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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session four twenty of the Therapy

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Speaker 1: for Black Girls podcasts. We'll get right into our conversation

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Speaker 1: after word from our sponsors. In this insightful and soul

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Speaker 1: stirring episode, I'm joined by award winning scholar ethno musicologists

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Speaker 1: and cultural anthropologists doctor Kira Gaunt. Together we explore the

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Speaker 1: powerful intersections of music, play and identity in the lives

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Speaker 1: of black girls and women. Doctor Gaunt, author of the

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Speaker 1: Games Black Girls Play, Learning the Roles from Double Dutch

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Speaker 1: to Hip Hop, offers a brilliant breakdown of how musical

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Speaker 1: play like handgames cheers and jump rope rhymes does more

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Speaker 1: than entertain. It becomes a form of cultural transmission, identity building,

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Speaker 1: and resistance for black girls navigating their earliest social worlds.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tvg

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Speaker 1: in session, or join us over in our Patreon community

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Speaker 1: to talk more about the episode. You can join us

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Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today, doctor Gaunt.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very excited to chat with you. So I'd

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Speaker 1: love for you to get us started by saying a

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Speaker 1: little bit about who you are and your work as

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Speaker 1: an ethnomusicologist.

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Speaker 2: I am a digital ethne musicologist. One of my missions

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Speaker 2: is to help emerging adults own their own greatness.

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Speaker 3: I have been an.

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Speaker 2: Advocate for black girlhood studies. Well I'm considered one of

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Speaker 2: the progenitors of the field with my book The Games

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Speaker 2: Black Girls Play, Learning the Ropes from Double Dutch to

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Speaker 2: Hip Hop, which won best prize in the discipline of

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Speaker 2: Ethnic Musicology Backhat in two thousand and seven. The idea

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Speaker 2: of black girl's handclapping, games, cheers, and double Dutch has

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Speaker 2: been a source and a resource of so many aspects

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Speaker 2: of how my work has been influencing a wave of

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Speaker 2: arts and culture. Since then, I have turned my dissertation

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Speaker 2: into a book that became an award winning book. That

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Speaker 2: book influenced Camille A. Brown and Dancers in twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 2: and a piece called Black Girl Linguistic Play that led

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Speaker 2: to being interviewed for a documentary that came out in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three called Black Girl's Play A Story of

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Speaker 2: Hand Games, which was produced by Marsha Cook, African American

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Speaker 2: woman at ESPNVP at ESPN Films and head of thirty

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Speaker 2: for thirty Films, and that is now still on Disney Plus.

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Speaker 2: And it won an NACP Image Award in twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: four and became shortlisted for the Oscars that year as well.

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Speaker 2: We lost out to a film that I adore, another

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Speaker 2: documentary on music called The Last Repair Shop. I highly

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Speaker 2: recommend both of those. I grew up in Rockhill, Maryland,

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Speaker 2: in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area the DMB, and I

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Speaker 2: now try to empower emerging adults to own their greatness

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Speaker 2: at the University of Albany in New York, Upstate.

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Speaker 3: New York Beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I love such a condensed but powerful biography, and so

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Speaker 1: I love that you own your place as one of

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Speaker 1: the pioneers in black girlhood studies. Now, did you know

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Speaker 1: that you were pioneering a field when you set out

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Speaker 1: to do this week?

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Speaker 2: You know this is great for this podcast, therapy for

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Speaker 2: black girls. This work has been therapy for me. I

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Speaker 2: grew up an only child. I now understand, as I'm

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Speaker 2: working on my second book, that I've been trying to

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Speaker 2: heal some trauma, mostly emotional trauma, emotional manipulation from when

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Speaker 2: I was coming of age sexually. I was a late

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Speaker 2: bloomer around my sexual onset at nineteen, my diaries was invaded.

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Speaker 2: I was an only child that was very excruciatingly shy,

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Speaker 2: and I grew up in a household that this might

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Speaker 2: be the first time I've ever said this online or

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Speaker 2: in a public forum, but my mother was a single mom,

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Speaker 2: and she dated and had a boyfriend live with us

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Speaker 2: for quite a while in my adolescence. Who was a

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Speaker 2: big time My mom's going to kill me, But I've

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Speaker 2: been a big time drug dealer, who wasn't a street dealer.

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Speaker 2: He sold to earthwine and Fire and people like Gilt

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Speaker 2: Scott Heron in the DCA area, and I remember going

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Speaker 2: to a hotel with my mother's boyfriend to see Johnny

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Speaker 2: guitar Watson in his hotel so they could make a deal.

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Speaker 2: It was really difficult for me because I'm a truth teller.

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Speaker 2: I don't like lying until I do. Always say everybody's

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Speaker 2: got secrets and lies that they passed through and hopefully heal.

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Speaker 2: I ended up going to therapy to try and I

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Speaker 2: would say exercise that for myself. When I was in

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Speaker 2: graduate school at University of Michigan Goblu and so I've

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Speaker 2: been on a therapy journey. Twenty nineteen, I was at

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Speaker 2: another crossroads where I thought, I think I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to be able to finish my job. I was feeling

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Speaker 2: really overwhelmed, particularly at the beginning of twenty twenty, and

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Speaker 2: I went searching for a new therapist and I couldn't

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Speaker 2: find one. I really wanted a black woman, but I

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Speaker 2: couldn't find one. As soon as the government allowed people

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Speaker 2: to do therapy for free, I found the first person

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Speaker 2: who I could find who had an easy way to

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Speaker 2: access them. He's a white male who specializes in music therapy.

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Speaker 2: We don't even do that. He just listens to me,

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Speaker 2: and that has been the greatest gift I've gotten from therapy.

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Speaker 2: He's not telling me what to do.

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Speaker 3: He's tesla.

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Speaker 2: He was like, I don't really have anything to tell

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Speaker 2: you. You seem to process things for yourself very well, and

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to listen. So therapy, I would still prefer

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Speaker 2: to have a black woman as a therapist, but now

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Speaker 2: I have four years with him, and I'm like, not changing,

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Speaker 2: But I get a lot of resources from like all

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Speaker 2: of us do, from TikTok or YouTube or podcasts like

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Speaker 2: this to try and amplify that journey of healing. Music

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Speaker 2: is one art has become a new one.

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Speaker 3: My drawing.

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Speaker 2: My friend Pierre Benus says, have you arted today by

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Speaker 2: just sketching, drawing? Whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: So, when you wrote the book, what was the reception like,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like there's more support maybe now, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like when you were writing this book, I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing it was a different time. What was the reception

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Speaker 1: for work, scholarly work around the games that black girls play?

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Speaker 2: Maybe because I have been an only child and been

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Speaker 2: kind of a loner, a lone wolf ranger. I did

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Speaker 2: receive or experience a lot of resistance. My work really

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Speaker 2: was about hip hop at the time, and there were

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Speaker 2: very few scholars of hip hop. In fact, I just

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Speaker 2: wrote an article that the early scholars in that domain

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Speaker 2: and the music field were all black women. There's five

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Speaker 2: of us who were writing about hip hop studies and

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Speaker 2: helped launch hip hop music studies. But we weren't at

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Speaker 2: the same institutions many were at Indiana, I was at Michigan.

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Speaker 2: We weren't really connected, and so it was just the

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Speaker 2: journey of hearing to twin seven year old girls playing

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Speaker 2: a handclapping game when I was on an Ethny musicology conference,

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Speaker 2: a regional conference that happened at Michigan, and thinking it

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Speaker 2: sounds like hip hop.

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Speaker 3: You exchange beats like you.

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Speaker 2: Can find the same game song, and I began to

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Speaker 2: see a really strong connection. So I think, on one hand,

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Speaker 2: while black girls games are minimized as not really serious

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Speaker 2: study or a serious play or a sport, at the time,

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Speaker 2: the music, the magic of music still drew people into it.

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Speaker 2: It's captivating. It's why the new ad for Asia Wilson

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Speaker 2: has the melody of Mary Max set to new lyrics

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Speaker 2: with a new framework, because music still is really one

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Speaker 2: of our oldest technologies. We used music when we started

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Speaker 2: walking up right, to sing a lullaby to a baby

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Speaker 2: on your back while you were hunting and gathering or foraging.

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Speaker 2: They say it's the root of our language, and I

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Speaker 2: like to say that it's all that we hear in

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Speaker 2: black speech, like hmmm, girl, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: He is fine. All of those tonnel things are what

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Speaker 2: shapes musical blackness.

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Speaker 3: It shapes musical speech. It shapes all.

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Speaker 2: Of the period things that we do, including a good

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Speaker 2: curse word or two, the way that we say them.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful melody.

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Speaker 2: It's an age.

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Speaker 1: I would love to hear your thoughts about the way

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Speaker 1: that the games that black girls play has evolved, right,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like I see very few little black

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Speaker 1: girls playing hand games now because they are on TikTok, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I think it looks different. But yes, I'd

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Speaker 1: love to hear your perspective of how has evolved over

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Speaker 1: the years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it does look different.

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Speaker 2: And there is not Unlike the history and the study

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Speaker 2: of music or in the applications of music, we're always

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Speaker 2: bemoaning new technologies violins were not meant to beat. Trees

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Speaker 2: were not meant to be violins. So sometime back in

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Speaker 2: I would guess as somebody was, like, why are you

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Speaker 2: using a tree to make some instrument to make some

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Speaker 2: music when you could just sing with your voice and

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Speaker 2: your body. But we don't have a lot of records

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Speaker 2: of that because European classical music is lauded. Whenever we

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Speaker 2: see the movement which is just continuous in the African

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Speaker 2: and African American diaspora, of new interpretations of the same beats,

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Speaker 2: the changing same amer.

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Speaker 3: Baraka called it.

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Speaker 2: So black girls hand clapping games have whatever's new and innovative.

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Speaker 2: When I was first doing my research, they were talking

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Speaker 2: about Bobby Brown and Michael Tyson in hand clapping games,

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Speaker 2: and she and Harlem, and so we're constantly seeing an

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Speaker 2: evolution of it. So when we're older and we don't

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Speaker 2: see girls on the playground or the McDonald sitting in

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Speaker 2: the thing doing hand clapping games like we might have

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Speaker 2: seen in the eighties, nineties and maybe the early aughts,

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Speaker 2: we feel a loss of culture. But we also as

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Speaker 2: women and girls, particularly as girls, I like to distinguish

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Speaker 2: between us. I know we all call ourselves girls. But

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Speaker 2: little girls get lost, adolescent girls get lost in us

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Speaker 2: naming ourselves that way. As adults, we long for that,

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Speaker 2: we long for the nostalgia of our past, and so

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Speaker 2: we don't see that the transition has happened online it

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Speaker 2: has despite the fact. In fact, I will say there

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Speaker 2: are consequences that the play like The Renegade by Julia

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Speaker 2: Harmon is on TikTok because basically the social mobility that

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Speaker 2: we were seeking when we moved from protesting public accommodations

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Speaker 2: and being able to move into the public sphere have

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Speaker 2: now been reduced to a private sphere where some people

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Speaker 2: are still struggling to maintain good health because they don't

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Speaker 2: have enough literal mobility, and they don't have the same

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Speaker 2: social mobility that you had, say when you were in

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Speaker 2: the Green Book and you traveled up and down to

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Speaker 2: see cousins in the south or in the north. There's

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Speaker 2: so many things that are the same and many things

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Speaker 2: that are different. We still travel for funerals and weddings

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Speaker 2: and barbecues, but I think it's more disconnected because our

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Speaker 2: mothers in particular and our fathers.

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Speaker 3: Are working more, are hustling more.

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Speaker 2: Our gig economy more if they can maintain their job,

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Speaker 2: especially since COVID and so for girls, we don't see

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Speaker 2: their play the way we used to literally and figuratively.

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Speaker 2: But black girls still magic in their ways they do things.

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Speaker 2: Especially it is a favorite video of mine. It's probably

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Speaker 2: a little dated, but it's these four little, like five

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Speaker 2: year old girls dressed to go to the pool, and

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Speaker 2: Mama or an auntie or somebody is saying, They're like,

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Speaker 2: where are you going to the pool? Do it? Now?

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Speaker 2: That essence for all girls tends to disappear around the

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Speaker 2: age of nine, start to be socialized into externally focusing

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Speaker 2: on your body, thinking that you're too fat or not

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Speaker 2: fat enough, or it don't have a butt, You ain't

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Speaker 2: black if you don't have the right kind of butt,

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Speaker 2: or your hair is too kinky, your hair is too straight.

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Speaker 2: It's just disproportionately affecting people of color, women of color,

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Speaker 2: black women, the anti blackness, the misogynire, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's with the digital technology now in our bedrooms more

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Speaker 2: than when we just had a TV that was one way.

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Speaker 2: I think it's more harmful in many ways to young

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Speaker 2: girls because they don't see it coming, see the harm coming.

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Speaker 2: The same way you would watch maybe an older sister

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Speaker 2: go through stuff, or an older cousin, or learn from cousins.

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Speaker 2: Even as an only child, I've learned from people in

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Speaker 2: my black community. I grew up in Rockville, Maryland. It's

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Speaker 2: different when you got so much information coming at you.

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Speaker 2: And black girls and black boys are the largest consumers

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Speaker 2: of media on the social media landscape. We're occupying our

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Speaker 2: time with television or televised media more than any other demographic.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's to our detriment that we're not

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Speaker 2: outside getting green stuff, smelling air. I'm looking at the

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Speaker 2: park outside of my apartment, ripping branches off the trees

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Speaker 2: because you're so bored you don't know how to respect nature,

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Speaker 2: you know, I was looking. I'm a YouTube fanatic. I

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Speaker 2: know it's dated, but it's the archive, not actually, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know for some people as dated, like YouTube, it's

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Speaker 2: where you archive things. It's not where you go. It's

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Speaker 2: where you go to find the thing you couldn't find

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Speaker 2: on TikTok or Instagram. But it's got everything. Like you

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Speaker 2: couldn't find Jamaican folk recordings of music on record before.

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Speaker 2: Now you can just search for a video somebody's home

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Speaker 2: movie that got uploaded. So I'm looking at the Library

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Speaker 2: of Congress is doing a special panel that's recorded on

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Speaker 2: YouTube of an African storyteller, and he starts to tell

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Speaker 2: a story about when Rwanda went through its genocide. They

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Speaker 2: sent white therapists mental health workers in and they were like,

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Speaker 2: why are you making us sit on a couch and

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Speaker 2: tell stories instead of telling us to do what we do,

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Speaker 2: which is go outside, run get some good air. And

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Speaker 2: I thought, Wow, how profound we have free aspects to healing,

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Speaker 2: and yet we're stuck in front of our devices most

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Speaker 2: of the time. I just was saying this to my

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Speaker 2: partner this morning. I am addicted to this technology and

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Speaker 2: I will want to quiet my nervous system more.

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Speaker 3: But I'm so, you know, like.

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Speaker 2: I can't get this phone away from me enough.

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Speaker 3: It's designed to be that way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but you know, I'm a scholar and

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Speaker 2: I know that. But just like losing weight, knowing how

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Speaker 2: to lose weight is not how you lose weight, practice

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Speaker 2: actually doing things and having a community to maintain that

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Speaker 2: in I think the best things that I have learned

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Speaker 2: for myself is I got to do it in a group.

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Speaker 3: I can't do it alone, the only.

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Speaker 2: Child, and he really loves like even my partner sits

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Speaker 2: and listens to me writing my books on zoom.

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Speaker 3: He says, I'm like, are you enjoying this? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break you'd left to go,

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Speaker 1: and I would love to hear. And I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: have so many years of research here about like some

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Speaker 1: of the therapeutic impact of the games that black girls play. Right,

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Speaker 1: So going back to the community that you just talked about,

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Speaker 1: what are some other ways that is really impactful, I

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Speaker 1: think in good for our mental health the games that

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Speaker 1: black girls play.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for asking. I'm trying to put these resources,

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Speaker 2: in fact on a website that I'm just developing called

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Speaker 2: my Black Girlsplay dot com. And it's neuroscience, it's physiological,

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Speaker 2: and it's a concept that I am really interested in

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Speaker 2: spreading its interroceptive awareness.

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Speaker 3: So first, the.

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Speaker 2: Fact that I know Patty Cake has often thought of

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Speaker 2: as the first games, but that's between mothers and daughters

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Speaker 2: or daughters and parents. The games that black girls play

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Speaker 2: across age groups. Has you touch I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you've ever seen one of these ping pongs that when

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Speaker 2: you touch the little metal things that will light up

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Speaker 2: and go when you touch people in a circle. The

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Speaker 2: electricity between us can light up a ball that has

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Speaker 2: electrodes on it. If you let one person's hands go,

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Speaker 2: the ball won't light up. So there's a current, or

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Speaker 2: you could say a spirit going through our bodies that

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Speaker 2: once we close a loop, we actually may not be

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Speaker 2: conscious of it, but we're healing aspects of who we

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Speaker 2: are as human beings. It's this ancient thing that's what

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Speaker 2: I see as animating you is part of that energy

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Speaker 2: and sharing that energy is healing, and the brain knows

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Speaker 2: the difference between say, watching a video of that and

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Speaker 2: actually physically doing it. It's also that the hormones my

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Speaker 2: breath is touching is mixing with the air molecules that

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Speaker 2: touch your body, those things you cannot get from a screen.

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Speaker 2: And so there's that aspect that's really health promoting, health nurturing.

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Speaker 2: There's the idea that singing.

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Speaker 3: Together is really valuable.

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Speaker 2: They call it entrainment. That's why military marching bands, which

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Speaker 2: actually came from black fraternities in the ROTCS, is a

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Speaker 2: way to form bonding. There's the musical aspect, Like I

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Speaker 2: said earlier about that it's one of our oldest technologies.

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Speaker 2: We use it to soothe ourselves in anxious moments, just.

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Speaker 3: I love the Lord, you my cry.

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Speaker 2: And then have a bunch of people sir, well, you're

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Speaker 2: doing the same things in girls' game songs. Zor Neil

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Speaker 2: Hurston documented a lot of children's game songs and a

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Speaker 2: lot of work songs and play songs. Those things have

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Speaker 2: a unifying community building process and property that's physiological, mental,

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Speaker 2: and psychological. And we take it for granted that playing

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Speaker 2: more games as you sing, a lot more black women

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Speaker 2: go out.

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Speaker 3: And do double dutch.

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Speaker 2: It really is healing, and not for competition, just for

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Speaker 2: the bonding that's created from within, instead of from recordings

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Speaker 2: from following the billboard charts singles or what's hot on TikTok,

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Speaker 2: but actually the things that we can generate with our bodies.

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Speaker 2: So there's the neuroscience behind that. There's a physiological entrainment

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Speaker 2: and connection, and it promotes sharing. It promotes what they

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Speaker 2: call the mirroragen. So if I look in your eyes,

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Speaker 2: I see myself in you.

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Speaker 3: It builds empathy.

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Speaker 2: There are just so many properties. You play these games

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Speaker 2: and call and response and you always get to have

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Speaker 2: your turn in it ule not ute, stay back, that's me.

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Speaker 2: Oo le ou leh not ute, stay back, this's me.

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Speaker 2: We all sing in unison, and then you go, Kira

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Speaker 2: is my name, and kickiness my game. I got the simple,

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Speaker 2: the potion and dot down be ocean and I go ooh,

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Speaker 2: she thinks she bad, baby, baby, don't get me man.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, she thinks she cute, cute, cute too cute. Ooh,

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Speaker 3: she thinks she.

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Speaker 2: Fine, fine enough for n oh, fine enough for ma cho,

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Speaker 2: fine enough for hululup, find enough for all your group,

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Speaker 2: and then singing in and the next person gets to go,

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Speaker 2: So it's do overs. You never get kicked out of

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Speaker 2: the game. You always get to be a part of

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Speaker 2: a community, and then that community changes constantly. You get

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Speaker 2: a biological family, but this becomes generations of logical family members,

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Speaker 2: logical moments of kin that help.

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Speaker 3: You discover aspects of yourself.

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Speaker 2: That your family cannot. Maybe you don't want to be

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Speaker 2: like your mother and your sister or your brother, and

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Speaker 2: you meet somebody who makes you your blood boy, but

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Speaker 2: it's because you kind of like the way that they are,

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Speaker 2: and then you're like, no, I could be like that,

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Speaker 2: Why can't I be like that. Yeah, got wear contacts

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00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,919
Speaker 2: in my lens. You know, all of the experimentation that

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Speaker 2: comes from adolescents that people pooh pooh is and the

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Speaker 2: William May Rock camp for girls they call it Don't

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Speaker 2: Yuck my young mm hmm. Where you're you're experimenting, You're

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Speaker 2: not landing on anything yet, but you're experimenting. You might

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Speaker 2: do lots of things that you won't land on by

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Speaker 2: the time you're thirty. Yeah, but they're all a part

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Speaker 2: of creating the you that you are. So games bring

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Speaker 2: a lot of energy to them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of your work has also talked

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Speaker 1: about how frivolous girls' games have been right because girls

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Speaker 1: are playing them right, so they're not seen as like

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Speaker 1: these important things, which you've already talked about how important

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Speaker 1: they are for.

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Speaker 2: Lots of different reasons.

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Speaker 1: What would you say for women and girls maybe who

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Speaker 1: are still struggling with affirmation and validation because people talk

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Speaker 1: about their work and the things that are important to

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Speaker 1: them as frivile is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Have to link to this piece that I just

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Speaker 2: wrote for the Asia Wilson Nike ad to mention Asia

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Speaker 2: Wilson's book that came out last year called Dear Black Girls.

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Speaker 2: She tells this story about and why this is relevant.

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Speaker 2: I'm in my sixties and this story seems like it

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Speaker 2: was right out of Jim Crow and we're talking. This

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00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 2: is from the late nineties early two thousands, that she

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00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: was in a school that was predominantly white. She had

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Speaker 2: some mixed a mixed group of friends, and one of

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Speaker 2: her besties she was having a birthday party and everybody

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Speaker 2: in the hallways was talking about the birthday party. And

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Speaker 2: then she ran into her bestie, one of her besties,

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Speaker 2: and she said, you heard that it's a slumber party, right.

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Speaker 2: She goes, yeah, of course I have. She goes, you

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Speaker 2: might have to sleep outside. And she goes, what do

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Speaker 2: I need to get boots or something? Is this like

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00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 2: an outside thing? She goes, no, my dad doesn't really

401
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 2: like black people. Like what, this is South Carolina? I

402
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 2: know it is South Carolina. That's the place that the

403
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: flat Okay, I got it, Confederate flag waving area. But

404
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: you still don't believe that this could be happening to.

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Speaker 3: Little black girls today.

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Speaker 2: So her story is that you'll have many birthday party moments.

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Speaker 3: Like these throughout your life.

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Speaker 2: Asia's mom's job was for her was to have a

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Speaker 2: community or have somebody who really truly believes in you.

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Speaker 2: And for me, if I had been in her shoes

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Speaker 2: and it's not it's apples and oranges. Because I wasn't athletic,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of people around me, I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I would have found someone who I

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Speaker 2: thought saw me as valued worth listening to, not worth

415
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Speaker 2: bossing around. My mother did not fully grasp the being

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00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: who I was. I was a poet. She hated poetry.

417
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: I loved the romantic movie love story and stuff.

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Speaker 3: She would always pooh pooh me about.

419
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: I can't believe you like that romantic stuff. And so

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00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: I think the message to me as someone, if I

421
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: could impart some wisdom to even twenty year olds who

422
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 2: might be listening, is that you have to put yourself

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00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: first and get that everybody can't see you right away

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00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: Eve and your mother, even your siblings, and that your path.

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00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 2: You can't be afraid to pursue that path without dimming

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00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: your light. I think a lot of us. I would

427
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 2: say I even dimmed my light when people were giving

428
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 2: me shine because I had so little self esteem, because

429
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: I didn't have anybody saying you know it's okay.

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Speaker 3: You're good the way you are.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes I'm seeing the benefit of some of social

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00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: media that I wish I had had, which you find

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Speaker 2: some influencer or just another black girl, or maybe it's

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Speaker 2: not a black girl. This resonates with my spirit and

435
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: my soul. So I'm going to watch this every day

436
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: for a while. The thing that I would add that

437
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: I think comes from the lessons of Black Girls Play

438
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: is the repetition, and that repetition builds habits, and habits

439
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: build beliefs. So sometimes you'll need to stand in the

440
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: mirror and say I'm worthy, even if you're saying I

441
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 2: want to be I don't know Beyonce. Remember to say

442
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 2: that I'm not Beyonce, but I'm me. But I can

443
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: do anything with what I desire for my life. I

444
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: don't like faked till you make it. I like copon

445
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: attitude of confidence. And then you got to do something

446
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: behind that every day, do something little like, Okay, you're

447
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: trying to lose weight and you think you have too

448
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 2: much to lose, Okay, then walk for a minute today,

449
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: walk for two minutes tomorrow, Jog slowly. You ain't got

450
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: a job if you don't like jogging, walk, then just

451
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: increase that daily and maybe take a day off after

452
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: three days. My thing is you can do a lot

453
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: with a little.

454
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: In psychology, we have something called play therapy right where

455
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: therapist we'll use play as a way of kind of

456
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: helping students, usually young people, but with adults even right

457
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: because play is still important throughout our lives.

458
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 3: Really help you to access some emotional things.

459
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: And I understand that there is a similar model in

460
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: musicology called Luto musicology. Can you say more about what

461
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: that is and how it's used.

462
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: This is really interesting. It's not a play therapy per se.

463
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 2: And I've been told by people who call themselves Luto

464
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 2: musicologists that my work is one of the progenitors of

465
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: that field. So this is the study of play in music.

466
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: I just spent a week interviewing candidates for our position

467
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: for a game audio and music tech person. So we're

468
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: talking about the music and the sounds that a company

469
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: for shooter games, games like Spider Man. There's some period

470
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: or menstruation games out there that young women have developed.

471
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 2: So the music the folly from the film perspective, the

472
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: footsteps in a drama, to the sounds that you hear

473
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: in the Asia Nike ad by Jennet and Kiu has

474
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 2: additional layers of sound to just the collapse. There's like

475
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: the sound of a basketball layered on top of it,

476
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: the sound of heavy baslike texture on top of it. Is

477
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: so that there's a sense of being immersed in a

478
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: social experience or lived experience because of the sound. So

479
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 2: little musicology is about that. I think about the ways

480
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: that we self soothe with music all the time. If

481
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: I may, I'm writing a book called played, How music

482
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: orchestrates violence against Black girls on YouTube, and it could

483
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: be from YouTube to TikTok, And the idea is that

484
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: I just spent the last couple of days really being inspired,

485
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: writing about how so many aspects of our young lives

486
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 2: as tweens or adolescents is about learning to accept pain,

487
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: and it's ironic that we use music to mitigate. For example,

488
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: I study a data set of tworking videos on YouTube,

489
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: and the music is there in your bedroom for play

490
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: like it was when I was young listening to Diana

491
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: Ross or Shaka Khan or Mini ripitin in my bedroom

492
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: with a boombox and a cassette player making mixtapes. But

493
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: I didn't have people commenting on what I was doing

494
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: in my play, so that if I uploaded a video

495
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: onto YouTube in twenty thirteen or twenty eleven from New Orleans,

496
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: I didn't have people saying, why don't you take off

497
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: more of your clothes in the next video? In my

498
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 2: own sanctuary of my bedroom, especially for only children like me,

499
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,239
Speaker 2: or we tend to have, most of my students are

500
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: afraid of doing things in.

501
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 3: Front of each other. They're just really there's a great.

502
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: Deal of mental anguish and anxiety and overthinking about what

503
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: other people might think of them because they're not being

504
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: exposed to real face to face interaction, so they're lacking

505
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: the exposure. Kind of like you know, the United States

506
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: has a lot of allergies. They say peanut allergies are

507
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: really a lack of exposure to peanuts. It's not that

508
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,239
Speaker 2: you can't eat peanuts, it's just that you don't have

509
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: enough so that your body adjusts to exposure to it.

510
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: So we have been I call it like a kind

511
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: of a climate disaster for black girls through music, because

512
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: we're constantly exposed to music that is telling us that

513
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: we are a female dog, a female cow. For Megan

514
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: a male horse, animalization, adultification, treating you like you're older,

515
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: especially online, then coming below your video saying it's twelve

516
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: year olds video. I'm thirty one and I know I'm

517
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: a little old for you, but you're the one for me,

518
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: and then her responding board af and on. That is

519
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: the first connection. And all you do in child sexual

520
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: grooming is to treat a young girl who is looking

521
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: seeking attention like she's older. And you have the makings

522
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: of my probably millions of girls who've had contact with

523
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: adults that's been inappropriate, and despite the fact that they

524
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: may never meet Emotional abuse and violence can be far

525
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: more harmful than even the eventual physical the thing that

526
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: leads to physical abuse, because the power is manipulating your

527
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: sense of reality of what's right and wrong, what's truthful,

528
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: what's honest, and you may not figure that out until

529
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 2: you're fifty. You might not even understand how it all

530
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: fit together. They say the body keeps score. That stuff

531
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: is there, and so when we're repeatedly exposed to things

532
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: that we think is playful and entertaining, it can also

533
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: bring in a cipher of harm that we're not aware

534
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: of until much later. The thing about music therapy is

535
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 2: you can't have a plus and a minus to get well.

536
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: You can't be saying derogatory things while you love the music,

537
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: and when you're dancing to music, your prefrontal cortex is

538
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: not paying attention to the impact of what the words

539
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: are for you. So I was saying that the thing

540
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: that I've been writing about the last two days is

541
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: you remember when you were in my generation, when you

542
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: sat between your mother's knees while you're getting your hair done,

543
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: and if you complained about how it hurt, you were

544
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: called tender headed. So this is the first stop at

545
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: teaching you to ignore the most important thing. I think.

546
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: It's not just the neuroscience and the prefrontal cortext it's

547
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 2: listening to your body signal of fear, harm, abuse. Your

548
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: body automatically knows this isn't right, and you have a

549
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: visceral reaction. But then we've been tamed, or like animals

550
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: in husbandry, trained into not saying anything, not talking back.

551
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: I need more than a clap back here. I need

552
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: you to use your voice. I love the parents I

553
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: know in my network who have young girls who say,

554
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: tell Daddy, you didn't like that. You don't have to

555
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: sit on my uncle's lote. You don't have to. Grandma

556
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: kisses you on the lips. You don't like it, you

557
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: don't have to. You tell them I don't like that,

558
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: or you come tell me and I'll take care of it.

559
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: So I tell a.

560
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 2: Story in the writing. My mother's best friend was a hairdresser,

561
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: and my mother took me to her apartment to get

562
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: my first PERM. I was ten and that thing was

563
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: burning my cerebral cortex and I was like, if it's

564
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: kind of burning, she says, you got to leave it

565
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 2: on longer, k if you want to look pretty. And

566
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: I hate the name Ka. My name is Kira. I

567
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: never liked that nickname. Throughout my life. People called it

568
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: that because it couldn't say here parcically, they can't.

569
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 3: Say black girls names.

570
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: I hated the idea that I had to suffer through

571
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 2: the label being tender headed, even as an adult. I mean,

572
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: I've left Solarans. When they bring that up, I'm like,

573
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: I'm not coming back. When you call me tender headed,

574
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: I'm telling you I'm in pain, and you just keep

575
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 2: doing what you're doing.

576
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 3: All of these things.

577
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 2: Have shaped how we then say twerk as young girls,

578
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: or dance when I was young to she's a super freak.

579
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: She's super freaky. She's a very freaky girl.

580
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 3: The time you don't take home to mother.

581
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 2: So we've been entrained into an ideology that then, ultimately,

582
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 2: I want to say that people might not be happy

583
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: with this, but women are sustaining misogyny more than men,

584
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: and it's not intentional. It's that we've been entrained and

585
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: socialized into that oppression such that we are the progenitors

586
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 2: of the oppression to other girls and women. Girls and

587
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 2: women are trying to fight that off by If your

588
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: mother says, don't date that boy, you do it anyhow.

589
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: If someone says this is not a good thing for

590
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: you to be doing, you do it anyhow. This might

591
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: not be helpful. Like I said, it's only been since

592
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: I've been a late adult that I've begun to confront

593
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: those things through therapy, through journaling, through the research that

594
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: I'm doing for this book. When I have students sit down,

595
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: especially black women in my classes, and analyze the music

596
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: that they used to listen to and play with as

597
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: adolescents young adolescens, one woman was like, if my grandmother

598
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: knew what I was doing, I was interacting with all

599
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: kinds of adults. Said I never told her about why

600
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 2: because I don't want to lose my phone. I don't

601
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 2: want to lose my attachment to something that feels like connection.

602
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: But it's false.

603
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: Oudro Lord calls that the pornographic, the erotic is real.

604
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: The pornographic is the thing that is not. It's plastic sensation,

605
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: it's plastic feeling. Don't get hormones from it. You don't

606
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: get the good hormones of just the thing that you

607
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: get when you have a child, or with a baby,

608
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: or with your line, with your partner. There are hormones

609
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: that make you feel human, and you cannot get that

610
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: from a phone, no matter how hard you try. You're

611
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: only getting your own hormones. Right.

612
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So, you mentioned

613
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: that you were, you know, one of the early women

614
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: writing that. You said there were only about five of

615
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: you writing about hip hop. I would love to hear

616
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: your thoughts around like the evolution of hip hop, because

617
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: it sounds like it nicely dovetails into the book you're writing,

618
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: right like, Yeah, I'm sure that you've seen quite a

619
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: difference in the content that's being discussed but I also

620
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: think there are probably more hip hop artists that are women. Now,

621
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts around like how hip hop has

622
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: transformed and.

623
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 2: What does that mean? Bra Black Ye I love to

624
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: ask a question, So I'm going to test you. Okay,

625
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: how many women do you think we're topping the billboard

626
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 2: charts in two thousand and four? Now, two thousand and five,

627
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: the Grammy Foundation introduced the first female rap category. Okay,

628
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: so how many women do you think topped the billboard

629
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: charts in two thousand and four? So this was about

630
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: five I give you choices, Okay, three, five, eight or fifteen?

631
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: It's eight?

632
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: Three, yeah, it was fifteen.

633
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: There was Queen latifah MCOs Love, Missy Elliott was around,

634
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 2: Bill Kim has already been on the scene, Foxy Brown.

635
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 2: There were fifteen women on the top of the billboard

636
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: charts at that time. We had another resurfacing in twenty fourteen.

637
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: We're like, this is the year of the female rapper.

638
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: This era COVID has seen a plethora, just a wonderful

639
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: array of women. Maybe at the top of the charts

640
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: they all somewhat look alike, but from Rhapsody to Nicki

641
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: Minaje to I mean, we still have a little bit

642
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 2: of a spectrum, but at the top in the commercial realm,

643
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 2: it still looks kind of the same. But then in

644
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: the background there are just a host of women, So

645
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: it is related. It's funny. In mine, I teach a

646
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: hip hop class at U Albany, and I had one

647
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: hundred and forty students in two sections, at seventy in

648
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: each section, and we did a poster session. We have

649
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: a big research poster event where we paired hot girls

650
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: with hidden architects. So hip hop began by the latest

651
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: loure of history making hip hop again with Cool Herk

652
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: at a party in August eleventh, nineteen seventy three. But

653
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: it was his sister Cimby Campbell lastly through the party

654
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: and invited her little brother to come. And so that's

655
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 2: seventy three, and by seventy nine, Sylvia Robinson had the

656
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: first rap label, sugar Hill Records, with her husband Joe.

657
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: So we have a hot girl and a hidden figure.

658
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: I love for the girls to be young. There's Wonder Girl,

659
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: a Canadian beat maker and producer who was on Jay

660
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: Z's platinum selling album Magna Carter. She won a contest

661
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 2: when she was nine and then sixteen.

662
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 3: There's MC Light, There's.

663
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: Rock San Chante at fourteen. There's Shah Rack, the first

664
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: female rapper on cassette, who was on the first group,

665
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: the Fwanky four plus one that appeared on Saturday Night

666
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: Live in nineteen eighty one. There's the Fantastic four Double

667
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: Dutch team, the Champions of nineteen eighty who are on

668
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 2: the first international rap tour in nineteen eighty two to France,

669
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: Germany and England. And I just found that a woman

670
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: who was a part of hip hop double Dutch and

671
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: rapping and be girling in France has been doing a

672
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: study since nineteen eighty four when she began being a

673
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: part of hip hop about probably the influence of the

674
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: Fantastic Four Double Dutch Champions when they were touring in

675
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two. Is the only girls, the only females,

676
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: the only women on that tour with Africa Manbada Graham, Mixer,

677
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: DST and Rock Steady Crew. I'm trying to with my book,

678
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: on one hand, heal the way we or help us rethink.

679
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: Have another think about how hip hop has not been

680
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: for us while black women, as I've just described, have

681
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 2: been dominating the architecture of hip hop. Behind the soundboard

682
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: in the CEO boardroom, there's a white woman named Monica

683
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: Lynch who was president of Tommy Boar Records. That's how

684
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: we got digital underground in Tupac. That's how Queen Latifah

685
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: got her first record label. There's just so many women.

686
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: I've just not been telling their stories. Half the story

687
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: has never been told. We don't tell. I've been at

688
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: four major social innovation conferences in the last five years,

689
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: and a lot of them during Black Lives Matter were

690
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: hiring women DJs, even at National Women's Studies two years ago.

691
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: And these female DJs come in and play male artists,

692
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 2: Drake when I go up and say, hey, can you

693
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: play more women? Because you know, if you don't play them,

694
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: they don't get paid, they still won't change. So we've

695
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: got a lot of work. And I think that these

696
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: posters that I did with my students, like maybe eighty

697
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 2: people came through our post to session, but I know

698
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,919
Speaker 2: that the students have been changed. If each of them

699
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: tell three people, and then those three people tell three people,

700
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: we can impact three thousand people. And if those three

701
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 2: thousand people tell three people, it exponentially grows that women

702
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: have always been a part of hip hop. Girls in

703
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: particular happened really influential in the propagation of the perpetuation

704
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: of the promotion of behind the scenes on record in communities.

705
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: Of hip hop.

706
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 2: The best story is Ava du Verna began as a

707
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 2: rapper and did in that no bit. Her first film

708
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 2: is based on an underground indie scene from South central

709
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: I mean in the hood run by a woman my age, beholl.

710
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: The documentaries on YouTube called The Good Life. They were

711
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 2: not allowed to cuss, don't touch the paintings on the wall,

712
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 2: and they were good to women. They really respected women.

713
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: They let them be a part of the community instead

714
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: of be one of the boys.

715
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: You know.

716
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: I'm trying to help people be inspired by the journeys

717
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 2: that black girls and women bring, not only to our

718
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: communities but to the nation because.

719
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: We have had to do what.

720
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: Asia Wilson writes about about that story on the birthday party,

721
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: We have had to overcome a lot problem is who

722
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: comes for us, who comes, you know, nurturing us. Even

723
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 2: my partners like I can't really see when you're upset,

724
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: and I'm like, well, you got to train yourself to

725
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: do that. Because you know, if you just stop maybe

726
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: reading this and read the situation, you should know that

727
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: this situation ain't for anybody, and that I might not

728
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 2: be showing what I feel, but you could ask me.

729
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: You could ask me how was that? Because if I

730
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: was in your shoes, that would be challenging for me. Yeah,

731
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 2: we bear the truth of what African philosophy is all

732
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 2: about to me. Not the people who are corrupt in

733
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: the Congo, not the men who run these countries who

734
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: are corrupt, but the women who remind us that being together,

735
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: helping people heal, understanding that heard people hurt people, and

736
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: trying to both help but also sometimes help is to

737
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: distance oneself, to protect oneself first and foremost, put the

738
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: mask on yourself first. Nobody promised that it was going

739
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: to be easy. But you can find a way to

740
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 2: make life simple. But I like, I'm sure you're doing

741
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 2: the listeners to your podcast. No, you're not supposed to

742
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: do it alone. We were not designed to be alone.

743
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: We were not built to be alone. There's a lot

744
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: of noise up here, a lot of distortion, a lot

745
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: of things that need to be ironed out. Like I'm

746
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: always telling my students, I'm like, if your teacher says

747
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: write five hundred words, how many of you are written

748
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 2: over five hundred words? Didn't make a difference? No, then

749
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 2: why do you keep doing that? Or? Yeah, I learned

750
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: so much from my students. I have to give them

751
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 2: just much love, much flowers, much props. I asked my

752
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: student about how they felt. I was talking about Megan,

753
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 2: miss Stallion's name, which came from her being cat called

754
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 2: when she was fifteen, and she went home to her

755
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: uncle and said, unt, what does stallion mean? Who were

756
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: they used in the South to groom girls? He said, oh,

757
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: that just means you're tall and pretty. And I said,

758
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: how many of you in my class? How many of

759
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 2: you have felt uncomfortable when somebody talked to you in

760
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: a certain way when you were in high school? A

761
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: dozen women raise their hand, and when I asked them

762
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 2: how they felt about it, they said, I felt guilty,

763
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: I felt shamed. I felt this, And I'm like, why

764
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 2: are you feeling Why aren't you saying they should feel guilty?

765
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: They feel shame. But that's because we don't understand psychology.

766
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: We don't understand neuroscience, we don't understand how adolescent brain

767
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: is affected by things in different ways than the.

768
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 3: Child brain or the adult brain.

769
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: I wish we were teaching psychology and public health for

770
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: your everyday use like Black Girls play Mine. What do

771
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 2: I need to fit on.

772
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 3: To this sixty year old body?

773
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 2: That you need for your body and your background and

774
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: your place in the family and your place growing up

775
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 2: in abject poverty versus being in a wealthy family that

776
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: neglected you. Yeah, and so there's a lot you think

777
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: we should do. But you gotta always start with big door,

778
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 2: swing on little hinges. You gotta start small. It's overwhelming. Otherwise, Yeah,

779
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 2: it's really overwhelming. But we come from we are the

780
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: product of realized dreams, and we got to remember to

781
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,959
Speaker 2: hold those two things. It might not look good today,

782
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: but this too shall pass.

783
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: This sounds like this is gonna be a very powerful

784
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: follow up to already incredible Firend's book. So I know

785
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: people will be very excited to you tune in and

786
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: check it out once it's available. So tell us actter going,

787
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: where can we stay connected with you so that we

788
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: can stay updated about when the book and everything comes out.

789
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me a Kira

790
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 2: Gaunt or some variation of that Curra non PhD. I

791
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: am not on Twitter. I have a website called Kiraosity.

792
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: Curiosity is my old brand from my Twitter days. Curiosity

793
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 2: didn't kill the cat, so it's kyr my first name,

794
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 2: the letter O and the word city Kira of the city.

795
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: My heart belongs to Brooklyn, really or my news site,

796
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 2: which is my Black Girlsplay dot com named after the

797
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: film Black Girl's Play. I'm trying to build a community,

798
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: trying to launch this baby book out into the world

799
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: with community. There are so many resources. You can find

800
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: Black Girl's Play, a story of handgames on Disney Plus,

801
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 2: and there's also a portal on YouTube where you can

802
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: probably buy for two dollars and ninety nine cents or

803
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 2: something from ESPN and I have a lot of content

804
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: on YouTube and search for. I'm a singer as well.

805
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: I'm a jazz vocalist, so you can find some of

806
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: my singing. And I have an album you can find

807
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: on iTunes called be the True Revolution, quoted after the

808
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: newly ancestored dearly departed Nikki Giovanni from one of her

809
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: poems called when I Die, I hope that life knows

810
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 2: that I know that touch is the true Revolution.

811
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 3: So be the true revolution. It's the name of the

812
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 3: album beautiful.

813
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: We will be short to include all of those in

814
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: the show notes so that people can access them. Thank

815
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: you so much for sending some time with me today.

816
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

817
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Good joy, thank you.

818
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Gaunt was able to join me

819
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: for this conversation. I hope today's episode reminded you just

820
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: how powerful our play has always been, how those claps,

821
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: steps and songs weren't just games but blueprints for our brilliance, creativity,

822
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: and resistance. To learn more about doctor go, make sure

823
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot

824
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: com slash session four twenty, and don't forget to text

825
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: this episodes to two of your girls right now and

826
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode.

827
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 3: Did you know?

828
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: You can leave us a voicemail with your questions or

829
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: suggestions for the podcast. Do you have books or movies

830
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: you'd like us to review, or even have thoughts about

831
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: topics you'd like to hear us discuss. Drop us a

832
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: voice message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black

833
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: Girls and you just might hear it on the show.

834
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit

835
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.

836
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indytubu and Tyree Rush.

837
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

838
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

839
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,959
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

840
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: Take good care.

841
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 3: What's