WEBVTT - Antifascist Roundtable, Part 2 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.760 Cool Media. 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.520 Welcome back to It could happen here. This is Garrison Davis. 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.280 This episode is part two of a conversation that myself 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.759 and James Stout had with some of the contributors to 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.720 a book by AK Press titled No Passeran. It's an 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.880 anti fascist anthology that talks about the modern anti fascist 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:30.440 movement and some of the writer's own experiences with anti fascism. 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:33.839 So we'll pick up our conversation basically right where we 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:38.280 left off, talking about the modern state of anti fascism, 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.519 anti fascists and like, you know, the left quote unquote 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:43.680 in general right now is kind of in a weird place. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.080 You know, like a lot of people were you know, 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.879 extremely kind of catalyzed after Charlottesville, and that led to 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.040 a like massive resurgence of anti racist action, anti fascist action. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.720 And I think the quote unquote like antifa movement of 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.320 the twenty teens abs like was is probably one of 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:07.399 the largest like politically radicalizing forces for people, especially people 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.560 my age, people a little bit older. It's you know, 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.800 it's very influential in what the kind of the modern 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:16.200 like anarchists or you know left, you know scene is. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.880 And there's like there's a lot of positive parts of that. 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.920 There's also you know, there's some some drawbacks for that 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:25.760 as well. Kind of one one kind of recurring thing 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.080 is that like when your only tools a hammer, then 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.520 everything is a nail. And there's certain elements of of 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.640 like and and this like antifa notion, like people who 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.920 like grew up with with like anti fascists and being 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:44.240 their primary kind of mode of practice. Then it can 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:50.600 be very easily turned horizontally. But you know, it's after 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.360 after j six, after after Biinen's been inaugurated, we have 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.280 had this very weird lull, but there's still been you 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.640 know a lot of fascist mobilization. But this response to 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:02.880 it that you know was very normalized in twenty eighteen 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.000 has has definitely shifted. We we've seen, like you know, 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.440 the one thing that's been new is, like you like 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:11.680 you mentioned regarding you know, Charlotte Spell, there's lot of 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.800 like debate around if people should show up armed. We 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.160 now have like the Drag Time Story Hour kind of defenses, 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.720 like armed defenses with John Brown, gun clubs becoming more popular. 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:25.680 But you know, the one the kind of occurring things 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.919 that everyone's kind of been talking about it I've been hearing, 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.040 Like there's so many parallels for what we've been going 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.919 through the past like five ten years to other kind 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:36.520 of things in the past. Like while all of the 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.679 John Brown anti Clan Committee stuff, there's just a lot 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:43.640 of cyclical notions. I mean, even I'm here in Atlanta 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.000 right now, there's this Rico grand jury indictment. Everyone's thinking 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.040 about like green scare stuff. Even even John Brown Anti 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.720 Clan Committee did grand jury resistance back in like the eighties. 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.760 Like it's this this these things have happened before. And 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.000 I think one thing that you know, the quote unquote 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.880 after anti fascists sometimes they're kind of bad at is 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.040 actually passing down the history. There's this tendency that when 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.679 people get involved, we're kind of forced to reinvent the 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.880 wheel every time. But it's like completely like unnecessary, but 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.639 we tend to just keep trying the same things over 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.680 and over again. So there's even people younger than me 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:20.520 who weren't even old enough to get involved in anti 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.520 fascist stuff in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and they're 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.120 now kind of growing up. There's still this fascist mobilization. 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:29.360 You know, liberals are kind of passive because they have 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.560 their guy in the White House, and we're going to 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.919 be reaching a really interesting tipping point in twenty twenty four. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.360 So for these types of people who are like either 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.560 wanting to get involved or who are like just just 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:41.680 starting to realize that, hey, maybe we should actually do 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.400 something about all this stuff, especially as you know, trans 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.640 existence is one of the main things under attack right now. 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.400 What is kind of some like lessons from the passage 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.360 you would like to be passed down to people. 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.280 A couple of things that come to mind. I was 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.960 reminded because James is in San Diego about you know, 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:01.840 one of the things we haven't talked about at all 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.040 is the border, and that's been a recurrent theme of 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:08.040 the right and of the state, both in terms of 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:12.400 building you know, a repressive apparatus. So going back to 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.120 you know, the early days of People Against Racist Terror, 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.159 which is the group that I had in La after 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.520 John brand Ask and Anti Clan Committe left. One of 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:25.560 the first actions we did was there was something called 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.760 the American Spring at the Mexican Border, which was a 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.520 neo fascist element. It kind of grew out of the 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.760 previous Clan Border Watch that David Duka done, and they 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.400 were trying to you know, build up a base of 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.799 support for you know, very you know, close the borders. 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.960 And so we did bring people from la and joined 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.240 up with San Diego. And actually at one of those 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.560 rallies somebody drove a car at and nearly hit someone 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.200 from the the the you know, the anti fascist forces. 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.919 So I think that's an important piece of we should 0:04:59.920 --> 0:05:02.680 be thinking about the other thing in terms of killings 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.359 and shootings. You know, somebody from the Red Nation was 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:10.120 just shot in Albuquerque, and you know, I think that again, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.080 the question of indigenous sovereignty and indigenous rights is a 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.679 leading edge of struggle. A lot of the struggles around 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.359 missing and murdered Indigenous women have to do with the 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.200 you know, fossil fuel industry and in the back in 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.400 other places where you know, women have disappeared and been 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:31.040 killed by you know, people in the fossil fuel industry basically, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.159 And I think bringing all that to bear is really 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:39.080 critical to have the breadth of consciousness and the understanding 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.080 that there is a global struggle that's going on and 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.560 Indigenous people in particular are part of that, about the 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.440 survival of humanity and of the planet in a sense, 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.560 and to situate anti fascist struggle in that context, I 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.479 think is really really important and relates to who are 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.360 our allies, who are leadership, where is the struggle being 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.880 led by and so you know, one of the things 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.560 we uncovered here is that the people involved in the 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.039 militia movement started their operations by supporting Christian militias in 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.760 Guatemala and the Philippines, attacking left forces in those countries 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:15.679 and indigenous forces in those countries. And you know, having 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:17.800 that global perspective, I think that's one of the really 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.120 great strengths of the book, by the way, that I 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.599 thought was really amazing, as the coverage of anti fascist 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.400 movements all around the world, and you know, the anti 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:30.559 fascists in India and so on, and having that sense 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.880 that it's not just you know, people of European descent 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.000 or you know, African Americans in the United States who 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.760 are post to fascism, but there's a very very broad, 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.480 you know, movement around the world and inside this country 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.680 of people who are experiencing fascism literally all the time 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.280 that you know, gives a strength to anti fascism. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:57.000 There is an exceptionalism that exists even in the left 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.440 and American exceptionalism that exists even in the American life 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:05.120 when it comes to how bad things are, how good 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.320 we are at organizing or whatever. And I think that 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:09.800 a lot of the time is one of the things 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:14.200 that we often forget is that we are not the 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:19.320 only people going through this, both in time and space. 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.600 Right there's movements that are going on elsewhere that are 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.480 facing a much deeper sort of repression than what we 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.000 see in the United States, and they are still finding 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.400 ways to organize. I like to do you know when 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.080 we talk about like the attack on queer rights, and 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:39.160 you know, things like all of these hateful laws that 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.080 are being passed which will almost certainly be thrown out 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.200 in the courts, and that's you know, it's going to 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.760 be a couple of years. But you know people are saying, well, 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.240 this is going to make pride illegal, and this is 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.520 you know, this is the worst thing. This is like, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.480 you know, a step towards genocide and all of that stuff. 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.440 And I think it's actually important for us to put 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:04.560 things in perspective. Istanbul has a much stricter set of 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:08.800 restrictions on we are organizing quirkeet demonstrations. Pride happens every 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.600 year Pride is attacked by cops every year, they still 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:16.200 continue to persist. What can we learn as Americans from 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.640 that movement. I think that's a really important thing for 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:24.760 the American anti fascist scene to really start to to 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.320 think around and try to take this moment. As you mentioned, 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.000 there's a lull that is happening now, both in the 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.160 organizing and in the popular support. We need to take 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.120 that moment to reflect on what is working, what is not, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.920 to regroup and to find new approaches, new tactics. This 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:44.920 is something that I write about in the chapter I 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:49.680 wrote on TRANSI anti Fascism. Right, we need to, like 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:54.080 we need to absolutely bring in historical contexts and comparative 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.959 analysis into our into what we're doing, But that does 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.040 not mean that we need to say that everything is 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:04.080 literally the Holocaust. What we need to do is look 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:06.440 at what are the factors, what are the causes, what 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.720 are the root causes of the things that are happening, 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.840 and how can we strategically organize to disrupt and to 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:18.520 bypass those forces. So I think it's really important to 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:20.959 have that multifaceted perspective. 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.200 I think that Emily is touched on something that is 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.640 really important when we say that the police are being 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:34.880 are attacking pride events, pride marches and such, that suggests 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:42.440 that somebody initiated something on our side. That speaks to 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.040 what it is we have to do. We have to 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:50.040 initiate certain actions. We cannot keep waiting for the fascists. 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.560 We can't keep waiting, we can't keep being reactive. We 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.440 do have to go on the offense. I mean, that's 0:09:56.440 --> 0:10:01.560 one of the reasons why myself, me and others have 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:06.040 been so successful. It is because we don't wait for 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.760 the fascists to do something. We do something to them 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:14.240 before they make a move, and we know when to 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.200 do it because they basically send us signals out courtesy 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.760 of their free speech, that they want to do something, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.920 and we just take those cues and say, Okay, here's 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.880 how we are going to go forward. We're going to 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.679 let people know about you, We're going to let people 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.000 know how to keep you at bay. I mean, that's 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.760 the kinds of things that we need to do. We 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.599 need to just basically say we are establishing this institution, 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:45.240 we are establishing the security around that institution, and you 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:48.760 are not going to be able to breach this institution. 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.080 The other thing that we do need to do in 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.720 that while we build that is also make it clear 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.160 to some of those that, for lack of a better term, 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.920 or wishy washy on the subject, are more mainstreamers and 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:07.160 liberals and such who are quick to defend the fashions 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.280 that they say they don't believe in before they defend us. 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.000 We gotta start telling them to chill, and you gotta 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.440 start telling them to pick a side and stop getting 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:21.080 in everybody's way. Stop being a bulwark because you're too 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.600 cowardly to put up this fight or you're too interested 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:30.560 in protecting your other interests as opposed to being concerned 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.400 about what's coming down the pike. The book starts off 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.679 with a discussion about a three way fight. We definitely 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.280 are in one. Do you want to explain what a 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.120 three way fight is? Well, three way fight is not 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.200 only you're dealing with you know, the obvious enemy, so 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:51.840 to speak, but you're also dealing with those that are 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.200 hesitant to do something about that enemy to the point 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.640 that they will fight you more, to the point that 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:03.600 they will fight you more. And frankly, it's frustrating. It 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:06.160 is a frustrating thing, but it is there and it 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.480 has been there through our history, and I mean even 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.200 the mo I mean, I'm surprised I'm actually referencing a 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.760 Mel Gibson movie, but even the movie Brave Heart brought 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:21.600 that up. Now, I don't think that we need to 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.640 smack people upside their head with a mace, but by 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.120 the same token, we do have to let people know 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.400 that we do have to be a little bit more 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.560 I should say, assertive in our efforts as we go 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:39.160 forward and basically try to rout this particular fascist element, 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.520 and an assertive means blowing past those that are supposed 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.240 to be on our side. I mean, because I was 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.760 thinking about the fact that this is now the twelfth 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:56.280 anniversary of Occupy Right, and Occupy was trying to do that. 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.640 Occupy is still trying to do that, and respects the 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.440 folks that were in Occupy, but some of the folks, 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:09.120 because what you also saw at Occupy were a lot 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:10.960 of folks who thought that they would be able to 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:16.280 take advantage of the progress that we were making in 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.959 this effort and turned it into a more fascist thing. 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:21.360 I mean, I was just looking at a lot of 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:25.520 the characters that come out of Occupy that went to 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.080 the fascist side, and when you look at who they are, 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.320 you realize that you had a whole bunch of opportunities 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.880 that were within our ranks that were looking for something 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.520 totally different than what the rest of us. We were 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.160 looking out for each other and Occupy The true people 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.559 that were dealing with Occupy Wall Street were looking out 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.680 for each other in our communities. These guys just thought, Hey, 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.880 perfect opportunity to just say that we're one with them 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:54.000 and drag them over here to the right. That's strasserism, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.240 that straight up stratsifism. But when you look at it 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.640 even further, it's just a bunch of people that only 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.680 cared about themselves ultimately. And we've seen it after year 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.280 after year in this fight. So I think that it's 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.679 going to be very important to build and protect our 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:15.480 institutions and recognize what it is we are protecting them from. 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.880 And it's not hard. We have shown over and over 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.920 and over again that we are prepared to weigh that 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.640 kind of war. We just have to basically recognize it 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.040 within ourselves when we have to do it, and that's 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.440 just and do not wait for people to die. I mean, 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.480 Heather Hire did not have to die. No one in 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.360 January sixth. Regardless of how I feel about any of 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:44.040 them had to die. That should not be the thing 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.760 that we should respond to. We already know what to do, 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:48.960 we just need to do it. 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.360 Yeah, I think it picked up on a lot of 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.600 what everyone said, especially Michael. I think part of what 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.560 gets out here is having a place for like broad 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.320 social movements where they're able to interact with one another 0:15:02.400 --> 0:15:05.480 and support one another. So anti fascist movements as a 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.360 defensive movement have often been essential to actually operating other 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.840 kinds of organizing, you know. So like when I was 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.080 working with Houselest encampments and we were doing food not 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:17.520 bombs and stuff. You get attacked by far right groups, 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.400 you had to have a defense development. There was no 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:20.200 other choice. 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:20.680 Same thing. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.600 I've been at union offices that were attacked by the 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.840 far right. You have to have that defens development. And 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.280 then on the same token, we're talking about mass actions 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.920 against far right demonstrations. It requires people that are coming 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.520 probably from all kinds of political backgrounds, but they've gotten 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.120 involved from different kinds of practices. We're having mutual aid 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.120 networks that support people getting there, sustaining themselves there, medical care, 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:46.960 all kinds of component pieces. So those things require that 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.480 kind of back and forth, and I think that also 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:53.080 begs to how do you get people in We're talking 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.240 about a lot of problems with people on like the 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:58.200 moderate left, not kind of taking those next steps, those 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.920 defensive steps that are necessary, but also how do we 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.320 find a pathway for them in. You know, if we're 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.080 talking about mass participation in something, if we're talking about 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.600 like a revolutionary movement with huge masses of people, we 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:11.800 have to figure out what those pathways for people are 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.120 and giving them access to them. And I think also 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.400 moving past what we've thought of as the far right before. 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.160 I mean people have talked about this a little bit. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:23.600 You know, a lot of what we think of as 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.400 recently anti fascism was built around finding the alt right 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.800 and other kind of recent short term projects, and what 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.040 we have now is just radically different, just like it 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.360 will be in a few years. And so having a 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.720 deep kind of intersexual understanding of how that works, because 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:39.840 when you do that, you have that kind of natural 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.400 understanding of where that's going to show up again, how 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.080 it might interact with different communities, and what rule places 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:47.040 for you. How are you able to interact with it 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.160 as this person coming into a social movement. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.280 Yeah, I mean, especially considering something I've been kind of 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.520 watching and we're seeing a little bit of it with this, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.680 with this set of Republican primaries, is that we have 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:01.160 an incoming new wave of kind of gen z and 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.880 millennial Republicans who grew up in the alt right era 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.320 who are now bringing that sort of like alt right 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:12.120 street politics to electoralism, and how that's going to be opposed. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.160 It's going to be you know, I was just talking 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.080 about before how we shouldn't just try to like retread 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.159 the same ground over and over again without learning the 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:21.040 histories from the past. But like this, for a lot 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.760 of people who have just been doing like street politics 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.560 the past few years, figuring out how they're going to 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.159 oppose like fascism in this much more like electoral setting, 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.760 it's gonna be an interesting shift because, yeah, you can 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.800 like punch Richard Spencer and no one really cares too much, 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:38.840 But if you punch someone like, you know, DeSantis, that 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.800 is going to be a different thing to kind of 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.159 sort through it. And so yeah, I think that is 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.400 kind of one of these shifts that you know, maybe 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:51.240 maybe coming up here soon and whatever kind of evolves 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:53.600 on the anti fascist side to kind of meet that 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.640 it is going to be interesting to watch and take 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:56.000 part in. 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.359 Yeah, I think that, you know, the part of the 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.800 ar analysis has always been that fascism is built from 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.919 above and below. And I think we really have to 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.480 understand that that the fascism is Fascism is not only 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.399 the factor of the street politics and the people who 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.720 declare themselves to be fascist, but that there are fascist 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:26.080 elements in the structure of this society, and there are 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.000 fascist elements in power in this government right now. And 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.520 you know, the fascism has come to power in quite 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:36.240 a number of you know, in Italy, neo fascists as 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.440 the Prime Minister, and you know in the United States 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.119 Matt Gates, and that element has a clear you know, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.760 they're in power within the Republican Party, they control the 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.720 House representatives in a way, and I think that that's 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:57.200 a critical understanding. But also it speaks to the fact 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.879 that fascist practices and elements exists in a lot of 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.160 different places. And I think one of the things I've 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.480 always tried to put out to people is that this 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.080 is an aspect of the nature of imperialism, central colonialism 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.400 and I want to emphasize that because I think there's 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:17.160 a fractal character to what we're dealing with or holographic, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.480 you know, there's any element of this society that you 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.520 attempt to deal with, you're actually facing the entirety of 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.000 imperialism and fascism. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:26.560 There. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:28.359 So, if you look at the labor movement right now, 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:31.600 labor is a big resurgence, particularly here in southern California. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.960 There have just been you know, the hotel workers and 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.439 restaurant works on strike, the screen actors on strike, the 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:40.600 writers go on strike, and the fact that there you know, 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:46.119 there is a fascist element to the employment structure and 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.320 trying to organize it. If you look what happened to 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.040 the Amazon union, or just the fact that again going 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.960 back in history, you know, the Taft Hartley Act was 0:19:56.040 --> 0:20:01.359 written to criminalize you know, communists and and also solidarity 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.960 with the labor movement outlaw. You know, solidarity strikes, and 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:08.760 that's fascist, that is you have to understand that. And 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.120 you know, one of the reasons that the Puerto Rican 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.920 in Dependence movement attack Congress was that the US attempted 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.159 to put the Taft Tartly Act into practice against the 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.000 labor movem in Puerto Rico, and the Nationalist Party said no, 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.600 we're going to counterattack. So I think that that's a 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.280 really critical understanding. We started out talking about the prisons, 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.119 and you know, there's nothing more fascists that's in prison. 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:34.840 And one of the things they do in prison is 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:38.480 they use privilege to try to divide the prisoners. You know, 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:40.960 and we haven't talked much about privilege and how it 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.400 operates in the society, but you know, it's a key 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:48.359 factor in how people are are organized by the system 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:55.399 to collaborate to you know, get along by going along 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.520 and so. But even inside the prisons we've seen here 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:04.080 in California and elsewhere, and you know, the Alabama, Georgia elsewhere, 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:08.320 prisoners are able to organize under conditions of fascism that 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.720 exist in the prisons. They have ways to communicate with 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.760 each other, they've built into racial solidarity in many cases. 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.280 So I think those are examples of anti fascism that 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.199 we need to embrace and understand the same way that 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:24.480 people organ you know, if you're organizing a union, you're 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.480 operating on a certain level clandestinely, because if you're open 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.280 about it, you're going to get fired. And they're going 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.439 to retaliate and they're going to anybody you talk to 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:35.480 is going to get fired. So we need to have 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.840 an understanding of ways to organize that are not always 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.399 I'm not talking about arms struggle, and I'm saying that 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.320 people have to organize below the radar when you're dealing 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:47.160 with fascism, especially when it's in power, and fascism isn't 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:49.040 in power, and a lot of sectors of the society 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:51.840 right now and people are dealing with it, as Emily 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:56.840 said about you know, Istanbul and Pride marches, you know, 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:00.680 so you know, I think we need to make those 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.359 connections into the labor movement, into the prison movement, into 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.800 the you know, formally incarcerated people's movement, you know, the 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.040 solidarity with indigenous struggles that are going on against that's 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.199 just the colonization of their lands and struggles. And I 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:17.159 think that if we understand that that's an aspect of 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:21.679 anti fascism, I think it actually strengthens what we're engaged in. 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.159 Definitely. I think it's also important just to, like, I guess, 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:29.119 if people are thinking about their organizing, and it's always 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.600 important to hear from those struggles as well. As you know, 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:33.960