1 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of You 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I am 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: the host. If you are new, welcome, so glad to 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: have you. Just a quick reminder, as always that even 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: though I am a therapist, this podcast does not serve 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: as a replacement for therapy. But it might ring a 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: little bell somewhere in your body that says, maybe we 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: need to go. And today's episode is a little bit different. 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: I think it's less just straight up mental health related 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: and more kind of like psychology related, which I guess 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: those things are related to each other. But if you 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: have been listening to this podcast, then you know that 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: earlier this year I read. Well. When I say I've read, 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: I mean I listened. I listened to the book Cultish 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: by Amanda Montell, and it's so good I cannot recomm 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: it enough. And it's about the language of cults and 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: how languages used to create cults and cult like organizations. 18 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: She also has a podcast called Sounds Like a Cult 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: where she goes through different like mainstream things right now 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: and talks about what either might make them a cold 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: or not make them a cult. So a lot stuck 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: out for me in this book. But since we can't 23 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: cover all of it, and I also want to support 24 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: people reading or listening like me this book, we're going 25 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: to stick with just a couple of things for starters. 26 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: I want to talk about what makes something a cult, 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: like what makes a cult to cult? Now, as of today, 28 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: there's no universal definition that psychologists, sociologists, scholars, or professionals 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: that work in the fields related to cults can agree on. 30 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Matthew Schmalls, who is a professor of religious studies at 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: the College of Holy Cross, explaining an article from one 32 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 1: for The Conversation that scholars sometimes use the term cult 33 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: to describe groups that have distinctive beliefs and high levels 34 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: of commitment. The problem is the popular use of the 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: word is often used to describe authoritarian groups that practice 36 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: mind control or brainwashing. As an academic who teaches and 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: writes about religion, I believe that the label cult gets 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: in the way of understanding new religions and political movements. 39 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: So today I feel like using the word coal has 40 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: become an easy way to criticize a group or an 41 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: organization that just seems like strange or weird or scary 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 1: or maybe too radical, something that you just don't understand. 43 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: It's also been used to describe religious organizations that we 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: just don't like, and I know that I've used it 45 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: to describe many churches that feel from the outside controlling 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: or strangely ritualistic and led by like Matthew is saying, 47 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: some authoritarian leader. But Amanda Montel discovered during her research 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: for Cultish that a longstanding joke in the academic world 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: of cults is that cults plus time equals religion, because 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: any religion could be seen as a cult if it's 51 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: looked at from an outsiders perspe active, especially from somebody 52 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: in a different culture. So what makes a coal coal 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: and religion religion? You also often hear people talking about 54 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: brainwashing and reference to cults. Matthew Schmall's in that article 55 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: reference brainwashing above as a distinctive problem with the connotation 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: of the word cult, which is the other big takeaway 57 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: from Amanda's book that we're gonna talk about. People use 58 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: the term brainwashing to explain what popular cults do in 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: order to find and keep members. But the issue with 60 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: brainwashing is somewhat similar to that of the definition of cults. Now, 61 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: it's not that the definition is unclear we can define brainwashing. 62 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: The problem is there's no way to determine if it's 63 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: like actually a legit thing or not. Brainwashing is not 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: a clinical term. In fact, it's actually a metaphor. And 65 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: there's a big argument that it's ongoing due to the 66 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: inability to test if this is real or not, that 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: this is in fact not possible. It's not possible to 68 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: force someone to believe something. Rather, if you do believe something, 69 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: it's because there is a part of you, whether it's 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: big or small, that wants to believe it. So today 71 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: we're diving into this debate what makes a cult to cult? 72 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: Are all cults bad? Is brainwashing reel? Or are we 73 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: underestimating our own power and free will? Many of you 74 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: might be familiar with a documentary that came out at 75 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: the end of last year and then recently again a 76 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, called The Way Down. This is 77 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: about a cult branded church in Brentwin, Tennessee, which is 78 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: right by my house. It's called Remnant Fellowship. And if 79 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: you aren't familiar with this church or documentary, I'm going 80 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: to give you like the skinny, now, the very skinny skinny. 81 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: This is like the Cliffs notes of the cliff Notes. 82 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: Remnant is a church that was founded by a woman 83 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: named Gwen Shamblin that started gaining a following through her 84 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: diet program called the Way Down System. The basics of 85 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: the way Down System were, really, you can only have 86 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: so many bites a day. You need to pray to 87 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: God to fill you up when you're hungry and you 88 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: want to eat, and God essentially doesn't want you to 89 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: be and that's like a sin. And this documentary really 90 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: hit me closer to home than I wanted to, because 91 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: usually when I've heard about colts, they feel very separate 92 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: from my own reality. I think about the Branch Davidians 93 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: from Waco. I think about Jonestown and the drinking of 94 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 1: the kool aid. I think of Heaven's Gate and like 95 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: the Manson family. That's what I think of when I 96 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: think of like real cults. I think of these just 97 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: out of this world situations. I don't think about a 98 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: church that I grew up a couple of miles from. 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: I grew up hearing about Remnant and driving past it 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: all the time, and I actually went to the church 101 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: right next to Remnant for a couple of years. And 102 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: when someone met someone who went to Remnant, there was 103 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: always gossip and they're always questions, but it kind of 104 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: just like ended there. It was like we think this 105 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: is a cold but we don't actually think that that 106 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: place or this was my experience and actually think that 107 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: place could ever be as dangerous and scary as these 108 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: other cults that kind of seemed like fairy tales. Well 109 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: when I say fairy tale, I mean like nightmare fairy tales, 110 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: if that's the thing. Then, later, when I was working 111 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: in the eating disorder field, and for those of you 112 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: who are new or newer to the podcast, my specialty 113 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: as a therapist has been eating disorders from the very 114 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: start of my career. So as I'm working in this field, 115 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: eventually the weight down system started coming up in my 116 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: sessions like again and again and again, and I realized 117 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 1: that this idea that, for a lack of a better word, 118 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: sounded so crazy to me, was more widely accepted than 119 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: I had imagined. Like I could ever imagine, there were 120 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: more people doing this than I ever thought possible. Now, 121 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: to a lot of people, this program at first just 122 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: felt like any other diet program, except if you were 123 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: a Christian, it was even better because while you were 124 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: losing weight, you were also creating a better relationship with 125 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: God and a better seat in heaven. So I thought 126 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: it was crazy. Many people just thought what a great idea. Now, 127 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: this is not a podcast about Remnant or the Way 128 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: Down system. If you're interested in learning more about that, 129 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: I do highly recommend watching that documentary. It's on HBO Max. 130 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: The Way Down is what's called. But I wanted to 131 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: start here because there are plenty of members of this 132 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: church who to this day are very happy being a 133 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: part of this church. And while I'm not labeling it a 134 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: a cult, and I'm not not labeling the cult publicly, 135 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: if it is a cult, I think it's unfair to 136 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: look at the people that are still involved as unwilling, 137 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: brainwashed humans without free will or the ability to think 138 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: for themselves. And while watching the documentary you may have 139 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: thought things like, how could anyone join this and then 140 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: stay in it? There has to be some kind of 141 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: voodoo involved. They either have to be weak or dumb, 142 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: or they have to be brainwashed. But what I'm learning 143 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: is maybe it's none of that stuff. So this brings 144 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: us back to the seemingly simple ask is brainwashing real? 145 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: This question kind of reminds me of the episode I 146 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: did on gas lighting, and also the one we did 147 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: on narcissism. Today we're so quick to label any jerkor narcissists, 148 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: and any experience we have where we fall prey to 149 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: a relationship with someone who ends up changing their minds, 150 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: we call that gas lighting. Anytime someone tries to pursue us, 151 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: or pursue you, or pursue somebody and then find now 152 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: that his feelings or their feelings aren't what they hope for, 153 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: it's love bombing. When that often isn't what happened. It 154 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: begs the question if everything is gas slighting, if everything 155 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: is love bombing, if if everybody's a narcissist, it's any 156 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: of that stuff even real? And it feels similar to 157 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: beg the question if every time we believe something that 158 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: later seems crazy or seems crazy to outsiders is being brainwashed? 159 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: Is anything brainwashing? How would this happen so often? And 160 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: how can this happen so easily? And then who can 161 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: fall prey to that? Are we all just walk around brainwashed? 162 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: Are we brainwashed about being brainwashed? It's a lot so 163 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: At the end of the Way Down documentary, A woman 164 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: expressed her sadness in others judging her for getting involved 165 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: in something end quote so crazy. I think generally people 166 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: who become involved in colds are looked at as weak. 167 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: Everyone on the outside is thinking I'd never do that, 168 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: that would never be me. Kind of how I felt 169 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: about the weight on system before I met some of 170 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: these people and heard their stories. A side note, I 171 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: feel like this has to be said because I'm not 172 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: like saying the way down is a good thing. I 173 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: don't have one client who had an actual good experience 174 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: from doing this or it ended well. So if you're 175 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: like thinking, oh, that sounds nice. God and losing weight, 176 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: highly recommend Seran Claire. Although free will you can do 177 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: what you want. But I will say this program not 178 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: only helped ruin their relationship with food in their bodies, 179 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: it also in many cases muddied their relationship with God 180 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: and Christianity. So it has really sucked and it's actually 181 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: brought a lot of anger inside of me, which is 182 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: not what we're going to talk about. Getting back to 183 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: what I was saying, truth be told, I've believed a 184 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: lot of things that I think are really screwed up now, 185 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: and I never believe these things because I wanted to 186 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: hurt myself or others never and I don't consider myself 187 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: stupid or weak either. And to someone who gets involved 188 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: in a cult, it doesn't usually look so crazy in 189 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: the beginning. I don't think anybody actually would join something 190 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: if they knew at the end of their life it 191 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: would be because they are going to engage in a 192 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: mass suicide drinking kool aid. I don't think that's how 193 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: they bring people into cults, or that's what is attractive 194 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: about them, just like a relationship with someone who in 195 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: the end turns out to be a real asshole. And 196 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: most cults you will find stories of people who would 197 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: have had otherwise described it as normal. We don't go 198 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,719 Speaker 1: into those relationships desired to be manipulated or mistreated. We're 199 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: attracted to something else. So what is it that draws 200 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: people in and keeps them there? And when the sparkly 201 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: picture that was originally promised becomes a little faded, why 202 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: does it become so hard for people to get out? 203 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: What I've learned is a lot of people join groups 204 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: or cults as a way to join a movement to 205 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: better themselves or to get even more better the world. 206 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: So I read about this woman named Lauren Huff, who 207 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: spent a large portion of her life in the Children 208 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: of God cult, and she said in an article for 209 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: The New Yorker that was written in two thousand and 210 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: twenty one by Zoe Heller, that people that join cults 211 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: are often defeated surrenderers versus dis allusioned vulnerable people. The 212 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: author of this article is Zoe Heller wrote, despite huffs 213 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: and during contempt for those who abused her, her experiences 214 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: as a minimum wage worker in mainstream America have convinced 215 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: her that what the Children of God preached about the 216 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,599 Speaker 1: inequity of the American system was actually correct. The miseries 217 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: and indignities that this country visits on its precariot class 218 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: are enough, she claims, to make anyone want to join 219 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: a cult. Lauren said this is a quote from her 220 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: in this article. People who choose to do so are 221 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: not necessarily hapless creatures buffeted into delusion by social currents 222 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: they do not comprehend. They are often idealists seeking to 223 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: create a better world of her own. Parents decision to 224 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: join the Children of God, she writes, all they saw 225 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: was misery wrought by greed, the poverty and war, the loneliness, 226 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: and the fucking cruelty of it all. So they joined 227 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: a commune, a community where people shared what little they had, 228 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: where people spoke of love and peace, a world without money, 229 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: a cause A family picked the wrong goddamn commune, but 230 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: who didn't. And I really like that because it brings 231 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: back the human nous of people who are in these cults, 232 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: because a lot of times we look at them like 233 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: they're half of a person or they have half of 234 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: a brain. But these people are joining things because they 235 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: get tired of the freaking messed up world we live 236 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: in and they want something better, because, let me tell you, 237 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: sometimes this world feels very messed up, and sometimes I 238 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: want something better. I started watching the HBO documentary on 239 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: next Um called The Vow. Now I didn't finish it 240 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: because it just seems long, but I did enjoy what 241 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: I did see, and I wrote down a quote from 242 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: a former member. I don't know what his name was, 243 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: but he said, nobody joins a cult. Nobody. They joined 244 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: a good thing, and then they realized they were fucked. 245 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: And sorry, I'm cursing more than I usually do in 246 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: this episode, but I'm reading these quotes and I feel 247 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: like I need to read the whole quotes because they 248 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: add some omph to them. Now, the infamous next Um 249 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: could operate under the guise of self help. It was 250 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: a self help multi level marketing scheme, a way to 251 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: better yourself, and the entry program they offered called Executive 252 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: Success Program, which they you called ESP for short, was 253 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: marketed as a set of personal and professional development courses 254 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: that taught strategies for people to overcome their and quotes 255 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: like limiting beliefs. I think that's a word that they 256 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: used a lot their fears, their anxiety, and it would 257 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: help them reach their highest potential. And who wouldn't want 258 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: to do that? So if you see something and it's 259 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: being marketed as that, like who wouldn't want to do that? 260 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: What we see on the outside is the end result, 261 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: the mass genticides, leaders in prison for sex trafficking, like 262 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: people starving themselves for the sake of getting right with God. 263 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: What we don't see is actually how how they got there. 264 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: And I think then we make up reasons of how 265 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: somebody would get there, and I think of how most 266 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: people get there. Is similar to the metaphor of the 267 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: frog that ends up boiling its self to death. And 268 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: it kind of goes that if a frog is placed 269 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: in an already heated pot, the frog will jump out 270 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: because it's hot. But if the frog is placed in 271 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 1: like a cool pot, and then slowly it's heated up, 272 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: and it's heated up and seated up, then the frog 273 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: will think the conditions are not changing. It will eventually 274 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: be cooked and be dead. Now apparently that's actually not 275 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: true science, but the idea still fits because it's talking 276 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: about a slow burn. I think these things are all 277 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: slow burns. And also I have to say this, and 278 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: you can disagree with me, but it feels true at 279 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: first glance. Nexium sounds like a less visually appealing version 280 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: of what a lot is offered all over Instagram, with 281 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: coaches and the workshops and the online programs who basically 282 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: promised that like working with them will lead you to 283 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: the same thing, a better life. I know how to 284 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: help you, like I'm an expert in this. Except now, 285 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: these Instagram pages are beautiful and they like suck you 286 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: in the colors, the templates and the filed hers and 287 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: all that stuff. So what makes those things safe? And 288 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: maybe not all of them are, which I've talked about before, 289 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: what makes those things generally safe? Maybe a little kookie, 290 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: but then like a cult of cult And are the 291 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: people that are following those things, those coaches, those Instagram 292 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: influencers and experts, are those people all brainwashed? I mean, honestly, 293 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: it's therapy brainwashing. I'm gonna go ahead and say no, 294 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: but yeah, Like, well, I think it's like what makes 295 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: the difference here? It's a question that I don't think 296 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: a lot of us think about. We just want to 297 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: we don't like something, we call it brainwashing or a colt. 298 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: And if we like something, we're like, oh no, I'm 299 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: just becoming a better version of myself. But then like 300 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: the people in the cults are thinking that too. Now. 301 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: What's also interesting is as I was doing all this 302 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: research and thinking, I was brought back to a couple 303 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: of the most common things that I tell clients. One, 304 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: I can't make you do, think, or feel anything. That's 305 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: not my job. My job is to help you figure 306 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: out what you want. And two, you can believe whatever 307 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: you want, and you can convince yourself of whatever you want. 308 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: If you want to believe that you're a shitty person, 309 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: you will be able to write me a list of 310 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: reasons why I may not agree with them, but that 311 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: doesn't really matter. If you agree with them, what you 312 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: focus on, you will actually find that's true, which parallels 313 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: the idea postured in Amanda Montell's book that no one 314 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: believes something unless there's a part of them that wants 315 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: to believe it, and in therapy we have a name 316 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: for that. We called this the secondary gain. When clients 317 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: continue behavior or continue to carry a belief that is 318 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: long overdue for a makeover, I'll ask them, so, what 319 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: are you getting from this? Often they'll reply I mean nothing, 320 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: to like I'm not getting anything from this except bad stuff, 321 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: and which I'll say back, well, that can be true, 322 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: because if it wasn't helping in some way, it would 323 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: be a lot easier for you to stop doing it. 324 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: It might not make sense logically or long term, but 325 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: this is working for you somehow. We just have to 326 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: figure out how. So we end up believing things that 327 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: are kind of harmful because they also help us, and 328 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: often that like, how are they helping? Is this false 329 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: illusion of safety? Something that feels safe when it's not. 330 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: For example, someone who gives their partner like chance after chance. 331 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: This is something I think more people can relate to 332 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: than like getting sucked into a cult. Maybe he or 333 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: she has cheated on them, but they keep going back 334 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: and then they keep getting hurt, and they may sit confused. 335 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: Why am I doing this when it's very possible that 336 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: going back is carried by the underlying motivation of safety. 337 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm afraid that no one else will love me? Maybe, 338 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: and it could be a lot of different things. You 339 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: can even think about. Has that ever happened to you? 340 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: Have you found yourself in our repeating behavior and you're like, oh, 341 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: what is it? Because it feels safe, because the other 342 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: option feels really scary, maybe because it's unknown. So maybe 343 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: it's not brainwatching that's happening in cults. It's a fear response. 344 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: We know that humans are wired for connection, and this 345 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: can draw us to something and keep us connected to something. 346 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: And if there is an installation of an irrational fear, 347 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: such as no one else will accept or love you, 348 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: we aren't talking brainwashing. We're talking survival. Now. This part 349 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: might feel silly, and it also might age me, which 350 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: feels like a very strange thing to say, because I'm 351 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: thirty two and I don't think I'm old, but I 352 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: do call myself all all the time. But that's again 353 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: not important. But who out there remembers chain emails? You know, 354 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: you had the ones that were like, forward this to 355 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: twenty seven people, and justin Timberlake will appear in your 356 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: living room in three minutes, or the ones that said 357 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: if you don't forward this email, something bad will happen, 358 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: like your dog will get run over by a car, 359 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: your house will get bombed. Okay, So who remembers those? 360 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: And then who remembers actually forwarding those emails? And which 361 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: ones did forward? Because I can tell you that at 362 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: times I sent both of them, and I can sit 363 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: here and say I just did it for fun, But 364 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: I also didn't question that, like did I or did 365 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: I want to believe that I had a shot at 366 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: meeting justin Timberlake. So in the very small chance that 367 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: he may show up, I'm going to try. And then 368 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: there's no way that I would have been able to 369 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: live with myself if I ended up killing my dog 370 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: because I didn't send a simple email. So I sent 371 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: that one too, because if there was some chance of 372 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: something happening or something going wrong, like a sphere response, 373 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: I did it to stay safe, and I don't consider 374 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,479 Speaker 1: myself crazy or dumb gullible. Maybe that is debatable, However, 375 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: I for sure consider myself someone who always wants to 376 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: believe and hope for the best. And I'm also someone 377 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: who has an active attachment system that constantly reminds me 378 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: that connection is both necessary and at risk. We need connection. 379 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: We long and thirst for this innately. We want to 380 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: be part of something, And depending where you are in 381 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: your life, the things we allow in and the things 382 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: that we allow to make sense in our lives shifts 383 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,959 Speaker 1: when asked by people joined cults. In a Rolling Stone article, 384 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 1: Dr Todd Gross, a Boston based psychologist, said it varies 385 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: person to person, but if they're welcomed and received in 386 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: a safe way that makes them feel a sense of 387 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: belonging and offers an approval that perhaps they don't have 388 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: in their lives, it can be a place where they 389 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: feel someone really gets some A charismatic and sincere approach 390 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: from a demonstrative recruiter might be all it takes, and 391 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: all of a sudden they feel like they're part of 392 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: a brotherhood or a sisterhood and treat in a way 393 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: that makes them feel special. With a chance to be 394 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: something bigger than just themselves. So is this brainwashing or 395 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: is this a case of good people looking for a 396 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: better life falling into the wrong community at the right time. Now, 397 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: to come up with a better, more educated hypothesis, let's 398 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: focus on where brainwashing even comes from. And I've kind 399 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: of said this already, but I feel like brainwashing is 400 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: one of those terms that we overly use, but do 401 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: we really even know what it means. And I mentioned 402 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: earlier that brainwashing is not a clinical term but a metaphor, 403 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: So let's dive into like where this actually comes from. 404 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: This is from the same article that I mentioned earlier 405 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: that I quoted Lauren huff from, but that article from 406 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: the New Yorker that was written by Zoe Heller, and 407 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: I will link these for sure for you guys, so 408 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: you can read the full articles because they're very interesting. 409 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: But the article says the term brain and washing was 410 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: originally used to describe the thought reformed techniques developed by 411 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: the Maoice government in China. This catalking, I might have 412 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: pronounced that wrong. It's usage in connection with cults began 413 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: in the early seventies. Stories of young people being transformed 414 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: into Manchurian candidate style zombies stoked the paranoia of the 415 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: era and for a time encouraged the practice of kidnapping 416 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: and deep programming cult members. Yet, despite the lasting hold 417 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: of brandwashing on the public imagination, the scientific community has 418 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: always regarded the term with some skepticism. Soil the rights 419 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: organizations and scholars of religion have strenuously objected to using 420 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: an unproven and unprovable hypothesis to discredit the self determination 421 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: of competent adults. Attempts by former cult members to use 422 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: the brainwashing defense to avoid convictions for crimes has repeatedly failed. 423 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: Methods of coercive persuasion undoubtedly exist, but the notion of 424 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: a full proof method for destroy in free will and 425 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: reducing people to robots is now rejected by almost all 426 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: cult experts. Even the historian and psychiatrist Robert Lifton, whose 427 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: book Thought Reform in the Psychology of Totalism provided one 428 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: of the earliest and most influential accounts of course of persuasion, 429 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: has been careful to point out that brainwashing is neither 430 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: all powerful nor irresistible. In a recent volume of essays 431 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: called Losing Reality. He wrote in two USand nineteen he 432 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: writes that cultic conversion generally involves an element of voluntary 433 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: self surrender. And then this is me talking end of 434 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 1: the quote from the article. And what I found is 435 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: that many experts in this field will tell you that 436 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 1: the seemingly crazy things people do and these so called 437 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,640 Speaker 1: cults is less about brainwashing and more about what someone 438 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: will do in the face of torture, fear, or threat 439 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: to their safety. So we're taking this term that was 440 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: kind of coined from torturing people, and they would torture 441 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: people into doing something versus they just like change their mind, 442 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: made them believe completely new things. People are acting out 443 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: of fear, They are acting out of PTSD. They are 444 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: doing something because they are afraid. Even when they're outside 445 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: of it, they still can be afraid because trauma. Hello, 446 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: it's not that their brains are completely screwed up. They're 447 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: just really scared. And the other thing is it's not 448 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: brainwashing that gets you to join the cult. I said 449 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: this earlier. You don't join something thinking like I hope 450 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: they tell me all these crazy things and make me 451 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: do all these crazy things. You can't be brainwashed before 452 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: you start something. The people that are joining these cults 453 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: and then maybe even developing to higher ranks of these 454 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: cults aren't technically evil sociopaths, They join a good thing. 455 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: In an article that I found on Penn State's website 456 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: that was written by a woman named Jillian Locker, the 457 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: article is titled Probing Questions as Brainwashing exist. She quoted 458 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: the professor of sociology and Religious Studies at Penn State 459 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: when talking about like is brains washing real or not? 460 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: And Roger Fink, the professor said, the critics of these 461 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: movements couldn't understand why any would actually join these so 462 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: they created the argument that leaders were using almost magical 463 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: brainwashing techniques to recruit members. And then I'm going to 464 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: read a quote from this article, and so this is 465 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: gonna be a mix of what Jillian's writing and then 466 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: some quotes from Roger Fink. The Jonestown cult mass suicide, 467 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: in which nine nine members drink sign a laced flavored 468 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: drink mix, served to further popularize the idea of brainwashing. 469 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: From this catastrophe, the phrase drinking the kool aid was coined, 470 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: meaning someone who was blindly following the beliefs of a 471 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 1: charismatic leader. Because of successful brainwashing. When these movements were 472 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: studied systematically by social scientists, however, it was found that 473 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: they had no powers of brainwashing. I think the professor 474 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: that I mentioned above stated propaganda and other methods of 475 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: persuasion were used to make the movement look as attractive 476 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: as possible to perspective members, but in the end, the 477 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: vast majority of people that explored these movements never joined them. 478 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: It was really only a tiny percentage that joined. So 479 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: what drove those who did join the testimonials of friends 480 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: and family members. Think says, when a close friend or 481 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: family member tells you that a leader or belief has 482 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: changed them into a new and better person, it's the 483 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,479 Speaker 1: most effective in quotes, brainwashing that you can receive. He 484 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: emphasizes that the power of friends and family to influence 485 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: us plays a role not only in religious conversion, but 486 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: political and social conversion as well. Propaganda and information control 487 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: may get your attention and encourage change, but for true, 488 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: long lasting conversion on matters of importance, these persuasive techniques 489 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: must be supplemented by support from somebody you trust. Now 490 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: combine this with the fact that humans have an ingrained 491 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: fear of alienation. This is cat talking at the article, 492 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: you have a perfect storm for cult leaders ability to 493 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: exploit good people to do seemingly insane things. So as 494 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: I close this, I'm not completely convinced one way or 495 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: the other that brainwashing is not real. If it is real, 496 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: it seems to for sure be overused outside of the 497 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: reality of what it is. And if it's not real, 498 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: I still believe in manipulation, and I still believe conditioning exists. 499 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: But I also believe while that exists, we simultaneously play 500 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: a part in it. And my takeaway, and a lot 501 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: of this, and a lot of the research, and a 502 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: lot of the reading and the listening to the podcast 503 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: and watching the documentaries, my takeaway and a lot of 504 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: this is that the problem here doesn't really seem to 505 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: be brainwashing at all. The problem is twofold one. There's 506 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: no way that I have found. We haven't talked about 507 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: this in a while. What makes the cult a cold 508 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: There's no way that I have found to separate a dangerous, 509 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: harmful cult from a new, more rare sect of religion 510 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: or a different way of living life. When something's labeled 511 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: a cult, it automatically gets a stamp up disapproval from 512 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: anybody outside of it or anybody who's calling it that, 513 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: and then that group loses credibility for their sanity and 514 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: the ability to think on their own. So I think 515 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: the fact that we don't really have a way to separate, 516 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: like is a cult universally bad or is it a 517 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: way to describe something that we just don't like and 518 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: just because we don't like the way that somebody's living 519 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: their life, do we need to act like they can't 520 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: think for themselves. And the second part is when it 521 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: comes to people joining harmful and dangerous cults, the ones 522 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: that end in the mass suicides, the ones that end 523 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: in a horrible relationship with food and ways of engaging 524 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: in in diets that actually can kill you. When it 525 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: comes to joining those cults, the problem rather seems to 526 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: be a combination of people wanting something better than the 527 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: current world we're living in, wanting to belong to something 528 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: that promises connection and safety, which we should all have 529 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: an opportunity to find in a healthy way. So it's 530 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: the fact that so many people can't find that are 531 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: a longing for that. Essentially, the loneliness epidemic is part 532 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: of that that we're living in currently, and then that 533 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: combined with the ability to exploit these things for personal 534 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: gain by what appears to be mentally disillusioned leaders and 535 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: now cult leaders. That's a whole other subjects. That's a 536 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: whole other podcast, and that's a whole other thing. But 537 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: that's what I see is the problems here that we 538 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: can't really define what's right, what's wrong, and where are 539 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: we just being judgmental and where are we afraid for 540 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: people's safety, And that there are a lot of people 541 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: that are just looking at the world and wanting something better, 542 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: and then there's a lot of people that are looking 543 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: at those people saying like I can exploit that that 544 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,239 Speaker 1: really authentic desire. So, if anything, I hope that this 545 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: episode just got you thinking. I hope that it was interesting. 546 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: I hope it made you kind of questions and maybe 547 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: beliefs that you've taken on without giving them second thought. 548 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: I mean, even as a therapist me hearing the term 549 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: brainwashing throughout my life, I've never been like, oh, is 550 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: that really a thing? Can people's brains actually be washed? 551 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: Do people really lose complete control or is there more 552 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: nuanced to it? And do we need to give those 553 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: people more credit? And I don't know. I just hope 554 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: that it got you asking some questions. Again, I highly 555 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: recommend reading that book. I highly recommend listening to her podcast. 556 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: It's actually really good and she does it with a 557 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: comedian and she goes through things like that are in 558 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: mainstream culture that I don't think anybody would say, like 559 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: those are going to actually long term hurt people, like 560 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: soul cycle and and different gyms and different things like that. 561 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: So I highly recommend that I will link all the 562 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: articles that I talked about, And if you have any questions. 563 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: These are questions that I might not necessarily know the 564 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: answer to right off the bat. But if you have 565 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 1: any questions about colts, or if you have an experience 566 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: that you've been in something that felt like a cold, 567 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: or you've seen a friend or a famil imber joined 568 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: a COLT, send me an email, and if I don't 569 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: want to answer, I will try to find a way. 570 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: I will find a way to answer it in a 571 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: responsible manner. So have the day you need to have, 572 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: have the week need to have. I'm definitely going to 573 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: have the day I need to have today because I'm 574 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: on vacation and I'm taking a little bit of time 575 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: off of work and then I'm going to go to 576 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: the beach. So I'm having all the days I need 577 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 1: to have. I hope you guys have those days and 578 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: email meet Catherine at you Need Therapy podcast dot com. 579 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: You can follow me at cat dot de fata and 580 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: at you Need Therapy Podcast, and you can rate this 581 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: podcast if you feel like you're being called to do that. 582 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: I won't brainwash you into doing that. So again, how 583 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: do they you have? I will talk to you guys 584 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: on Wednesday. Four Couch Talks