1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grossel from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: Protests after masked ICE agents descended on Charlotte, North Carolina 3 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 2: over the weekend in the latest federal immigration crackdown in 4 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: a democratic city, Governor Josh Stein encouraged residents to stay 5 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: peaceful and to record any unusual interactions with ICE. 6 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,279 Speaker 3: Everyone wants to be safe in their communities, but the 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 3: actions of too many federal agents are doing the exact opposite. 8 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 3: In Charlotte, We've seen masked, heavily armed agents and paramilitary 9 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 3: garb driving unmarked cars, targeting American citizens based on their 10 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: skin color, racially profiling and picking up random people in 11 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 3: parking lots and off of our sidewalks, going after landscapers, 12 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 3: simply decorating a Christmas tree in someone's front yard, and 13 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 3: entering churches and stores to grab people. This is not 14 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 3: making us safer. It's stoking fear and dividing our community. 15 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 2: My guest is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partner 16 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: at Hollanden Knight. Leon why the federal immigration cracked down 17 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: in Charlotte. 18 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 4: Well, basically, what's happened is that the administration has decided 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 4: that the pace of immigration enforcement is moving way too 20 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 4: slowly for its liking, and so it's going to try 21 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 4: to move its operations to cities where it can still 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 4: yield large numbers of people without status, but nevertheless does 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 4: not get the kind of friction that it has been 24 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 4: getting in cities where there is both United State government 25 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 4: and local government that is against the ICE immigration operations. 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 4: So what are the places that ICE has decided to 27 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 4: move operation to Is Charlotte, North Carolina, because again, even 28 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 4: though there is a lot of democratic local government they 29 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 4: are in the city, nevertheless it's still a more conservative 30 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 4: area of the country. The courts are in a more 31 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: conservative circuit, the fourth circuit, And so the idea is 32 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 4: that ICE would move its operation there to try to 33 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 4: again begin trying to establish precedent that it can use 34 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 4: reasonable suspicion to apprehend people and if necessary, plays people 35 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 4: into deportation proceedings. Meanwhile actually having large numbers of people 36 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 4: going in and doing fugitive operations as well. And so 37 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 4: you have that, but then you do have a democratic 38 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 4: governor there in North Carolina, and you have a democratic mayor, 39 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 4: and so from that standpoint, it's going to be very 40 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 4: interesting to see how this plays out of it'll play 41 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 4: out where they try to operate with the same script Chicago, 42 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 4: or will it play out because the courts in Charlotte 43 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 4: are not as progressive as the courts in Chicago were, 44 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 4: that this would be a great place to establish president 45 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 4: for the Trump administration that they can use their reasonable 46 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 4: suspicion and start apprehending people just who are generally walking 47 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 4: or at suspicious locations around Charlotte. 48 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: In a case that went to the Supreme Court on 49 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: the Emergency docket, the contention was that ICE was making 50 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: stops based on racial profiling, and the Supreme Court didn't 51 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: stop them from doing that, So what are they trying 52 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: to prove here? 53 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 4: Well, the difference is that in Chicago, there was an 54 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 4: order of operations that had been established by the District 55 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 4: Court that basically was still having ICE reporting to the 56 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 4: District Court with regard to having the use of body 57 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 4: cameras and and having transparency with regard to each of 58 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 4: its interactions with people and trying to figure out if 59 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 4: there really was reasonable suspicion for stops or was it 60 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: really all just racial profiling. And from that perspective, I 61 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 4: believe that even though the daily check ins with the 62 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 4: district judge were were not allowed any Further, I do 63 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 4: believe that perhaps there was this feeling that there had 64 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 4: been too much resistance in Chicago that it wasn't worth it. 65 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 5: To continue there. 66 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 4: And so I think the idea is try to go 67 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 4: to a jurisdiction that has similar yields of population in 68 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 4: order to be able to apprehend people, get the numbers 69 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 4: of deportation up, but that if that gets challenged, you 70 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 4: would be in the fourth Circuit, and the Fourth Circuit 71 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 4: is just demonstrably more conservative than the Seventh Circuit, and 72 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 4: then also the district judges in Chicago, and so the 73 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 4: idea would be that potentially good president for the t 74 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 4: administration could be established there with regard to how the 75 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 4: apprehensions are to be done, how people are to be 76 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: detained once they are apprehended, and the deportation of these 77 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 4: people once they are both apprehended and detained. And so 78 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 4: I believe that's what they're trying to accomplish here in Charlotte. 79 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 5: But we're gonna have. 80 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 4: To wait to see how this actually operates in practice. 81 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: The Border Protection Commander Gregory Bevino, who is the face 82 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 2: of Border patrol and has led the operations in La 83 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: Chicago and now Charlotte. Well, he admitted in a deposition 84 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 2: that he'd lied when he said he was hit by 85 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: a rock before he threw a canister of tear gas. 86 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 2: Did it seem like he sort of left Chicago because 87 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: a district judge was onto him. 88 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 4: Again, This is all part of they're going to try 89 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 4: to yield success in operations where they feel they can 90 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 4: yield success. And I do think it looks like the 91 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: operational crew that had started the operation in Chicago has 92 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 4: moved indeed to Charlotte for this operation that they're calling 93 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 4: Charlotte's Web, And they're trying to basically operate with these 94 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 4: reasonable suspicion based stops where they can say we're using 95 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 4: the criteria given by Supreme Court Justice Kavanov. You know 96 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 4: that as long as they are brief and they are contextual, 97 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 4: and they're not one hundred percent race based, but that 98 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 4: they have other factors in them, such as potentially known 99 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 4: presence in certain locations and known types of jobs that 100 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 4: people are congregating in where large yields of population of 101 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 4: people without status might be done, that those might be 102 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 4: considered reasonable suspicion, and so as long as they follow 103 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 4: that guidance, it appears that they'll be able to engage 104 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 4: in these operations. And then the question will be would 105 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 4: the Attorney General in North Carolina file any thing that 106 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 4: would actually challenge this? Would they end up getting similar 107 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 4: results from Chicago, where these operations ended up being very 108 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 4: closely scrutinized by the courts basically every single apprehension. 109 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 5: Or are they going to be allowed to. 110 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 4: Establish a president in Charlotte which they can then take 111 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 4: to other locations along the South, such as Memphis and 112 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 4: New Orleans and other places Atlanta where they might be 113 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 4: able to try to get different results than what had 114 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 4: been yielded in Chicago and Los Angeles. 115 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, are there any Republican cities 116 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: with large numbers of immigrants who are possibly there illegally? 117 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: Are there any Republican cities that the Trump administration can 118 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: go into or is it only democratic cities? 119 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 4: Well, I mean this is the issue is many of 120 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 4: the largest cities in America do not have Republican mayors. 121 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 5: So that's one of the problems. 122 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 4: They may have Republican governors, they may have Republican attorney general. 123 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 5: So you're thinking of, for. 124 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 4: Instance, in Texas, there's a lot of cities where you know, 125 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 4: you have democratic mayors, but you have the Republican governor 126 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 4: of Texas, you have the Republican attorney general. But in 127 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 4: terms of big cities, I mean maybe you have Dallas 128 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 4: might be one, or Fort Worth might be another. Oklahoma 129 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 4: City might be another, but it's not really a large 130 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 4: group of big cities that have Republican mayors. And so 131 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 4: I think there's some stat that says maybe eight out 132 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 4: of the largest fifty cities have Republican mayors, and the 133 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: three biggest ones are Fort Worth, Dallas in Oklahoma City. 134 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 4: So maybe they will go there, But the truth is 135 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 4: ICE is already operating pretty heavily in Texas, and so 136 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 4: there's not really much more that ICE can be doing 137 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 4: in Texas. With regard to Oklahoma City, I don't know. 138 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 4: Maybe they will try to go there, but that hasn't 139 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 4: been on the list of places there to go to 140 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 4: at the moment. 141 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: There was a story that you know, they're looking into 142 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: having an ICE facility on Staten Island. That's led to 143 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: speculation that after Zorimandami takes office as mayor of New 144 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: York that the administration is going to send ICE agents 145 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: into New York City the way it has in Chicago 146 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: and LA and Charlotte. 147 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 5: I'm not thinking this as part of any insight knowledge. 148 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 4: I'm just saying this is part of just knowledge generally 149 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 4: of how this system works. Is you would never try 150 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 4: to use the Coastguard facility on Staten Island to hold 151 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 4: detainees unless they one hundred percent happened to be from 152 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 4: New York City. And the reason for that is because 153 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 4: previously the detainees from New York used to get sent 154 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 4: to New Jersey. And the reason they would get sent 155 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 4: to New Jersey one it was obviously cheaper too logistically 156 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 4: there was. 157 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 5: More capacity at three. 158 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 4: The Second Circuit is considered normally more liberal than the 159 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 4: Third Circuit, even though Third tart that had been liberal 160 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 4: in some instances. Normally, the Third Circuit is considered a 161 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 4: more conservative court than the Second Circuit, so that once 162 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 4: you detain people in New York City and you move 163 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 4: them over to the Third Circuit, you're much more likely 164 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 4: to get a conservative opinion in whether it's a detention case, 165 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: a removal case, or anything else. Putting them in Staten 166 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 4: Island then subjects you not just to the Second Circuit, 167 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 4: but also to the Southern District of New York. And 168 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 4: the Southern District of New York is a very, very 169 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 4: progressive court. It's not at all like almost any other 170 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: court in America because you've had two Democratic senators in 171 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 4: New York for decades and they have had great influence 172 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 4: over the judges that have been appointed in New York. 173 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 4: And so it's very, very unlikely that any good case 174 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 4: law would come out of detaining people in Staten Island. 175 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 4: And so the only reason you would do it is 176 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 4: to say, we are going to have a major crackdown 177 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 4: in New York City, and this is space that we 178 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 4: want in order to engage in that correctown. 179 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 2: Well, I hope you're right about that. Leon. Coming up 180 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: next on the Bloomberg Lanne Show, the Supreme Court agreed 181 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 2: today to review an immigrant's right to seek asylum at 182 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 2: the border. I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Boomberg. 183 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: The Supreme Court has agreed to review the policy of 184 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 2: denying migrants the chance to apply for asylum if they 185 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: haven't set foot on American soil, in the practice known 186 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: as metering border agents turn back potential asylum seekers before 187 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: they cross into the US to limit the numbers seeking asylum. 188 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: The Ninth Circuit ruled that The Ninth Circuit ruled that 189 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: metering violates the migrants' constitutional rights and a federal law 190 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: requiring officials to screen anyone who shows up at ports 191 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: of entry seeking asylum. The Trump administration and appeal that 192 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: decision to the Supreme Court. I've been talking to immigration 193 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: attorney Leon Fresco of Holland and Knight. 194 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: Leon. 195 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: There are a couple of legal fights going on over asylum. 196 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 4: There's a lot of different parts of the asylum system 197 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 4: that are all eventually going to work their way up 198 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 4: to the Supreme Court. The most important one not being 199 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 4: this case, but just being generally the case that will 200 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 4: discuss whether by executive fiat, the president has the authority 201 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 4: to basically end asylum in the United States for people 202 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 4: who cross the border illegally. That case is working its 203 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 4: way up, and there's DC case law talking about that 204 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 4: the Trump administration may not have the authority to unilaterally 205 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 4: do that To just say if you cross the border illegally, 206 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 4: you can't get asylum. 207 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 5: This is slightly different. 208 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 4: This then would say, because when you have that discuss 209 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 4: that we just talked about, can you get asylum if 210 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 4: you cross the border illegally. There's a talking point that 211 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 4: then gets offered by the people who don't want individuals 212 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 4: crossing the border illegally to get asylum. They say, why 213 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 4: don't you do it the right way and go to 214 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 4: a port of jury. So everybody says, well, gee, that 215 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 4: certainly makes a lot of sense. Do it the right way, 216 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 4: go to a port of entry. Don't just run across 217 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 4: the border and cause chaos, you know, present yourself to 218 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 4: someone who's there, who's prepared, ready to examine the case, 219 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 4: et cetera. 220 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 5: So far, so good. 221 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 4: But there have been policies in both the Trump administration 222 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 4: and the Biden administration that say, hold on, we're not 223 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 4: going to let you go in through the port of 224 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 4: entry either because whether it was COVID or just they 225 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 4: don't want people going through the port of entry. We 226 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: don't want that either. We don't want anybody coming in 227 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 4: from the southern border asking for asylum. So here then 228 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 4: comes the question if that human being had come across 229 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 4: the port of entry and entered in the US side 230 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 4: of the port of entry, we'd be in the same 231 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 4: situation we were in when we're talking about the person 232 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 4: who illegally crosses. Then we're just in that Supreme Court 233 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 4: land that we don't know where it's gonna end up, 234 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 4: which can be executive by FIAT ban people from coming 235 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 4: in for asylum. Okay, there's that one, but this is different. 236 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 4: This is what if the US gets to you physically 237 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 4: while you're on the Mexican side of the port of entry, 238 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 4: so your body never makes it to the US. Are 239 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 4: you still eligible to apply for asylum or has the 240 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 4: US basically made it impossible for you to go into court? 241 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 4: Because it would be the same thing as if you 242 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 4: were saying, why can't I apply for asylum from New 243 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 4: Zealand or from Australia. 244 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 5: I don't get it. 245 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 4: I should just be allowed to just announce that I 246 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 4: have an asylum claim to some American at an embassy 247 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 4: and in Australia or in New Zealand. Should be allowed 248 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 4: to do that. And if I'm not allowed to do that, 249 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 4: I should be able to sue in court that's not allowed. 250 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 4: You can't if you live in New Zealand just go 251 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 4: to a US embassy and ask for an asylum or 252 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 4: you can't if you live in Australia, go to a 253 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 4: US embassy and ask for asylum, and if they say no, 254 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 4: go to a federal court. But the Ninth Circuit said 255 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 4: that if you get stopped on the Mexican side of 256 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 4: the US port of entry, if you're trying to arrive 257 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 4: in the United States and the only reason you don't 258 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 4: arrive is because the US stops you from arriving, that 259 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 4: that would still be considered an arrival in the United 260 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 4: States for the purpose of triggering all of these asylum 261 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 4: questions about whether you're eligible to apply for asylum, whether 262 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 4: the US can't let you stay in Mexico, they have 263 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 4: to bring you in if you have a credible fear, 264 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 4: they have to let you make your case in the 265 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 4: United States. 266 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 5: And so that's really the issue. Now. 267 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: They're not using this metering process. So why is the 268 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: Trump ad minntest bothering to appeal it to the Supreme Court? 269 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 4: The Trump administration decided because I think what happens is 270 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 4: they're concerned that the current administrative ban that they have 271 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 4: on asylum might be taken away, and if that happens, 272 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 4: then they're going to try to say, well, you know, 273 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 4: go in through the port of entry, but again limiting 274 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 4: who can come in through the port of entry. So 275 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 4: they're going to want the discretion to be able to say, look, 276 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 4: we're letting in some people through the port of entry 277 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: to apply for asylum each day, but if you're not 278 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 4: one of the fifty people, let's say, because they're going 279 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 4: to try to make the number low, if you're not 280 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 4: one of the fifty people that's letting him in, just 281 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 4: because we apprehend you on the Mexican side of the 282 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: border doesn't mean you've now succeeded in being able to 283 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 4: make an asylum claim. 284 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 5: And so the. 285 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 4: Ninth Circuit had said, yes, that person should be given 286 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 4: the right. 287 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 5: To apply for asylum. 288 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 4: But what subsequently happened is the Biden administration took away 289 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 4: that policy, and so the immigrants' rights advocates are saying, 290 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 4: this is mood, this is not a thing anymore, because 291 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 4: the Trump administration really isn't relying on this. 292 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 5: They're relying on the. 293 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 4: Nobody gets asylum in the Southern Border period executive fiat. 294 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 4: They're not relying on this argument anymore about we've apprehended 295 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 4: you at the port of entry, so it's mood, you 296 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 4: shouldn't decide this. But the Trump administration is trying to 297 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 4: say it's not moot, and it looks like the Supreme 298 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 4: Court has agreed that it's not mood that they want 299 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 4: to actually come to a decision, which I believe if 300 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 4: they've taken cert means they're very likely to overturn the 301 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 4: Ninth Circuit's decision that says that if you are in 302 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 4: Mexico and trying to arrive in the US, you have 303 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 4: basically succeeded in presenting yourself for an asylum claim. I 304 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 4: think they will overturn that, it seems like, and they 305 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 4: will say no, no, no, your body actually has to 306 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: make it into the US in order to trigger your 307 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 4: rights to apply for asylum. Otherwise, where do we draw 308 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 4: the line again? Can you do this in Australia, Can 309 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 4: you do this in New Zealand, etc. 310 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 5: Etc. 311 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: I don't think there are too many people in Australia 312 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: or New Zealand right now trying to get asylum in 313 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: the United States. 314 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 5: Or the Ocean period. 315 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 4: You know, if you're coming in and you're two miles 316 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,239 Speaker 4: out from the US and we interdict you, does that 317 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 4: mean you've succeeded and now you can apply for asylum. 318 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 4: And so those are the tough questions here. 319 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: So let's turn to this on Bank ruling from the 320 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 2: DC Circuit Court of Appeals. It's a little confusing. So 321 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 2: this goes back to the situation where Judge Boseburg was 322 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: trying to figure out whether or not the Trump administration 323 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: was sending Venezuelans to El Salvador, to that prison in 324 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: l Salvador, and he asked them to turn around whatever 325 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 2: flights are on their way, and the question is whether 326 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: they lied to him correct. 327 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 4: This is sort of two separate cases. The first case 328 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 4: is about the substance of whether a habeas petition could 329 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 4: be used to challenge the fact that a law from 330 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 4: seventeen ninety eight called the Alien Enemies Act allowed the 331 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 4: government to basically identify anyone had thought was a foreign 332 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 4: national and send them to El Salvador so long as 333 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: they thought that person was an enumerated gang member from 334 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 4: trend to Ragua, Venezuela because they said that that was 335 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 4: an alien enemy. So there was a lot of things 336 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 4: to review. Conceivably, are you an American or not? Are 337 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 4: you trend to Aragua or not? Does this allow you 338 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: to get sent to El Salvador all of these things, 339 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 4: and that's still working its way through the courts about 340 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 4: the constitutionality of all of this. But what the Supreme 341 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 4: Court ultimately said is a habeas in DC is the 342 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 4: wrong place to do this, or an administrative procedure at 343 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 4: case in DC is also the wrong place to do this. 344 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 4: You've got to do it in the district in which 345 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 4: the person was detained. And so they sent those cases 346 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 4: to Texas and other places where the people who were 347 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 4: going to be sent to Venezuela were actually detained. And 348 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 4: you know, there's a lot of debate about how much 349 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 4: time you have to file one. 350 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 5: Of these cases, et cetera. 351 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 4: So that's case number one, the substance, but case number two, 352 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 4: the sort of what I would call the anciliary part 353 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 4: of the case, would be that the judge was upset 354 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 4: with how the substance was argued, even though the judge 355 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 4: apparently doesn't have jurisdiction to view any of the substance anymore. 356 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 4: Of this case, the judge said, when I thought I did, 357 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 4: and when everybody thought I did, you the government engage 358 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 4: in actions that I'm worried violated content of court. And 359 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 4: so then there was an appeal about, well, can the 360 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 4: court continue along these lines of trying to hold the 361 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 4: government in criminal content and to identify the officials who 362 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 4: the court is concerned may or may not have made 363 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 4: misrepresentations to the court about flights to El Salvador that 364 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 4: were or weren't happening, or should or shouldn't have been happening. 365 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 4: And then they were potentially stonewalling the court about not 366 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 4: wanting to give information about who did what, who said what, 367 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 4: et cetera. 368 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 5: And so what happened. 369 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 4: Was was there was a appeal where the government said, look, 370 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 4: we're done with the District Court Judge just Boseburg here 371 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: and we're trying to get what's called the rid of 372 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,239 Speaker 4: man damis saying we don't want to be part of 373 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 4: this anymore. We don't want to have to talk to 374 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 4: Judge Bosburg about identifying responsible officials, naming them, saying what 375 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 4: they did, et cetera. What happened was there was a 376 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 4: two to one decision from the Court of Appeals in 377 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 4: BC saying that okay, fine, Judge Boseburg, We're gonna grant 378 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 4: what's called a writ of mandamus, which is very very 379 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 4: rare where the court basically stops another judge from doing something, 380 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 4: And what the DC Circuit said two to one is 381 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 4: we're going to just stop the judge from trying to 382 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 4: identify responsible officials in order to maybe hold them in 383 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 4: criminal content. So then the plaintiffs in the case, who 384 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 4: are the people representing the El Salvador and deportees who 385 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 4: are Venezuelan, they petitioned for rehearing and bank saying that's 386 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 4: not fair that the court should be able. 387 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 5: To hold the government in content. 388 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 4: And so the issue again in this case was well, 389 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 4: was the panel correct to issue this rid ofm man 390 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 4: damus against the judge, And the en banc panel did 391 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,719 Speaker 4: say yes, the panel was correct in issuing mandamus against 392 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 4: the judge. But there were several judges in the DC 393 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 4: Circuit who expressed serious concerns about what they felt was 394 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 4: government misconduct, and so they said, look, let Judge Bozburg 395 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 4: continue on with his content in and yes, he can't 396 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 4: go and start trying to go through every single part 397 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 4: of who knows what and. 398 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 5: Who did what. But at the end of the day, 399 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 5: if specific lawyers that. 400 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 4: Were in front of him did lie to him, he 401 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 4: can and should be able to move forward with a 402 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 4: contemp proceeding, and so we're gonna have to wait and 403 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 4: see if that actually ends up being the case or not. 404 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 4: But he's gonna have a hearing and they're gonna go 405 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 4: back and look at that specific issue. So maybe not 406 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 4: go through and start sanctioning all of the government officials 407 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 4: that may have been involved in the deportation itself, but 408 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 4: at least the lawyers who went in, if there were 409 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 4: any that actually made this representation to Judge Bozburg, those 410 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 4: might actually still end up being in contempt unless a 411 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 4: future order comes from either the DC Circuit or the 412 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 4: Supreme Court that says no, no, no, We're. 413 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 5: Done with all of this. 414 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 4: But they did an issue We're done with all of 415 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 4: this order, so the issue still continues, oddly enough, in 416 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 4: this bizarre context. 417 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: It is a long and winding case. Thanks as always, Leon. 418 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 2: That's Leon Fresco of Holland and Knight. Coming up next, 419 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: the Justice Department's sudden settlement talks with former Trump officials. 420 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg. The Justice Department has been discussing settlements 421 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,120 Speaker 2: with two former officials from Donald Trump's first term, who, 422 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 2: like the President, claim their owed multimillion dollar payouts from 423 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: the US government as victims of politically motivated actions. Trump's 424 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 2: first national security advisor, Michael Flynn and former senior White 425 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: House lawyer Stefan Pasantino have been in talks with the 426 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: Trump administration since at least late summer. The negotiations mark 427 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: a shift from the Justice Department's position during the Biden administration, 428 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: where government lawyers successfully fought both cases. Joining me is 429 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News reporter Zoe Tillman, Who's been looking into these negotiations. So, Zoe, 430 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: why are Flynn and Pasentinos suing the government? 431 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: So they have two very different lawsuits stemming from two 432 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: sort of very different big investigations surrounding Trump and Trump World. 433 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: Michael Flynn is the older case. He was Trump's first 434 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: national security advisor for a very brief moment in time, 435 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: and then faced prosecution by the Special Counsel Robert Muller 436 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: in connection with the Russia probe, where he was charged 437 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: with lying to investigators pretty early on in that investigation, 438 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: sort of pre Muller's appointment about his contacts during the 439 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen twenty seventeen transition period with a Russian official, 440 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: and at first Michael Flynn pleaded guilty, entered a plea deal, 441 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: admitted lying, but then changed course dramatically hard one eighty. 442 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: He brought on new lawyers, Sidney Powell, who would go 443 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: on to become sort of a very bold face name, 444 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: but was not really in the spotlight at the time, 445 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: and you know, backtracked on that and fought the prosecution 446 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: tooth and nail and wound up having his case dismissed 447 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: by then A G. Bill Barr. He was subsequently full 448 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: out pardoned by Trump near the end of his first term. 449 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: So Michael Flynn sued and said this was a malicious prosecution, 450 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: this was an unlawful targeting of me, and he was 451 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: seeking fifty million dollars for the harms that he suffered 452 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: for that. So Trump loses the election. January sixth happened. 453 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: There's then a congressional investigation into January sixth, and Stefan 454 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: Pasentino is a lawyer for a number of witnesses who 455 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: are called as part of that investigation. At least some 456 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: of them are being paid by a Trump affiliated pack 457 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: and his clients include Cassidy Hutchinson, who was a former 458 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: White House aide to Mark Meadows, and he represented her, 459 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: and then he didn't represent her. She gets new lawyers 460 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: and goes on to testify in front of a nationwide 461 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: televised audience. You know that, among other things, she heard 462 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: Trump lunged at someone in a car on January sixth. 463 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: It was sort of this very dramatic, explosive moment. And 464 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: Pasentino subsequently was accused of sort of urging Cassidy Hutchinson 465 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: to mislead, if not be untruthful to the committee, a 466 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: claim that he has flat out denied. So he files 467 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: suit later saying that the committee and its staff leaked 468 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: information about his work with Cassidy to promote this false 469 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: narrative about him that he committed misconduct ethical breach. So 470 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: we have sort of two lawsuits that you know, on paper, 471 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: are very unconnected, but of a same feather. 472 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: The Biden administration fought both these cases, and one. 473 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: That's right, you know, part of why we this is 474 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: something we were looking at was they both started by 475 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: filing administrative claims with the agencies before going to court. 476 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: And it's a process that's sort of gotten rash attention 477 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: right now because it's the same process that Donald Trump 478 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: is pursuing at the administrative level trying to get according 479 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: to the New York Times, two hundred and thirty million dollars, 480 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: also because he says he was wronged by government actors. So, 481 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, Flynn and Pasentinoes start with that process. They 482 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: say they don't hear back within the six month or 483 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: so period, so they sue, and the Justice Department under 484 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: President Biden fights both of these cases and says these are, 485 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, not merit cases. They're legally deficient, they're procedurally deficient. 486 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: And in both instances the Justice Department wins. They get 487 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: an order dismissing Flynn's case, they get an order dismissing 488 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: Pasentino's case. In Lynn's case, the judge dismisses it but says, 489 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: I give you leave to file an invented complaint. You know, 490 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: you can come back and try again. So this happens 491 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: at the very end of twenty twenty four. Obviously there's 492 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: an election. Trump comes back to office, so Flynn's case 493 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: is not dead in the water, and his lawyers asked 494 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: for extensions, saying, you know, Trump is releasing new information 495 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: about them all er probe, we want to have more 496 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: time to update our complaint and the judge says it's fine. 497 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: DJ doesn't oppose this, and at the same time Pasentino 498 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: he appeals, he appeals his loss to the Eleventh Circuit. 499 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: You know, sort of interesting about this timeline is up 500 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: until this summer, DJ under Trump continues to fight his case. 501 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: So they file their brief in the Eleventh Circuit saying 502 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: the lower court judges order should be upheld. This was 503 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: not a meritorious case. The judge didn't make any errors. 504 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: So you know, both cases are sort of either in 505 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: limbo or continually, you know, being opposed by the Justice 506 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: departm And what we found then was by September there 507 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: are filings in both dockets saying one point eighty DJ 508 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: is now in settlement talks with both of them, and 509 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: this is the first time in either case that we've 510 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: seen that type of disclosure, and you know, there's very 511 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: little information on what's happening, what's being discussed. In both cases, 512 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: there are notices saying we need to pause because we 513 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: are now newly in settlement talks. And this is the 514 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: moment when I also sort of share that there is 515 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: a common feature of these cases, which is that Flynn 516 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: and Pasentino have the same lawyer. His name is Jesse Banal, 517 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: and he's represented Trump individually, He's represented his past campaign organizations. 518 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: He had been part of Sidney Powell's team representing Michael 519 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: Flynn back in the day. You know, it does work 520 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: for a number of conservative, Republican right leaning clients. So 521 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, there is this common feature in both cases, 522 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: which is the same lawyer has a relationship with the 523 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: president and this administration, you know, by the end of 524 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: the summer is in settlement talks with the government. 525 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 2: Did anything happen to change things or that's not known. 526 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: You know, there's nothing in the public filings to indicate that, 527 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: and so far in our reporting that hasn't been confirmed. 528 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 1: You we just know that this is sort of an 529 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: ongoing effort dialogue issue that the president and his administration 530 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: have been very concerned about consistently since he took office, 531 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: which is working backwards and trying to undo decisions by 532 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: high level to mid level government actors across the federal 533 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: government that they see as wrong, illegal, evidence of political bias, weaponization. 534 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: It's a lot of different terms. It was a new 535 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: development in the cases, but a continuation of something that 536 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: has been a priority for this administration. 537 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,239 Speaker 2: So the Justice Department is negotiating the deal. Is there 538 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: any oversight over the Justice Department's decision. Let's say the 539 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: Justice Department tomorrow says fifty million dollars to Michael Flynn, 540 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 2: any oversight at all? 541 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: You know, like most settlements in court, there is you know, 542 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: a final act of discretion by a judge when they 543 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: move to dismiss a case when there's a settlement. That's 544 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: not something that they can do unilaterally. But there is 545 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: very little room for judges to really probe that process 546 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: unless they feel like, you know, something happened on their 547 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: watch on the docket that requires intervention. But just the 548 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: fact of a settlement to resolve civil litigation, no matter 549 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: how far along things are. It's this is certainly not 550 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: the first administration to reverse the position, the litigating position 551 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: of the US government. When administration's change presidents of every party, 552 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: that happens, you know, it's not as if there's some 553 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: indication that that's something nefarious or illegal or wrong has happened. 554 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: You know, I think it was just a development that 555 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, offered more evidence of sort of a broader 556 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: policy approach by the administration, which is, you know, are 557 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: there leavers of government that can be used to right 558 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: what the president sees as these major wrongs of his 559 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: sort of perceived political enemies. Whether we're talking about pardons, settlements, 560 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: declassifying information to make it public, Justice Department investigations, prosecutions, 561 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: there's sort of been this constant drumbeat of how does 562 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: the administration use the tools of government and in some cases, 563 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: taxpayer dollar to write what Trump sees as these wrongs. 564 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: This year, the Trump Justice Department reached a nearly five 565 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 2: million dollars settlement with the family of Ashley Babbitt, who 566 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: was shot during the January sixth riots at the Capitol. 567 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 2: Before Trump took office, Had the Biden administration been fighting 568 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 2: that lawsuit. 569 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: Yes, that's another one where under the previous administration, the 570 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: Justice Department had been seeking dismissal of I believe it 571 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: was some of the claims in that case. There was 572 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: a pending motion to dismiss and at a certain point 573 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: that position changed and the administration, once Trump took office, 574 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 1: entered into negotiations with the family and their attorneys to 575 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: reach a resolution. That process is not public information came 576 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: out about that only because there was sort of an 577 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: ancillary dispute related to lawyers who had been involved in 578 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: the case that landed on the docket ahead of that 579 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: settlement being announced, So there was sort of an early 580 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: preview of the fact that it was happening. That there's 581 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: no obligation by the government to share what it's talking 582 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: about why it's decided to enter into negotiations, and I 583 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: think it's also I should say the fact of settlement 584 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: talks is not a guarantee of a deal. You know, 585 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: there can be talks that don't yield an agreement in 586 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: the end. So we don't know how far along the 587 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: talks are with Flynn and Pasentino. We do know from 588 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: court filings that the government should put a hold on 589 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: whatever was happening. So there's been a delay up until 590 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: now from the past month. So there is just, you know, 591 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: a lot of secrecy built into this process by design. 592 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 2: There are claims with a political connection to Trump in 593 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: January sixth that the Justice Department is fighting that's right. 594 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been a fascinating dynamic to watch on 595 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: play because throughout the campaign President Trump really took up 596 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: the cause of January sixth defendants as his own and 597 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: express support for them, you know, endorsed the thinking on 598 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: the right that these prosecutions were unwarranted, overblown, and he would, 599 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, fload the idea of granting them clemency or pardons, commutations. 600 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: And there were high hopes from those who were involved 601 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: with these folks as their families, their attorneys, but also 602 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: activists in the conservative movement. And on day one, Trump 603 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: signed blanket clemency for those who had been convicted, charged 604 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: sentences commuted all but I think a handful of people 605 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: received clemency. But then there's been a bit of a 606 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: break and a lawyer for a number of these folks 607 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 1: named Mark McCloskey, he told us that they've been surprised 608 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: and frustrated that when they've gone and filed administrative claims 609 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: seeking damages for everything from you know, malicious prosecution, wrongful prosecution, 610 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: to the conditions of their prisonment for those who went 611 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: to jail, if that you know, FBI kicked down their 612 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: door in arresting them and broke in their house. You know, 613 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: there's a range of claims that you could make. He 614 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: says they've been rejected at least the first round or so, 615 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: and that they are preparing more and you know, encouraged 616 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: by some other actions by the administration to show support 617 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: for these folks. But there's been some consternation that it 618 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: hasn't been full throated. And of course we're going to 619 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 1: pay out money damages to the January sixth defendant. It 620 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: hasn't gone that far after the initial round of clemency, 621 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: and so there's maybe some uncertainty about whether this will 622 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: resolve in their favor. It's early to tell. I'm told 623 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: that hundreds more claims are getting ready to be filed soon. 624 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: But you know, that's been one area where the government 625 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: hasn't been sort of fully on their side. And there's 626 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: a lawsuit brought by some members of the Proud Boys 627 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: that the Justice Department is fighting under this administration. So 628 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: it hasn't been just a blanket. 629 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: Yes, once we find out more, it will be interesting 630 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: to see where they drew the line, if indeed they 631 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 2: do draw the line. Thanks Zoe. That's Bloomberg reporter Zoe Tilman. 632 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: Headlines are coming up right now, and that's it for 633 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can 634 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 2: always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. 635 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at 636 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,320 Speaker 2: www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast, Slash Law, and 637 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 2: remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight 638 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso and 639 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: you're listening to Bloomberg