fourth into August twenty fifth, four year old

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Speaker 2: Archie and his two year old brother Jamie were at home.

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Speaker 2: Andrew and his three friends Robbie, Donna, and Sarah came over.

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Speaker 2: When Archie's mother, Betty got back home the next day

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Speaker 2: at around ten or eleven am, she saw something strange.

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Speaker 2: Andrew had his pants off and was drying them by

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Speaker 2: the fire, and there was also a large wet patch

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Speaker 2: on their carpet. She later testified the carpet was soaked.

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Speaker 2: Andrew told Betty that the carpet was wet because Archie

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Speaker 2: had urinated on him and on the carpet, but Archie

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Speaker 2: told his mother that wasn't true, and Archie said something

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Speaker 2: else about what had happened the night before. Archie told

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Speaker 2: his mother and her sister Daisy that Robbie and Donna

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Speaker 2: had been in the home with Andrew and Sarah Jane,

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Speaker 2: and that Archie had been down at the leven with

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Speaker 2: the fourteens. He said that Robbie, Donna, Andrew and Sarah

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Speaker 2: had been fighting a lassie, Scottish slang for young women,

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Speaker 2: and that the young woman had ended up in the water.

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Speaker 2: He also told his mother and Daisy that the young

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Speaker 2: woman had been hit on the head. Later, at Archie's

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Speaker 2: aunt's house, Archie told the story again, saying that Robbie

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Speaker 2: was wet, had been fighting a girl and had pushed

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Speaker 2: her into the water. Archie talked to police on August

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Speaker 2: twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six. He told them that he

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Speaker 2: saw Andrew throwing boulders at the young woman, meaning Caroline,

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Speaker 2: that somebody died, and that one of the young men

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Speaker 2: also fell into the river. He said that was the

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Speaker 2: reason why the carpet had a wet patch. Archie told

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Speaker 2: police that Robbie, Donna, Sarah, and Andrew were all at

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Speaker 2: the river when Caroline was in the water, that he

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Speaker 2: saw Robbie hitting her with a stick and a metal pole,

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Speaker 2: and that Robbie pushed her into the water. Police did

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Speaker 2: another interview with Archie, this time on video. The second

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Speaker 2: interview was done a month after Caroline's death, but back

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Speaker 2: then Archie's stories were over looked by police. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure why. The police who spoke to the BBC years

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Speaker 2: later said that there were a lot of rumors floating

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Speaker 2: around at the time of the murder. It seems as

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Speaker 2: though in all this chaos, the little boy's story was ignored.

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Speaker 2: And it's also possible police dismissed his accounts because of

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Speaker 2: his age, or that they simply didn't realize the significance.

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Speaker 2: But during the twenty nineteen investigation that all changed. Police

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Speaker 2: figured out something crucial the timeline. Archie had talked to

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Speaker 2: police on August twenty sixth, but first told his story

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Speaker 2: to his mom and others on August twenty fifth. Archie

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Speaker 2: told his mother about something happening to Caroline at lunchtime

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Speaker 2: on Sunday the twenty fifth, but Caroline's body was not

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Speaker 2: found until hours later, after four pm. So how would

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Speaker 2: he have known something happened to Caroline and so many

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Speaker 2: details about her eye injury unless he had been there.

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Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, police believed it was very possible that

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Speaker 2: Archie had witnessed Caroline's murder, but Archie wasn't taken seriously

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Speaker 2: because the fourteens stuck to their alibi and Archie had

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Speaker 2: been a small child at the time. Was it really

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Speaker 2: possible that not one but four killers had gotten away

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Speaker 2: for almost thirty years. But police needed more than Archie's story.

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Speaker 2: They needed to crack Robbie and his friend's airtight alibi.

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Speaker 2: So they went back. They went door to door. They

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Speaker 2: questioned everyone again, even people who had been children at

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Speaker 2: the time of the murder, and that's when they found

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Speaker 2: one of Betty Wilson's upstairs neighbors, Linda Dorian, someone who

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Speaker 2: had given a statement to police in nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 2: but apparently police back then only spent a few minutes

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Speaker 2: talking to her. In twenty nineteen, Linda told police She

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Speaker 2: had been at home on August twenty fifth, nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 2: with her ten year old daughter Emma. She remembered that

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Speaker 2: it was around midnight because she was planning on watching

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Speaker 2: a movie on Sky that came on at that time.

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Speaker 2: She told police that shortly before the movie started, she

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Speaker 2: heard a door opening downstairs and looked out onto the street.

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Speaker 2: Linda said that she saw four teenagers who she recognized

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Speaker 2: as Andrew and his friends Sarah, Robbie and Donna, leaving

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Speaker 2: Betty Wilson's flat, and she saw something odd at that

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Speaker 2: time of night. The fourteens had two year old Jamie

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Speaker 2: inside a stroller and four year old Archie holding onto

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Speaker 2: the handle. She saw the four teens and the two

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Speaker 2: young children walk down in cross Main Street in the

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Speaker 2: direction of the River Leavin. This was the first time

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Speaker 2: that police were able to find any kind of a

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Speaker 2: weakness with the alibi and evidence that the four teens

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Speaker 2: were not at Betty Wilson's home all night as they

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Speaker 2: had claimed. Linda said that she saw Sarah, Robbie, Andrew

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Speaker 2: and Donna and the two children all come back to

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Speaker 2: the Wilson flat about forty minutes to an hour after

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Speaker 2: they left, and when they did, she said they were

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Speaker 2: in highly emotional states. She said she heard a commotion downstairs,

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Speaker 2: a door slamming and shouting. Linda said that Sarah in

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Speaker 2: particular seemed super upset and was yelling, you're a prick,

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Speaker 2: You're a dick. She said that Sarah and Donna were

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Speaker 2: both wailing and that Sarah shouted quote that wasn't meant

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Speaker 2: to happen, that was out of order, that was a

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Speaker 2: setup end quote, and Linda said that she heard other

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Speaker 2: voices talking about being quiet because of the children. When

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Speaker 2: the BBC asked police why they didn't follow this line

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Speaker 2: of investigation in nineteen ninety six, the senior officer said

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Speaker 2: that quote it appeared that the relevant questions were simply

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Speaker 2: not asked.

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Speaker 3: End quote.

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Speaker 2: In court, it came out that the initial officers had

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Speaker 2: only spent a few minutes with Linda and asked very

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Speaker 2: basic questions of her and her neighbors, and then they

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Speaker 2: never came back. One of the investigators stated one of

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Speaker 2: the issues with this investigation was the fact that several

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Speaker 2: potential witnesses were criminals themselves and that it was hard

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Speaker 2: to find them. Also, some were involved in drugs or

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Speaker 2: other things, and they did not want to draw attention

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Speaker 2: to themselves. With law enforcement working on this podcast, I've

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Speaker 2: found this is a global problem. This is a challenge

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Speaker 2: in small towns around the world. By the way, this

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Speaker 2: doesn't apply to Linda and her neighbors. That was, in

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Speaker 2: my opinion, more a case of police doing these very

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Speaker 2: perfunctory interviews and not asking more in depth questions, something

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Speaker 2: that I have sadly seen far too often in investigations

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Speaker 2: as well. It's interesting because this case is thousands of

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Speaker 2: miles from a lot of the cases that I cover,

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Speaker 2: but I see so many parallels other investigations that we

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Speaker 2: have covered in this podcast. Often, in my opinion, police

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Speaker 2: tend to rule out testimony from anyone who was using drugs, which,

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Speaker 2: to be honest, can rule out a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Another factor that stopped people from speaking out may have

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Speaker 2: been fear of Robbie O'Brien and his family. Specifically, the

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Speaker 2: senior officer said in court quote Robbie O'Brien was from

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Speaker 2: a particular family in that area, a family who had

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of control, and there was a certain

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Speaker 2: element of you don't want to.

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Speaker 3: Speak out end quote.

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Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, the investigators were also trying to get

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Speaker 2: more information on Robbie's relationship with Caroline. According to court documents,

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Speaker 2: Caroline's best friend, Joanne, told police that Robbie had told

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Speaker 2: Caroline he would kill her if she kissed someone else.

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Speaker 2: Joanne said she personally had seen Robbie attempt to attack

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Speaker 2: Caroline on numerous occasions and that she had actually intervened

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Speaker 2: in at least one of those attacks, and there was

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Speaker 2: something else that could hint at a potential motive. Two

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Speaker 2: weeks before she died, Caroline told a friend that she

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Speaker 2: had taken a pregnancy test and that it was positive

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Speaker 2: and that Robbie O'Brien was the father. Two weeks before

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Speaker 2: her death, Caroline told a friend of hers named Tracy

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Speaker 2: McFetridge that she had had a positive pregnancy test and

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Speaker 2: she thought Robbie was the father. Now, there was no

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Speaker 2: pregnancy reported on the post mortem examination of Caroline, but

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Speaker 2: investigators think it's very possible that at the time of

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Speaker 2: the murder, Caroline believed that she was pregnant, and reading

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Speaker 2: through these statements, it seems as though the relationship between

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Speaker 2: Robbie and Caroline seemed to be becoming more and more

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Speaker 2: confrontational and could have been headed for disaster. Tracy told

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Speaker 2: police during the early investigation that Robbie's girlfriend, Donna knew

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Speaker 2: that he had been seeing Caroline, and that Donna had

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Speaker 2: told Tracy and Sarah Jane O'Neill that she was going

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Speaker 2: to batter Caroline. Derek Hunner, a cousin of Caroline's, told

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Speaker 2: police that Caroline wrote a letter to Robbie asking him

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Speaker 2: to stay at her house on Saturday night, and that

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Speaker 2: Caroline's mother, Margaret, had found another letter between Caroline and Robbie.

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Speaker 2: According to court documents, Margaret was concerned about the relationship

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Speaker 2: between Robbie and her daughter. She stated to police that

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Speaker 2: Caroline was infatuated with Robbie and that she believed he

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Speaker 2: had given Caroline heroin. The prosecution and police finally believed

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Speaker 2: they had enough evidence to bring charges. In November of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, three suspects, Robbie O'Brien, Donna, Marie Brand,

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Speaker 2: and Andrew Kelly were arrested in charge with Caroline's murder.

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane O'Neill would have been charged as well, according

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Speaker 2: to prosecutors, but she died in July twenty nineteen. Their

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00:24:40,521 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 2: trial began in late twenty twenty three in Glasgow High Court.

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Speaker 2: All three of the accused killers were now in their forties.

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Speaker 2: In the years since nineteen ninety six, Robbie O'Brien had

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Speaker 2: spent time behind bars four drug charges, but also from

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Speaker 2: more serious charges, including ten years for attempted murder and

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00:25:00,321 --> 00:25:04,761
Speaker 2: a serious assault. Now police and prosecutors had to prepare

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Speaker 2: for the trial with no physical evidence and with one

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Speaker 2: of the main witnesses being a four year old child.

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Speaker 2: Archie's witness statement was crucial to this case, but prosecutors

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00:25:16,201 --> 00:25:19,801
Speaker 2: hit a setback because Archie, now in his thirties, was

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Speaker 2: deemed unfit to give evidence a trial. Police talked to

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Speaker 2: Archie's mother and other family members, who said that after

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Speaker 2: what he witnessed that night, he became withdrawn. He was

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Speaker 2: permanently affected by what he claimed he saw that night

385
00:25:33,721 --> 00:25:37,521
Speaker 2: down by the river. According to court documents, he suffered

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Speaker 2: from low intellectual functioning, several mental disorders, and memory loss

387
00:25:42,121 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 2: as a result of alcohol abuse. Because he couldn't testify,

388
00:25:47,121 --> 00:25:49,801
Speaker 2: the investigators needed to find a way to make sure

389
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,481
Speaker 2: that what Archie saw was included at trial, so they

390
00:25:53,521 --> 00:25:56,481
Speaker 2: found a child psychologist. They wanted to get an opinion

391
00:25:56,521 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 2: about the police's interview strategies at the time of the murder, because,

392
00:26:00,681 --> 00:26:03,481
Speaker 2: of course, they were probably worried the defense would claim

393
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Speaker 2: that Archie was being coached. But the child's psychologist testified

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Speaker 2: that in her opinion, Archie's memories were genuine and that

395
00:26:11,321 --> 00:26:16,281
Speaker 2: he had described a lived event. So the psychologists believed

396
00:26:16,721 --> 00:26:19,321
Speaker 2: Archie's statements about being at the river and witnessing the

397
00:26:19,361 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: attack were genuine. They were allowed to be admitted not

398
00:26:23,321 --> 00:26:27,441
Speaker 2: as evidence at trial, but his hearsay. It also came

399
00:26:27,481 --> 00:26:29,921
Speaker 2: out in court that the morning after the murder, Archie

400
00:26:29,961 --> 00:26:33,441
Speaker 2: had slept very late until almost noon after his mom, Betty,

401
00:26:33,481 --> 00:26:36,721
Speaker 2: came home. After Betty came home on the twenty fifth,

402
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,281
Speaker 2: she found Andrew Kelly there with her two boys, and

403
00:26:40,361 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 2: at first everything seemed normal, but when Betty he asked

404
00:26:44,161 --> 00:26:47,601
Speaker 2: about the wet spot on the floor, Andrews said Archie

405
00:26:47,641 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: had urinated on the carpet, but Archie later said that

406
00:26:51,041 --> 00:26:53,641
Speaker 2: Robbie had been at the flat and that Robbie had

407
00:26:53,641 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: been wet. It also came out in court that Archie

408
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,361
Speaker 2: had even more crucial details about the murder. He knew

409
00:27:01,401 --> 00:27:04,921
Speaker 2: about Caroline being attacked in the river, and he said

410
00:27:04,961 --> 00:27:08,281
Speaker 2: he saw Robbie hit Caroline with a stick and a pole.

411
00:27:09,281 --> 00:27:12,961
Speaker 2: He described her having metal in her eye, a detail

412
00:27:13,041 --> 00:27:16,481
Speaker 2: that detectives believe Archie could not have known about unless

413
00:27:16,521 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: he was there. The defense tried to turn the conversation

414
00:27:21,521 --> 00:27:24,401
Speaker 2: to drugs and the possibility that Caroline was going to

415
00:27:24,441 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: buy drugs on the night she was murdered, but the

416
00:27:27,121 --> 00:27:30,641
Speaker 2: prosecution kept bringing back the motive to Robbie and Caroline's

417
00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: romantic relationship. Meanwhile, police found another witness in addition to

418
00:27:35,961 --> 00:27:39,121
Speaker 2: the neighbor, Linda Dorian, who cast out on the fact

419
00:27:39,161 --> 00:27:41,521
Speaker 2: that the four teens were in the flat with Archie

420
00:27:41,521 --> 00:27:45,721
Speaker 2: and James all night. Sharon Gorman was a friend of

421
00:27:45,721 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: Betty Wilson's. She had borrowed a cassette tape from Betty

422
00:27:49,681 --> 00:27:52,721
Speaker 2: and on that night, at around twelve thirty am on

423
00:27:52,721 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 2: August twenty fifth, she knocked on Betty Wilson's door. She

424
00:27:56,561 --> 00:27:59,361
Speaker 2: told police the lights in the flat were on, but

425
00:27:59,401 --> 00:28:05,801
Speaker 2: no one answered. The prosecutors put together a picture of

426
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,761
Speaker 2: what happened in the early morning hours of August twenty fifth,

427
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,041
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, for the jury. They said that Caroline

428
00:28:13,041 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 2: sent a letter to Robbie saying that she wanted to

429
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,761
Speaker 2: meet at midnight, but unbeknownst to Caroline, she was walking

430
00:28:18,801 --> 00:28:22,681
Speaker 2: into an ambush. She had no idea that it wasn't

431
00:28:22,721 --> 00:28:26,561
Speaker 2: just Robbie's showing up that night, but Robbie, his girlfriend

432
00:28:26,641 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: and two of their friends, and that this would be

433
00:28:29,241 --> 00:28:33,521
Speaker 2: a brutal attack. It's not clear exactly who did what

434
00:28:33,681 --> 00:28:36,921
Speaker 2: and when, but we know from Archie's testimony there were

435
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,041
Speaker 2: multiple weapons used, including a stick and a pole. Archie

436
00:28:42,121 --> 00:28:45,441
Speaker 2: also said he saw Andrew Kelly throw rocks at Caroline.

437
00:28:46,281 --> 00:28:51,361
Speaker 2: Prosecutors said this was a premeditated, vicious attack. Court documents

438
00:28:51,401 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: called the killing an evil, concerted crime. This was a

439
00:28:56,481 --> 00:29:00,001
Speaker 2: big question during the trial who was involved with killing

440
00:29:00,041 --> 00:29:05,001
Speaker 2: Caroline and what specifically did they do Because in Scotland

441
00:29:05,081 --> 00:29:08,121
Speaker 2: the rules are slightly different than in the US. Here

442
00:29:08,321 --> 00:29:11,441
Speaker 2: we have the felony murder rule, so depending on the state,

443
00:29:11,921 --> 00:29:14,801
Speaker 2: people can be charged with a felony and sometimes receive

444
00:29:14,881 --> 00:29:17,561
Speaker 2: the same sentence as the actual killer or an even

445
00:29:17,641 --> 00:29:20,041
Speaker 2: larger sentence, even if they were just there when the

446
00:29:20,081 --> 00:29:23,681
Speaker 2: death happens, whether or not it was intended. The laws

447
00:29:23,721 --> 00:29:26,921
Speaker 2: are slightly different, but in Scotland in the UK. In general,

448
00:29:27,321 --> 00:29:29,921
Speaker 2: a person can only be found guilty of a criminal

449
00:29:29,921 --> 00:29:33,041
Speaker 2: act if he or she has participated in that act.

450
00:29:33,481 --> 00:29:36,321
Speaker 2: Someone who was just there but played no part is

451
00:29:36,361 --> 00:29:40,881
Speaker 2: classified as a mere bystander. But and this part is crucial,

452
00:29:41,281 --> 00:29:44,481
Speaker 2: the law also clearly states that a person can participate

453
00:29:44,481 --> 00:29:48,001
Speaker 2: in an assault without actually throwing punches. The law says

454
00:29:48,521 --> 00:29:50,921
Speaker 2: when there is prior agreement to commit the assault, and

455
00:29:51,001 --> 00:29:54,601
Speaker 2: the person was a party to that agreement, meaning that quote,

456
00:29:55,001 --> 00:29:58,441
Speaker 2: any degree of participation is sufficient to make the accused

457
00:29:58,481 --> 00:30:00,961
Speaker 2: responsible for what the other part of your parties do,

458
00:30:01,481 --> 00:30:03,961
Speaker 2: provided that it does not go beyond the extent of

459
00:30:03,961 --> 00:30:07,921
Speaker 2: what was agreed end quote. The law also says that

460
00:30:08,041 --> 00:30:11,241
Speaker 2: providing moral support to the person attacking the victim or

461
00:30:11,281 --> 00:30:16,081
Speaker 2: threatening or intimidating the victim can countess participation. And that's

462
00:30:16,081 --> 00:30:21,001
Speaker 2: what happened here because crucially, at trial, the pathologists to

463
00:30:21,041 --> 00:30:24,481
Speaker 2: examine Carolyne testified that it wasn't just Robbie who was

464
00:30:24,521 --> 00:30:28,161
Speaker 2: responsible for her death. The pathologists pointed out the people

465
00:30:28,241 --> 00:30:30,841
Speaker 2: with her killer did not help Caroline or try to

466
00:30:30,881 --> 00:30:34,361
Speaker 2: save her. They just left her there to die. Judge

467
00:30:34,441 --> 00:30:37,801
Speaker 2: Lord Braid stated in court that Robbie was the ringleader

468
00:30:37,921 --> 00:30:41,001
Speaker 2: and used extreme violence during the killing. He said that

469
00:30:41,041 --> 00:30:45,321
Speaker 2: Andrew Kelly was also involved in inflicting murderous violence on Caroline,

470
00:30:46,721 --> 00:30:50,681
Speaker 2: and because Donna knew this was a premeditated attack, she

471
00:30:50,841 --> 00:31:03,001
Speaker 2: was also charged. On December fourteenth, twenty twenty three, Andrew Kelly,

472
00:31:03,121 --> 00:31:06,401
Speaker 2: Robbie O'Brien, and Donna Marie Brand were found guilty of

473
00:31:06,441 --> 00:31:10,801
Speaker 2: Caroline's murder. They were all given life sentences, but life

474
00:31:10,801 --> 00:31:13,121
Speaker 2: in the UK and life in the US can mean

475
00:31:13,161 --> 00:31:17,161
Speaker 2: two very different things. In the UK, they very rarely

476
00:31:17,241 --> 00:31:21,121
Speaker 2: have life without the possibility of parole. Robbie was found

477
00:31:21,161 --> 00:31:23,681
Speaker 2: to be the main perpetrator. He was given a minimum

478
00:31:23,721 --> 00:31:26,881
Speaker 2: sentence of twenty two years. Andrew Kelly was ordered to

479
00:31:26,881 --> 00:31:30,601
Speaker 2: serve at least eighteen years in prison. Donna Marie Brand

480
00:31:30,681 --> 00:31:33,201
Speaker 2: was forty four years old and, according to media reports,

481
00:31:33,521 --> 00:31:35,641
Speaker 2: had been off drug since two thousand and three and

482
00:31:35,721 --> 00:31:39,241
Speaker 2: had a lot of health problems, including a blood disorder, epilepsy,

483
00:31:39,321 --> 00:31:42,801
Speaker 2: and chronic depression. She appeared in court in a wheelchair.

484
00:31:43,881 --> 00:31:47,961
Speaker 2: Despite all this, Donna was assessed as being at moderate

485
00:31:48,041 --> 00:31:51,001
Speaker 2: risk of reoffending, so she was sentenced to a minimum

486
00:31:51,001 --> 00:31:58,281
Speaker 2: of seventeen years in prison, Detective Inspector Stuart Granger told

487
00:31:58,321 --> 00:32:00,921
Speaker 2: the press, quote, at the heart of this is a mother,

488
00:32:01,201 --> 00:32:04,841
Speaker 2: a father, extended family and friends who have had to

489
00:32:04,961 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: endure years of not knowing who killed Caroline. For years,

490
00:32:09,241 --> 00:32:12,681
Speaker 2: this community has lived under a dark cloud, wondering if

491
00:32:12,721 --> 00:32:16,801
Speaker 2: Caroline's killers walked among them. Nothing will bring Caroline back

492
00:32:16,961 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: or less than the heartache her family and friends live with.

493
00:32:20,121 --> 00:32:23,321
Speaker 2: But I hope that seeing those responsible paying for their

494
00:32:23,401 --> 00:32:25,921
Speaker 2: crime offers them some level of comfort.

495
00:32:26,241 --> 00:32:27,361
Speaker 3: End quote.

496
00:32:27,921 --> 00:32:30,841
Speaker 2: Caroline's mother has said she was overjoyed by that verdict.

497
00:32:31,361 --> 00:32:33,561
Speaker 2: She said the murder of her daughter was a void

498
00:32:33,601 --> 00:32:35,961
Speaker 2: that would never be filled, so for her, they would

499
00:32:36,001 --> 00:32:40,201
Speaker 2: never be true closure, but she did feel that there

500
00:32:40,241 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: had been justice. The judge stated that even the donna

501
00:32:44,561 --> 00:32:47,321
Speaker 2: did not take part in the assault, that she shared

502
00:32:47,361 --> 00:32:51,441
Speaker 2: responsibility for the crime because she left Caroline face down

503
00:32:51,481 --> 00:32:55,361
Speaker 2: in the river, and in court it was reaffirmed that

504
00:32:55,481 --> 00:32:58,681
Speaker 2: experts believed that even though Caroline had been brutally and

505
00:32:58,761 --> 00:33:02,161
Speaker 2: viciously beaten with multiple weapons and had rocks thrown at

506
00:33:02,161 --> 00:33:06,041
Speaker 2: her and her skull was fractured, she was unconscious but

507
00:33:06,161 --> 00:33:10,321
Speaker 2: alive when she went into that water, so someone might

508
00:33:10,361 --> 00:33:12,281
Speaker 2: have been able to save her if they had gotten

509
00:33:12,321 --> 00:33:15,361
Speaker 2: her immediate medical help or even pulled her out of

510
00:33:15,401 --> 00:33:19,001
Speaker 2: the water, but they didn't. They left her there to

511
00:33:19,161 --> 00:33:24,761
Speaker 2: die beside the river. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen

512
00:33:24,801 --> 00:33:30,241
Speaker 2: Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murderline is a production of

513
00:33:30,281 --> 00:33:33,721
Speaker 2: School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated

514
00:33:33,721 --> 00:33:37,801
Speaker 2: by me Catherine Townshend and produced by Gabby Watts. Special

515
00:33:37,801 --> 00:33:40,641
Speaker 2: thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance and James

516
00:33:40,641 --> 00:33:45,041
Speaker 2: Wheaton for legal review. Noah camer mixed and score this episode.

517
00:33:45,241 --> 00:33:49,001
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Ben Sale, Executive producers of

518
00:33:49,081 --> 00:33:53,081
Speaker 2: Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and LC Crowley. Listen to Helen

519
00:33:53,121 --> 00:33:56,001
Speaker 2: Gone ad free by subscribing to the iHeart True Prime

520
00:33:56,041 --> 00:33:59,681
Speaker 2: Plush channel on Apple Podcasts. If you were interested in

521
00:33:59,681 --> 00:34:02,921
Speaker 2: seeing documents and materials from the case, you can follow

522
00:34:02,921 --> 00:34:07,241
Speaker 2: the show on Instagram at Helen gonpod. If you have

523
00:34:07,321 --> 00:34:09,681
Speaker 2: a case you'd like me and my team to look into,

524
00:34:09,841 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: you can reach out to us at our Helen Gone

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00:34:11,681 --> 00:34:15,401
Speaker 2: Murder Line at six seven eight seven four four six

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00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 2: one four five at six seven eight seven four four

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00:34:19,681 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: six one four five.

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Speaker 1: School of Humans