WEBVTT - Saudi Arabia's "Genius" Crown Prince 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.356 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.396 --> 0:00:25.396 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:25.796 --> 0:00:30.236 I'm Noah Feldman. Welcome to this week's episode, where we 0:00:30.276 --> 0:00:33.556 will discuss Saudi Arabia, one of the most complicated and 0:00:33.716 --> 0:00:37.396 most interesting places in the entire world, also one of 0:00:37.436 --> 0:00:41.516 the most opaque. Saudi Arabia's history is little understood outside 0:00:41.516 --> 0:00:44.316 of the kingdom, but it's hugely important for understanding what's 0:00:44.356 --> 0:00:48.316 going on there right now. Saudi Arabia looms very, very 0:00:48.436 --> 0:00:51.676 large in US consciousness. It started in the nineteen seventies 0:00:51.676 --> 0:00:54.836 when oil was everybody's focus. It rose during the first 0:00:54.876 --> 0:00:57.476 Goal four and then it peaked in the years immediately 0:00:57.516 --> 0:01:01.516 after September eleventh. Since then, Saudi Arabia has never been 0:01:01.716 --> 0:01:04.076 entirely out of the news, but it has become an 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:08.196 especially intense focus of scrutiny and interest during the Trump administration. 0:01:08.516 --> 0:01:11.236 And that's as of the close relationship between the new 0:01:11.356 --> 0:01:15.316 dominant Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman or MBS as he's 0:01:15.356 --> 0:01:19.076 called for short, and the Trump administration. You'll remember that 0:01:19.116 --> 0:01:21.156 Donald Trump made a well publicized to visit the Saudi 0:01:21.156 --> 0:01:23.516 Arabia in the spring of twenty seventeen that was the 0:01:23.556 --> 0:01:26.756 one with a eerie, creepy crystal ball, and he showed 0:01:26.756 --> 0:01:30.356 his great closeness to the government. Then this week, Trump 0:01:30.396 --> 0:01:34.556 authorized a small troop deployment to the country after airstrikes 0:01:34.636 --> 0:01:38.236 hit a major oil processing plant there. Saudi Arabia says 0:01:38.436 --> 0:01:44.196 that Iran was behind the attack, a charge that Iran denies. Meanwhile, domestically, 0:01:44.516 --> 0:01:48.316 an internal revolution of sorts, a quiet revolution, if you will, 0:01:48.516 --> 0:01:51.756 has been happening inside of the Saudi Arabia. This is 0:01:51.756 --> 0:01:55.156 a transformation both in social morays, with women suddenly able 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:59.476 to drive, and simultaneously in political power, with a traditional 0:01:59.516 --> 0:02:03.556 Saudi royal elite family gradually giving way to a single 0:02:03.956 --> 0:02:09.996 overarching figure. MBS himself to discuss the complex personality Bhammed 0:02:10.036 --> 0:02:13.396 bin Salman, the history of US Saudi relations and the 0:02:13.516 --> 0:02:16.956 revolutionary developments going on right now in Saudi Arabia. I 0:02:16.996 --> 0:02:18.996 am thrilled to have with me here in the studio 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:23.236 Bernard Heckel, Professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University. 0:02:24.196 --> 0:02:27.796 He says that to truly understand Saudi Arabia, you actually 0:02:27.836 --> 0:02:31.436 have to start by considering the country's climate. It is 0:02:31.516 --> 0:02:34.236 absolutely a very one of the driest places in the 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.036 world and in fact, one of the harshest ecologies in 0:02:37.036 --> 0:02:39.916 the world. And I think one way to understand Saudi 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:44.516 culture is that historically it was an adaptation to that ecology. 0:02:44.756 --> 0:02:47.916 Fascinating to tell me about about that adaptation and how 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:51.236 it connects to how Saudi Arabia was governed for really 0:02:51.276 --> 0:02:53.516 the last couple of hundred years around since around the 0:02:53.556 --> 0:02:56.596 time of the American Revolution, right, So, because it was 0:02:56.596 --> 0:02:59.916 a very harsh ecology, you had, the principal form of 0:03:00.276 --> 0:03:05.276 social organization was tribal, and tribes are organized around you know, 0:03:05.476 --> 0:03:09.276 an eponym, a grandfather, and often are in conflict with 0:03:09.396 --> 0:03:12.396 one another over material resources. So it happened and means 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:14.596 we are the tribe of so and so that's right, 0:03:14.596 --> 0:03:19.716 We're descendants of of you know, Muhammad been someone and 0:03:19.516 --> 0:03:23.556 and typically a tribe is also named after an ancestor um. 0:03:24.036 --> 0:03:28.996 So these tribes were often feuding over resources. And the 0:03:29.076 --> 0:03:32.436 Wahabis arose in a world in which you had a 0:03:32.436 --> 0:03:35.636 lot of violence of that kind. And it was a 0:03:35.676 --> 0:03:39.436 religious revivalist movement that basically tried to bring order, instability, 0:03:39.436 --> 0:03:42.876 and create a state to control and tamp down the 0:03:43.196 --> 0:03:46.796 nomadic the violent impulse of the nomads. So around two 0:03:46.876 --> 0:03:49.956 hundred and fifty years ago, in this environment of nomadism, 0:03:49.996 --> 0:03:54.516 with no central state, this religious revival movement, Wahabism comes 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:59.036 into existence. Right, named for even Ablwahab himself. It's his name, 0:03:59.196 --> 0:04:02.876 that's right, It's that's right. It's named after a religious 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:06.916 reformer who was a kind of you can think of 0:04:06.996 --> 0:04:09.876 him as a Calvin if you like, or a Luther 0:04:10.076 --> 0:04:12.836 of his day, who basically said, you know that true 0:04:12.876 --> 0:04:17.076 Islam is not practiced. People have deviated from the belief 0:04:17.116 --> 0:04:20.276 in the One True God, and in the name of 0:04:20.636 --> 0:04:23.436 God's oneness, the doctrine of God's oneness, I'm going to 0:04:23.476 --> 0:04:26.916 impose the true faith on everyone, and I'll use the 0:04:26.996 --> 0:04:30.116 sword if necessary to do so. So how did this 0:04:30.516 --> 0:04:35.396 religious reform movement marry itself into a political state. So 0:04:35.756 --> 0:04:39.996 the religious reformer himself made a pact with a local 0:04:40.116 --> 0:04:43.436 leader of a town and essentially said, you know, if 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:47.676 you mobilize your resources in the name of this religious ideology, 0:04:47.716 --> 0:04:51.716 I will give you legitimacy. And then they started preaching 0:04:52.116 --> 0:04:57.596 and fighting and soon began to acquire other territory in 0:04:57.676 --> 0:05:02.716 bringing other territory under their under their power until around 0:05:02.796 --> 0:05:07.156 eighteen o five when they captured Mecca and Medina, and 0:05:07.396 --> 0:05:10.916 much of modern day Arabia came under their influence. And 0:05:10.956 --> 0:05:14.116 the name of the man with whom Ibanabluwahab made this 0:05:14.156 --> 0:05:18.236 deal was Muhammad Ibansoud. And so there is the earth 0:05:18.316 --> 0:05:21.396 of the name Saudi Arabia. It's a guy, it is 0:05:21.516 --> 0:05:23.756 Saud is a guy. I often say to people. There 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:26.036 are not many countries in the world that are named 0:05:26.476 --> 0:05:29.596 the Arabia of somebody. In particular, Saudi Arabia means the 0:05:29.636 --> 0:05:32.076 Arabia that belongs to the family of Saud. That's right, 0:05:32.116 --> 0:05:35.436 and in fact the country owes its existence to their 0:05:35.836 --> 0:05:40.876 religio military efforts to unite this entire territory. So the 0:05:40.956 --> 0:05:44.396 birth of Saudi Arabia happens again right around the time 0:05:44.436 --> 0:05:47.356 of the American Revolution, and it grows out of this 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:52.676 close alliance between the religious reformer and Wahabism and the 0:05:52.716 --> 0:05:55.836 Saudi family and the government that grows out of that. 0:05:55.916 --> 0:05:58.796 So the modern Saudi states, in their various iterations for 0:05:58.796 --> 0:06:01.276 the last two hundred years, are all reflections of that 0:06:01.396 --> 0:06:05.356 unique marriage. And in fact, you know, that's why what's 0:06:05.356 --> 0:06:09.636 happening today is somewhat remarkable because we see that alliance 0:06:09.996 --> 0:06:14.076 between a religious movement and a political family, a dynasty 0:06:14.556 --> 0:06:18.516 coming somewhat apart. So this at least being reconfigured. How 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:21.996 has the relationship between the religious dynasty, because it's been 0:06:21.996 --> 0:06:26.036 a couple hundred years and the political dynasty traditionally operated 0:06:26.196 --> 0:06:30.116 until this most recent generation, right, So this Saudi history 0:06:30.116 --> 0:06:34.196 in the Saudist states have had three different iterations. So 0:06:34.236 --> 0:06:37.596 you had the first Saudi State, which was founded on 0:06:37.636 --> 0:06:41.036 this pact in seventeen forty four and lasted until eighteen 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.636 eighteen when it was crushed by the Ottomans. Then there 0:06:43.676 --> 0:06:46.996 was a second Saudi State, which was less powerful, less 0:06:47.076 --> 0:06:51.156 influential in the nineteenth century, didn't didn't go very far. 0:06:51.436 --> 0:06:53.956 And then we are now in the third Saudi State. 0:06:53.956 --> 0:06:56.996 And this third Saudis state was initiated by one of 0:06:56.996 --> 0:07:00.476 the descendants of the founder, Muhammad Eben Sud. He's known 0:07:00.516 --> 0:07:04.476 as out King Ablaziz otherwise known as Eben Saud as well, 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:10.716 and he began the unification with through the use of 0:07:10.756 --> 0:07:14.636 this religious ideology and violence of the modern Saudi State, 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:18.036 which was ultimately declared a kingdom in nineteen thirty two 0:07:18.316 --> 0:07:23.156 and he became a king. But he allied with this family, 0:07:23.236 --> 0:07:26.876 this religious family of the reformer traditional alliance, and he 0:07:26.876 --> 0:07:28.636 went back that's right, he went back to it. He 0:07:28.876 --> 0:07:36.316 mobilized a religious ideology and forces to bring other territories 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:39.436 under his control. Just started around nineteen o two. By 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:43.036 nineteen thirty two we have the creation of modern Saudi Arabia. 0:07:43.116 --> 0:07:45.796 And amazingly, he did not do this on the suspicion 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:49.316 that there was oil wealth waiting to be found. Yeah, 0:07:49.356 --> 0:07:52.876 none at all. And then as though by direct divine providence, 0:07:53.076 --> 0:07:57.516 right shortly after the state was consolidated, boom, they find oil. 0:07:57.676 --> 0:08:01.116 That's right. Lo and behold, you know, the largest oil 0:08:01.196 --> 0:08:04.556 fields in the world are in Saudi Arabia. One of them, 0:08:04.636 --> 0:08:09.596 for instance, called Kawar is the size of Delaware oil 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:11.716 field is the size of that. And it has been 0:08:11.756 --> 0:08:14.596 pumping you know, close to five million barrels for the 0:08:14.676 --> 0:08:17.116 last fifty some years. With I mean no end in 0:08:17.196 --> 0:08:20.036 immediate site. Eventually it will end, yes, and that's part 0:08:20.076 --> 0:08:22.276 of what we'll talk about. Yes, but you know this 0:08:22.356 --> 0:08:24.436 is you know, the Saudi Arabia has about twenty three 0:08:24.516 --> 0:08:27.996 percent of the world's proven oil reserves, and it is 0:08:27.996 --> 0:08:30.796 the cheapest number, and it's the cheapest oil to produce 0:08:30.876 --> 0:08:32.556 in the world as well. I mean, you know, it 0:08:32.636 --> 0:08:36.756 just literally almost comes out of the ground with minimal effort, right, 0:08:37.276 --> 0:08:43.036 with minimal effort. So this extraordinary thing happens in which 0:08:43.636 --> 0:08:47.156 what was otherwise a kind of minor kingdom in an 0:08:47.156 --> 0:08:50.436 area that most countries had never bothered with, yes, suddenly 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:53.116 became one of the most valuable pieces of real estate 0:08:53.156 --> 0:08:55.796 in the world because it's sitting on these oil resources. Yes. 0:08:56.316 --> 0:08:59.716 I would have imagined that when that happened, the ruler 0:08:59.756 --> 0:09:02.636 would have tacked away from his alliance with the religious 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:06.316 authorities and just gone in on his own. But that 0:09:06.396 --> 0:09:10.276 didn't happen. Yeah, why why did it happen? Well, I 0:09:10.316 --> 0:09:13.996 mean to understand King Ablasis even so, you have to 0:09:14.076 --> 0:09:18.516 understand that the man, I think had it several qualities, 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:21.516 the most important of which is that he knew the 0:09:21.596 --> 0:09:24.836 limits of his own power, and he knew that his 0:09:24.996 --> 0:09:29.876 population was deeply conservative, in fact, religiously quite reactionary, and 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:34.236 that he needed religion in order to control his population. 0:09:34.556 --> 0:09:38.516 There's an apocryphal saying. I think it's apocryphal, but it's 0:09:38.516 --> 0:09:42.316 perfectly in keeping with his temperament and his character, which 0:09:42.356 --> 0:09:45.916 says that religion he is meant to have said, religion 0:09:46.156 --> 0:09:48.956 is like a falcon. The one who controls it hunts 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:52.996 with it. So he understood the power of religion, you know, 0:09:53.116 --> 0:09:56.956 very very well. So King Ablasis creates this dynasty, and 0:09:56.956 --> 0:09:58.476 then he does that kind of remarkable thing. He had 0:09:58.476 --> 0:10:01.596 an enormous number of sons, right, Yes, not quite a hundred, 0:10:01.676 --> 0:10:03.796 but in that no, he had about thirty four thirty 0:10:03.836 --> 0:10:07.196 five sons and an equal number of daughters. And he 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:11.436 set things up so that the inheritance of his royal 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:14.556 throne would not just go from father to son, father 0:10:14.636 --> 0:10:17.236 to son, father to son, as many sort of Game 0:10:17.276 --> 0:10:20.116 of Thrones ish regimes, yes, do it, but rather in 0:10:20.116 --> 0:10:22.436 a kind of somewhat unusual model where it went to 0:10:22.676 --> 0:10:25.316 his one of his older sons, right, and then it 0:10:25.316 --> 0:10:28.636 was supposed to go down through the brothers. That's right. 0:10:28.756 --> 0:10:30.956 Why why I've always been curious about this. It's such 0:10:30.956 --> 0:10:32.796 an unusual way of doing things, and it's been so 0:10:32.836 --> 0:10:35.236 crucial to the history of Saudi Arabia. How did they 0:10:35.236 --> 0:10:39.276 come up with this mechanism of emsignating designating errors? I 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:41.796 mean I think. I think that first of all, it's 0:10:41.796 --> 0:10:44.556 not a it's not a super formalized system, Okay, so 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:47.876 it can be changed, and it is being changed now. Yeah, 0:10:48.236 --> 0:10:50.596 we're coming to the revolution that any moment now, right. 0:10:50.636 --> 0:10:53.276 So the first thing to understand also is that that 0:10:53.596 --> 0:10:55.556 the creation of Saudi Arabia was not just the work 0:10:55.596 --> 0:10:58.356 of King Ablasis. It was also the creation of some 0:10:58.396 --> 0:11:00.996 of his sons who were very close an age to him. 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:03.316 I mean, many of them had fought these battles themselves 0:11:03.316 --> 0:11:05.676 with him because they were with him pretty young, that's right. Yeah. 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:08.996 And so so the idea that somehow you could side 0:11:09.156 --> 0:11:11.636 line these people who were the founding fathers of the 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:16.916 kingdom was deemed untenable. So it was determined that the 0:11:16.956 --> 0:11:21.596 most competent, the most eligible of the sons would become 0:11:22.556 --> 0:11:26.836 the king by consensus and acclamation of the other brothers, 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:30.796 and the government was divvied up between the brothers. So 0:11:30.836 --> 0:11:34.396 you had different ministries under the control of different brothers, 0:11:34.396 --> 0:11:37.236 each one of which became sort of almost like a 0:11:37.236 --> 0:11:41.036 semi autonomous statelet if you like, within the state. So 0:11:41.116 --> 0:11:43.796 one guy controlled the Ministry of the Interior, another person 0:11:43.916 --> 0:11:46.876 was the governor of a large province. A third was 0:11:47.276 --> 0:11:49.476 in charge of the foreign ministry and so on, though 0:11:49.516 --> 0:11:51.356 they like to use a non brother for the ministry 0:11:51.356 --> 0:11:54.316 of oil. Right, that's right for too important, that's right 0:11:54.396 --> 0:11:57.956 for the kind of crown jewels of the system. And 0:11:57.996 --> 0:12:01.316 there are really two. One is the oil company Saudi Aramco, 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:04.116 that's always been run by a technocrat, and princes were 0:12:04.156 --> 0:12:07.316 kept away in order not to mess it up. And 0:12:07.356 --> 0:12:09.636 the other is the central bank, what is called the 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:12.556 Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency, that's always been run also by 0:12:12.556 --> 0:12:16.836 a technocrat. So they divided up power between themselves. You know, 0:12:16.876 --> 0:12:19.476 it became a gerontocracy. It became a country that was 0:12:19.596 --> 0:12:24.516 increasingly ruled by very old people because the brothers got older. 0:12:24.556 --> 0:12:27.156 And that's right. The brothers got older and older, and 0:12:27.196 --> 0:12:29.476 they stayed on, you know, in positions of power, some 0:12:29.556 --> 0:12:32.396 of them for forty fifty years as ministers different and 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:36.116 different agencies of the government. And as a result you 0:12:36.236 --> 0:12:40.236 had the consequences of that politically, that people as they 0:12:40.276 --> 0:12:42.796 got older didn't want to change things. It's a place 0:12:42.836 --> 0:12:46.876 that's extremely conservative to begin with. So to understand MBS 0:12:46.916 --> 0:12:49.276 also you have to understand that that he comes out 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:52.996 of a system that was essentially run by extremely old 0:12:53.036 --> 0:12:57.916 people who were unwilling to change how the country. Yeah, 0:12:57.996 --> 0:13:00.436 how the country was run. So as the brothers get 0:13:00.476 --> 0:13:02.596 as the even of the youngest of the brothers gets 0:13:02.596 --> 0:13:05.436 older and older, any observer inside and outside can tell 0:13:05.476 --> 0:13:07.876 that at some point they're gonna have to switch away 0:13:07.916 --> 0:13:11.756 from the brothers. That's now set the stage for the 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:14.476 current day and the rise of the crown Prince Mohammed 0:13:14.516 --> 0:13:16.636 bin Salmon. Where does he stand first of all generationally 0:13:17.036 --> 0:13:21.396 compared to a Blasi's Ben Salwood? You know, I mean, 0:13:21.436 --> 0:13:25.036 he is the grandson of the founder King, but the 0:13:25.116 --> 0:13:29.156 grandfather died in nineteen fifty three and he's still in 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:31.796 his early thirties today, and he was born around nineteen 0:13:31.916 --> 0:13:35.476 eighty I believe. But his father has still let us 0:13:35.516 --> 0:13:38.876 not forget the King of Saudi Arabia, King Salmon is 0:13:38.916 --> 0:13:41.436 the son. Yes, he's the son of the founder. So 0:13:41.436 --> 0:13:44.996 we're still technically speaking, yes, we're still on the sons. 0:13:45.156 --> 0:13:47.516 That's what the original founder. We're not quite done yet, 0:13:47.596 --> 0:13:50.756 that's right. And what happened is, as things do happen, 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:54.276 people die, and so a lot of the sons have died, 0:13:54.316 --> 0:13:58.036 and many of the principal architects of the system have 0:13:58.196 --> 0:14:01.916 passed away. King Salmon is one of the last great 0:14:02.436 --> 0:14:05.316 sons and of the founder, and one of the great 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:08.916 pillars of the of the system. He was, for instance, 0:14:08.956 --> 0:14:12.156 the governor of the of the largest province, the province 0:14:12.156 --> 0:14:14.956 of Riad, for you know, many decades. He was the 0:14:15.076 --> 0:14:20.236 enforcer of the family's discipline. Um. He was the keeper 0:14:20.356 --> 0:14:22.636 of the history of the family and of the kingdom. 0:14:22.716 --> 0:14:26.196 He's you know, he's a formidable person. The present king 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:29.116 someone he decided that we're going to move away from 0:14:29.156 --> 0:14:33.836 this old system of brothers and consensus to one of primogenitor, 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:37.476 where you know, his son will become although not he 0:14:37.716 --> 0:14:40.436 chose not to not to choose his eldest son. Why not? 0:14:40.516 --> 0:14:42.436 What was wrong with the eldest son. It's not clear. 0:14:42.796 --> 0:14:46.716 It's not clear why he chose U Mohammad bin Salman MBS. 0:14:46.836 --> 0:14:48.796 MBS is the son of the third wife, is the 0:14:48.796 --> 0:14:51.556 eldest of the of the children of the third wife 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:54.956 of the king. And you know, there are rumors as 0:14:54.956 --> 0:14:58.076 to why. One is that he saw in him something 0:14:58.476 --> 0:15:00.676 that he didn't see in the other sons. You know, 0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:04.236 going back to a Saudi um saying again to do 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:09.756 it again to another number two, yes, another, often saying 0:15:10.356 --> 0:15:12.916 in Saudi Arabia they say that the father is the 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:15.916 falconer of his sons. In other words, the father knows 0:15:15.956 --> 0:15:19.356 which of his sons is the best hunting falcon, and 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:22.396 so it seems that he has chosen emy. Clearly, he 0:15:22.396 --> 0:15:24.876 has chosen MBS as the best of the falcons. I 0:15:24.876 --> 0:15:26.796 don't think I should tell my kids that I am 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:28.636 your falconer. I don't know. I don't know how well 0:15:28.676 --> 0:15:31.596 that would that would go over, but it makes sense. Yes, okay, 0:15:31.636 --> 0:15:36.156 So the stage is now set. King Salman says, we're 0:15:36.276 --> 0:15:39.676 changing the order. Instead of going to one of my brothers, 0:15:39.836 --> 0:15:41.836 and there are a handful of them left, I am 0:15:41.836 --> 0:15:45.836 going to designate my son, Mahmad bin Saman MBS as 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:49.156 the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. He is going to 0:15:49.156 --> 0:15:51.236 get the torne. He's going to be the first king 0:15:51.276 --> 0:15:54.956 of Saudi Arabia who was not either of modern Saudi Arabia, 0:15:54.996 --> 0:15:58.516 who's not either King Abdlasi's himself or one of his sons. Correct. 0:15:58.796 --> 0:16:05.396 And that leads to something of a sense of dissatisfaction 0:16:05.596 --> 0:16:08.516 among the other brothers because he's breaking the chain of 0:16:08.556 --> 0:16:13.676 succession is breaking all the rules, and in response, MBS 0:16:13.876 --> 0:16:19.476 has to take decisive action involving the Ritz Carlton Hotel. 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:22.316 So yes, tell us from this perspective, So what was 0:16:22.396 --> 0:16:25.916 going on? So I think you know, to understand the Ritz, 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:28.876 you have to understand also that this is an absolutist 0:16:28.916 --> 0:16:32.476 monarchy and absolute monarchy. So the king has final say 0:16:32.476 --> 0:16:36.036 in all matters. And this king is king. While all 0:16:36.076 --> 0:16:39.876 the key brothers who would have in the past stood 0:16:39.876 --> 0:16:43.196 in his way tried, you know, whose views mattered are 0:16:43.236 --> 0:16:45.036 no longer around, right, who were supposed to but they 0:16:45.036 --> 0:16:48.436 were also so the older brothers dead, the older most 0:16:48.436 --> 0:16:51.676 senior ones are gone, so he had room for maneuver. 0:16:51.756 --> 0:16:54.036 He had much more room for maneuver. He's an absolute monarch, 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:56.876 and everyone in Saudi Arabia ultimately looks to the king. 0:16:57.036 --> 0:16:59.516 So the king's will, just like in the case of 0:16:59.556 --> 0:17:03.276 Louis the fourteenth is final and we'll determine the nature 0:17:03.316 --> 0:17:07.636 of succession. Now, what MBS does is he also sees 0:17:07.716 --> 0:17:13.436 a system that is incredibly corrupt, in which many princes 0:17:14.236 --> 0:17:19.276 but also businessmen and bureaucrats and administrators are involved in 0:17:20.036 --> 0:17:23.716 all kinds of schemes where you know, the government gets 0:17:23.716 --> 0:17:27.916 overcharged on contracts, all kinds of kickbacks take place, and 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:30.676 NBS wants to show that there's a new sheriff in 0:17:30.676 --> 0:17:33.996 town and that that old system is no longer going 0:17:34.076 --> 0:17:38.316 to function, and you know, feeding at the trough, you know, 0:17:38.396 --> 0:17:41.636 where the government is paying ten to twenty percent extra 0:17:42.116 --> 0:17:45.396 just because of this corruption on all its contracts is 0:17:45.436 --> 0:17:48.876 going to stop. So he has this arrest of hundreds 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:53.476 of people, many of them princes. So these are his cousins, cousins, uncles, 0:17:53.876 --> 0:17:56.756 and he you know, he has them, you know, put 0:17:56.796 --> 0:17:59.716 in as well as bureaucrats as well as businessmen. You know, 0:17:59.716 --> 0:18:03.796 all the entire kind of elite that managed the system 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.316 gets put into the Ritz Carlton and here in the West, 0:18:07.396 --> 0:18:10.956 everyone saw this as a shakedown on for MBS to 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:15.756 benefit personally from the money. When I asked around about like, well, 0:18:15.836 --> 0:18:18.876 is he trying to wrench it himself? And one Saudi said, 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:21.716 but you know, he controls the river of money. I mean, 0:18:21.716 --> 0:18:24.116 he is in charge, you know, he is the state 0:18:24.236 --> 0:18:27.636 is the state, so he can take any money he 0:18:27.676 --> 0:18:29.876 wants from the state already, So it's not it's not. 0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:33.156 It was something else was. So I think it was 0:18:33.196 --> 0:18:37.116 two things. One was to destroy that older system of 0:18:37.156 --> 0:18:40.676 corruption and perhaps create a new one with him at 0:18:40.676 --> 0:18:43.356 the center and centralized, yeah, you know, or a much 0:18:43.396 --> 0:18:47.716 smaller one, um, but certainly kind of a change in 0:18:47.916 --> 0:18:51.436 hierarchy and power. And it was about getting some of 0:18:51.476 --> 0:18:55.116 that money back into the public treasury. And I think 0:18:55.156 --> 0:18:57.596 he managed to do some of that. If the money 0:18:57.676 --> 0:19:00.756 was in country, the money that was overseas was almost 0:19:00.796 --> 0:19:04.636 impossible to bring back, and according to reports, they weren't gentle, 0:19:05.236 --> 0:19:08.316 even with very senior members of the royal family. Yeah, 0:19:08.356 --> 0:19:10.916 it's possible. You know. Firstly, you have to remember that 0:19:11.316 --> 0:19:14.316 anything you remember, the royal family has never confronted a 0:19:14.356 --> 0:19:18.356 situation where someone says to them you can't have this, 0:19:18.476 --> 0:19:20.396 or you can't. You can't you know us, you can't 0:19:20.476 --> 0:19:23.396 leave your right, So I think so, I do think 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:26.996 there was coercion that was used of different kinds. I 0:19:27.076 --> 0:19:30.276 have no proof that torture was used, but it wouldn't 0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:36.756 surprise me, right, and it's clear that it was very effective. Yeah. So, 0:19:37.716 --> 0:19:41.756 as Mohammed bin Salman MBS consolidates power, he's also trying 0:19:42.316 --> 0:19:46.076 to change something about the authority of religion. At the 0:19:46.196 --> 0:19:49.796 same time, Yes, so we hear about women driving, which 0:19:49.836 --> 0:19:53.076 is something that the traditional religious scholars have been blocking 0:19:53.116 --> 0:19:55.716 for many, many years. How is he doing that and 0:19:56.076 --> 0:19:59.396 how real is that? You know? Sometimes critics say, well, 0:19:59.516 --> 0:20:02.476 Mohammad bin Salman needs to be liked abroad, he needs 0:20:02.516 --> 0:20:04.996 support from the Trump administration and or to consolidate power. 0:20:05.356 --> 0:20:08.236 So he's throwing in the West some bones by saying, oh, 0:20:08.356 --> 0:20:11.636 we'll liberalize for women, will let them drive. But there's 0:20:11.636 --> 0:20:14.596 still a guardianship system in the country where women in 0:20:14.716 --> 0:20:17.756 theory can't travel or you know, make important life decisions 0:20:17.796 --> 0:20:19.996 without the agreement of a male guardian. So it's all 0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:23.836 superficial talk. Talk about a what he's doing, and be 0:20:24.116 --> 0:20:27.156 how real it is. So I think again, to understand 0:20:27.556 --> 0:20:31.076 the changes that he's affecting, you have to understand the 0:20:31.116 --> 0:20:34.156 relationship that the Saudi state had with religion, and for 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:36.596 that to understand that, you have to go back to 0:20:36.636 --> 0:20:41.476 the Cold War. So during the Cold War, the Saudis 0:20:41.516 --> 0:20:48.196 were under immediate threat from other ideologies, namely communist ideology, socialism, 0:20:48.316 --> 0:20:52.116 Arab nationalism from Egypt, from Syria, and so on, and 0:20:52.316 --> 0:20:55.836 coups were taking place where military officers were toppling dynastic 0:20:56.276 --> 0:21:01.156 monarchies in Libya and Iraq, almost anywhere and everywhere in 0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:03.116 the Middle East. It was a bad period for kings 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:05.756 in the Middle that's right. And so the Americans who 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:09.916 were at war with in a Cold War against the Communists, 0:21:09.956 --> 0:21:12.396 basically come to the Saudis in late nineteen fifties under 0:21:12.396 --> 0:21:15.156 Presdent Eisenhower and say to the Saudis, you know, why 0:21:15.156 --> 0:21:18.796 don't you mobilize Islam as a political ideology against the left. 0:21:19.396 --> 0:21:22.516 And initially the Saudis we're doing in God we trust by, 0:21:22.556 --> 0:21:24.556 don't you guys try the same, That's right. And the 0:21:24.596 --> 0:21:27.436 Saudis initially didn't have the wherewithal in the resources to 0:21:27.516 --> 0:21:30.556 do this. They would have liked to. But it's only 0:21:30.596 --> 0:21:33.116 in the sixties, when a lot of the Muslim brothers 0:21:33.196 --> 0:21:36.796 who are members of an Islamist organization are being persecuted 0:21:36.836 --> 0:21:40.756 and discriminated against in countries like Egyptirian Iraq end up 0:21:40.796 --> 0:21:43.956 seeking refuge in Arabia, that the Saudis have the manpower 0:21:43.996 --> 0:21:47.116 the human capital to start using Islam as a political 0:21:47.156 --> 0:21:52.276 ideology against their ideological opponents outside. The always used it internally, 0:21:52.316 --> 0:21:54.796 but they didn't have the manpower. They didn't have the educated, 0:21:54.916 --> 0:21:58.596 skillful peoples that moved through the arable world spreading their message, 0:21:58.596 --> 0:22:01.676 and it became, you know, absolutely central to how Saudi 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:04.196 Arabia defended itself, and in fact it got ramped up 0:22:04.236 --> 0:22:06.636 at the end of the nineteen seventies of the Irania Revolution, 0:22:07.076 --> 0:22:11.276 which was also an Islamic revolution and sought to undermine 0:22:11.276 --> 0:22:15.116 Saudi legitimacy. So the Saudi's turned up the volume on 0:22:15.476 --> 0:22:18.636 Islam as a political ideology and as patrons of this ideology. 0:22:19.116 --> 0:22:22.076 So this is a kind of a Cold War story. 0:22:22.276 --> 0:22:25.876 It's also a story of confronting Iran, and of course 0:22:26.036 --> 0:22:28.356 with the Cold War, the culmination of that alliance with 0:22:28.356 --> 0:22:31.676 the US using Islamis ideology was an Alfhanistan and that 0:22:32.076 --> 0:22:35.276 ended up producing al Qaida, which is an unintended consequence. 0:22:35.556 --> 0:22:40.116 So MBS against this background, MBS says, you know, this 0:22:40.236 --> 0:22:43.956 alliance with Islamists using Islam as you know, has brought 0:22:43.996 --> 0:22:47.236 us nothing but grief. It produced al Qaida. The Americans 0:22:47.276 --> 0:22:49.076 are not blaming us for it, when in fact we 0:22:49.076 --> 0:22:51.596 were allies with the Americans, and so I don't want 0:22:51.596 --> 0:22:53.436 to have anything to do with it. I want to 0:22:53.516 --> 0:22:57.436 just give up Islamism completely and moreover, it's creating a 0:22:57.516 --> 0:23:01.036 society here in Saudi Arabia where no foreigner wants to 0:23:01.076 --> 0:23:03.756 come and work here. And I want to be like Dubai. 0:23:03.876 --> 0:23:06.076 I want to be dynamic. I want to create a 0:23:06.196 --> 0:23:09.516 knoledge economy. I want you know, people to want to 0:23:09.516 --> 0:23:11.996 come here. And for that to happen, I need to 0:23:12.036 --> 0:23:15.316 socially liberalize. I need for women to be in the workplace. 0:23:15.716 --> 0:23:18.956 I need to perhaps allow for alcohol to be consumed, 0:23:19.396 --> 0:23:22.396 and I need a lot more kind of live and 0:23:22.476 --> 0:23:26.996 let live, which you know is impossible under the old dispensation. 0:23:27.556 --> 0:23:30.916 And so I'm breaking with that passed. So on that view, 0:23:31.196 --> 0:23:33.956