WEBVTT - Exxon to Buy Denbury for $4.9 Billion in Pipeline Push 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.680 This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.680 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:19.600 podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:20.919 And the x On Mobile. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.840 Agreed to buy Denberry from four point nine billion. It's 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.200 biggest acquisition in six years. It's a deal that will 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:31.639 give Xon, which is of course a major integrated oil company, 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.720 major player. It's going to give it the largest network 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:40.840 of carbon dioxide pipelines in the US. Danbury's key asset. 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:42.640 I guess I've got thirteen hundred miles. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:43.400 DO two pipelines. 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:45.320 What got my attention today because I was like, what 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.320 are CO two pipelines? We have pipelines that ship around 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:52.000 CO two. So I started looking into it, and it 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.680 turns out that they use that to pull more oil 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.639 out of old wells. But also they can use these 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:02.360 pipelines to carry CO two around and put it back 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:02.880 in the ground. 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.640 Yay, all right, so let's find out the significance of it. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.640 There's also some news on Shell looking for options to sell. 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.440 I guess it's global renewable power operations with more on 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:16.240 all of this is our energy guru, Alex Steel. She 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.600 has also Bloomberg TV and Commodities Edge anchor, and she's 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.440 on the phone in New York City, Yes. 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:24.240 From ten to twelve every weekday. 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.200 Alex, you da, I love the promo. 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.040 Hello Hello, So tell us about the significance of this deal, Alex. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.959 So, basically, Exon's buying these pipelines, like Matt was just saying, 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.319 and this is really an Inflation Reduction Act play. So 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.080 here's the deal. In the Inflation Reduction Act, there is 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.600 a subsidy where if you're able to put CO two 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.920 in the ground, you get eighty five bucks a ton 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:46.880 and that comes in the form of a check and 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.040 then eventually it comes in the form of a tax credit. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:51.120 So there's a lot of money to be made in 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.600 this and that went a very long way in making 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.280 the storage really viable. Right, So this is what Exon did. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.480 So they are working on a few projects on the 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.760 golf code. They have three customers, CF Industries, Lend as 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:05.720 well as new Core that they promise they're going to 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:07.720 put some of their CO two back in the ground 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.120 and this is going to go a really long way. 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.359 In helping them do all of that net nets. 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:12.919 That's the deal. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.560 So let me bring in Kevin Crowley right now, senior 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:24.200 US oil reporter, Kevin, how serious is this, uh? Putting 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.120 CO two back in the ground in terms of, you know, 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:28.720 fighting climate change. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.919 All the majors, all the major bodies really recognize that, 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.560 you know, carbon capture is a key climate change fighting 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.920 technology because there are certain sectors that are really impossible 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:46.400 to decarbonize without carbon captures, such as cement airlines at 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.000 the moment, you know, refineries, chemical plants, these these type 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.079 type of things, they're always going to emit c O 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:57.200 two and carbon capture really is the only way to 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.680 to stop that CO two being put into the app However, 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.600 carbon catch has had a very long history of failure, 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:07.320 and Egxon is really hoping that this acquisition is going 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:08.720 to is going to help them, help them get it 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:10.400 right this time, well and help us. 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.400 You know, I'm looking at a exceon mobile right. This 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:14.560 is a company with alex what three hundred and forty 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.440 two billion expected in revenues this coming year. It's a 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.640 four hundred and twenty two billion dollar market cap. So 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.720 put this in perspective, this deal in their overall business. 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.919 Fair I mean it was. It's a six billion dollar deal, 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.280 I mean five billion dollars. It's their biggest in six years. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.200 So that's one part of it. But I think it's 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.600 about the future that counts. So they've already committed about 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.360 seventeen billion dollars over the next four years to decarbonize 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.840 their own stuff as well as other company stuff, if 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.240 I just put it that way. So the idea is 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:42.680 that they're going to be making a lot of money 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.240 on this in the future. Like, is it a viable, 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.440 super awesome business now? Probably not. I spoke to Dan Ammon, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.840 who runs their low carbon solutions business on that, and 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:54.680 he's like, we don't make a deal unless it's already profitable. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.320 How profitable it's going to be? I don't think anyone 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.400 really knows that, because they're going to need to customers 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.600 like see if industries in New Core to come in 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.920 and sign these deals with them. What we do know 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.080 is that this has the opportunity to be a lot 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.560 more profitable than the deals like Shell and BP, who 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.560 been on renewables and now are like, oh God, what 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:14.960 do I do? The returns aren't there. 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:17.000 I got to get out of this, and we're seeing 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.039 that today in Shell. I wonder, Kevin, and I'll throw 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:25.440 this one to you. You know, Exon Mobile famously has 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.400 board members from Engine number one, an activist shareholder that 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:33.760 hopefully is going to do good for the climate. Is 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:39.800 this kind of deal, Is this kind of movement, you know, 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.640 bear the hallmark of Engine number one pushing Exon Mobile 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.920 to be a more responsible kind of global citizen. 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.120 I think so. I think it's I think it's inconceivable 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.839 that this would have happened before twenty twenty one, which 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.040 is when those Engine number one directors were elected onto 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:02.760 the boards. Now, Egxon has this low carbon solutions business, 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:07.680 which is one of its three main divisions alongside it's 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.920 a it's a big upstream and obviously refining in chemicals. 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:12.920 So they are they are taking this now a lot 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.240 more seriously than they were, you know, even even three 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.920 years ago. So clearly they are having a big effect 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:22.880 on the on the on the company strategy. 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:23.000 Now. 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.520 It may not be as quick as as what some 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:30.840 environmentalists would like, but I think the hallmarks of a 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:32.120 Venge number one are definitely here. 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.720 Help me out, guys. I mean, this carbon dioxide has 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.120 to go somewhere, right, and if a if a pipe bursts, 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.440 not a good thing, right, I mean, so, Kevin, there 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:45.600 are dangers to this strategy. 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.560 Yes, definitely. I mean, the best thing for the environment 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.880 is not to produce the carbon direxide in the first place. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:52.880 And that's that's why, that's why a lot of environmentalists 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.440 are actually anti carbon capture because it does it does 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:00.080 perpetuate the life of the fossil fuels industry. But in 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.520 the event that carbon is being produced, the industry says, well, 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.279 you know, it's much better to capture it and put 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.039 it in the ground. But you're right, there are there 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:10.120 are a lot of risks associated with that. The industry 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.960 says that carbon can be sequestered in the ground for 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.640 hundreds of thousands of years. Do we know that, we don't. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.800 It may not, it may not work like that. Pipelines 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:22.960 also can be can be can be quite dangerous. There 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.920 was a big incident in there early earlier this year 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.479 I think in Mississippi where carbon dioxide pipeline burst and 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:34.480 was awful for the surrounding community. Lots of hospitalizations, et cetera. 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.680 So this is certainly a strategy not without risk and 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.480 As I said, carbon capture hasn't had the best hasn't 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.640 really worked for the last twenty years. So now eggs 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.000 On is really making a push to really really try 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:48.039 and make it work this time. 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:52.599 It's got to be a valuable asset just just because 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:55.600 this is pipeline that is built. I mean, Alex, you 0:06:55.640 --> 0:07:01.440 know the regulatory the regulatory andronment here. It's not easy 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.440 to build pipelines for anything. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:05.599 No, And then that's one of the questions I asked 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:07.520 dan Am and I was like, why was this better 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.480 to buy than build? It would have cost probably more 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.320 or more importantly taken a lot longer. I read this 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.040 one grade article or survey that said you're looking at 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.760 anywhere from like three to six years to do anything 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:19.800 like whether. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:22.360 It's natural gas, whether it's win any of it takes 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.880 forever to get it done, which is one of the 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.320 main hurdles in the energy transition. Like everyone knows secretly 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.040 you're going to need to put shovels projects in the ground, 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:32.880 but no one wants to be the first person to 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.000 say that. So this kind of gives them a leg up. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.800 What is also interesting too, and I wonder, you know, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:39.680 if Kevin has thought about this also, is it what 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:41.640 it means for their oil assets. There was lots of 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.280 rumors circulating that Exam was going to buy Pioneer Natural 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.040 Resources that would have been a straight up pure shale play. 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:48.800 And I wonder if that like puts it on the 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.040 back burner now or if they can you know, chew 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:52.200 gum and tie their shoes all at. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:52.720 The same time. 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.840 But I wonder if it also sort of takes the 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.000 focus away from that part of the business in terms 0:07:58.040 --> 0:07:59.640 of actually buying that growth too. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.680 Kevin, what do you think I think Excell can tie 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.600 their shoes and chew gum than you are exactly this is, 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.960 this is exactly exactly there is There is no way 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.160 that this this this compromises or is a trade offs 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:16.240 all with their oil and gas business. Eggs On is 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.720 one hundred percent all in on oil and gas will 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:26.040 be for for many decades to come if they they 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.960 are expanding their oil and gas production quite aggressively actually 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.839 all over the world. So I mean, there's Guyana's the 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.280 key example, but there's also Peri and we actually had 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.360 this this week as well. They're sort of targeting final 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:44.200 investment decision in Mozambique in twenty twenty five or so. 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.240 So you know this is this is the complimentary to 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:48.719 oil and gas. And of course you know this is 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:51.400 a company that made record profits last year, so it 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:52.959 can it can afford to do both. 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.160 You guys are incredible. Thank you so much. Alex Steele, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.959 Commodity's Edge anchor, Bloomberg Television, of course, the European market 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.280 close on the phone in New York City, and Kevin 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.200 Crawley are thanks to you as well, senior US oil 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.240 reporter at Bloomberg News on Zoom from Houston. Interesting right, yeah, 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.359 fascinating face gives them a pipeline. 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.360 It was one of the first stories I read this morning. 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:13.200 Very cool stuff. 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.160 If you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, catch 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.560 US live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.120 on Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:29.520 Business App, or watch US live on YouTube. 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.320 I don't know if you've seen Matt. I was looking 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.120 at some statistics getting ready for this segment, and so 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.840 we know post pandemic, people were isolated, they were bored, 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:39.760 a lot of people turned to illegal drugs. 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.760 And that's what I do, and I on board stop. 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.840 The increase in fatalities was fastest from twenty nineteen to 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.600 twenty twenty one, as deaths from overdoses rose. In general, 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:51.680 opioid overdoses took the lives of eighty thousand Americans in 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.959 twenty twenty one. That's the last year with official final numbers. 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.240 And then we had, of course the reckoning, a big settlement. 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:04.559 So is like Purdue, McKesson, j and Jay, CBS, Walmart, Walgreens, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:06.520 a lot of them, all part of a more than 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.960 fifty billion dollars settlement of opioid claims. So I don't know, 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:11.640 do you know exactly what's happening with that money? 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.000 It's interesting. I well, I don't know about the money. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.840 But I spent, as you know, the pandemic in Germany 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:23.000 and had some skiing accidents and broken bones while I 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:28.600 was there, you know. And they don't prescribe opioids essentially. 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.720 I mean, they can obviously in terrible cases, but by 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:36.800 and large, the most powerful drug you're getting for pain 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:42.200 is ibuprofen. And yeah, as a result, they don't have 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.839 any kind of problem with opioids. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:44.560 All right. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.800 Well, maybe that's a deeper subject or a deeper conversation. 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:51.360 I mean, that's the end of that conversation. That's how 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:52.240 long it lasts. 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:54.480 All right, Well, let's see what Sarah Whaley has to say, 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:58.079 because she is program manager of the Bloomberg Overdose Prevention 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.079 Initiative at the Johns Hopkins Blueberg School Public Health, as 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.360 you know, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.680 ELPI and Bluemberg Philanthropies. She z owns youim in Baltimore. Sarah, 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:08.679 I feel like you bring up the subject of opioids, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.000 and Matt makes a really good point. It's there's a 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:12.880 lot to this a. 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:14.120 Very American problem. 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.360 Well, and I agree. I just had a family member 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:21.040 who had some surgery and they just kind of threw opioids. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:26.800 It's still yes, is nice? So where are we the 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.880 opioid crisis? Can we start there? Yeah? 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.880 So it's it's not a great topic to start off 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.200 with because it's it's unfortunate the opioid crisis continues to 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.480 surge across the country. Like you mentioned, the numbers in 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:43.280 twenty twenty one are super high. They're four times higher 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.880 than they were in the late nineties when oxycotton hit 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.680 the market and that is because we're in this era 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.480 where the main cause of overdose deaths are synthetic opioids 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:57.360 like fentanyl and illicitly manufactured fentanyl is more potent than 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:01.080 heroine and oxycotton, and it's unfortunately what we are finding 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.040 in most street drugs across the country. 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:09.640 Why do people, I mean, I understand how people get 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:16.480 hooked on oxies and vicodins and percocets. Ventanyl everybody knows 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.119 is deadly, So why does anyone take fentanyl? 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.800 So when you have a substance use disorder, when you're 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:27.360 addicted to opioids, there are cravings physiologically within your body, 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.640 and there are drug seeking behaviors, and so even though 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:34.720 you may know the risk of purchasing drugs on the street, 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.880 you have these cravings and so you do it anyway. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:43.720 Why are people, to Matt's point, in Germany, you wouldn't 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:48.000 get opoioids. Why are we still prescribing them like that 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:52.120 and giving them out if we know that they're dangerous? 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:55.440 Yeah, So I think this all goes back to the 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.760 lawsuits that you were talking about and Purdue Pharma, and 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:03.280 so they're the farmaceutical manufacture of the drug oxycotton, and 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:09.400 that that drug was prescribed over prescribed in our country 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.800 for quite some time. And that's why these cases are 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.480 coming through our court system right now, is because of 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:22.720 the role that these companies have played in supplying pain 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:24.800 pills in our communities. 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.520 It just doesn't make sense that. I mean, Carol, your 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:33.240 family member had surgery what recently? So they're still doing it. 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.920 I mean, do doctors just take a while to get 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:42.559 on the same page as you know, you know everyone else. 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.560 Are the doctors still? Are they somehow paid? Do they 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.920 get perks for prescribing these drugs? Do patients just demand them? 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:52.320 I mean, what's why don't they just stop? 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:53.640 So? 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:55.839 I think I think it's a combination of a lot 0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:00.000 of things. Regulations in how we prescribe opioids have changed 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.560 changed in response to kind of what happened in the 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:08.319 late nineties with with oxycotton. I think there I am 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.320 not a medical provider, so I don't I don't want 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.280 to speak for them, but I do think there is 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:19.320 still some utility in them. So there is Fentanyl is 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.880 used for patients who are experiencing a lot of pain 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.240 from like cancer and other procedures, So there is utility 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:31.760 in these pain pills, but they were were widely over 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:33.160 prescribed for some time. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:35.320 Are they not anymore? Do we know that for a. 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.920 Fact things have changed. The number of pills that are 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.160 going out has decreased immensely. 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:44.640 So what do we do If you've got someone who's 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:51.600 addicted and isn't able to just stop using, which I 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.760 would think that's what you'd want to do, right, just stop. 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:58.480 But if somebody says they can't for whatever reason, they're two, 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.680 they love opioids too much, what do you do to 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.120 get them off? Is there some kind of methadone suboxone 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:08.120 treatment that actually works? 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:14.040 Yeah, So there's lots of avenues and interventions, and the 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.040 money coming down from these opioid settlements can be used 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.040 or should be used towards these opioid abatement programs, which 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:26.560 are programs and interventions to treat, prevent, and reduce opioid 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:30.720 misuse and the harms associated with this misuse. And they 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:35.520 can be used on programs, for example, overdose reversal medication. 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.600 So we often hear about inn oloxone going to first responders, 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.520 but malaxim should be out in the community for people 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:44.560 who are at risk of overdosing. So if they do 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.680 take an opioid and they overdose, someone who is near 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:52.440 them can give them noloxone and save their life. You 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.640 mentioned methadone, so these dollars can also be used to 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.680 increase access to medications for the treatment of opioid use disorder. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.640 We have three of those medications that are approved by 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:07.040 the FDA methodone, bupen, orphan, and meltrek zone. And while 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.600 these are very effective treatments, they are currently pretty underutilized 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.680 across the country. So in thinking about how states want 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.600 to spend their settlement money, they could use that money 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:22.840 to invest in increasing access to these medications. And then 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:24.720 the other one I just want to quickly mention is 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.240 harm reduction services. So harm reduction is a broad term 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.200 used to describe a spectrum of services to reduce the 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.960 harms associated with drug use. Like you said, it's hard 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.480 to stop using opioids, So harm reduction programs offer safer 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:43.600 drug use supplies like sterile syringes, but also an array 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:47.840 of other services like medical supports, behavioral health, and other 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.240 social services. And these harm reduction programs are often the 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.760 first access point to vulnerable populations and the relationships that 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.040 are built by the staff at these programs can really 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:02.480 help to facilitate entry into other services and ultimately recovery. 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.760 So for someone who's studied this situation, in this epidemic, 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.199 I mean, what do you think is the most effective 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.480 thing we can do to actually really make a difference 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:13.399 and put an end to this so that I'm not 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.560 talking about an opioid crisis or that isn't or you 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.000 aren't in two years from now, three years from now, 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:20.960 five years from now. 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.040 I mean, I think a big one is the stigma 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.320 that we have and the lack of understanding of the 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:31.480 physiological changes that happens when you develop an opioid use disorder. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.639 And there's still so much much stigma in the community 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:38.480 that we hold as individuals, but it's also pervasive in 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:42.159 policies and within the medical system as well. And so 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.200 I think just educating ourselves on opioid use disorder and 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.919 centering ourselves that you know this the eighty six thousand 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.800 people that we lost in twenty twenty one, those are individuals, 0:17:54.800 --> 0:18:00.199 Like that's somebody's son, somebody's daughter and husband, what you know, 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.040 it's an individual and there are things that we can 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:04.840 do to help and we all kind of have to 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.200 change our mindset in how we approach this crisis. 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:09.960 All Right, We're gonna leave it on that note. Sarah, 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.520 Thank you so much, Sarah Welle. She's a program manager 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.800 of the Bloomberg Overdose Prevention Initiative over JOHNS. Hopkins Bloomberg 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:16.800 School of Public Health. 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.080 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.119 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.600 the Bloomberg Business App, and YouTube. You can also listen 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.760 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.040 Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.199 Well, someone who's been playing around certainly with threads is 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.040 our own Max Chafkin. He's calumnist for Bloomberg Business Week 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.399 here in our interactive broker studio. He writes about it 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.600 in a story that's in the upcoming new issue, which 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.159 is out on newsstands tomorrow, already online at Bloomberg dot com, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:54.280 slash BUSINESSWEEKND on the Bloomberg terminal. So tell us about 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:55.679 your experience with threads. 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.440 Well, it's nicer than Twitter, I mean, in my experience, 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.520 which probably the best thing you could say for I mean, 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.280 so far to my mind. You know, Facebook has basically 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.159 meta now has been doing this for basically the past decade, 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.239 where you know, Mark Zackerberg's team look out at the 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.080 app universe and figure out find things to copy, and 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.120 they they've copied a lot of things, mostly unsuccessfully. Every 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.200 now and then that they have a hit Stories, which 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.159 is you know, part of Instagram Reels, which we could debate, 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.359 kind of a knockoff on TikTok. Both those have been successful, 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.120 and Threads is kind of in that proud tradition. 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.679 Dude, don't forget Facebook. I mean, I will never forget 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.760 how excited I was to find friends tor and started 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.640 to convince my buddies around the world to sign up. 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.359 And I was kind of bummed out when everyone switched 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.879 over to MySpace and all of that was before Facebook 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.600 even you know, was a glint in its mother's eyes. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.720 Yeah, no, absolutely, you know. 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.399 And but I think that the what's made Threads, what 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:57.520 sort of made it successful but also creates kind of 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.359 a bit of a vulnerability, is like you said, it's 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.679 super easy sign up for It's basically Twitter, except you 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.160 sign up through Instagram and it kind of auto populates 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:10.639 your feed with your Instagram friends, which has made it, 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:12.400 which has created all this excitement because all these people 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.320 are getting notifications, people are signing up, But once you 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.359 actually get in there, I think it's a little bit empty. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.080 I don't know what others probably have different experiences, but 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.800 I've been getting all these alerts from people you know, 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:25.439 so and so followed you, and you click on their 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.679 profile and it's empty and it has this kind of 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.399 manufactured quality to it, which is I think something you 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:32.359 could you could say a lot about Facebook. Now, on 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.800 the other hand, it doesn't have the kind of crazy 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:40.040 quality of Elon Musk's Twitter. And I think that's what 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:43.320 Mark Zuckerberg is betting on, that that you know, Twitter 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.919 has just gotten too weird, too chaotic or whatever, and 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.840 that there is an appeal for you know, Instagram but 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:49.520 with text. 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:52.600 So Twitter's disasters, if you will, are kind of providing 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.520 an opportunity for others, including threads. 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:56.840 Yeah, that's potentially. 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.240 But I think I think that this the figures we're 0:21:00.240 --> 0:21:02.639 seeing in terms of threads, the uptake on threads, so 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.080 it's a one hundred million people signed up in five days, 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:07.639 which makes it, you know, but by that measure, the 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:09.919 fastest growing app of all time. I think you need 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:11.639