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Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you Maxwell is hard to read

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Speaker 1: for weird, weird reasons. Maxwell, it's not all mathematical, it's

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Speaker 1: mostly words and with a little bit of math, but

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Speaker 1: the math is confusingly written. And Maxwell makes ridiculous amounts

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Speaker 1: of mathematical mistakes. The first one I thought, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I must be wrong. This is Maxwell, And then I realized, no,

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Speaker 1: every paper is eighty pages long and has eighty mistakes

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Speaker 1: in it.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh no, it's good to know you could be

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Speaker 2: famous and make tons of mistakes.

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Speaker 1: And it's actually inspiring. But yeah, Maxwell had this amazing

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Speaker 1: mind to take these crazy ideas from Faraday, which no

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Speaker 1: one had thought of things this way, and put it

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Speaker 1: in math terms. And I have nothing but the utmost

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Speaker 1: respect and love for Maxwell, and also reading him can

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Speaker 1: give you a stomach.

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Speaker 3: In That's a little snippet from our conversation today about

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Speaker 3: the history of science, specifically understanding who really came up

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Speaker 3: with Maxwell's equations, how much did he rely on the

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Speaker 3: experiments done before him, and how much did the theorists

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Speaker 3: after him clean up his work. Welcome to Daniel and

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Speaker 3: Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

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Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Kelly Waiter Smith and I don't know anything

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Speaker 2: about Faraday or Maxwell or any of the people that

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Speaker 2: we're going to be talking about today, though I seem

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Speaker 2: to remember Faraday being associated with the cage of some sort. Daniel,

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Speaker 2: did we let him out of the cage? Eventually he's

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Speaker 2: still in there?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, somebody let him out.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I've been taught

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Speaker 3: the standard lore of physics history.

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Speaker 2: WHOA Does every physics class teach standard physics history lore?

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Speaker 2: Or are there some classes where you just do the

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Speaker 2: actual science with no history.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: I feel like there's a standard set of anecdotes that

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Speaker 3: get passed down from generation to generation. You get a

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Speaker 3: little bit of the flavor of the people when you're

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Speaker 3: learning about the equations sometimes, but mostly it's just the equations,

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Speaker 3: and it's usually not the equations the way those folks

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Speaker 3: wrote them. It's usually always in the modern notation, which

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Speaker 3: I find a little confusing, because, like, you know, Newton

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Speaker 3: didn't write equations mathematically. He wrote sentences and he used

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Speaker 3: verbs and stuff like this, and so it's funny to say,

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Speaker 3: and then Newton wrote down this equation, It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: that didn't actually happen, did it? So? Yeah, it's confusing,

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Speaker 3: all right.

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Speaker 2: So we're about to talk to a historian of physics

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Speaker 2: who has a bunch of amazing stories we're going to

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Speaker 2: hear today. But do you have a favorite history of

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Speaker 2: physics story?

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Speaker 3: I do have a favorite. Actually, I'm not sure it's

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Speaker 3: family friendly. It's a story of one guy who actually

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Speaker 3: goes on to win the Nobel Prize, who every evening

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Speaker 3: would come in and urinate on the competitors experiment so

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Speaker 3: that they weren't ready to run for the day. No,

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Speaker 3: the lore is that this was captured on video, though

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Speaker 3: I've never actually seen the video myself, but yeah, this

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Speaker 3: is a story bouncing around the halls of particle physics.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, how long ago was this?

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Speaker 3: This apparently was in the seventies.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 2: So my favorite urine based physics story is it hennick Brand,

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Speaker 2: the guy who discovered phosphorus by boiling his own urine

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Speaker 2: and finding it accidentally. Is that right?

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Speaker 3: No, nothing that glamorous. And I won't repeat the names

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Speaker 3: in the story because I've been told by other people

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Speaker 3: that the story is apocryphal. But whether it's true or not,

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Speaker 3: it's a story which exists in the halls of physics

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Speaker 3: and is told with much relish.

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Speaker 2: But my urine story is true, right, not apocryphal.

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Speaker 3: I can't fact check that myself, but it sounds right.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right?

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Speaker 2: We had a three D printed trophy for Bafest based

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Speaker 2: on a famous painting of this man boiling his urine

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Speaker 2: to discover phosphorus. Anyway, So now that we've told some

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Speaker 2: good stories, some true, some maybe not so true, should

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Speaker 2: we transition to the definitely true stories that Kathy has

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Speaker 2: for us today?

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Speaker 3: That's right. Neither of us are historians of physics, so

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Speaker 3: we reached out to Kathy Joseph, who is an expert

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Speaker 3: in the history of electromagnetism. How all these crazy personalities

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Speaker 3: wove their work together to give us the understanding that

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Speaker 3: we have today and maybe the gaps that exist in

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Speaker 3: those modern stories and what we can learn from digging

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Speaker 3: in detail into the past. Kathy is great because she

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Speaker 3: actually goes back and reads the original papers written by

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Speaker 3: these folks rather than just trusting the modern summaries.

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Speaker 2: I love that about Kathy, and I love her sense

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Speaker 2: of humor. So let's jump in.

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Speaker 3: So it's my pleasure to welcome to the show. Kathy Joseph.

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Speaker 3: She's a very well known YouTuber who has a channel

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Speaker 3: about the history of physics. It's called Kathy Love's Physics.

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Speaker 3: Check it out. She also was a high school physics

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Speaker 3: tea for many years and is the author of the

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Speaker 3: very entertaining and illuminating book The Lightning Tamers. Kathy, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much for being on. Tell us how you

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Speaker 3: ended up being a physics history YouTuber when you were

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Speaker 3: originally a physics PhD student and a physics high school teacher.

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Speaker 3: Connect those dots for us. What is Kathy's history?

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Speaker 1: Ah? Well, I've always been sort of interested in history,

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Speaker 1: but much more from the historical fiction point of view.

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Speaker 1: I like learning about how ordinary people lived in the past.

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Speaker 1: So I always studied history by just looking into different

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Speaker 1: people and enjoying their stories, and with a caveat that

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Speaker 1: I know that everything I was getting was not necessarily true,

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Speaker 1: which I think helped me in the future because I'm

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Speaker 1: always been suspicious of everything I read. It's like, is

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Speaker 1: that historically true or not? Because I did that, and

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Speaker 1: then I ended up, through my various pass in my career,

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Speaker 1: helping someone edit a book on non destructive testing, which

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Speaker 1: is just as exciting as it sounds. It's an engineering

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Speaker 1: book like how to test if different devices are okay

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Speaker 1: or different items are okay, like is there a weakness

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Speaker 1: in the line of train and without breaking it up?

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Speaker 1: And they had different sections on different ways to test things,

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Speaker 1: and I ended up editing this section on X rays

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, let's look into the history of

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Speaker 1: X rays a little bit to spice this up a

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Speaker 1: little bit. And the history of X rays is amazing.

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Speaker 1: There's been poetry, there's crazy, crazy things. And I started

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Speaker 1: to just look into the every once in a while

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Speaker 1: just for my own edification. And then I ended up

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Speaker 1: being a high school physics teacher, which I loved.

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Speaker 3: Wow, thank you for your service. That's really the front

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Speaker 3: lines of education right there.

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Speaker 1: It is the front lines of education. But it is

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Speaker 1: also the place where you can make the most difference.

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Speaker 1: Like if you talk to anyone who did any accomplishment

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Speaker 1: in life, nine times out of ten they say they

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Speaker 1: were inspired by a high school teacher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And shout out to all the high school science

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Speaker 3: teachers out there who are inspiring the next generation of

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Speaker 3: scientists who are going to create the next layer of history.

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Speaker 2: Amen, How does writing pop science differ when you're writing

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Speaker 2: pop historical science.

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Speaker 1: Is it a.

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Speaker 2: Different set of skills that you need to be writing

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Speaker 2: about the history, or a different set of research techniques?

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Speaker 2: Or did you learn everything you needed when you were

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Speaker 2: working on your physics PhD?

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Speaker 1: Working on my physics PhD? I mean nothing except that

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Speaker 1: except that the way I was trying to work on

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Speaker 1: it was not working for me. And the way I

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Speaker 1: approach looking at the history is as a way to

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Speaker 1: teach the physics. It's always a way to teach the physics.

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Speaker 1: And it's a mystery story. Every single one of them

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Speaker 1: is a mystery story. Who did it? And why?

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Speaker 3: I love the way that you approach history. You make

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Speaker 3: it so personal because science is just people, right. It's

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Speaker 3: weird people having accidents and rivalries and writing grumpy letters

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Speaker 3: back and forth. And I think a lot of people

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Speaker 3: when they think of the history of physics, they only

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Speaker 3: take the sort of sanitized, summarized version in a textbook,

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Speaker 3: like a straight line from not understanding to understanding, when

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Speaker 3: really it's like a crazy zigzag that later people patched

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Speaker 3: up and they removed a lot of the fun bits.

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Speaker 3: So I was hoping that you would take us through

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Speaker 3: some of the history of our understanding of electromagnetism, some

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Speaker 3: of the messy discoveries and the fun stories. Where do

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Speaker 3: you think is a fun place to jump in? Take

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Speaker 3: us back to sort of like before we understood electricity

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Speaker 3: at all, What were people doing to try to understand it?

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Speaker 3: What were the experiments that were helping us figure it out? Well.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that really surprised me was that

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Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds, electricity wasn't really a science. It

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Speaker 1: was an entertainment and it was also a way to

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Speaker 1: get ahead in life. You could be a good musician,

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Speaker 1: or you could be a scientist, or you could be

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Speaker 1: a poet. Especially in France, the king who made Versailles,

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Speaker 1: the Son King, he was very into using science as

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Speaker 1: a way of entertainment and a way of showing that

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Speaker 1: you were noble, if you were elite. You spoke poetry

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Speaker 1: and you knew about science, and you did crazy experiments.

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Speaker 1: And there's all these amazing, amazing drawings from that time period.

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Speaker 1: Like the cover of my book has this little dry

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Speaker 1: out circle of this woman in this beautiful giant ball

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Speaker 1: gown rubbing this sphere, and then there's a child hung

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Speaker 1: up by strings off the air and his feet is

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Speaker 1: touching the ball, so the electricity flows through him to

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Speaker 1: this little girl in another little cute, elegant gown standing

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Speaker 1: on a wooden platform, having little electric pieces of paper

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Speaker 1: or flaff for gold foil rise to her hand as

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Speaker 1: she's electrified. And there's so many pictures. In fact, if

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Speaker 1: you look really closely at the book, you can see

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Speaker 1: the French letters from the words on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the page, because they were printed out in little books.

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Speaker 1: And I went to this museum called the Spark Museum

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Speaker 1: and I got to hold an original book from seventeen

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Speaker 1: forty nine. It was tiny. It was like two inches

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Speaker 1: long and one inch wide. It was tiny so that

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Speaker 1: they could put them in their little pockets of their

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Speaker 1: elegant gowns and what have you. There whereas they could

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Speaker 1: take it out and look at these incredibly intricate portraits

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Speaker 1: that they put inside them.

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Speaker 3: Wow, we should start making two inch versions of modern textbooks.

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Speaker 3: That would be prettyhilarious.

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Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like a little cheat sheet for like

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Speaker 2: how to be interesting at a party. I need more

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Speaker 2: pockets to hold those so that people will invite me places.

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Speaker 3: Physics is definitely not the way to be interesting at

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Speaker 3: a party. Yeah, it kind of it.

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Speaker 2: Could be, depending on the party. There are some pretty

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Speaker 2: boring parties if you're trying to entertain with electricity at

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Speaker 2: a time when we don't understand electricity, well are There

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Speaker 2: also a lot of stories of people hurting themselves or

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Speaker 2: the children they're stringing up by their feet.

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Speaker 1: Yes, not as many as you would expecting how dangerous

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Speaker 1: it was, But I think that's because the time was

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Speaker 1: so dangerous. They don't have antibiotics. You could die million

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Speaker 1: ways from Sunday, and they sort of felt and many

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Speaker 1: of them said, I want to die from electricity. There

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Speaker 1: was this German scientist named Mathaa Bosa, one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite scientists of all time, because he was a performer,

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Speaker 1: a grand performer, and he would, for example, electrify a

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Speaker 1: pretty woman by having her stand on something and while

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Speaker 1: someone rubbed that sphere and then give her a kiss,

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Speaker 1: and he called it venus electrificatas, and then he wrote

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Speaker 1: a bad poetry about it, like, you know, I kissed

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Speaker 1: venus standing on the wax. My lips trembled, my teeth

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Speaker 1: almost broke. I can't remember the rest of them.

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Speaker 2: It's a great kiss. And it was the idea that

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Speaker 2: like he wanted to create a spark so that they

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Speaker 2: would both be like wooin but it hurt.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it wouldn't hurt with their hands, but it would

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Speaker 1: sure hurt with your lips.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Wow. The history of flirting with physics is fascinating. But

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Speaker 3: so physics is a way to like amaze and awe

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Speaker 3: and entertain or at less electricity is at what point

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Speaker 3: did people start to wonder like can we understand this,

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Speaker 3: to do experiments to try to force the universe to

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Speaker 3: reveal how it works. When did we really begin to

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Speaker 3: understand it?

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Speaker 1: Well, that kind of happened simultaneously. For example, there was

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Speaker 1: this French scientist named du Fey, and he was the

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Speaker 1: first person who made the sort of rules of electricity.

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Speaker 1: He had this theory that if something was electrified and

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Speaker 1: a neutral object came to it and stuck on it,

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Speaker 1: the neutral object could absorb some of the electricity and

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Speaker 1: then be repelled by it, which is what we think

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Speaker 1: happens to And he did an experiment like that, and

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Speaker 1: he had two charged rods and he's like, okay, if

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Speaker 1: it repels from one. It's your repel from the other.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't. It was attracted to the other, and

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Speaker 1: then it was repelled by that and attracted to the

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Speaker 1: first and went bouncing back and forth between these two

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Speaker 1: charged objects, one made out of glass and one made

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Speaker 1: of wax. So he said, there's two kinds of electricity,

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Speaker 1: vitreous electricity or electricity that comes from glass, and resinous

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Speaker 1: electricity or resin based, wax based. So Charles Sistine Devey

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Speaker 1: was a real inspiration for Boza doing his crazy experiments.

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Speaker 1: So I found that happens all through the history of science.

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Speaker 1: Someone makes a real breakthrough on our understanding, but then

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Speaker 1: someone else makes it popular by making a useful device

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Speaker 1: or making a fun device or both. Like with X rays,

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Speaker 1: they mostly thought it was fun for a while. Oops, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: They would go on traveling things and give X rays

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Speaker 1: for you know, like a quarter, just for fun.

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Speaker 3: With shockingly high doses.

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Speaker 1: Right at first, No, because they couldn't figure out how

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Speaker 1: to make shockingly high does. You had to stay there

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Speaker 1: for a really long time because it just wouldn't work.

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Speaker 1: It took a while to just figure out how to

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Speaker 1: up the dose as well. But I'm Sorry, I got

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Speaker 1: back onto X rays. But it's the true with all

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Speaker 1: of it. It's not one at a time. And I

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Speaker 1: think that is a problem with most history of science books,

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Speaker 1: is that they focus on this one part of technology

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Speaker 1: or one discovery or whatever, and they're not in isolation.

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Speaker 1: The theory happens at the same time as the development

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Speaker 1: and technologies, same times as it affecting the culture, and

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Speaker 1: they're all intertwined with each other, and they're all influencing

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Speaker 1: each other. And it's not linear like you were saying before.

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Speaker 1: It's not like this person makes this person. Sometimes you

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Speaker 1: go backwards. And one of our greatest discoveries was the

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Speaker 1: discovery of the idea of electric fields, and that happened

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Speaker 1: because a guy named Michael Faraday went, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I've discovered so much, I should look in the history

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Speaker 1: and see what it tells me.

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Speaker 3: All right, So I want to hear all about the

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Speaker 3: history of Michael Faraday and how that laid the groundwork

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Speaker 3: for Maxwell to get maybe too much credit for Maxwell's equations.

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Speaker 3: But first we have to take a quick break. All right,

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Speaker 3: we're back and we're talking to historian Kathy Joseph of

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Speaker 3: the YouTube channel Kathy loves physics, about how the history

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Speaker 3: of electromagnetism and the history of physics in general is

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Speaker 3: a little bit messier and a lot less linear than

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Speaker 3: you might have thought, at least than I thought. So

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Speaker 3: tell us about Michael Faraday and his experiments and what

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Speaker 3: he helped us understand and how he did it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Michael Faraday is my favorite scientist of all time.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the second time you've said that, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: I think that means that you just are full of

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Speaker 2: enthusiasm and love for your topic. I thought your favorite

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Speaker 2: was the one who did the electric smooches.

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Speaker 1: Oh shoot, no.

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Speaker 3: It's okay. You kind of have a new favorite every

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Speaker 3: ten minutes. Thoro all wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Boat is one of my favorites. Okay, Michael Faraday is

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Speaker 1: clear and away my favorite.

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Speaker 3: Right. Why is that because he was a fan of

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Speaker 3: the history as well.

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Speaker 1: Partially you asked me to talk about Michael Veraday. But

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Speaker 1: first start saying, I didn't start off by thinking the

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Speaker 1: history of science was not important. I started off by

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Speaker 1: thinking the history of science was interesting to me, and

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Speaker 1: I thought it might be a little bit helpful for

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Speaker 1: helping other people understand science. But it's turned into a

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Speaker 1: deep belief that the science and technology doesn't come from

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Speaker 1: the equations, it comes from how we got the equations.

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Speaker 1: And no one has been more influential and more poetic

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Speaker 1: than Michael Farday. Michael Faraday was born in the slums

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Speaker 1: of London to a mostly out of work and sick father,

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Speaker 1: and he went to school for a week before his

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Speaker 1: teacher told his big brother to get a switch to

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Speaker 1: hit him with because he called his brother Robert instead

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Speaker 1: of Robert. And the other went to the mom and said,

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Speaker 1: this is what I'm supposed to do. And the mom

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Speaker 1: marched in there and took both kids out of school

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Speaker 1: and homeschooled four kids. She had two daughters as well,

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Speaker 1: who weren't allowed to go to school. And she knew

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Speaker 1: no math. And he never learned math. He had a

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Speaker 1: terrible math phobia. They had no books.

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Speaker 3: One of the greatest physicists of all time, you're telling

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Speaker 3: me you had a math phobia.

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Speaker 1: Terrible math phobia. He called it hieroglyphics. He never wrote

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Speaker 1: an equation. He didn't really understand them.

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Speaker 3: He never wrote an equation. How does Faraday do all

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Speaker 3: of his physics and leave such an imprint on history

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Speaker 3: of physics without writing an equation.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing. Well, Maxwell actually read Faraday and said this

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Speaker 1: is mathematical. It's just not in mathematical terms. So to Maxwell,

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Speaker 1: Faraday was mathematical. It just you know, you can do

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Speaker 1: math and language.

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Speaker 3: Does that mean that Faraday's papers are in like sentences

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Speaker 3: rather than in symbols. He's like writing descriptions of what

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Speaker 3: he sees and describing relationships, but just not using like

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Speaker 3: equals and numbers.

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Speaker 1: Right, not using equals and numbers and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But also Faraday had this amazing knack of seeing sort

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Speaker 1: of what lies underneath our world and developing it. He

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Speaker 1: was a chemist and a physicist, so he had.

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Speaker 3: No education except for his mom.

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Speaker 1: Except for his mom.

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Speaker 3: Big props to Faraday's mom.

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Speaker 1: Big props who he loved. His relationship with his mom

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Speaker 1: is so sweet. I'm getting out of myself. He was

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Speaker 1: this poor kid. He always hanging out at a bookseller's

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Speaker 1: just to look at the books in their window. And

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Speaker 1: the bookseller, this guy named Merbau, gave him a job

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Speaker 1: as a delivery boy and then gave him a job

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Speaker 1: as a bookbinder and let him read the books that

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Speaker 1: were in the bookshelf, and there was a book there

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Speaker 1: by a woman named Jane Marcette called Conversations in Chemistry.

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Speaker 1: There was this guy named Humphrey Davy who was a

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Speaker 1: famous chemist, like the world's famous chemist, who was doing

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Speaker 1: experiments with this giant battery to separate chemicals and discovered

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of different chemicals. This was eighteen hundred

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Speaker 1: about his talks were the most popular thing in England,

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Speaker 1: Like they had to make the road one way to

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Speaker 1: deal with traffic when he gave a talk. Wow, he

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Speaker 1: has letters to his parents and brother about like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited about this talk. They're reselling my tickets

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Speaker 1: at fifty pounds and I'm like, oh my god, that's

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Speaker 1: what they pay people for a year of labor at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like, he's like Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 1: He was the Taylor Swift. Poets would go to him

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Speaker 1: for new language and like famous poets cooler Ridge and

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Speaker 1: Southby and I don't know very much about poetry, but

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Speaker 1: they would go to him, and he was very, very popular.

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Speaker 1: And this woman went to his talk named James Marsette,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, I wish I knew some chemistry so

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Speaker 1: I could understand this better. So she asked her husband

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Speaker 1: to help her, and then she wrote this book, Conversations

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Speaker 1: and Chemistry, and that's how Faraday learned chemistry.

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize women were so important in Faraday's education.

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Speaker 2: You know what.

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Speaker 1: Women keep on coming up throughout everyone's story and what

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Speaker 1: I found so lovely about Faraday. Lots of times when

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Speaker 1: you go through the history of science partially this is

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Speaker 1: a different time period, so you find people who would

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Speaker 1: affect you know, sex and racism and classism and all

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and they disappoint you sometimes and sometimes people

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Speaker 1: you don't expect turn out to be wonderful. But when

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Speaker 1: you read their private letters, you get to know who

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Speaker 1: they are as people at their bad points, at their

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Speaker 1: good points. And yes, I judge people. I'm a historian.

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Speaker 1: That's how it works. And Faraday, I haven't read everything.

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Speaker 1: He could disappoint me, but he was always everything I've read.

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Speaker 1: He was kind, and he was supportive, and he was lovely.

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Speaker 1: I call him the original slam poet, like slam poets

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Speaker 1: do poetry without rhyming. And if you read his talks,

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Speaker 1: he says stuff like I'm no poet, but if you

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Speaker 1: listen carefully, a poem will form in your mind.

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Speaker 2: Oh nice, Yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I'm waving myself the vapors. So the vapors.

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Speaker 1: He loved physics as much as I love physics.

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Speaker 3: And he actually did a bunch of experiments, right, He

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Speaker 3: like played around in the laboratory and made these discoveries himself. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yes. His big claim to fame was when he was

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Speaker 1: working on trying to make glass for the English government

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Speaker 1: for lenses, which he said just gave him nervous headaches.

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Speaker 1: So in July fourth, eighteen thirty one, he quit Day

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Speaker 1: of Independence for him and I remember that date, of course.

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Speaker 1: And then he decided, He's like, okay, electricity can make magnetism.

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Speaker 1: He knew if you had a coil of wire and

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Speaker 1: you put electricity in it, it acted like a bar magnet.

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Speaker 1: And if you put it around the iron bar, it

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Speaker 1: really acted like a strong bar magnet.

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Speaker 2: And had he figured that out or somebody else knew

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Speaker 2: that and he just knew it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So this guy named Orsted figured out that electricity

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Speaker 1: would move a magnet, and okay, Orsteed thought there were

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Speaker 1: spiraling currents. One spiraling current was moving the north, one

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Speaker 1: was moving the south, all sorts of stuff, and Faraday's like, no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: He did an experiment and he found current could move

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Speaker 1: magnet in a circle, and the magnet could move a

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Speaker 1: curtains in a circle. Okay, and they call that the

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Speaker 1: first motor. But like, unless you want a motor to

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Speaker 1: stir mercury, it's not very useful, Like, okay, great, But

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Speaker 1: what it did was it showed them that this was

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Speaker 1: a very strange force. Every other force is a push

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Speaker 1: or a pull. This force is like Gandalf's staff. You know,

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Speaker 1: they put the staff down and then the force is

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Speaker 1: going in circles around it. And this was different than

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Speaker 1: how anyone thought of some physics laws at the time.

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Speaker 1: And then in eighteen thirty one he found out that

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Speaker 1: you could use bagnetism to make electricity because he actually

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Speaker 1: had two coils on an iron ring. He's like, maybe

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Speaker 1: the iron bulls moved the electricity from one coil to

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Speaker 1: the other. And what happened instead was when he put

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Speaker 1: electricity in one coil, he got a burst of electricity

439
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: in the other, and we took it away. It got

440
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: a burst of electricity in the other.

441
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 3: Direction and So did he think about this in terms

442
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 3: of charges or fluids or fields? What do you think

443
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 3: was going on in Faraday's head? How did he understand this?

444
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: He understood it in terms of fields, because he was

445
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 1: the one to come up with the ideal fields.

446
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 3: Because when I always taught the history of physics, usually

447
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: Maxwell's given the credit for that. Maxwell's the one who

448
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: thinks about things in terms of fields for the first time.

449
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 3: But you're saying it's Faraday.

450
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: It's one hundred percent Faraday. And Maxwell even wrote his

451
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: first paper called on Faraday's Lines of Force. In Maxwell's

452
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: famous eighteen sixty four paper, where he describes how light

453
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: is an electromagnetic wave, he says, this is exactly like

454
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: Faraday said in eighteen forty six. This is insane in principle.

455
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: In his book he says, the purpose of everything I

456
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: did was to get you to appreciate and understand Faraday's work.

457
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: Like you were saying before, he's like translating and popularizing, right,

458
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 3: But I want to ask you to tell us the

459
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 3: story about Faraday and Wheatstone at the Royal Society, which

460
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 3: seemed like a sort of turning point in the history

461
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 3: of physics.

462
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: Oh, this is great. This is great. So Faraday had

463
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: created the idea of magnetic field, he created the idea

464
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: of electric field. He found out that a magnetic field

465
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: could change the polarization of light, so he found a

466
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: connection between a Lie Tristy magnetism and light. He found

467
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: that everything had a magnetic effect. He coined the term

468
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: magnetic field. Fara Day did all this, This is all

469
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: fair Day, Okay, all fair Day, and created the idea

470
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: of electric fields and dielectrics and every other term use

471
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 1: in chemistry like cathode, anode, electrode. All came from Fariday.

472
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: Wowdy did everything, basically, he did everything. I'm sure he

473
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 3: made his mom proud.

474
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: He wrote his wife a letter that said, please stop

475
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 1: talking to my mom about what I'm doing, because I'm

476
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: getting sick of her growing too much, Like we don't

477
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: need anymore.

478
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: That's nice though, It's nice that his mom gets to

479
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: be proud after doing all of that hard work to

480
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: train him.

481
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: They were so adorable with each other.

482
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: It's crazy, all right. So fair Day figures this all out,

483
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: and then he's at the Royal Society.

484
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: He's at the Royal Society. This is eighteen forty six

485
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: May of eighteen forty six, and he's supposed to introduce

486
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: a talk by a guy named Charles Whetstone.

487
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

488
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: And Wheatstone had a well known fear of public speaking,

489
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: so he was supposed to go in and he just bailed.

490
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: He walks out the back door right before this week stuff.

491
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: I'd been told that they now lock the back door

492
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: at the Royal Society because they still have talks there,

493
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: and I no, you should make it extra easy to

494
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: run out the back door, because look at all the

495
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: great things that happened because of this. But anyway, he bails. Now.

496
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Faraday was the most organized person you've ever encountered in history.

497
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: I put my money down on that. Like he put

498
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: a number next to every paragraph in his lab notebook,

499
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: and he worked for I think thirty or so years. Wow,

500
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: and from number one to number like, I don't know,

501
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: twenty thousand or something like, wow.

502
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: Why what would you do with that information?

503
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: So he could refer to pass paragraphs.

504
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 3: As I said, in paragraphs forty two right right right.

505
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: Right right right exactly. And that's what he'd do with

506
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: his papers too. All his papers and electricity were numbered,

507
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: and then he would refer to like five different ones,

508
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is hard for me to follow.

509
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: I love that you've gone back and read all the

510
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 3: original papers. That's awesome anyway. So he's at the Royal Society.

511
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: Wheatstone walks out the back door.

512
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: He's supposed to give an introduction, but now he has

513
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: talked for an hour. And he never was unprepared. He

514
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: studied how to talk. He was always very very well prepared.

515
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: But he wasn't.

516
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he.

517
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: Starts talking about the vague reflections of my mind. I

518
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: think he called it something like that, and he said, Okay,

519
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: imagine you have a magnet and another magnet combined with

520
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: their lines of magnetic force, or you have an electric

521
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: thing an electric thing, and they're combined by their lines

522
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: of electric force. You vibrate one it's going to make

523
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: a vibration in those lines of force, and then vibrate

524
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: the other one.

525
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

526
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: He said, maybe, just maybe that's what light is. He said,

527
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: I'm trying to keep the vibrations and remove the ether.

528
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: Wow. So far Day magnetism. Fair Day has the idea

529
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 3: of fields. Faraday figured out dipoles and dielectrics. Fair Day

530
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,959
Speaker 3: even came up with the idea that light is a

531
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: vibration of electromagnetic fields.

532
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: Yes. Wow.

533
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 3: And he only revealed it because he gave an impromptu

534
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: talk at the Royal Society because wheat Stone ran out

535
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: the back.

536
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: Door exactly, and then afterwards they asked him to write

537
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: it up. It's like a three page paper. Wow, it's

538
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: thoughts on ray vibrations. It's very short, and a good

539
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: half of it is I might be wrong. Don't take

540
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: it different. Don't be upset with me. I'm just speaking

541
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: out of my behind. Basically, I have to fill up

542
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: the time. Don't be mad at me. Well. The weird

543
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: thing is in eighteen thirty seven when Faraday built the

544
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: Faraday Cage, which protected him from electric fields, and came

545
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: up with the idea that non metals affect the electric field,

546
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: and came up with the idea of an electric field.

547
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: This made everyone mad. Everyone hated it. Well two reasons.

548
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: One is because he thought of so imagine two magnets

549
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: and you're pushing the two norths together. You can imagine

550
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: the magnetic field lines around them getting more and more compressed,

551
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: and that's why they're repelling each other. And that's how

552
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: we think of it, right, I mean, as physicists, or

553
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: we can think of it that way as physicists. Well,

554
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: they didn't think of it that back then. They didn't

555
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: think of it as compressing curved lines of force. They

556
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: thought of it as repelling force and attraction force. And

557
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: so to think of electric repulsion and attraction as combining

558
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: and compressing these lines of force seemed just ludicrous to

559
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 1: them and seemed oppositional to the mathematical science that they

560
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: had at the time. So there was lots of letters

561
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: of like, I really respect you, mister Faraday, Professor Faraday, whatever,

562
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: and let me tell you the twelve reasons why you're wrong.

563
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: My favorite was someone wrote in about all the reasons

564
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: he thought he was wrong, and he numbered the paragraph.

565
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, he's speaking Faraday's lately.

566
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: You're like, this is showing my love for you. I

567
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: follow you. I just don't believe this. And the other

568
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: part is that Faraday thought that dielectrics non conductors propelled

569
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 1: the electric feel for it instead of reduce the electric field.

570
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: All right, So draw dotted line for us between Faraday

571
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 3: and Maxwell? Was Maxwell in the audience that day at

572
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: the Royal Society? Did he read Faraday's papers? How does

573
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 3: Maxwell then get credit for pulling together all of these

574
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: ideas into what we now call Maxwell's equations.

575
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 2: I think that's a great topic for us to tackle

576
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: after the break. All right, and we're back and.

577
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 3: We're talking to Kathy Joseph, famous YouTuber of Kathy Love's

578
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 3: Physics fame, who's telling us all about the history of

579
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: Maxwell's equations. So when we broke off, Faraday hit revealed

580
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: all the big insights about how electromagntism works. And you're

581
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 3: going to tell us about how Maxwell pulled this all

582
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: together and somehow won the pr battle for history.

583
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: He deserves it because Faraday had all these ideas and

584
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: their amazing ideas, but in order to use it to

585
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: predict other things, we need the math, and Maxwell added

586
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 1: that secret sauce the math. And also because of Maxwell,

587
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: we have vector mathematics. But anyway, let me start with

588
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: what Maxwell start. He didn't go to these meetings. He

589
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: had never done electricity experiments before. And what happened was,

590
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: as a young man, he was probably twenty one or

591
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: twenty two years old, he wrote a letter to a mentor,

592
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: and Maxwell had a funny way of putting things. He

593
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: was allowed to study his own things. So he said,

594
00:35:53,800 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 1: I'm entering the unholy state of bachelorhood, and I want

595
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: to attack electricity. What should I do? Should I read

596
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: Faraday or should I read and Pierre and Ploaissau and

597
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: all these other people who are much more mathematical. And

598
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: Pierre and Faraday, by the way, were good pen pals.

599
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: They met each other once, but they were good friends

600
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 1: with each other even when they disagreed. And the person

601
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 1: he wrote to, a guy named William Thompson, who eventually

602
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: became Lord Kelvin, like the temperature had actually inspired Faraday

603
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: to do some experiments and was, as he put it,

604
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: full of Faraday fire. And he told Maxwell to start

605
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: with Faraday. Faraday is the greatest. He was as big

606
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: a Faraday fan as I am, I think. And Maxwell

607
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: was like, well, aren't they in conflict with the other

608
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: physicists and this guy Thompson. And He's like, no, no,

609
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: they work well together. You just have to see it, right.

610
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: He writes it many times, like, Sir William Thompson inspired

611
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: me to do this, to see how Fairaday's view of

612
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: reality worked with all these equations, with these other views

613
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: of reality and messed together.

614
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: It's amazing to me how often science is actually a

615
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: community effort and it's easy to teach as though it's

616
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: one name, because that's easier to remember, and you don't

617
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: want people have to remember feig names for every concept.

618
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 2: But it truly seems like it is a community effort.

619
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: Somebody puts you on a certain path, they help you

620
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: understand it, they encourage you to keep doing it, and sorry, anyway,

621
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: go ahead.

622
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: No, it's always such a tangled weave. That's what makes

623
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: it beautiful to me. It's not like this person did

624
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: this thing on this date and then that's boring too.

625
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: It's much more exciting all these people interacting with each other.

626
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: And what inspires people. I mean, we teach physics without

627
00:37:54,480 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: knowing how anyone is inspired. And in my mind it's like, now, oh,

628
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: I know a hundred stories about how different people were

629
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: inspired in different ways. It's not to be repetitive inspiring.

630
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 3: So what's Maxwell's reaction to reading Faraday? Maxwell sort of

631
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: a mathematical person and fair Day's more of a poet

632
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: of physics. Does Maxwell like what he reads? Is it

633
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 3: makes sense to him? Is he struggle with it?

634
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: He's immediately enthralled, He loves it. He writes this paper

635
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: called on Faraday's Lines of Force. I'm a mathematical person.

636
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: I don't have trouble with advanced math. It's just one

637
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: of my skills. And I gotta tell you Maxwell is

638
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: hard to read for weird, weird reasons. Maxwell, it's not

639
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: all mathematical. It's mostly words and with a little bit

640
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: of math, but the math is confusingly written. And Maxwell

641
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: makes ridiculous amounts of mathematical mistakes. The first one I

642
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: saw it, I'm like, I must be wrong. This is

643
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: Max Well, and then I realized, no, every paper is

644
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: eighty pages long and has eighty mistakes in it.

645
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: Like, oh no, it's good to know you can be

646
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 2: famous and make tons of mistakes.

647
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: And it's actually inspiring. But yeah, Maxwell had this amazing

648
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: mind to take these crazy ideas from Faraday which no

649
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: one had thought of things this way, and put it

650
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: in math terms. And I have nothing but the utmost

651
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: respect and love for Maxwell at also reading him can

652
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: give you a stomach ache.

653
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: So you said he made a lot of mistakes when

654
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: he's being pointed out at the time, or did somebody

655
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: eventually come through and smooth everything for him?

656
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: So first he published this on Faaraday's Lines of Force,

657
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: and I have to tell you this thing. He sent

658
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: it to Faraday and then he had a meeting with

659
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: Faraday where he explained it in simple terms, I mean,

660
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: like wish that he had someone recording that. And Faraday

661
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: said he did a really good job. He wrote Maxwell

662
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 1: and he said, I really think every mathematical scientist should

663
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: do what you did. But of course Maxwell didn't do

664
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: it on paper. He only did it perfectly with Faraday.

665
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: But you know, you come up with your ideas, you

666
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: still have to explain it to others. And Veraday made

667
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: an impassioned plea that every mathematical scientist should put their

668
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: ideas out there so that other people can decipher the

669
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: hieroglyphics and do experiments on it, use it to develop it.

670
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: So he did that before Faraday died, and I'm still

671
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: sad about that, even though he died as an older man.

672
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: And then Maxwell, who was thirty years younger than Faraday,

673
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: I think he read this article that people had done

674
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: this experiment with an electric and magnetic component it that

675
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: was equal to the speed of light, and he was like, oh,

676
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to on Faraday's lines of force,

677
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: and this time he called it on physical lines of

678
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: force and write up the equations up to getting to

679
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: an electromagnetic wave going at the speed of light in

680
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 1: that material. And then he realized that that paper was

681
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: full of mistakes and confusions and weird negative signs and

682
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: and he didn't develop the electromagnetic wave very well. So

683
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: he wrote another paper in eighteen sixty four, and this

684
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: is his most famous paper, but that still had mistakes

685
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: in it.

686
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 2: Check your math, guys, check your math.

687
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 3: Where there are your number two here? Like seriously, somebody

688
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: fixing this stuff up?

689
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: Well, no one could have reviewed this thing. I say

690
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: it's a paper, but it was really three or four papers,

691
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 1: Part one, Part two, Part three, Part one, Pit two four,

692
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 1: and each one is like twenty pages thirty pages long,

693
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: a really complicated math where Maxwell did weird things like

694
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 1: if he had three directions for a field like electric field,

695
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: he wouldn't call it e X, E Y, e Z,

696
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 1: He'd call it alpha, beta, gamma.

697
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,919
Speaker 3: So they're all just independent variables, wow, just.

698
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: All independent variables. And sometimes he'd only include one of

699
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: those variables with the idea that we would know he

700
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: met all three.

701
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 3: So when I'm teaching electromagnetism. I give them these beautiful

702
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 3: short equations that are symmetric th electricity and magnetism, and

703
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 3: we call them Maxwell's equations. But Maxwell doesn't sound like

704
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: he wrote them down in that way. So how do

705
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: we get from Maxwell's like individual components and four pies

706
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 3: and sign mistakes to the equations that we all know

707
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: and love today.

708
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: Well, he sort of did. If you pick and choose

709
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: from his three and his book, you can get Maxwell's

710
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: equations aside from a straight four pie, Maxwell didn't like

711
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: four pie in the electric field for a charge, so

712
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: he added four pies everywhere else, and he changed where

713
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: he put these four pies.

714
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 3: Sounds like a theorist, you know, Yeah, No, I mean I.

715
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: Love Maxwell and also just like ah. But anyway, so

716
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: when he published these things, people tried to understand it.

717
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 1: There was various people because everyone knew Maxwell was brilliant,

718
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 1: and they knew Fariday was brilliant, and they were trying

719
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: to get it. So a lot of people wrote a

720
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: paper or two about this, But the person who really

721
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 1: dived into it was a guy named Oliver Heaviside who

722
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: was working for his uncle named Charles Wheatstone the same

723
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: guy chick it out on the talk.

724
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, small community.

725
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: I gotta say Victorian English Science Society small anyway, Oliver

726
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: Heaviside was working for his uncle. He had a high

727
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: school education. He sees Maxwell's book because Maxwell wrote a

728
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: five hundred page book and the library. He's like, Okay,

729
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: this is the most brilliant thing I've ever seen. I'm

730
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 1: going to quit my job. I'm going to teach myself math.

731
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to teach myself physics. I'm going to teach myself.

732
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,919
Speaker 1: I mean, he knew about basic physics for his engineering job,

733
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: but advanced physics. I'm going to teach myself, advanced mathematics

734
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: like quaternions. I'm going to teach myself all of this

735
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: so I can figure it out. But like nine years

736
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: in his parents' attic with the middle of the night,

737
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: he only liked to work in the middle of night,

738
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: supposedly all night, every night. And then he starts publishing

739
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: an engineering magazine, and he publishes paper after paper after

740
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: paper after paper after paper. And what made Oliver Heaviside

741
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: easier was just simple things like Maxwell either used three

742
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: letters or he used these weird swirly German letters that

743
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: are really hard to distinguish an E from an F.

744
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: And it's like you look at these equations and you're like, wait,

745
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: what is this equation saying? It looks like it's saying

746
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: E E E over, Like what does this say? And

747
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: Oliver Heaviside did stuff like using capital letters in Roman

748
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: letters and making them bold so you can read his stuff.

749
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: It's a lot easier to read Oliver Heavicide, and he

750
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: did other things. Maxwell had this idea of potentials, and

751
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: Hevicide hated the potentials, he called them evil. But by

752
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of it, he got very close

753
00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 1: to getting Maxwell's equations. That's the simplest way to put it.

754
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: I gave a whole talk at uc R Vinen with

755
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: all the details about it, but like the short version

756
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 1: of it is, he got clothes, and then after spending

757
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 1: all that time studying it, all that time writing papers,

758
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: he gets the owner of the magazine, the electrician quit

759
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: and the new owner asked everyone. He said, I asked

760
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: everyone who could possibly have wanted to read your paper,

761
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: and I couldn't find a single person who read any

762
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: of your papers, Wicked Burn. I'm just imagining how Heaviside

763
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: must have felt he quit his job, spent ten years

764
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: on this without knowing if it's going to be any good.

765
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 1: He had publications and a couple of major publications, because

766
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: it was much easier at that time to do that

767
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: even if you weren't in academia. But he was told

768
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: that no one was interested. Right, and then like months

769
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: later it must have seemed like, oh, he hears the

770
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: greatest news ever. Out of Germany, a guy named Heinrich

771
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: Hertz had done an experiment. He used something called a

772
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: rum Korf coil with these long sticks on it antenna,

773
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: and he made a vibrating electric system. The vibrated slower

774
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: than visible light. He had it emerged from one place

775
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: and he received it in another place, and he found

776
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: it moved at the speed of light. He discovered radio waves.

777
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: And he said, the reason I did this was to

778
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:48,439
Speaker 1: validate the Maxwell Faraday equations. And in fact, his old

779
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: boss had challenged him there was a contest you could

780
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: get a hundred floor in or one hundred gold whatever

781
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: if you could experimentally validate Maxwell's equations, and Hurtz said,

782
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 1: this is too hard, I can't do it. And then

783
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: years later when he did it. He sent it to

784
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 1: his boss, Hemholtz, and he said, I'm sorry to bother you,

785
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,280
Speaker 1: but this is something you asked about years before. And

786
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: he wrote back a postcard it just said Bravo, will

787
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: publish it Wednesday. And the whole world went, oh my god,

788
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: Maxwell's laws. We have to figure out Maxwell. So they

789
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: picked up Maxwell's book and they said, oh my god,

790
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: we have to find someone to figure out maxwells not us,

791
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: and so Oliver Heaviside got a lot more popular because

792
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: of that. Also, Hertz wrote one paper before his early

793
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: death on the theory of Maxwell's equations, and one of

794
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: the says of that was that he said in it,

795
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: I think that Oliver Heaviside is working on a similar thing.

796
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 1: So people started to read Heaviside as well. But if

797
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 1: you look at like early Einstein papers, he calls the

798
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: Maxwell Hurts equations. Like you said, these equations have so

799
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: many names on them, so many names that can go

800
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: to them. Honestly, if you're going to give two names,

801
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: I think it should be Faraday Maxwell or Maxwell Faraday.

802
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: Just cutting heavy side out, huh.

803
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: I think he was incredibly influential. There's some people who

804
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: have been very disappointed in and their influence, but not heavicide.

805
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 1: What he managed to accomplish is astonishing. But he made

806
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: the equations more readable, and if you can't make them

807
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: more readable, you can't use them. But he didn't come

808
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: up with the original idea or the original equations, or

809
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 1: make the final formation.

810
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: But physics takes a community, right, It's not just a

811
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 3: couple of people. Everybody plays their role. It's amazing how

812
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 3: many people had to be in the right place at

813
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 3: the right time and be supported by or ditched by

814
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 3: Charles Wheatstone in order for all this history to come

815
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 3: together the way that it did.

816
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: Or Faraday almost didn't get a job in science. It

817
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 1: was just that Humphrey Davey had an assistant who got

818
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: in a fight with a bottle washer who got in

819
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: a fight with a delivery boy, and after the bottles

820
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: got broken, Davy said, okay, Faraday, you can work for me.

821
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: And so if there hadn't been that one altercation, I

822
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: do not see how Faraday could have gotten a job

823
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,879
Speaker 1: in science. By then, he was working as a bookbinder,

824
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: and he couldn't take days off, and he had no

825
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: connections at all except the one person who knew him

826
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: was Davy just a tiny bit, as he'd asked him

827
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: for a job, and he'd showed him a book he'd written,

828
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: and David's like, well, that's great, but I don't have

829
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: an opening. So if that one fight hadn't happened, I

830
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: don't see how Faraday would have gotten his job. I

831
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: don't see how anyone else would have come up with

832
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 1: the idea of electric fields. And if they hadn't come

833
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: up with it later, it would have been too late

834
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: for Maxwell. So would we have radio? Would we have

835
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: equals MC squared? Would we have relativity? I mean, Faraday

836
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: inspired the creation of the generator. Would we have generators? Probably,

837
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: but it would have been later. I mean, I don't

838
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: know where our life would have been if those two

839
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,280
Speaker 1: young boys hadn't gotten a fight.

840
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: And you know, while the physics itself is mostly established,

841
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 3: like classical electromagnetism, it's fascinating to me that the history

842
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 3: of it is still being written and being rewritten and

843
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 3: being revised. That part is still very alive. Do you

844
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 3: think the story of Maxwell's equations is to change over

845
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 3: the next one hundred years, or we're going to start

846
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 3: telling more the story of Heavyside or more the story

847
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 3: of fair Day or do you think that's sort of

848
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 3: like become set in stone in our culture.

849
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,720
Speaker 1: I think we have separated the history from the science.

850
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: I think that most of the people who talk about

851
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: the history do not know the science. I mean, maybe

852
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: they took a couple classes, and I'm just saying most.

853
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: But when you teach the history to make an interesting

854
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: story more than to teach the science, you miss out

855
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: on the purpose of these people's lives. And when you

856
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: teach the science without having any of the history, you

857
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 1: miss out on what this stuff means and where we

858
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: can go with it. And I did that. I mean

859
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: I taught for many many years without the history because

860
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 1: I didn't know it and I didn't know it was important.

861
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: My hope is that I can show by example that

862
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 1: this is not a little side project of like, oh,

863
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: if we have an extra five minutes, maybe I'll tell

864
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 1: you a little bit about the history. But don't worry.

865
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: It's not on the quiz, it's not on the test.

866
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: You don't have to pay any attention to be something

867
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 1: like this is where our ideas came from. Yeah, and

868
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: for me, that is a never ending source of inspiration

869
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: and development because the more you learn, the more other

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00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 1: people can learn from it, the more it can grow

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00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: and develop. So I'm hoping that it's not stationary at all,

872
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: that it is growing and developing and expanding.

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00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 3: And it's worth digging into the history because there's lots

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00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: of paths there that were dropped and not explored, and

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00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 3: some of which could still be fruitful. You know, I

876
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 3: read papers recently about the ether idea, which is coming

877
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 3: back into fashion. So you never know what ideas are

878
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 3: going to be tossed aside and then resuscitated. So yeah,

879
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 3: knowing the history is absolutely crucial.

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00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: There was also a scientist and now his name is

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00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: escaping me, and in the early nineteen hundreds he decided

882
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: to redo Faraday's last experiment, which did not work with

883
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: modern equipment, and I used modern equipment because you know

884
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: forty years later, right, and then he won the Nobel

885
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:26,239
Speaker 1: Prize for that work.

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00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 2: WHOA.

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00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: And I'm not making this up, he said in his

888
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 1: Nobel Price speech. I went to Faraday's work and I

889
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: thought this is an interesting experiment, not because I had

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00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: anything negative to say about Faraday, just we had new

891
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: equipment and I thought I would redo it. So yeah,

892
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 1: there's gold in them Hills, and that feels like a

893
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: perfect note to end on.

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00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: That's a good reason to look back to the past.

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Speaker 3: Yes, thanks very much Kathy for coming on and telling

896
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 3: us the true history of electromagnetism.

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00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. This was lots of fun.

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00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 2: Thank you. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio.

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00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you.

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00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 3: We really would. We want to know what questions you

901
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 3: have about this Extraordinary Universe.

902
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,960
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903
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00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: back to you.

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00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 3: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

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00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 3: at Questions at Danielandkelly dot.

907
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909
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00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,040
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