WEBVTT - The Girlfriends S1/E9: A Sisterhood

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<v Speaker 1>Novel.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey listener, here we are at our final episode. If

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<v Speaker 2>you're concerned that you will miss our music, don't worry.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to let you know that we've released a

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<v Speaker 2>Girlfriend's soundtrack, composed by Luisa Gristin and featuring members of

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<v Speaker 2>Deep Throat Choir. You can listen now on Spotify and

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<v Speaker 2>other streaming services. You can also purchase the album by

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<v Speaker 2>going to bandcamp dot com and searching for the Girlfriend's

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<v Speaker 2>Podcast Soundtrack. All proceeds go to our charity partners at

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<v Speaker 2>No More. Now for the trigger warning. In this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>we talk about domestic violence, violence against women, and femicide,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll warn you the ending has had our production

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<v Speaker 2>team in tears, so listen in public at your own risk.

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<v Speaker 2>But within all that, there's also stories of hope and

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<v Speaker 2>recovery and a haven for those suffering. And you guessed it,

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<v Speaker 2>Old Pottymouth is here swearing again. Throughout this series. I

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<v Speaker 2>told you one story, the story of.

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<v Speaker 3>Bob and Gail.

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<v Speaker 2>But the sad fact is Gail's case is one of many.

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<v Speaker 2>According to the UN, in twenty twenty one, on average,

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<v Speaker 2>more than five women and girls were killed every hour

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<v Speaker 2>by their husband, partner, or relative. Now, perhaps murder feels

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<v Speaker 2>a little unrelatable to you. But before Bob was a murderer,

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<v Speaker 2>he was an abusive and controlling partner. And those stats

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<v Speaker 2>are even more frightening. The UN estimates that across our lifetimes,

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<v Speaker 2>one in three women are subjected to physical or sexual violence.

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<v Speaker 2>This number hasn't really changed at all in the last decade.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's take this podcast as an example. Over one third

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<v Speaker 2>of the women we interviewed for this story have alleged

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<v Speaker 2>that they've been impacted by gendered violence or emotional abuse.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's not including the abuse inflicted by Bob.

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<v Speaker 4>My first husband. He was emotionally abused, not physically, but emotionally,

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<v Speaker 4>and I wish I had been stronger.

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<v Speaker 5>You think if you do the right thing, it won't

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<v Speaker 5>happen again, because you can't believe somebody who loves you

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<v Speaker 5>is really going to hurt you. And I said to

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<v Speaker 5>my father, you know you're an abuser, and he said,

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<v Speaker 5>what are you talking about. I never left a mark

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<v Speaker 5>on her, And I was like, wait, are you kidding me?

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<v Speaker 3>Is this really happening?

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<v Speaker 5>Because that's like a classic abuser.

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<v Speaker 6>Line was spent over the railing on the side of

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<v Speaker 6>a boat in the ocean, nothing around us, and I'm

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<v Speaker 6>telling you, if I would have fallen in, it would

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<v Speaker 6>have been curtains.

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<v Speaker 2>It's heartbreaking to me to hear all these incredible women

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<v Speaker 2>describing the hurt they have suffered. At times, it feels

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<v Speaker 2>like there's nothing we can do about it. Even Elaine,

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<v Speaker 2>Gail's sister, battled with that feeling.

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<v Speaker 7>There's nothing that I could ever do to change the

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<v Speaker 7>fact that Robert Baron barn killed my sister in July

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<v Speaker 7>of nineteen eighty five. The question has always been simply,

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<v Speaker 7>what am I going to do with that?

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<v Speaker 2>So Elaine pivoted from her original passion of poverty and

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<v Speaker 2>labor law to family law. That means every day she

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<v Speaker 2>helps vulnerable women and children escape bad marriages.

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<v Speaker 7>I do everything in my power control and protect the

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<v Speaker 7>lives and the wellbeing of my clients with a motivation

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<v Speaker 7>that far exceeds what a professional motivation should be.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen ninety six, Elaine started working as a consultant

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<v Speaker 2>for the Pace Women's Justice Center in White Plains, Westchester County.

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<v Speaker 2>The center offers free legal aid, advice and services to

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<v Speaker 2>vulnerable women who want to escape their abusive relationship relationships,

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<v Speaker 2>Like Gail and Bob's. But Elaine never told her friends

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<v Speaker 2>at the center about her sister because I.

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<v Speaker 7>Was in the closet. They didn't know until it was

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<v Speaker 7>on ten ten Wins, you know, BOBBYR and bamandited. I'm

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<v Speaker 7>driving home from the indictment and I'm realizing I'd better

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<v Speaker 7>call all these people who think they're my best friends

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<v Speaker 7>because they're finding out on the news that I had

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<v Speaker 7>a sister and she was murdered by her husband.

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<v Speaker 2>When Elaine told her friends at the Women's Justice Center

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<v Speaker 2>about Gail, they decide I did to name their building

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<v Speaker 2>Gail's House in her honor. At the naming ceremony, Elaine

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<v Speaker 2>decorated the tables with Gail's pottery and poems.

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<v Speaker 1>Friends and family came. Even people who.

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<v Speaker 2>Worked on her case were there.

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<v Speaker 7>I'll never forget the naming. We were in a public

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<v Speaker 7>room called the tutor room at the law school, and

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<v Speaker 7>as we were almost leaving, a tall, beautiful woman ran

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<v Speaker 7>in and I happened to be close to the door,

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<v Speaker 7>and she said to me, where's Lane Gats And I said,

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<v Speaker 7>I'm a Lane Cats And she said, you changed my life.

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<v Speaker 7>She said, Gail's story gave me the courage to leave

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<v Speaker 7>an abusive husband. I'm an immigrant and he was threatening

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<v Speaker 7>me that I would be deported and I would never

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<v Speaker 7>see my children again. And you were telling story. Gave

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<v Speaker 7>me the courage to leave that relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is why we tell these stories. I wish

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<v Speaker 2>I could say that now, after all these years, Elaine

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<v Speaker 2>and everyone else impacted by this case could rest and

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<v Speaker 2>simply focus on helping others in Gail's honor. But now

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<v Speaker 2>we've got a new fight on our hands keeping Bob

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<v Speaker 2>behind bars.

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<v Speaker 7>I had twenty years of solid peace and it was heavenly.

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<v Speaker 7>I never thought about Bob for twenty years, and then

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<v Speaker 7>the paroles process started. I will do anything to him

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<v Speaker 7>in he is a danger to everybody.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Carol Fisher and from the teens at Novel and iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>You're listening to The girlfriends Our final episode, episode nine.

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<v Speaker 3>We are a Sisterhood.

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<v Speaker 2>After Bob was charged with Gail's murder in two thousand,

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<v Speaker 2>he was incarcerated at Otisville Correctional Facility in Orange County.

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<v Speaker 2>Over the course of Bob's twenty years sentence, he's under

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<v Speaker 2>taken anger management courses, helped other prisoners with their studies,

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<v Speaker 2>and spoken with the prison rabbi. As far as we know,

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<v Speaker 2>he's only had one altercation in prison, which was right

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<v Speaker 2>at the start, where he was beaten up by a

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<v Speaker 2>prisoner who wanted to steal his wedding ring. In those

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<v Speaker 2>twenty years, you'd hope Bob would have had time to think.

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps he would have reached out to Gail's family, but

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't. Instead, he continued to insist he was innocent.

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<v Speaker 2>He appealed his case, He refused to be interviewed or

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<v Speaker 2>to testify at his trial. His silence has been deafening.

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<v Speaker 2>Then on December thirtieth, twenty twenty, Bob came up for

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<v Speaker 2>parole and for the first time he spoke and Mindy

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<v Speaker 2>and I we have the transcripts.

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<v Speaker 5>All right, so Carol, who are you going to be?

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm the commissioner.

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<v Speaker 5>Great, I get to be Bob.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh huh, yeah, you get to Bob. Okay you ready,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm ready, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me what happened on July seventh, nineteen eighty five.

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<v Speaker 2>What happened that led to her death?

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<v Speaker 3>Sir?

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<v Speaker 5>What happened was during that weekend. We spent the whole

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<v Speaker 5>weekend together and we had a pleasant weekend. At the time,

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<v Speaker 5>I was working about one hundred hours a week, and

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<v Speaker 5>at my secondary job, I was working about another twenty

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<v Speaker 5>hours a week. On that morning, we had planned on

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<v Speaker 5>going to a birthday party for my nephew. My wife

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<v Speaker 5>told me she did not want to go to the party,

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<v Speaker 5>and we had an argument about it. It was initially

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<v Speaker 5>a verbal argument. We were arguing with each other and

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<v Speaker 5>things escalated. I wanted her to stop yelling at me,

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<v Speaker 5>and I attacked her.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you attack her, sir, I strangled her. After

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<v Speaker 2>you strangled her, what happened, sir?

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<v Speaker 5>After that, I was frightened about what happened and concerned

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<v Speaker 5>about what had happened. So I left the apartment and

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<v Speaker 5>I went for a walk to think about what I

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<v Speaker 5>should do about it. I was cowardly about it, and

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<v Speaker 5>I did the wrong thing. I was scared about what happened.

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<v Speaker 5>I went out and made arrangements to rent an aircraft.

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<v Speaker 5>I went back to the apartment and brought her out

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<v Speaker 5>to the airport and put her in the airplane.

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<v Speaker 2>How did you manage to carry the body out of

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<v Speaker 2>the apartment.

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<v Speaker 7>I put her in a duffel bag.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you just remember her body?

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<v Speaker 8>Sir?

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<v Speaker 5>No?

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<v Speaker 2>I did not, So why didn't you just call the police?

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<v Speaker 5>Because I was frightened, scared and a coward.

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<v Speaker 2>So you rented a plane and you took her to

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<v Speaker 2>the airport and you put her on the plane. Is

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<v Speaker 2>that correct?

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<v Speaker 7>Yes, that's correct.

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<v Speaker 1>And then what I went.

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<v Speaker 5>Flying, I opened the door and then took her body

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<v Speaker 5>out of the airplane over the ocean.

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<v Speaker 2>And her body was never recovered.

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<v Speaker 7>Is that correct? Yes, that's correct.

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<v Speaker 1>You fucking believe this.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, for me, it's like watching the Twin Towers fall.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, it's just eerie. And because it's him, I

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<v Speaker 5>don't really even know if it's true.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, his language in there just sounds so scripted.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I was a coward. I can't imagine him saying that.

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<v Speaker 4>No.

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<v Speaker 2>But I also want to tell you this, what really

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<v Speaker 2>got me the most out of this was that, in

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<v Speaker 2>my mind, mindy, I always thought it was just a

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<v Speaker 2>tragic accident. The story that I've told myself for years

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<v Speaker 2>is that he got into an argument with her, things

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<v Speaker 2>escalated and he pushed her like this was purposeful, Like

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<v Speaker 2>he fucking strangled her.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, it is sickening. It is sickening to me. But

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<v Speaker 5>to then go and take a walk and think about

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<v Speaker 5>how to proceed and rent an airplane. That to me

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<v Speaker 5>is the most sickening thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And then he went back to his normal life the

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<v Speaker 2>next day. He just goes back as if everything and.

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<v Speaker 7>He went to the party.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey he went to the damn party.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he didn't report her missing right away. I mean, what,

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 9>And I am horrified, beyond like horrified. I dated him

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<v Speaker 9>for six months, I slept in the same bed. I

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<v Speaker 9>allowed him to take my daughter on a ski trip

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<v Speaker 9>with just her.

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<v Speaker 2>I am I just couldn't wait to talk to you

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<v Speaker 2>about this. I am just so disappointed in myself, and

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<v Speaker 2>I am so fucking angry at him. He's a sick

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<v Speaker 2>fuck and he deserves to rot in jail for the

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<v Speaker 2>rest of his freaking life.

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<v Speaker 5>Absolutely, and he should never be allowed out. No, he

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<v Speaker 5>is a danger to others. I mean, I don't think

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<v Speaker 5>this shows any remorse.

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<v Speaker 3>None.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, there's no remorse here.

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<v Speaker 1>None, no remorse.

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<v Speaker 2>I was scared I did the wrong thing, No shit, asshole.

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<v Speaker 1>He's just a sick fuck.

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<v Speaker 2>Bob was not granted parole after his confession in twenty twenty,

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<v Speaker 2>so he appealed it, had another hearing and lost again,

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<v Speaker 2>but that doesn't mean he won't be successful.

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<v Speaker 3>In the future.

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<v Speaker 2>And that terrifies me. But if it scares me, I

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<v Speaker 2>can't imagine how Elaine must feel.

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<v Speaker 5>You know what I would like to do at some

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<v Speaker 5>point when this is all aired and done.

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<v Speaker 1>What's that I would like.

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<v Speaker 7>To meet her sister.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, me too.

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<v Speaker 7>It would give me a little closure.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it would make me feel complete, and I'm wondering

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<v Speaker 2>if it would be healing for her too.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break, Mindy and I we meet Elaine for

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<v Speaker 2>the first time.

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<v Speaker 7>Elaine, Hello, Hi, nice to meet you. Carol and Mindy,

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<v Speaker 7>Nice to meet you.

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<v Speaker 5>Elaine.

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<v Speaker 2>Very nice to meet you. I'm a little nervous. I

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<v Speaker 2>have to tell you, what are you nervous about? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean we're meeting for the first time, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>hosting this podcast. So that's been a real honor during

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<v Speaker 2>that to get to know Gail, and I've gotten to

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<v Speaker 2>know you rather well even though we haven't met. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I just am in all of you. You're an amazing woman,

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<v Speaker 2>a real inspiration. I just want you to know that,

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<v Speaker 2>and from the bottom of my heart, I am just

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<v Speaker 2>so sorry for your loss.

0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.200
<v Speaker 7>Oh that's very sweet of you. I also feel anxiety.

0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.160
<v Speaker 7>I feel the anxiety of every time I do something

0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 7>like this, I have to center myself back in something

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:08.960
<v Speaker 7>that's incredibly traumatic.

0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we just Mindy and I just read the transcripts

0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:16.280
<v Speaker 2>from the prole hearing.

0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:16.960
<v Speaker 5>Mm hmm.

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:18.320
<v Speaker 1>We read them together.

0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.920
<v Speaker 2>I actually got them a couple of days ago from Anna,

0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and it was a very moving moment for me when

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.760
<v Speaker 2>I read that. Not that I didn't believe that he

0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:32.160
<v Speaker 2>murdered Gail, I didn't want to imagine it the way

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:32.960
<v Speaker 2>he did.

0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:43.920
<v Speaker 7>So obviously that he finally confessed was monumental, although I

0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 7>was really annoyed when I read the quote unquote confession.

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.800
<v Speaker 7>And I don't know if you remember where they read,

0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:52.840
<v Speaker 7>you know, this is what happened at the trial on

0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.960
<v Speaker 7>July seventh, nineteen eighty five. What happened and he started

0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.320
<v Speaker 7>to go into a story about how hard he works.

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:00.560
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, go on.

0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:06.720
<v Speaker 7>I found it very unsatisfying because I wanted what I

0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:10.720
<v Speaker 7>would call a full throated confession. And when I read that,

0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:13.600
<v Speaker 7>it's like the commissioners say, and did you do this?

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:19.240
<v Speaker 7>And he's saying yes, And we've never gotten what I

0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.440
<v Speaker 7>would call details. And I remember during the trial when

0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:27.199
<v Speaker 7>we never thought we would win, saying to Dan and Steve,

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.840
<v Speaker 7>I'll agree to manslaughter. I'll agree to, you know, a

0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.679
<v Speaker 7>really reduced sentence. I want to know, and as far

0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:36.560
<v Speaker 7>as I'm concerned, I still don't know.

0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:41.520
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, you're in such a liminal space and have been

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 5>in one for such a long time. My heart goes

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:45.840
<v Speaker 5>out to you.

0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:46.760
<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.520
<v Speaker 7>I mean I used to say, I want to know

0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.040
<v Speaker 7>it was she in pain. You know, she had spoken

0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 7>to someone before she died, and the woman said she

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 7>sounded weird. And I've always wanted to hear that he

0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.480
<v Speaker 7>drugged her, she didn't know what was happening, whereas that

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.399
<v Speaker 7>he'd have to admit premeditation. But I really do believe

0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:07.680
<v Speaker 7>there was premeditation. I believe it's a bunch of bullshit

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.240
<v Speaker 7>that they had a fight. As a matter of fact,

0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 7>there's a neighbor who says they fought every Sunday. This

0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.520
<v Speaker 7>one was quiet. I thought they were away for the weekend.

0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.879
<v Speaker 7>I think it's absolute bullshit. Yeah, I've always believed that

0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.879
<v Speaker 7>this was completely premeditated, and therefore I'd like to believe

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:24.920
<v Speaker 7>that he drugged her and that she had no idea

0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:26.640
<v Speaker 7>what was happening To her, right.

0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:28.399
<v Speaker 10>Right?

0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:31.879
<v Speaker 7>How long did you date him for?

0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.399
<v Speaker 2>Only for six months? Thank god? But may I just

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.959
<v Speaker 2>say I had a lot in common with your sister

0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.400
<v Speaker 2>in what way? Well, her love to have fun, her

0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.640
<v Speaker 2>love for people. You described her as being in love

0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.680
<v Speaker 2>with love. That's my whole mantra. I've been married three

0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.280
<v Speaker 2>freaking times, so it could have.

0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:52.919
<v Speaker 8>Been me and I.

0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:58.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, those six months, I denied my reality and

0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.160
<v Speaker 2>by the way, he broke up with me and I

0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 2>was upset.

0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:04.600
<v Speaker 1>But it was a horrible six months.

0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:05.680
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't that much fun.

0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.600
<v Speaker 1>The flying in the plane was fun. But I was

0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 1>always justifying his behaviors.

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.679
<v Speaker 2>As any woman does who's with a domestic and the behaviors, Oh,

0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.440
<v Speaker 2>he had a temper, so he was showing.

0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.640
<v Speaker 7>His anger early on in the relationship.

0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but not to the degree that he did I

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:27.280
<v Speaker 2>think with Stephanie, or the degree certainly he did with Gail.

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:33.080
<v Speaker 1>But I knew he had a short fuse. Did you

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:34.840
<v Speaker 1>ever think he would get convicted?

0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:39.080
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to hear that part of your experience and thought.

0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.360
<v Speaker 7>I did not think that we would have a conviction.

0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.320
<v Speaker 7>You know, there's a village of women that convicted Bob.

0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:52.000
<v Speaker 7>Three of them are here. Yeah, And I remember feeling

0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.440
<v Speaker 7>that I've got West Coast sisters. I know you guys,

0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:57.600
<v Speaker 7>Vegas isn't quite the West Coast, but it's certainly not

0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.600
<v Speaker 7>the East coast. All of us, this village of sisters

0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:06.520
<v Speaker 7>of women were working together. I even remember talking to

0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.480
<v Speaker 7>Dan and Steve when I knew that many of you

0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 7>were flying into New York to testify. You know, what

0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:16.400
<v Speaker 7>can I do to make their lives easier? So I said,

0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.480
<v Speaker 7>how about childcare? Like they can come with their kids?

0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:23.440
<v Speaker 7>And I all arranged childcare for everybody. And I wasn't

0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.800
<v Speaker 7>allowed to meet you because there was the whole witness

0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.639
<v Speaker 7>tampering possible problem. But I want both of you to

0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:36.119
<v Speaker 7>know that I always felt a tremendous kinship, a tremendous appreciation.

0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.680
<v Speaker 7>I always knew that there were so many of us,

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 7>And in fact, when the jury reached their verdict, they

0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.880
<v Speaker 7>tell the alternate jurors to leave the jury box because

0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:51.680
<v Speaker 7>they're no longer needed. And I'll never forget this beautiful

0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:55.000
<v Speaker 7>woman of color who was an alternate jura, sitting down

0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:58.480
<v Speaker 7>next to me and holding my hand, and it was

0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:01.200
<v Speaker 7>like she was saying to me in the jury pool,

0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.240
<v Speaker 7>are are with you, So no, I know that was

0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.280
<v Speaker 7>a long answer to you. No, I did not think

0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:08.680
<v Speaker 7>we were going to get him.

0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:10.120
<v Speaker 1>And do you think he'll get out?

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.560
<v Speaker 7>Do I think he's going to get out? The parole

0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:18.320
<v Speaker 7>process only allows incarceration for up to twenty four months.

0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 7>Up to it is automatically every two years, and it

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.600
<v Speaker 7>can be less than every two years.

0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.920
<v Speaker 2>By this, Elaine means if a prisoner has served their sentence,

0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.320
<v Speaker 2>they are entitled to a parole hearing every two years,

0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.800
<v Speaker 2>but for a variety of reasons, it can happen sooner.

0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.280
<v Speaker 2>Bob was due to have his next parole hearing a

0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.200
<v Speaker 2>while ago, but for reasons unknown to us, he keeps

0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.200
<v Speaker 2>a journeying it. It really could happen any day now.

0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:49.280
<v Speaker 7>I know this is going to sound like cruel and

0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:54.639
<v Speaker 7>inhuman treatment, but for some reason they cannot contact me

0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:59.720
<v Speaker 7>and tell me that there's been a decision. So I

0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.600
<v Speaker 7>know every month when he's supposed to be there, and

0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.240
<v Speaker 7>I know two weeks later is when the decision can

0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 7>be and I start to call the Office of Victim

0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:15.960
<v Speaker 7>Services on that day every day until I get an answer.

0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:20.520
<v Speaker 7>I think that lucky for us. The transcripts of his

0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:31.760
<v Speaker 7>parole hearings are treasure troves. He's the same sociopathic, psychotic, lying, unremorseful,

0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:37.399
<v Speaker 7>and in the second hearing, the appeal hearing, one of

0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.639
<v Speaker 7>the commissioners of female went after him for the lying

0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.080
<v Speaker 7>shit he was. He kept saying, you know, I was angry,

0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.439
<v Speaker 7>and she said no, she defied you about smoking, she

0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.119
<v Speaker 7>defied you about going to a birthday party. It was

0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:56.720
<v Speaker 7>about bullying, violence and control. It wasn't about I'm immature

0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:00.680
<v Speaker 7>and I made a mistake. And I don't know if

0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.000
<v Speaker 7>he's ever getting out. I hope not, because unfortunately, people

0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.359
<v Speaker 7>like Andy Rosenswig, the chief investigator, has said to me,

0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:14.359
<v Speaker 7>you're in danger, really yeah, or he's going after my

0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:23.800
<v Speaker 7>kids to hurt me even more. And he's a tough guy.

0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:25.119
<v Speaker 7>I mean, I don't think he's saying this to me

0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:26.399
<v Speaker 7>because he wants to make me afraid.

0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:32.000
<v Speaker 1>So what can we do to help you keep him in?

0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:36.399
<v Speaker 7>You can send letters at every parole board hearing.

0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:37.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:40.000
<v Speaker 7>One of the things that he said at the first

0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:43.800
<v Speaker 7>parole board hearing that was very aggravating to me was

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:53.120
<v Speaker 7>Gail was an anomaly. So if you experienced or anyone

0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:57.919
<v Speaker 7>you know experienced a violent episode with him. The more

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.240
<v Speaker 7>of those stories that are given to the parole Board,

0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:06.240
<v Speaker 7>the more the parole Board says Gail was not the anomaly.

0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:13.560
<v Speaker 7>It's not a one time thing.

0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:23.080
<v Speaker 5>In twenty twenty, I stopped practicing critical care medicine and

0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:26.679
<v Speaker 5>went back to school to become a hospice and palliative

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:27.920
<v Speaker 5>care physician.

0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:30.280
<v Speaker 1>But what I've.

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:35.680
<v Speaker 5>Learned in the past years and have thought a lot about.

0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 7>Is.

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:40.440
<v Speaker 5>When you speak to someone who's dying, you ask them

0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 5>how their body is, and then you ask them how

0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:52.199
<v Speaker 5>they are. And we may never find Gail's body, but

0:24:53.480 --> 0:25:01.679
<v Speaker 5>what an incredible legacy she has been the impetus for.

0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:06.239
<v Speaker 5>And a legacy is how the people who love you

0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:10.920
<v Speaker 5>remember you, and you have created an incredible legacy for her.

0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:20.840
<v Speaker 7>Thank you, mindy Elaine.

0:25:21.160 --> 0:25:24.560
<v Speaker 2>You've kept her story alive and you've allowed her to

0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:28.240
<v Speaker 2>help countless numbers of women. And I get ceery as

0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:34.119
<v Speaker 2>I say that, thank you, and so to think about

0:25:34.200 --> 0:25:36.320
<v Speaker 2>the number of women that you've helped us far and

0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:37.320
<v Speaker 2>the number of women.

0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:38.680
<v Speaker 1>That will be helped in the future.

0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Understanding that domestic violence has absolutely no boundaries.

0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:52.000
<v Speaker 5>The power dynamic has to change. You know, rape is

0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:56.040
<v Speaker 5>not a sexual crime. It's a crime of power, which

0:25:56.080 --> 0:26:01.160
<v Speaker 5>is exactly the way I think about this horribly sad story,

0:26:01.240 --> 0:26:05.560
<v Speaker 5>because in our own heads, we've created lives and stories

0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:12.840
<v Speaker 5>around this incident, and it has had an enormous power

0:26:13.280 --> 0:26:16.720
<v Speaker 5>for all of us. But we have to be united

0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 5>in a common idea that the endpoint is this must stop,

0:26:25.400 --> 0:26:48.080
<v Speaker 5>This cannot continue.

0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:51.639
<v Speaker 2>You know, by hosting this podcast, I've really learned to

0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:56.119
<v Speaker 2>trust my inner voice, listen to my intuition. You know,

0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:59.679
<v Speaker 2>Gail knew that she was making a big mistake, but

0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 2>Gail never deserve to have a mistake that ended in death,

0:27:03.760 --> 0:27:06.560
<v Speaker 2>and that could have been me. I didn't listen to

0:27:06.600 --> 0:27:11.439
<v Speaker 2>my intuition. And you know, when Maya Angela says, you know,

0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and I love that quote, when people show you who

0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:17.560
<v Speaker 2>they are, believe them. And Bob showed me who he

0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:21.480
<v Speaker 2>was on the first date, and Bob showed Gail who

0:27:21.520 --> 0:27:26.879
<v Speaker 2>he was consistently throughout the relationship. Yet she had a

0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:29.719
<v Speaker 2>lot of reasons for not believing him, or for thinking

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:34.920
<v Speaker 2>that she could influence it with a better outcome, and

0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:38.399
<v Speaker 2>she paid the price for that with her life. And

0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:44.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm very very fortunate that I did not. I have

0:27:44.880 --> 0:27:47.000
<v Speaker 2>this mantra that I live by, and I think it's

0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:51.200
<v Speaker 2>applicable here. For me. I strive to always live my life,

0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:55.479
<v Speaker 2>perform my life better today than I performed yesterday, and

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.919
<v Speaker 2>hosting this podcast has allowed me the opportunity to.

0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:07.040
<v Speaker 11>I'm gonna cry, get to know Gail, get to know Elaine,

0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:15.719
<v Speaker 11>get to know the family and her friends, and I

0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:22.760
<v Speaker 11>have a much better understanding that violence against women is

0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:23.560
<v Speaker 11>an epidemic.

0:28:24.440 --> 0:28:31.320
<v Speaker 2>It's been a problem, and it continues to be a problem.

0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:45.680
<v Speaker 1>And that I just want to be part of that solution. Yeah, Elaine, Carol.

0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 2>The Torso, the torso that was found, do you have

0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:52.520
<v Speaker 2>some thoughts about her?

0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:58.959
<v Speaker 7>I remember sitting in the hallway at the courthouse after

0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:05.240
<v Speaker 7>the testified Bob's trial. Charlie Hersh and I were sitting

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:09.240
<v Speaker 7>on a bench and I turned to Charlie and I said,

0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:17.400
<v Speaker 7>are you absolutely sure that this isn't Gail? And he

0:29:17.520 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 7>said to me, very unfortunately, I am absolutely sure. And

0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:30.160
<v Speaker 7>I said to him, and what are you doing to

0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:37.320
<v Speaker 7>find out who she is so that another family gets

0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:42.480
<v Speaker 7>peace that I didn't get for so many years? And

0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:47.280
<v Speaker 7>he said, the best we can with the limited resources

0:29:47.320 --> 0:29:59.840
<v Speaker 7>and information that we have. She is someone who died

0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:07.320
<v Speaker 7>of violent death, and she was found in May of

0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:10.280
<v Speaker 7>nineteen eighty nine, by the way, like two days after

0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:17.200
<v Speaker 7>I got married. The anthropological studies determined that she was

0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:21.960
<v Speaker 7>probably murdered in early nineteen eighty nine, which was entirely

0:30:22.000 --> 0:30:24.760
<v Speaker 7>inconsistent with her being Gail. By the way, we all

0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:31.600
<v Speaker 7>knew that at the time, but she was seemingly Gail's age,

0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 7>and I feel terrible there's a family out there that

0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:37.640
<v Speaker 7>does not have closure.

0:30:41.480 --> 0:30:44.520
<v Speaker 12>After the break, we tell you everything we know about

0:30:44.520 --> 0:31:03.120
<v Speaker 12>the Torso.

0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:08.240
<v Speaker 2>For the best part of a year, my producer Anna

0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:11.120
<v Speaker 2>and her team have been trying to confirm the identity

0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:15.440
<v Speaker 2>of the torso that was misidentified as Gail. It never

0:31:15.480 --> 0:31:18.760
<v Speaker 2>felt right to reduce her existence to a cliffhanger and

0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:22.800
<v Speaker 2>just leave it at that. But even after hours and

0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:26.800
<v Speaker 2>hours of research and conversations with the Chief Medical Examiner's

0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:30.280
<v Speaker 2>office and local police forces, we have not been able

0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:36.160
<v Speaker 2>to confirm anything despite several very very promising leads. The

0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 2>sad fact is trying to identify her really made it

0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.960
<v Speaker 2>hit home how many other women's stories are out there

0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:47.680
<v Speaker 2>not being told. In their search, Anna and our researcher

0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:51.520
<v Speaker 2>Maddie have gone through hundreds if not thousands of women's

0:31:51.560 --> 0:31:55.320
<v Speaker 2>cases on the Missing Person's database, and that was just

0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:59.520
<v Speaker 2>in the state of New York. Sadly, I can't tell

0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:02.040
<v Speaker 2>you all of their stories, but I did want to

0:32:02.080 --> 0:32:05.320
<v Speaker 2>give them a place in this podcast because they're our

0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:06.320
<v Speaker 2>girlfriends too.

0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:10.239
<v Speaker 1>So if you all tell me when you're ready, all

0:32:10.320 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 1>to us up.

0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:14.600
<v Speaker 7>Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Okay.

0:32:15.920 --> 0:32:18.080
<v Speaker 2>These are some of the names of the missing and

0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:21.200
<v Speaker 2>murdered women from the state of New York, starting from

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:25.480
<v Speaker 2>July seventh, nineteen eighty five, read to you by myself,

0:32:25.920 --> 0:32:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Mindy and Elaine.

0:32:27.920 --> 0:32:40.800
<v Speaker 7>Helene Okay, Gail Kats, Rosa Westbrook, Aquila, Hadric Flossi Wilbur,

0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:52.040
<v Speaker 7>Olinthia Harper, Helene Rubstein, Tammy McCormick, Candida Hernandez, Rita Fioretti,

0:32:52.680 --> 0:33:03.240
<v Speaker 7>Cindy Rowl's, Colleen Brooks, Erica fran Olich, Sassin, Eileen Newberger,

0:33:03.960 --> 0:33:09.640
<v Speaker 7>Mary Monroe, Francis Peters, Sandra Runkle.

0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:19.280
<v Speaker 5>Sharon Pulaski, Gail Richards, Isabelle Rizzo, Francia Penna, Sonia, Archie

0:33:19.720 --> 0:33:29.440
<v Speaker 5>Ella Taylor, Elizabeth Mundelli, Shirley Klemngard, and Lubrono, Norma Parkinson,

0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:32.360
<v Speaker 5>Monique Santiago.

0:33:32.320 --> 0:33:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Marilyn Mara Wilson.

0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:43.880
<v Speaker 7>Marino, Barbara Lane, Jessica Soto, Harriet Hoyt, Nowhen Hagucci.

0:33:43.480 --> 0:33:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Brown, Marie Musselia.

0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:56.320
<v Speaker 7>Judith Geron, Ebony Trua, Denise Griffin, Elise Farmer, Leona Rodriguez,

0:33:57.200 --> 0:34:06.840
<v Speaker 7>Tanya Blerov, Charmine Smalls, Christa Nicol Belusko, Tiffany Dixon, Tonny

0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:14.399
<v Speaker 7>Morgan Show, Mara Rodriguez, Jong Pack, Lena han Enez, Silveria,

0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:22.000
<v Speaker 7>Deborah Overbach, Margaret Reilly, Teresa Schroeder.

0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Glenda Lee's Valentine.

0:34:24.480 --> 0:34:29.320
<v Speaker 5>Evelyn Henriquez, Christine Marky.

0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:38.680
<v Speaker 13>Suzanne Leol, Arlena Abbas, Elizabeth Bump, Judith Conrado, Stacy Pennant,

0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:47.280
<v Speaker 13>Sarah Wood, Tracy Collington, Erica Pavoca, Heidi Allen, Katherine Chiang,

0:34:48.000 --> 0:34:50.520
<v Speaker 13>Sandra Sali, Elizabeth.

0:34:50.000 --> 0:34:57.719
<v Speaker 7>Busmann, Laura Williams, Jane Kelsey, An, Jeannette Petrowski, Lucy Fuentez,

0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:07.400
<v Speaker 7>Charlotte Fuller, Robin Murphy, Joan Adler, Wen Wang, Katherine Minningham,

0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:15.280
<v Speaker 7>Sarah Hodgeney, Jennifer Boldock, Andrea Robinson, Sonya, Oliver Lori Bova,

0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:17.600
<v Speaker 7>Michelle Isan.

0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:20.360
<v Speaker 1>Jennifer Gordon, Richard.

0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:29.480
<v Speaker 7>Deine Middleton Camden, Sylvia, Judith Vallos, Cynthia Boehmer, Sylvia Cabden,

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:35.080
<v Speaker 7>leon Anna Savette, Belita Gambrell.

0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:37.760
<v Speaker 1>Kristen Kouka, Frances.

0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:45.320
<v Speaker 7>Clark, Irene Silverman, To, Jonna Lupak, Cynthia Quarrels, Patricia Kendary,

0:35:46.120 --> 0:35:53.719
<v Speaker 7>Quen Halsberg, Stiana Ignatovich, Debbie Ferris.

0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:57.960
<v Speaker 5>Denise Hired, Me, Samea, Helen Young.

0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:04.040
<v Speaker 7>Grace Gotamasso, Indira Monteiro, Francois.

0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Morsanria, Harriet Olson.

0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:14.719
<v Speaker 7>Lorraine Gruna, Jennifer cool Ashley, Carol, Patricia Bartza and Tiamanga Plassa.

0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Jack Dahlia Avria.

0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:24.560
<v Speaker 10>Jennifer match Ivy, Mentor, Irena, Trusha, Fritchen Walker, Marri Grlan,

0:36:25.360 --> 0:36:31.040
<v Speaker 10>Hailey Wristler, Heather Ballard, Kaylin Martinez.

0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:33.120
<v Speaker 1>Linda Mann, Montoya.

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Stevens, Faith Prescott, Alexandria Bolivoy, Thalia Dorses.

0:36:39.120 --> 0:36:40.759
<v Speaker 7>Christine Pilhuli.

0:36:41.120 --> 0:36:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Shannon Mary, Sunnia Sultana.

0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:49.680
<v Speaker 7>Marina, Patricia Banks, Casey, Peterson, Amanda Ki.

0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:55.520
<v Speaker 11>Sharon Ross, Kathleen Wayner, Me, Carmini, Amy Goldberg, Rose.

0:36:55.320 --> 0:37:03.280
<v Speaker 14>Marie, Gary Leone, Patricia Cagiso, Arna, Dominique, Patra Catria, Kinwanas,

0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:06.080
<v Speaker 14>Pamela ma Lane, April Parker.

0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:14.800
<v Speaker 5>Camou, qupt By, Valise Bonilla, Lauren Shay, Rosalina Lafontaines.

0:37:14.280 --> 0:37:25.640
<v Speaker 8>Patricia Cabrera, Kaya, Harris, Tunshia camp Fouris, Samuel Lewis, Sophia Lovaina, Kashi, Conda, Holou,

0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:30.840
<v Speaker 8>Marrying Kolani, Mogita Rivera, Jamai, Wesleyan.

0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:34.080
<v Speaker 5>Serrena, Angela Vershisa.

0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:37.600
<v Speaker 7>Mercedes Fashion, Vliah, Maria.

0:37:37.120 --> 0:38:39.800
<v Speaker 15>Brabazon, Heather Coburn, m Farine Bermudas, Heidi shinogs Ni Surrendook Torres.

0:38:39.440 --> 0:38:45.240
<v Speaker 2>Korea, Sonia Manic, Mariona Aakar, Narissa.

0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:49.640
<v Speaker 8>Comes, Veride, Bata, Shakia, Sound, Jamie and.

0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:53.359
<v Speaker 1>Jimenez, Debor Witkowski, Alba.

0:38:53.200 --> 0:39:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Logos, Cassandra Ramrez, fottom up To, Marenyevs, Rivera.

0:39:00.280 --> 0:39:10.960
<v Speaker 16>Skylar, Sithon, Jeannette, Charmela, Vimori Bizarro, Nanez, Prenicia Sarki, Zeta, Casanova, Tina,

0:39:11.120 --> 0:39:20.759
<v Speaker 16>John Pierre, Manashi, Babanga, Somarbai, Rita, Hollis, toting Lin, Karima, Melendres,

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:28.320
<v Speaker 16>Tunisia Write, Maya Krey, Fidelina Rablero, Gonzalez.

0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:36.600
<v Speaker 7>Louren Lcana, Jessica Lopez, Regina Williams, Sunhi Miller, Laishana Lapkowski,

0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:47.759
<v Speaker 7>Tatiana Mohammad, Kai Gorman, Cheyenne Lightfoot, Amaya Rashid, Diina Feinstein,

0:39:49.080 --> 0:39:54.160
<v Speaker 7>Nivia Smith, Diana Menjevar tersoas.

0:39:54.800 --> 0:40:04.759
<v Speaker 2>Brittany Dogado Dogado. If you all made it with us

0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:09.640
<v Speaker 2>as far thank you, truth is, we could.

0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:10.239
<v Speaker 1>Have kept going.

0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:27.520
<v Speaker 7>I'm emotionally drained and I'm in awe of you contextualizing

0:40:28.760 --> 0:40:32.520
<v Speaker 7>where my sister stands in the universe.

0:40:36.440 --> 0:40:36.759
<v Speaker 1>Thank You.

0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:13.239
<v Speaker 2>The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for Ourheart Radio. For

0:41:13.480 --> 0:41:18.320
<v Speaker 2>more from novel, visit novel Dot Audio. The series is

0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:22.680
<v Speaker 2>hosted by me Carol Fisher and produced by Anna Sinfield.

0:41:23.920 --> 0:41:28.279
<v Speaker 2>Our assistant producer is Julian Manu Gera Patten, and our

0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:34.080
<v Speaker 2>researcher is Madeline Parr. The editor is Veronica Simmons. Max

0:41:34.120 --> 0:41:39.400
<v Speaker 2>O'Brien is our executive producer. Our fact checker is Valeria Rocca.

0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Production management from Sharie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design,

0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:50.080
<v Speaker 2>mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen and Nicholas Alexander.

0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:53.320
<v Speaker 1>Music supervision by Anna Sinfield.

0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Original music composed by Luisa Gerstein. Story development by Isaac

0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Fisher Willard Foxton is Creative director of Development. Special thanks

0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:10.880
<v Speaker 2>to Shawn Glynn, David Waters, Might Hilly Rowl, Katrina Norvell,

0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:14.520
<v Speaker 2>David Wasserman and Beth Anne Mcaluso.

0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:24.920
<v Speaker 5>Bah Ah.

0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:29.800
<v Speaker 15>Yeah.

0:42:38.080 --> 0:42:40.399
<v Speaker 2>We did reach out to Bob and his legal team

0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to ask if he'd like to comment on the podcast,

0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:44.560
<v Speaker 2>but we never heard back.

0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Novel