1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:28,964 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:29,084 --> 00:00:29,964 Speaker 1: better decisions. 3 00:00:30,284 --> 00:00:32,964 Speaker 2: I'm Maria Kanakova and I'm Nate Silver. 4 00:00:34,004 --> 00:00:35,964 Speaker 1: So today on the show, Nate, we're going to be 5 00:00:35,964 --> 00:00:40,484 Speaker 1: talking about someone who was an absolute pioneer in not 6 00:00:40,604 --> 00:00:44,484 Speaker 1: only her field, but just in general in the world. 7 00:00:44,684 --> 00:00:48,324 Speaker 1: Jane Goodall, who died last week. You know, she came 8 00:00:48,404 --> 00:00:52,364 Speaker 1: to a lot of her breakthroughs from a very untraditional 9 00:00:52,964 --> 00:00:56,844 Speaker 1: outsider perspective, and so we'll be going a little bit 10 00:00:56,884 --> 00:01:00,044 Speaker 1: into her legacy and also talking about, you know, just 11 00:01:00,124 --> 00:01:05,364 Speaker 1: the importance of outsider thought, curiosity, the things that make 12 00:01:06,044 --> 00:01:11,164 Speaker 1: people truly successful in whatever field they choose to pursue. 13 00:01:11,324 --> 00:01:13,404 Speaker 1: You know, how can we learn from Jene Goodall and 14 00:01:13,524 --> 00:01:17,804 Speaker 1: actually apply it to our own careers, our own approaches 15 00:01:18,564 --> 00:01:21,964 Speaker 1: to life. And we'll talk We'll get into a lot 16 00:01:22,004 --> 00:01:26,764 Speaker 1: of detail about Jane Goodall's own life and the fact 17 00:01:26,804 --> 00:01:29,724 Speaker 1: that she was known mostly for her work with chimpanzees. 18 00:01:30,244 --> 00:01:34,044 Speaker 1: But there's a funny answer that she gave when she 19 00:01:34,204 --> 00:01:36,964 Speaker 1: was asked about her favorite animal. 20 00:01:37,684 --> 00:01:41,124 Speaker 3: My favorite animal, everybody thinks is a chimpanzee. But it's 21 00:01:41,164 --> 00:01:44,844 Speaker 3: not true. Chimpanzees are so like people that you know, 22 00:01:45,044 --> 00:01:47,844 Speaker 3: some chimpanzees are really not nice at all, just like 23 00:01:47,964 --> 00:01:52,324 Speaker 3: some people really not nice. My favorite animal altogether is 24 00:01:52,364 --> 00:01:55,524 Speaker 3: a dog, because dogs have taught me so much, and 25 00:01:56,084 --> 00:01:59,844 Speaker 3: dogs are so faithful, and dogs give unconditional love, and 26 00:02:00,324 --> 00:02:02,564 Speaker 3: I don't like to think of a world without dogs. 27 00:02:03,644 --> 00:02:08,004 Speaker 1: So let's let's dive right in, Nate. Jane Goodall. She 28 00:02:08,084 --> 00:02:10,764 Speaker 1: was someone who was very influential to me as a psychologist, 29 00:02:10,844 --> 00:02:14,164 Speaker 1: but I'm assuming she was probably not quite as front 30 00:02:14,164 --> 00:02:17,364 Speaker 1: and center to you, right, I'm guessing you were aware 31 00:02:17,404 --> 00:02:20,444 Speaker 1: of her influence, but probably, you know, not someone who 32 00:02:20,524 --> 00:02:22,604 Speaker 1: influenced your career choice or anything like that. 33 00:02:22,964 --> 00:02:23,444 Speaker 2: Maria, No. 34 00:02:23,644 --> 00:02:26,444 Speaker 4: I look, I was going to make a joke that 35 00:02:26,524 --> 00:02:28,844 Speaker 4: the only thing I know about Jane Goodall is from 36 00:02:28,924 --> 00:02:31,764 Speaker 4: Gorillas in the Miss, Right, the Sigourney Weaver character. 37 00:02:32,124 --> 00:02:32,644 Speaker 1: It's not her. 38 00:02:32,964 --> 00:02:38,644 Speaker 4: A There's more than one woman scientist, apparently, and she 39 00:02:38,884 --> 00:02:41,284 Speaker 4: was not the scientist who inspired Grills in the Miss. 40 00:02:41,324 --> 00:02:44,204 Speaker 2: So I know not very much about her. But sometimes 41 00:02:44,204 --> 00:02:46,324 Speaker 2: it's fun. Sometimes you're the backseat driver. Today I'm the 42 00:02:46,324 --> 00:02:46,964 Speaker 2: backseat driver. 43 00:02:47,164 --> 00:02:49,444 Speaker 4: Right, I'm gonna hear you talk about why you admire 44 00:02:49,524 --> 00:02:52,124 Speaker 4: Jane Goodall and just backseat drive. 45 00:02:52,444 --> 00:02:55,164 Speaker 1: Yeah, So let me. Yeah, let me just say a 46 00:02:55,164 --> 00:02:59,164 Speaker 1: little bit about why I really admire her. Obviously, she 47 00:02:59,364 --> 00:03:03,844 Speaker 1: was just a pioneer in terms of what women can accomplish. 48 00:03:04,084 --> 00:03:07,244 Speaker 1: She died at the age of ninety one, which just 49 00:03:07,324 --> 00:03:12,324 Speaker 1: gives you a sense of when she started her career. 50 00:03:12,644 --> 00:03:16,924 Speaker 1: Right at that point, you know, in when she was 51 00:03:17,004 --> 00:03:19,084 Speaker 1: just starting out, there were not a lot of role 52 00:03:19,084 --> 00:03:23,524 Speaker 1: models for women who were going into the sciences, and 53 00:03:23,604 --> 00:03:26,924 Speaker 1: I think that she really paved the way for a 54 00:03:26,964 --> 00:03:32,244 Speaker 1: lot of people to have the careers that they have today. Nate. 55 00:03:32,284 --> 00:03:34,804 Speaker 1: I think we've talked on the show before about the 56 00:03:34,884 --> 00:03:38,204 Speaker 1: importance kind of in career choices of role models, right, 57 00:03:38,244 --> 00:03:41,644 Speaker 1: and of being able to visualize yourself in a certain career. 58 00:03:41,924 --> 00:03:44,364 Speaker 1: And there's a ton of work that shows that. You know, 59 00:03:44,444 --> 00:03:46,604 Speaker 1: if you see someone who looks like you, who seems 60 00:03:46,684 --> 00:03:49,364 Speaker 1: like you, who's similar to you, doing something, you'd be like, oh, 61 00:03:49,524 --> 00:03:52,244 Speaker 1: maybe I can do that thing. So for Jane Goodall 62 00:03:52,364 --> 00:03:56,644 Speaker 1: to become, you know, this pioneering researcher was absolutely huge. 63 00:03:56,804 --> 00:04:02,004 Speaker 1: But in terms of her contribution to science, I learned 64 00:04:02,084 --> 00:04:03,924 Speaker 1: the most about her work when I was getting my 65 00:04:03,924 --> 00:04:08,364 Speaker 1: PhD in psychology in a course called animal cognition which 66 00:04:08,484 --> 00:04:12,124 Speaker 1: was all about animal intelligence, kind of animal emotions, how 67 00:04:12,484 --> 00:04:15,844 Speaker 1: animals think, and that course would have probably, well, I 68 00:04:15,884 --> 00:04:19,884 Speaker 1: wouldn't say probably, would literally have not existed without Jane Goodall, 69 00:04:19,964 --> 00:04:26,884 Speaker 1: because what she did was basically show that animals were 70 00:04:27,084 --> 00:04:31,844 Speaker 1: much more sophisticated than we previously thought, and that they 71 00:04:31,884 --> 00:04:34,924 Speaker 1: had a lot more in common with humans than science 72 00:04:34,964 --> 00:04:39,404 Speaker 1: had previously thought. So she observed, you know, her initial 73 00:04:39,444 --> 00:04:47,004 Speaker 1: contribution when she went to Africa to study chimpanzees in Tanzania, 74 00:04:47,124 --> 00:04:52,964 Speaker 1: and she observed them using tools, and not just using tools, 75 00:04:53,044 --> 00:04:59,364 Speaker 1: but creating tools, right, something that didn't exist, and she said, basically, 76 00:04:59,644 --> 00:05:01,604 Speaker 1: you know, I'm paraphrasing. 77 00:05:01,124 --> 00:05:01,684 Speaker 2: Holy shit. 78 00:05:02,764 --> 00:05:06,444 Speaker 1: Up until this point, we assumed that this was something 79 00:05:06,444 --> 00:05:10,844 Speaker 1: that was unique to humans. And so she basically change 80 00:05:10,884 --> 00:05:14,284 Speaker 1: the way that we thought about animals and what animals 81 00:05:14,284 --> 00:05:16,764 Speaker 1: were capable of. And so she gave birth to this 82 00:05:16,924 --> 00:05:22,484 Speaker 1: entire field of animal cognition and of realizing that, hey, 83 00:05:22,684 --> 00:05:26,164 Speaker 1: you know, there is actually a lot going on here. 84 00:05:26,284 --> 00:05:31,564 Speaker 1: Animals are capable of emotions, animals can recognize and experience death, 85 00:05:32,484 --> 00:05:38,004 Speaker 1: animals can solve problems, and so I think that is 86 00:05:38,084 --> 00:05:41,004 Speaker 1: kind of from a purely scientific standpoint, One of her 87 00:05:41,764 --> 00:05:45,724 Speaker 1: central contributions to the study of the mind. And as 88 00:05:45,764 --> 00:05:48,804 Speaker 1: a psychologist, you know, even though I don't study animals, 89 00:05:49,084 --> 00:05:51,884 Speaker 1: I appreciate that she gave us deeper insight into both 90 00:05:51,924 --> 00:05:57,684 Speaker 1: humans and animals through that very simple seeming in twenty 91 00:05:57,764 --> 00:06:02,524 Speaker 1: twenty five, but back in the sixties, just absolutely wow, 92 00:06:02,764 --> 00:06:07,524 Speaker 1: leap that. Hey, you know, chimpanzees think and they react, 93 00:06:07,764 --> 00:06:11,884 Speaker 1: and they're smart and they do all sorts of fascinating 94 00:06:11,884 --> 00:06:14,884 Speaker 1: things that people didn't really think to look for before. 95 00:06:15,164 --> 00:06:17,484 Speaker 4: Do you think like workers are pissed off that they're 96 00:06:17,484 --> 00:06:19,524 Speaker 4: They're like, we're fucking as smart as humans, right, so 97 00:06:19,764 --> 00:06:21,484 Speaker 4: have like opposable thumbs. 98 00:06:21,484 --> 00:06:22,364 Speaker 2: This fucking sucks. 99 00:06:22,804 --> 00:06:25,804 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean, I it's so funny, Like, yes, 100 00:06:25,924 --> 00:06:27,924 Speaker 1: I do think that there are lots of pissed off 101 00:06:27,924 --> 00:06:30,644 Speaker 1: animals there By the way, one of the less kind 102 00:06:30,684 --> 00:06:33,764 Speaker 1: things that Jane Goodall discovered in her work with chimpanzees. 103 00:06:34,084 --> 00:06:37,764 Speaker 1: And I was actually, you know, I remember when I 104 00:06:37,804 --> 00:06:39,924 Speaker 1: realized this for the first time. It made me very 105 00:06:39,924 --> 00:06:43,804 Speaker 1: sad because Jane Goodall, you know, you've seen pictures of her, 106 00:06:43,844 --> 00:06:46,324 Speaker 1: you've heard her talk. She seems like such a hopeful, optimistic, 107 00:06:46,444 --> 00:06:50,964 Speaker 1: positive person, and she she was, but she discovered that, 108 00:06:51,044 --> 00:06:56,364 Speaker 1: you know, chimpanzees, first of all, they're omnivores. They're not 109 00:06:57,164 --> 00:07:01,244 Speaker 1: herbivares as people thought, and they actually go ahead and 110 00:07:01,324 --> 00:07:04,844 Speaker 1: seek meet and they kill, and they can be violent, 111 00:07:05,284 --> 00:07:10,124 Speaker 1: and they have wars and they're aggressive, and so, you know, 112 00:07:10,284 --> 00:07:13,404 Speaker 1: studying studying the chimps, Jane came to the conclusion that 113 00:07:13,524 --> 00:07:18,324 Speaker 1: you know, our basically, our predisposition to violence is innate, 114 00:07:19,164 --> 00:07:21,764 Speaker 1: and it can be very contagious. Right if one chip 115 00:07:21,804 --> 00:07:25,084 Speaker 1: becomes violent all of a sudden, you have these groups 116 00:07:25,084 --> 00:07:28,964 Speaker 1: of very violent chips who can wreak havoc and who 117 00:07:29,004 --> 00:07:31,924 Speaker 1: can do a lot of damage. Chimps are strong, and 118 00:07:32,084 --> 00:07:35,724 Speaker 1: so given how how much we share in common with them, 119 00:07:35,764 --> 00:07:37,644 Speaker 1: she's like, I think this is true of humans as well, 120 00:07:37,964 --> 00:07:41,324 Speaker 1: right that we Yes, I'm hopeful and optimistic and people 121 00:07:41,444 --> 00:07:42,964 Speaker 1: can be good as well, and we have a lot 122 00:07:42,964 --> 00:07:45,444 Speaker 1: of capacity for good. But we have to be careful 123 00:07:45,524 --> 00:07:49,564 Speaker 1: because we have a lot of instincts towards being violent 124 00:07:49,684 --> 00:07:52,164 Speaker 1: to each other. And if we see that sort of behavior, 125 00:07:53,844 --> 00:07:55,684 Speaker 1: it's very easy to catch from someone else. 126 00:07:55,804 --> 00:07:56,644 Speaker 2: Same with dolphins. 127 00:07:56,684 --> 00:07:59,804 Speaker 4: By the way, dolphins are like rapists or like kill 128 00:08:00,044 --> 00:08:01,644 Speaker 4: small porpoises and things like that. 129 00:08:01,764 --> 00:08:05,284 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, Oh, it's actually it's actually no, it's 130 00:08:05,404 --> 00:08:08,404 Speaker 1: it's crazy. I think it's important. You know, we're laughing, 131 00:08:08,444 --> 00:08:10,644 Speaker 1: but I think it's important understand that there's a lot 132 00:08:10,684 --> 00:08:16,764 Speaker 1: of like, yes, you know, we're all one interconnected ecosystem, 133 00:08:16,804 --> 00:08:19,484 Speaker 1: but it's not like kumbayah, like we're all one big 134 00:08:19,484 --> 00:08:23,244 Speaker 1: happy family. Like there's violence and animals that we that 135 00:08:23,284 --> 00:08:27,404 Speaker 1: are incredibly smart can also be you know, incredibly violent, 136 00:08:28,404 --> 00:08:33,044 Speaker 1: and they have warfare their territorial I mean, shit happens. 137 00:08:33,284 --> 00:08:35,684 Speaker 1: And I think that it is important to understand all 138 00:08:35,724 --> 00:08:40,244 Speaker 1: of that about the natural world. And Jane Goodall definitely did. 139 00:08:40,684 --> 00:08:43,484 Speaker 1: And one off, you know, one of her key breakthroughs 140 00:08:43,524 --> 00:08:47,564 Speaker 1: that she was very criticized for at first was actually 141 00:08:47,724 --> 00:08:52,964 Speaker 1: seeing chimpanzees as individuals, seeing that they have personalities, right, 142 00:08:53,044 --> 00:08:56,804 Speaker 1: that they can be distinguished from each other. And in 143 00:08:56,844 --> 00:09:00,004 Speaker 1: her initial report that she wrote up, she didn't do 144 00:09:00,324 --> 00:09:04,564 Speaker 1: what ethnographers did at the time, which was, you know, 145 00:09:04,684 --> 00:09:10,564 Speaker 1: say like chimpanzee twelve x B three said this like 146 00:09:10,604 --> 00:09:13,684 Speaker 1: she gave them names, right, she gave them She actually 147 00:09:13,724 --> 00:09:16,164 Speaker 1: empathized with them, she spent time with them, She got 148 00:09:16,204 --> 00:09:18,164 Speaker 1: them to trust her. She figured out how to win 149 00:09:18,244 --> 00:09:22,124 Speaker 1: their trust and was able to kind of observe them 150 00:09:22,124 --> 00:09:25,684 Speaker 1: closely because they let her. And that's crucial, right, they 151 00:09:25,724 --> 00:09:29,644 Speaker 1: actually let her, and they have to let you. Chimpanzees 152 00:09:29,684 --> 00:09:31,484 Speaker 1: are violent, like if they don't let you observe them, 153 00:09:31,524 --> 00:09:34,524 Speaker 1: you ain't see enough. This was before the day when 154 00:09:34,524 --> 00:09:37,444 Speaker 1: we could hide tiny cameras, right, So the chimpanzees got 155 00:09:37,484 --> 00:09:39,524 Speaker 1: to let you in and she was able to kind 156 00:09:39,524 --> 00:09:43,044 Speaker 1: of establish that trust and to be able to see 157 00:09:43,044 --> 00:09:43,964 Speaker 1: them in that way. 158 00:09:44,164 --> 00:09:47,084 Speaker 2: Is that a monkey in your background, Maria, or your shoulder? 159 00:09:48,004 --> 00:09:54,404 Speaker 1: It is, see and it's not a chimpanzee. Do you 160 00:09:54,444 --> 00:09:55,644 Speaker 1: know why? 161 00:09:55,964 --> 00:09:57,084 Speaker 2: No, it has a tail. 162 00:09:57,324 --> 00:09:59,204 Speaker 1: Chimpanzees do not have tails. 163 00:09:59,564 --> 00:10:00,244 Speaker 2: I did not know that. 164 00:10:00,404 --> 00:10:03,604 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, you learn something new from Jay. I didn't 165 00:10:03,644 --> 00:10:07,764 Speaker 1: do that on purpose. That is hilarious. Yeah. No. 166 00:10:07,884 --> 00:10:10,364 Speaker 4: There's a famous scene from two thousand and one A 167 00:10:10,404 --> 00:10:13,844 Speaker 4: Space Odyssey, I think, in which like the monkeys, I 168 00:10:13,844 --> 00:10:14,484 Speaker 4: think they're monkeys. 169 00:10:14,484 --> 00:10:15,964 Speaker 2: Maybe they're champanzees. Now I don't know. 170 00:10:16,284 --> 00:10:17,964 Speaker 4: When I saw the film, I was nineteen years old, 171 00:10:18,044 --> 00:10:20,244 Speaker 4: maybe not have been in a dose. 172 00:10:20,044 --> 00:10:23,204 Speaker 2: Of psychedelic mushrooms. But like they know, it's a famous scene. 173 00:10:23,204 --> 00:10:25,044 Speaker 1: You didn't notice the bit? Are they had tails. 174 00:10:25,524 --> 00:10:26,684 Speaker 2: Didn't know it's where they had tails. 175 00:10:26,884 --> 00:10:29,604 Speaker 4: But there's a famous scene where there's like a monolith, 176 00:10:29,684 --> 00:10:33,124 Speaker 4: but it basically the monkeys discovering how to manipulate tools. 177 00:10:33,844 --> 00:10:40,084 Speaker 4: Is this canonical metaphor for like human progress maybe to 178 00:10:40,124 --> 00:10:42,364 Speaker 4: her ultimate death ultimately? Right? 179 00:10:42,404 --> 00:10:44,044 Speaker 2: And so you know that alone. 180 00:10:43,764 --> 00:10:46,564 Speaker 4: Kind of kind of changes a narrative, not just a narrative, 181 00:10:46,564 --> 00:10:48,884 Speaker 4: but like the bilogical facts about like things that we 182 00:10:48,924 --> 00:10:50,324 Speaker 4: regard as fundamentally human. 183 00:10:50,724 --> 00:10:53,044 Speaker 2: You know, the Holo scene is the name. 184 00:10:52,964 --> 00:10:57,364 Speaker 4: For for the era in which mankind or humankind begins 185 00:10:57,364 --> 00:11:01,124 Speaker 4: to manipulate its environment with tools and technology. Right, And 186 00:11:01,204 --> 00:11:03,084 Speaker 4: if that kind of predates the rise of man, or 187 00:11:03,084 --> 00:11:04,644 Speaker 4: if the man the rise of mass more complicated, and 188 00:11:04,684 --> 00:11:08,404 Speaker 4: that has all types of implications for evolution and psychology 189 00:11:08,444 --> 00:11:09,404 Speaker 4: and everything else. 190 00:11:09,724 --> 00:11:13,764 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really good point because it 191 00:11:13,844 --> 00:11:19,404 Speaker 1: does once you realize that your conception of the what 192 00:11:19,564 --> 00:11:23,964 Speaker 1: makes you know man unique versus not, once that shifts, 193 00:11:24,604 --> 00:11:28,964 Speaker 1: then that's that's a huge that's a monumentally important change 194 00:11:29,084 --> 00:11:32,484 Speaker 1: in just what you see, you know, how you study, 195 00:11:32,724 --> 00:11:36,684 Speaker 1: how you conceive of humanity, and how you conceive of like, okay, 196 00:11:36,724 --> 00:11:40,404 Speaker 1: what's unique to people? And if this isn't unique, then 197 00:11:41,164 --> 00:11:45,324 Speaker 1: it actually prompts other questions and prompts a redefinition, and 198 00:11:45,364 --> 00:11:50,004 Speaker 1: it prompts a kind of reconceptualization of our past. 199 00:11:53,684 --> 00:11:55,724 Speaker 2: And we'll be right back after this break. 200 00:12:03,964 --> 00:12:09,644 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things beyond Jane Goodall, but in 201 00:12:09,644 --> 00:12:12,604 Speaker 1: the center of psychology for us to talk about today night, 202 00:12:13,884 --> 00:12:19,444 Speaker 1: is you know how much that outsider perspective actually enabled 203 00:12:19,444 --> 00:12:22,444 Speaker 1: her to see things that people who had gone through 204 00:12:22,444 --> 00:12:26,084 Speaker 1: a more traditional, rigorous education system up to that point 205 00:12:27,004 --> 00:12:30,444 Speaker 1: could not see. I did a little bit of research, 206 00:12:31,444 --> 00:12:37,724 Speaker 1: because you know, it's obviously easy to kind of mythologize, 207 00:12:37,844 --> 00:12:40,604 Speaker 1: and I wanted to know, like, how how often is 208 00:12:40,644 --> 00:12:43,644 Speaker 1: it right that people who come from a less traditional 209 00:12:43,684 --> 00:12:48,244 Speaker 1: background are the ones that end up making these huge changes? 210 00:12:48,684 --> 00:12:53,044 Speaker 1: And it seems like Jane Goodall actually had a really 211 00:12:53,084 --> 00:12:59,044 Speaker 1: interesting combination of insider outsider kind of status that helped 212 00:12:59,044 --> 00:13:01,404 Speaker 1: her do what she did because she was an outsider. 213 00:13:01,524 --> 00:13:05,004 Speaker 1: She never went to college, she didn't have a formal education, 214 00:13:05,164 --> 00:13:10,524 Speaker 1: and yet from the tiniest age she was fascinated with 215 00:13:10,684 --> 00:13:16,524 Speaker 1: animals and became fascinated very early on round age four 216 00:13:16,684 --> 00:13:22,204 Speaker 1: is when she when she thinks it started with chimpanzees. 217 00:13:22,524 --> 00:13:27,284 Speaker 1: In particular and monkeys and primates, and so she didn't 218 00:13:27,364 --> 00:13:29,084 Speaker 1: end up going to college, and instead she went to 219 00:13:29,084 --> 00:13:33,764 Speaker 1: secretarial school learned how to be a secretary, and she 220 00:13:34,044 --> 00:13:37,124 Speaker 1: ended up you know, by the time she had finished 221 00:13:37,164 --> 00:13:41,884 Speaker 1: secretarial school, she had basically on her own read every 222 00:13:42,044 --> 00:13:47,084 Speaker 1: single book that was out there about Africa, about chimpanzees, 223 00:13:47,124 --> 00:13:50,644 Speaker 1: about apes, about all all about all of these different 224 00:13:52,324 --> 00:13:55,724 Speaker 1: different species, and about everything that she could basically that 225 00:13:55,804 --> 00:13:57,964 Speaker 1: you could find, and there wasn't much, but she had 226 00:13:58,004 --> 00:13:59,764 Speaker 1: read it all and she did. By the way, I 227 00:13:59,804 --> 00:14:02,924 Speaker 1: end up getting a PhD from Cambridge because her initial 228 00:14:02,964 --> 00:14:07,124 Speaker 1: work was so compelling that with the help of the 229 00:14:07,164 --> 00:14:12,004 Speaker 1: person who became her mentor, doctor Leaky, who was the 230 00:14:12,604 --> 00:14:16,284 Speaker 1: pre eminent ethnologist of the day, she was able to 231 00:14:16,284 --> 00:14:20,084 Speaker 1: get accepted into Cambridge University without an undergraduate degree to 232 00:14:20,204 --> 00:14:22,644 Speaker 1: end up getting a PhD. And so when she ended 233 00:14:22,724 --> 00:14:25,444 Speaker 1: up meeting doctor Leaky, he was very impressed because she 234 00:14:25,444 --> 00:14:28,644 Speaker 1: could basically answer any question that he asked her, even 235 00:14:28,684 --> 00:14:31,604 Speaker 1: though she had never gone to school. And so in 236 00:14:31,604 --> 00:14:34,324 Speaker 1: that sense, it's not like she was a total outsider 237 00:14:34,324 --> 00:14:38,644 Speaker 1: who was trained in I don't know, baseball and somehow 238 00:14:38,804 --> 00:14:42,684 Speaker 1: ended up coming to Africa and was like, ooh, I'm 239 00:14:42,804 --> 00:14:45,964 Speaker 1: very good at observing this. It was something that she 240 00:14:46,084 --> 00:14:49,284 Speaker 1: was passionate about and she was curious about, and that 241 00:14:49,364 --> 00:14:52,844 Speaker 1: she had on her own kind of taught herself as 242 00:14:52,844 --> 00:14:56,404 Speaker 1: an autodidect. But she when she came to Cambridge was 243 00:14:56,484 --> 00:14:59,564 Speaker 1: just criticized by everyone saying, you're doing it all wrong. 244 00:15:00,044 --> 00:15:02,884 Speaker 1: You are not supposed to look at chimpanzees this way. 245 00:15:03,244 --> 00:15:06,204 Speaker 1: You are not supposed to empathize. They don't have minds 246 00:15:06,204 --> 00:15:09,564 Speaker 1: of their own, they don't have personalities. You are project 247 00:15:09,724 --> 00:15:12,564 Speaker 1: onto them. And she was like, fuck you, I know better, 248 00:15:12,604 --> 00:15:16,004 Speaker 1: and she was right. And I think that that's, you know, 249 00:15:16,084 --> 00:15:20,484 Speaker 1: something where we can actually see a broader point, which 250 00:15:20,564 --> 00:15:24,644 Speaker 1: is that because she hadn't come up in academia, she 251 00:15:24,684 --> 00:15:27,284 Speaker 1: didn't know that she was doing anything wrong right. She 252 00:15:27,324 --> 00:15:30,444 Speaker 1: didn't know that you were quote unquote not supposed to 253 00:15:31,884 --> 00:15:34,124 Speaker 1: look at them a certain way or describe them a 254 00:15:34,124 --> 00:15:38,604 Speaker 1: certain way, and instead she just let her experience guide her. 255 00:15:39,444 --> 00:15:43,044 Speaker 1: And I think that that's a really interesting point because 256 00:15:43,044 --> 00:15:45,084 Speaker 1: if you look at a lot of people in a 257 00:15:45,084 --> 00:15:47,884 Speaker 1: lot of different fields who make really big discoveries, they 258 00:15:47,964 --> 00:15:51,484 Speaker 1: often don't come from kind of the traditional hierarchical background. 259 00:15:51,844 --> 00:15:54,124 Speaker 1: So I come out of academia, and I know that 260 00:15:54,444 --> 00:15:56,244 Speaker 1: you know, some of the people who are the toughest 261 00:15:56,404 --> 00:16:02,244 Speaker 1: to to change, right, the people who will really not 262 00:16:02,364 --> 00:16:07,084 Speaker 1: change their mind about anything, The people who argue basically 263 00:16:07,164 --> 00:16:11,564 Speaker 1: until death's door. That know, to stay with Jane Goodall 264 00:16:11,644 --> 00:16:14,884 Speaker 1: chimpanzees can't really use tools. Are people, you know, who 265 00:16:15,284 --> 00:16:19,244 Speaker 1: have established themselves in the field and whose work your 266 00:16:19,324 --> 00:16:23,564 Speaker 1: new ideas might challenge, right, kind of the the old establishment, 267 00:16:23,724 --> 00:16:28,564 Speaker 1: the real in group. Those are often the people who 268 00:16:29,084 --> 00:16:32,364 Speaker 1: are the most resistant to change. You. I'm sure you 269 00:16:32,404 --> 00:16:34,884 Speaker 1: read Nate. You went to the University of Chicago, so 270 00:16:34,924 --> 00:16:38,764 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that this is something that you read, maybe 271 00:16:38,804 --> 00:16:43,084 Speaker 1: in more than one class, Thomas Kuhne's Structure of Scientific Revolutions. 272 00:16:43,604 --> 00:16:48,084 Speaker 4: Yeah, basically, you know, one way to simplify the argument, 273 00:16:48,164 --> 00:16:50,004 Speaker 4: right is like basically have to wait for people to 274 00:16:50,004 --> 00:16:51,444 Speaker 4: to die, you know what I mean. 275 00:16:51,764 --> 00:16:53,004 Speaker 2: That's a very. 276 00:16:52,844 --> 00:16:56,444 Speaker 1: Good way of simplifying, because yeah, that's how you get 277 00:16:56,444 --> 00:17:00,844 Speaker 1: what's what Kuhn calls paradigm shifts, because otherwise, you know, 278 00:17:00,964 --> 00:17:04,004 Speaker 1: the the in group, they want to protect their old guard, right, 279 00:17:04,044 --> 00:17:08,164 Speaker 1: they want to protect kind of their their ideas, their legacies, 280 00:17:08,204 --> 00:17:11,764 Speaker 1: and so if you want scientif revolution to happen, don't 281 00:17:11,844 --> 00:17:14,324 Speaker 1: kill them. That's that's not the takeaway. But you do 282 00:17:14,444 --> 00:17:17,924 Speaker 1: need fresh eyes, fresh blood, people who don't feel threatened. 283 00:17:18,164 --> 00:17:20,684 Speaker 1: And so I think that that is kind of that's 284 00:17:20,924 --> 00:17:24,364 Speaker 1: some of why outsiders like Jane Goodall might end up 285 00:17:24,404 --> 00:17:27,404 Speaker 1: being successful. But you also need someone like a doctor Leaky, 286 00:17:27,564 --> 00:17:31,524 Speaker 1: who is the old guard and who is somehow not threatened, right, 287 00:17:31,844 --> 00:17:34,604 Speaker 1: who lets her in because she wouldn't have ever gotten 288 00:17:34,644 --> 00:17:35,764 Speaker 1: into Cambridge without him. 289 00:17:35,884 --> 00:17:39,444 Speaker 4: Yeah, in my field term, you know, probably not as 290 00:17:39,764 --> 00:17:44,204 Speaker 4: earth shattering as Jane Goodall or the fundamental biology of 291 00:17:44,244 --> 00:17:47,964 Speaker 4: what makes us human and statistical and sabermetrics. I know 292 00:17:48,044 --> 00:17:50,324 Speaker 4: people know that urn probably our audience half of them do, right. 293 00:17:50,564 --> 00:17:53,324 Speaker 4: Sabermetrics is the statistical study of baseball that could be 294 00:17:53,324 --> 00:17:56,164 Speaker 4: expanded to other sports. You kind of saw a structure 295 00:17:56,164 --> 00:17:59,204 Speaker 4: of scientific revolutions thing occurring where like, you know, there 296 00:17:59,204 --> 00:18:02,324 Speaker 4: were these huge moneyball wars so called, where you have 297 00:18:02,404 --> 00:18:04,084 Speaker 4: the stat heads and they're kind of banished into like 298 00:18:04,084 --> 00:18:06,764 Speaker 4: a broom closet, right versus like the jocks, right, and like, 299 00:18:07,244 --> 00:18:10,884 Speaker 4: and now like basically every major sports franchise is like 300 00:18:10,884 --> 00:18:13,324 Speaker 4: a whole department of like stat nerds, right, they're often 301 00:18:13,404 --> 00:18:15,804 Speaker 4: running the teams or if they're not, the owners of 302 00:18:15,844 --> 00:18:18,764 Speaker 4: the teams and like, and that happened in that was 303 00:18:18,844 --> 00:18:22,364 Speaker 4: generational turnover in essence, right, Basically after ten years, the 304 00:18:22,404 --> 00:18:24,964 Speaker 4: wars just kind of disappear and the stat heads the 305 00:18:25,004 --> 00:18:27,444 Speaker 4: imates are running the asylum, right, the stat heeads are 306 00:18:27,484 --> 00:18:29,324 Speaker 4: in charge after all. Right, Which is the other thing 307 00:18:29,364 --> 00:18:33,204 Speaker 4: about like insiders outsider paradigms or knowledge is that, like 308 00:18:33,964 --> 00:18:36,404 Speaker 4: you know, there are a lot of, if you will, 309 00:18:37,324 --> 00:18:40,884 Speaker 4: evolutionary advantages for outsiders, right. 310 00:18:42,444 --> 00:18:44,724 Speaker 2: Number one, And I guess I'm going with the evolution metaphor. 311 00:18:44,724 --> 00:18:47,964 Speaker 4: They have like kind of more variation in terms of 312 00:18:47,964 --> 00:18:50,884 Speaker 4: not genetic variation, but in terms of ideas. Right, They're 313 00:18:50,884 --> 00:18:53,084 Speaker 4: going to try new things and they might try and fail, 314 00:18:53,124 --> 00:18:54,204 Speaker 4: but we're in a competitive world. 315 00:18:54,324 --> 00:18:56,924 Speaker 2: We discover this idea is eventually. 316 00:18:57,004 --> 00:18:58,964 Speaker 4: I mean, there is like kind of an irony slash 317 00:18:58,964 --> 00:19:01,484 Speaker 4: paradox where like, you know, you want to be an outsider, 318 00:19:01,524 --> 00:19:03,924 Speaker 4: but not too much of an outsider, right, So it's 319 00:19:03,924 --> 00:19:05,484 Speaker 4: like there's a lot of there's a lot of kind 320 00:19:05,484 --> 00:19:10,044 Speaker 4: of qualifications on like who is outsider enough, But like 321 00:19:10,124 --> 00:19:13,124 Speaker 4: you know, First of all, as you get to be 322 00:19:13,124 --> 00:19:16,044 Speaker 4: more of an insider, than various bad things happen. 323 00:19:16,124 --> 00:19:16,284 Speaker 2: Right. 324 00:19:16,364 --> 00:19:19,284 Speaker 4: Number one, you become more more risk averse, more defensive 325 00:19:19,324 --> 00:19:22,644 Speaker 4: of your position. Number Two, you kind of gain more 326 00:19:22,684 --> 00:19:25,324 Speaker 4: political power. And there are things that are burdensome about 327 00:19:25,364 --> 00:19:29,764 Speaker 4: having power, literally, everything from having more meetings to if 328 00:19:29,764 --> 00:19:30,284 Speaker 4: you say. 329 00:19:30,084 --> 00:19:32,764 Speaker 2: Things off the cuff and people will look at you funny, 330 00:19:32,804 --> 00:19:35,684 Speaker 2: you have more to lose, right, you know. 331 00:19:35,764 --> 00:19:38,404 Speaker 4: I think there's also a thing where, you know, as 332 00:19:38,564 --> 00:19:42,204 Speaker 4: people age, then they may lose some degree of initiative 333 00:19:42,404 --> 00:19:45,284 Speaker 4: and energy. And if you're kind of in a comfortable position, 334 00:19:45,764 --> 00:19:48,844 Speaker 4: then you may kind of stop fighting for new ideas 335 00:19:48,884 --> 00:19:51,484 Speaker 4: so much, stop changing your mind quite so much. Right, 336 00:19:52,524 --> 00:19:55,044 Speaker 4: you know, if you acquire power, then you can become 337 00:19:55,964 --> 00:20:00,924 Speaker 4: either a target for or a conduit for political power too, right, 338 00:20:01,004 --> 00:20:03,284 Speaker 4: so you can become the target of your political opponents. 339 00:20:03,324 --> 00:20:05,684 Speaker 2: You can become a politicized yourself. 340 00:20:05,724 --> 00:20:09,284 Speaker 4: There's not often not that much self awareness from insight 341 00:20:09,684 --> 00:20:13,604 Speaker 4: in general, whereas like outsiders who don't fit in have 342 00:20:13,684 --> 00:20:15,764 Speaker 4: to be a little bit more aware of their of 343 00:20:15,804 --> 00:20:18,284 Speaker 4: their surroundings so to speak, right, and they have to 344 00:20:18,284 --> 00:20:20,564 Speaker 4: know how to like code switch and things like that 345 00:20:22,164 --> 00:20:24,044 Speaker 4: you know, you also can just kind of get there's 346 00:20:24,044 --> 00:20:26,324 Speaker 4: a little bit of the innovator's dilemma thing too, where like, 347 00:20:26,684 --> 00:20:28,884 Speaker 4: as you've become more powerful, you develop more commitments to 348 00:20:28,924 --> 00:20:31,604 Speaker 4: your constituents, to your employers, to everything else, you get 349 00:20:31,684 --> 00:20:35,564 Speaker 4: bogged down, hard to innovate and so forth. Right, However, 350 00:20:36,684 --> 00:20:42,964 Speaker 4: when the outsiders become powerful or become insiders, they can 351 00:20:43,044 --> 00:20:47,604 Speaker 4: have gigantic egos. Right if you have had a contrarian 352 00:20:47,644 --> 00:20:51,484 Speaker 4: idea a couple of times and then later been proven 353 00:20:51,524 --> 00:20:53,484 Speaker 4: to be right and or to win the kind of 354 00:20:53,484 --> 00:20:56,644 Speaker 4: acclaim of the broader community, boy, that's a really fucking 355 00:20:56,764 --> 00:20:58,724 Speaker 4: nice feeling, right, It's kind of up there with like 356 00:20:59,284 --> 00:21:01,044 Speaker 4: in our world, like winning the main event of the 357 00:21:01,084 --> 00:21:03,764 Speaker 4: World Series of Poker or something, right, like no one's 358 00:21:03,764 --> 00:21:05,844 Speaker 4: ever gonna no one's ever gonna take that away from me, 359 00:21:05,964 --> 00:21:07,804 Speaker 4: and I prove my doubters wrong, because you. 360 00:21:07,724 --> 00:21:09,084 Speaker 2: Know, anytime you do something, it's really hard. 361 00:21:09,124 --> 00:21:13,004 Speaker 4: It's hard to be a paradigm shifting scientist in general, 362 00:21:13,084 --> 00:21:16,484 Speaker 4: especially if you're you're a woman. Right until later win 363 00:21:16,604 --> 00:21:18,964 Speaker 4: the admiration and respect of so many people, and I 364 00:21:19,284 --> 00:21:22,444 Speaker 4: Jane Goodall seemed to handle that fame pretty well. But 365 00:21:22,484 --> 00:21:24,124 Speaker 4: I'm not sure that everybody does, right. She had a 366 00:21:24,124 --> 00:21:28,804 Speaker 4: funny line. She shot a video. I saw it on Twitter. 367 00:21:29,084 --> 00:21:31,204 Speaker 4: She said, I want us to be released until I'm dead, right, 368 00:21:31,244 --> 00:21:32,924 Speaker 4: And she put it very gently. She's like, you know, 369 00:21:33,524 --> 00:21:36,444 Speaker 4: if there were a rocket ship that were beamed out 370 00:21:36,484 --> 00:21:38,884 Speaker 4: to space and had certain people on it, I'm not 371 00:21:38,924 --> 00:21:42,284 Speaker 4: gonna say who, maybe Elon Musk and Donald Trump. 372 00:21:43,484 --> 00:21:45,084 Speaker 2: And President She she said. 373 00:21:45,204 --> 00:21:48,084 Speaker 3: Well, I would put put in there, and I would 374 00:21:48,084 --> 00:21:52,324 Speaker 3: put President She. I'd certainly put Patanyahu in there and 375 00:21:52,484 --> 00:21:55,484 Speaker 3: his far right government. I'm all on that. 376 00:21:55,604 --> 00:21:59,884 Speaker 1: Spaceship putting five on there. Yeah. That is, by the way, 377 00:22:00,044 --> 00:22:04,324 Speaker 1: from a Netflix documentary that's called Famous Last Words. So 378 00:22:04,364 --> 00:22:07,524 Speaker 1: she recorded it this past March, and it was only 379 00:22:07,564 --> 00:22:08,964 Speaker 1: to be released after she died. 380 00:22:09,044 --> 00:22:12,764 Speaker 4: So just came out of those five. If you had 381 00:22:12,764 --> 00:22:16,324 Speaker 4: to have a bunk mate, right, you come in late 382 00:22:16,564 --> 00:22:18,564 Speaker 4: to the Space Shuttle, you have to bunk with somebody. 383 00:22:19,164 --> 00:22:22,284 Speaker 1: You don't. Don't do that to me. No, I can't. 384 00:22:22,364 --> 00:22:25,324 Speaker 1: I can't. I think I would. I think I'd probably 385 00:22:25,404 --> 00:22:28,124 Speaker 1: kill myself before getting off the shuttle. 386 00:22:28,764 --> 00:22:31,164 Speaker 2: She might be fine, right, Well. 387 00:22:31,204 --> 00:22:34,124 Speaker 1: Since I don't speak Chinese, I guess I guess. So 388 00:22:34,244 --> 00:22:36,364 Speaker 1: if we wouldn't be able to because all the other 389 00:22:36,404 --> 00:22:41,084 Speaker 1: ones there would be no Yeah, if you put me 390 00:22:41,124 --> 00:22:43,644 Speaker 1: with Putin, I think I think one of us is 391 00:22:43,684 --> 00:22:47,444 Speaker 1: gonna be dead very quickly, and it's probably gonna be me. 392 00:22:49,364 --> 00:22:52,764 Speaker 4: If you could play video games with Elon, right, he might, 393 00:22:53,364 --> 00:22:54,044 Speaker 4: he might be fun. 394 00:22:54,164 --> 00:22:56,884 Speaker 2: I don't know. I wouldn't mind, you know, Trump, I'd 395 00:22:56,924 --> 00:22:57,644 Speaker 2: be fun for a night. 396 00:22:57,644 --> 00:23:00,164 Speaker 4: I think he's actually like kind of like prissy about 397 00:23:00,204 --> 00:23:02,764 Speaker 4: some stuff though, right, he'd probably be Anyway, let's not 398 00:23:02,804 --> 00:23:03,244 Speaker 4: get into that. 399 00:23:03,284 --> 00:23:07,804 Speaker 2: Well, what we're talking about, DA were talking about speaking. 400 00:23:07,484 --> 00:23:10,564 Speaker 4: Of Okay, this is actually meant to be long circuitous 401 00:23:10,564 --> 00:23:12,764 Speaker 4: transition talking about like you know, Elon Musk is an 402 00:23:12,804 --> 00:23:18,364 Speaker 4: example of somebody who sees himself as an outsider, right, 403 00:23:18,844 --> 00:23:24,884 Speaker 4: I think is more of an outsider than like the 404 00:23:25,004 --> 00:23:27,844 Speaker 4: Libs would give him credit for. Right, Like you know, 405 00:23:27,884 --> 00:23:30,884 Speaker 4: Elon Musk is somebody you might say, is not very 406 00:23:30,884 --> 00:23:33,804 Speaker 4: aware of kind of what his own limits are necessarily, right, 407 00:23:33,844 --> 00:23:35,044 Speaker 4: So that can be a big That can be a 408 00:23:35,084 --> 00:23:36,084 Speaker 4: big problem potentially. 409 00:23:36,364 --> 00:23:38,724 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that can definitely be a problem because you 410 00:23:38,804 --> 00:23:41,604 Speaker 1: do need to walk a fine line. And I think, 411 00:23:41,804 --> 00:23:44,484 Speaker 1: you know, like I said, Jangudal was an outsider, but 412 00:23:44,924 --> 00:23:48,644 Speaker 1: with like you know, someone from the inside who who 413 00:23:48,764 --> 00:23:51,684 Speaker 1: championed her, and she had a lot of insider knowledge 414 00:23:51,684 --> 00:23:55,004 Speaker 1: in terms of her in terms of her curiosity. I 415 00:23:55,044 --> 00:23:59,124 Speaker 1: think that she also seemed to have that kind of 416 00:23:59,284 --> 00:24:03,964 Speaker 1: golden personality that allowed her to transition to not just 417 00:24:04,084 --> 00:24:11,044 Speaker 1: insider status but trailblazer, right leader, paradigm shift creator, and 418 00:24:11,164 --> 00:24:16,204 Speaker 1: not lose her groundedness and her her curiosity and her 419 00:24:16,284 --> 00:24:21,084 Speaker 1: genuine sense of fun exploration, just wanting to do this 420 00:24:21,244 --> 00:24:24,124 Speaker 1: for the sake of science. And as you point out, Nate, 421 00:24:24,364 --> 00:24:27,044 Speaker 1: like that doesn't have to happen, right, A lot of 422 00:24:27,084 --> 00:24:32,484 Speaker 1: those same insiders who are the crusty old men, and yes, 423 00:24:32,524 --> 00:24:34,444 Speaker 1: I'm going to say men, because for the most part 424 00:24:34,484 --> 00:24:38,044 Speaker 1: they are, and we'll say maybe there's a crusty old 425 00:24:38,284 --> 00:24:42,924 Speaker 1: grand dame in there as well, but they were a 426 00:24:42,964 --> 00:24:46,124 Speaker 1: lot of them were trailblazers in their own day right. 427 00:24:46,324 --> 00:24:50,724 Speaker 1: A lot of them were kind of really innovative thinkers. 428 00:24:51,164 --> 00:24:58,484 Speaker 1: And then something happened, right, age happened, success happened, financial 429 00:24:58,484 --> 00:25:03,684 Speaker 1: success happened, success within academia, within your peers admiring you. 430 00:25:03,804 --> 00:25:06,124 Speaker 1: Kind of that happened, and then you have a lot 431 00:25:06,124 --> 00:25:09,644 Speaker 1: more to lose and including your kind of the things 432 00:25:09,644 --> 00:25:12,084 Speaker 1: that made you great. And it takes a very rare 433 00:25:12,124 --> 00:25:16,644 Speaker 1: person who would actually be able to withstand that. My 434 00:25:17,164 --> 00:25:21,484 Speaker 1: graduate advisor, Walter Michelle, who's someone who was, you know, 435 00:25:21,524 --> 00:25:24,884 Speaker 1: a trailblazer in the field of in the field of 436 00:25:24,884 --> 00:25:29,404 Speaker 1: psychology personality psychology, and he was someone who was incredibly 437 00:25:29,484 --> 00:25:33,804 Speaker 1: supportive of outsiders. I mean, he accepted me from a 438 00:25:33,964 --> 00:25:37,484 Speaker 1: very weird background to come into his program. 439 00:25:37,604 --> 00:25:37,724 Speaker 3: Right. 440 00:25:37,764 --> 00:25:40,164 Speaker 1: I came to him from television. I was working as 441 00:25:40,204 --> 00:25:43,884 Speaker 1: a producer for Charlie Rose. I did, you know, study 442 00:25:43,884 --> 00:25:47,044 Speaker 1: psychology before. But I explained to him that I wanted 443 00:25:47,044 --> 00:25:48,804 Speaker 1: to be a writer and I just loved his work 444 00:25:48,844 --> 00:25:51,804 Speaker 1: and I really wanted to you know that I was 445 00:25:51,884 --> 00:25:54,844 Speaker 1: motivated and I'd do my own research and all this stuff, 446 00:25:55,124 --> 00:25:58,684 Speaker 1: but that I wanted to kind of to be a 447 00:25:58,724 --> 00:26:01,324 Speaker 1: writer and not be a psychologist. And he loved that, 448 00:26:01,404 --> 00:26:03,084 Speaker 1: and he was like, this is amazing. You know, we 449 00:26:03,124 --> 00:26:06,444 Speaker 1: need more people who just are genuinely curious. And most 450 00:26:06,484 --> 00:26:08,644 Speaker 1: people would have shown me the door, right and be like, 451 00:26:08,684 --> 00:26:10,164 Speaker 1: get the fuck out of here. If you don't want 452 00:26:10,204 --> 00:26:11,444 Speaker 1: to actually. 453 00:26:11,244 --> 00:26:13,924 Speaker 4: Reporting on Charlie Rose. You probably were doing some field 454 00:26:13,964 --> 00:26:14,924 Speaker 4: work in psychology. 455 00:26:14,924 --> 00:26:20,844 Speaker 1: I would oh, absolutely, I say that that, yes, that 456 00:26:21,004 --> 00:26:27,644 Speaker 1: is definitely the uh yes, that is definitely an accurate observation. 457 00:26:28,124 --> 00:26:31,204 Speaker 1: But I still and I think I might have told 458 00:26:31,244 --> 00:26:35,644 Speaker 1: this story on Risky Business before, but you know, with 459 00:26:35,884 --> 00:26:38,564 Speaker 1: the if I did. I'm sorry for repeating myself. But 460 00:26:38,644 --> 00:26:42,804 Speaker 1: let me remind our listeners that when I started working 461 00:26:43,044 --> 00:26:47,004 Speaker 1: with Walter Michelle and did some of my initial studies 462 00:26:47,004 --> 00:26:51,044 Speaker 1: on self control, I found the opposite of the results 463 00:26:51,084 --> 00:26:53,124 Speaker 1: we'd been expecting, and found that the people highest in 464 00:26:53,124 --> 00:26:55,844 Speaker 1: self control actually did the worst on these like stock 465 00:26:55,924 --> 00:27:00,044 Speaker 1: market you know, decision tasks because they didn't take negative 466 00:27:00,044 --> 00:27:03,004 Speaker 1: feedback well, right, They just they assumed that they were 467 00:27:03,044 --> 00:27:08,244 Speaker 1: a lot smarter and they didn't learn, which was this 468 00:27:08,364 --> 00:27:15,124 Speaker 1: very avrrent find. And I was really scared of telling 469 00:27:15,204 --> 00:27:18,404 Speaker 1: Walter that this was the case, because his entire career 470 00:27:18,724 --> 00:27:22,004 Speaker 1: was built around the notion that self control good, right, 471 00:27:22,324 --> 00:27:25,524 Speaker 1: delay of gratification good. And I was like, uh, oh right, 472 00:27:25,684 --> 00:27:31,084 Speaker 1: self control people not doing well, and I like I delayed. 473 00:27:31,124 --> 00:27:33,564 Speaker 1: And I remember standing outside his office being like, fuck, 474 00:27:33,644 --> 00:27:36,004 Speaker 1: you know, this is bad. And then he was just 475 00:27:36,204 --> 00:27:39,404 Speaker 1: he was like a child. He was so excited. He's like, 476 00:27:39,604 --> 00:27:42,644 Speaker 1: I'm so excited that you found something bad about self control. Yes, like, 477 00:27:42,724 --> 00:27:45,244 Speaker 1: let's see where it goes. Get more data, Like do 478 00:27:45,324 --> 00:27:48,404 Speaker 1: this again, does it replicate? You know, this is great, 479 00:27:48,684 --> 00:27:51,164 Speaker 1: and that is I think that's very rare. But that's 480 00:27:51,204 --> 00:27:52,964 Speaker 1: the hallmark of someone who was in it for the 481 00:27:53,044 --> 00:27:56,324 Speaker 1: right reasons and who was motivated by kind of curiosity 482 00:27:56,684 --> 00:28:00,204 Speaker 1: and genuine love of learning. And I don't think that 483 00:28:00,364 --> 00:28:07,044 Speaker 1: it's actually I don't think that it's an artifact. I 484 00:28:07,084 --> 00:28:10,204 Speaker 1: think it's a feature that Walter Michelle was also someone 485 00:28:10,204 --> 00:28:14,164 Speaker 1: who was an artist. He actually had some solo shows 486 00:28:14,204 --> 00:28:17,564 Speaker 1: while he was alive and kind of experimented in all 487 00:28:17,564 --> 00:28:21,884 Speaker 1: those media that he read avidly outside of psychology that 488 00:28:21,924 --> 00:28:25,964 Speaker 1: he loved that I wanted to write, like, I think 489 00:28:25,964 --> 00:28:28,004 Speaker 1: that those things go hand in hand, right, because it 490 00:28:28,244 --> 00:28:32,844 Speaker 1: helps you stay outsidery while being on the inside, and 491 00:28:32,924 --> 00:28:35,244 Speaker 1: I think that that is crucially important. 492 00:28:35,324 --> 00:28:37,124 Speaker 4: No, it's a good I mean this is putting it 493 00:28:37,164 --> 00:28:39,924 Speaker 4: way too clinically, but like it's also a good life practice. 494 00:28:39,924 --> 00:28:42,844 Speaker 4: But like it's a good hedging strata. I mean, this 495 00:28:42,924 --> 00:28:45,564 Speaker 4: is want to stop piece of advice I give to 496 00:28:45,604 --> 00:28:48,764 Speaker 4: like any young person choosing your career right, make sure 497 00:28:48,844 --> 00:28:52,444 Speaker 4: that all your friends, all your network. If you want 498 00:28:52,444 --> 00:28:55,884 Speaker 4: to talk about peopleho are more frenemies whatever, Right, make 499 00:28:55,924 --> 00:28:58,604 Speaker 4: sure they're not all in your field of work a 500 00:28:58,804 --> 00:29:01,644 Speaker 4: because they'll provide opportunities to escape that field you need to. 501 00:29:01,724 --> 00:29:05,604 Speaker 4: But like, you know, like I don't spend a lot 502 00:29:05,604 --> 00:29:12,284 Speaker 4: of time talking to political insight, even though in principle 503 00:29:12,324 --> 00:29:14,804 Speaker 4: I'm like, well I can have a have coffee with them, 504 00:29:15,124 --> 00:29:17,564 Speaker 4: and if they're if everything they tell me is bullshit, 505 00:29:18,004 --> 00:29:19,964 Speaker 4: then I don't have to let it influence my judgment 506 00:29:20,164 --> 00:29:22,524 Speaker 4: at all. Right, I just think it involves like a 507 00:29:22,564 --> 00:29:26,124 Speaker 4: lot of work to maintain those relationships, and it's kind 508 00:29:26,124 --> 00:29:26,964 Speaker 4: of hard. 509 00:29:26,804 --> 00:29:30,564 Speaker 2: Not to me even, you know, even you know, in media, 510 00:29:30,564 --> 00:29:34,444 Speaker 2: I know more people, right, And so with media, I 511 00:29:34,844 --> 00:29:36,844 Speaker 2: you know, I'm like, okay, well I want to you know, 512 00:29:36,844 --> 00:29:37,404 Speaker 2: maybe when. 513 00:29:37,244 --> 00:29:39,884 Speaker 4: I criticize this person, and and but like I know 514 00:29:40,004 --> 00:29:42,044 Speaker 4: this person and I know the person who knows them, 515 00:29:42,084 --> 00:29:43,204 Speaker 4: and so I'm like, you know, you have to be 516 00:29:43,204 --> 00:29:44,564 Speaker 4: a little bit more careful, right. 517 00:29:45,364 --> 00:29:46,284 Speaker 2: You know. There's a lot of. 518 00:29:46,244 --> 00:29:50,044 Speaker 4: Value in in in not giving a fuck, And one 519 00:29:50,044 --> 00:29:53,124 Speaker 4: way you cannot give a fuck without facing existential risks 520 00:29:53,124 --> 00:29:55,604 Speaker 4: to your career is to have other fallbacks that you 521 00:29:55,644 --> 00:29:57,844 Speaker 4: can have potentially and by the way, can also be 522 00:29:57,964 --> 00:30:02,164 Speaker 4: like I think, you know, I think Jane goodall embraced. 523 00:30:01,684 --> 00:30:03,124 Speaker 2: It or at least came to peace with it. But 524 00:30:03,164 --> 00:30:03,804 Speaker 2: like being a. 525 00:30:05,364 --> 00:30:09,884 Speaker 4: Hero to people or becoming this I mean, you know, 526 00:30:09,964 --> 00:30:13,444 Speaker 4: one way to find celebrity is that, like, you no 527 00:30:13,524 --> 00:30:17,844 Speaker 4: longer have control of your own image and likeness in 528 00:30:17,884 --> 00:30:20,364 Speaker 4: a way, right that people will have ideas about you 529 00:30:20,884 --> 00:30:25,044 Speaker 4: that don't match the real you, and in fact are 530 00:30:25,084 --> 00:30:29,884 Speaker 4: some stylized version of you that maybe weaponized against you, 531 00:30:30,084 --> 00:30:34,124 Speaker 4: or if not against you, then at you know, perpendicularly 532 00:30:34,164 --> 00:30:36,484 Speaker 4: to like what you're trying to accomplish, right, you become 533 00:30:36,484 --> 00:30:38,644 Speaker 4: an avatar for something and like, and that can be 534 00:30:38,724 --> 00:30:42,044 Speaker 4: quite difficult, you know. I think I've I've dealt with that, 535 00:30:42,084 --> 00:30:44,604 Speaker 4: where you know, I do a lot of things. I'm 536 00:30:44,604 --> 00:30:46,884 Speaker 4: like way more famous on the election forecast and anything else, 537 00:30:46,924 --> 00:30:49,124 Speaker 4: which I kind of give the least a fuck about, right, 538 00:30:49,124 --> 00:30:50,844 Speaker 4: I think it's good work, but like I don't really. 539 00:30:50,764 --> 00:30:51,804 Speaker 2: Give a fuck, you know what I mean. 540 00:30:52,004 --> 00:30:54,964 Speaker 4: But at the same time, like I wouldn't have like 541 00:30:55,604 --> 00:30:59,084 Speaker 4: the privilege in the income and things like that if 542 00:30:59,124 --> 00:31:02,204 Speaker 4: if I weren't well known for that and so so 543 00:31:02,364 --> 00:31:06,484 Speaker 4: you know, any type of like nerd who makes it famous. 544 00:31:06,564 --> 00:31:12,444 Speaker 4: I'm I'm I'm sympathetic, and I'm sympathetic if they if 545 00:31:12,484 --> 00:31:15,404 Speaker 4: they keep it real by like, yeah, you know, the 546 00:31:15,404 --> 00:31:17,484 Speaker 4: different ways to keep it real. Maybe you speak truth 547 00:31:17,964 --> 00:31:22,964 Speaker 4: to power, maybe you're very judicious in what you say, right, 548 00:31:23,804 --> 00:31:26,284 Speaker 4: But like, I think they're definitely better and worse. 549 00:31:26,044 --> 00:31:27,724 Speaker 2: Ways to do it. 550 00:31:29,084 --> 00:31:31,684 Speaker 4: And there are different versions of it that don't become 551 00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:35,164 Speaker 4: it don't well becoming a boring old number of the establishment. 552 00:31:34,804 --> 00:31:38,644 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, yeah, absolutely absolutely, and I do you know, 553 00:31:38,844 --> 00:31:42,924 Speaker 1: I do think that maintaining that vitality is crucial to 554 00:31:43,804 --> 00:31:48,124 Speaker 1: making sure that you do stay relevant up until the 555 00:31:48,244 --> 00:31:50,684 Speaker 1: very last day. Right, that you're someone like good all 556 00:31:50,764 --> 00:31:53,604 Speaker 1: that when you die, like the world mourns, right, the 557 00:31:53,604 --> 00:31:58,444 Speaker 1: world notices because you've been advancing the field the entire time. 558 00:32:00,924 --> 00:32:12,284 Speaker 1: And we'll be back right after this. There was an 559 00:32:12,324 --> 00:32:15,724 Speaker 1: interesting study that I saw that came out a few 560 00:32:15,804 --> 00:32:20,884 Speaker 1: years ago. You basically how much does an outsider status 561 00:32:20,924 --> 00:32:25,164 Speaker 1: actually matter? And this was done by Gino Katani and 562 00:32:25,204 --> 00:32:30,364 Speaker 1: Simone Feriani, and they actually looked at Hollywood, So they 563 00:32:30,684 --> 00:32:38,844 Speaker 1: looked at around twelve thousand Hollywood professionals and creative success 564 00:32:38,884 --> 00:32:42,924 Speaker 1: you know awards, you know, critical acclaim, et cetera, et cetera. 565 00:32:43,604 --> 00:32:46,884 Speaker 1: And they basically did one of those you know charts 566 00:32:46,924 --> 00:32:49,924 Speaker 1: where you look at kind of the the networks, like 567 00:32:49,964 --> 00:32:52,324 Speaker 1: the circles of influence, where you have like the center 568 00:32:52,524 --> 00:32:55,164 Speaker 1: of the network and then you have the periphery of 569 00:32:55,204 --> 00:32:59,204 Speaker 1: the network. There's a specific word for that, right, And 570 00:32:59,644 --> 00:33:01,644 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the specific word for it is, 571 00:33:01,884 --> 00:33:05,044 Speaker 1: but you understand what I'm talking about visually. And so 572 00:33:05,124 --> 00:33:07,564 Speaker 1: they wanted to see kind of where are kind of 573 00:33:07,604 --> 00:33:11,444 Speaker 1: the most successful artists. Are they at the center, right, Like, 574 00:33:11,684 --> 00:33:14,244 Speaker 1: are they like really in the middle of things? Are 575 00:33:14,284 --> 00:33:18,044 Speaker 1: they at the periphery of connections? And they found that 576 00:33:18,124 --> 00:33:21,524 Speaker 1: it was neither. That it was actually people who were 577 00:33:22,004 --> 00:33:28,484 Speaker 1: kind of at the uh, the nexus between the center 578 00:33:28,644 --> 00:33:32,044 Speaker 1: and the periphery, right, So they actually had like they 579 00:33:32,044 --> 00:33:34,884 Speaker 1: weren't really on the outside, but they also were not 580 00:33:35,084 --> 00:33:39,364 Speaker 1: in the center, so they had outsider connections and kind 581 00:33:39,364 --> 00:33:44,204 Speaker 1: of outside our cred but they also had some industry 582 00:33:44,404 --> 00:33:48,164 Speaker 1: inns and people who supported them from the inside, which 583 00:33:48,204 --> 00:33:52,364 Speaker 1: I actually found remarkably similar. If you think about Jane 584 00:33:52,364 --> 00:33:55,324 Speaker 1: Goodall to kind of what she looks like in the 585 00:33:55,364 --> 00:33:57,844 Speaker 1: sense that she was on the outside, and yet she 586 00:33:57,924 --> 00:34:00,604 Speaker 1: did have someone who was at the very center. He 587 00:34:00,684 --> 00:34:03,324 Speaker 1: was the single, you know, most famous I think primatologist 588 00:34:03,364 --> 00:34:06,844 Speaker 1: at the time, who was her champion and who was 589 00:34:06,844 --> 00:34:10,204 Speaker 1: able to kind of push her along. And so yeah, 590 00:34:10,244 --> 00:34:12,644 Speaker 1: it was And by the way, I found this very 591 00:34:12,684 --> 00:34:17,484 Speaker 1: funny in the study of Hollywood. Basically, critics like it 592 00:34:17,524 --> 00:34:20,684 Speaker 1: if you look kind of outsidery, they give you really 593 00:34:20,684 --> 00:34:24,804 Speaker 1: good critical reviews. But if you want to get like Oscars, 594 00:34:24,924 --> 00:34:27,044 Speaker 1: and you want to get really high awards, you need 595 00:34:27,044 --> 00:34:30,284 Speaker 1: the industry insiders to vote for you as well, so 596 00:34:30,604 --> 00:34:32,844 Speaker 1: you have to walk this fine line. So it was 597 00:34:32,884 --> 00:34:35,364 Speaker 1: Actually it's an interesting study, but I think it's a 598 00:34:35,404 --> 00:34:39,124 Speaker 1: little bit flawed because you do Hollywood is a weird 599 00:34:39,164 --> 00:34:43,364 Speaker 1: place where you have these weird arcane voting systems, and 600 00:34:43,484 --> 00:34:46,764 Speaker 1: you really have to have some sort of politicking to 601 00:34:47,164 --> 00:34:50,364 Speaker 1: get into those systems as well. And that's not I mean, 602 00:34:50,404 --> 00:34:53,044 Speaker 1: that's true of academia. It's it's not quite the same, 603 00:34:53,364 --> 00:34:57,724 Speaker 1: but academia also has a lot of politicking and a 604 00:34:57,764 --> 00:35:00,964 Speaker 1: lot of those arcane systems in place, I guess, and 605 00:35:01,164 --> 00:35:03,724 Speaker 1: who gets tenure, who doesn't get tenure. All that stuff 606 00:35:03,804 --> 00:35:07,524 Speaker 1: is also incredibly fraught. So I take it back. I'm 607 00:35:07,524 --> 00:35:10,484 Speaker 1: just thinking out loud here. Maybe holly Wood isn't a 608 00:35:10,524 --> 00:35:14,084 Speaker 1: bad facsimile of academia. 609 00:35:15,924 --> 00:35:16,844 Speaker 2: No, Look, I think it's true. 610 00:35:16,844 --> 00:35:19,324 Speaker 4: In a lot of you know, everyone's maintaining their independent, 611 00:35:19,364 --> 00:35:25,644 Speaker 4: outsider cred and most people also like power and access 612 00:35:25,684 --> 00:35:28,604 Speaker 4: to power, you know what I mean, And there are 613 00:35:28,684 --> 00:35:32,404 Speaker 4: trade offs between those things, and there's a lot of 614 00:35:32,924 --> 00:35:36,684 Speaker 4: walking the tightrope brand management, whatever you want to call it, 615 00:35:37,004 --> 00:35:39,564 Speaker 4: involved in trying to kind of have your cake and 616 00:35:39,564 --> 00:35:39,964 Speaker 4: eat it too. 617 00:35:40,884 --> 00:35:45,244 Speaker 1: Yeah, Nate, what do you find the hardest kind of 618 00:35:45,284 --> 00:35:49,964 Speaker 1: the I don't even know how to phrase this, but 619 00:35:50,044 --> 00:35:52,724 Speaker 1: like the idea generation, all of that, like the creative 620 00:35:52,764 --> 00:35:55,884 Speaker 1: stuff or I think that's different for different people, like 621 00:35:56,244 --> 00:35:58,804 Speaker 1: the marketing and the actually like being able to get 622 00:35:58,804 --> 00:36:02,044 Speaker 1: it heard because there is I mean, those are skills 623 00:36:02,044 --> 00:36:06,244 Speaker 1: that are not always complementary, and there are some people 624 00:36:06,324 --> 00:36:09,644 Speaker 1: who are very good at one and not great at 625 00:36:09,924 --> 00:36:12,884 Speaker 1: the other, and in order to be successful in a 626 00:36:12,924 --> 00:36:16,524 Speaker 1: lot of industry, you really need both. And I'm gonna 627 00:36:16,524 --> 00:36:20,244 Speaker 1: say something that's very politically incorrect and people might get 628 00:36:20,284 --> 00:36:24,364 Speaker 1: really mad, but I'm just gonna say it anyway. Jane 629 00:36:24,404 --> 00:36:28,084 Speaker 1: Goodall was a knockout. She was hot, Like she is 630 00:36:28,124 --> 00:36:31,044 Speaker 1: a tall, gorgeous blonde like I see her and I'm 631 00:36:31,084 --> 00:36:36,044 Speaker 1: like whoa, Like holy shit, girl, like you're stunning and 632 00:36:36,604 --> 00:36:39,244 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Like that couldn't have hurt. I'm not saying 633 00:36:39,284 --> 00:36:42,564 Speaker 1: that it had any like her, she is a genius, 634 00:36:42,884 --> 00:36:47,084 Speaker 1: like her mind, her observational ability, like all of that is. 635 00:36:48,164 --> 00:36:50,324 Speaker 1: We're not doubting any of that. But she was her 636 00:36:50,404 --> 00:36:52,764 Speaker 1: own marketing in a way, right, Like you put her 637 00:36:52,844 --> 00:36:55,524 Speaker 1: on a poster and people are going to be interested. 638 00:36:56,324 --> 00:37:01,124 Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to diminish in any way what 639 00:37:01,284 --> 00:37:03,204 Speaker 1: she did, which is why I'm saying this at the 640 00:37:03,324 --> 00:37:06,204 Speaker 1: very end of the show and not the beginning, but 641 00:37:06,364 --> 00:37:09,404 Speaker 1: like it helped her with things that she probably would 642 00:37:09,644 --> 00:37:12,004 Speaker 1: interested in because she was just interested in the chimps. 643 00:37:12,404 --> 00:37:16,004 Speaker 1: But she ended up being such a forceful I think, 644 00:37:16,644 --> 00:37:22,484 Speaker 1: such a forceful marketing phenomenon, partly because of the full package. 645 00:37:23,844 --> 00:37:27,284 Speaker 4: No, Look, I think there is some minimum thresh of 646 00:37:27,324 --> 00:37:31,604 Speaker 4: for looking at successful people who are successful intellectuals, right, 647 00:37:33,644 --> 00:37:36,804 Speaker 4: particularly the ones that become like more kind of commercially successful. 648 00:37:36,804 --> 00:37:39,524 Speaker 4: I think it's important distinction, right, people who like become 649 00:37:39,564 --> 00:37:43,444 Speaker 4: well known generally and or make some money from that, right, 650 00:37:43,604 --> 00:37:50,724 Speaker 4: Like there's usually a fairly high baseline of charisma of 651 00:37:50,764 --> 00:37:54,604 Speaker 4: some kind. Yea, right, yeah, no, Look, I'm always motivated 652 00:37:54,684 --> 00:37:57,604 Speaker 4: myself by like the word. You know, my satisfaction is 653 00:37:57,644 --> 00:38:01,404 Speaker 4: when I published something, I finish a model, you finished 654 00:38:01,404 --> 00:38:03,684 Speaker 4: a book chapter, right, and like file it. Like that's 655 00:38:03,724 --> 00:38:07,004 Speaker 4: more satisfaction from me than like whether it gets like 656 00:38:07,084 --> 00:38:09,884 Speaker 4: praised or whatever or not later on and right, But 657 00:38:09,924 --> 00:38:13,924 Speaker 4: at the same at the same time, you know, I 658 00:38:14,004 --> 00:38:17,004 Speaker 4: kind of was an internet entrepreneur in my own way, 659 00:38:17,044 --> 00:38:19,924 Speaker 4: and you have to market your content. And if you're 660 00:38:19,924 --> 00:38:22,204 Speaker 4: an artist in particular, even more than a scientist, you 661 00:38:22,244 --> 00:38:24,804 Speaker 4: really have to market the fuck out of out of yourself, right. 662 00:38:24,844 --> 00:38:26,924 Speaker 4: And that's like, you know, it's like it's like half 663 00:38:26,964 --> 00:38:28,724 Speaker 4: the game, I think, and there are different ways to 664 00:38:28,724 --> 00:38:30,604 Speaker 4: play it. You don't have to do ways that are 665 00:38:30,644 --> 00:38:32,804 Speaker 4: fake or uncomfortable, right, I think sometimes you know kind 666 00:38:32,804 --> 00:38:35,964 Speaker 4: of people who like who need to be more deliberate 667 00:38:35,964 --> 00:38:36,404 Speaker 4: about it. 668 00:38:36,404 --> 00:38:39,564 Speaker 1: It's true, and Jane Goodall definitely wanted her work to 669 00:38:39,604 --> 00:38:41,564 Speaker 1: be known. I Mean, one of the first things she 670 00:38:41,604 --> 00:38:43,764 Speaker 1: did when she came back and started kind of getting 671 00:38:43,764 --> 00:38:47,804 Speaker 1: her PhD is write a popular book about what she discovered, 672 00:38:48,364 --> 00:38:50,924 Speaker 1: not an academic treatise, and people at academia hated this, 673 00:38:51,604 --> 00:38:54,364 Speaker 1: but she knew, right, she knew that she needed to popularize, 674 00:38:54,364 --> 00:38:58,004 Speaker 1: and to her that was incredibly important. And so because 675 00:38:58,044 --> 00:39:00,604 Speaker 1: for her, you know, she wanted to protect the natural environment, 676 00:39:00,724 --> 00:39:03,244 Speaker 1: she wanted people, she wanted to protect the rights of 677 00:39:03,284 --> 00:39:05,924 Speaker 1: the chimpanzee. She wanted all of these things that could 678 00:39:05,924 --> 00:39:09,804 Speaker 1: only come if she became a very powerful spokesperson for getting. 679 00:39:09,844 --> 00:39:12,964 Speaker 4: It can be one way to have this best of 680 00:39:13,004 --> 00:39:16,884 Speaker 4: both worlds scenario where like, you know, you're very tenure 681 00:39:16,884 --> 00:39:19,124 Speaker 4: and you're able to be intellectly free, but you can 682 00:39:19,764 --> 00:39:23,084 Speaker 4: gain variety notoriety, right, you have fewer restrictions on like 683 00:39:23,124 --> 00:39:25,724 Speaker 4: outside activity than you would at a corporate employer. 684 00:39:25,924 --> 00:39:27,484 Speaker 2: Can also be the worst of both worlds. 685 00:39:27,284 --> 00:39:27,684 Speaker 1: Though, right. 686 00:39:27,724 --> 00:39:31,844 Speaker 4: It can also be like that, like, you know, there's 687 00:39:31,884 --> 00:39:34,044 Speaker 4: a ton of group think, there's a ton of academic politics, 688 00:39:34,084 --> 00:39:36,124 Speaker 4: and soe you kind of like very restricted that way, 689 00:39:36,164 --> 00:39:43,204 Speaker 4: and you maybe don't realize how poorly the communication you're 690 00:39:43,284 --> 00:39:46,724 Speaker 4: encouraged to use an academic paper will come across to 691 00:39:46,844 --> 00:39:50,364 Speaker 4: like a smart outsider, right, yep, yep. 692 00:39:50,484 --> 00:39:52,924 Speaker 1: And I think just to Just to sum up, Jangodall 693 00:39:53,044 --> 00:39:58,404 Speaker 1: someone who just intuitively understood all of this, and someone 694 00:39:58,404 --> 00:40:04,404 Speaker 1: who managed to not only maintain her relevance but stay relevant, 695 00:40:04,524 --> 00:40:08,764 Speaker 1: stay outsider even as she became the most insider of 696 00:40:08,804 --> 00:40:11,844 Speaker 1: them all. And so I think that we can even 697 00:40:11,884 --> 00:40:15,644 Speaker 1: if you have nothing to do with psychology or animal 698 00:40:15,684 --> 00:40:18,004 Speaker 1: cognition or any of that, I think that there's a 699 00:40:18,044 --> 00:40:20,404 Speaker 1: lot here that you can take away from this in 700 00:40:20,484 --> 00:40:24,004 Speaker 1: terms of, you know, how to think about approaching your careers, 701 00:40:24,244 --> 00:40:27,124 Speaker 1: how to think about thinking, how to think about making 702 00:40:27,164 --> 00:40:30,244 Speaker 1: an impact on the world. Even at the very end. 703 00:40:30,404 --> 00:40:33,084 Speaker 1: She said, even if the world is going to go 704 00:40:33,244 --> 00:40:36,724 Speaker 1: up in flames, go down kicking and screaming. 705 00:40:36,644 --> 00:40:40,004 Speaker 3: Even if this is the end of humanity as we 706 00:40:40,124 --> 00:40:43,964 Speaker 3: know it, let's fight to the very end. It's better 707 00:40:44,044 --> 00:40:46,244 Speaker 3: to go on fighting to the end than just to 708 00:40:46,284 --> 00:40:47,604 Speaker 3: give up and say okay. 709 00:40:48,284 --> 00:40:50,964 Speaker 1: And I think that that's a you know's that's a 710 00:40:50,964 --> 00:40:59,764 Speaker 1: great message for insiders and outsiders alike. Let us know 711 00:40:59,804 --> 00:41:01,684 Speaker 1: what you think of the show. Reach out to us 712 00:41:01,724 --> 00:41:06,444 Speaker 1: at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM. Risky Business is 713 00:41:06,484 --> 00:41:09,124 Speaker 1: hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 714 00:41:08,444 --> 00:41:11,204 Speaker 4: And by me Nate Silver. The show was a cool 715 00:41:11,204 --> 00:41:15,204 Speaker 4: production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 716 00:41:15,204 --> 00:41:19,564 Speaker 4: by Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia, 717 00:41:19,644 --> 00:41:22,524 Speaker 4: Jean Kott and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our 718 00:41:22,564 --> 00:41:26,324 Speaker 4: executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 719 00:41:27,164 --> 00:41:29,444 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate and review us 720 00:41:29,444 --> 00:41:32,124 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too, But once again, 721 00:41:32,244 --> 00:41:34,044 Speaker 1: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 722 00:41:34,084 --> 00:41:36,244 Speaker 1: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in.