1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:25,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's September. Fall is here, and that means back 2 00:00:25,036 --> 00:00:28,356 Speaker 1: to school. My college students have already arrived on campus 3 00:00:28,436 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: at Yale, so it's time to say goodbye to beach 4 00:00:30,996 --> 00:00:33,516 Speaker 1: days with a good book in late summer nights, and 5 00:00:33,596 --> 00:00:36,956 Speaker 1: hello to lecture halls, lesson plans, and an ever growing 6 00:00:36,996 --> 00:00:40,636 Speaker 1: list of priorities. The end of summer often feels bittersweet 7 00:00:41,076 --> 00:00:43,476 Speaker 1: if we're not careful, Autumn life can start to move 8 00:00:43,636 --> 00:00:46,516 Speaker 1: very quickly. So as we switch into this new season, 9 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:48,916 Speaker 1: I want to help you find a little more happiness. 10 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 1: And that's why I want to spend the next few 11 00:00:51,036 --> 00:00:54,556 Speaker 1: episodes sharing all the incredible insights I learned from stuff 12 00:00:54,556 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 1: I had a chance to read on my summer break. 13 00:00:57,076 --> 00:00:59,556 Speaker 1: In this upcoming season of the Happiness Lab, we'll be 14 00:00:59,676 --> 00:01:02,036 Speaker 1: diving into some of my favorite new books from twenty 15 00:01:02,076 --> 00:01:05,236 Speaker 1: twenty five. We'll hear from brilliant authors whose work can 16 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:07,796 Speaker 1: teach us lots of things that are relevant for feeling better, 17 00:01:08,356 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: like how to make better decisions, how to improve our 18 00:01:10,796 --> 00:01:13,796 Speaker 1: work life balance, and even how to turn scary things 19 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: into sources of joy. And today we're focused on a 20 00:01:16,796 --> 00:01:19,396 Speaker 1: question that I struggle with a lot, how to say 21 00:01:19,476 --> 00:01:22,876 Speaker 1: no more often and how to mean it. Today's installment 22 00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:25,316 Speaker 1: of my Favorite books of twenty twenty five is by 23 00:01:25,356 --> 00:01:29,356 Speaker 1: a physician turned organizational psychologist who's done some great research 24 00:01:29,436 --> 00:01:31,796 Speaker 1: on how to stay true to yourself and your values 25 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 1: even when it feels easier to stay quiet and go 26 00:01:34,836 --> 00:01:35,356 Speaker 1: with the flow. 27 00:01:36,036 --> 00:01:40,436 Speaker 2: Hello, I'm doctor Sinitasa. I'm a professor at Cornell University 28 00:01:40,636 --> 00:01:43,636 Speaker 2: and the author of Defy, The Power of No in 29 00:01:43,676 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 2: a World that demands Yes. 30 00:01:45,436 --> 00:01:48,316 Speaker 1: So I want to start with how you define defiance? 31 00:01:48,436 --> 00:01:49,596 Speaker 1: What does that word mean to you? 32 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 2: If you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance, 33 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:57,156 Speaker 2: it says to defy is to challenge the power of 34 00:01:57,156 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 2: someone else, like openly and boldly. And I thought that 35 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:06,516 Speaker 2: was really too narrow and it doesn't really honor our agency. 36 00:02:07,036 --> 00:02:09,956 Speaker 2: I don't usually disagree with the Oxford English you know, 37 00:02:10,076 --> 00:02:13,236 Speaker 2: I grew up in the UK, but in this case 38 00:02:13,316 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 2: I did disagree. My definition of defiance is that to 39 00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:21,756 Speaker 2: defy is simply to act in accordance with your true values, 40 00:02:22,076 --> 00:02:25,276 Speaker 2: especially when there is pressure to do otherwise, and that 41 00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:31,556 Speaker 2: transforms defines from this negative connotation to a positive, almost 42 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:32,996 Speaker 2: pro social act. 43 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:37,636 Speaker 1: In society today, Sunita's work explores this kind of positive resistance, 44 00:02:38,076 --> 00:02:41,796 Speaker 1: but she wasn't always such a champion of nonconformity. Sunita 45 00:02:41,916 --> 00:02:45,756 Speaker 1: was raised by Indian immigrant parents in Yorkshire, England. Back then, 46 00:02:45,916 --> 00:02:48,796 Speaker 1: she was way more focused on blending in than standing out. 47 00:02:49,356 --> 00:02:53,636 Speaker 2: I grew up with a masterclass in compliance. I remember 48 00:02:53,676 --> 00:02:55,796 Speaker 2: asking my dad when I was quite young, what does 49 00:02:55,796 --> 00:02:59,236 Speaker 2: my name Sinita mean? And he said in Sanskript, Sinita 50 00:02:59,316 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 2: means good. And I mostly lived up to that. And 51 00:03:03,156 --> 00:03:08,156 Speaker 2: I interpreted being good as being polite, doing what I 52 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:13,516 Speaker 2: was told, not quite authority and obeying. And so I 53 00:03:13,516 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 2: thought anything that went again, if that was being defiant, 54 00:03:16,276 --> 00:03:18,556 Speaker 2: and that was bad. So I made this equation of 55 00:03:18,596 --> 00:03:21,636 Speaker 2: compliance equals good and definance equals bad. 56 00:03:22,076 --> 00:03:24,076 Speaker 1: Lots of people grew up with the same ideas about 57 00:03:24,076 --> 00:03:28,276 Speaker 1: compliance that Sunida's describing. I know I did. I definitely 58 00:03:28,316 --> 00:03:30,916 Speaker 1: tried to be the obedient kid. I always wanted to 59 00:03:30,916 --> 00:03:33,716 Speaker 1: please my parents and my teachers and pretty much every 60 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:36,676 Speaker 1: other authority figure in my life, which kind of makes 61 00:03:36,716 --> 00:03:40,996 Speaker 1: evolutionary sense, right. Without some level of compliance, society would 62 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:43,716 Speaker 1: fall apart. So it's not surprising that so many of 63 00:03:43,796 --> 00:03:46,236 Speaker 1: us feel a natural poll to conform I. 64 00:03:46,156 --> 00:03:48,276 Speaker 2: Mean, one of the reasons why I say that we're 65 00:03:48,276 --> 00:03:51,396 Speaker 2: wired to comply is that we do get rewarded for compliance, 66 00:03:51,476 --> 00:03:54,636 Speaker 2: you know, as children and even as adults. In workplaces, 67 00:03:54,716 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 2: we're expected to be a good employee, which means again 68 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:01,116 Speaker 2: doing what you're told and towing you know, the party 69 00:04:01,196 --> 00:04:03,876 Speaker 2: line in a way. If you do what you're told 70 00:04:03,916 --> 00:04:07,276 Speaker 2: to do, then people like it and it meets everybody 71 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:11,196 Speaker 2: else's expectations. It could give us a dopamine rise, it 72 00:04:11,196 --> 00:04:14,836 Speaker 2: could make us feel great. But the problem comes when 73 00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:19,316 Speaker 2: it's not good for us to comply, when it's actually 74 00:04:19,556 --> 00:04:22,876 Speaker 2: bad for us to be so good and compliant. That's 75 00:04:22,916 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 2: when the problems start arising in that our compliance is 76 00:04:27,116 --> 00:04:29,916 Speaker 2: going to hurt ourselves or it's going to hurt other people. 77 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 2: And here we need to learn how to defy, because 78 00:04:33,316 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 2: if we've only been trained in compliance as children, then 79 00:04:36,596 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 2: it becomes really difficult when we become adults to learn 80 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:40,356 Speaker 2: that skill set. 81 00:04:40,996 --> 00:04:43,276 Speaker 1: You've talked about some of the dangers of compliance being 82 00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:44,436 Speaker 1: at the personal level. 83 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:46,876 Speaker 2: What do you mean though, My first career was as 84 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:50,316 Speaker 2: a position in the UK, so at the personal level. 85 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:52,956 Speaker 2: You know, when I started looking at this, what really 86 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:55,716 Speaker 2: shocked me as a junior physician was first of all, 87 00:04:55,756 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 2: I was seeing patients agree to treatments and procedures that 88 00:04:59,396 --> 00:05:04,076 Speaker 2: they didn't necessarily want or would be even good for them. 89 00:05:04,436 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 2: I saw junior doctors like myself not being able to 90 00:05:07,956 --> 00:05:11,156 Speaker 2: say anything when we know notice people making an error. 91 00:05:11,636 --> 00:05:14,156 Speaker 2: And in fact, one survey found that nine out of 92 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:17,596 Speaker 2: ten healthcare workers, most of them nurses, do not speak 93 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 2: up when they see a colleague or a physician making 94 00:05:21,876 --> 00:05:22,476 Speaker 2: a mistake. 95 00:05:22,756 --> 00:05:26,516 Speaker 1: Wow, nine out of ten. That sounds very dangerous, I know. 96 00:05:26,676 --> 00:05:30,116 Speaker 2: And these are life and death situations and people are struggling. 97 00:05:30,676 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be. Like some of my research 98 00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 2: when I started delving into it in terms of compliance, 99 00:05:35,716 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 2: even in very simple experiments from like a stranger coming 100 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:42,476 Speaker 2: along and offering you one of two different options and 101 00:05:42,676 --> 00:05:46,756 Speaker 2: recommending the inferior one. In certain conditions, we see compliance 102 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 2: as high as eighty five percent, and people don't want this. 103 00:05:50,476 --> 00:05:52,796 Speaker 2: If they're allowed to make the decision in private, or 104 00:05:52,836 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 2: if they're not giving any advice, then over ninety percent 105 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:58,716 Speaker 2: will choose the other options. So what is it? Why 106 00:05:58,716 --> 00:06:02,116 Speaker 2: are we so compliant? And it's because of this aspect 107 00:06:02,156 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 2: of being socialized that it's a good thing to do, 108 00:06:05,116 --> 00:06:08,636 Speaker 2: and just feeling very uncomfortable and feeling social pressure from 109 00:06:08,676 --> 00:06:09,116 Speaker 2: other people. 110 00:06:10,036 --> 00:06:12,196 Speaker 1: You just mentioned this idea of anxiety, and I know 111 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 1: that's one of the other reasons you talk about for 112 00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:18,836 Speaker 1: why people comply too much. Explain this idea of insinuation anxiety. 113 00:06:19,356 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 2: Insinuation anxiety is a distinct type of anxiety that we 114 00:06:23,196 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 2: feel when we become concerned that if we don't go 115 00:06:27,396 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 2: along with somebody's order or suggestion or even expectation, that 116 00:06:32,556 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 2: it sends a negative evaluation of that person to that person. 117 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:40,636 Speaker 2: So it basically signals that the person cannot be trusted, 118 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:44,916 Speaker 2: is incompetent, is biased, is even sexist or racist. These 119 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:47,996 Speaker 2: are things we don't want to imply about anyone else, 120 00:06:48,396 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 2: and so in order to not send this negative evaluation, 121 00:06:52,236 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 2: we end up not saying anything. It keeps us compliant 122 00:06:55,036 --> 00:06:57,756 Speaker 2: and silent. We end up going along with something that 123 00:06:57,796 --> 00:06:59,796 Speaker 2: our boss tells us to do. We don't speak up 124 00:06:59,796 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 2: when somebody say something that we think is wrong because 125 00:07:02,996 --> 00:07:06,516 Speaker 2: it's so difficult for us to insinuate or imply that 126 00:07:06,676 --> 00:07:11,876 Speaker 2: somebody cannot be trusted. So that aversive emotional state that 127 00:07:11,916 --> 00:07:14,636 Speaker 2: we have is actually quite powerful and It comes up 128 00:07:14,676 --> 00:07:18,956 Speaker 2: in small situations such as you could be at the 129 00:07:18,996 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 2: hairdressers and they're saying, you know, trust me with this 130 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:24,836 Speaker 2: new cut, and they're cutting away and cutting away, and 131 00:07:24,876 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 2: you're thinking, no, no, no, just stop, but you find 132 00:07:28,436 --> 00:07:31,516 Speaker 2: it very hard if you like me, to actually say stop. 133 00:07:31,556 --> 00:07:34,036 Speaker 2: And then you might just even pay them and tip 134 00:07:34,116 --> 00:07:37,796 Speaker 2: them and leave and then cry at home like what's happened. 135 00:07:38,956 --> 00:07:41,316 Speaker 2: So it can happen in those small steak situations, but 136 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:44,916 Speaker 2: it can happen in those much larger stake situations. So 137 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:48,556 Speaker 2: it could be the reason why I mentioned that nurses 138 00:07:48,716 --> 00:07:52,676 Speaker 2: don't speak up to physicians or doctors when they see 139 00:07:52,796 --> 00:07:55,956 Speaker 2: them making a mistake. It could be why co pilots 140 00:07:55,996 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 2: don't speak up to their pilots when they make an error, 141 00:07:59,156 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 2: like in these life and death situations. This insinuation anxiety 142 00:08:03,876 --> 00:08:08,836 Speaker 2: can be really powerful because it becomes so difficult for us, 143 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:11,916 Speaker 2: and for some people more than others. Become so difficult 144 00:08:11,956 --> 00:08:15,956 Speaker 2: for us to send that negative evaluation to someone else, 145 00:08:15,996 --> 00:08:18,276 Speaker 2: to say that they can't be trusted or that they're wrong. 146 00:08:18,516 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of also some of the more personal costs, 147 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 1: like kind of not just what it feels like, but 148 00:08:22,556 --> 00:08:24,596 Speaker 1: what it does to our values too, So how does 149 00:08:24,636 --> 00:08:27,436 Speaker 1: complying too much affect our values and our sense of purpose? 150 00:08:28,516 --> 00:08:32,316 Speaker 2: When we think about what our values are, we value 151 00:08:32,396 --> 00:08:35,196 Speaker 2: so much integrity and honesty, but when it comes to 152 00:08:35,236 --> 00:08:38,156 Speaker 2: our day to day behavior, we don't implement that. So 153 00:08:38,196 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 2: there's this gap between who we think we are and 154 00:08:41,236 --> 00:08:44,876 Speaker 2: what we actually do. And that is what I'm trying 155 00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:49,276 Speaker 2: to sort of decrease, that gap between how much we 156 00:08:49,356 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 2: believe our values to be influencing us and then how 157 00:08:53,196 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 2: we actually behave. So, if we value integrity or benevolence 158 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 2: or justice or compassion, why is it that we can't 159 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:03,796 Speaker 2: behave in that way? And this is where we get 160 00:09:03,836 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 2: that social influence. We don't know how to stay in 161 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:11,076 Speaker 2: alignment with our values when it actually comes to that moment, 162 00:09:11,236 --> 00:09:14,956 Speaker 2: we freeze or we just don't put have values into action, 163 00:09:15,196 --> 00:09:17,276 Speaker 2: and we need to learn how to do that, and. 164 00:09:17,236 --> 00:09:19,036 Speaker 1: That seems to have a big effect on our happiness. 165 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:20,196 Speaker 1: You know, So much of what we know from the 166 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:23,276 Speaker 1: positive psychology literature is that it's kind of acting in 167 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:25,956 Speaker 1: alignment with our values that seems to really matter. They're 168 00:09:25,996 --> 00:09:28,196 Speaker 1: just kind of feeling just like not the sense of 169 00:09:28,236 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 1: dissonance that like, I'm acting in this way that doesn't 170 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:32,756 Speaker 1: really fit with what I care about. So it seems 171 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: like this act of complying too much must have some 172 00:09:34,836 --> 00:09:37,236 Speaker 1: big implications for just our overall well being. 173 00:09:37,596 --> 00:09:40,356 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, people always think about the costs of 174 00:09:40,396 --> 00:09:43,956 Speaker 2: defiance when they're thinking about, oh, you know, it's too hard, 175 00:09:43,956 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 2: because it's going to cost me my job, it's going 176 00:09:45,996 --> 00:09:48,476 Speaker 2: to cost me a relationship. But what they don't think 177 00:09:48,476 --> 00:09:51,436 Speaker 2: about is the cost of compliance. And if you're constantly 178 00:09:51,476 --> 00:09:54,276 Speaker 2: bowing your head to other people, if you're constantly disregarding 179 00:09:54,316 --> 00:09:57,956 Speaker 2: your values, then it does take a toll on us, 180 00:09:58,036 --> 00:10:02,276 Speaker 2: you know, psychologically, virtually, emotionally, and even physically. So in 181 00:10:02,516 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 2: that like when you have that chronic compliance, it can 182 00:10:05,356 --> 00:10:08,556 Speaker 2: eat a way at your soul quite a bit. And 183 00:10:09,156 --> 00:10:13,596 Speaker 2: spoken to people who have you know, burnout, stress, anxiety, 184 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 2: chronic inflammation, all of these things because they could not 185 00:10:17,916 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 2: implement their values. 186 00:10:19,916 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 1: And so those are some of the personal costs of 187 00:10:21,956 --> 00:10:24,356 Speaker 1: kind of complying too much. What are some of the 188 00:10:24,396 --> 00:10:26,956 Speaker 1: societal costs? And I'm guessing based on the fact that 189 00:10:26,996 --> 00:10:29,276 Speaker 1: you know, in your own clinical practice, you saw you know, 190 00:10:29,356 --> 00:10:31,716 Speaker 1: ninety percent of nurses not speaking up when they saw 191 00:10:31,756 --> 00:10:34,636 Speaker 1: something going wrong, eighty percent of people kind of complying 192 00:10:34,636 --> 00:10:37,836 Speaker 1: in these awful situations. Like, what's the real societal toll 193 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:37,996 Speaker 1: of that? 194 00:10:39,076 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's huge because history even tells us 195 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 2: like that, there's terrible consequences of just going along with 196 00:10:48,476 --> 00:10:51,556 Speaker 2: things because we're afraid to speak up or we don't 197 00:10:51,596 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 2: know how to speak up even if we want to, 198 00:10:54,196 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 2: And so society as a whole, we could just descend 199 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:03,236 Speaker 2: into high levels of compliance with things that we really 200 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 2: feel very strongly about but we can't enact. And that 201 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:11,516 Speaker 2: sort of suppression or oppression is something that nobody really 202 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:15,516 Speaker 2: wants or votes for in a way, but it comes 203 00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:18,876 Speaker 2: along if we keep silent and we don't say anything 204 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:20,076 Speaker 2: or we don't take action. 205 00:11:20,676 --> 00:11:23,796 Speaker 1: Any of your worst examples of compliance and history that 206 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:25,156 Speaker 1: have negatively affected us. 207 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:28,836 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the sort of most infamous series 208 00:11:28,876 --> 00:11:33,316 Speaker 2: of studies on compliance was the Milgram experiments, and that 209 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:38,116 Speaker 2: was really done to investigate why Nazis behaved that the 210 00:11:38,116 --> 00:11:40,236 Speaker 2: way that they did in World War Two, and they 211 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 2: came up with sort of phrases such as I was 212 00:11:42,636 --> 00:11:45,396 Speaker 2: just following orders, and that is I think one of 213 00:11:45,396 --> 00:11:48,916 Speaker 2: the worst examples that we see time and time again. 214 00:11:49,116 --> 00:11:51,436 Speaker 2: Is that you know this idea of I was just 215 00:11:51,516 --> 00:11:55,476 Speaker 2: following orders, displacing our responsibility onto someone else. 216 00:11:56,476 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: Ah. Yes. The Milgram experiments a set of studies that 217 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:02,796 Speaker 1: are now infamous for revealing the dark side of human nature. 218 00:12:03,596 --> 00:12:06,196 Speaker 1: The Milgram studies are often cited as proof of the 219 00:12:06,276 --> 00:12:09,636 Speaker 1: dangers of blind obedience, but Sunita argue us that they 220 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:13,356 Speaker 1: show something different. What does she think these notorious experiments 221 00:12:13,396 --> 00:12:16,396 Speaker 1: really tell us? Well, we'll find out when the Happiness 222 00:12:16,436 --> 00:12:29,676 Speaker 1: Lab returns from the break. Cornell professors, who Nita saw, 223 00:12:29,956 --> 00:12:31,876 Speaker 1: was on a mission to teach the world how to 224 00:12:31,876 --> 00:12:34,956 Speaker 1: defy better, how we can stick to our values, even 225 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:37,996 Speaker 1: when that might be awkward, scary, or disappointing to others. 226 00:12:38,676 --> 00:12:41,876 Speaker 1: Sunita first began studying defiance as a young medical student, 227 00:12:42,396 --> 00:12:45,516 Speaker 1: a career path that for her, perhaps ironically, was an 228 00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:46,476 Speaker 1: act of compliance. 229 00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 2: I remember thinking at the time whether medicine was the 230 00:12:50,156 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 2: right thing for me, and I got told, will you 231 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 2: have the grades? What else would you do? It is 232 00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 2: the best thing you can do, And so I did, 233 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 2: follow by everybody else's expectations and even society's expectations, that 234 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:03,476 Speaker 2: being a doctor is the best thing that you can do, 235 00:13:03,516 --> 00:13:05,236 Speaker 2: and I went to medical school. 236 00:13:05,316 --> 00:13:08,596 Speaker 1: But Sunita wasn't completely compliant. She still wanted to carve 237 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:12,156 Speaker 1: out something for herself, so she took some courses in psychology, 238 00:13:12,556 --> 00:13:14,836 Speaker 1: the field she actually felt passionate about. 239 00:13:15,276 --> 00:13:19,436 Speaker 2: And that's when I came across Stanley Milgraham's experiments that 240 00:13:19,476 --> 00:13:25,196 Speaker 2: were conducted in the early nineteen sixties at Yale. 241 00:13:25,556 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 1: That's right, Milgrim's legendary studies on the banality of evil 242 00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:31,636 Speaker 1: were carried out at the very same institution where I 243 00:13:31,716 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 1: teach today. Like Sunita, I've always found Milgrim's experiments to 244 00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:39,396 Speaker 1: be endlessly fascinating, especially when you not only read about 245 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:43,276 Speaker 1: his studies, but actually listened to the original experimental recordings, 246 00:13:43,796 --> 00:13:46,996 Speaker 1: which they happen to have available in the library at Yale. 247 00:13:47,516 --> 00:13:49,156 Speaker 1: Here's a taste that's normal. 248 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 3: Jem me out of here. 249 00:13:50,716 --> 00:13:52,156 Speaker 4: I told you I have trouble. 250 00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:53,396 Speaker 3: You're sorry to bother me. 251 00:13:53,476 --> 00:13:54,436 Speaker 2: Now keep me. 252 00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:55,236 Speaker 3: Out in her fleet. 253 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 1: In her books, Needa describes Milgram's most well known study. 254 00:13:59,396 --> 00:14:01,716 Speaker 1: He brought forty men between the ages of twenty to 255 00:14:01,756 --> 00:14:05,196 Speaker 1: fifty into the lab. The men were recruited through newspaper 256 00:14:05,196 --> 00:14:09,076 Speaker 1: ads and direct mail solicitations. They represented a wide range 257 00:14:09,236 --> 00:14:13,556 Speaker 1: of occupations and education levels. In other words, the participants 258 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:16,396 Speaker 1: were what Milgram called ordinary individuals. 259 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:22,916 Speaker 2: Milgram really conducted these experiments because he wanted to investigate 260 00:14:22,956 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 2: whether this phrase of I was just following orders was 261 00:14:26,916 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 2: a psychological reality or not. And so he had participants 262 00:14:32,196 --> 00:14:35,676 Speaker 2: come in community members that thought that they were going 263 00:14:35,716 --> 00:14:40,516 Speaker 2: to take part in a learning experiment and whether giving 264 00:14:40,596 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 2: someone an electric shock helps them learn and improves their 265 00:14:44,356 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 2: memory far more than anything else. 266 00:14:47,556 --> 00:14:48,276 Speaker 3: One theory is. 267 00:14:48,196 --> 00:14:50,556 Speaker 4: That people learn things correctly whenever they get punished for 268 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:54,276 Speaker 4: making a mistake. Project is bringing together a number of 269 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 4: adults of different occupations and ages, and we're asking some 270 00:14:57,436 --> 00:14:59,316 Speaker 4: of them to be teachers and some to be learners. 271 00:15:00,676 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 4: We want to find out just what effect different people 272 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:04,676 Speaker 4: have on each other as teachers and learners, and also 273 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:07,796 Speaker 4: what effect punishment will have on learning in this situation. 274 00:15:08,276 --> 00:15:10,756 Speaker 2: And so participants would come in and they would be 275 00:15:10,876 --> 00:15:13,716 Speaker 2: introduced to someone else that they thought was a participant 276 00:15:13,836 --> 00:15:17,316 Speaker 2: but really was an actor who they saw being placed 277 00:15:17,636 --> 00:15:19,956 Speaker 2: in another room and kind of strapped to something that 278 00:15:20,076 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 2: looked like an electric chair. 279 00:15:22,076 --> 00:15:23,956 Speaker 4: And what I'm going to do is strap down your 280 00:15:24,076 --> 00:15:26,756 Speaker 4: arms to avoid any excessive movement on your part during 281 00:15:26,756 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 4: the experiment. 282 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:29,836 Speaker 2: And then they were taken to another room where they 283 00:15:29,876 --> 00:15:34,516 Speaker 2: sat in front of this elegant machine that had markings 284 00:15:34,556 --> 00:15:38,356 Speaker 2: from fifteen vaults going up in fifteen increments all the 285 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 2: way to four hundred and fifty volts that was labeled 286 00:15:41,716 --> 00:15:44,236 Speaker 2: XXX severe shock. 287 00:15:44,476 --> 00:15:46,356 Speaker 4: And you press one of the switches all the way down, 288 00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 4: the learner gets a shock. When you release it, the 289 00:15:48,996 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 4: shark stops. 290 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:50,756 Speaker 2: You see. 291 00:15:50,916 --> 00:15:51,476 Speaker 4: I like that. 292 00:15:52,956 --> 00:15:56,236 Speaker 2: So those participants were called teachers because they were reading 293 00:15:56,316 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 2: out word pairs to the learner in the other room, 294 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:03,716 Speaker 2: the actor, and if the learner got the word pair wrong, 295 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:07,116 Speaker 2: then the teacher would have to give an electric shock 296 00:16:07,236 --> 00:16:09,116 Speaker 2: and then increase in these increments. 297 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:14,676 Speaker 5: Incorrect, You'll now get a shock of seventy five vaults. 298 00:16:16,636 --> 00:16:17,956 Speaker 3: He kind of did some yelling in. 299 00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 1: There, continued. 300 00:16:21,436 --> 00:16:25,036 Speaker 3: Hard stone head bread work. 301 00:16:26,196 --> 00:16:28,556 Speaker 5: Incorrect. You'll now get a shock of one hundred and 302 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:33,316 Speaker 5: five vaults. Just how far can you go in this thing? 303 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:36,236 Speaker 3: As far as its necessary? What do you mean, as 304 00:16:36,236 --> 00:16:42,756 Speaker 3: far as it's necessary? Fleet the test, brave woman, soldier, 305 00:16:42,956 --> 00:16:52,556 Speaker 3: dog horse in correct, one hundred and fifty vaults. That's all. 306 00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:53,516 Speaker 3: Get me on here. 307 00:16:54,196 --> 00:16:56,396 Speaker 5: I told you I had trouble my heart's stelling to 308 00:16:56,396 --> 00:16:59,316 Speaker 5: bottle me, now, get me out of here, Please continue 309 00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:01,196 Speaker 5: your studying the body, to. 310 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 4: Go on, let me on. 311 00:17:04,196 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 3: I think we had to find out what's wrong in their. 312 00:17:05,916 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 2: First and if they protested, the per mentor who was 313 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,476 Speaker 2: in the room with them with a lab coat on, 314 00:17:12,956 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 2: would give them four prompts, which were, please go on. 315 00:17:17,676 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 2: The experiment requires you to continue. 316 00:17:20,276 --> 00:17:22,676 Speaker 3: The experiment requires that you continue to teach well. 317 00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:25,476 Speaker 4: The experiment might require that we continue, but I still 318 00:17:25,516 --> 00:17:27,996 Speaker 4: think we should find out what the condition of the 319 00:17:28,036 --> 00:17:28,516 Speaker 4: gentleman is. 320 00:17:28,676 --> 00:17:31,076 Speaker 2: It's absolutely essential that you continue. 321 00:17:31,196 --> 00:17:33,476 Speaker 3: It's absolutely essential that you continue. 322 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 2: And you have no choice. You must go on. And 323 00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 2: if after four prompts they didn't want to continue, then 324 00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 2: then the experiment would end. And in advance, a group 325 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:49,476 Speaker 2: of psychiatrists predicted that very few people would go up 326 00:17:49,676 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 2: to four hundred and fifty volts, But what Milgram found 327 00:17:54,036 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 2: was that two thirds of participants went up to the 328 00:17:58,036 --> 00:18:02,396 Speaker 2: extreme dangerous shock of four hundred and fifty vaults. And 329 00:18:02,956 --> 00:18:06,476 Speaker 2: he was astounded by those results. He was not expecting 330 00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:11,676 Speaker 2: them at all, and he all the participants who obeyed 331 00:18:12,276 --> 00:18:14,316 Speaker 2: and went up to four hundred and fifty bolts the 332 00:18:14,356 --> 00:18:19,396 Speaker 2: obedient participants and those who didn't, those that declined to 333 00:18:19,436 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 2: give the electric shock the defiant subjects. So again, now 334 00:18:24,196 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 2: we're seeing defiance as actually a positive aspect. You know, 335 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:31,276 Speaker 2: it's a positive thing that you're not going to harm 336 00:18:31,396 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 2: or potentially kill another human being by giving them a shocks. 337 00:18:34,996 --> 00:18:39,036 Speaker 2: But what fascinated me was I didn't think the people 338 00:18:39,076 --> 00:18:41,796 Speaker 2: that went up to four hundred and fifty bolts were 339 00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 2: moral imbeciles as Milgram described them, because if you look 340 00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:49,516 Speaker 2: at what they were actually saying, they were showing signs 341 00:18:49,516 --> 00:18:54,116 Speaker 2: of distress. They were questioning, can't stand or what if 342 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:56,516 Speaker 2: something happened, so they were stuttering. 343 00:18:56,436 --> 00:18:58,556 Speaker 3: The experiment requires that you continue teaching. 344 00:18:59,356 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 2: And if you look at their non urthal behavior as well, 345 00:19:02,356 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 2: they were sweating, they looked like they were in distress, 346 00:19:07,036 --> 00:19:14,996 Speaker 2: they had nervous laughter rang seventy five or g. And 347 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:18,556 Speaker 2: I recognized all those signs because there's many times I've 348 00:19:18,556 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 2: been in those situations where I've felt the same thing, 349 00:19:22,076 --> 00:19:24,916 Speaker 2: and so I recognize these are people who actually want 350 00:19:24,996 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 2: to defy, but they're finding it very difficult to do. 351 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:31,316 Speaker 1: So, yeah, it feels like they were just going through 352 00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:33,436 Speaker 1: this awful feeling that I know well too, which is 353 00:19:33,516 --> 00:19:36,236 Speaker 1: like they wanted to give a no, but they were 354 00:19:36,276 --> 00:19:39,476 Speaker 1: giving it yes, and that just gave them so much dissonance. 355 00:19:39,476 --> 00:19:40,596 Speaker 1: It just felt so yucky. 356 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:43,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, How many times have we been in that 357 00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 2: situation where we want to say no and we just 358 00:19:47,076 --> 00:19:50,476 Speaker 2: end up like swallowing our words. It's a horrible feeling. 359 00:19:51,516 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: One reason that people comply that Milgrim talked a lot 360 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:57,076 Speaker 1: about was this idea of the agentic state. What did 361 00:19:57,076 --> 00:19:59,596 Speaker 1: Milgrim mean by that and how should we understand it? 362 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 2: What Milgrim meant by the agentic state was that we 363 00:20:03,716 --> 00:20:06,796 Speaker 2: have become agents of somebody else, that we have given 364 00:20:06,836 --> 00:20:10,756 Speaker 2: away all our responsibility and our power to someone else. 365 00:20:11,396 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 2: Whatever they want, we are going to do, and we're 366 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 2: going to comply. And it might be because we think 367 00:20:17,476 --> 00:20:21,076 Speaker 2: they're an authority figure and no best, but sometimes we 368 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:24,996 Speaker 2: know best, and yet we give that away so easily. 369 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 2: In some participants, he did notice that people really evaluated 370 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 2: their behavior on how well they were following orders. But 371 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:38,156 Speaker 2: in many of the others there was that actual tension there, 372 00:20:38,276 --> 00:20:41,116 Speaker 2: which I call the first stage of defiance. That tension 373 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:46,556 Speaker 2: was clearly visible in that they wanted to defy, but 374 00:20:46,676 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 2: they didn't know how, and that tension actually is a 375 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:55,276 Speaker 2: signal of our agency, because if we had given away 376 00:20:55,676 --> 00:20:58,636 Speaker 2: all our power, then we wouldn't feel any tension. We 377 00:20:58,676 --> 00:21:01,036 Speaker 2: would be in that agentic state that he's talking about. 378 00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:02,756 Speaker 2: We would just go along with it. But if we 379 00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:06,596 Speaker 2: feel that tension, that is actually a strength, not a weakness, 380 00:21:06,636 --> 00:21:09,916 Speaker 2: because it alerts us to something is wrong here, and 381 00:21:09,956 --> 00:21:12,436 Speaker 2: I wonder what that is. And that is what we 382 00:21:12,516 --> 00:21:15,436 Speaker 2: need to focus on, not sweep it away just because 383 00:21:15,436 --> 00:21:18,876 Speaker 2: we have some anxiety or doubt or that we're confused. 384 00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:21,116 Speaker 2: It's really to focus on why is it that I 385 00:21:21,156 --> 00:21:25,596 Speaker 2: feel that tension? Acknowledge it to ourselves, and then tell 386 00:21:25,636 --> 00:21:28,636 Speaker 2: somebody else about it. Vocalize it to the person that 387 00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:31,716 Speaker 2: is asking you to do something that you don't think 388 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:33,956 Speaker 2: is the right thing to do. All you have to 389 00:21:33,996 --> 00:21:36,356 Speaker 2: do is say I'm uncomfortable with that. What do you 390 00:21:36,396 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 2: mean by that? Can you clarify You're still in a 391 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:43,516 Speaker 2: subservient position at this point, but you are making it 392 00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:47,116 Speaker 2: known externally this is not something you're comfortable with. If 393 00:21:47,116 --> 00:21:49,796 Speaker 2: you then complied later on, you can't have that cognitive 394 00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:51,916 Speaker 2: dissonance of saying I was fine with it because you 395 00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,236 Speaker 2: put it out there. And what's wonderful is that once 396 00:21:55,276 --> 00:21:58,556 Speaker 2: you get to that final active defiance, that tension that 397 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:01,156 Speaker 2: you have in the first stage, it just melts, it 398 00:22:01,236 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 2: dissipates away. 399 00:22:02,516 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 1: It also seems like this anxiety creeps up most in 400 00:22:05,396 --> 00:22:08,996 Speaker 1: situations in which the defiance really maybe isn't safe for 401 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:11,716 Speaker 1: is at least perceived as not being as safe. And 402 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:13,796 Speaker 1: this is something you've focused on a lot in your book. 403 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,916 Speaker 1: You've talked about this idea of conscious compliance. What's that 404 00:22:17,556 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 1: Conscious compliance happens in situations where there is a real 405 00:22:22,116 --> 00:22:25,436 Speaker 1: risk for us that we're not safe to defy. It 406 00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:29,876 Speaker 1: could be a risk to financial safety, psychological safety, or 407 00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 1: even our physical safety in a position. And conscious compliance 408 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 1: is different from the type of compliance that we normally 409 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:41,476 Speaker 1: have where we just kind of go along with things 410 00:22:41,516 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: because of an external force that we slide into automatically 411 00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:49,276 Speaker 1: without thinking. Conscious compliance is being really aware that in 412 00:22:49,316 --> 00:22:52,476 Speaker 1: this situation the costs are too big or the benefits 413 00:22:52,636 --> 00:22:55,236 Speaker 1: are too small, and I'm going to just comply with 414 00:22:55,316 --> 00:22:58,796 Speaker 1: this situation and go along with things because defiance is 415 00:22:58,836 --> 00:23:02,236 Speaker 1: too risky, so I need to defer it for another moment. 416 00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:06,036 Speaker 1: You not only recognize that you're experiencing this anxiety, you 417 00:23:06,116 --> 00:23:08,276 Speaker 1: kind of have a mtter awareness of your compliance and 418 00:23:08,316 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 1: you kind of work through it and you're like, no, 419 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:13,076 Speaker 1: just this one's just not worth bringing it up because 420 00:23:13,116 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 1: I'll get in trouble. I could get physically hurt. There's 421 00:23:15,996 --> 00:23:18,596 Speaker 1: some situations where defiance really is dangerous. 422 00:23:19,356 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 2: That's right. And the two questions that I have discovered 423 00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:25,636 Speaker 2: that people often ask when they're deciding whether to defy 424 00:23:25,796 --> 00:23:29,276 Speaker 2: or not is is it safe enough? And will it 425 00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:32,676 Speaker 2: be effective? Will it have positive impact? And in one 426 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:36,316 Speaker 2: study where I interviewed both nurses and nurse managers, the 427 00:23:36,396 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 2: nurses would talk about both of those reasons. So either 428 00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:41,396 Speaker 2: they didn't feel safe, they were going to lose their job, 429 00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:44,036 Speaker 2: they didn't know the consequences of speaking up. But then 430 00:23:44,076 --> 00:23:46,116 Speaker 2: there was another group of nurses that would say, it's 431 00:23:46,156 --> 00:23:49,316 Speaker 2: not because I feel afraid of anything. Is that I've 432 00:23:49,356 --> 00:23:52,316 Speaker 2: spoken up many times in the past and nothing's happened. 433 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,516 Speaker 2: So these two questions are really useful to think about 434 00:23:55,676 --> 00:23:58,036 Speaker 2: is it safe for me to defy? And will it 435 00:23:58,076 --> 00:24:01,556 Speaker 2: have positive impact? But it's also important not to then 436 00:24:01,636 --> 00:24:05,716 Speaker 2: sort of rationalize that we should never defy, because defiance 437 00:24:05,876 --> 00:24:08,876 Speaker 2: is inherently risky, and so the questions we should ask 438 00:24:08,996 --> 00:24:13,516 Speaker 2: is is it safe enough? And will it have enough impact? 439 00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:16,916 Speaker 2: And it really comes down to something personal, our own 440 00:24:17,036 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 2: sort defiance calculus in a way of what are the 441 00:24:20,196 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 2: costs and whatever benefits? And is this the right time 442 00:24:24,076 --> 00:24:26,476 Speaker 2: for me to defy? And is this the right way 443 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:29,356 Speaker 2: for me to defy? Because otherwise we just end up 444 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:32,716 Speaker 2: in conscious compliance forever and that, as we know, can 445 00:24:32,756 --> 00:24:33,996 Speaker 2: have costs too. 446 00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:37,956 Speaker 1: Every active defiance carries a cost. But the big question 447 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:41,156 Speaker 1: is when is the cost of staying silent even greater 448 00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:44,236 Speaker 1: after the break? So Nita will share some advice on 449 00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:47,436 Speaker 1: how to ask ourselves that question, and we'll explore some 450 00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:51,036 Speaker 1: remarkable examples of what happens when people choose to speak up. 451 00:24:51,476 --> 00:25:04,476 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back. As a kid, 452 00:25:04,556 --> 00:25:07,716 Speaker 1: I was obsessed with one of America's iconic heroines, the 453 00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:11,636 Speaker 1: civil rights activist Rosa Parks. I read her biography as 454 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 1: a middle schooler and even wrote my seventh grade paper 455 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 1: about her famous moment of defiance, when she refused to 456 00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:20,276 Speaker 1: give up her bus seat to a white passenger in 457 00:25:20,396 --> 00:25:24,356 Speaker 1: violation of all the segregation laws at the time. Back then, 458 00:25:24,516 --> 00:25:28,276 Speaker 1: this seemed like a tidy story, an empowering moment, neatly packaged, 459 00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:31,436 Speaker 1: inspiring for kids like me, but the reality, which I 460 00:25:31,476 --> 00:25:34,756 Speaker 1: didn't fully understand until much later, was far more complex. 461 00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:39,196 Speaker 1: Organizational psychologists soon Nita Saw believes that facing the full 462 00:25:39,236 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 1: truth about moments of defiance like this will teach us 463 00:25:42,116 --> 00:25:45,156 Speaker 1: something really important. We'll get to learn what it truly 464 00:25:45,236 --> 00:25:46,956 Speaker 1: takes to stand up for our values. 465 00:25:47,436 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 2: So what really intrigues me about Rosa Parks is that, 466 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 2: first of all, her defiance is being misunderstead. People think that, 467 00:25:55,516 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 2: you know, it was a spontaneous action that she made 468 00:25:58,956 --> 00:26:01,996 Speaker 2: on the bus that day, and that she did it 469 00:26:01,996 --> 00:26:04,756 Speaker 2: because she was tied all over. But what Rosa Parks 470 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 2: actually said is that she wasn't tied at that day, 471 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 2: at least no more tired then usual. She was quite young, 472 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 2: she wasn't that old, but it was time. This was 473 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:19,036 Speaker 2: the right time and the right place for her. And 474 00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:23,636 Speaker 2: when we think about sort of defiance and compliance, defiance 475 00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:27,956 Speaker 2: is often preceded by hundreds of moments of compliance. And 476 00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:30,156 Speaker 2: this is something that we have to remember because we 477 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:34,356 Speaker 2: often beat ourselves up for being so compliant, but we 478 00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:38,716 Speaker 2: actually learn from being compliant. We feel that tension that 479 00:26:38,836 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 2: I talk about, which is stage one of defiance, and 480 00:26:42,476 --> 00:26:45,836 Speaker 2: we often disregard it, but that tension stays, It doesn't 481 00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:48,596 Speaker 2: go away. If we just go along with things, we 482 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:51,476 Speaker 2: think it might go away, but it actually remains. And 483 00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:54,716 Speaker 2: that's what happened with Rosa Parks, is that those moments 484 00:26:54,716 --> 00:26:58,916 Speaker 2: of compliance where she had gone along with segregation laws 485 00:26:58,956 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 2: on the bus, didn't leave her feeling good. She was 486 00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:05,356 Speaker 2: very much connected with her values for equality. They were 487 00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:07,756 Speaker 2: very important to her. She was doing lots of work 488 00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:10,996 Speaker 2: in this area, and so on that bus she might 489 00:27:11,036 --> 00:27:13,796 Speaker 2: have asked herselves the questions that I mentioned, is it 490 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 2: safe and will it have positive impact? Well, if we 491 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:19,716 Speaker 2: think about is it safe, actually it wasn't safe for 492 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:23,956 Speaker 2: Rosa Parks to defy that day. It wasn't safe at all. 493 00:27:24,036 --> 00:27:26,996 Speaker 2: She received a lot of death threats, she lost her job, 494 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:31,956 Speaker 2: she struggled with unemployment for ten years, and the amount 495 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:34,796 Speaker 2: of stress that she experienced had a massive toll on 496 00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:37,916 Speaker 2: her health. And so we have to think about these 497 00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:41,156 Speaker 2: costs of defiance. They are real for a lot of people. 498 00:27:41,716 --> 00:27:45,316 Speaker 2: And yet when she was asked ten years later would 499 00:27:45,316 --> 00:27:49,076 Speaker 2: she do it again, she said yes without hesitation. So 500 00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:51,636 Speaker 2: sometimes the costs can be high, and this is a 501 00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 2: very personal question that we have to answer. Is it 502 00:27:54,956 --> 00:27:58,356 Speaker 2: safe enough for us? Will it have positive impact? Will 503 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:01,476 Speaker 2: it have enough positive impact for her? It certainly did, 504 00:28:01,956 --> 00:28:04,556 Speaker 2: and she knew that she had a community around her 505 00:28:04,676 --> 00:28:08,356 Speaker 2: that would rally around and maybe this could make a difference. 506 00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 2: And it really did make a difference, which was wonderful. 507 00:28:11,396 --> 00:28:14,396 Speaker 2: But some people will stand for their values or sit 508 00:28:14,476 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 2: down for their values, even if they know that is 509 00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:20,836 Speaker 2: some safe and even though they can't predict whether it 510 00:28:20,836 --> 00:28:22,436 Speaker 2: will have positive impact or not. 511 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:25,196 Speaker 1: So the Rosa Park story really just shows us that 512 00:28:25,316 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 1: defying authority can come with these real costs. You know, 513 00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 1: ultimately it can be a very tough decision to decide 514 00:28:31,396 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 1: is this a moment in which I should defy or 515 00:28:33,476 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 1: should I just kind of keep on complying? And so, 516 00:28:36,156 --> 00:28:38,396 Speaker 1: what are some practical strategies that we can use to 517 00:28:38,436 --> 00:28:40,196 Speaker 1: do this? I know in your book you reference some 518 00:28:40,316 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 1: questions from the political scientist James March that we can 519 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:45,036 Speaker 1: use as a guide. Walk me through some of these 520 00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:47,596 Speaker 1: questions and how we might use them in a situation 521 00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:49,316 Speaker 1: in which we're really not sure what to do. 522 00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:53,156 Speaker 2: James March came up with three questions that we normally 523 00:28:53,196 --> 00:28:57,316 Speaker 2: ask ourselves implicitly when we make a decision. And I 524 00:28:57,356 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 2: adapted some of these questions and made it into what 525 00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:03,196 Speaker 2: I call a defiance compass. And the questions that are 526 00:29:03,196 --> 00:29:07,156 Speaker 2: actually quite simple, but it require some thinking. So the 527 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:10,476 Speaker 2: first one is who am I? And that goes back 528 00:29:10,516 --> 00:29:13,316 Speaker 2: to our values? What do you stand for? What's really 529 00:29:13,356 --> 00:29:16,596 Speaker 2: important to you? And it is so important to figure 530 00:29:16,636 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 2: out what your values are, and it's really helpful to 531 00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:22,876 Speaker 2: do so as well, because the research shows that if 532 00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:26,396 Speaker 2: you know your values, your intended behaviors are much more 533 00:29:26,516 --> 00:29:30,076 Speaker 2: likely to follow. And clarifying our values has been shown 534 00:29:30,156 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 2: to lead to a lower biological stress response to the 535 00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:37,756 Speaker 2: lower corticil level, so very much helpful for our well being. 536 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:40,316 Speaker 2: So who am I is the first question in the 537 00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:43,156 Speaker 2: defiance compass. Then the second question is what kind of 538 00:29:43,196 --> 00:29:46,676 Speaker 2: situation is this? So here we're looking externally and coming 539 00:29:46,716 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 2: back to those two questions that we ask about the environment, 540 00:29:49,716 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 2: is it safe? And will it be effective for me 541 00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:56,196 Speaker 2: to defy? And then the last question is what does 542 00:29:56,236 --> 00:29:59,956 Speaker 2: a person like me do in a situation like this? 543 00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:04,356 Speaker 2: And this is a really powerful question because again we're 544 00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 2: tapping back into our responsibilities. We're connecting with our values again, 545 00:30:09,636 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 2: and yet we still also need the ability to defy, 546 00:30:12,996 --> 00:30:15,836 Speaker 2: the skill set to defy. So those two things are 547 00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 2: important in predicting whether we will act in alignment with 548 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:22,956 Speaker 2: our values or not. So when we start thinking, what 549 00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:26,836 Speaker 2: does a person like me with these values of integrity, 550 00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 2: of fairness, of compassion, of equality, whatever our values are, 551 00:30:30,676 --> 00:30:33,996 Speaker 2: what does a person like me do in this situation? 552 00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:38,276 Speaker 2: Because the way that we act then goes back and 553 00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:41,316 Speaker 2: has an effect on who we are. If we can't 554 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:44,236 Speaker 2: act in alignment with our values, then it really does 555 00:30:44,316 --> 00:30:47,236 Speaker 2: change who we are. So if we're constantly saying to 556 00:30:47,316 --> 00:30:50,036 Speaker 2: people that was not me, we might want to think 557 00:30:50,076 --> 00:30:52,956 Speaker 2: about whether our actions are in alignment with who we 558 00:30:53,076 --> 00:30:55,996 Speaker 2: think we are. Because I've learned for many of us 559 00:30:56,036 --> 00:30:58,156 Speaker 2: that distance between who we think we are and what 560 00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 2: we actually do is enormous, and we want to decrease 561 00:31:01,636 --> 00:31:02,876 Speaker 2: that distance. 562 00:31:03,916 --> 00:31:05,556 Speaker 1: So so many of the cases we've been talking about 563 00:31:05,596 --> 00:31:08,396 Speaker 1: are these moments of like when you don't say something 564 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,716 Speaker 1: but you really want to and it seems to matter 565 00:31:10,756 --> 00:31:13,636 Speaker 1: a lot, right, Like somebody says something sexist or racist, 566 00:31:13,756 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 1: or somebody's making an active mistake, but a lot of 567 00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:19,316 Speaker 1: the times when I find it hard to say no 568 00:31:19,636 --> 00:31:22,036 Speaker 1: to protect my values, or when the values are about 569 00:31:22,076 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 1: like me right, like my time and my boundaries, and 570 00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 1: it involves saying no, I don't want to take on 571 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:30,516 Speaker 1: that commitment because I want to protect my time, or no, 572 00:31:30,596 --> 00:31:31,916 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that thing that you want 573 00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 1: me to do because you know it's not in my interest. 574 00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 1: But then that means I'm going to offend you or 575 00:31:36,236 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: something like that. So any advice for the like really 576 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:42,316 Speaker 1: personal ones when the value isn't about some you know, 577 00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:45,756 Speaker 1: deeper value of honesty or kind of being a just person, 578 00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:48,716 Speaker 1: but it's really just about like protecting the kinds of 579 00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:50,316 Speaker 1: stuff that you need to feel happier. 580 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:54,556 Speaker 2: Well, that's actually protecting your well being. It's really important 581 00:31:54,596 --> 00:31:57,316 Speaker 2: for you to function as a human. And so I 582 00:31:57,356 --> 00:32:01,236 Speaker 2: wouldn't disregard that. Defiance doesn't need to be loud or aggressive. 583 00:32:01,356 --> 00:32:04,876 Speaker 2: It can be something quite small, but that really honors 584 00:32:04,996 --> 00:32:07,956 Speaker 2: your values. And in the same way with requests for 585 00:32:08,076 --> 00:32:12,116 Speaker 2: our time or our energy, all of this kind of 586 00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:16,156 Speaker 2: aspect of well, that's actually going to affect my well being. 587 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 2: You know that's not right for me, it's not right 588 00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:20,996 Speaker 2: for my family. It's not right for my work. Like 589 00:32:21,036 --> 00:32:23,196 Speaker 2: there's many things where as soon as you say yes 590 00:32:23,676 --> 00:32:25,916 Speaker 2: that you're saying no to a lot of other things 591 00:32:25,996 --> 00:32:29,156 Speaker 2: that could be of greater importance. And again it's remembering 592 00:32:29,236 --> 00:32:33,436 Speaker 2: that that it's not just about thinking about what are 593 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:36,356 Speaker 2: the costs of saying no, thinking about what are the 594 00:32:36,396 --> 00:32:40,076 Speaker 2: costs of saying yes in this situation. I also like 595 00:32:40,156 --> 00:32:44,716 Speaker 2: to think about the difference between compliance and consent. And 596 00:32:44,756 --> 00:32:46,956 Speaker 2: this came to me when I was a junior doctor, 597 00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:49,916 Speaker 2: when I learned about informed consent in medicine, and I 598 00:32:49,956 --> 00:32:54,316 Speaker 2: think it's a really useful framework to also apply to 599 00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:57,996 Speaker 2: other situations in our lives when we make decisions. Maybe 600 00:32:58,036 --> 00:33:00,956 Speaker 2: just explain what informed consent is. So informed consent in 601 00:33:00,996 --> 00:33:05,196 Speaker 2: medicine requires five elements. You need. First of all, capacity, 602 00:33:05,356 --> 00:33:07,836 Speaker 2: so the brain capacity. You should not be under the 603 00:33:07,876 --> 00:33:10,836 Speaker 2: influence of drugs or alcohl be too sick. You need 604 00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:14,396 Speaker 2: the ability to be able to make a decision. Second 605 00:33:14,396 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 2: of all, you need knowledge, so you need information on 606 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:20,836 Speaker 2: that decision. But it's not enough just to be given 607 00:33:20,876 --> 00:33:23,636 Speaker 2: the information. You actually need the third element, which is 608 00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:28,036 Speaker 2: understanding a thorough grasp of the risks, the benefits, the 609 00:33:28,076 --> 00:33:33,476 Speaker 2: alternatives all of those things, so you have capacity, knowledge understanding. 610 00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:36,476 Speaker 2: The fourth element is the freedom to say no, because 611 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:38,916 Speaker 2: if you don't have the freedom to say no, then 612 00:33:39,036 --> 00:33:43,476 Speaker 2: that's merely compliance, it's not consent. And then the fifth element, 613 00:33:43,516 --> 00:33:46,196 Speaker 2: if all the other four elements are present, is your 614 00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:51,236 Speaker 2: authorization you're deeply considered true yes if you want to 615 00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:54,756 Speaker 2: say yes, or your true no, which is actually defiance. 616 00:33:55,116 --> 00:33:57,796 Speaker 2: So consent and defiance are actually two sides of the 617 00:33:57,836 --> 00:34:00,116 Speaker 2: same coin. You need to have those five elements that 618 00:34:00,116 --> 00:34:06,436 Speaker 2: are present. If you with the capacity, knowledge, understanding, and 619 00:34:06,516 --> 00:34:11,876 Speaker 2: freedom to say no, still feel this pressure to say yes, 620 00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:14,756 Speaker 2: you need to think about is this really my true yes? 621 00:34:15,076 --> 00:34:17,876 Speaker 2: Or am I going along with something that I don't 622 00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:19,996 Speaker 2: want to do? Is it a yes that's not really 623 00:34:20,396 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 2: a yes? Because if so, that's just compliance. It's really 624 00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:27,156 Speaker 2: good to be able to distinguish between the two so 625 00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:31,236 Speaker 2: we don't slide into that automatic compliance just because we 626 00:34:31,316 --> 00:34:33,876 Speaker 2: feel pressure or that's been our default response. 627 00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:37,076 Speaker 1: So, based on everything you've learned about the psychology of 628 00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:39,036 Speaker 1: defiance and when we need to do it, do you 629 00:34:39,076 --> 00:34:42,756 Speaker 1: have any favorite examples of defiance, Like who are your 630 00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 1: defiance heroes? 631 00:34:44,556 --> 00:34:48,316 Speaker 2: I would have to say my mom, you know, because 632 00:34:48,796 --> 00:34:52,196 Speaker 2: she just embodies compliance, and a lot of people think 633 00:34:52,236 --> 00:34:55,316 Speaker 2: about her as being really weak, but I just think 634 00:34:55,356 --> 00:34:58,676 Speaker 2: she's so strong. I was about seven or eight years old. 635 00:34:58,996 --> 00:35:01,796 Speaker 2: I was walking home with my mom from the grocery store, 636 00:35:02,116 --> 00:35:05,756 Speaker 2: and she was pulling along her ricketee shopping carts, which 637 00:35:05,956 --> 00:35:09,556 Speaker 2: just looks like you know, wheel luggage, two wheels. It 638 00:35:09,596 --> 00:35:12,676 Speaker 2: was quite a long walk back home and we decided 639 00:35:12,756 --> 00:35:16,196 Speaker 2: to go through a narrow alleyway that we actually call 640 00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:20,116 Speaker 2: a snicket in West Yorkshire in England. And I had 641 00:35:20,116 --> 00:35:22,196 Speaker 2: always been told not to go through the snicket when 642 00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:24,196 Speaker 2: I was by myself, but I was with my mom 643 00:35:24,436 --> 00:35:26,676 Speaker 2: and we were tired, and so I was like, okay, fine, 644 00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:29,756 Speaker 2: we'll go through the snicket. When we started walking through, 645 00:35:30,156 --> 00:35:32,556 Speaker 2: was when we saw them. It was a group of 646 00:35:32,596 --> 00:35:36,876 Speaker 2: teenage boys, and they blocked our path and they shouted 647 00:35:36,876 --> 00:35:40,836 Speaker 2: out some racist things to us go back home, and 648 00:35:40,876 --> 00:35:44,996 Speaker 2: the others were laughing. Now my reaction to that was instant. 649 00:35:45,156 --> 00:35:48,716 Speaker 2: I grabbed my mom's arm and I looked away. I 650 00:35:48,796 --> 00:35:50,756 Speaker 2: did not want to look at them directly in the eyes, 651 00:35:50,796 --> 00:35:53,316 Speaker 2: and I just wanted to maneuver as fast as possible 652 00:35:53,676 --> 00:35:57,796 Speaker 2: through the boys and my mom did something different that day. 653 00:35:57,956 --> 00:35:59,676 Speaker 2: I thought she would just go along with me, but 654 00:35:59,756 --> 00:36:04,276 Speaker 2: she didn't. She stopped and she looked at them directly 655 00:36:04,316 --> 00:36:07,156 Speaker 2: in the eyes, and she said what do you mean? 656 00:36:07,796 --> 00:36:10,276 Speaker 2: And my heart started race at this point, and I 657 00:36:10,316 --> 00:36:13,556 Speaker 2: grabbed her arm even tighter and I whispered to her comba, 658 00:36:14,156 --> 00:36:16,316 Speaker 2: and she looked at me and she said no, which 659 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:19,196 Speaker 2: really surprised me. Then she put the shopping cart up 660 00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:21,436 Speaker 2: vertical and she put one hand on a bit. My 661 00:36:21,556 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 2: mom's quite petite, she's four foot ten at most, and 662 00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:27,356 Speaker 2: she was wearing her blue green sorry. She had her 663 00:36:27,876 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 2: hair in a neap plat at the back. And she 664 00:36:30,716 --> 00:36:33,036 Speaker 2: looked at the boys again and then she said what 665 00:36:33,156 --> 00:36:37,036 Speaker 2: do you mean? Again? And there was complete silence. The 666 00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:40,636 Speaker 2: boys didn't say anything at all. And then my mom said, hmm, 667 00:36:41,316 --> 00:36:44,956 Speaker 2: you think you're such tough boys, beak strong boys, right, 668 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:49,116 Speaker 2: clever boys? And again there was silence, and then one 669 00:36:49,116 --> 00:36:53,196 Speaker 2: of the boys uttered, let's go, and they just dispersed. 670 00:36:53,796 --> 00:36:56,236 Speaker 2: My mom grabbed the shopping cart and she walked as 671 00:36:56,276 --> 00:36:59,116 Speaker 2: fast as possible through that alleyway and I just stood 672 00:36:59,156 --> 00:37:02,836 Speaker 2: there thinking what just happened. I would never have expected 673 00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:05,676 Speaker 2: this from my mom. She was so compliant, she did 674 00:37:05,716 --> 00:37:08,556 Speaker 2: all the cooking, the cleaning, the grocery shopping. I always 675 00:37:08,556 --> 00:37:12,836 Speaker 2: found her very require subserving, meeting everybody else's needs, and 676 00:37:13,076 --> 00:37:15,876 Speaker 2: that day she showed me something different. She showed me 677 00:37:16,036 --> 00:37:19,916 Speaker 2: that defiance is a practice, not a personality. She must 678 00:37:19,916 --> 00:37:22,836 Speaker 2: have encountered those boys or people that looked like those 679 00:37:22,916 --> 00:37:27,036 Speaker 2: boys many times before that she would come home from 680 00:37:27,076 --> 00:37:29,236 Speaker 2: the store and she would be muttering away, and I 681 00:37:29,316 --> 00:37:32,276 Speaker 2: thought it was because of the shopping cart that was like, 682 00:37:32,436 --> 00:37:35,116 Speaker 2: not great. But I think it was because she'd met 683 00:37:35,156 --> 00:37:37,996 Speaker 2: people like those boys before, and that day she decided 684 00:37:38,036 --> 00:37:41,276 Speaker 2: to do something different, perhaps because I was there. What 685 00:37:41,396 --> 00:37:46,676 Speaker 2: I also found really fascinating about Rosa Parks is that she, 686 00:37:46,996 --> 00:37:51,876 Speaker 2: as a child, had once seen her mother defy on 687 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:55,036 Speaker 2: the bus. Her mother didn't move for a white passenger 688 00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:57,596 Speaker 2: and the bus driver had threatened to throw her off, 689 00:37:57,796 --> 00:37:59,756 Speaker 2: and her mother very quietly said, I don't think you 690 00:37:59,796 --> 00:38:02,036 Speaker 2: will do that, and that was the end of it. 691 00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 2: And that also could have an effect. It could have 692 00:38:05,076 --> 00:38:08,636 Speaker 2: stayed with Rosa, just like when I experienced my own 693 00:38:08,676 --> 00:38:12,196 Speaker 2: mother defying when I was a child, really stayed with me. 694 00:38:12,556 --> 00:38:15,876 Speaker 2: Defiance can have a ripple effect because her. Doing that 695 00:38:15,956 --> 00:38:19,836 Speaker 2: affected me, and I've carried it forward, and now that 696 00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:23,116 Speaker 2: I'm telling the story, maybe it will affect other people too. 697 00:38:23,196 --> 00:38:25,996 Speaker 2: Because what I'm hoping with the book that I've written 698 00:38:25,996 --> 00:38:30,316 Speaker 2: on defy and with the work of building that skill 699 00:38:30,396 --> 00:38:33,716 Speaker 2: set of being able to defy, if we can teach it, 700 00:38:33,756 --> 00:38:36,196 Speaker 2: if we compare them for it, if we can model it, 701 00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:38,716 Speaker 2: that one day one of the teenage boys in the 702 00:38:38,756 --> 00:38:42,716 Speaker 2: alleyway will turn around and tell his friends to stop 703 00:38:42,756 --> 00:38:45,836 Speaker 2: doing this and to let us pass so my immigrant 704 00:38:45,836 --> 00:38:48,556 Speaker 2: mother wouldn't have to carry it alone. That is what 705 00:38:48,596 --> 00:38:51,556 Speaker 2: I hope and I think is achievable if we can 706 00:38:51,596 --> 00:38:52,556 Speaker 2: all learn to defy. 707 00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:55,396 Speaker 1: So next time a relative makes an off color joke 708 00:38:55,436 --> 00:38:57,796 Speaker 1: that they expect you to laugh at, or your boss 709 00:38:57,916 --> 00:38:59,916 Speaker 1: asks you to take on a task that conflicts with 710 00:38:59,956 --> 00:39:02,756 Speaker 1: your boundaries, or some random meal professor tells you to 711 00:39:02,796 --> 00:39:05,836 Speaker 1: deliver shocks to someone trying to learn word pairs, take 712 00:39:05,836 --> 00:39:09,916 Speaker 1: a moment to remember Sunita's advice. First off, acknowledge your 713 00:39:09,916 --> 00:39:13,316 Speaker 1: anxiety that yucky feeling is a good thing. It's a 714 00:39:13,356 --> 00:39:17,636 Speaker 1: signal that something feels off. Then consider your values how 715 00:39:17,716 --> 00:39:21,756 Speaker 1: might they guide your actions in this situation. Next, vocalize 716 00:39:21,756 --> 00:39:24,916 Speaker 1: your discomfort, and then if you feel safe enough and 717 00:39:24,996 --> 00:39:27,876 Speaker 1: believe it could have an impact, go ahead and give 718 00:39:27,956 --> 00:39:32,196 Speaker 1: your true no defy. The research shows you'll be happier 719 00:39:32,196 --> 00:39:37,116 Speaker 1: for it. In the next episode, we'll continue our back 720 00:39:37,156 --> 00:39:39,596 Speaker 1: to school series with another one of my favorite books 721 00:39:39,636 --> 00:39:42,356 Speaker 1: from twenty twenty five. We'll hear from an expert on 722 00:39:42,396 --> 00:39:44,796 Speaker 1: how we can use our environments to shape our health 723 00:39:44,876 --> 00:39:47,596 Speaker 1: and our happiness, and we'll hear his tips for how 724 00:39:47,596 --> 00:39:50,156 Speaker 1: we can bring the healthiest places on the planet into 725 00:39:50,196 --> 00:39:53,516 Speaker 1: our own kitchens. All that next time on that Happiness 726 00:39:53,556 --> 00:39:56,156 Speaker 1: Lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos