WEBVTT - Great Courses: Merion 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.560 The East Course at Marion Golf Club is kind of 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:08.520 a contradiction. This Hugh Wilson William Flynn design is one 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.080 of the oldest great American golf courses, so it's not 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:16.400 surprising that by modern standards it's pretty small, yet it's 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.720 still capable of testing the best golfers in the world. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.480 And today we're going to find out why. I'm Garrett 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:34.600 Morrison and this is designing golf. All right, Before I 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.640 bring on my guest today, Wayne Morrison, let's do some Marion. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:41.360 One oh one. What are the big things that you 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:44.640 need to know about the East Course at Marion Golf Club. 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.599 First little bit of history. Marian started way back in 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.800 eighteen sixty five as predominantly a cricket club, but in 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.320 the eighteen nineties golf became suddenly popular in the US 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.240 and members at Marion started playing golf on a kind 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.960 of rudimentary course. These were the origins of Marion Golf Club, 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.959 but the cricket and golf clubs actually didn't officially separate 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.600 until the early nineteen forties. So the East Course at 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:19.200 Marion opened in nineteen twelve. It was in Ardmore, Pennsylvania, 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.960 basically a wealthy suburb of Philadelphia. The architect of record 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.800 was a member named Hugh Wilson, who was the head 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:31.880 of the club's green committee. Wilson also designed the West 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.319 Course at Marion, about a mile down the road, but 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.400 the East Course as it stands today is I think 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:44.080 best understood as a collaborative design effort. Hugh Wilson was 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.000 the driving force and the initial architect, but he had 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:52.360 critical assistance from the club's greenkeeper, William Flynn. Flynn's name 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.400 you might recognize. He went on to become one of 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:59.880 America's greatest golf architects, designing Shinnakawk Hills as well as 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.080 bunch of other excellent courses, but he got his start 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:07.400 at Marion, and I think he learned his craft under 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:12.560 the influence of Hugh Wilson and in the context of Marion. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.160 So between nineteen twelve and the nineteen thirties, William Flynn 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.520 and Hugh Wilson made a number of important updates to 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.680 the East Course, molding it into essentially the course that 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:29.320 we know today, which is one of our top championship venues. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.120 It's hosted five US opens and is on the schedule 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:37.120 for twenty thirty twenty forty and twenty fifty. It's also 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.720 hosted six US Amateurs, with the seventh coming up next week. 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.640 All right, that brings us to the East Course itself. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:51.280 Let's talk about land design and routing. The first thing 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.320 to know is that the property is very small. It's 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.400 only about one hundred and fifteen acres that's taken up 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.400 by the golf course. By comparison to Oakmont Country Club 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.320 is around two hundred acres. Pinehurst Number two in Shinnakawk 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:11.600 Hills around the same Marion is much smaller. But the 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.600 routing of the East Course is so good that you 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.880 really don't notice that the property is limited. For example, 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.160 if you look at holes two through nine, they all 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.800 sit in a valley that's about three hundred yards wide 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.000 and nine hundred and fifty yards long, so pretty narrow, 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.639 and there are eight holes packed into this one rectangle. 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.240 The danger here would be ending up with a bunch 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.240 of parallel holes kind of running up and down the valley. 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.760 That's when golfers would notice, you know this, this property 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.640 is pretty small. We're kind of hemmed in here going 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.520 back and forth. But the East Course avoids this in 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:58.040 a really clever way. Basically, holes two through nine form 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:03.800 two big overlap loops, so you're always changing direction and 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:08.720 swirling around the property instead of just bouncing back and forth. 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:14.800 Another brilliant aspect of Marian's routing is its pacing. Famously, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.040 the writer Jerry Tardy compared the East Course to a 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.640 three act play, quote the drama of the first six 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.640 demanding holes, the comedy of the next seven, and the 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.119 tragedy of the last five. That makes a lot of sense. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.479 With the exception of the first hole. That opening stretch 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.600 is pretty long and tough. Pulls two and four are 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.480 the only par fives on the course. That's your drama. 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.200 Then you get to the comedy of seven through thirteen, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.600 lots of short par fours along with the tiny par 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:53.279 three thirteenth. Then you arrive at the final act fourteen 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.800 through eighteen, just one tough, treacherous hole after another, with 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:03.600 the last three playing through Marion's iconic quarry. That's your tragedy. 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:08.440 So every round at the East Course has this structure. 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:13.080 There's a sense of rising and falling action across the 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.400 eighteen holes, and I think that's a big part of 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:22.800 what generates this feeling of grandeur insignificance at Marion, even 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:27.839 though again the property is pretty small. All right. The 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.960 last topic I want to cover in this Marion one 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.119 oh one rundown is why the East Course is still 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:37.880 a relevant championship venue. At the US Amitter next week, 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.040 the longest that the course is going to play will 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:46.360 be around six nine and thirty yards, not even seven thousand. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:50.640 So how does that even work for a modern championship 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.880 golf course. Well, for one, the East Course repeatedly takes 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.640 driver out of the hands of longer players. There are 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.320 only a few spots where you can go bombs way, 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:04.080 mostly in the first six holes. Otherwise it's a lot 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:08.039 of long irons and hybrids to certain landing zones. So 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:13.360 Marian definitely plays longer than the scorecard indicates, and it's 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:18.640 pretty hard to overwhelm. Two. The hazards are real hazards. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.920 The bunkers are shockingly deep and out of bounds, comes 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.080 into play on several holes. This is another factor that 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:33.039 prevents power hitters from just overwhelming the course with raw strength. Three, 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:39.200 the greens are tough targets. They're mostly pretty small, many 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.960 of them severely tilted, and the hardest pin positions are 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:48.360 very very difficult to access. For the fourth and final 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:52.760 reason why Marion still works as a championship course, we 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.800 have to talk about narrow fair ways and thick rough. 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:59.640 Even after Gil Hans's renovation works several years ago, the 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.720 ways at Marion East remained quite narrow, much narrower than 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:08.880 they were in Hugh Wilson and William Flynn's time, and 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:14.040 the rough is lush, overseeded and dense now. On the 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.360 one hand, I understand why the club does this. It 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.560 keeps scoring in check and it's a deterrent to just 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:25.760 hitting driver everywhere. On the other hand, it does reduce 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:29.880 the complexity of the golf course. It shuts down what 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.880 should be what used to be valid strategic angles, and 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.480 it forces play down the middle. Plus I think it 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.559 hurts the course esthetically. The moulling lines just don't really 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.680 match the landforms anymore. But you know, when the governing 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.920 bodies don't regulate equipment effectively, this is what you get. 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:54.080 It's sad but inevitable. All that said, the East Course 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.480 at Marion is a unique and brilliant golf course, a 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:01.960 precision golf course, a great test of playing ability, and 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.920 it offers a lot of lessons for anyone interested in 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.000 golf architecture. Okay, so those are the basics. Let's go 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:12.880 a little bit deeper. And for that there's really no 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:17.240 one else to bring on than Wayne Morrison. Wayne is 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:21.560 the author of the definitive William Flynn biography, The Nature Faker, 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:24.000 and he also happens to be a member of Marian 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.040 Golf Club, so his knowledge of the East Course is 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.920 really second to none. All right, let's bring him on. 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.439 All right, Wayne Morrison is here. Wayne, welcome to the podcast. 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:43.520 Thanks for coming on, Welcome back to the podcast. You're welcome. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:44.360 Good to be with you. 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.160 Indeed, welcome back to the podcast. Well, you have been 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.480 on the Friday Golf Podcast a couple of times, including 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.360 one time with me, and you've also been on various 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.880 videos of ours. So you've been very generous with your 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:58.840 time and your expertise. 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.920 I'll let people know right the bat that that you 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.520 are you know pretty much undoubtedly the world's leading William 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.360 Flynn expert. Your book, The Nature Faker is a great 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.360 resource for anybody looking into William Flynn designed courses and 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:17.840 courses that have elements of William Flynn design, which is 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.600 the category that the East Course at Marion Golf Club 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.520 falls into. So, Wayne, you're going to help me dig 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:27.280 a little deeper into the architecture and history of the 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.160 East Course. First, we'll talk about the elements of the 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:37.000 course itself, so land routing, hazards, grains, design philosophy, and 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:39.640 the you know, some of the renovations that have been 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:43.000 done in the past and recently. Then in the latter 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:45.400 part of our conversation, well, we'll dig a bit more 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.959 into the history, but I do want to start with 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:53.840 discussing the golf course from an architectural perspective, from a 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.520 design perspective, essentially as it stands today, starting with its 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:03.120 land with its So, Wayne, could you just describe in 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.120 a basic way the property that the East Course at 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.160 Marion currently occupies. Yeah, so the club itself sits on 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.640 about one hundred and twenty acres, but that includes the clubhouse, 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.199 the parking lot, and a driving range which we purchased 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.440 from the land we purchased from harf for College in 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.000 the sixties, So that's about fifteen or so acres. So 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.520 the whole thing being on one hundred and twenty five acres, 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.880 only about one hundred and one hundred and ten acres 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:35.120 or the golf course, which is very small footprint for 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.720 what's considered a championship golf course and remains a championship 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:44.920 golf course. It's L shaped, which is kind of it 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.000 sort of dictates, you know, what the routing can possibly be. 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.200 You can't have you can't have too many holes going 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:55.200 in the axis of the you know, the shorter lengths 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.400 of the L. So it just happens to fit. I mean, 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.679 it just happens to work, and a little bit lucky 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.839 in that regard, but there's nothing wrong with luck when 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:11.280 it comes to golf design. I'm sure there are other 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.959 examples where the boundaries of the site were fixed and 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:17.880 the golf just happened to fit very well in there. 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:23.720 So so that land is ideal for golf. There's about 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.320 one hundred and fifteen feet of elevation change overall from 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.760 the low point on the golf course is the eleventh green, 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.439 and not surprising that a lot of balls sort of, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.480 you know, throughout the golf course tend to have, you know, 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.040 a more of a direct you know, more of a break, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.840 and more of a speed as they go to the 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.360 eleventh green. And the high point is the fifteenth Green. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.200 So in between there there's some parallel holes, but you 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.000 don't get any sense of parallelism. There are other courses 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:57.800 that we're all familiar with where you definitely know there's 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.200 there're parallel holes and you're playing up in back and 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.360 it gets a little bit routine, but not at Marion 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:08.360 because they're on different elevations, go in different directions. And 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.560 one of the fascinating things, I mean, and superintendents have 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:14.800 confirmed this with me. For whatever reason, the wind is 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:19.240 always changing at Marion. You could plays, as you well know, 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.880 the only two par fives on the golf course, or 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.160 the second and the fourth holes, they go in opposite directions. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.480 But it's uncanny how you could have the same wind. 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:29.760 I don't I don't get it. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:35.160 It's just some some sort of uh, you know, nuance 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:41.600 and and kind of you know, unusual circumstance that the 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.079 wind shifts so much at Marion. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.480 It kind of seems like shirl, doesn't it, Like it's 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.520 a you know, yeah, the the biggest part of the property, 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:51.920 the part of the property that the front nine occupies, 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.040 is effectively a valley, right, and so you know, the 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.000 wind kind of gets down in there and it might 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:01.600 be bouncing off some things, and it's yeah, it really does. 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.320 I mean the creek along the left side of the 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.839 fifth holes where you know is the low point there, 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.400 that's the valley you're talking about. So what that valley 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:15.640 does is it creates some different levels and different you know, 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.680 so you don't get a scent, you don't get a 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:19.840 monotony or a sense of you know, I've played this 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.360 hole before. Things are very different there. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:28.480 The topography itself, you know, there are valleys, there is 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:32.040 a general slope right, the high point, as you mentioned, 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.320 is the fifteenth grain. The low point is the eleventh grain, 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.280 so that there is a general push towards certain parts 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.559 of the property. But it's not as though the course 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.160 sits on a hillside, right, It is rolling, which I 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.480 think is is really what suits it to a golf course, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:52.600 right that the that the topography isn't doing just one thing, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.760 It's doing a lot of different things over over the 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.320 course of of the of the site. 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.880 Yeah, and it's kind of interesting when you think about, 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.600 you know, Marian was in a lot of ways. The 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:09.079 the the influence on the Shinnacock Shinnecock relies on triangulation 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.600 of wind. Marian doesn't have to rely on that because, 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.120 as you said, the way the wind plays in that valley, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:19.280 you know, creates a lot of different kinds of influences 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:22.720 on on this, on the on the golfer and how 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.520 they play and how they play that it's and they're 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.120 not having you know, not having flags, having baskets. You 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.400 got to really be careful in how you assess what 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.480 the wind is, both the intensity and the and the direction. 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.880 Great. All right, So now that we have kind of 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.480 an idea of of the basic you know, terrain topography, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.800 let's talk about the routing. You mentioned already that there's 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.360 there's uh, you know, you don't feel as though you're 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.560 playing parallel holes, even though if you look at the 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.960 course from above there there clearly are parallel holes. How 0:14:56.000 --> 0:15:00.360 does the routing at the at the East course basically work. 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.600 What's kind of the tactic of the routing to get 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.920 the golfer through these different sections of the property. 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.040 That's a great question. And really that routing creates a 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.960 rhythm and flow to the golf course which I think 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:18.080 is unmatched in any other golf course. You've heard the 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.960 story about the three act play at Marion where The 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.240 first hole is sort of a well, it's a not 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.760 so gentle handshake because there's thirteen bunkers, right, But you know, 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.000 it's a short haul that requires a lot of precision. 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:34.760 The next five holes are long and challenging based on 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.160 length and also topographic changes. And obviously, I mean the 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.080 real challenge is at the greens. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:42.480 You know. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.600 That's why a golf course that's only sixty eight hundred 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:47.720 yards or I guess you can push it out to 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:49.880 sixty nine ninety six if you have one foot in 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.720 the rough on the back of every tee is still 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.720 a challenge to the best players in the world, and 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.760 yet still enjoyably difficult for you know, a range of golfers. 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:04.960 I wouldn't want to if I was a beginning golfer, 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.560 I'm not so sure i'd want to, you know, start 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.720 playing the East course. But we have the West Course, 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.840 which is nice in any case. So I was talking 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.720 about the rhythm and flow. It happens to work, but 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.160 it's it breaks a lot of principles. The only two 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.240 par fives are the second and fourth holes, and and 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.760 they're long and demanding par fives. But in some regard 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:33.200 that's one of you know, you think about Flynn and 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:37.400 hit the influences on Flynn's design practices. A lot of 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.880 the best courses are only two par fives par seventies. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.640 They those courses hold up to championship play a lot 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:49.120 better than four par fives, because especially in these days, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.200 you know, if you if you have four par fives, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.480 the tour pros are going to be starting off ten 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.640 under par for the you know, for the four rounds. Anyway, 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:01.680 that's not the case when you only have two par fives. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:04.119 And it's kind of interesting that the two par fives 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.480 on the are the are in the first four holes. 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.000 But it's not like all of a sudden like where 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:11.720 as a par fives on the rest of the round. 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.440 The rhythm and flow keeps you really centered and focused. 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:22.200 So there are three three acts to Marian Again, I 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.960 talked about the first hole being short, but it's kind 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.639 of nerve wracking anyway, because you're hitting in front of 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.480 all these people sitting in the upper terrace having lunch 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.359 ten feet away from it. Yeah, it's kind of a prologue, 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.240 is how I like to put it. Yeah, the first 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.399 hole is a prologue, and it feels that way, not 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:43.679 only because it's short, but because it's on the clubhouse 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.800 side of the property. After the first green, you cross 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:50.320 Ardmore Avenue and you get to the second hole, and 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.520 that that that's when the first act in this three 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.600 act structure really begins, and that first act is. 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.840 Tough and dramatic. Jerry Party, who came up with this 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:07.000 three act concept, said that this was the drama portion 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:07.760 of the play. 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.280 Brilliant ret Marion, so it really brought. 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.640 Yeah, it's that's a really it's a really good It's 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:16.080 it's been used a lot to describe Marian so obviously 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.720 it's been sticky. So you get through that first act, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.159 which is which is the drama section, then you get 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.200 to the seventh te and where does it go from there? 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.560 How does how did the acts play out from there? 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.359 So from between seven and thirteen from the member tees 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.520 the white teas that you know, there's no hole over 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:37.359 four hundred yards. But to me, I think it starts 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.640 building towards the finishing the back five, because the back 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:43.280 five to me, I don't I can't think of another one, 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:47.080 maybe Carnousti, but I think it falls short of the 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:52.240 hardest finishing golf. So the middle section seven through thirteen. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.639 That's called comedy because it whereas the original, you know, 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.200 the first six holes requires a lot of length demands 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:04.600 and controlling your shot shape and. 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.760 How you approach the greens. The middle holes are all 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.800 relatively short, but precision is elevated. You have to be 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.679 really precise. It's you're not gonna there's no way to 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:20.000 score from the rough, so you really have to play 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.159 for the fair way, and that kind of changes people's minds. 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.199 It was amazing how few drivers people and you know 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.520 use in the in the in you know, the US 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.840 Open or high level amateur play. So that makes the 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.919 courus at sixties eight hundred yards or whatever they're going 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.439 to play at play a lot longer because you're not 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.520 bombing three hundred yard drives on on the bar fours 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.360 and the bar fives. There's nothing it's you know, easy, 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:50.880 there's nothing that's simplistic about the design. It was sort 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.280 of if you think it's relentless, isn't it. It's every 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.640 shot is is tough, not in the sense that every 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:05.679 shot is necessarily but there's complexity and discomfort to pretty 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:07.280 much every shot you hit on this course. 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.639 And I think to bring it back to routing. A 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:13.000 lot of that is down to the routing of the 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.520 golf course because you're never playing the same type of 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.800 hole twice. The amount of variety that the routing finds 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:25.280 in this very small property is really impressive. I mean, 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.880 this was I think the only way for Hugh Wilson 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.600 and William Flynn to solve the puzzle of how to 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.800 route eighteen holes on this property in this particular way. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:39.000 Each hole is different, each hole gives you some new 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:43.880 kind of issue to confront, and it all fits in 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.960 really tightly. And that's kind of the magic of the 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.359 routing of the East course at at Marion. I think 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.840 that's probably why people say that it's one of the 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:59.399 best routings, if not the best routing in the world 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.000 of golf. Don't you think? Is that? 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:03.040 Is that kind of like, I mean, why why is 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.919 it that you what's your general take on, you know, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.520 where this routing kind of ranks among the routings of. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.679 Golf courses that you've seen all of them? 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.640 Well, I'll expand on that a little bit. I think 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.280 William Flynn was the best router of golf courses in America. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:18.200 He would take up he was a first of all 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.960 a really quick study. Now he didn't he didn't route 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.119 the golf course, but he learned about routing. Mary. This 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.639 was sort of his his uh school guess yeah right, 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:34.280 and you and Hugh Wilson was his professor. Souh. If 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:39.920 you look at so the routing. One of the aspects 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.520 of the routing that's very hard to discern unless you've 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.199 played it a thousand plus times like I have, is 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.879 the elevation changes. They're not that evident. If you're standing 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:51.560 on the third T and you look at the third 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.960 green and then you look out, you have to cross 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.600 over this from the second green to the third T, 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.359 you have to cross over the sixth hole. But if 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.359 you're standing on the third T, it looks like the 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.280 third green is twenty feet higher in elevation than the 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:10.480 sixth screen, which is way out there. In actuality, the 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.800 sixth green is ten feet higher in elevation than the 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:17.160 third green. To me, that's a classic example of what 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.560 Flynn learned it, Marian, and what he practiced later on 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:24.000 is your eye has a lot of difficulty in judging 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:27.840 elevation changes over long distance, and a lot of that 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:34.080 has to do with what he learned there. It's just 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:38.600 it's incredible how how many times really good golfers are 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.880 short on their approaches to both five and six. Actually 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:48.520 they're both elevated from the approach shots. The other thing 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:52.399 at the other aspect that I think is really interesting 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:57.760 about the routing is how again it hearkens back to 0:22:57.840 --> 0:22:59.840 what the rhythm and flow of the golf course is. 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.960 You have drama, you have comedy, then you have tragedy. 0:23:03.560 --> 0:23:06.280 So what goes on in your head while you're playing 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:10.040 the short holes the seven through thirteen is geez, I 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.080 better get some good scores in because I know I'm 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.280 going to have trouble at the end, and for whatever 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.560 reason psychologically, that really affects you. So a hole that 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:20.200 might be if it was somewhere else in the routing 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:22.840 or the routing progression was a little bit different, it 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.000 has a different effect on you because of where it 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.680 is in the position. You know, the out of bounds 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:29.480 is on the right hand side on the front nine. 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:31.800 Out of bounds is on the left hand side on 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.760 the back nine. So you really, you know, singles, if 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.720 you can shape your shot, you're rewarded tremendously. 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.200 So your discussion of out of bounds can bring us 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:46.720 to Marion's hazards. So, first of all, out of bounds 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.760 is a significant hazard at Maryon. It comes very much 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:54.679 into play on several holes, and so you know, what 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:57.280 do you think the impact of that is? How do 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:02.359 the holes use those boundaries lines? Well, some of it 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.080 are more strategic than others. I mean, the second hole, 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.199 the long part uphill par five, you got to keep 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:09.920 it left, you know, you got to keep it left 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:13.360 of the of the street, and that's you know, Ardmore Avenue. 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.920 But there's not that much difference between You're not rewarded 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.760 so much for playing on the you know, close to 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:24.479 the out of bounds there, but on the on the 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:26.720 for instance, the next hole that goes in that direction 0:24:27.320 --> 0:24:30.720 would be the sixth hole, and there's out of bounds 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:32.399