1 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. I'm Stephen Carol and 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: this is Here's Why, where we take one news story 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: and explain it in just a few minutes with our 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: experts here at Bloomberg. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 2: It's a landmark move that aims to keep those on 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: the sixteen off certain social media platforms. Children can no 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: longer have their own accounts, and fans violating the rule 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: phase fines of up to thirty three million dollars. 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: They said it couldn't be done, but Australia is showing 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: just how we could. 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: Do it, and I think we've reached a point where 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 2: the evidence is unambiguous. 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: The addictive schooling is damaging. 14 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 3: To their mental health. This platform is scino bot by, 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 3: you know, essentially hooking these users young, because the younger 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 3: that they get on these platforms, the more likely they 17 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 3: are to continue using them in the future. 18 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: These laws are popular all around the world because parents 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: need help. They're tired of fighting with their kids about 20 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: cell phones and and social media. 21 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: It's a subject that unites parents and politicians the need 22 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: to protect young people from the harmful effects of social media. 23 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: Australia led the way last year when it banned under 24 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: sixteens from accessing social platforms. A host of European countries 25 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: are planning similar age restrictions. The European Union wants to 26 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: impose a phased and gradual access for young people based 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: on how old they are. Such measures aren't perfect, but 28 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: they are having an effect for both users and for 29 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: tech companies. Here's why social media bands are driving change. 30 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg opinion columnist Parmeolsen joins us Now for more. Parme 31 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: Australia was the first to impose a blanket ban. What 32 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: do we know about how effective it's been. 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: Well, it's still pretty early days. But from some of 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: the first studies that are looking at teenagers asking them 35 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: questions about their use of social media before the ban 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: and then after the band, there's one in particular by 37 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 3: the BMJ and it found actually not much difference. Most 38 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 3: teenagers under sixteens, because this is a band in Australia 39 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 3: that applies to children under the age of sixteen, are 40 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 3: still using those platforms, so there's not really a big 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: gap between kids who are unjust under sixteen or just 42 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 3: over sixteen. They're all still using it. And part of 43 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: the reason is relatively weak age checks, so you know, 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 3: one of the most common ways that sites are now 45 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: verifying an age is simply through self declaration, and then 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: kids also just have to upload a selfie. So I 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: think what that has really shown is that legislating a 48 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 3: ban like this isn't going to make a big change 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: necessarily unless it's enforced properly. It's not the same as 50 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 3: enforcing it. So again, it's early days, so maybe that 51 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 3: will change, and I'm sure it will because there's a 52 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 3: lot more than just what's happening in Australia. There's a 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: real momentum growing globally with many different countries who also 54 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: want to enact similar bands. But to start with, for 55 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 3: Australia as the pioneer of this, it's taken a while 56 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: to really have an effect on teenagers. 57 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean, let's talk a bit about this global drive. 58 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: Then why are so many other policymakers pushing ahead with 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: measures like this even if the evidence we have so 60 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: far isn't terribly strong about their effectiveness. 61 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: I think it's because this is what parents want and 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: it really shouldn't surprise and I think this is sort 63 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: of a long time coming. If we think back to 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 3: the Cambridge Analytica scandal with Facebook. This was probably the 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 3: real turning point for the general public's perception of technology companies. 66 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: And ever since then, as these companies have grown bigger 67 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: and the users on their platforms have gone into the 68 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 3: billions of people, and there's been more reporting in the 69 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 3: press and whistleblowers showing the harmful side effects of being 70 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: on social media, the toxic content, the going down rabbit holes, 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 3: the misinformation and conspiracy theories, and you know, teenage girls 72 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 3: who feel worse about themselves when they're on Instagram. That 73 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: was a very famous study that came out of Facebook's 74 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 3: own research, and we know about that because of the whistleblower, 75 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: Francis Hogan, who released a whole trove of documents. So 76 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 3: all this over the last you know, five to ten years, 77 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 3: has been slowly building this gradual kind of understanding that actually, 78 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: while these platforms are fun to use and they are 79 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 3: addictive and people you know, scratch this kind of mental 80 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: itch when they get to go on their Instagram or 81 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 3: Snap or whatever it is, there is this toxic side 82 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 3: effect and it's particularly worrying for young people. For kids, 83 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 3: it can potentially exacerbate loneliness, bullying, deep fake nudes. All 84 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 3: these kinds of other potential second order effects are coming 85 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: out of the addictive qualities of these platforms that cause, 86 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: as far as we understand, so many teenagers to be 87 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 3: on them for so long. And so there's been a 88 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 3: real backlash not just from governments, but I think it 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 3: started sort of in the grassroots with parents Here in 90 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 3: the UK. About a year ago we had this campaign 91 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: among parents through WhatsApp, kind of spreading the word of 92 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 3: signing petitions and joining groups where parents were agreeing to 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: not give their kids smartphones and not let their kids 94 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 3: on social media when they go into secondary school. So 95 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 3: this has really been building for some time, and now 96 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 3: we're at a point where many countries in the European 97 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: Union are talking about also enacting bands. The United Kingdom 98 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: is also in acting bands. And while in the US 99 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 3: the federal government doesn't want to have anything to do 100 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: with this, they're actually kind of antagonistic against this. They 101 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: they've even stopped some safety officials from Europe getting visas 102 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: to go into the US and called on a couple 103 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 3: of them to testify and kind of see them as 104 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: this kind of censorship complex. Actually, quite a number of 105 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 3: US states are also looking into potential bands or potential 106 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: laws that can try and prevent young people from getting 107 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 3: addicted to social media early on or using social media platforms. 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: So how have the tech companies then responded to this 109 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: pressure from regulators, be it in the form of the 110 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: ban in the case of Australia and other countries, or 111 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: other methods. 112 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 3: Well, from what we can tell, there's been, as you 113 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 3: might predict, a kind of bare minimum compliance in terms 114 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 3: of actually, you know, stopping kids from using these platforms, 115 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 3: to the point now where five platforms are on formal 116 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 3: investigation by the Australian government over there properly complying with 117 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: the law, including Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and YouTube. And I 118 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: think it's you know again, this shouldn't surprise you. Young people 119 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 3: are perhaps the most important cohort of the users for 120 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: these companies. They are the most engaged and they represent 121 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 3: their future revenue base over the next few decades. So 122 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: it's very important to these companies that actually young people 123 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 3: do stay on their platforms and go to them almost 124 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: as a kind of natural thing to do. And what 125 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: I always find what kind of blows my mind is, 126 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: you know, if you think about it, meta platforms the 127 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: owner of Facebook and Instagram, and Alphabet the owner of YouTube. 128 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: They're incredibly good at ad targeting and getting to know 129 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 3: their users on a very fine grained basis, the demographics 130 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: of their users, and so I think in a lot 131 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: of ways, and we don't have full clarity on this, 132 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: but they can certainly get a close approximation of the 133 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: ages of their users just based on their behavior on 134 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: the site and what they're looking at. Now whether they 135 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 3: actually take that into account and do anything about that 136 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: is another matter. So you know, the technical ability to 137 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 3: stop under sixteens from coming on the platform is there, 138 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: but the incentive is not. 139 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: The social platforms say that they're investing in enforcement of 140 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: the Australian band, but Metas also talked about accurately determining 141 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: a user's age being a challenge for the whole industry. So, 142 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: besides the age related bands, what other methods are regulators 143 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: looking at to try to reduce the harm from social media. 144 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 3: Well, there's a really interesting bill that's being tabled this 145 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 3: year called the Digital Fairness Act by you Justice Minister 146 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: Michael McGrath, and it's aimed at creating a more level 147 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 3: and fair platforms for consumers generally trying to get rid 148 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 3: of the sort of the dark patterns that you might 149 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: have on websites that trick people into clicking something when 150 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 3: they don't really want to click something. And part of 151 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: that also addresses the addictive nature of many social media feeds. 152 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,599 Speaker 3: So one of the features that this bill is targeting 153 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 3: is auto play. So when you go on YouTube, you're 154 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: watching a video and then just as you're getting to 155 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: the end, another video as already teed up and just 156 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: plays automatically. And that's one part of YouTube's kind of 157 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 3: secret sauce for keeping people on the platform for a 158 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: long time. The infinite scroll. You know, when you're scrolling 159 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: through Instagram or Facebook, it never ends. But what if 160 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 3: can you imagine you're scrolling and then you get a 161 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 3: little notification saying that's it, You're all caught up, there's 162 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: nothing left to scroll. And so what this bill is 163 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: pushing for is that tech companies turn off those features 164 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 3: by default. So if I want the infinite scroll, I 165 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: have to actually turn it, but by default it will 166 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 3: be off. If that bill doesn't get watered down, that 167 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: could be really interesting in terms of addressing some of 168 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:10,599 Speaker 3: the very key issues that have been coming up in 169 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 3: the jury trials against social media companies that we saw 170 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: in the US today, exactly those addictive features and those 171 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: design patterns that are kind of fundamental to keeping people 172 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: on the sites and helping them make money. I think 173 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: the big question is whether that law does get watered 174 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: down before it's kind of formalized. There's been a huge 175 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: lobbying effort here in Europe towards MEPs and officials who 176 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: are working on and who are voting on that bill, 177 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: and the kind of the big argument from tech companies 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: is that if you pass a law like that, then 179 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 3: it's going to hurt innovation in Europe and it's going 180 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 3: to hold back Europe's prospects in terms of getting an 181 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 3: economic benefit from technology, which I think is complete hogwash 182 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: because the real reason that the European tech businesses here 183 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: don't do well is because they don't get enough funding. 184 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 3: It's I don't think regulation is really the issue, particularly 185 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: regulation that addresses the harmful side effects of the biggest 186 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: social media firms. Another way that bill could get watered 187 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,599 Speaker 3: down is that it's only applied to children or to teenagers, 188 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 3: So I mean that would take away the potential benefits 189 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 3: for adults who want to kind of avoid those side effects, 190 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 3: but that could just be another way to address that 191 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 3: issue for under sixteens. 192 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're expecting that proposal from the European Commission later 193 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: this year's We'll be watching that with great interest at 194 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: PARMI thank you so much for joining us. Bloomberg Opinion 195 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: columnist parme Els in there, and you can read Parmy's 196 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: latest pieces by going to Bloomberg dot com forward slash Opinion. 197 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: For more explanations like this from our team of three 198 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: thousand journalists and analysts around the world, go to Bloomberg 199 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: dot com slash explainers. I'm Stephen Carroll. This is here's why. 200 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with more. Thanks for listening.