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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to It could happen here. This is Garrison Davis.

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Speaker 2: This episode is part two of a conversation that myself

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Speaker 2: and James Stout had with some of the contributors to

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Speaker 2: a book by AK Press titled No Passeran. It's an

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Speaker 2: anti fascist anthology that talks about the modern anti fascist

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Speaker 2: movement and some of the writer's own experiences with anti fascism.

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Speaker 2: So we'll pick up our conversation basically right where we

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Speaker 2: left off, talking about the modern state of anti fascism,

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Speaker 2: anti fascists and like, you know, the left quote unquote

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Speaker 2: in general right now is kind of in a weird place.

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Speaker 2: You know, like a lot of people were you know,

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Speaker 2: extremely kind of catalyzed after Charlottesville, and that led to

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Speaker 2: a like massive resurgence of anti racist action, anti fascist action.

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Speaker 2: And I think the quote unquote like antifa movement of

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Speaker 2: the twenty teens abs like was is probably one of

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Speaker 2: the largest like politically radicalizing forces for people, especially people

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Speaker 2: my age, people a little bit older. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's very influential in what the kind of the modern

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Speaker 2: like anarchists or you know left, you know scene is.

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Speaker 2: And there's like there's a lot of positive parts of that.

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Speaker 2: There's also you know, there's some some drawbacks for that

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Speaker 2: as well. Kind of one one kind of recurring thing

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Speaker 2: is that like when your only tools a hammer, then

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Speaker 2: everything is a nail. And there's certain elements of of

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Speaker 2: like and and this like antifa notion, like people who

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Speaker 2: like grew up with with like anti fascists and being

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Speaker 2: their primary kind of mode of practice. Then it can

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Speaker 2: be very easily turned horizontally. But you know, it's after

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Speaker 2: after j six, after after Biinen's been inaugurated, we have

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Speaker 2: had this very weird lull, but there's still been you

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Speaker 2: know a lot of fascist mobilization. But this response to

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Speaker 2: it that you know was very normalized in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: has has definitely shifted. We we've seen, like you know,

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Speaker 2: the one thing that's been new is, like you like

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Speaker 2: you mentioned regarding you know, Charlotte Spell, there's lot of

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Speaker 2: like debate around if people should show up armed. We

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Speaker 2: now have like the Drag Time Story Hour kind of defenses,

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Speaker 2: like armed defenses with John Brown, gun clubs becoming more popular.

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Speaker 2: But you know, the one the kind of occurring things

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Speaker 2: that everyone's kind of been talking about it I've been hearing,

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Speaker 2: Like there's so many parallels for what we've been going

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Speaker 2: through the past like five ten years to other kind

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Speaker 2: of things in the past. Like while all of the

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Speaker 2: John Brown anti Clan Committee stuff, there's just a lot

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Speaker 2: of cyclical notions. I mean, even I'm here in Atlanta

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Speaker 2: right now, there's this Rico grand jury indictment. Everyone's thinking

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Speaker 2: about like green scare stuff. Even even John Brown Anti

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Speaker 2: Clan Committee did grand jury resistance back in like the eighties.

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Speaker 2: Like it's this this these things have happened before. And

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Speaker 2: I think one thing that you know, the quote unquote

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Speaker 2: after anti fascists sometimes they're kind of bad at is

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Speaker 2: actually passing down the history. There's this tendency that when

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Speaker 2: people get involved, we're kind of forced to reinvent the

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Speaker 2: wheel every time. But it's like completely like unnecessary, but

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Speaker 2: we tend to just keep trying the same things over

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Speaker 2: and over again. So there's even people younger than me

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Speaker 2: who weren't even old enough to get involved in anti

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Speaker 2: fascist stuff in like twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and they're

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Speaker 2: now kind of growing up. There's still this fascist mobilization.

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Speaker 2: You know, liberals are kind of passive because they have

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Speaker 2: their guy in the White House, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: be reaching a really interesting tipping point in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: So for these types of people who are like either

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Speaker 2: wanting to get involved or who are like just just

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Speaker 2: starting to realize that, hey, maybe we should actually do

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Speaker 2: something about all this stuff, especially as you know, trans

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Speaker 2: existence is one of the main things under attack right now.

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Speaker 2: What is kind of some like lessons from the passage

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Speaker 2: you would like to be passed down to people.

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Speaker 3: A couple of things that come to mind. I was

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Speaker 3: reminded because James is in San Diego about you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the things we haven't talked about at all

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Speaker 3: is the border, and that's been a recurrent theme of

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Speaker 3: the right and of the state, both in terms of

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Speaker 3: building you know, a repressive apparatus. So going back to

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Speaker 3: you know, the early days of People Against Racist Terror,

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Speaker 3: which is the group that I had in La after

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Speaker 3: John brand Ask and Anti Clan Committe left. One of

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Speaker 3: the first actions we did was there was something called

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Speaker 3: the American Spring at the Mexican Border, which was a

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Speaker 3: neo fascist element. It kind of grew out of the

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Speaker 3: previous Clan Border Watch that David Duka done, and they

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Speaker 3: were trying to you know, build up a base of

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Speaker 3: support for you know, very you know, close the borders.

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Speaker 3: And so we did bring people from la and joined

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Speaker 3: up with San Diego. And actually at one of those

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Speaker 3: rallies somebody drove a car at and nearly hit someone

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Speaker 3: from the the the you know, the anti fascist forces.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's an important piece of we should

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Speaker 3: be thinking about the other thing in terms of killings

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Speaker 3: and shootings. You know, somebody from the Red Nation was

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Speaker 3: just shot in Albuquerque, and you know, I think that again,

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Speaker 3: the question of indigenous sovereignty and indigenous rights is a

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Speaker 3: leading edge of struggle. A lot of the struggles around

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Speaker 3: missing and murdered Indigenous women have to do with the

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Speaker 3: you know, fossil fuel industry and in the back in

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Speaker 3: other places where you know, women have disappeared and been

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Speaker 3: killed by you know, people in the fossil fuel industry basically,

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Speaker 3: And I think bringing all that to bear is really

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Speaker 3: critical to have the breadth of consciousness and the understanding

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Speaker 3: that there is a global struggle that's going on and

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Speaker 3: Indigenous people in particular are part of that, about the

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Speaker 3: survival of humanity and of the planet in a sense,

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Speaker 3: and to situate anti fascist struggle in that context, I

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Speaker 3: think is really really important and relates to who are

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Speaker 3: our allies, who are leadership, where is the struggle being

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Speaker 3: led by and so you know, one of the things

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Speaker 3: we uncovered here is that the people involved in the

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Speaker 3: militia movement started their operations by supporting Christian militias in

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Speaker 3: Guatemala and the Philippines, attacking left forces in those countries

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Speaker 3: and indigenous forces in those countries. And you know, having

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Speaker 3: that global perspective, I think that's one of the really

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Speaker 3: great strengths of the book, by the way, that I

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Speaker 3: thought was really amazing, as the coverage of anti fascist

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Speaker 3: movements all around the world, and you know, the anti

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Speaker 3: fascists in India and so on, and having that sense

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Speaker 3: that it's not just you know, people of European descent

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Speaker 3: or you know, African Americans in the United States who

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Speaker 3: are post to fascism, but there's a very very broad,

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Speaker 3: you know, movement around the world and inside this country

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Speaker 3: of people who are experiencing fascism literally all the time

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Speaker 3: that you know, gives a strength to anti fascism.

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Speaker 4: There is an exceptionalism that exists even in the left

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Speaker 4: and American exceptionalism that exists even in the American life

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Speaker 4: when it comes to how bad things are, how good

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Speaker 4: we are at organizing or whatever. And I think that

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Speaker 4: a lot of the time is one of the things

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Speaker 4: that we often forget is that we are not the

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Speaker 4: only people going through this, both in time and space.

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Speaker 4: Right there's movements that are going on elsewhere that are

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Speaker 4: facing a much deeper sort of repression than what we

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Speaker 4: see in the United States, and they are still finding

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Speaker 4: ways to organize. I like to do you know when

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Speaker 4: we talk about like the attack on queer rights, and

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Speaker 4: you know, things like all of these hateful laws that

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Speaker 4: are being passed which will almost certainly be thrown out

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Speaker 4: in the courts, and that's you know, it's going to

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Speaker 4: be a couple of years. But you know people are saying, well,

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Speaker 4: this is going to make pride illegal, and this is

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Speaker 4: you know, this is the worst thing. This is like,

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Speaker 4: you know, a step towards genocide and all of that stuff.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's actually important for us to put

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Speaker 4: things in perspective. Istanbul has a much stricter set of

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Speaker 4: restrictions on we are organizing quirkeet demonstrations. Pride happens every

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Speaker 4: year Pride is attacked by cops every year, they still

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Speaker 4: continue to persist. What can we learn as Americans from

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Speaker 4: that movement. I think that's a really important thing for

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Speaker 4: the American anti fascist scene to really start to to

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Speaker 4: think around and try to take this moment. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 4: there's a lull that is happening now, both in the

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Speaker 4: organizing and in the popular support. We need to take

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Speaker 4: that moment to reflect on what is working, what is not,

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Speaker 4: to regroup and to find new approaches, new tactics. This

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Speaker 4: is something that I write about in the chapter I

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Speaker 4: wrote on TRANSI anti Fascism. Right, we need to, like

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Speaker 4: we need to absolutely bring in historical contexts and comparative

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Speaker 4: analysis into our into what we're doing, But that does

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Speaker 4: not mean that we need to say that everything is

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Speaker 4: literally the Holocaust. What we need to do is look

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Speaker 4: at what are the factors, what are the causes, what

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Speaker 4: are the root causes of the things that are happening,

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Speaker 4: and how can we strategically organize to disrupt and to

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Speaker 4: bypass those forces. So I think it's really important to

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Speaker 4: have that multifaceted perspective.

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Speaker 5: I think that Emily is touched on something that is

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Speaker 5: really important when we say that the police are being

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Speaker 5: are attacking pride events, pride marches and such, that suggests

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Speaker 5: that somebody initiated something on our side. That speaks to

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Speaker 5: what it is we have to do. We have to

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Speaker 5: initiate certain actions. We cannot keep waiting for the fascists.

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Speaker 5: We can't keep waiting, we can't keep being reactive. We

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Speaker 5: do have to go on the offense. I mean, that's

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Speaker 5: one of the reasons why myself, me and others have

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Speaker 5: been so successful. It is because we don't wait for

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Speaker 5: the fascists to do something. We do something to them

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Speaker 5: before they make a move, and we know when to

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Speaker 5: do it because they basically send us signals out courtesy

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Speaker 5: of their free speech, that they want to do something,

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Speaker 5: and we just take those cues and say, Okay, here's

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Speaker 5: how we are going to go forward. We're going to

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Speaker 5: let people know about you, We're going to let people

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Speaker 5: know how to keep you at bay. I mean, that's

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Speaker 5: the kinds of things that we need to do. We

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Speaker 5: need to just basically say we are establishing this institution,

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Speaker 5: we are establishing the security around that institution, and you

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Speaker 5: are not going to be able to breach this institution.

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Speaker 5: The other thing that we do need to do in

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Speaker 5: that while we build that is also make it clear

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Speaker 5: to some of those that, for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 5: or wishy washy on the subject, are more mainstreamers and

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Speaker 5: liberals and such who are quick to defend the fashions

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Speaker 5: that they say they don't believe in before they defend us.

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Speaker 5: We gotta start telling them to chill, and you gotta

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Speaker 5: start telling them to pick a side and stop getting

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Speaker 5: in everybody's way. Stop being a bulwark because you're too

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Speaker 5: cowardly to put up this fight or you're too interested

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Speaker 5: in protecting your other interests as opposed to being concerned

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Speaker 5: about what's coming down the pike. The book starts off

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Speaker 5: with a discussion about a three way fight. We definitely

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Speaker 5: are in one. Do you want to explain what a

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Speaker 5: three way fight is? Well, three way fight is not

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Speaker 5: only you're dealing with you know, the obvious enemy, so

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Speaker 5: to speak, but you're also dealing with those that are

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Speaker 5: hesitant to do something about that enemy to the point

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Speaker 5: that they will fight you more, to the point that

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Speaker 5: they will fight you more. And frankly, it's frustrating. It

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Speaker 5: is a frustrating thing, but it is there and it

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Speaker 5: has been there through our history, and I mean even

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Speaker 5: the mo I mean, I'm surprised I'm actually referencing a

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Speaker 5: Mel Gibson movie, but even the movie Brave Heart brought

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Speaker 5: that up. Now, I don't think that we need to

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Speaker 5: smack people upside their head with a mace, but by

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Speaker 5: the same token, we do have to let people know

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Speaker 5: that we do have to be a little bit more

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Speaker 5: I should say, assertive in our efforts as we go

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Speaker 5: forward and basically try to rout this particular fascist element,

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Speaker 5: and an assertive means blowing past those that are supposed

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Speaker 5: to be on our side. I mean, because I was

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Speaker 5: thinking about the fact that this is now the twelfth

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Speaker 5: anniversary of Occupy Right, and Occupy was trying to do that.

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Speaker 5: Occupy is still trying to do that, and respects the

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Speaker 5: folks that were in Occupy, but some of the folks,

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Speaker 5: because what you also saw at Occupy were a lot

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Speaker 5: of folks who thought that they would be able to

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Speaker 5: take advantage of the progress that we were making in

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Speaker 5: this effort and turned it into a more fascist thing.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I was just looking at a lot of

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Speaker 5: the characters that come out of Occupy that went to

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Speaker 5: the fascist side, and when you look at who they are,

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Speaker 5: you realize that you had a whole bunch of opportunities

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Speaker 5: that were within our ranks that were looking for something

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Speaker 5: totally different than what the rest of us. We were

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Speaker 5: looking out for each other and Occupy The true people

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Speaker 5: that were dealing with Occupy Wall Street were looking out

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Speaker 5: for each other in our communities. These guys just thought, Hey,

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Speaker 5: perfect opportunity to just say that we're one with them

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Speaker 5: and drag them over here to the right. That's strasserism,

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Speaker 5: that straight up stratsifism. But when you look at it

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Speaker 5: even further, it's just a bunch of people that only

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Speaker 5: cared about themselves ultimately. And we've seen it after year

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Speaker 5: after year in this fight. So I think that it's

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Speaker 5: going to be very important to build and protect our

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Speaker 5: institutions and recognize what it is we are protecting them from.

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Speaker 5: And it's not hard. We have shown over and over

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Speaker 5: and over again that we are prepared to weigh that

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Speaker 5: kind of war. We just have to basically recognize it

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Speaker 5: within ourselves when we have to do it, and that's

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Speaker 5: just and do not wait for people to die. I mean,

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Speaker 5: Heather Hire did not have to die. No one in

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Speaker 5: January sixth. Regardless of how I feel about any of

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Speaker 5: them had to die. That should not be the thing

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Speaker 5: that we should respond to. We already know what to do,

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Speaker 5: we just need to do it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it picked up on a lot of

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Speaker 6: what everyone said, especially Michael. I think part of what

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Speaker 6: gets out here is having a place for like broad

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Speaker 6: social movements where they're able to interact with one another

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Speaker 6: and support one another. So anti fascist movements as a

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Speaker 6: defensive movement have often been essential to actually operating other

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Speaker 6: kinds of organizing, you know. So like when I was

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Speaker 6: working with Houselest encampments and we were doing food not

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Speaker 6: bombs and stuff. You get attacked by far right groups,

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Speaker 6: you had to have a defense development. There was no

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Speaker 6: other choice.

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Speaker 5: Same thing.

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Speaker 6: I've been at union offices that were attacked by the

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Speaker 6: far right. You have to have that defens development. And

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Speaker 6: then on the same token, we're talking about mass actions

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Speaker 6: against far right demonstrations. It requires people that are coming

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Speaker 6: probably from all kinds of political backgrounds, but they've gotten

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Speaker 6: involved from different kinds of practices. We're having mutual aid

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Speaker 6: networks that support people getting there, sustaining themselves there, medical care,

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Speaker 6: all kinds of component pieces. So those things require that

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Speaker 6: kind of back and forth, and I think that also

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Speaker 6: begs to how do you get people in We're talking

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Speaker 6: about a lot of problems with people on like the

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Speaker 6: moderate left, not kind of taking those next steps, those

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Speaker 6: defensive steps that are necessary, but also how do we

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Speaker 6: find a pathway for them in. You know, if we're

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Speaker 6: talking about mass participation in something, if we're talking about

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Speaker 6: like a revolutionary movement with huge masses of people, we

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Speaker 6: have to figure out what those pathways for people are

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Speaker 6: and giving them access to them. And I think also

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Speaker 6: moving past what we've thought of as the far right before.

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Speaker 6: I mean people have talked about this a little bit.

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Speaker 6: You know, a lot of what we think of as

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Speaker 6: recently anti fascism was built around finding the alt right

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Speaker 6: and other kind of recent short term projects, and what

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Speaker 6: we have now is just radically different, just like it

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Speaker 6: will be in a few years. And so having a

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Speaker 6: deep kind of intersexual understanding of how that works, because

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Speaker 6: when you do that, you have that kind of natural

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Speaker 6: understanding of where that's going to show up again, how

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Speaker 6: it might interact with different communities, and what rule places

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Speaker 6: for you. How are you able to interact with it

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Speaker 6: as this person coming into a social movement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, especially considering something I've been kind of

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Speaker 2: watching and we're seeing a little bit of it with this,

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Speaker 2: with this set of Republican primaries, is that we have

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Speaker 2: an incoming new wave of kind of gen z and

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Speaker 2: millennial Republicans who grew up in the alt right era

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Speaker 2: who are now bringing that sort of like alt right

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Speaker 2: street politics to electoralism, and how that's going to be opposed.

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Speaker 2: It's going to be you know, I was just talking

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Speaker 2: about before how we shouldn't just try to like retread

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Speaker 2: the same ground over and over again without learning the

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Speaker 2: histories from the past. But like this, for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who have just been doing like street politics

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Speaker 2: the past few years, figuring out how they're going to

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Speaker 2: oppose like fascism in this much more like electoral setting,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna be an interesting shift because, yeah, you can

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Speaker 2: like punch Richard Spencer and no one really cares too much,

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Speaker 2: But if you punch someone like, you know, DeSantis, that

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Speaker 2: is going to be a different thing to kind of

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Speaker 2: sort through it. And so yeah, I think that is

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Speaker 2: kind of one of these shifts that you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: maybe coming up here soon and whatever kind of evolves

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Speaker 2: on the anti fascist side to kind of meet that

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Speaker 2: it is going to be interesting to watch and take

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Speaker 2: part in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that, you know, the part of the

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Speaker 3: ar analysis has always been that fascism is built from

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Speaker 3: above and below. And I think we really have to

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Speaker 3: understand that that the fascism is Fascism is not only

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Speaker 3: the factor of the street politics and the people who

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Speaker 3: declare themselves to be fascist, but that there are fascist

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Speaker 3: elements in the structure of this society, and there are

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Speaker 3: fascist elements in power in this government right now. And

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Speaker 3: you know, the fascism has come to power in quite

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Speaker 3: a number of you know, in Italy, neo fascists as

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Speaker 3: the Prime Minister, and you know in the United States

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Speaker 3: Matt Gates, and that element has a clear you know,

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Speaker 3: they're in power within the Republican Party, they control the

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Speaker 3: House representatives in a way, and I think that that's

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Speaker 3: a critical understanding. But also it speaks to the fact

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Speaker 3: that fascist practices and elements exists in a lot of

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Speaker 3: different places. And I think one of the things I've

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Speaker 3: always tried to put out to people is that this

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Speaker 3: is an aspect of the nature of imperialism, central colonialism

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Speaker 3: and I want to emphasize that because I think there's

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Speaker 3: a fractal character to what we're dealing with or holographic,

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Speaker 3: you know, there's any element of this society that you

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Speaker 3: attempt to deal with, you're actually facing the entirety of

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Speaker 3: imperialism and fascism.

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Speaker 5: There.

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Speaker 3: So, if you look at the labor movement right now,

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Speaker 3: labor is a big resurgence, particularly here in southern California.

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Speaker 3: There have just been you know, the hotel workers and

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Speaker 3: restaurant works on strike, the screen actors on strike, the

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Speaker 3: writers go on strike, and the fact that there you know,

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Speaker 3: there is a fascist element to the employment structure and

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Speaker 3: trying to organize it. If you look what happened to

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Speaker 3: the Amazon union, or just the fact that again going

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Speaker 3: back in history, you know, the Taft Hartley Act was

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Speaker 3: written to criminalize you know, communists and and also solidarity

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Speaker 3: with the labor movement outlaw. You know, solidarity strikes, and

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Speaker 3: that's fascist, that is you have to understand that. And

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Speaker 3: you know, one of the reasons that the Puerto Rican

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Speaker 3: in Dependence movement attack Congress was that the US attempted

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Speaker 3: to put the Taft Tartly Act into practice against the

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Speaker 3: labor movem in Puerto Rico, and the Nationalist Party said no,

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Speaker 3: we're going to counterattack. So I think that that's a

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Speaker 3: really critical understanding. We started out talking about the prisons,

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Speaker 3: and you know, there's nothing more fascists that's in prison.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things they do in prison is

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Speaker 3: they use privilege to try to divide the prisoners. You know,

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Speaker 3: and we haven't talked much about privilege and how it

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Speaker 3: operates in the society, but you know, it's a key

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Speaker 3: factor in how people are are organized by the system

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Speaker 3: to collaborate to you know, get along by going along

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Speaker 3: and so. But even inside the prisons we've seen here

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Speaker 3: in California and elsewhere, and you know, the Alabama, Georgia elsewhere,

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Speaker 3: prisoners are able to organize under conditions of fascism that

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Speaker 3: exist in the prisons. They have ways to communicate with

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Speaker 3: each other, they've built into racial solidarity in many cases.

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Speaker 3: So I think those are examples of anti fascism that

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Speaker 3: we need to embrace and understand the same way that

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Speaker 3: people organ you know, if you're organizing a union, you're

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Speaker 3: operating on a certain level clandestinely, because if you're open

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Speaker 3: about it, you're going to get fired. And they're going

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Speaker 3: to retaliate and they're going to anybody you talk to

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Speaker 3: is going to get fired. So we need to have

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Speaker 3: an understanding of ways to organize that are not always

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Speaker 3: I'm not talking about arms struggle, and I'm saying that

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Speaker 3: people have to organize below the radar when you're dealing

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Speaker 3: with fascism, especially when it's in power, and fascism isn't

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Speaker 3: in power, and a lot of sectors of the society

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Speaker 3: right now and people are dealing with it, as Emily

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Speaker 3: said about you know, Istanbul and Pride marches, you know,

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Speaker 3: so you know, I think we need to make those

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Speaker 3: connections into the labor movement, into the prison movement, into

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Speaker 3: the you know, formally incarcerated people's movement, you know, the

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Speaker 3: solidarity with indigenous struggles that are going on against that's

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Speaker 3: just the colonization of their lands and struggles. And I

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Speaker 3: think that if we understand that that's an aspect of

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Speaker 3: anti fascism, I think it actually strengthens what we're engaged in.

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Speaker 1: Definitely. I think it's also important just to, like, I guess,

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Speaker 1: if people are thinking about their organizing, and it's always

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Speaker 1: important to hear from those struggles as well. As you know,

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Speaker 1: to to include them, but to really include them in

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Speaker 1: a sense of like listening and learning from rather than

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Speaker 1: sort of telling and saying this is like a Cish hat,

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Speaker 1: white guy. It's definitely a thing that I've perceived in

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Speaker 1: the movement in the last few years is a desire

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Speaker 1: to speak a little more and listen a little less.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I enjoyed about your book is that

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Speaker 1: when we talk about fascism, and we'd already mentioned Michael's

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Speaker 1: mentioned the border as a sort of a location for

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Speaker 1: fascist experiments within the United States, which I think it's

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Speaker 1: very hard to argue against living on the border. If

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Speaker 1: you protested in twenty twenty against police violence, you were

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Speaker 1: surveiled using technology that has been used for years where

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Speaker 1: I live, against migrants and citizens who live here. But

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Speaker 1: I really liked your perspective on looking at global fascisms,

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Speaker 1: because fascism is it's very easy to spend too much

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Speaker 1: time defining fascism, especially as anti fascists, right, Like, it's

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Speaker 1: extremely easy to be like, it's not fascism unless it

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Speaker 1: comes from the Fascia region of Italy, kind of like

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Speaker 1: this like cheese or champagne. Definition of fascism, but they've

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Speaker 1: focused on, for instance, fascism in India. Like, if I

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Speaker 1: go to the border, I was at the border a

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Speaker 1: couple of days ago, right that there are tons of

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Speaker 1: Punjabi Sikh people camped out in the desert right now

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Speaker 1: because border patroller are holding them in an open air

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Speaker 1: concentration camp, essentially because of what's happening in India that

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Speaker 1: they turn up here, right and as well as bringing

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Speaker 1: sort of migrant detention, resistance and migrant mutual aid and

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Speaker 1: to any fascism, I think it's important anti fascists also

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Speaker 1: like we can take concrete action to protect and like

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Speaker 1: to care for victim survivors of fascism. I guess people

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Speaker 1: who fled fascism, and like, when I think about what

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Speaker 1: my backgrounds in the study of the Spanish Civil War,

434
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: right that that's what my PhD is about. The thing

435
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: that radicalized young often Jewish men growing up in the

436
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: same part of New York that you did, was often

437
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: seeing people fleeing fascism coming to their communities and then

438
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: being like, we can't allow that not only to not

439
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: happen here, but the crucial step that like, we can't

440
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: allow that to happen anywhere, and that being what kind

441
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: of motivated them to travel to Spain, and many of

442
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: many of them died fighting in the Spanish Civil War, right,

443
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: But I think we could do better to do that

444
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: as well. Like now, I know not all of us

445
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: are living in the United States right now, but sometimes,

446
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: like Emily said, American anti fascism can be very exceptionalist

447
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: or whatever. But I think that we have so much

448
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 1: to learn from anti fascists. In my sort of formative experiences,

449
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: we're in Catalonia, in Spain, but also in India, also

450
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: in Russia, right, And I wonder if anyone could shall

451
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: like sort of I guess concrete ways that people listening

452
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: can help to expand that solidarity into an international anti fascism.

453
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 6: I think there's an interesting example, and it gets to

454
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 6: what Michael was stressing about fascism being kind of colonial

455
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 6: rule brought back to homeland. You know a lot of

456
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 6: the methods that were used against kind of mid century

457
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 6: anti fascist organizers, for example, the Anti Nazi League or

458
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 6: later anti fascist.

459
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 5: Action in the UK.

460
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 6: We're basically test run against Irish Republicans in Northern Ireland, right,

461
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 6: So those uprisings different kind of methods of crowd control,

462
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 6: use of quote unquote non lethal weapons, different kinds of

463
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 6: forms of incarceration, then used later against the Anti Nazi League.

464
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 6: So there's sort of a step. They're taking this colonial

465
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 6: rule back home that's the testing ground, and then using

466
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 6: it domestically. And I think what that actually does is

467
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 6: create a certain bridge between two communities that there's now

468
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 6: a point of connection where they can relate. That doesn't

469
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 6: mean they're in the same situation, right like it doesn't

470
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 6: mean that like someone protesting in the United States is

471
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 6: in the same situation as someone in to call in

472
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 6: my space, But having that shared system that actually binds

473
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 6: us together in that sense of solidarity, that's a new

474
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 6: model of safety. That's a new model of community. So

475
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 6: it's now seeing my strength in that alignment with someone else,

476
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 6: of connecting with communities internationally, learning from what they're doing,

477
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 6: but making real connections between them, ones that have a

478
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 6: real sense of weight between them, where someone's success in

479
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 6: international social movement has real effect on your lives and

480
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 6: back and forth. I think committing to that is actually

481
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 6: the kind of biggest thing we can do that creates

482
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 6: an international movement, and it makes everyone stronger everyone, more effective.

483
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

484
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the strengths of anti racist

485
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: action was that it was always an international organization. It

486
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 3: was US and Canada and there were a lot of

487
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: chapters in Canada and that really helped break some of

488
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 3: the US exceptionalism understanding. But he also had corresponding organizations.

489
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: It was Resistancia, Redskin in Colombia in Bogaton, and a

490
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 3: couple of like Colleia. I think, and you know, I

491
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 3: think that that really is an important element. And again

492
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 3: what I said is that we need to understand that,

493
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 3: you know, similar to what Lennon said about the the

494
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 3: Russian Empire, that is the prison house of nations, that

495
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 3: there are captive nations inside the borders in the United States,

496
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: and that you know, indigenous sovereignty, uh, you know, Puerto

497
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: Rican independence and you know Hawaiian sovereignty and a lot

498
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 3: of other issues. And I think those are things that

499
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 3: you know, the fascists try to exploit. Also, you know,

500
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 3: they present themselves, you know, fascism presents itself in the

501
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 3: Third World as a strategy for you know, national dependence.

502
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: When the Japanese you know, empire, but it so forward.

503
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: It was the the you know, they presented themselves as

504
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 3: being opposing British and US imperiless in Asia. You know that,

505
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 3: and you know then they were employing their own imperialism.

506
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: But you know that that internationalist element I think is

507
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: really critical. And uh, I think the same thing in labor.

508
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: I think that the labor movement, you know needs in

509
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: this country needs to think about uh, you know, prison

510
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: struggles as part of the labor movement needs to think

511
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: about the internationalists uidlarity with labor struggles elsewhere. One of

512
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 3: the things I raised with in relation to the uh,

513
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: the Screen Actors Guild and Writers Guild here is that

514
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: you know, they're based this whole thing about artificial intelligence.

515
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: And I don't know if people are aware, but artificial

516
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: intelligence depends on tens of thousands of people in the

517
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: Philippines and elsewhere that are working, you know, as gig workers,

518
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: processing stuff to put it into artificial intelligence. And you know,

519
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: the same thing you're saying about the border, the technology

520
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: of self driving vehicles is based on the same technology

521
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: using to you know, for motion detection on the border.

522
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: And the reason they're doing that is also because the

523
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: people driving self driving vehicles is not just Google and uber,

524
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 3: but it's the US Army Tank Division which wants to

525
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: have automated self driving tanks the same way they have drones.

526
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 3: And having that understanding that it is up against the

527
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: global system and the fascists or a piece of that,

528
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 3: but they're not the only piece of that, I think

529
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: is really really critical to understanding what we have to

530
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 3: deal with.

531
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: We talk about, you know, what would a fascist government

532
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: look like if it was in control, you know, full

533
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 4: control with no opposition. I think there are plenty of

534
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 4: examples of that, and there's a fascist war happening right

535
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 4: now in Ukraine, and I think that there's so much

536
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 4: that we can learn from what is going on there

537
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 4: that oftentimes I think that as anti fascists we find

538
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 4: ourselves wanting to be with the left, that we get

539
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 4: into a political situation that gets muddled. I went to

540
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: the border twice in Ukraine when the war broke out.

541
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 4: I would relive Unite the Right one hundred times before

542
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 4: I had to go back to that again. We don't

543
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: understand scales until you have seen it, until you've seen

544
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 4: the hundred or the thousand yards there from hundreds of people,

545
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: you know, poring over the border. I'm sure James, you're

546
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 4: you're you're very familiar with this, with the border work

547
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 4: that you're doing there. These things are so often distant

548
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 4: and abstract to us that we we lose sight, that

549
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 4: we think that we can influence things within our own

550
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 4: spaces that will then have an impact on these bigger,

551
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: bigger systems, and we can't write. So I think that

552
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 4: you know, to go back to you know, what would

553
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 4: be the call of action? You know, what would I

554
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 4: want the listener to take take away from this. I

555
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 4: think that this is about, as somebody said earlier, listen,

556
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 4: listen more, and speak less. Right, try to read, Try

557
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 4: to to see what people elsewhere are doing, how they're organizing,

558
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 4: what their needs are. You know, how do we do

559
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 4: mutual aid in earthquake and flood stricken areas? How do

560
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 4: we do mutual aid for refugees who are fleeing a

561
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 4: war and things like that. There's just so so much

562
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 4: out there that we need to bring into perspective. And

563
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: if you think that you can fix any of it,

564
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 4: or even just a small part of it simply through

565
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 4: speaking up or you know, awareness campaigns, I think that

566
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 4: you're a misled So I think my call it action

567
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 4: is go out, read books, meet people, get off of Twitter.

568
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 4: Scrass for me to say it. But the master's tools

569
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: can't dismantle the master's house, right. We can't keep this

570
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: pattern of outrage cycles up. In order to move the

571
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 4: issue forward, we have to come up with something new.

572
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: My challenge to people is to put your brains together

573
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 4: and figure out what that news going to look like.

574
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: Maybe that's where we could end actually is with each

575
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: of you suggesting something like Emily has just done right,

576
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: something to read, something to do, and an action to

577
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: take that could concretely to help us oppose and rebuff

578
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: and push back against fashion.

579
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 5: I think it was pretty much going back to what

580
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 5: I was saying earlier, that it will begin when we

581
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 5: take the bull by the horns. It will begin whenever

582
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 5: we decide that we are going to establish this. I mean,

583
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 5: it goes back. You know, I grew up with hip hop.

584
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 5: I was in the punk scene. Both those genres. Both

585
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 5: those cultures were created by people who by those who

586
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 5: didn't see, say, the mainstream listening to them. So they said,

587
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 5: you know what, we don't need them. We need to

588
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 5: just go ahead and do what we need to do.

589
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 5: So we can benefit what it is we want to do,

590
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 5: and that's the attitude that we got to have. We

591
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 5: got to have that hip hop attitude, got to have

592
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 5: that punk attitude, and we just simply got to build

593
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 5: the institutions that will address the situation. And I will

594
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 5: say it again, that's what Occupy was about. I think

595
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 5: we need to continue to learn the lessons from Occupy

596
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 5: in order to go forward. And once we start doing that,

597
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 5: first of all, when we do that, we're going to

598
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 5: see again people trying to either co op or or

599
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 5: take it down. And we got to also protect ourselves

600
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 5: from from that as well. I mean, I know I'm

601
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 5: repeating what I had said earlier, but I think that

602
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 5: the solutions and you know what I didn't say. I

603
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 5: think the solutions are already being implemented. I think that

604
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 5: we are all have been working and doing this. Folks

605
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 5: that aren't on this folks that aren't on this podcast,

606
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 5: folks that would never be on any pockets are just

607
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 5: basically putting their time and to make sure that the

608
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 5: things are done properly. I just got I just saw

609
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 5: on the news that they had in Delaware they just

610
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 5: passed the law against I guess what they call panic

611
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 5: panic killings in regards to the LGBTQ community. You know

612
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 5: that what they call back in the day, the gay

613
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 5: panic thing defense. Yeah.

614
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

615
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 5: Delaware became the seventeenth state I believe, yesterday to make

616
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 5: that illegal. It should have been illegal in the first place.

617
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 5: But but they basically for those who don't know what

618
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 5: that means, it generally means you cannot kill somebody because

619
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 5: you're freaked out over someone being gag. I mean, that's

620
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 5: just basically what it is concerned for. It happened after

621
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 5: Jenny Jones. Uh, somebody expressed their feelings towards another man,

622
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 5: and that person after the Jenny Jones show had murdered

623
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 5: that person, and the killer, instead of getting first degree murder,

624
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 5: got second degree murder because he used a gay panic defense.

625
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 5: So people initially, so that was where everything started, and

626
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 5: everybody was saying that we got to do something about that.

627
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 5: If it was not for us putting together the mechanism

628
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 5: and the institutions to breasically basically voice our concerns, voice

629
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 5: our issues, and say we got to do something about

630
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 5: this today, would that have happened. It should not be

631
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 5: seventeen states, By the way, it should be all fifty.

632
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 5: But that's the kind of things that we need to do.

633
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 5: These are the things that it's all going to depend

634
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 5: on us, and how we act to things that is

635
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 5: going to make all the difference in the world. So

636
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 5: when everybody's ready, let's rock and roll.

637
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 6: I think I'm really interested in getting people connected as

638
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 6: social movements for their entire lives and seeing things through

639
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 6: being really connected with communities. And I think that's about

640
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 6: looking about where people fit in, where they feel comfortable

641
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 6: building those relationships because it both at the kind of

642
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 6: local and national international scale, So finding I think a

643
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 6: piece and pathway for folks. I mean right now, I

644
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 6: think considering what we're dealing with, climate and economic collapse,

645
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 6: mutual aid networks or a natural central piece of that.

646
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 5: So it's a labor.

647
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 6: Movement and going where the far right is having their

648
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 6: front lines, making our defensive front lines, so for example

649
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 6: in defense and trans healthcare against that trans legislation and

650
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 6: defense of queer events like dirrect mean story are that's

651
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 6: absolutely important, and we have those relationships now. So it's

652
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 6: about sort of finding a place to be able to

653
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 6: reproduce those social movements and grow them and again like

654
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 6: Daryl said, people are doing that, and I think like

655
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 6: as there are shifts, people have to kind of redefine

656
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 6: that a little bit. But having that adaptability is what

657
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 6: we've kind of learned over this rapidly changing environment the

658
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 6: last few years.

659
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll take again to give people a little bit

660
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 3: of sense of the longer view. I think that the

661
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: rise of the Christian Right in this country has a

662
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: lot to do with the distruction of the labor movement

663
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 3: and the collapse of organized labor. Was that vacuum was

664
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 3: filled by you know, the Christian right, because the labor

665
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 3: movement at one point did touch people throughout their lives

666
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 3: and their culture, and it was not just in your workplace,

667
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 3: but it was a community organization. And I think that

668
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 3: we have to rebuild that, you know, from the bottom up,

669
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 3: and it is happening. There's a lot of you know,

670
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: young people involved in labor organizing. I think that again

671
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 3: what I said earlier about the fractal nature of the system.

672
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 3: I think one of the things people left in the

673
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 3: name is anything they're trying to do, they have an enemy.

674
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: It's not just a problem that they're trying to face,

675
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 3: they have there is an enemy. Out there that is

676
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 3: trying to enforce the system that we have as it collapses,

677
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 3: and I think that that's critical. So yes, the mutual

678
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 3: aid and the kind of things Emily was talking about,

679
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: I think are critical. I think people are working on

680
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 3: people's assemblies. I was at this dual Power gathering and

681
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 3: the Midwest and there was just one up in Portland recently.

682
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 3: And I think that the understanding that all the power

683
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: and all the wealth that this system possesses is actually

684
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: stolen from the people that it oppresses and exploits, and

685
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 3: that it's our power and it's our power to take

686
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 3: it back. We have the creative power. I think that's critical,

687
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: and that their power is exploitive and power over an

688
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: hour is the power, you know, to create. I think

689
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 3: that understanding and that concept of solidary and I do

690
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: think that, you know, against Stephen Beko, part of the

691
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 3: Black Conscience movement in South Africa, said the you know,

692
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 3: the greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is

693
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: the minds of the oppressed. And I think to the

694
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 3: extent that we can wage to struggle for a different

695
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 3: consciousness that is not based on privilege, is not based

696
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 3: on getting along by going along is not based on individualism,

697
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 3: you know, but is based on collective solidarity, and that

698
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 3: actually disempowers the people that we're dealing with and threatens

699
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 3: them in ways that you know, they're they're they're freaked out.

700
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 3: They understand better than we do the tenuous nature of

701
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 3: their power. And you know the reason for fascism, the

702
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 3: turn to fascism is that they want to try to

703
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 3: intimidate people and you know, you know, break people, people

704
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: sell clarity up. And I think that that, you know,

705
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 3: we need to understand there's a dialectic there and to

706
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: the extent that we can create those connections between people

707
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 3: that actually disempowers them, the fascists and the state. You know,

708
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: I have a different perspective on the three way fight.

709
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: I think the three way fight is versus the fascists,

710
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: you know, the self declared fascists and against the state

711
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 3: and the capitalist the bourgeoisie. And you know, they're not identical.

712
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 3: They have contradictions with each other and we can exploit

713
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: those and drive wedges of our own. I think we

714
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: have to find wedge issues that peel people off from

715
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 3: their identification with the oppressor, with white supremacy and with

716
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 3: imperialism and you know, pull people together and then who've

717
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 3: been you know, separated from that identification with the state

718
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 3: and with white power and bring them into solidarity with

719
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 3: you know, the global majority of people who are struggling

720
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 3: for you know, survival and a better world.

721
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: Does anyone have anything to plug besides the book?

722
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, explicitly plug the books. I don't think we did, Like, like,

723
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: what where can you buy it?

724
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 5: What's your code? Yeah?

725
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 6: I can plug in and do the self promotion. So

726
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 6: the book is no passeran anti fascist Dispatches from a

727
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 6: World on crisis, So we all have chapters in it.

728
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 5: I edited it. It's with AKA.

729
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 6: Press, who listeners are probably familiar with, so you can

730
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 6: get AKA Press. Always recommend folks go to Akpress and

731
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 6: buy directly if they can, but you can get it

732
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 6: pretty much anywhere. And it's a hefty read. It's about

733
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 6: five hundred pages, about twenty five chapters, and it really

734
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 6: covers the gamut. Some of the stuff we talked about,

735
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 6: some stuff we didn't get to. So it's a really

736
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 6: good overview of some of the different conversations happening in

737
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 6: the anti fascist movement and hopefully where it goes in

738
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 6: the Future.

739
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll second that. I think the chapter in anti

740
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 3: fascism in the black metal scene was really fascinating and

741
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: worth the price of the book all by itself, honestly

742
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: the stuff. But India, I did want to talk to

743
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 3: other books. I've been involved in what is called the

744
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 3: Blue Agave Revolution. It's self published myself and OsO Blanco

745
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 3: Indigenous political Prisoner Contact, Anti Racist Actions, anti Racist dot

746
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 3: Org or emailed me anti racist on the score, laid

747
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 3: Yahoo dot Com. I was also involved with although I

748
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 3: did not edit or anything, but I contributed a lot

749
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: of material to we Go Where They Go, which is

750
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: from PM Press. It's the history of AAR and it's

751
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 3: chock full of incredible material about you know, specificity. One

752
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 3: of the things we didn't talk about aras involved in

753
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: was cop Watch. But you know, just a lot of

754
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 3: you know, cultural material and other stuff there that it's

755
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 3: well worth reading.

756
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 5: Well, I guess I'll try. I mean say, I have

757
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 5: a lot of stuff out there right now. One of

758
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 5: the things that you can look for with me is

759
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 5: a documentary that was put out in twenty eighteen called

760
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 5: Right Age of Rage. It's somewhere online. I believe it's

761
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 5: on TB right now what was on Netflix. I found

762
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 5: out that the reason why it's not on Netflix anymore

763
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 5: is because Netflix has deemed it too political. But you

764
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 5: can still find it out there. It's a really good

765
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 5: remmer on basically what it is we're fighting in this

766
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 5: current time. We Don't Walk in Fear is the latest

767
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 5: documentary that I've been involved with. Some students in Villanova

768
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 5: University wanted to do a documentary about me, and it's

769
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 5: not exactly available to the public. What I've been doing.

770
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 5: You can probably find it at film festivals and things

771
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 5: like that, but what I've been doing is showing it

772
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 5: at various events that I've been invited to, whether it's

773
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 5: some sort of speed engagement or what have you. So

774
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 5: it's only a half hour long. But if anybody's in

775
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 5: a university or in a bookstore or whatever and would

776
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 5: like me to come out and show show the documentary

777
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 5: to folks and talk about it later, please feel free

778
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 5: to give me. Hit me up over at our website

779
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 5: One People's Project dot com. We also have a newsline

780
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 5: that's adevox dot com, both of them on threads and

781
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 5: on ig We also have also the last thing that

782
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 5: I would like to hype is also in twenty eighteen,

783
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 5: there are There was the movie Skin where Mike Culter

784
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 5: who played Lue Cage and it's in the TV show Evil.

785
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 5: He plays me. It's about a neo Nazi, someone from

786
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 5: the villain the Social Club, one of the nastiest and

787
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 5: forces who got out thanks to myself and others. And

788
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 5: it's a it's a beautiful story and it's been now

789
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 5: since twenty eighteen. The short film is a different story.

790
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 5: I'm not going to say too much about it because

791
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 5: you need to watch it. You can find it on YouTube,

792
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 5: or you can find a feature Amazon feature Skin on

793
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 5: Amazon Prime. But you can find they find a short

794
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 5: film on YouTube. It actually won an Oscar in twenty nineteen,

795
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 5: and I'm listening as a consulting producer, so I guess

796
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 5: I have an oscar. And that's about it. I mean,

797
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 5: if you want me to speak, come to your colleges

798
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 5: or whatever to speak or show the documentary We Don't

799
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 5: Walk in Fear. Feel free to give me a ring.

800
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 5: I'll be happy to see you. I love traveling.

801
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 3: Like I mentioned one other thing. Actually we talked earlier.

802
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 3: I am the interim general manager of KPFK ninety point

803
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 3: seven FM in Los Angeles. It's one of the PACIFICA

804
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 3: radio stations. So it's KPFK dot Org. We have stopped

805
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: labed spying on the radio. We have It's going down

806
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 3: on the radio. We have Society and American Indian Airwaves

807
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 3: in the radio, we have Larrasa Radio, a.

808
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 5: Lot of others very worthwhile.

809
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 3: It's at KPFK dot org and we're in a current

810
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: membership drive for October. Anybody wants to join the station.

811
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: They don't live in LA and the Anti Racist dot

812
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 3: Org has about thirty five years of turning the tiet

813
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: and a bunch of stuff actually from earlier. I put

814
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 3: some of the stuff from Brother Reform from being Sexism

815
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: but I worked on in the seventies up there, including

816
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 3: a letter from Michelle McGee was just recently released finally

817
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 3: after I think forty eight years in prison, survivor of

818
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 3: the Mare in Courthouse Rebellion.

819
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 4: I don't have anything to plug. I have a book

820
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 4: that I'm working on getting representation for, but that's still

821
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 4: a little bit too early for me to plug. So

822
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 4: I'll just maybe plug a little bit of what is

823
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 4: continuing to happen in Charlottesville before we end, so some

824
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 4: of you may not be aware of that. Criminal cases

825
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 4: are still being brought against the neo Nazis who marched

826
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 4: with the tiki torches. We have sort of successfully convinced

827
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 4: the local prosecutor to do something about these fascists who

828
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 4: have obviously terrorized the community and continue to do it

829
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 4: in their other communities. And whether or not you agree

830
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 4: with that approach, the community in Charlottesville and Alcamoll still

831
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 4: needs that support and that witnessing. As this all heads

832
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 4: to trial this winter, we're expecting some renewed fascist attention.

833
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 4: So I'll just give a shout out for the community

834
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 4: and ask for your awareness.

835
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: Great, well, thank you very much for time everyone. I

836
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: think that was really instructive and interesting. And yeah, everyone

837
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 1: should read the book. I read much of it before

838
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: we started today. It's great, it's very interesting. Yeah, thank

839
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: you very much.

840
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

841
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

842
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 5: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

843
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

844
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 2: You can find sources for it could happen here. Updated

845
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 2: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.