WEBVTT - Here's Why Social Media Bans Are Driving Change 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:10.360 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I'm Stephen Carol and 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.000 this is Here's Why, where we take one news story 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:15.200 and explain it in just a few minutes with our 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:16.760 experts here at Bloomberg. 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.119 It's a landmark move that aims to keep those on 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:28.400 the sixteen off certain social media platforms. Children can no 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.560 longer have their own accounts, and fans violating the rule 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.720 phase fines of up to thirty three million dollars. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.160 They said it couldn't be done, but Australia is showing 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:39.479 just how we could. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.240 Do it, and I think we've reached a point where 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:43.479 the evidence is unambiguous. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.000 The addictive schooling is damaging. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:47.919 To their mental health. This platform is scino bot by, 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.960 you know, essentially hooking these users young, because the younger 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:52.760 that they get on these platforms, the more likely they 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.360 are to continue using them in the future. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.920 These laws are popular all around the world because parents 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.000 need help. They're tired of fighting with their kids about 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:00.960 cell phones and and social media. 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.880 It's a subject that unites parents and politicians the need 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.480 to protect young people from the harmful effects of social media. 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.119 Australia led the way last year when it banned under 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.759 sixteens from accessing social platforms. A host of European countries 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.520 are planning similar age restrictions. The European Union wants to 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:24.520 impose a phased and gradual access for young people based 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.200 on how old they are. Such measures aren't perfect, but 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.080 they are having an effect for both users and for 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:37.800 tech companies. Here's why social media bands are driving change. 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.840 Bloomberg opinion columnist Parmeolsen joins us Now for more. Parme 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.800 Australia was the first to impose a blanket ban. What 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.000 do we know about how effective it's been. 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:53.400 Well, it's still pretty early days. But from some of 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:58.440 the first studies that are looking at teenagers asking them 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.200 questions about their use of social media before the ban 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.680 and then after the band, there's one in particular by 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:10.200 the BMJ and it found actually not much difference. Most 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.919 teenagers under sixteens, because this is a band in Australia 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:17.399 that applies to children under the age of sixteen, are 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.680 still using those platforms, so there's not really a big 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.600 gap between kids who are unjust under sixteen or just 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.359 over sixteen. They're all still using it. And part of 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:33.560 the reason is relatively weak age checks, so you know, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.440 one of the most common ways that sites are now 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:42.160 verifying an age is simply through self declaration, and then 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.760 kids also just have to upload a selfie. So I 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.880 think what that has really shown is that legislating a 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:53.480 ban like this isn't going to make a big change 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.160 necessarily unless it's enforced properly. It's not the same as 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.800 enforcing it. So again, it's early days, so maybe that 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.080 will change, and I'm sure it will because there's a 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.040 lot more than just what's happening in Australia. There's a 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.720 real momentum growing globally with many different countries who also 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.560 want to enact similar bands. But to start with, for 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.280 Australia as the pioneer of this, it's taken a while 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.440 to really have an effect on teenagers. 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.480 I mean, let's talk a bit about this global drive. 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:27.080 Then why are so many other policymakers pushing ahead with 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.880 measures like this even if the evidence we have so 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.519 far isn't terribly strong about their effectiveness. 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.000 I think it's because this is what parents want and 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.320 it really shouldn't surprise and I think this is sort 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:41.640 of a long time coming. If we think back to 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:47.160 the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook. This was probably the 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:53.920 real turning point for the general public's perception of technology companies. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.600 And ever since then, as these companies have grown bigger 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.880 and the users on their platforms have gone into the 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.560 billions of people, and there's been more reporting in the 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:09.520 press and whistleblowers showing the harmful side effects of being 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:14.360 on social media, the toxic content, the going down rabbit holes, 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:19.480 the misinformation and conspiracy theories, and you know, teenage girls 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.479 who feel worse about themselves when they're on Instagram. That 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.960 was a very famous study that came out of Facebook's 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.800 own research, and we know about that because of the whistleblower, 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:33.320 Francis Hogan, who released a whole trove of documents. So 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.919 all this over the last you know, five to ten years, 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:41.600 has been slowly building this gradual kind of understanding that actually, 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:46.640 while these platforms are fun to use and they are 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.160 addictive and people you know, scratch this kind of mental 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.520 itch when they get to go on their Instagram or 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.240 Snap or whatever it is, there is this toxic side 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:02.200 effect and it's particularly worrying for young people. For kids, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:08.480 it can potentially exacerbate loneliness, bullying, deep fake nudes. All 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.560 these kinds of other potential second order effects are coming 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:17.080 out of the addictive qualities of these platforms that cause, 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.560 as far as we understand, so many teenagers to be 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:22.640 on them for so long. And so there's been a 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:26.240 real backlash not just from governments, but I think it 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:29.960 started sort of in the grassroots with parents Here in 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.159 the UK. About a year ago we had this campaign 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.520 among parents through WhatsApp, kind of spreading the word of 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:42.120 signing petitions and joining groups where parents were agreeing to 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.560 not give their kids smartphones and not let their kids 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.560 on social media when they go into secondary school. So 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.360 this has really been building for some time, and now 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.919 we're at a point where many countries in the European 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:58.800 Union are talking about also enacting bands. The United Kingdom 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.200 is also in acting bands. And while in the US 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:03.680 the federal government doesn't want to have anything to do 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.680 with this, they're actually kind of antagonistic against this. They 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:12.440 they've even stopped some safety officials from Europe getting visas 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.000 to go into the US and called on a couple 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.920 of them to testify and kind of see them as 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:22.240 this kind of censorship complex. Actually, quite a number of 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:27.039 US states are also looking into potential bands or potential 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.800 laws that can try and prevent young people from getting 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.840 addicted to social media early on or using social media platforms. 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.200 So how have the tech companies then responded to this 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.039 pressure from regulators, be it in the form of the 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.360 ban in the case of Australia and other countries, or 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:44.040 other methods. 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.960 Well, from what we can tell, there's been, as you 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:52.520 might predict, a kind of bare minimum compliance in terms 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:57.040 of actually, you know, stopping kids from using these platforms, 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.440 to the point now where five platforms are on formal 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:05.279 investigation by the Australian government over there properly complying with 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:10.400 the law, including Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and YouTube. And I 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:14.840 think it's you know again, this shouldn't surprise you. Young people 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:19.120 are perhaps the most important cohort of the users for 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.040 these companies. They are the most engaged and they represent 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.040 their future revenue base over the next few decades. So 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.080 it's very important to these companies that actually young people 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.720 do stay on their platforms and go to them almost 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.120 as a kind of natural thing to do. And what 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.120 I always find what kind of blows my mind is, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:43.800 you know, if you think about it, meta platforms the 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.480 owner of Facebook and Instagram, and Alphabet the owner of YouTube. 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:52.080 They're incredibly good at ad targeting and getting to know 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:56.200 their users on a very fine grained basis, the demographics 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.880 of their users, and so I think in a lot 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.120 of ways, and we don't have full clarity on this, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:05.000 but they can certainly get a close approximation of the 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.760 ages of their users just based on their behavior on 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.080 the site and what they're looking at. Now whether they 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.240 actually take that into account and do anything about that 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:19.080 is another matter. So you know, the technical ability to 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.680 stop under sixteens from coming on the platform is there, 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:24.480 but the incentive is not. 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.880 The social platforms say that they're investing in enforcement of 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.280 the Australian band, but Metas also talked about accurately determining 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:37.320 a user's age being a challenge for the whole industry. So, 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.920 besides the age related bands, what other methods are regulators 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.079 looking at to try to reduce the harm from social media. 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.640 Well, there's a really interesting bill that's being tabled this 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:52.199 year called the Digital Fairness Act by you Justice Minister 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:57.560 Michael McGrath, and it's aimed at creating a more level 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:02.800 and fair platforms for consumers generally trying to get rid 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.360 of the sort of the dark patterns that you might 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.800 have on websites that trick people into clicking something when 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.960 they don't really want to click something. And part of 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:17.120 that also addresses the addictive nature of many social media feeds. 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.599 So one of the features that this bill is targeting 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.360 is auto play. So when you go on YouTube, you're 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.280 watching a video and then just as you're getting to 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.160 the end, another video as already teed up and just 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:32.200 plays automatically. And that's one part of YouTube's kind of 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.439 secret sauce for keeping people on the platform for a 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:37.800 long time. The infinite scroll. You know, when you're scrolling 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:42.160 through Instagram or Facebook, it never ends. But what if 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.719 can you imagine you're scrolling and then you get a 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.640 little notification saying that's it, You're all caught up, there's 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.160 nothing left to scroll. And so what this bill is 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:55.560 pushing for is that tech companies turn off those features 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.960 by default. So if I want the infinite scroll, I 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.640 have to actually turn it, but by default it will 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:05.800 be off. If that bill doesn't get watered down, that 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.800 could be really interesting in terms of addressing some of 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:10.599 the very key issues that have been coming up in 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.960 the jury trials against social media companies that we saw 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.880 in the US today, exactly those addictive features and those 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.600 design patterns that are kind of fundamental to keeping people 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:24.040 on the sites and helping them make money. I think 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.880 the big question is whether that law does get watered 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.240 down before it's kind of formalized. There's been a huge 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:35.160 lobbying effort here in Europe towards MEPs and officials who 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:37.880 are working on and who are voting on that bill, 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.680 and the kind of the big argument from tech companies 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.040 is that if you pass a law like that, then 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.080 it's going to hurt innovation in Europe and it's going 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.679 to hold back Europe's prospects in terms of getting an 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.880 economic benefit from technology, which I think is complete hogwash 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:58.280 because the real reason that the European tech businesses here 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.720 don't do well is because they don't get enough funding. 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.960 It's I don't think regulation is really the issue, particularly 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.480 regulation that addresses the harmful side effects of the biggest 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.800 social media firms. Another way that bill could get watered 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:14.599 down is that it's only applied to children or to teenagers, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.760 So I mean that would take away the potential benefits 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.680 for adults who want to kind of avoid those side effects, 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.679 but that could just be another way to address that 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:26.520 issue for under sixteens. 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.559 Yeah, we're expecting that proposal from the European Commission later 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.280 this year's We'll be watching that with great interest at 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.600 PARMI thank you so much for joining us. Bloomberg Opinion 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.600 columnist parme Els in there, and you can read Parmy's 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.160 latest pieces by going to Bloomberg dot com forward slash Opinion. 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.200 For more explanations like this from our team of three 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.280 thousand journalists and analysts around the world, go to Bloomberg 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:51.760 dot com slash explainers. I'm Stephen Carroll. This is here's why. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.240 I'll be back next week with more. Thanks for listening.