1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you From how stupp 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, And today we're talking about colorism, 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: which might sound like a phenonym for racism, but indeed, no, 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: I think I think it's an aspect of racism. For sure, 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: it's under the racism umbrella, so to speak. Um, but 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: colorism has more to do uh. And I'm not even 8 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: speaking euphemistically when I say it has more to do 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: with shades honestly, Uh, skin tones, if one person is 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: darker than another in the same culture. Yeah, And listeners 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: might be wondering, like, why are two pasty skin Sorry, Caroline, 12 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: I hope you don't take that notes in the wrong way. 13 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: It's the hard truth we call we call pasty skin 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: pasty skin stuff I ever told you. Um So, why 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: why would we be talking about this issue? Well, first 16 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: of all, because fascy skinned white folks like ourselves absolutely 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: perpetuate this kind of violence. And I think it's also 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: helpful for understanding all the very layers of racism and 19 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: its complications, and also how privilege works, the ways that 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: we all moved through the world, often in different ways 21 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: depending on all of our different attributes, including the very 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: shade of our skin. Yeah. So, whereas racism is discrimination 23 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: often systemic, institutionalized discrimination against people based on their ethnicity, 24 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: colorism is more the unconscious and institutionalized prejudice against people 25 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: based on the color of their skin. And like I 26 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: was saying, it exists even within ethnic groups, and it's 27 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: really tied into the internalization of a lot of those 28 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: racist factors in culture. Yeah. So it exists around the world, um, 29 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: but particularly in sight of past European colonization, So you 30 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: have that internalization of a white supremacist hierarchy, but it 31 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: also in exists in places where colonization did not exist, 32 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: So you have places like the Far East where whiteness 33 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 1: also was valued. But um, I think it's uh, it's 34 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: it's foolish to assume that anywhere you go in the world, 35 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: a desire for lighter skin is a desire for the 36 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: whiteness that you and I embodied, Caroline, right, because I mean, 37 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: we talked about this in our last episode on tanning, 38 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: that people in certain Asian countries don't necessarily want to 39 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: have lighter skin because they want to be white or 40 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: because their country once had white people in it or 41 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: over it, but more or because of that issue that 42 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: we talked about of the class division of people in 43 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: lower working classes, uh, participating in manual labor outside there 44 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: in the sun, so their skin is naturally darker versus 45 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: people of higher classes who did not have to work outside. Yeah. 46 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: So if you go to Southeast Asia, for instance, a 47 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: wider complexion was seen as more noble and aristocratic. But 48 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: I almost wonder caroline as a side note here, if 49 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: wider and lighter should not be used as synonymously as 50 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: they often are, because I feel like once we start 51 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: saying wider, it does put in our heads like the 52 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: idea of like, oh, they want to look like you 53 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: and me, But it's more the lightness factor. For instance, 54 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: if we talk about people in India, there is an 55 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: issue with skin bleaching that goes on there, also in 56 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: many other places around the world. But there was an 57 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: article about skin bleaching in India which emphasized how the 58 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: desire isn't to look European but rather for a hue 59 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: that is listed on matchmaking websites over there as wheedish, 60 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: as in like wheat the grain whedish, And I just 61 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: mentioned that to help contextualize a little bit the different 62 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: forms that colorism can take. And I think it's interesting 63 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: to note too that you know, colorism isn't really discussed 64 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: as loudly and as broadly on the national or global 65 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: internet stage, if you will, um as racism is because 66 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: a lot of people perceive this to be an in 67 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: group issue, sort of almost like dirty laundry. We don't 68 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: want to talk about how you know, here we are 69 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: battling racism toward our group, and yet we're squabbling or 70 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: just feeling less than because of the shade of our 71 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: skin color. And this was something too that came up 72 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: in a busfeed conversation a little while back with a 73 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: round table of its Latino writers, and one of them, 74 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Javier Moreno, said, I've always felt the colorism and race 75 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: is the biggest elephant in the room and the Latino 76 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: community both are extremely prevalent, yet nobody ever talks about it. 77 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: And I think to you clearly that this is one 78 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: of those issues that people also quickly dismiss as political correctness. 79 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: In quotes, it's like, oh, here we go, here's another 80 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: thing we gotta worry about. It's like, yeah, no, let's 81 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: pay attention to these things and be decent humans. For instance, 82 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: when we started reading about colorism, the first thing that 83 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: came to my mind was from February when the quote 84 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: unquote hot convict Jeremy Meeks's mug shot went viral. It 85 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: was this lighter skinned African American man with blue eyes 86 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: and yes, he's very attractive, he does look like a model, 87 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: and women went berzerko online over him. At one point 88 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 1: Glamour magazine nicknamed him Felon Bay And this, this right here, 89 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: it's colorism because as we will talk about more, and 90 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: studies and statistics clearly show skin color absolutely impacts how 91 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: you were treated in the legal system and also how 92 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: you were simply perceived when you're walking down the street, 93 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: like whether you were perceived as more trustworthy, more bayworthy. 94 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, this isn't an issue of 95 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: political correctness. We're not just bleeding heart liberals who were 96 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: looking for something to be offended about, which is what 97 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: I feel like we get accused of sometimes, um because 98 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: for instance, look at Viola Davis. Uh, there's a quote 99 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: from her that we found where she said the paper 100 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: bag test is still very much alive and kicking. Yeah, 101 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: so we're not just making the stuff up people. UM. 102 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: I think one of the most famous and infamous at 103 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: the same time academic examples demonstrating how colorism works is 104 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: uh the seven Doll experiment, and it was specifically designed 105 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: to demonstrate the impact of segregation on African American kids. 106 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: And if I'm remembering it correctly, the study setup was 107 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: essentially bringing young African American kids into a room and 108 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: presenting them with dolls, um, a white doll and then 109 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: a black doll, which the researchers had to make because 110 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: a black doll did not exist on the mainstream market 111 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: at the time, and they asked the kids about their 112 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: impressions of the dolls, the characteristics they would associate with it, 113 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: which one they would rather play with, and overwhelmingly the 114 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: black children preferred the white doll and also attributed more 115 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: positive traits to it. If we've asked forward then to 116 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: The study was replicated with both white and children of 117 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: color and found similar results of white bias, although the 118 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: bias among the black children had diminished somewhat but was 119 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: still present. Um, but the white kids absolutely exhibited it 120 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: across the board, and Kristin I believe it was also 121 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: in that study that either in addition to dolls or 122 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: in place of actual physical baby dolls, they showed the 123 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: kids um a spectrum of five paper dolls, five children 124 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: little cartoons ranging from very pale to very dark with 125 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: shades in between, and they were asking children questions like 126 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: who's the smartest, who's the best behaved, who's the kindest, 127 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: who's the most fun things like that. And they did 128 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: find that white children were quicker to us I'm those 129 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: more positive characteristics to the white or the lighter shades UM, 130 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: and the black children were more open to yes, ascribing 131 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: positive traits to the black dolls, but also being open 132 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: to not everybody is positive or negative based on their color. Well, 133 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: in speaking of kids, there was a piece in The 134 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: New York Times not too long ago which reported on 135 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: a study from Villanova University which found that darker skinned 136 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: black girls in the classroom were three times likelier to 137 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: be suspended than their lighter skinned female classmates. Yeah, it 138 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: was a horrifying article, uh, incredibly eye opening um to 139 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: read about first of all, young kids being caught up 140 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: in the legal system for basically disciplinary issues rather than 141 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: just maybe going to the principle. But the fact that 142 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: it was so clearly and statistically divided along um color lines. 143 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: And I'm not just talking race and white versus black 144 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: or whatever, but I mean even to the point of 145 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: between black children the girls who had darker skin going 146 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: to the office more often. And it follows as we 147 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: grow up. So there was a study from two thousand 148 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: six out of the University of Georgia which found lighter 149 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: skinned African Americans were perceived as more employable than darker 150 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: skinned African Americans, even if they had more education and 151 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: more work experience. Yeah, and that translates, as you might imagine, 152 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: to the legal system. And this is uh from an 153 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: interview with shankra Vedantam, our favorite NPR correspondent, host of 154 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: a Hidden Brain podcast. Shanker. We love him. He doesn't 155 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: know who we are, but we're but we Yeah. Kristen 156 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: and I discovered before this podcast that we both get 157 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: so excited when shankers on NPR. So if anyone knows 158 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: shankra Vedantam, please drop him a line on our behalf. Yeah, 159 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: we say hi. Now back to the podcast. But Shawn 160 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: I was telling the New York Times that darker skinned 161 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: African American defendants and now these are grown ups are 162 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: twice as likely to receive the death penalty as lighter 163 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: skin defendants for equivalent crimes. And if that doesn't speak 164 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: to just inherent biases that people carry around, I don't 165 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: know what does. Well. And in the example that Vedantem 166 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: was giving to the New York Times, there was much 167 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: less evidence that was used to convict the darker skin 168 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: defendant as well. So it says, if the color of 169 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: our skin also raises or lowers the burden of proof. Yeah, 170 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: and if we look at the flip side of this, 171 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, let's get let's talk about something fun like money, right, 172 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: that's so great? Well, Shanka would say, slowly roll, because 173 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 1: other researchers found that lighter skinned Latinos, for instance, earned 174 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars more annually than darker skinned Latinos in 175 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: the US. And we can also see this too in 176 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: Paula ticks. Yeah. So, political science research has found that 177 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: while racism did cost Obama some votes in two thousand eight, 178 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: uh colorism cast him as a lighter skinned African American 179 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: man more favorably than had he been darker skinned, And 180 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 1: there were some attack ads that the study highlighted that intentionally, 181 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: Um either juxtaposed him next to um, another African American 182 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: with darker skin, or shaded his skin even darker to 183 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: evoke those kinds of negative reactions. Well, don't you remember 184 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: that that's the same thing that happened with the O. J. 185 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: Simpson magazine cover during the trial that they was at 186 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: Time or news Week purposely purposely darkened his skin, and 187 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: it was a huge deal. I remember that. I remember 188 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: being in fifth or sixth grade and hearing like all 189 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: of the rigamarole that aim because of that, because they 190 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: had intentionally made him look what a little more dangerous, 191 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: a little blacker like a little more scary to white 192 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: mainstream America. Well, and I wonder too about how this 193 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: plays in with perceptions and the awful, awful racist things 194 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: that people have said about Michelle Obama. As you know, 195 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: her skin is darker than Barocks. And I don't know, 196 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 1: I just wonder if she were a lighter skin floatists 197 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: which she received the same kind of angry black woman 198 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: racist stereotyping that she has, because according to colorism research, 199 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: the answer would be no. I mean, of course it 200 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: would still be there, but maybe not as intense. So 201 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: the question then is why does this exists? I mean, 202 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: it's something that's cross cultural, it's intra ethnic um and 203 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: it's a dynamic that isn't just easily explained as, oh, well, 204 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: everyone wants to be us white people. So clearly this bias, 205 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: to put it lightly, exists. But the question is why, 206 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: And the answer is something that we do not have 207 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: ten hours to go into in granular detail, because it 208 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: is something that's cross cultural, that's intra ethnic, that doesn't 209 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: have a simple answer, and also something that has been 210 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: historically perpetuated for centuries and two it's something that's only 211 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: recently receiving dedicated scholarship, and that was one reason um why. 212 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: Vetta Sanders Thompson contributed an essay to one of those 213 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: newer books about colorism called Shades of Difference. Yeah. She 214 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: wrote that every marginalized ethnic group has issues with physical identification, 215 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: which includes the color of their skin, physical features such 216 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: as color and texture of hair, contours of the face 217 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: and nose, body shape, all of these things things relate 218 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: to colorism. Skin color, she writes, is almost never considered 219 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: without some attention to these other physical features. So if 220 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: we look at colorism specifically in the United States of 221 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: course we have to talk about slavery. I mean, it's 222 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: obvious slave owners would divide enslaved people by skin tone, 223 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: with lighter skinned people likelier to work in the houses 224 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: and darker skinned slaves sent out to the fields. Um. 225 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: And it was also that division was also intentional to 226 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: try to turn groups of slaves against each other by 227 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: essentially establishing that hierarchy according to skin tone. Yeah. And 228 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: of course you have the issue of white slave owners 229 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: raping enslaved women. And the products of these unions were 230 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: children with lighter skin, and by virtue of their lighter 231 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: skin or by virtue of beinging essentially children of the 232 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: slave owner. Uh, they might receive more favorable treatment, maybe 233 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: even learning to read and write, and potentially eventually for 234 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,239 Speaker 1: some of them being freed. Um and during reconstruction, historians 235 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: right that we immediately see lighter skinned African Americans immediately 236 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: benefiting from their skin tone, and that some of the 237 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: first black communities associations, schools, churches were exclusively made up 238 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: of lighter skinned African Americans. And it's this system of 239 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: colorism that lead to measures like the paper bag test, 240 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: which is what Viola Davis was referencing. Earlier. Yeah, so 241 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: the paper bag test was essentially if you take you know, 242 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: like a grocery bag and hold against your skin, you 243 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: had to be lighter than the bag in order to 244 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: gain you know, entrance or admission or membership into whatever 245 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: it was you were trying to get into. And this 246 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: also gets into a whole other conversation too that we're 247 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: not going to address in this podcast of passing. It's like, 248 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: if you could pass that test, you could literally possibly 249 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: pass as white. UM. There were also ruler tests and 250 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: comb tests that have been documented UM that sometimes took 251 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: place at those exclusively lighter skinned UM organizations or even 252 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: at churches where if a comb says hanging at the door, 253 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: that means that you have to be able to cleanly 254 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: run the comb through your hair, thus suggesting that it 255 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: is straight enough for you to gain entrants. And all 256 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: of this really exemplifies to how colorism and class are 257 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: inextricably linked. And of course this brings in issues too 258 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: of European colonization. UM. You have a similar color cast 259 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: system developing, for instance, UH with Spanish colonists in Latin 260 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: America privileging lighter skinned people with more European looking acial features, 261 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: and even today you still see those skin and class 262 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: link divisions existing among Mexicans and Mexican Americans. And we 263 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: see a similar effect that academics referred to as internal 264 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: colonialism at different sites of European colonization around the world. 265 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: So this is not something exclusive to the Western hemisphere 266 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: by any means um In fact, another point made in 267 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: an essay in Shades of Difference Wise skin color Matters 268 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: is how skin lightning in the Philippines, for instance, is 269 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: rooted in multiple layers of colonialism. So you have, yes, 270 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: Spanish and American colonialism, but also the rise of Chinese 271 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: and Spanish Mastizo middle classes. And then you just by 272 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: virtue of geography, you have that proximity too countries like China, Japan, 273 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: and Korea and all of the media coming from there 274 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: where all so that lighter skin is prized. So I mean, 275 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: that's why I say, like, we don't have ten hours 276 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: to completely unravel this topic, because it is so multifaceted. Yeah, 277 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:13,959 Speaker 1: so let's take a look at some other examples of 278 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 1: how colorism acts as a discriminatory force within ethnic groups. 279 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: I mean, we've already talked about the socioeconomic stratification in 280 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: the African American community, I mean post slavery. You could 281 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: link the distribution of wealth among African Americans directly two 282 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: divisions and skin color. But then there's also this issue 283 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: of authenticity that research on colorism has unearthed as well, 284 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: because while lighter skin certainly affords social and economic privilege, 285 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: it's simultaneously marginalizes one's ethnic quote unquote authenticity. So if 286 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: we look, for instance, at the Black Power movement within 287 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: that group, lighter skin was se as less authentically black. 288 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: And Margaret Hunter, writing in an essay from Mills College, 289 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: says that for some people of color, authenticity is the 290 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: vehicle through which darker skinned people take back their power 291 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: from lighter skinned people. She talks to one woman in 292 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: particular who's darker skinned and expressed jealousy over a lighter 293 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: skinned friend or Pierre, and said, well, you know, I 294 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: basically I act petty. I don't include her, I ignore her. Um, 295 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: I just make it clear that I don't want anything 296 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: to do with her. And in all of her current 297 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 1: and past research on uh colorism and women of different 298 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: skin tones and shades, she had found in a previous 299 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: study that nearly all of the dark skinned black women 300 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: she talked to expressed having wanted to be lighter at 301 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: some point in their lives, but none of the lighter 302 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: skinned women expressed a desire to be worker, which directly 303 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: reflects the degree of privilege even if you are considered 304 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: less authentic that comes along with being lighter skinned. Well, 305 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: and that taking back of the power, UM certainly isn't 306 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: exclusive to say African American women. UM. That was something 307 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: that over in that BuzzFeed conversation. UM Norberto Briseno, who 308 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: is of Mexican, American and Chicano ethnicity, talked about UM. 309 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: Brissenio said, I'll be the first to admit that I 310 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: had a very ignorant view of white people growing up. 311 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: White people were white. They can't be Latino, they don't 312 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: know what I've been through, and they don't look like me. 313 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: So we're different. But now, Caroline, why don't we add 314 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: another layer to all of this. Let's toss in gender 315 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: and see what happens in this colorism conversation. Spoiler alert, 316 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: it gets more complicated, and we'll talk about that when 317 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break. Caroline, Let's 318 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: face it trips. The post office are never convenient, So 319 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: why not get postage right from your desk with stamps 320 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: dot Com. Here's how it works. Using your own computer 321 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: and printer, you can buy and print official US postage 322 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: for any letter or package. 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Before you do 332 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: anything else, click on the microphone at the top of 333 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: the homepage and type in stuff that's stamps dot com. 334 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: Enter stuff and now back to the show. So, as 335 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: Maxine leads Craig writes about in another essay in the 336 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: book Shades of Difference, gender certainly does add another element 337 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: to the colorism question because historically, she says, while white 338 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: systems of representation have disparaged black women and portrayed them negatively, 339 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: you've got this weird middle ground then of portraying lighter 340 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: skinned black women as exotic, and this marks them as 341 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: beautiful and desirable, but yet still not the same as 342 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: white women well, and also more sexually available than white 343 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: women too because of the historic hypersexualization of women of 344 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: color in the United States. And we go into the 345 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: issue of exoticism, particularly as it pertains to black women 346 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: in another podcast episode from a while back um called 347 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: Exotic Beauty, if you want to go back and listen 348 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: to that. But one thing that Craig talks about in 349 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: recounting this history of black beauty pageants in the United 350 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: States is how before black became synonymous with people of 351 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: African descent, it was mostly used to describe darker complexions, 352 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: and before the nineteen sixties in the Civil Rights movement, 353 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: most black beauty contests exclusively crowned lighter skin contestants. Again, 354 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: there's that internalization process that absolutely happens, although Craig does 355 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: note one exception. Yeah, from nineteen sixty one to nineteen 356 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: sixty eight, we had the Miss Bronze Beauty Competition, which, 357 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: unlike most of the black beauty contest at the time, 358 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: that sought these unattainable beauty standards. Uh, Miss Bronze actually 359 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: crowned darker skinned women and really women of various skin 360 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: tents in general. So Miss Bronze producer Belva Davis told Craig, quote, 361 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: we use the pageant to make political statements about segregation, 362 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: being left out and about complexion and all of that. 363 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: So this was a really big deal for you know, 364 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: the darker skinned beauty to be recognized within that community 365 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: is something to be proud of rather than something to 366 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: distance yourself from. Um. But speaking of that, you know, 367 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: on the one one side of the spectrum, on the 368 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: lighter skin side of the spectrum, we have this exoticism 369 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: going on. But then on the other side, we have 370 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: the de sexualization of darker skinned women. UM. And this 371 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: is something that Margaret L. Hunter explores in a two 372 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: thousand two paper called if You're Light, You're all Right? 373 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: Light skin color a social capital for women of color, 374 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: and in it she explores how lighter skin equals more beautiful, 375 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 1: equals more social capital. The flips of that is, for 376 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: darker skinned women, you have a triple jeopardy as it's 377 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: termed of gender, race, and skin color. On top of that, Yeah, 378 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: and if you're an NPR listener, you're probably familiar with 379 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: Michelle Norris is the Race Card Project, which is a fascinating, 380 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: very brief look at people's experiences with race. And I 381 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: say very brief because it's literally, what is it six words? Yeah, 382 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 1: you have to describe race and what race means to you, 383 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: and I think it's like five or six words or less. Yeah, 384 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: And so there there were a lot of submissions talking about, 385 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: for instance, getting called pretty for a dark skinned girl 386 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: and all of the weird exceptionalism that comes along with 387 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: people just assuming and internalizing the ideas of darker skin 388 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: as being something weird and different and not potentially beautiful. Yeah, 389 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: and also being something that that's the first thing that 390 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,959 Speaker 1: they are going to see about you, and that's going 391 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: to be the basis of how they judge you. Um. 392 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: And a throwback to a recent Stuff I Never Told 393 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: You episode, the Anita Hill Effect. This also came up 394 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: during her testimony. UM. Some detractors of Anita Hill said 395 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: that she was just jealous because now Supreme Court Justice 396 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas preferred lighter skinned women. So as I was 397 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: reading about all of this, Carolina was like Anita Hill, 398 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: it's all back, and we talked about the economic penalties 399 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: that colorism exacts earlier in the podcast when we mentioned, 400 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: you know the statistic that darker skinned Latinos earn less 401 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: money than lighter skinned Latinos, Well, the same is absolutely 402 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 1: true for darker skinned black women. And keep in mind 403 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: that triple jeopardy. So you're going to get a gender 404 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: wage gap, you're going to get a further complication because 405 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: she is a and of color, and probably another ding 406 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: inter paycheck because she's a darker skinned woman of color. Yeah, 407 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: and darker skinned black women tend to be perceived in 408 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: the workplace as less competent, but they're also less likely 409 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: to get married. Researchers found that lighter skinned black women 410 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: are more likely to marry somewhat of higher social status, 411 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: higher education, and higher income compared to their darker skinned peers. 412 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: But there was one note in that two thousand six 413 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: u g. A study looking at income and skin tone 414 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: that jumped out to me, which was when they when 415 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: they look exclusively at women of color, they found that 416 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: medium skin toned women are often viewed most favorably compared 417 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: to lighter skinned and darker skinned women because they embody 418 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: both that authenticity and quotes the fact that we talked about, 419 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: but they don't straight too far away from idea of 420 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: what a respectable middle class person should look like. It's 421 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: like they're embodying. They're embodying both of our not ideals. 422 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: Everyone's anxieties. Yeah about race are rigid comfort zones established 423 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: via racism. I want my comfort zone to be squishy, 424 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: not rigid. I know, well, you know what's not helping 425 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: Hollywood also Bollywood? Yeah, that's true. I mean, Exhibit A 426 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: would probably be the huge dust up over Zoe Seldonna 427 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: being cast as Nina Simone in the biopic that it 428 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: just came out right or it's coming out. I think 429 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: it's about to come out. Yeah. And I mean if 430 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: you've seen, if you know anything about Nina Simone, or 431 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: have watched her documentary, or have listened to our podcast 432 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 1: All about Nina Simone, Good Good, Good Call Good Plug. 433 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: The High Process of Soul, episode title and issues of 434 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: her dark skin tone as well as her facial features 435 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: were a huge deal for her. These aren't just uh 436 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: feeling and emotions and insecurities that people are projecting onto 437 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: Nina Simone. These are actual things that she herself struggled 438 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: with and so the fact that a lighter skinned, very slender, 439 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: tall uh latina black woman was cast to play her 440 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: caused a lot of people, including people in Nina Simon's 441 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: family uh, to kind of throw their hands up. Yeah, 442 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: I mean. And another example of this came from straight 443 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: out of Compton in a casting call that was publicized, 444 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: which was looking specifically for female extras, but they broke 445 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: it down by hotness categories from A through D, with 446 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: A being the hottest of the hot and that category 447 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: was open to women of all ethnicities, preferably with straight hair. 448 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: But then if you look at C and D, which 449 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: were considered the least attractive, the casting call explicitly asked 450 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: for darker skinned women. Also side note, the b example 451 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: for this casting call was Beyonce, and I was like, 452 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: nobody calls baby is beyond A, She's in her own category. Um, 453 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: And some people in the industry jump to, I mean, 454 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: you can't even like really defend that kind of colorism 455 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: in action. I mean, like even for C and D, 456 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: they were not only requesting darker skinned women, but also 457 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: women with more natural hair textures and also weaves, And 458 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: I mean isn't all this code for class. I mean, 459 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: that's the thing earlier, like colorism in class are inextricably linked. 460 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: And and some people in the industry were like, oh, well, 461 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, this is just how casting calls work. But 462 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: at the same time, it does exemplify all of these issues. 463 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: And y'all, Straight out of Compton has a lot of issues. 464 00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: Is very entertaining, but it's got a lot of issues. Um. 465 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: Another example from which is I don't I don't know 466 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: how it was published. Um. This was Alexander Stanley's Beyond 467 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: Tone Death New York Times profile of Shonda Rhimes UM, 468 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: which was essentially just like a send up of the 469 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: angry black woman stereotype. A. I don't think I read this. 470 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: Oh god, don't it's horrible. I mean, like, I honestly, 471 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how it passed through that many editorial 472 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: like checks to end up published in it, though it 473 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: managed to both acknowledge and uphold colorism. In one sentence 474 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: describing Viola Davis so Um, Stanley writes, ignoring the narrow 475 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: beauty standards some African American women are held to. There, 476 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: we have acknowledgement of colorism. MS rhymes chose a performer. 477 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: She's talking about Viola Davis, by the way, who is older, 478 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: darker scanned, and it's classically beautiful and Carrie Washington or 479 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: for that matter, Halle Berry. And it was like what okay, 480 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: and I forget what speech it was, but Viola Davis 481 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: clapped back to it, saying, you know, like, okay, if 482 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: this is what let's classically beautiful looks like nikes, that 483 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: is so awkward. Well I mean it's racist. Yeah, well yeah, 484 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: that's probably why it's awkward. But I just it's it's 485 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: making my skin crawl because you're exactly right. I don't 486 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: know how someone didn't read that, but I mean this is, 487 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: I guess, a little advertisement for the importance of diversity 488 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: in your on your team, whether it's your newsroom or 489 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: your app developer program. I sound like such an old 490 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: app developer program, those apps and the kids these days. 491 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: I'll love to get some hot wings for my apps. Um, 492 00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: but if we hop over to Bollywood, whereas American film 493 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: stars have taken, say like vocal stances against photo shopping. 494 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: Speaking of Carrie Washington, she recently came out and very 495 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: tactfully called out her cover image on ad week where 496 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: she does look kind of unrecognizable. Yeah, I don't know, Like, yes, 497 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: her skin is definitely lighter on the magazine cover than 498 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: it is in real life, but I don't know what 499 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: they did to her face. Her face is completely restructured, 500 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: and she was just like, it's it's uncomfortable to see that, 501 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: like something that looks so different from what I see 502 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: in the mirror. UM. And you mentioned the skin lightning, 503 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: and this is also something that's happened in UH cosmetics 504 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: campaigns here with you know, Beyonce's skin being lightened, other 505 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: actors and celebrities of color having their skin lightened. But 506 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: this is also a huge force in Bollywood, to the 507 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: point that some stars like Nandita Dos are publicly calling 508 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: out digitals skin lightning. UM And apparently it's super common 509 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: as well for people like professional cricket players and Bollywood 510 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: stars to shill for skin lightners. And Miss Emma Watson 511 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: recently got herself in some hot water because of long 512 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 1: ago campaign. Now that she did that was I think 513 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: it ran in India, UM for it might have been Loreale. No, 514 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 1: it was an Essay Lauter skin lightning product. Yeah, I mean, 515 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: we're all being duped by cosmetics companies, right, because you 516 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: know I'll be in Sephora, for instance, and you know 517 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: I have I break out sometimes, as you all have 518 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: heard me talk about, I break out sometimes, and like 519 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: sometimes that leaves me with acne scars or a little 520 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: bit of uneven skin texture. And so I might go 521 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: into Sophora looking for a skin evening cream. But all 522 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: of that crap is sold under different names to different cultures. 523 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: So like what might be promised to me, as like 524 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: a middle class white lady in America, as just like 525 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 1: this will even your skin tone, It'll make you radiant, carrocant, brilliant, 526 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: they all promise. In America, they tend to promise like 527 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: radiance and youth because that's what this market demands. But 528 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: somewhere like India, for instance, it might promise lightning properties. 529 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: It's all the same gunk in a jar, right, Yeah, 530 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: just with like very specific strategic wording on it. Right, 531 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: what might be advertised as radiance, brilliance or shine, and 532 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: one Sephora might be just a straight up lightner and 533 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,959 Speaker 1: say another Sephora. Um, but quickly too, if we look 534 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: at images on screen, um, the colorism and the the 535 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: use of lighter skinned actors is something that is definitely 536 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: been called out in Spanish language television and telenovelas in particular, Um, 537 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,240 Speaker 1: the lead characters tend to be very light skinned. Um 538 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 1: they also tend to often be blonde, whereas if you 539 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: have characters like maids there you'll find darker skin. So again, 540 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: class hierarchy built into all of this. The famous people 541 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 1: have been calling out this color hierarchy for years now. 542 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand four, Christina Milian called out the 543 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,359 Speaker 1: narrow Latina beauty standard that was limited to basically light 544 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: skin j Los and Salma Hiaks in a Latina magazine 545 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: cover story. And then you have actress Kiki Palmer say 546 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: on an l A panel quote, when I was five 547 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 1: years old, I used to pray to have light skin 548 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: because I would always hear how pretty that little light 549 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: skinned girl was. And there was a similar theme that 550 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: arose in essence speech by Lupetea Yango and which she said, 551 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,479 Speaker 1: I got teased and taunted about my night shade its skin. 552 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: In my one prayer to God, the miracle Worker was 553 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: that I would wake up lighter skinned. And then alec 554 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 1: Weck came on the international scene a celebrated model. She 555 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: was Darkest Night, she was on all other runways and 556 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: in every magazine, and everyone was talking about how beautiful 557 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: she was. And I love this part where she says 558 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: even Oprah called her beautiful and that made it a fact. 559 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: So while it's good that we're having these kinds of 560 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: conversations and you do have celebrities of color who are 561 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: using their platforms to call attention to it, we're still 562 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: up against this massive cosmetics industry that is happy to 563 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,879 Speaker 1: profit off of colorism. Yeah. Back in nineteen seventy three, 564 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: Unilever launched Fair and Lovely in India and despite Nandita 565 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: Dosa's efforts in UH, Indians spent more money on skin 566 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: lightners than on coke. Uh. And they even launched a 567 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: product for men that is called Fair and Handsome. Yeah. 568 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: So I mean it's uh what we've seen, especially with Dove, 569 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: where we have all of the Doves, the Dove women products, 570 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: but now we have Dove for men. And I know 571 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: that because my fiancee uses Dove for men and it 572 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 1: always makes me chuckle because I'm like, ha, you're getting 573 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 1: sold the same stuff I am, and it does smell delicious. Um. 574 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: But people might be surprised to learn that, according to 575 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: the World Health Organization, the highest per capita skin bleaching 576 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,480 Speaker 1: happens in Nigeria UM seventy seven percent of women in 577 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: Nigeria use skin lighteners regularly, and a story in the 578 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: BBC reported how dermatologists in Africa have reported an uptick 579 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: in skin bleaching and skin damage related to it because 580 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: a lot of times the chemicals and skin lighteners are 581 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: not very good. There's one condition that a lot of 582 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: women I believe this was in the article talking about 583 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: Nigerian women. A lot of women have experienced where the 584 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: product will actually cause their skin to turn a purple shade. 585 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: Because it's not it's not healthy for you. And a 586 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: lot of these products aren't. It's not like a lot 587 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: of women are buying, you know, the two hundred dollar 588 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: jar of magical cream from the Sephora website. A lot 589 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: of women are buying the more black market stuff from 590 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: markets in their towns, and I mean there's a lot 591 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: of question as to what's actually in them. Well, and 592 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: it is true too that if you're your cream cost 593 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: two dollars, it has to work, will do anything. Yeah, 594 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: speaking of people getting duped um But in the US, though, 595 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: there were enough reports of mercury poisoning related to skin 596 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: lightner use among certain groups of Mexican American women that 597 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: now the FDA, CDC, and the e p A have 598 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: all issued warnings against using those products. So we've established 599 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: all of these these unhealthy patterns, you know, unhealthy in 600 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: many different kinds of way days. Um. But one thing, 601 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: especially as two white ladies with lots of privileges, UM 602 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 1: should also acknowledge and emphasize is that colorism should not 603 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: be confused with, or conflated with, or communicated as just 604 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: the benevolent marginalization of darker skinned women, basically saying, you 605 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: have it so bad, poor thing, you must hate yourself. 606 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: I'm sure you do. Yeah. This is something that Erico 607 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: Williams Simon wrote about in Ebany Magazine, where she was saying, 608 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: you would be entirely incorrect to assume that every dark 609 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: skinned woman of whatever race that you see had to 610 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: struggle through the experience that Lepide and Ago described of 611 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: almost as a rite of passage, to get to thinking 612 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: that you're awesome. She pointed out, by the way, guys, 613 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: I have always thought I was fly. I've always enjoyed 614 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: my skin and my looks and my inner self, and 615 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: I didn't ever have to go through that period of 616 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: self loathing that so many people assume happens when you 617 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: have darker skin, probably as a product of our own 618 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: bias against darker skin. UM. But she also notes how listen, 619 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: the solution to colorism isn't just considering these women sexually desirable. 620 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 1: Sexiness is not the ultimate goal here and just saying 621 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: you know what, you're pretty, especially as she was kind 622 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: of talking to UH two guys saying like it's the 623 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: whole pretty for a dark skinned girl thing, where it's 624 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,760 Speaker 1: like that is really not helping anything at all. And 625 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: she emphasizes we've talked about too, how colorism is a 626 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,799 Speaker 1: cross cultural issue and not limited to the African American community. 627 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: It's around the world, And I guess the upside beyond 628 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,800 Speaker 1: just re emphasizing that not everyone feels this way, UH, 629 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 1: is to talk about things like the Darkest Beautiful campaign. 630 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: It was launched in India couple of years ago to 631 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: combat the fair and lovely fueled colorism UH and nondiadas. 632 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: So we've mentioned now a couple of times the Bollywood 633 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: actress does publicly support it, and she's calling on other actors, 634 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: actresses and performers to join with her and stop shilling 635 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: for these lightning cream companies. And another riff on fair 636 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: and Lovely that Fatima LOADI launched in Pakistan as a 637 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,280 Speaker 1: campaign she calls Darkest Divine and it's actually Pakistan's first 638 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: anti coolorism campaign that she kicked off. And then most 639 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: recently in Washington University at St. Louis held what organizers 640 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,280 Speaker 1: think is the very first international colorism conference in the US. 641 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: It's finally starting to get um more scholarship. I mean, 642 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: there's there's a decent amount of academic literature out there 643 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: about it, but clearly it's such a big issue that 644 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: it needs more attention. I mean also considering all of 645 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 1: those socio economic repercussions. Yeah, but the ebony writer Erica 646 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: Williams Simmons does have a really good recommendation for the meantime. 647 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 1: So she says constantly and quietly, check yourself. Ask why 648 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: in your mind, a white woman with tattoos is edgy, 649 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: a light woman with pink hair is creative, but a 650 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: darker woman with either is ghetto. Evaluate why you lighten 651 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,919 Speaker 1: yourselfies notice when you obsessively oo and ah only over 652 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,839 Speaker 1: lighter skinned children, or don't look a darker skinned man 653 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: in the eye when speaking to him, Stop ascribing certain 654 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: behaviors to certain complexions, and one in the position to 655 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: create opportunities for others, consider if your commitment to diversity 656 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: is at all visible to the naked eye. Bam, I know, 657 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: I mean that's the perfect note to Now ask our 658 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: listeners whether they've experienced this, what they think about it. Um. 659 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm also hoping to hear from people outside of the 660 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: United States too, because a lot of the info that 661 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,440 Speaker 1: we have access to and have talked about is u 662 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 1: S specific books. So send us your thoughts as always. 663 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff how stuff Works dot Com is your email address. 664 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 665 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 666 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:17,160 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I have a 667 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: letter here from Kate in response to our Anita Hill 668 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: Effect episode. I remember I was in seventh grade when 669 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: the hearing occurred, and remember the snickering and disbelief of 670 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: Hill that took place in our class when we covered 671 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: it in Current events in Social Studies class. Despite the 672 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,720 Speaker 1: efforts of our female teacher and my mother to represent 673 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,560 Speaker 1: and to shed light on Hill's perspective. I've thought back 674 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: to this trial on various occasions when I've seen women discredited. 675 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 1: It's disheartening how awareness does not always breed true progress. 676 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: I look forward to the film of this incident to 677 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: be reminded how far we have and haven't come. One 678 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,880 Speaker 1: funny anecdote somewhat related. In the summer of two thousand, 679 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 1: I was working as an intern in Washington, d C. 680 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,720 Speaker 1: And living on Capitol Hill. I was a pretty innocent 681 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: college student. Despite my ultra fair compliant action, I was 682 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: determined to acquire something of a tan and devoted myself 683 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: to some regular sunbathing, which I did on the nicest 684 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,319 Speaker 1: patch of grass within walking distance from my apartment, one 685 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: of the Supreme Court lawns. It was, without a doubt, 686 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: the most popular sunbathing destination on the Hill, and usually 687 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,839 Speaker 1: liberally sprinkled with girls in swimsuits. After I had been 688 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: doing this routine for many weekends in a row, I 689 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: was approached by a police officer who patrolled the area. 690 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: He was non creepy, but his talking to me in 691 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,959 Speaker 1: a swimsuit made me very aware of my non dressed nous. 692 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: He warned me about walking home from the metro stop 693 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: alone at night, as there had been some assaults recently 694 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: on the area on women walking alone. Then he asked 695 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,839 Speaker 1: me if I liked the lawn. He then told me 696 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: it was the nicest lawn on the hill because it 697 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,919 Speaker 1: was the pet project of Judge Clarence Thomas, who said 698 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,800 Speaker 1: he was a quote great corticulturalist. Then he pointed out 699 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: Judge Thomas's window in the building directly above us. See, 700 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: that's his window right up there. He likes to have 701 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,799 Speaker 1: the nicest view. I actually don't think the cop was 702 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: thinking when I was thinking at all. Yeah, sure, horticulturalist, 703 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: which I found pretty hilarious even at anyway, it's a 704 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: random memory. Well let's just say that even at one 705 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 1: I chose not to return to the lawn. I wonder 706 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: if anyone else who listens has funny stories like that. Well, thanks, Kate, 707 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: and I've got a letter here from Jill about our 708 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,879 Speaker 1: ghosting episode for a while back, subject line ghosting since 709 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: eight She writes, Hello, ladies, hot on the heels of 710 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: your ghosting podcast. I recently started reading Mrs Beaton's Household Management, 711 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: a compilation of etiquette articles published as a single volume 712 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty one in England. Imagine my surprise when 713 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,319 Speaker 1: I read this gem. When any of the carriages of 714 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,040 Speaker 1: the party guests are announced, or the time for their 715 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: departure arrived, they should make a slight intimation to the hostess, 716 00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: without however, exciting any observation that they're about to depart. 717 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 1: If this cannot be done, however, without creating too much bustle, 718 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: it will be better for the visitors to retire quietly 719 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: without taking their leave. Ghosting in relationships maybe new, but 720 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: people have been advised to duck out on parties for 721 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: nearly two centuries. Thank you so much for sending us that, Jim, 722 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: Jill and listeners. Now we want to hear from you mom. 723 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,360 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email 724 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: address and for links all of our social media as 725 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with 726 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: our sources. So you can learn more about colorism, head 727 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never told You dot com 728 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 729 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com