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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: So every time something is done to kind of keep

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Speaker 2: it in check, the virus in this case of behavioral

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Speaker 2: virus kind of mutates and it becomes different, and in

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Speaker 2: this case it became more violent.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and a deep dive into the unpublished

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Speaker 1: details behind their stories. Plane hijackings aren't very common anymore,

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Speaker 1: but in the late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: armed criminals were forcing commercial airliners to divert their flights,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes demanding ransom. Author Brendan Kerner tells the story of

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Speaker 1: an American couple turned hijackers whose journey ends with some

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Speaker 1: surprising twists. Kerner's book is called The Skies Belong to Us.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was talking to one of my kids,

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Speaker 1: their teenagers in high school, and I was talking to

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Speaker 1: one of them, and we were talking about picking somebody

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Speaker 1: up from the airport, and I said, I remember when

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Speaker 1: you could just walk right up to the gate and

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Speaker 1: Dad is there, he's getting off the plane, and you

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Speaker 1: hug them and then you all walk off. And I

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Speaker 1: think she thought I was lying. I don't think she

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Speaker 1: thought that day would come in. I know there are

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Speaker 1: members of our audience who were not, you know, alive.

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Speaker 1: They've always lived with this, the TSA, how strict they are,

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Speaker 1: not being able to go up to gates. And I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of that came from September eleventh. But

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Speaker 1: take me back further wherever you think is a good

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Speaker 1: place to start this story, to set the scene.

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Speaker 2: The story really starts kind of at the dawn of

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Speaker 2: mass air travel in the United States, talking late nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 2: early nineteen sixties, the first time that the common man

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Speaker 2: and common woman could afford a plane ticket, and it

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Speaker 2: was starting supplant driving or taking a train to your destination.

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Speaker 2: The airlines wanted the flying experience to be just like

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Speaker 2: going to a bus terminal or going to a train station.

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Speaker 2: They didn't want people to feel like it was a

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Speaker 2: different kind of experience. So, and this is very hard

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Speaker 2: for people to understand now, there was basically no security

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Speaker 2: at all. So you'd be dropped off at the sidewalk

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Speaker 2: outside the terminal. You would walk through with your bag.

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Speaker 2: No one would check it, there were no metal detectors.

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Speaker 2: You would walk to the gate, you'd walk onto the tarmac,

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Speaker 2: you'd walk up to the top of the boarding stairs,

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Speaker 2: and that's the place oftentimes where they would ask to

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Speaker 2: see your ticket. You'd have to show ID. And there

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Speaker 2: were many flights in fact, where you could get on

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Speaker 2: the plane, the plane would take off, and then the

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Speaker 2: flight attendant would come down and you would pay for

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Speaker 2: your ticket while you were already in the air. That

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Speaker 2: was pretty much common practice for shuttle flights. So it

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Speaker 2: was very very easy for people to bring weapons onto planes,

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Speaker 2: and that really in nineteen sixty one when you had

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Speaker 2: the first hijacking in American airspace, it was someone who

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Speaker 2: just brought steak knife onto the plane and went to

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Speaker 2: the cockpit and held it to the pilot's throat and said,

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Speaker 2: I want to go to Cuba. And this was shortly

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Speaker 2: after the Cuban Revolution and we'd cut off diplomatic relations

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Speaker 2: with Cuba, and so there was real questions like should

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Speaker 2: we do this, and the pilot decided, well, the safest

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Speaker 2: thing is for me to fly this person to Cuba.

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Speaker 2: And then that kind of became the norm for the

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Speaker 2: next several years, because there's no real extradition from Cuba.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people idealized Cuba at that time is

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Speaker 2: this kind of like glorious workers paradise, and so you

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Speaker 2: had this huge rash of people that would take weapons

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Speaker 2: onto planes and that they would demand to be flown

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Speaker 2: to Havana, and the airlines, you know, kind of did

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Speaker 2: the math in their heads. I mean, there was some

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Speaker 2: early agitation and discussion of like, well, should we search

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Speaker 2: people before they get on planes? And what they decided

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Speaker 2: was that economically it made the most sense just to

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Speaker 2: comply with the hijackers demands and do whatever they said,

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Speaker 2: which at that time was always going to Cuba. The

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Speaker 2: calculus they had in their minds was like, Okay, so

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Speaker 2: we fly the person to Cuba, they get off, we

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Speaker 2: never see them again, the people on the plane, other

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Speaker 2: passengers are inconvenience, but they get to spend a night

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Speaker 2: at a hotel in Havana. People have great stories about

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Speaker 2: bringing back cigars in Rome, and like, you know, and

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Speaker 2: we give them, we comp them a ticket, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it costs us you know, a few hundred grand a year,

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Speaker 2: Whereas they thought, if we institute you know, security and airports,

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Speaker 2: we're going to scare away tons of customers and it's

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Speaker 2: going to cost us millions and millions of dollars. So

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Speaker 2: it became just an economic decision to institute this policy

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Speaker 2: of total compliance with high j actor's demands pretty early

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Speaker 2: on in this time period.

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Speaker 1: And I think you said in your book that you know,

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Speaker 1: a hijacking to Cuba, it was like twenty five thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars is all it cost an airline to do that?

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Basically, so the big expenses where you had to

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Speaker 2: comp the passengers on a ticket and you also had

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Speaker 2: to pay Castro. This actually became a revenue source for

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Speaker 2: the Castro regime after they had been deprived of American trade.

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Speaker 2: He would charge pretty exorbitant sums to refuel the plane

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Speaker 2: and get it back in the air, but again, twenty

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Speaker 2: five thousand dollars much much cheaper than spending millions, And

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Speaker 2: of course they were afraid of the business they would lose.

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Speaker 2: They didn't want people to feel like they were criminals

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Speaker 2: for the act of trying to fly.

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Speaker 1: What were the reactions of the airline passengers. Was there

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Speaker 1: psychological trauma or was it just assumed, well, we haven't

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Speaker 1: had a fatality in one of these things yet, and

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Speaker 1: that's it.

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Speaker 2: Well, certainly at first there wasn't real violence associated with

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Speaker 2: these hijackings. I think one thing I talk about in

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Speaker 2: the book a lot is that how this what I

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Speaker 2: call the Golden Age of hijacking somewhat tongue in cheek,

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Speaker 2: kind of followed the temporal, you know, structure of a

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Speaker 2: physiological epidemic in that it kind of starts small and

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Speaker 2: then it kind of mutates over time. So every time

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Speaker 2: something is done to kind of keep it in check,

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Speaker 2: the virus in this case of behavioral virus kind of

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Speaker 2: mutates and it becomes different. And in this case it

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Speaker 2: became more violent as it passed on. So in these

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Speaker 2: early years, people didn't really want to commit violence, and

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Speaker 2: people weren't committing violence in these hijackings, so people didn't

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Speaker 2: really feel threatened in you know, the early to mid

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixties. They weren't really super frightened at that point

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Speaker 2: because they said, Okay, they're just trying to negotiate. This

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Speaker 2: is just some mentally ill person or some person that

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Speaker 2: has personal problem, whatever it is. They just want to

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Speaker 2: go to Havana. I'll go down there, I'll spend a

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Speaker 2: night in a hotel. I'll stuff some cigars in my

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Speaker 2: suit case and smuggle them back, and I have a

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Speaker 2: great story to tell. But over time, these hijackings did

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Speaker 2: get terribly out of hand and terribly violent.

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Speaker 1: When was the first or what were the circumstances of

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Speaker 1: the first fatality that happened on one of these flights.

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Speaker 2: Well, actually one of the first ones was the murder

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Speaker 2: of a pilot. A passenger went and actually ordered the

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Speaker 2: pilots to go out it was out of Boston, I believe,

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Speaker 2: and went out over the Atlantic Ocean, and he actually

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Speaker 2: murdered one of the pilots, shot one of the pilots

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Speaker 2: in the head, shot another one who then actually managed

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Speaker 2: to land the fight back and land the plane. So

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Speaker 2: that was really the beginning. But when things really got

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Speaker 2: out of hand was really in the early nineteen seventies.

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Speaker 2: A lot of it associated with the FBI often trying

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Speaker 2: to storm these planes with guns drawn and trying to

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Speaker 2: rescue passengers and apprehend these hijackers. And that's when you

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Speaker 2: started to have some shootouts and some fatalities among passengers.

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Speaker 1: So you said that a lot of these planes get

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Speaker 1: diverted through threats to Cuba, But that's not where we

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Speaker 1: end up heading with your story. Do you want to

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Speaker 1: sort of set the scene for who your main characters

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Speaker 1: are and by the way, you know, I read several

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Speaker 1: reviews that were all very complimentary of how empathetic you are,

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Speaker 1: not easy, but empathetic to the two people involved in

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Speaker 1: this hijacking and how unusual that is, and sort of

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Speaker 1: your how well you've done digging into the psychology behind

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Speaker 1: why people do this and not dismissing them as mentally

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Speaker 1: ill or you know, just a penchant for violence or

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Speaker 1: politically you know, drawn to this sort of thing. So

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Speaker 1: so setting the stage there, I think you know that

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of insight with these two folks,

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Speaker 1: and that's one of the great things about your book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. So my book is really set in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. This is at the very end and

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Speaker 2: really the craziest, wildest, most dangerous part of this criminal epidemic.

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Speaker 2: A couple of things that happened in a couple of

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Speaker 2: years leading up to this time. You know, I talked

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Speaker 2: about how for quite a while all these flights were

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Speaker 2: heading to Cuba. You know. Then you had kind of

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Speaker 2: a real landmark hijack in nineteen sixty nine where an

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Speaker 2: Italian American marine he's actually born in Italy but had

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Speaker 2: immigrated here. He had a dispute with the Marines, and

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Speaker 2: he decided to hijack a plane back to Italy. And

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Speaker 2: that was really the first time that a hijacker from

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Speaker 2: the US had taken a plane somewhere other than Cuba.

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Speaker 2: And so that created a new phase of this epidemic

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Speaker 2: where you had hijackers wanting to go other places. A

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Speaker 2: year after that, you had a truck driver from Arizona

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Speaker 2: who had a tax dispute, hijacked a plane and demanded

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Speaker 2: one hundred million dollars in ransom from the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 2: which he was upset had not taken his tax grievance up.

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Speaker 2: So in that instance, actually the Airline TWA made a

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Speaker 2: decision to pay him one million dollars. They didn't have

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Speaker 2: a one hundred million dollars lying around. They thought that might

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Speaker 2: placate him. And so that really set a precedent for well,

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Speaker 2: not only can you travel somewhere other than Cuba, you

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Speaker 2: can also get ransom, you can get money and rich

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Speaker 2: from doing this, and that kind of set off this

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Speaker 2: really wild part of this epidemic. So, you know, flashed

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Speaker 2: forward to nineteen seventy two, there's a young Vietnam veteran

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Speaker 2: named Willie Roger Holder and he returns from the war.

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Speaker 2: He had a really bad experience where he'd done several

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Speaker 2: tours and had kind of had a mental breakdown and

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Speaker 2: had gotten in some legal trouble with the army. Came

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Speaker 2: back to the States and went awall and was kind

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Speaker 2: of bumming around San Diego and he meets one day,

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Speaker 2: he goes to the house of a woman that he's

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Speaker 2: trying to romance, and this woman's roommate answers the door,

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Speaker 2: and this is Katherine Marie Kirkou, a twenty year old

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Speaker 2: young woman from Kusbe, Oregon who had come down to

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Speaker 2: San Diego. She kind of a hippie had come down

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Speaker 2: there to get some son and some sand, and she

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Speaker 2: was working in a massage parlor actually with her friend,

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Speaker 2: and so they meet this way kind of accidentally, and

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Speaker 2: they fall madly in love pretty instantly, a real infatuation

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Speaker 2: between the two of them. Roger Holder, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of had a bit of his mental breakdowns continuing at

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Speaker 2: this time. You know, he is actually about to get

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Speaker 2: in trouble, some legal trouble for bouncing some checks, and

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Speaker 2: he's got some really bad personal circumstances, and he gets

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Speaker 2: it in his mind that he's going to do something

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Speaker 2: spectacular basically to reinvent himself and carve out this new

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Speaker 2: life with Kathy Kirko, the new love of his life.

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Speaker 2: And at that time, there's a huge story going on

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Speaker 2: up in San Jose. It's the trial of Angela Davis.

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Speaker 2: This is a communist philosophy professor at UCLA who stood

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Speaker 2: accused of having supplied firearms to a group of black

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Speaker 2: militants who had shot up a courthouse in an effort

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Speaker 2: to liberate one of their comrades. And now she was

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Speaker 2: on trial and faced life in prison. In this trial,

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Speaker 2: there's a real cause celebra the rolling Stones famously wrote

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Speaker 2: a song about her, and Roger Holder got in his

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Speaker 2: mind that he was going to do something, that he

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Speaker 2: was going to hijack a plane and he was going

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Speaker 2: to use that as a negotiating tactic to obtain Angeli

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Speaker 2: Davis's freedom as well as three million dollars. And his

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Speaker 2: plan was Angela Davis would get on the plane with

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Speaker 2: him and Kathy. They would fly to North Vietnam where

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Speaker 2: he would drop off Angeli Davis and Hanoi, and then

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Speaker 2: him and Kathy would fly to Australia where they would

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Speaker 2: homestead in the Australian outback and live happily ever after.

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Speaker 2: So it's not really a great plan, it's definitely ambitious,

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Speaker 2: but that was what was in the air at that

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Speaker 2: time that there was this kind of like mass delusional

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Speaker 2: feeling where people did have all these grandiose plans to

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Speaker 2: do with these hijackings, and a lot of it had

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Speaker 2: to do with a lot of veterans coming home, a

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Speaker 2: lot of people that were frustrated with the fact that,

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Speaker 2: like you know, there'd been all these protests against the

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Speaker 2: war and for civil rights and they'd ended assassinations and

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Speaker 2: a continuation of the war. A lot of feeling that

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Speaker 2: normal political channels and means had done nothing for these

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Speaker 2: people who had grieve vinces with the government, and so

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Speaker 2: there was increasingly turning to spectacular violence. That was Roger's plan,

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Speaker 2: but as you might imagine, didn't quite play out the

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Speaker 2: way he envisioned.

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Speaker 1: What is the American government's response to all of this

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Speaker 1: is it's becoming more and more violent. Are they saying finally, okay,

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Speaker 1: we need more security on these planes. Are we pass

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Speaker 1: the point where we're trying to preserve the money coming

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Speaker 1: in from passengers versus their safety.

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Speaker 2: So this is one of the most interesting things I

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Speaker 2: found in the course of researching this book is that

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Speaker 2: there was quite a bit of agitation pressing on the

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Speaker 2: governmental side for the institution of meaningful security. The people

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Speaker 2: resisted it were the airlines. The airlines were incredibly frightened

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Speaker 2: of what it would do to their bottom lines. Essentially,

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Speaker 2: do you have to institute all the security at every

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Speaker 2: airport by X ray machines search everyone. I talk a

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Speaker 2: lot about these congressional hearings that would take place every

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Speaker 2: so often in response to these ways of hijackings, And

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Speaker 2: you always had, you know, a pretty high paid lobbyist

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Speaker 2: from PanAm or TWA talking about, well, we can't do

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Speaker 2: this because imagine the line that would like stend out

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Speaker 2: the door. If you had a search every passenger, it

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Speaker 2: would destroy our industry. And they had a lot of clout.

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Speaker 2: It was a new, glamorous, wealthy industry. I've often told

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Speaker 2: people it's kind of like the tech of its day.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this was an era where the release of

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Speaker 2: the new Boeing seven forty seven was like the biggest event,

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Speaker 2: like the biggest tech event in the world. They had

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Speaker 2: a lot of clout, and they were able to stave

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Speaker 2: off government mandates about security. So you did occasionally have

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Speaker 2: things where you know, the government did come up. The

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Speaker 2: FAA came up with this identification system. They basically came

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Speaker 2: up with a behavioral profile for hijackers, and they would

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Speaker 2: have a ticket agent. They would say look for these

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Speaker 2: like twenty five different indications that someone may be a hijacker.

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Speaker 1: So profiling essentially exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so so when one of them is like if

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Speaker 2: they're wearing military surplus clothing, if they don't seem to

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Speaker 2: care about what's in their luggage. In those cases, you

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Speaker 2: can pull people over and search them. But it was

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Speaker 2: supposed to apply to like less than one percent of passengers.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, you know, being an airline

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Speaker 2: ticket agent's a hard job. You're dealing with a lot

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Speaker 2: of harry, often angry customers. You're not really totally well

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Speaker 2: equipped to also be applying a behavioral profile to everyone

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Speaker 2: that comes past. So it wasn't very effective. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: really it was the airlines who were preventing a lot

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Speaker 2: of this institution of security, and that's really why the

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Speaker 2: government kind of made the decision, specifically the FBI, that like, well,

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Speaker 2: if the airlines aren't going to do something about this,

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Speaker 2: we're going to become more aggressive about apprehending hijackers. And

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Speaker 2: that's really when you got the FBI often plotting to

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Speaker 2: get agents, undercover agents onto planes to stop hijackers. And

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Speaker 2: that's when you did have some shootings on planes.

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Speaker 1: And that is that sort of where the idea of

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Speaker 1: that air marshal was born, where you have these people

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Speaker 1: undercover on planes and you never know who's going to

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Speaker 1: be one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is they did have a force of air marshals.

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Speaker 2: The problem is that there's so many flights home and

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Speaker 2: you could only hire so many air marshals. So I did,

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Speaker 2: in the course of this speak in my research speak

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Speaker 2: to people who had been air marshals, but none of

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Speaker 2: them actually ever stopped a hijacking. They maybe dealt with

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Speaker 2: like unruly drunken passengers and they had stories about that,

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Speaker 2: but none of them really stopped a hijacking. You just

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Speaker 2: couldn't hire enough of them.

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Speaker 1: So when seventy two, when this happens, there's still no

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Speaker 1: requirement to show identification along with your ticket.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely not, even then in nineteen seventy two. This

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Speaker 2: epidemic has been going on for more than eleven years

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Speaker 2: at this time, and yeah, pretty much the same thing

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Speaker 2: that you could still just walk through the terminal with

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Speaker 2: a gun in your jacket and no would say a word.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, So when Roger and Kathy are formulating this plan,

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Speaker 1: most of it seems to come from Roger. Does Roger

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Speaker 1: hold her have a way to get a hold of

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Speaker 1: Angela Davis to check in with her and see if

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Speaker 1: he pulls us off this is something she actually wants

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Speaker 1: to do, be dropped off in Vietnam?

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Speaker 2: That was a real flaw in the plan. He definitely

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Speaker 2: did not have a way to reach her, and in

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Speaker 2: fact jumping head just a little bit. When they had

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Speaker 2: their demands relayed to the airport in San Francisco and

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Speaker 2: they relayed those that instruction to Angela Davis, she said,

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Speaker 2: there's no way on Earth I'm getting on that plane

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Speaker 2: with this crazy person. I don't know smart Lin Good.

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Speaker 2: So that became a non starter that part of the

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Speaker 2: so he had to improvise a little bit.

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Speaker 1: So we are going to be talking about an airline

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Speaker 1: that I think is defunct. I'm pretty sure why Western

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Speaker 1: Airlines along with twa so Western Airlines flight seven oh one.

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Speaker 1: Where is it taking off from? And where is it

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Speaker 1: destined to go? When Roger and Kathy get.

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Speaker 2: Their tickets, so it's actually going from Los Angeles to

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Speaker 2: see they're going, and they actually fly almost all the

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Speaker 2: way to Seattle. It's not until the plane is descending

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Speaker 2: towards the airport in Seattle that Roger Holder calls over

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Speaker 2: one of the stewardesses and hands her a note. And

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Speaker 2: this is a part that he did think through. So

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Speaker 2: he basically said in the note, he claimed that he

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Speaker 2: was being forced to do this, that the weather underground

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Speaker 2: had kidnapped his children and was forcing him to carry

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Speaker 2: out this hijacking, and that there were three others on

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Speaker 2: the plane that were members of the Weather Underground, the

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Speaker 2: radical group, and so you know, obviously that created a

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Speaker 2: sense of fear, obviously pretending his numbers are larger than

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Speaker 2: they really are. And he had a briefcase and on

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Speaker 2: this note it had a diagram of the briefcase being

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Speaker 2: a bomb, and so he basically had a briefcase and

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Speaker 2: there was like a wire coming out of it and

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Speaker 2: a little ring on the wire and his finger was

359
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Speaker 2: through it, and he basically said, if I pulled this wire,

360
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Speaker 2: the whole plane's going to be a good blown up.

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Speaker 2: So you better take me to the cockpit right away.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So the flight attendant is, I'm sure very stressed out.

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Speaker 1: They're trained at this point, I'm sure to be incredibly

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Speaker 1: calm and not panic passengers who are thousands of feet

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Speaker 1: up in the air. So she reports to the pilot

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Speaker 1: and the co pilot, and what is their response, We're

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Speaker 1: going to go somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right, because that's the that's the official

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Speaker 2: policy of these airlines. And you have to see it

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Speaker 2: from the point of view of a captain. So the

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Speaker 2: captain has a responsibility for the safety of everyone aboard.

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Speaker 2: And so their number one thing is they don't care

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Speaker 2: if the airline's going to have to pay millions of

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Speaker 2: dollars or satisfy what every demands. All they're there to

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Speaker 2: do is guarantee the safety of the passengers. And it

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Speaker 2: was pretty much agreed upon that the way you do

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Speaker 2: that is by giving into their every demand so they

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Speaker 2: won't harm the passengers. So even if you're skeptical of like, well,

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Speaker 2: will this hijacker really hurt anybody, they always try to

380
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Speaker 2: air on the side of cautions. So they land in

381
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Speaker 2: Seattle and they immediately turn back around and fly to

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Speaker 2: San Francisco, which is where Roger Holder demanded they'd be

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Speaker 2: flown so they could obtain Angela Davis.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and then so what happens once they reached San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: So Roger Holder seeing that Angela Davis is not gonna

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Speaker 2: get with the program, and he demanded three million dollars

387
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Speaker 2: as well, and passage to Vietnam. Rustern Owen doesn't have

388
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Speaker 2: three million dollars, but they kind of negotiate, and so

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Speaker 2: they basically settle for half a million dollars. They'll bring

390
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Speaker 2: them half a million dollars in a big canvas sack,

391
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Speaker 2: and then Roger Holder makes kind of a snap decision,

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Speaker 2: doesn't consult with Kathy at all. Kathy is, by the way,

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Speaker 2: in the main cabin incognito. She has not revealed herself

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Speaker 2: to be part of this plan. She's actually sitting separately

395
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Speaker 2: from Roger, but she's aware that this was the plan.

396
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Speaker 2: And so Roger kind of in this kind of manick

397
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Speaker 2: state of things not going right and obviously he's having

398
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 2: some mental health issues, he makes the decision that he's

399
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Speaker 2: going to alter the plan severely, and so he no

400
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: longer wants to go to North Vietnam. He tells the

401
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Speaker 2: pilots that he now wants to go to Algiers in Algeria.

402
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Speaker 2: And this is an interesting choice and doesn't come out

403
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Speaker 2: of left field. So at that time, Algeria was kind of,

404
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 2: like I tell people, kind of like Venezuela today. It's

405
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 2: kind of like revolutionary socialist, anti American, anti Western country

406
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Speaker 2: that really welcomed all sorts of revolutionaries. So, for example,

407
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 2: the Vietcong had a villa in Algiers, and actually several

408
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: black Panthers lived there as well, including Eldridge Kleaver, the

409
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Speaker 2: very famous Minister of Information for the Black Panther Party,

410
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,679
Speaker 2: author of soul on Ice. He had fled to Cuba

411
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Speaker 2: to avoid arrest, and then had fled from Cuba to Algier,

412
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Speaker 2: and so he was there, and obviously Roger knew about

413
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Speaker 2: the Panthers being there, and so he just kind of

414
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 2: made this decision on the fly that well, I don't

415
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Speaker 2: have Angela Davis, so there's no more reason to go

416
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Speaker 2: to Vietnam. I guess let's go to Algeria. And no

417
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Speaker 2: one had ever requested to go there before. So what

418
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: he did is he okayed the release of half the

419
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: passengers in San Francisco. And then the other part is that,

420
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Speaker 2: you know, the plane that he hijacked was a seven

421
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Speaker 2: twenty seven, a Boeing seven twenty seven. It's a somewhat

422
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,959
Speaker 2: short distance jet, not something you can take over an

423
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 2: ocean at all. So he also had to request a

424
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Speaker 2: whole new jet capable of trans oceanic travel. Again total compliance,

425
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Speaker 2: he retained. He took half the passengers with him onto

426
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Speaker 2: the new plane. They got a new flight crew that

427
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: is kind of capable of doing transoceanic voyages, and they

428
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Speaker 2: flew to JFK Airport in New York, refueled there and

429
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Speaker 2: then flew to Algiers. He let off the rest of

430
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Speaker 2: the passengers in New York and then at the flight

431
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Speaker 2: crew and Roger Holder and Kathy flew to Algiers.

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Speaker 1: So, just to take a pause real quick, what would

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Speaker 1: happen now? I've been thinking that through half of the

434
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 1: story here. What would happen? Now? Are airlines number one

435
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 1: allowed to pay a ransom? And number two? You know,

436
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 1: I'm assuming nobody would let him switch planes these days,

437
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 1: they would somehow intervene.

438
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, because now the assumption is that

439
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 2: anyone who commits a hijacking is doing it to create

440
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 2: as much death and destruction as possible. So there's no

441
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: question in my mind there would be a police and

442
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 2: or military action taken against the plane that he was on,

443
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: that they he wouldn't be allowed to take off, There's

444
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: no question in my mind. So it really is hard

445
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 2: to wrap your head around if you're used to our

446
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 2: current climate and our current conception of terrorism. I mean,

447
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 2: this was in a sense, these were terroristic acts. These

448
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:03,479
Speaker 2: were people often with political ends, using violence spectacular you know,

449
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: examples of criminality to further political ends. So this was

450
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 2: early terrorism. But wasn't focused on killing as many people

451
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: as possible.

452
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,959
Speaker 1: Well, that's what's disturbing to me is the airlines are

453
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: clearly saying, look at the precedent, everything's been fine, nobody's

454
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: been murdered except I guess these pilots that we talked

455
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: about before, you know, and just counting on this not

456
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: escalating when clearly we're at a point in seventy two

457
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 1: that this has escalated. Has a weather underground ever done anything,

458
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: been involved with any of these or he just pulled

459
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: that out of thin air, essentially because they were an

460
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: organization that had caused some big problems.

461
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he pulled that out of thin air. So in

462
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 2: my research, these were all generally people who when they

463
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: did and they often did, claim affiliation with organized groups

464
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: like the Black Panther Party or like Puerto Rican liberation groups,

465
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: but if you scrasp me at the surface, oftentimes they

466
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: had no actual interactions with those groups. They were people

467
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: who had were a desperate personal situations. They had lost

468
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: their families, they lost jobs, they were wanted by the

469
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: law was very frequent, like Roger Holder, of course, and

470
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 2: so that was really the unifying threat. It was people

471
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: who felt they had nothing left to lose, essentially, and

472
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: they would claim a political cause and maybe something that

473
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 2: really genuinely did interest them. So you know, for example,

474
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 2: Roger Holder was deeply obviously, deeply, genuinely scarred by his

475
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: service in Vietnam, but you know, he didn't have any

476
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: affiliation with the Weather Underground, had never interactions with the

477
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: Black Panther Party none at all.

478
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: So tell me what happens, you know, after they let

479
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: half of the passengers off, So then does everybody, you know,

480
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: half of this plane plus the crew, plus Roger and Kathy,

481
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: do they all go straight to Algiers or is there

482
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: another stop along the way?

483
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? I no, So basically in San Francisco they let

484
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 2: half the passengers off. The other half have to go,

485
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 2: unfortunately to New York where they land at JFK for refueling.

486
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: That's where Roger lets off those passengers. And so the

487
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: only three people left aboard other than Roger and Kathy

488
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: are the three members of the flight crew, the pilot,

489
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: the co pilot, and the navigator. And so it's the

490
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: five of them who fly to Algiers together.

491
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: Which is even riskier because now it's two people versus

492
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: these three and two of course, are all three of

493
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 1: them are occupied with trying to keep the plane going.

494
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure this must have been terrifying, either for the

495
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: crew or of course the passengers. Who did you end

496
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: up talking to?

497
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I talked to several crew members, both flight

498
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: attendants and people part members of the flight crews, and

499
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: several passengers as well. On the Algiers bound leg I

500
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: talked to the captain William Newell, and he said, the

501
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: thing that terrified him the most was, you know, Algeria

502
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: was a hostile nation to the United States, So the

503
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: thing that freaked him out the most was them getting

504
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: shot down by fighter jets on approach to Algiers really

505
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 2: really concerned him.

506
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: So what would be the protocol? Would that be calling

507
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: ahead and saying you're going to see a flight It's

508
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 1: been this is not us doing The Americans are not

509
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: doing this. We've been hijacked. What do we do? Is

510
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: that what they ended up having to do. Yeah.

511
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: So, Fortunately, although we didn't have official diplomatic relations with

512
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: Algeria at this time, we did have an American interest

513
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: officer in Algiers. They got him and he was able

514
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: to contact the Algerian government and explain the situation. As

515
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: best he could. In fact, the Algerians were pleased to

516
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: have this flight coming in partly because it's like a

517
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: real black eye for their enemies, the Americans, that these people,

518
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, stole this jet and brought it to Algiers.

519
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 2: There was a little trepidation. Obviously they didn't totally know

520
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: who these people were. So when they did land in Algiers,

521
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: there was interview by the government that they determined pretty

522
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: quickly that these people were essentially harmless and were just

523
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: kind of a couple of people who lucked into pulling

524
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: this off in a lot of ways.

525
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: So did Roger and Kathy actually get this. It's half

526
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: a million dollars I think, is what you said they

527
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: settled for out of three million, is it right?

528
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. So they brought the five hundred thousand dollars.

529
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: They left five thousand dollars in the oven of the

530
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: galley of the plane as a tip for the flight crew,

531
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 2: and then, unfortunately for them, the Algerian government seized the

532
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: money and returned it to Western Airlines light several thousand dollars.

533
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: More clearly, someone stuck their hand in the bag and

534
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: took out a couple of bundles a couple of bundles

535
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 2: of cash, but they actually ultimately did not get to

536
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 2: keep the money.

537
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: I mean, just to be cynical here, I would be

538
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: expecting if I were Algiers, I'd be expecting a lot

539
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: of money from Western Airlines for not shooting down their

540
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: plane as is approaching, you know, I mean, I wonder

541
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: why they didn't cut a deal like Castro must have done.

542
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. I think on some level they are

543
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: just so stunned that this happened in a lot of ways,

544
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: so interestingly enough. You know, soon after this, about six

545
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: weeks later, another group of American hijackers also demanded passage

546
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: to Algeria. It was a group from Detroit of five

547
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: adults and three children. In fact, hijacked a plane that

548
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,239
Speaker 2: was bound from Miami and flew into Algeria, and they

549
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: got a million dollars in ransom. And I think that's

550
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: actually when the president of Algeria decided that this might

551
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: be a little creative and didn't want to be in

552
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: the business of hosting American hijackers anymore.

553
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: Well, let's just briefly go back onto the plane, because

554
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, I have a sense for Roger. His life's

555
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: falling apart. But he's met this new young woman who's

556
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: basically willing to go along for the ride, but he's

557
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: unraveling mentally. It sounds like, did anybody talk about what

558
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: he was like or what Kathy was like on the

559
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: plane ride? Was he erratic? Was he calm? What were

560
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: their characteristics like?

561
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,959
Speaker 2: One thing I should say about Roger is that, you know,

562
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 2: during the time before he executed the hijacking, he was

563
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: very normal. So this flight attendant I spoke with said

564
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: he was very pleasant and nice. He was wearing an

565
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: army dress uniform. One memory she had is that he

566
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: ordered a bourbon and she brought the drink and she

567
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: spilled some on him by accident, and she was very

568
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: apologetic and said she'd get a dry cleaning voucher for him.

569
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: But he was very cool about it, very nice. That

570
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: no need, so there was no indication that to observer

571
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: if there was anything wrong. When he went into the

572
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: cockpit and then was in the cockpit for most of

573
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: the rest of the hijacking, he was chain smoking marijuana

574
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: throughout this time, because you could also bring drugs as

575
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: well as weapons onto planes. So he did say I

576
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: remember speaking to the navigator, the first navigator, because they

577
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: did switch flight cruise in San Francisco, and the first

578
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: navigator was telling me that, you know, he didn't love

579
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: the fact that, you know, he was filling up the

580
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: cockpit with marijuana smoke, and you know, Roger was explaining, well,

581
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: this is the one thing that like calms me down

582
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: and makes me feel okay. So clearly trying to self

583
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: medicate to some extent. As for Kathy, you know, it

584
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: wasn't until really New York City that people realized that

585
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 2: she was in on this. You know, she didn't seem

586
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: alarmed or panic throughout. I think the only time people

587
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: got suspicious of her is that, you know, when Roger

588
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: went to the cockpit and after the hijacking me going

589
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: on for a while, he had left another bag by

590
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: his seat, and so some of the passengers started rummaging

591
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 2: around the bag, and Kathy actually objected to them doing it,

592
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: which they all thought was very strange that she would

593
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: care what they were rummaging around a hijacker's bag. Other

594
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: than that, there was no real indication she played cards

595
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: with a seat mate, just really pleasant and calm.

596
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: So we have now landed in Algiers and the Algerian

597
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: government has interviewed him and said, nith the you know,

598
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: these two people aren't going to cause any problems here,

599
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: I guess right. And then the Western Airlines plane leaves.

600
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: What is the first thing that Roger and Kathy do? Do?

601
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: They seek out Cleaver since this seems to be one

602
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: purpose of coming here, is this you know, iconic man.

603
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So initially the Algerian government puts them up in

604
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: a pretty fancy hotel, a beautiful old colonial hotel in Algiers,

605
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: and they stay there for a little bit until now

606
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 2: Duran government feels comfortable with them and they get interviewed,

607
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: and then yes, they transfer them essentially to the custody

608
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 2: of the Black Panthers. It was called the Black Panther

609
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: International Section, which is basically just this commune that's headed

610
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 2: by Aldridge Kleaver and his wife Kathleen Cleaver. And you

611
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: have several prominent figures from the Black Panther Party who

612
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: had fled the States, often to avoid arrest or trial

613
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 2: for alleged crimes, living together in this old villa in Algiers.

614
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: Where is their money coming from to be able to

615
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 1: do this? Are people working? Are they being funded from

616
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: the Black panthers in America.

617
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 2: So this is one reason why ALDRIDG. Kleaver took particular

618
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: interest in these hijackers, because he wanted the ransom money.

619
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: They had some money from supporters from the US. They

620
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: were a popular cause in the US, so they had

621
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: some money, not directly from the party, but from the

622
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: support orders, you know, wealthy people who sympathize with their

623
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: aims and goals. But it was drying up, it was

624
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: getting low. They were running out of money. At this time.

625
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: Elders Cleverer knew they needed new sources of income and revenue,

626
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: and so he really pressed the Algerian government to give

627
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: him the half million dollars that Roger and Kathy took

628
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: his ransom. And then six weeks later when this high

629
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: so called hijacking family lands with the million dollars, he

630
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: is so jazz to get this money. Actually, they drive

631
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: out to the airport, they get the hijacking family on

632
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: this bus to take them into central Algiers. There's a great,

633
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: a great moment where they are falling on this car

634
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 2: and elders Clever leans out the car and yells up

635
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: to them on the bus like don't give up the bread,

636
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: don't give up the bread because he doesn't want the

637
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: Algerian government taking the money again. But they do.

638
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, But what did they end up? What

639
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: does Cleaver end up with from Rogers hijacking?

640
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: Nothing except two more mouths defeat.

641
00:33:59,200 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

642
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: You know, this is really the beginning of the end

643
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: of Cleaver's time in Algiers. He really creates a lot

644
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 2: of problems for himself by giving the Algerian government a

645
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 2: hard time about the fact that he didn't give him

646
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: the money. He directly complains to the president, who obviously

647
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: is letting him stay in the country as a guest.

648
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: This really infuriates the president. The president has their villa rated,

649
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: they can kind of see the handwriting on the wall,

650
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: and really, towards an end of nineteen seventy two, these

651
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: members of the Black Panther Instructive flee Algiers.

652
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: Wow, now you had mentioned there's another hijacking.

653
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: Is that right?

654
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: That kind of ends terribly. Do you want to tell

655
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: me about that before we get back to Roger and

656
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: Kathy and where they end up next in this grand

657
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: adventure of theirs? Sure?

658
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is really the hijacking I wanted

659
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: to talk about is the one that really ends this epidemic,

660
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: this golden era of hijacking in November of nineteen seventy two.

661
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: This has been just a terrible year for hijackings. They're

662
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 2: progressively more and more crazy. And in this instance, you

663
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 2: have a group of three men who hijack a small

664
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: commuter plane in Alabama and Mississippi. It's just you know,

665
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: doing the local route there. And their concept they had

666
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: a real beef with the Detroit Police Department. They had

667
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: felt ill treated, and so they wanted to go to

668
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: Detroit and demand ten million dollars in ransom from the

669
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: airline to be paid by the airline, and they'd make

670
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 2: a big show of getting this in Detroit to kind

671
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: of be like a big middle finger to the Detroit

672
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: Police department. Detroit is having terrible weather, it's fogged in,

673
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: so they can't land there. They end up like going

674
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: to Toronto after flying around a bit to refuel. This

675
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: airline question is called Southern Airways. They don't have a

676
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 2: ton of money. They somehow get someone a loan them

677
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: some cash, you know. They basically it's a small amount

678
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: of money and they're like the hijacker's like, no, we

679
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 2: want the full ten million dollars, so they take off again,

680
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 2: and at this time the hijackers decided to drink all

681
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: of the liquor that was in the liquor cabinet of

682
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,879
Speaker 2: the galley, and so now they're highly intoxicated, and they

683
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 2: decide to One of them is from Tennessee, and so

684
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: they decide to fly to Tennessee, and they start circling

685
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: Oakridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. And the thing about Oakridge

686
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 2: is it has at its heart a uranium two thirty

687
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 2: five reactor. And so what these intoxicated hijackers tell the

688
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: airline is that if they don't get the full ten

689
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: million dollars, they're going to crash the plane into the

690
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,280
Speaker 2: nuclear reactor. So of course this really gets people panicked.

691
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: For good reason, Southern Airways somehow managed to scrounge up

692
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: two million dollars, a fantastic sum for a small deep

693
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: South commuter airline. The hijackers land the plane in Tennessee,

694
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 2: they bring the two million dollars in the plane, and

695
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 2: fortunately for the good people of Tennessee, the hidirogratys who

696
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: drunk to count it, they just think it's a ton

697
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: of money. So they think they got the full ten million.

698
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: They end up trying to fly to Cuba. They get

699
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: turned back, they land in Florida, the FBI shoots out

700
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 2: the tires of the plane, but they take off anyway

701
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: back to Cuba, and they land in Cuba with no

702
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: landing gear, essentially no landing wheels. The pilots make this

703
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 2: miraculous touchdown at Havana Airport, and this is it for Castro.

704
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 2: He's had enough. He arrests all three of these men,

705
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 2: throws them essentially into a dungeon for years and years

706
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 2: and years until he eventually lets them go I think

707
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: eight or nine years later, but just horrific, horrific conditions

708
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: in a Cuban dungeon. So that really represented the end

709
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: for Castro, but also the end for the airline's resistance

710
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 2: to security, because you know, for them, they looked at

711
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: this incident and said, we came this close to you know,

712
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 2: haveing planes uses weapons of mass destruction and maybe turning

713
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: a good chunk of Tennessee into a nuclear wasteland, and

714
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: just the liability of that issues around that would absolutely

715
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 2: destroy our industry, the entire industry. And so it's really

716
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: right after that they dropped their opposition to President Nixon

717
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: making a mandate for universal passenger screening. So on January fifth,

718
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, is the first day that you have

719
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: what we all know and love, which is your bag

720
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: gets checked, gets X rayed, and they'd check your person

721
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: to see if you're carrying any weapons or anything like

722
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: views in a hijacking. So it was pretty much in

723
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 2: direct response to a near miss with annihilation in Tennessee.

724
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: Gosh, that's unbelievable, And you're right, I had never heard

725
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 1: that before, you know. I mean, I work in kind

726
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: of deep eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, and I wrote

727
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: in my second book about a train robbery that happened

728
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: in the dumbest of why and the guys didn't know

729
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: what they were doing, these train robbers. But part of

730
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: this was they grew up with the Black bart you know,

731
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: the people riding on horseback and jumping onto trains, And

732
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: finally the government got smart and they put US marines

733
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: on all the trains who were armed, and then they

734
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,720
Speaker 1: put all of the money in safes so you couldn't

735
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: just jump on a train and grab the money and leave.

736
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: So so much of the time it does seem like

737
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: that kind of intervention, how do we make it more

738
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: difficult for somebody? And I also remember the shoebomber you know,

739
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: who luckily didn't pull it off, and everybody complained, why

740
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: do I have to take my shoes off? And now

741
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: it's just sort of a common practice. So it's interesting

742
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: what we adapt to when these sort of events happen.

743
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And interestingly enough, like once they

744
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: instituted that security, like hijacking's basic dropped to zero for

745
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: that entire year. It was ultimately a fairly easy fix,

746
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: and at that point a fix that people were willing

747
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 2: to accept because the general public had gotten tired of

748
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: the craziness and the fear. And you know, it wasn't

749
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: just people going to Cuba anymore and you'd have a

750
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: nice story about being at a hotel in Havana. It

751
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: was a real sense that any flight you took in

752
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: the continent of the United States could end up with

753
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: your death, and that had become too much for passengers

754
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: to bear.

755
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: Before we get back to Roger, what did September eleventh

756
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: change exactly what was in place before? Like I said,

757
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 1: I remember meeting my dad at the gate. And what

758
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: changed after September eleventh.

759
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 2: The policy of total compliance with the hijackers fell by

760
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 2: the wayside, right because the policy of total compliance that

761
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 2: the airlines had adopted during this era of these frequent

762
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 2: hijackings was premised on the fact that like, well, these

763
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: people just wanted to negotiate, and then we kind of

764
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: learned a September eleventh, no, they don't want to negotiate.

765
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: They just want to crash the plane into buildings and

766
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: cause as much death and destruction as possible. So that

767
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 2: was the end of the policy of total compliance. I

768
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: think two is putting security in the hands of the

769
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: govern So what's interesting is that when security was instituted

770
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,240
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy three, there was a real argument between

771
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: the airlines and the government. The airlines thought the government

772
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 2: should handle all the security, that there should be what

773
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: we now have the TSA, which would mean they wouldn't

774
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 2: have to pay for it, and the government thought the

775
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: airline should have to hire their, you know, full time

776
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 2: security personnel to do all these checks. They made a compromise,

777
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: which was that the airlines would be responsible, but they

778
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: could hire a third party independent contractors. The problem with

779
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: that is that, as a business responsible to shareholders, you're

780
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: always looking to hire the cheapest contractors possible. And so,

781
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: you know, one of the vulnerabilities is that, you know,

782
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 2: the people doing security on September eleventh were people but

783
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: just not a lot of training, who were getting paid

784
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: minimum wage, weren't really you know, in a position or

785
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: training to stop people that had planned, you know, to

786
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: that degree. And so September eleventh came and it was

787
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: basically the government saying, Okay, what the airlines wanted in

788
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two, we're going to do. We're going to

789
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: create a federal force to handle this.

790
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: Okay, if we go back to nineteen seventy two, now

791
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: with Roger and Kathy, they hitch their cart to the

792
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,439
Speaker 1: wrong horse with Cleaver because things are not going well

793
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 1: for the black Panthers in Algiers. What's the next step

794
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: for Roger and Kathy? I mean, this is not Australia,

795
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: That's where they wanted to be, right.

796
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 2: That's true. So essentially these panthers start to flee Algiers

797
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 2: towards the end of nineteen seventy two. In fact, so

798
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,760
Speaker 2: many of them leave that at one point, very briefly

799
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 2: Roger is actually elected the head of the Black Panther

800
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: International Section. You know, just a couple people left at

801
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: that point, but eventually even they feel that they have

802
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: to leave, they really follow the most popular route, which

803
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: is they were able to get transportation to France. Basically,

804
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 2: they were able to get a car from Algiers kind

805
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: of across the desert to a port and to get

806
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: a ship that takes them to France and then go

807
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: to Paris, where there are a lot of people who

808
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: are sympathizers, wealthy sympathizers with the Black Panthers, and kind

809
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 2: of a network of people who are able to care

810
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: for them. So they really spend you know, much of

811
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: like seventy three and seventy four living in the Paris

812
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: apartments of people who support the Black Panther Party.

813
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: But money and stability won't stop Roger from continuing to unravel.

814
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: I'm assuming, based on everything that happened in Vietnam, how

815
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: does life really go for the two of them in Paris,

816
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: for those at least for those first few years.

817
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, So one thing is that you're correct, and that

818
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: Roger continues to have serious mental health issues and so

819
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: kind of a dynamic of the relationship changes, which I

820
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 2: think is so interesting, and that clearly in the early

821
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 2: months of their relationship, you know, Roger is the one

822
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: who makes the hijacking plans, and Kathy's kind of a

823
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: lot more along for the ride. As his mental condition deteriorates.

824
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 2: During this time in Paris, it really becomes Kathy who's

825
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: the one leading the relationship, who's caring for Roger, who's

826
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 2: able to function. She learns French very very quickly, becomes

827
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: pretty much fluent by nineteen seventy five, and she really

828
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: takes the lead in the relationship, but also starts to

829
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: forge relationships of her own with people in Parisian society,

830
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 2: and so over time is less and less of a

831
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: presence in Roger's life at a time when he definitely

832
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 2: needs someone increasingly to care for him.

833
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 1: So they split up at some point.

834
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: They actually don't split up until nineteen seventy seven is

835
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: the last time that they're together. And I should backtrack

836
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: a little bit to say something really dramatic happens in

837
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: January nineteen seventy five is that Roger is stopped by

838
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: the Parisian police and he doesn't have a passport or

839
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 2: anything like that, and they essentially figure out pretty quickly

840
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: who he is, and so both him and Kathy are

841
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 2: arrested and are brought to court, and of course the

842
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: United States makes an extradition request to bring them back

843
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 2: to the US to put them on trial for hijacking,

844
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: and actually their case becomes a cause celebra in Paris.

845
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 2: This is a time, of course, when public attitudes in

846
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: France are very anti American, a lot of it around

847
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: the Vietnam War and public opposition to the Vietnam War.

848
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: There's a very strong, like leftist political element that lionizes

849
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 2: Kathy and Roger. Basically, they get a very good attorney

850
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: who makes the argument that this hijacking was fundamentally political

851
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 2: in nature, that it was a protest against the Vietnam War.

852
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 2: You cannot be extradited for crimes in which you might

853
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: be persecuted for political beliefs if returned to the country

854
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: of origin, and so ultimately the court in France rules

855
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 2: that they will not be extradited. They continue to live

856
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 2: in France. They're just cited for or entry into France

857
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: without a visa, but they're allowed to live there without

858
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: threat of extradition anymore.

859
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: What's the next step for Roger and Kathy. He is

860
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: continuing to have mental health struggles. She seems to be flourishing,

861
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: and what is she's in her mid twenties by now,

862
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: later twenties.

863
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she's twenty in nineteen seventy two, you're right.

864
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: So they basically become quite well known in Paris after

865
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 2: this case. They kind of hobnob with high society. They're

866
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 2: hanging out with like Jean Paul Sartre. They have a

867
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: very wealthy benefactor who's a part of French nobility, who

868
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: has a chateau in Normandy where they go and spend

869
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,720
Speaker 2: time with Joem Bias. Also, you're right. Roger continues to unravel.

870
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: He spends actually time in a hospital for his mental

871
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 2: health issues, and Kathy is increasingly less interested in spending

872
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 2: time with him. She is spending time with her wealthy,

873
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: fancy friends. She has other boyfriends. She's not exclusive with

874
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: Roger at all. She's more like a caretaker this point,

875
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 2: and in nineteen seventy seven she shows up. They're actually

876
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 2: living separately at this point. He shows up at the

877
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 2: apartment where he's living and he's just working odd jobs.

878
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: He's like a bouncer at a bar and stuff like that,

879
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 2: and she shows up and gives him a watch, which

880
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 2: is kind of understood to be a parting gift, and

881
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: then he never sees her again.

882
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: Well, how does he get along without her? With these

883
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 1: mental health struggles.

884
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: It's very difficult for him. So he does have you know,

885
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 2: wealthy benefactor who provides him with an apartment. He works

886
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 2: odd jobs. He often lives off women. He's kind of

887
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: a jigglow. He's a very good looking, charismatic guy. So

888
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 2: he has girlfriends who will take care of him and

889
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: devil with the relationships don't work out because of his struggles.

890
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: He does go in and out of some mental institutions

891
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: during this time. But yeah, it's a very difficult time

892
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 2: for him. And he does actually at one point go

893
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: to an associated press bureau in Paris and say he

894
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: very much wants to come back to the US, but

895
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 2: that he's obviously scared of being prosecuted.

896
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: Is it because he just feels alone or uncomfortable even

897
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: though he's been there for years, it's still the he

898
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 1: needs to be closer to people.

899
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 2: Or what I think part of it is he wants

900
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,959
Speaker 2: to see his family. I neglected to say this early

901
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: on our conversation, but he actually had from a high

902
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 2: school girlfriend, twin daughters that he really had played no

903
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 2: role in their lives. He obviously went to Vietnam after

904
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: their birth. He had aging parents, siblings, and he just

905
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 2: had a really difficult situation in Paris. What had been

906
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: glamorous and great written really soured and those years for

907
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 2: him are very difficult in the late seventies and early eighties.

908
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: So he finally realizes that his family is important, and

909
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: as he's unraveling, he wants that stability. He wants to

910
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: see his twin girls, he wants to see his parents,

911
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: so he ultimately decides to go back to the United States.

912
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. So in nineteen eighty four, he

913
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: just voluntarily gets on a flight and flies back to

914
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 2: JFK Airport in New York and is arrested the second

915
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: he gets off the plane. And if you knew that

916
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 2: was going to happen, but at that point it's what

917
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: he wanted. He does get really effective legal representation, there's

918
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: mitigating circumstances around his mental health issues, around his military service.

919
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: And this shocks people when I say this, but he

920
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: ends up only spending three years in prison. He gets

921
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 2: out in nineteen eighty seven and moves back to San

922
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 2: Diego where his family is, and really lives out his

923
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: days there.

924
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: Well, So does he move in with his daughters or

925
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: his parents or how does he end up being taken

926
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: care of?

927
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 2: He does not. He actually ends up in a long

928
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 2: term relationship with an older woman who had five children

929
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 2: from an earlier relationship, and they are together for many years.

930
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 2: And so when I did interview Roger at length for

931
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 2: this book, it was done in the apartment, the studio

932
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: apartment they shared in San Diego.

933
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: Did he reconnect with his daughters?

934
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 2: He did reconnect with his daughter. It's a somewhat strained

935
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: relationship as I understand it, but he was He did

936
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: have relationship with his families, with his family members after

937
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: his return.

938
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: Yes, did he finally get the mental health that he

939
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: obviously needed?

940
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: He did. He did get help through the VA. It

941
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: was always hard for him to work in the US. Definitely,

942
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: his common law wife took really good care of him.

943
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: You know, I had wonderful conversations with him. A really engaging, charismatic,

944
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 2: funny guy with incredible stories, but also someone who made

945
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: some extremely puzzling and terrible decisions in his life that

946
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: really affected people's lives very negatively. So an extremely complex character.

947
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,919
Speaker 1: This story really does bring home to me. You meet

948
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: one person and they just change everything in your life,

949
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:50,919
Speaker 1: and then it falls apart, and then it comes back

950
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: together and you're living in Paris, and then it falls apart,

951
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: and then you end up with this wonderful person who has,

952
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: you know, love and empathy for you, and he ends up.

953
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: It sounds like having a good afterlife here. So just

954
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 1: I mean two women who made a very drastic difference

955
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: in this man's life, and obviously he changed their lives

956
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: for better or her worse.

957
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think he certainly achieved some measure of

958
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: peace with his common law wife. I often wonder about

959
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 2: the situation with Kathy and that I think in some

960
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 2: ways he provided something that she was looking for, which

961
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 2: is just the most radical act of reinvention. And this

962
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 2: is a woman from a small town who clearly wanted

963
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: something different out of life, and I think was just

964
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 2: looking for a way to make the sharpest break possible

965
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: with who she was, and he provided it for her.

966
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: Well. I'm certainly curious to see where Kathy, who came

967
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 1: from this small town in America and turned into sort

968
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: of a French social lighte headed. But one last question

969
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: about Roger, So was he still alive as far as

970
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: you know.

971
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 2: No, he's unfortunately passed away right before the book came out,

972
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: passed away in twenty twelve. So I discussed this in

973
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 2: the book. He was ill. He was a heavy smoker,

974
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: I should say, he basically changed smoke pall Mall's the

975
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 2: entire time that we were talking in his studio apartment.

976
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: He unfortunately had a lot of physiological health issues, and

977
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 2: he unfortunately passed away before the book came out.

978
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: So now let's go back to Kathy. He left in

979
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: eighty four, even though you know they had broken up

980
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: years before that. Where does she in depth? Last time

981
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: we heard from her, she's in her mid twenties heading

982
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: into late twenties in Paris.

983
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 2: The last time we really know what happened to her

984
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 2: is that she crossed the border into Switzerland to go

985
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 2: to the embassy in Switzerland, and she got a new passport,

986
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: not in her real name probably, but she was able

987
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 2: to get new documentation, a new passport. And that's the

988
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 2: last time that anyone really knows what happened to her.

989
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 2: She is in fact a wanted fugitive to this day

990
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: by the FBI. Every once in a while you'll see

991
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: her poster come up. The FBI contacted me after the

992
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: book came out and asked me if I had any

993
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: information about her whereabouts. So really, once she was able

994
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: to get a new documentation, she might have been able

995
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: she could have done a lot of things with that.

996
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: She might have been able to get French citizenship or

997
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: papers in France, or travel elsewhere. So she's very much

998
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 2: in the wind to this day. And you know, the

999
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,760
Speaker 2: FBI is still working on this. You know, they worked

1000
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 2: on this pretty intensely throughout the nineteen eighties. They kept

1001
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 2: on contacting family members of hers back in Oregon and

1002
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 2: Washington State, and they concluded that she never contacted any

1003
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 2: of them, that she never contacted her family again. So

1004
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 2: it is a mystery. Perhaps she died young, Perhaps she

1005
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: was making some poor choices and living a high risk lifestyle.

1006
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 2: She was definitely running in fast circles. Or maybe she

1007
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: settled down with one of her boyfriends and just reinvented

1008
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 2: herself completely, just discarded her in her old self.

1009
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 1: Well, and she absolutely could still be alive right, she

1010
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: would be at seventy four, seventy five at this point.

1011
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, not that old, So it's very possible. So

1012
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 2: a big piece of me always fantasizes about getting that

1013
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: phone call from her that I'm saying I read the

1014
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 2: book and I want to let you know that I

1015
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 2: know where I am or something like that, But hasn't

1016
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 2: happened yet, unfortunately.

1017
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: And Roger never heard from her again after she gave

1018
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: him that watch.

1019
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: No, Roger never heard from her again.

1020
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: So Roger in eighty four only gets three years for

1021
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: hijacking this plane. What would Cathy get? Now? Do you

1022
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,959
Speaker 1: think what would the intention of the FBI be if

1023
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: she did pop up somewhere.

1024
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: I would think that she would probably be treated more

1025
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 2: harshly than Roger was. Obviously, you would be construed in

1026
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: a post nine to eleven world as a pretty terrifying

1027
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 2: example of polical violence. So it's very hard for me

1028
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: to imagine, you know, just getting a slap on the

1029
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 2: wrist given the circumstances.

1030
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know, you've written this book that I

1031
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: find fast about hostages and hijackers and the political you know,

1032
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: the way that this was used in politics as sort

1033
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: of a weaponization of it. And then really what it

1034
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: comes down to the characters, at least the way I

1035
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: see it in your story is you're right, this rapid change,

1036
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 1: this need to just completely redefine themselves, which I think

1037
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,399
Speaker 1: a lot of people want, and very few people are

1038
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: able to do because they're scared or you know, they

1039
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 1: don't want to lose things. And I'm certainly not lionizing

1040
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: these people, but it's interesting that they were able to

1041
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 1: just make a switch and adapt and ended up actually

1042
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 1: on the better end of it essentially, which is disturbing also.

1043
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: Well, to me, it's a really American story because I

1044
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 2: think the fundamental promise of America is the promise of reinvention,

1045
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: but it's obviously far more complicated in practice than in

1046
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 2: the ideal. And I'm also fascinated by people who pursue

1047
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: this fundamentally American promise by leaving America. That's really one

1048
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: of the themes of the book, that they were able

1049
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 2: to achieve this radical reinvention by leaving behind everything they knew,

1050
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 2: including their families. And so I'm very fascinated by the

1051
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 2: tension of achieving this dream of reinventing oneself with the

1052
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: American promise, but it also means there's a price to

1053
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: be paid, is all. I can say that you leave

1054
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: behind people who are scarred and hurt by the abandonment.

1055
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that doesn't weigh heavily on them at

1056
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 2: points in their lives.

1057
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1058
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1059
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are

1060
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1061
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1062
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1063
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

1064
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1065
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by

1066
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1067
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,

1068
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,800
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1069
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,080
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1070
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