WEBVTT - What Jane Goodall Teaches Us About Outsider Thought 0:00:15.564 --> 0:00:28.964 Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 0:00:29.084 --> 0:00:29.964 better decisions. 0:00:30.284 --> 0:00:32.964 I'm Maria Kanakova and I'm Nate Silver. 0:00:34.004 --> 0:00:35.964 So today on the show, Nate, we're going to be 0:00:35.964 --> 0:00:40.484 talking about someone who was an absolute pioneer in not 0:00:40.604 --> 0:00:44.484 only her field, but just in general in the world. 0:00:44.684 --> 0:00:48.324 Jane Goodall, who died last week. You know, she came 0:00:48.404 --> 0:00:52.364 to a lot of her breakthroughs from a very untraditional 0:00:52.964 --> 0:00:56.844 outsider perspective, and so we'll be going a little bit 0:00:56.884 --> 0:01:00.044 into her legacy and also talking about, you know, just 0:01:00.124 --> 0:01:05.364 the importance of outsider thought, curiosity, the things that make 0:01:06.044 --> 0:01:11.164 people truly successful in whatever field they choose to pursue. 0:01:11.324 --> 0:01:13.404 You know, how can we learn from Jene Goodall and 0:01:13.524 --> 0:01:17.804 actually apply it to our own careers, our own approaches 0:01:18.564 --> 0:01:21.964 to life. And we'll talk We'll get into a lot 0:01:22.004 --> 0:01:26.764 of detail about Jane Goodall's own life and the fact 0:01:26.804 --> 0:01:29.724 that she was known mostly for her work with chimpanzees. 0:01:30.244 --> 0:01:34.044 But there's a funny answer that she gave when she 0:01:34.204 --> 0:01:36.964 was asked about her favorite animal. 0:01:37.684 --> 0:01:41.124 My favorite animal, everybody thinks is a chimpanzee. But it's 0:01:41.164 --> 0:01:44.844 not true. Chimpanzees are so like people that you know, 0:01:45.044 --> 0:01:47.844 some chimpanzees are really not nice at all, just like 0:01:47.964 --> 0:01:52.324 some people really not nice. My favorite animal altogether is 0:01:52.364 --> 0:01:55.524 a dog, because dogs have taught me so much, and 0:01:56.084 --> 0:01:59.844 dogs are so faithful, and dogs give unconditional love, and 0:02:00.324 --> 0:02:02.564 I don't like to think of a world without dogs. 0:02:03.644 --> 0:02:08.004 So let's let's dive right in, Nate. Jane Goodall. She 0:02:08.084 --> 0:02:10.764 was someone who was very influential to me as a psychologist, 0:02:10.844 --> 0:02:14.164 but I'm assuming she was probably not quite as front 0:02:14.164 --> 0:02:17.364 and center to you, right, I'm guessing you were aware 0:02:17.404 --> 0:02:20.444 of her influence, but probably, you know, not someone who 0:02:20.524 --> 0:02:22.604 influenced your career choice or anything like that. 0:02:22.964 --> 0:02:23.444 Maria, No. 0:02:23.644 --> 0:02:26.444 I look, I was going to make a joke that 0:02:26.524 --> 0:02:28.844 the only thing I know about Jane Goodall is from 0:02:28.924 --> 0:02:31.764 Gorillas in the Miss, Right, the Sigourney Weaver character. 0:02:32.124 --> 0:02:32.644 It's not her. 0:02:32.964 --> 0:02:38.644 A There's more than one woman scientist, apparently, and she 0:02:38.884 --> 0:02:41.284 was not the scientist who inspired Grills in the Miss. 0:02:41.324 --> 0:02:44.204 So I know not very much about her. But sometimes 0:02:44.204 --> 0:02:46.324 it's fun. Sometimes you're the backseat driver. Today I'm the 0:02:46.324 --> 0:02:46.964 backseat driver. 0:02:47.164 --> 0:02:49.444 Right, I'm gonna hear you talk about why you admire 0:02:49.524 --> 0:02:52.124 Jane Goodall and just backseat drive. 0:02:52.444 --> 0:02:55.164 Yeah, So let me. Yeah, let me just say a 0:02:55.164 --> 0:02:59.164 little bit about why I really admire her. Obviously, she 0:02:59.364 --> 0:03:03.844 was just a pioneer in terms of what women can accomplish. 0:03:04.084 --> 0:03:07.244 She died at the age of ninety one, which just 0:03:07.324 --> 0:03:12.324 gives you a sense of when she started her career. 0:03:12.644 --> 0:03:16.924 Right at that point, you know, in when she was 0:03:17.004 --> 0:03:19.084 just starting out, there were not a lot of role 0:03:19.084 --> 0:03:23.524 models for women who were going into the sciences, and 0:03:23.604 --> 0:03:26.924 I think that she really paved the way for a 0:03:26.964 --> 0:03:32.244 lot of people to have the careers that they have today. Nate. 0:03:32.284 --> 0:03:34.804 I think we've talked on the show before about the 0:03:34.884 --> 0:03:38.204 importance kind of in career choices of role models, right, 0:03:38.244 --> 0:03:41.644 and of being able to visualize yourself in a certain career. 0:03:41.924 --> 0:03:44.364 And there's a ton of work that shows that. You know, 0:03:44.444 --> 0:03:46.604 if you see someone who looks like you, who seems 0:03:46.684 --> 0:03:49.364 like you, who's similar to you, doing something, you'd be like, oh, 0:03:49.524 --> 0:03:52.244 maybe I can do that thing. So for Jane Goodall 0:03:52.364 --> 0:03:56.644 to become, you know, this pioneering researcher was absolutely huge. 0:03:56.804 --> 0:04:02.004 But in terms of her contribution to science, I learned 0:04:02.084 --> 0:04:03.924 the most about her work when I was getting my 0:04:03.924 --> 0:04:08.364 PhD in psychology in a course called animal cognition which 0:04:08.484 --> 0:04:12.124 was all about animal intelligence, kind of animal emotions, how 0:04:12.484 --> 0:04:15.844 animals think, and that course would have probably, well, I 0:04:15.884 --> 0:04:19.884 wouldn't say probably, would literally have not existed without Jane Goodall, 0:04:19.964 --> 0:04:26.884 because what she did was basically show that animals were 0:04:27.084 --> 0:04:31.844 much more sophisticated than we previously thought, and that they 0:04:31.884 --> 0:04:34.924 had a lot more in common with humans than science 0:04:34.964 --> 0:04:39.404 had previously thought. So she observed, you know, her initial 0:04:39.444 --> 0:04:47.004 contribution when she went to Africa to study chimpanzees in Tanzania, 0:04:47.124 --> 0:04:52.964 and she observed them using tools, and not just using tools, 0:04:53.044 --> 0:04:59.364 but creating tools, right, something that didn't exist, and she said, basically, 0:04:59.644 --> 0:05:01.604 you know, I'm paraphrasing. 0:05:01.124 --> 0:05:01.684 Holy shit. 0:05:02.764 --> 0:05:06.444 Up until this point, we assumed that this was something 0:05:06.444 --> 0:05:10.844 that was unique to humans. And so she basically change 0:05:10.884 --> 0:05:14.284 the way that we thought about animals and what animals 0:05:14.284 --> 0:05:16.764 were capable of. And so she gave birth to this 0:05:16.924 --> 0:05:22.484 entire field of animal cognition and of realizing that, hey, 0:05:22.684 --> 0:05:26.164 you know, there is actually a lot going on here. 0:05:26.284 --> 0:05:31.564 Animals are capable of emotions, animals can recognize and experience death, 0:05:32.484 --> 0:05:38.004 animals can solve problems, and so I think that is 0:05:38.084 --> 0:05:41.004 kind of from a purely scientific standpoint, One of her 0:05:41.764 --> 0:05:45.724 central contributions to the study of the mind. And as 0:05:45.764 --> 0:05:48.804 a psychologist, you know, even though I don't study animals, 0:05:49.084 --> 0:05:51.884 I appreciate that she gave us deeper insight into both 0:05:51.924 --> 0:05:57.684 humans and animals through that very simple seeming in twenty 0:05:57.764 --> 0:06:02.524 twenty five, but back in the sixties, just absolutely wow, 0:06:02.764 --> 0:06:07.524 leap that. Hey, you know, chimpanzees think and they react, 0:06:07.764 --> 0:06:11.884 and they're smart and they do all sorts of fascinating 0:06:11.884 --> 0:06:14.884 things that people didn't really think to look for before. 0:06:15.164 --> 0:06:17.484 Do you think like workers are pissed off that they're 0:06:17.484 --> 0:06:19.524 They're like, we're fucking as smart as humans, right, so 0:06:19.764 --> 0:06:21.484 have like opposable thumbs. 0:06:21.484 --> 0:06:22.364 This fucking sucks. 0:06:22.804 --> 0:06:25.804 Yeah, No, I mean, I it's so funny, Like, yes, 0:06:25.924 --> 0:06:27.924 I do think that there are lots of pissed off 0:06:27.924 --> 0:06:30.644 animals there By the way, one of the less kind 0:06:30.684 --> 0:06:33.764 things that Jane Goodall discovered in her work with chimpanzees. 0:06:34.084 --> 0:06:37.764 And I was actually, you know, I remember when I 0:06:37.804 --> 0:06:39.924 realized this for the first time. It made me very 0:06:39.924 --> 0:06:43.804 sad because Jane Goodall, you know, you've seen pictures of her, 0:06:43.844 --> 0:06:46.324 you've heard her talk. She seems like such a hopeful, optimistic, 0:06:46.444 --> 0:06:50.964 positive person, and she she was, but she discovered that, 0:06:51.044 --> 0:06:56.364 you know, chimpanzees, first of all, they're omnivores. They're not 0:06:57.164 --> 0:07:01.244 herbivares as people thought, and they actually go ahead and 0:07:01.324 --> 0:07:04.844 seek meet and they kill, and they can be violent, 0:07:05.284 --> 0:07:10.124 and they have wars and they're aggressive, and so, you know, 0:07:10.284 --> 0:07:13.404 studying studying the chimps, Jane came to the conclusion that 0:07:13.524 --> 0:07:18.324 you know, our basically, our predisposition to violence is innate, 0:07:19.164 --> 0:07:21.764 and it can be very contagious. Right if one chip 0:07:21.804 --> 0:07:25.084 becomes violent all of a sudden, you have these groups 0:07:25.084 --> 0:07:28.964 of very violent chips who can wreak havoc and who 0:07:29.004 --> 0:07:31.924 can do a lot of damage. Chimps are strong, and 0:07:32.084 --> 0:07:35.724 so given how how much we share in common with them, 0:07:35.764 --> 0:07:37.644 she's like, I think this is true of humans as well, 0:07:37.964 --> 0:07:41.324 right that we Yes, I'm hopeful and optimistic and people 0:07:41.444 --> 0:07:42.964 can be good as well, and we have a lot 0:07:42.964 --> 0:07:45.444 of capacity for good. But we have to be careful 0:07:45.524 --> 0:07:49.564 because we have a lot of instincts towards being violent 0:07:49.684 --> 0:07:52.164 to each other. And if we see that sort of behavior, 0:07:53.844 --> 0:07:55.684 it's very easy to catch from someone else. 0:07:55.804 --> 0:07:56.644 Same with dolphins. 0:07:56.684 --> 0:07:59.804 By the way, dolphins are like rapists or like kill 0:08:00.044 --> 0:08:01.644 small porpoises and things like that. 0:08:01.764 --> 0:08:05.284 You know, yeah, Oh, it's actually it's actually no, it's 0:08:05.404 --> 0:08:08.404 it's crazy. I think it's important. You know, we're laughing, 0:08:08.444 --> 0:08:10.644 but I think it's important understand that there's a lot 0:08:10.684 --> 0:08:16.764 of like, yes, you know, we're all one interconnected ecosystem, 0:08:16.804 --> 0:08:19.484 but it's not like kumbayah, like we're all one big 0:08:19.484 --> 0:08:23.244 happy family. Like there's violence and animals that we that 0:08:23.284 --> 0:08:27.404 are incredibly smart can also be you know, incredibly violent, 0:08:28.404 --> 0:08:33.044 and they have warfare their territorial I mean, shit happens. 0:08:33.284 --> 0:08:35.684 And I think that it is important to understand all 0:08:35.724 --> 0:08:40.244 of that about the natural world. And Jane Goodall definitely did. 0:08:40.684 --> 0:08:43.484 And one off, you know, one of her key breakthroughs 0:08:43.524 --> 0:08:47.564 that she was very criticized for at first was actually 0:08:47.724 --> 0:08:52.964 seeing chimpanzees as individuals, seeing that they have personalities, right, 0:08:53.044 --> 0:08:56.804 that they can be distinguished from each other. And in 0:08:56.844 --> 0:09:00.004 her initial report that she wrote up, she didn't do 0:09:00.324 --> 0:09:04.564 what ethnographers did at the time, which was, you know, 0:09:04.684 --> 0:09:10.564 say like chimpanzee twelve x B three said this like 0:09:10.604 --> 0:09:13.684 she gave them names, right, she gave them She actually 0:09:13.724 --> 0:09:16.164 empathized with them, she spent time with them, She got 0:09:16.204 --> 0:09:18.164 them to trust her. She figured out how to win 0:09:18.244 --> 0:09:22.124 their trust and was able to kind of observe them 0:09:22.124 --> 0:09:25.684 closely because they let her. And that's crucial, right, they 0:09:25.724 --> 0:09:29.644 actually let her, and they have to let you. Chimpanzees 0:09:29.684 --> 0:09:31.484 are violent, like if they don't let you observe them, 0:09:31.524 --> 0:09:34.524 you ain't see enough. This was before the day when 0:09:34.524 --> 0:09:37.444 we could hide tiny cameras, right, So the chimpanzees got 0:09:37.484 --> 0:09:39.524 to let you in and she was able to kind 0:09:39.524 --> 0:09:43.044 of establish that trust and to be able to see 0:09:43.044 --> 0:09:43.964 them in that way. 0:09:44.164 --> 0:09:47.084 Is that a monkey in your background, Maria, or your shoulder? 0:09:48.004 --> 0:09:54.404 It is, see and it's not a chimpanzee. Do you 0:09:54.444 --> 0:09:55.644 know why? 0:09:55.964 --> 0:09:57.084 No, it has a tail. 0:09:57.324 --> 0:09:59.204 Chimpanzees do not have tails. 0:09:59.564 --> 0:10:00.244 I did not know that. 0:10:00.404 --> 0:10:03.604 Yeah, yes, you learn something new from Jay. I didn't 0:10:03.644 --> 0:10:07.764 do that on purpose. That is hilarious. Yeah. No. 0:10:07.884 --> 0:10:10.364 There's a famous scene from two thousand and one A 0:10:10.404 --> 0:10:13.844 Space Odyssey, I think, in which like the monkeys, I 0:10:13.844 --> 0:10:14.484 think they're monkeys. 0:10:14.484 --> 0:10:15.964 Maybe they're champanzees. Now I don't know. 0:10:16.284 --> 0:10:17.964 When I saw the film, I was nineteen years old, 0:10:18.044 --> 0:10:20.244 maybe not have been in a dose. 0:10:20.044 --> 0:10:23.204 Of psychedelic mushrooms. But like they know, it's a famous scene. 0:10:23.204 --> 0:10:25.044 You didn't notice the bit? Are they had tails. 0:10:25.524 --> 0:10:26.684 Didn't know it's where they had tails. 0:10:26.884 --> 0:10:29.604 But there's a famous scene where there's like a monolith, 0:10:29.684 --> 0:10:33.124 but it basically the monkeys discovering how to manipulate tools. 0:10:33.844 --> 0:10:40.084 Is this canonical metaphor for like human progress maybe to 0:10:40.124 --> 0:10:42.364 her ultimate death ultimately? Right? 0:10:42.404 --> 0:10:44.044 And so you know that alone. 0:10:43.764 --> 0:10:46.564 Kind of kind of changes a narrative, not just a narrative, 0:10:46.564 --> 0:10:48.884 but like the bilogical facts about like things that we 0:10:48.924 --> 0:10:50.324 regard as fundamentally human. 0:10:50.724 --> 0:10:53.044 You know, the Holo scene is the name. 0:10:52.964 --> 0:10:57.364 For for the era in which mankind or humankind begins 0:10:57.364 --> 0:11:01.124 to manipulate its environment with tools and technology. Right, And 0:11:01.204 --> 0:11:03.084 if that kind of predates the rise of man, or 0:11:03.084 --> 0:11:04.644 if the man the rise of mass more complicated, and 0:11:04.684 --> 0:11:08.404 that has all types of implications for evolution and psychology 0:11:08.444 --> 0:11:09.404 and everything else. 0:11:09.724 --> 0:11:13.764 Yeah, I think that's a really good point because it 0:11:13.844 --> 0:11:19.404 does once you realize that your conception of the what 0:11:19.564 --> 0:11:23.964 makes you know man unique versus not, once that shifts, 0:11:24.604 --> 0:11:28.964 then that's that's a huge that's a monumentally important change 0:11:29.084 --> 0:11:32.484 in just what you see, you know, how you study, 0:11:32.724 --> 0:11:36.684 how you conceive of humanity, and how you conceive of like, okay, 0:11:36.724 --> 0:11:40.404 what's unique to people? And if this isn't unique, then 0:11:41.164 --> 0:11:45.324 it actually prompts other questions and prompts a redefinition, and 0:11:45.364 --> 0:11:50.004 it prompts a kind of reconceptualization of our past. 0:11:53.684 --> 0:11:55.724 And we'll be right back after this break. 0:12:03.964 --> 0:12:09.644 One of the interesting things beyond Jane Goodall, but in 0:12:09.644 --> 0:12:12.604 the center of psychology for us to talk about today night, 0:12:13.884 --> 0:12:19.444 is you know how much that outsider perspective actually enabled 0:12:19.444 --> 0:12:22.444 her to see things that people who had gone through 0:12:22.444 --> 0:12:26.084 a more traditional, rigorous education system up to that point 0:12:27.004 --> 0:12:30.444 could not see. I did a little bit of research, 0:12:31.444 --> 0:12:37.724 because you know, it's obviously easy to kind of mythologize, 0:12:37.844 --> 0:12:40.604 and I wanted to know, like, how how often is 0:12:40.644 --> 0:12:43.644 it right that people who come from a less traditional 0:12:43.684 --> 0:12:48.244 background are the ones that end up making these huge changes? 0:12:48.684 --> 0:12:53.044 And it seems like Jane Goodall actually had a really 0:12:53.084 --> 0:12:59.044 interesting combination of insider outsider kind of status that helped 0:12:59.044 --> 0:13:01.404 her do what she did because she was an outsider. 0:13:01.524 --> 0:13:05.004 She never went to college, she didn't have a formal education, 0:13:05.164 --> 0:13:10.524 and yet from the tiniest age she was fascinated with 0:13:10.684 --> 0:13:16.524 animals and became fascinated very early on round age four 0:13:16.684 --> 0:13:22.204 is when she when she thinks it started with chimpanzees. 0:13:22.524 --> 0:13:27.284 In particular and monkeys and primates, and so she didn't 0:13:27.364 --> 0:13:29.084 end up going to college, and instead she went to 0:13:29.084 --> 0:13:33.764 secretarial school learned how to be a secretary, and she 0:13:34.044 --> 0:13:37.124 ended up you know, by the time she had finished 0:13:37.164 --> 0:13:41.884 secretarial school, she had basically on her own read every 0:13:42.044 --> 0:13:47.084 single book that was out there about Africa, about chimpanzees, 0:13:47.124 --> 0:13:50.644 about apes, about all all about all of these different 0:13:52.324 --> 0:13:55.724 different species, and about everything that she could basically that 0:13:55.804 --> 0:13:57.964 you could find, and there wasn't much, but she had 0:13:58.004 --> 0:13:59.764 read it all and she did. By the way, I 0:13:59.804 --> 0:14:02.924 end up getting a PhD from Cambridge because her initial 0:14:02.964 --> 0:14:07.124 work was so compelling that with the help of the 0:14:07.164 --> 0:14:12.004 person who became her mentor, doctor Leaky, who was the 0:14:12.604 --> 0:14:16.284 pre eminent ethnologist of the day, she was able to 0:14:16.284 --> 0:14:20.084 get accepted into Cambridge University without an undergraduate degree to 0:14:20.204 --> 0:14:22.644 end up getting a PhD. And so when she ended 0:14:22.724 --> 0:14:25.444 up meeting doctor Leaky, he was very impressed because she 0:14:25.444 --> 0:14:28.644 could basically answer any question that he asked her, even 0:14:28.684 --> 0:14:31.604 though she had never gone to school. And so in 0:14:31.604 --> 0:14:34.324 that sense, it's not like she was a total outsider 0:14:34.324 --> 0:14:38.644 who was trained in I don't know, baseball and somehow 0:14:38.804 --> 0:14:42.684 ended up coming to Africa and was like, ooh, I'm 0:14:42.804 --> 0:14:45.964 very good at observing this. It was something that she 0:14:46.084 --> 0:14:49.284 was passionate about and she was curious about, and that 0:14:49.364 --> 0:14:52.844 she had on her own kind of taught herself as 0:14:52.844 --> 0:14:56.404 an autodidect. But she when she came to Cambridge was 0:14:56.484 --> 0:14:59.564 just criticized by everyone saying, you're doing it all wrong. 0:15:00.044 --> 0:15:02.884 You are not supposed to look at chimpanzees this way. 0:15:03.244 --> 0:15:06.204 You are not supposed to empathize. They don't have minds 0:15:06.204 --> 0:15:09.564 of their own, they don't have personalities. You are project 0:15:09.724 --> 0:15:12.564 onto them. And she was like, fuck you, I know better, 0:15:12.604 --> 0:15:16.004 and she was right. And I think that that's, you know, 0:15:16.084 --> 0:15:20.484 something where we can actually see a broader point, which 0:15:20.564 --> 0:15:24.644 is that because she hadn't come up in academia, she 0:15:24.684 --> 0:15:27.284 didn't know that she was doing anything wrong right. She 0:15:27.324 --> 0:15:30.444 didn't know that you were quote unquote not supposed to 0:15:31.884 --> 0:15:34.124 look at them a certain way or describe them a 0:15:34.124 --> 0:15:38.604 certain way, and instead she just let her experience guide her. 0:15:39.444 --> 0:15:43.044 And I think that that's a really interesting point because 0:15:43.044 --> 0:15:45.084 if you look at a lot of people in a 0:15:45.084 --> 0:15:47.884 lot of different fields who make really big discoveries, they 0:15:47.964 --> 0:15:51.484 often don't come from kind of the traditional hierarchical background. 0:15:51.844 --> 0:15:54.124 So I come out of academia, and I know that 0:15:54.444 --> 0:15:56.244 you know, some of the people who are the toughest 0:15:56.404 --> 0:16:02.244 to to change, right, the people who will really not 0:16:02.364 --> 0:16:07.084 change their mind about anything, The people who argue basically 0:16:07.164 --> 0:16:11.564 until death's door. That know, to stay with Jane Goodall 0:16:11.644 --> 0:16:14.884 chimpanzees can't really use tools. Are people, you know, who 0:16:15.284 --> 0:16:19.244 have established themselves in the field and whose work your 0:16:19.324 --> 0:16:23.564 new ideas might challenge, right, kind of the the old establishment, 0:16:23.724 --> 0:16:28.564 the real in group. Those are often the people who 0:16:29.084 --> 0:16:32.364 are the most resistant to change. You. I'm sure you 0:16:32.404 --> 0:16:34.884 read Nate. You went to the University of Chicago, so 0:16:34.924 --> 0:16:38.764 I'm assuming that this is something that you read, maybe 0:16:38.804 --> 0:16:43.084 in more than one class, Thomas Kuhne's Structure of Scientific Revolutions. 0:16:43.604 --> 0:16:48.084 Yeah, basically, you know, one way to simplify the argument, 0:16:48.164 --> 0:16:50.004 right is like basically have to wait for people to 0:16:50.004 --> 0:16:51.444 to die, you know what I mean. 0:16:51.764 --> 0:16:53.004 That's a very. 0:16:52.844 --> 0:16:56.444 Good way of simplifying, because yeah, that's how you get 0:16:56.444 --> 0:17:00.844 what's what Kuhn calls paradigm shifts, because otherwise, you know, 0:17:00.964 --> 0:17:04.004 the the in group, they want to protect their old guard, right, 0:17:04.044 --> 0:17:08.164 they want to protect kind of their their ideas, their legacies, 0:17:08.204 --> 0:17:11.764 and so if you want scientif revolution to happen, don't 0:17:11.844 --> 0:17:14.324 kill them. That's that's not the takeaway. But you do 0:17:14.444 --> 0:17:17.924 need fresh eyes, fresh blood, people who don't feel threatened. 0:17:18.164 --> 0:17:20.684 And so I think that that is kind of that's 0:17:20.924 --> 0:17:24.364 some of why outsiders like Jane Goodall might end up 0:17:24.404 --> 0:17:27.404 being successful. But you also need someone like a doctor Leaky, 0:17:27.564 --> 0:17:31.524 who is the old guard and who is somehow not threatened, right, 0:17:31.844 --> 0:17:34.604 who lets her in because she wouldn't have ever gotten 0:17:34.644 --> 0:17:35.764 into Cambridge without him. 0:17:35.884 --> 0:17:39.444 Yeah, in my field term, you know, probably not as 0:17:39.764 --> 0:17:44.204 earth shattering as Jane Goodall or the fundamental biology of 0:17:44.244 --> 0:17:47.964 what makes us human and statistical and sabermetrics. I know 0:17:48.044 --> 0:17:50.324 people know that urn probably our audience half of them do, right. 0:17:50.564 --> 0:17:53.324 Sabermetrics is the statistical study of baseball that could be 0:17:53.324 --> 0:17:56.164 expanded to other sports. You kind of saw a structure 0:17:56.164 --> 0:17:59.204 of scientific revolutions thing occurring where like, you know, there 0:17:59.204 --> 0:18:02.324 were these huge moneyball wars so called, where you have 0:18:02.404 --> 0:18:04.084 the stat heads and they're kind of banished into like 0:18:04.084 --> 0:18:06.764 a broom closet, right versus like the jocks, right, and like, 0:18:07.244 --> 0:18:10.884 and now like basically every major sports franchise is like 0:18:10.884 --> 0:18:13.324 a whole department of like stat nerds, right, they're often 0:18:13.404 --> 0:18:15.804 running the teams or if they're not, the owners of 0:18:15.844 --> 0:18:18.764 the teams and like, and that happened in that was 0:18:18.844 --> 0:18:22.364 generational turnover in essence, right, Basically after ten years, the 0:18:22.404 --> 0:18:24.964 wars just kind of disappear and the stat heads the 0:18:25.004 --> 0:18:27.444 imates are running the asylum, right, the stat heeads are 0:18:27.484 --> 0:18:29.324 in charge after all. Right, Which is the other thing 0:18:29.364 --> 0:18:33.204 about like insiders outsider paradigms or knowledge is that, like 0:18:33.964 --> 0:18:36.404 you know, there are a lot of, if you will, 0:18:37.324 --> 0:18:40.884 evolutionary advantages for outsiders, right. 0:18:42.444 --> 0:18:44.724 Number one, And I guess I'm going with the evolution metaphor. 0:18:44.724 --> 0:18:47.964 They have like kind of more variation in terms of 0:18:47.964 --> 0:18:50.884 not genetic variation, but in terms of ideas. Right, They're 0:18:50.884 --> 0:18:53.084 going to try new things and they might try and fail, 0:18:53.124 --> 0:18:54.204 but we're in a competitive world. 0:18:54.324 --> 0:18:56.924 We discover this idea is eventually. 0:18:57.004 --> 0:18:58.964 I mean, there is like kind of an irony slash 0:18:58.964 --> 0:19:01.484 paradox where like, you know, you want to be an outsider, 0:19:01.524 --> 0:19:03.924 but not too much of an outsider, right, So it's 0:19:03.924 --> 0:19:05.484 like there's a lot of there's a lot of kind 0:19:05.484 --> 0:19:10.044 of qualifications on like who is outsider enough, But like 0:19:10.124 --> 0:19:13.124 you know, First of all, as you get to be 0:19:13.124 --> 0:19:16.044 more of an insider, than various bad things happen. 0:19:16.124 --> 0:19:16.284 Right. 0:19:16.364 --> 0:19:19.284 Number one, you become more more risk averse, more defensive 0:19:19.324 --> 0:19:22.644 of your position. Number Two, you kind of gain more 0:19:22.684 --> 0:19:25.324 political power. And there are things that are burdensome about 0:19:25.364 --> 0:19:29.764 having power, literally, everything from having more meetings to if 0:19:29.764 --> 0:19:30.284 you say. 0:19:30.084 --> 0:19:32.764 Things off the cuff and people will look at you funny, 0:19:32.804 --> 0:19:35.684 you have more to lose, right, you know. 0:19:35.764 --> 0:19:38.404 I think there's also a thing where, you know, as 0:19:38.564 --> 0:19:42.204 people age, then they may lose some degree of initiative 0:19:42.404 --> 0:19:45.284 and energy. And if you're kind of in a comfortable position, 0:19:45.764 --> 0:19:48.844 then you may kind of stop fighting for new ideas 0:19:48.884 --> 0:19:51.484 so much, stop changing your mind quite so much. Right, 0:19:52.524 --> 0:19:55.044 you know, if you acquire power, then you can become 0:19:55.964 --> 0:20:00.924 either a target for or a conduit for political power too, right, 0:20:01.004 --> 0:20:03.284 so you can become the target of your political opponents. 0:20:03.324 --> 0:20:05.684 You can become a politicized yourself. 0:20:05.724 --> 0:20:09.284 There's not often not that much self awareness from insight 0:20:09.684 --> 0:20:13.604 in general, whereas like outsiders who don't fit in have 0:20:13.684 --> 0:20:15.764 to be a little bit more aware of their of 0:20:15.804 --> 0:20:18.284 their surroundings so to speak, right, and they have to 0:20:18.284 --> 0:20:20.564 know how to like code switch and things like that 0:20:22.164 --> 0:20:24.044 you know, you also can just kind of get there's 0:20:24.044 --> 0:20:26.324 a little bit of the innovator's dilemma thing too, where like, 0:20:26.684 --> 0:20:28.884 as you've become more powerful, you develop more commitments to 0:20:28.924 --> 0:20:31.604 your constituents, to your employers, to everything else, you get 0:20:31.684 --> 0:20:35.564 bogged down, hard to innovate and so forth. Right, However, 0:20:36.684 --> 0:20:42.964 when the outsiders become powerful or become insiders, they can 0:20:43.044 --> 0:20:47.604 have gigantic egos. Right if you have had a contrarian 0:20:47.644 --> 0:20:51.484 idea a couple of times and then later been proven 0:20:51.524 --> 0:20:53.484 to be right and or to win the kind of 0:20:53.484 --> 0:20:56.644 acclaim of the broader community, boy, that's a really fucking 0:20:56.764 --> 0:20:58.724 nice feeling, right, It's kind of up there with like 0:20:59.284 --> 0:21:01.044 in our world, like winning the main event of the 0:21:01.084 --> 0:21:03.764 World Series of Poker or something, right, like no one's 0:21:03.764 --> 0:21:05.844 ever gonna no one's ever gonna take that away from me, 0:21:05.964 --> 0:21:07.804 and I prove my doubters wrong, because you. 0:21:07.724 --> 0:21:09.084 Know, anytime you do something, it's really hard. 0:21:09.124 --> 0:21:13.004 It's hard to be a paradigm shifting scientist in general, 0:21:13.084 --> 0:21:16.484 especially if you're you're a woman. Right until later win 0:21:16.604 --> 0:21:18.964 the admiration and respect of so many people, and I 0:21:19.284 --> 0:21:22.444 Jane Goodall seemed to handle that fame pretty well. But 0:21:22.484 --> 0:21:24.124 I'm not sure that everybody does, right. She had a 0:21:24.124 --> 0:21:28.804 funny line. She shot a video. I saw it on Twitter. 0:21:29.084 --> 0:21:31.204 She said, I want us to be released until I'm dead, right, 0:21:31.244 --> 0:21:32.924 And she put it very gently. She's like, you know, 0:21:33.524 --> 0:21:36.444 if there were a rocket ship that were beamed out 0:21:36.484 --> 0:21:38.884 to space and had certain people on it, I'm not 0:21:38.924 --> 0:21:42.284 gonna say who, maybe Elon Musk and Donald Trump. 0:21:43.484 --> 0:21:45.084 And President She she said. 0:21:45.204 --> 0:21:48.084 Well, I would put put in there, and I would 0:21:48.084 --> 0:21:52.324 put President She. I'd certainly put Patanyahu in there and 0:21:52.484 --> 0:21:55.484 his far right government. I'm all on that. 0:21:55.604 --> 0:21:59.884 Spaceship putting five on there. Yeah. That is, by the way, 0:22:00.044 --> 0:22:04.324 from a Netflix documentary that's called Famous Last Words. So 0:22:04.364 --> 0:22:07.524 she recorded it this past March, and it was only 0:22:07.564 --> 0:22:08.964 to be released after she died. 0:22:09.044 --> 0:22:12.764 So just came out of those five. If you had 0:22:12.764 --> 0:22:16.324 to have a bunk mate, right, you come in late 0:22:16.564 --> 0:22:18.564 to the Space Shuttle, you have to bunk with somebody. 0:22:19.164 --> 0:22:22.284 You don't. Don't do that to me. No, I can't. 0:22:22.364 --> 0:22:25.324 I can't. I think I would. I think I'd probably 0:22:25.404 --> 0:22:28.124 kill myself before getting off the shuttle. 0:22:28.764 --> 0:22:31.164 She might be fine, right, Well. 0:22:31.204 --> 0:22:34.124 Since I don't speak Chinese, I guess I guess. So 0:22:34.244 --> 0:22:36.364 if we wouldn't be able to because all the other 0:22:36.404 --> 0:22:41.084 ones there would be no Yeah, if you put me 0:22:41.124 --> 0:22:43.644 with Putin, I think I think one of us is 0:22:43.684 --> 0:22:47.444 gonna be dead very quickly, and it's probably gonna be me. 0:22:49.364 --> 0:22:52.764 If you could play video games with Elon, right, he might, 0:22:53.364 --> 0:22:54.044 he might be fun. 0:22:54.164 --> 0:22:56.884 I don't know. I wouldn't mind, you know, Trump, I'd 0:22:56.924 --> 0:22:57.644 be fun for a night. 0:22:57.644 --> 0:23:00.164 I think he's actually like kind of like prissy about 0:23:00.204 --> 0:23:02.764 some stuff though, right, he'd probably be Anyway, let's not 0:23:02.804 --> 0:23:03.244 get into that. 0:23:03.284 --> 0:23:07.804 Well, what we're talking about, DA were talking about speaking. 0:23:07.484 --> 0:23:10.564 Of Okay, this is actually meant to be long circuitous 0:23:10.564 --> 0:23:12.764