WEBVTT - Joe Coscarelli 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.320 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.560 My guest today is New York Times reporter Joe Coscarelli. 0:00:16.960 --> 0:00:22.040 You've got a great new book, Rack Capital in Atlanta Story. Joe, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.680 Why the book? What inspired you? You know, Bob, this 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.960 book really came out of my reporting at the Times. Right. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:32.920 I'm I'm the music reporter here in the culture section. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.880 I started in late you know, the sort of dawn 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.920 really of the streaming era, right. And and one of 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.839 the stories I kept coming back to, uh, you know 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.519 in my time as the beat reporter was rapp in Atlanta. Right. 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.760 I did an early story on artist by the name 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.520 of Little Yachti. UM that was actually a men's style 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:57.240 cover because he was, you know, sort of moving through 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.520 the fashion and influencer world at the beginning. Even more 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:04.080 southern music. UM. I did an early story, UM when 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.720 me Goos hit number one with Bad Embugie UM their 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.880 album Culture. I profiled them on that album. I around 0:01:11.880 --> 0:01:14.600 the same time, you know, I did a story on 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.840 this label Quality Control U down there that was you know, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:20.760 both Yaddi and and me Goos came from that label 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.360 and they were sort of the homegrown talent incubators of 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.160 the moment in Atlanta. And you know, just over and 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.000 over again, you would see as streaming sort of you know, 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.280 knocked down these walls, Uh, the for what kind of 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.280 music people really wanted to hear write. Billboard charts were 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.479 changing as a result of of YouTube and and Spotify 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.040 and Apple Music. Uh, and always bubbling to the top 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.040 where these sort of you know, very raw Southern rap 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.600 albums and songs. And this is something I grew up 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:53.080 on as well. This is the kind of music I 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.279 listened to when I was younger, growing up in the South. Um. 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.680 And so the combination of that with my Times reporting, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.480 I was just coming into contact with all of these characters, uh, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.840 these labels, these sounds, and and it was just over 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:08.760 and over again. And you know, I had a I 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.880 had an agent and and a book editor. Uh we 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.680 can get into that. He published Gucci Main's autobiography. Um. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.359 The the editor who ended up acquiring this book. And 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.119 you know, they kept asking me what kind of book 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.680 I wanted to write. Rap music was something that was 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.040 obviously in the conversation, but I never really found the 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:28.400 right story. And after a handful of these Atlanta stories, 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:30.680 you know, they both came to me and they said this, like, 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:35.679 this is this is the book. Okay, So actually they 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.800 were looking unlike the usual story where an author is 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.440 pushing the book, you already had a relationship, and it 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.519 was their idea that they should be the book. Yeah. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.040 I think that's right. You know, I I have been thinking, 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.320 you know, is a book the next step in my career? Uh? 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.520 You know, I, like I said, I started at the Times. 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.720 So now it's been almost eight years. Uh, this was 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.120 somewhere in the middle of this book was a really 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.880 long reporting process us. Um. But you know they they 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.080 saw a book in me before I saw a book 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:09.640 in me, I think, um. And it took some convincing honestly, 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.960 Like I wasn't sure what the story was, and I 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.799 didn't want to just retread the reporting I had already done. Um. 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:17.840 And I didn't want to just write a music book, right. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.200 I didn't just want to write an unauthorized biography of 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.240 of an artist, which I think, you know, there's a 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.040 place for those, but that's you know, the music bookshelves 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.880 in in in any store are sort of overrun with 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.000 that sort of run of the mill like cradle to 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.840 grave story and so you know, I I wanted to 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.960 do something different. Um. I wanted to do a lot 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.840 of reporting, That's what I what I really like to do. UM. 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:46.800 And I wanted to track a story in real time. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.040 So I think, uh, you know, a lot of a 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.440 lot of what ended up becoming the book was because 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.280 I wanted to to take what I had done in 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.920 the Times and then sort of spin it into something 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.440 that I could be along for, right. I wanted to 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.560 be along for the ride. And and I think that's 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:03.760 a through line that runs, uh through a lot of 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:05.880 the reporting I do at the Times. I like to 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.600 find people at the beginning of their career and and 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.480 see where it goes, whether it's you know, to the 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.360 top of the charts, or it's sort of founders like 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:17.640 I think both can be equally interesting. Now there's a 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:21.440 lot of reporting on the hip hop scene. And when 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.880 you wrote your first articles about Luyahti and quality control, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.200 was there so much information in the pipeline that you 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.680 were up to speed or did this require reporting and 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:38.080 deep reporting by yourself? You know, there's a lot of 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.480 really good background, right like the Wrap reporting throughout the 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.599 nineties and early two thousand's. Uh, it is invaluable. Um, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.320 you know, thinking of the Village Voice, thinking of double 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.359 XL later on the Fader. Uh. You know, ton of 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:58.000 ton of websites really covering regional scenes. But there's something 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.360 about hip hop media. I think that's a has been 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.320 very ephemeral um And and this goes for the music 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.839 as well, Right, there are hundreds thousands of mixtapes that 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.560 are sort of lost to time because they exist in 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:14.159 this liminal space between legality and illegality. Um. And I 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.080 think a lot of hip hop media has has followed 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.640 that path. You know, given how popular as music is, um, 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.640 how important these artists are, how interesting their their biographies 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.400 and their stories are, there's a sort of a real 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:29.279 dearth of serious reporting on these subjects. So you could 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.280 piece stuff together here and there, you know, YouTube and 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.000 invaluable resource, I think when it comes to comes to 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:40.479 rap music, um and so you know, you could you 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:44.080 could sort of piece things together, um, but there wasn't 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:49.800 a ton of extremely in depth, extremely rigorous journalism on 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.920 these subjects. Um. You know, they're a handful of books 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.320 as I started the research process. Um. But a lot 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.720 of these guys also become famous really quickly. Right, So 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:06.320 when I'm profiling Little Yati and sixteen whatever it was. Uh, 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:08.880 you know he he had been just a normal college 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.200 kid right like a few months prior, so, you know, 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.000 he had he had done a few quick hits here 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.120 and there. But the ability to spend a lot of 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.480 time with these people and put a lot of resources 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.960 into these stories and not just do a fifteen minute 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:24.560 phoner or you know, a twenty minute radio station interview 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.240 like that. That's the benefit that comes I think with 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.600 being somewhere like the New York Times where we're gonna, 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.200 you know, we're gonna put serious resources, serious time and 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.240 energy into these stories that you know, I think, especially 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.600 as in the culture section, in the music section, are 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:43.120 just as important as anything else the paper covers um 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.000 and we're going to bring that level of of rigor 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.440 to it. I hope, Okay. I found out about Little 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.640 Yati and Quality Control and Coach K from Steve Barnett, 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.719 who ran Capital Records until recently. I was completely out 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:00.599 of a loop. How Little Yadi start to fly on 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.520 your radar? When was it a story? And how did 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.760 you report the story? So Yadi was a Yeah, he's 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.200 a funny one because he's a sort of anomaly even 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.080 within the label. Right. Yadi grew up in the suburbs 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.880 of Atlanta. His dad, Shannon, was a famous hip hop 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:24.320 photographer in the scene, you know, photographed outcast, photographed pastor Troy. Uh, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:25.800 you know, a lot, a lot of these sort of 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.520 early nineties figures. Ja made Duprie. He was in the 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.920 mix um and and was was known among some of 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.040 these people, including Coach K which is a story I 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.880 tell in the in the book and in the piece. Uh. 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.840 Coach k knew Yaddi's father, but didn't know that Yaddi 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:46.440 was his son. So Yadi came up independently on SoundCloud. Right, 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.560 this was really the beginning of of artists bubbling up 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:56.160 on SoundCloud low fi music. Uh, totally self recorded, self released. Um, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.160 you know, he was he was, he was in college. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:03.080 He didn't like it. He he liked dressing colorfully. He liked, 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.760 you know, being in the mix fashion wise. He knew 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.640 some Instagram influencers, but he didn't really consider himself a musician. 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.280 But he started making these these you know, sort of 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.480 silly People were referring to them at the time as 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.680 bubblegum trap. Right. They sounded a bit like nursery rhymes. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.200 There's a lot of auto tune. You know, they're pretty 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.280 the jokes and the lyrics can be a little juvenile. Um. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.200 And he was calling himself the King of the teens, right, 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.040 So this was really bubbling up on SoundCloud, on vine. 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.840 You know. He one of his one of his songs, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.560 uh I believe called one Night soundtrack like an early 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.679 viral video around this time, and and and it was 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.480 still pretty novel, right for artists to take off this way. 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.480 You know, we'd seen it. Uh Soldier Boy was many 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.280 years prior to that. You know, they're they're there are 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.319 a ton of examples in between of dance crazes or 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.720 or viral artists and whatnot. Um. But but then being 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.520 signed to major label and turning into big stars like 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.960 that was pretty new, right. So and and then it's 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.000 funny when a kid like that who's totally of the 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.160 new generation links up with somebody like Coach K, right 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.200 who Coach K has these deep, deep deep roots in 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.800 the Atlanta rap scene, in the Atlanta music industry. He 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.120 managed Pastor Troy, he managed Gucci Man, he managed Young Jeezy. 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:24.640 You know, he's he's as responsible as anyone for the 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.840 sort of explosion of trap music and mixtapes in the 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.560 early to mid two thousand's. Um So, you have a 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.839 guy like that who's sort of keeping his ear to 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.520 the streets and finds out about this weird kid with 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.000 the you know, red braids and the and the beads 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.720 and calling himself the King of the teens. Coach told 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:44.440 me this story when I first met him, that he 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.440 was you know, he he would have he would have 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.240 people over right, he would he would host a dinner 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.520 party where he would invite young people from sort of 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:56.280 all walks of life around Atlanta, DJs, you know, street kids, kids, 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.280 kids doing illegal business in the street, A and R. So, 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.200 you know, he he would just bring together this sort 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.200 of network and they would play each other music. And 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.000 he said, you know, he heard he heard these little 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.200 Yadi songs and he was like his interest was peaked. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:11.480 But then he saw a picture of him right, and 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.040 he had such a unique style, and he was like that, like, 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.560 I need to meet that kid. Um So he started 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.640 he started pursuing him, and it turned out not only 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.520 did he go way back with Yadi's father, but he 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:27.160 also went to school at a small HBCU with his mother. Um. 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.040 And not only that, but he had a message in 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.960 his I think maybe his facebok, his Facebook inbox UM 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.520 from literal Yadi himself, who said, you know I'm going 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:38.880 to blow up. I just need your help. Um. So 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:42.640 it's these sort of like small world coincidences and overlaps 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.040 in networks and stuff that I think make Atlanta such 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.800 an interance of interesting story and that I wanted to 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.000 tease out in the book. And I had just started 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.679 sort of picking them up along the way as I 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.400 was doing these one off newspaper stories, and then I 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.720 realized how interconnected everything was through the years, through the generations, 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:03.440 through the different sounds, there's always somebody who was involved 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.040 in the previous thing, um. And so I wanted to 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:11.679 really tell that story. Okay, when you talk about a 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.320 little Yadi in the book and he ultimately has success 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:19.800 in the traditional record chart, you whip out this amazing 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.840 statistic of double digit millions that he made within a 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.080 year eighteen months now, and you said it was not 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.040 primarily recordings, So could you talk about how much money 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.080 that was and how he made that money for those 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:39.320 who were out of the loop. Yeah, so Yadi, I'd 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:43.640 have to look up the exact, the exact the figure, 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:45.960 you might have it in front of you. Um. But 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.440 one of the things that was amazing about him was 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.720 that Coach right away I think saw him as a 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.240 as a brand. Right. They wanted him to be Will Smith. 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:01.079 They wanted him to be, uh, you know, the fresh 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.320 Prince of bel Air. I think I have it here. 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.800 They said he made thirteen million dollars in sixteen months. Right. 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.880 And even from the first time I met Yaddi, we 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.320 didn't interview at like a little Caribbean restaurant in Brooklyn 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.920 after going shopping. Um. You know, Coach's friend owned it, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.199 and they shut down the place so we could sit quietly. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.560 And you know, he was like a surly teenager. He 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.440 didn't really want to be talking to me at that point, um. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.640 But he knew that he wanted to be famous, right, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.200 He wanted to go viral. He didn't even know he 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.280 wanted to make music. That that part was a sort 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:38.640 of side journey for him. Um. But he also realized 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.440 the importance of being a brand, right he was. He 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.040 was very young at that time. He didn't drink, he 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.240 didn't smoke, he was he was very adamant that. You know, 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.600 he wanted his career to last as long as possible. 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.240 And and this was something Coach instilled in him, right. 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:54.800 I think he had that instinct already as a child 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.679 of the Internet. But then, you know, Coach told him 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.280 brands last longer than songs. He said, you know, I 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.360 tell every artist we signed him, I'm real with them. 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:04.439 He said, you have an expiration date on you as 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.400 an artist. Let's turn you into a brand. Right. And 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.679 so even when Yaddie's debut album on Capitol sort of 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.280 you know, didn't have a huge first week, didn't have 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.480 a smash single, he had a lot of success, as 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.559 you know, as a guest star. He had a lot 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:22.199 of success, uh in in bits and pieces, uh musically, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.720 But what he really got good at was he was 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.720 in a Target commercial. He was in a Sprite commercial. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.880 He you know, partnered with this brand, that brand. You 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.400 can go to the grocery store now and find a 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.480 little Yaddi frozen pizza. You know, he had a he 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.840 had a serial, he had a nail polished line. And 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.320 this was all happening super quickly. He's in a you know, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.840 he's in a made for made for TV movie. Uh, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:50.280 sequel of you know, famous famous hip hop film How High. 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.480 You know, they just immediately saw that what brands wanted 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.600 and what corporations wanted is access to cool, right, and 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.840 what's cooler than rap music? Uh? And Yadi was a 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.679 particularly colorful figure. Um and and they all saw this 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:08.000 vision very clearly, um and and it just took off. 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.240 And still you know, you you probably see more Yadi 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.880 commercials than you hear Yaddi songs. But that was all 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:18.480 by design. Okay. So if we talked about today, you know, 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.920 insiders would think that little Yadi has faded, but there's 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.560 mind share in the public and there's also monetary uh 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.000 considerations as a student of the game, where where's little 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.200 Yadi at? And what is his future as a career? Now? 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.400 You know, Yadi has had such an unpredictable career. He 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.480 did this very amazing thing, which is, you know, when 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.120 people were sick of his music and they, you know, 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:48.720 would make fun of his album for flopping or say 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.400 he couldn't wrap or whatever. You know, oh he's only 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.560 in commercials, he really buckled down and he got really 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:58.040 good at rapping. And not only that, but he sort 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.160 of located what the next big rap scene was going 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.360 to be. Um, he found these guys in Michigan, you know, 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:09.320 in Flint, in Detroit, that we're really doing a style 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.200 that comes a little bit from the Bay Area, a 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:15.280 little bit from the Midwest. Um, you know, rapping really quickly, 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:20.920 really comedically, really sharp, really funny guys. Um wrapping. You know, 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.480 people call it scam wrap. You know, they're they're rapping 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:27.640 off in about about you know, clothes and material games, 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.680 but specifically through you know, fraud and financial crime and 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:36.400 and and you know it's just this this extremely witty 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.280 new sound and subject matter. And he really embedded with 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.720 these guys. He like, you know, he he would spend 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:44.840 a ton of time there. He made he made an 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.440 album called, uh, you know, uh Michigan boat Boy, which 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.600 was you know, which was him sort of using his 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.520 celebrity to put on all of these regional artists from 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.920 a totally different place. Um. And along the way, like 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.520 he got really good at wrapping, and he just kept going, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:04.440 and you know, he put out some mixtapes that sort 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.840 of re establish his credibility. He you know, he found 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.200 other artists and other regional scenes, uh you know, some 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.360 Los Angeles trappers. He fell in with um some New 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.720 York guys. He he just has proven himself to be 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.440 like a real chameleon um and just a really savvy operator. 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:24.640 And I think like people like hanging around him and 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.880 they like, uh seeing him sort of stretch his talents 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:30.200 in new ways. Um. And I think he's had a 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.600 lot more longevity because of that than anybody ever imagined. 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.240 Not to mention, you know, as Discuss made a lot 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.760 of money along the way on the corporate side of things. 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.680 So I think because he was making money from brand deals, 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.840 he could sort of do whatever he wanted musically. Um. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.720 And I think that's benefited him in the long run. Okay, 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.800 you said you're from the South. Where are you from? So? 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.600 I grew up all around Florida. Um. I went to 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.560 high school in Orlando, Florida, but I lived all over 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.840 the state. My family moved around a lot. And when 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.240 I moved to New York at eighteen, my family moved 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.719 to Atlanta, Georgia. So my sister went to high school there. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.800 I spent a lot of time there as my as 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.359 as as my little sister was going through school and 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.960 as I was as I was doing college. Um, so 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.960 I was back and forth between the North and the 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.560 South for the last fifteen years. But the my sort 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.600 of you know, my core adolescence was in central Florida. Okay, 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:31.000 So you and the publisher have this idea, how do 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.680 you then approach the players and what do you say? 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.360 And do they embrace you or do they are they 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.040 you know, weary at first? You know, I think I 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.640 had proven myself, um at the New York Times and 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.160 in the stories that I was doing along the way. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.360 I think, you know, when when people see themselves reflected 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:53.040 accurately in a platform like The New York Times, especially 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.360 in genres that you don't think of as traditionally at 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.919 home in a prestige media place, you know, I was, 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.119 I was taking real care to say, this is the 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.399 most important music in the world. You know, I am 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.720 a relatively young person for this building at this time 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.320 and in this beat. Um, and I want to accurately 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.600 cover you know, what's going on among the youth, which 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.359 tend to drive you know, music and culture trends for 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.400 all of time. UM. So I think, you know, there 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.639 comes some credibility with that. Um And Yeah, I had 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:27.720 done I had done the work, and I had you know, 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.560 built the built the source relationships with a lot of 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.560 these people. Um. You know Little Baby, who's another big 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.439 character in the book. Uh, you know, I've I've followed 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.359 him on this, on this journey, and I knew that 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:42.760 I wanted him to be a character in the book because, 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.560 as I said, I sort of found him at the 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.440 right moment, right I did one of his first big 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.719 major interviews as part of this larger quality control feature 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.960 I did. Uh you know, he was the sort of 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:56.919 artistic centerpiece of that, in addition to the executives who 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.120 were guiding his career, Coach K and P from Quality Control. UM. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.800 And I think people remember, right when you're there at 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.960 the beginning. UM. So every time I would see him 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.520 along the way, you know, I would say, I want 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:12.280 to keep doing this, I want to keep seeing where 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.480 you're going. And I remember pretty distinctly, you know, when 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:19.760 when the book was was being floated, and you know, 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.280 I had an offer to write it. I went and 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.480 I met Coach K and P and Little Baby at 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.360 the Spotify office where they were playing whatever his new 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.840 project was. Maybe. You know, he was putting on music 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:32.600 so quick at that point that I don't even remember 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:34.199 which one it was, but I think it was the 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:37.000 mixtape after the one I wrote about UH, and he 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:38.960 was there playing it for them, you know, trying to 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.560 get promo and and I sat in with them on 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.880 their meeting. And then you know, after I sat down 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.160 UH with Coach and I said, you know, I want 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:48.760 to I want to make this book. I want you 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:50.399 guys to be a big part of it. There's no 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:52.199 way to do this book if it's going to be 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.639 based on the present day without you. You know, not 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.840 only are you guys the ones breaking all the artists, 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.000 but but you're the you know, you open the doors 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.360 in this town, right, They're the they're the they're the biggest, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.760 the biggest names in town at that moment and beyond 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:08.879 UM and you know, you just said let's do it. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:13.160 So along then I followed, you know, various artists both 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.520 connected to them and not along the way. Not everything 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.520 in the book is about quality control. There's a ton 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:23.080 of tangential characters. Um. But like I said, because there 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:24.720 it is such a small town, because it is a 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.800 music scene, right, I think that that gets overlooked a 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.440 lot um when you're thinking about this this rap music 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.440 that goes internationally. But it's a music scene, just like 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.439 Seattle grunge was in the nineties, or just like you 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.320 know Athens indie rock was, or you know Laurel Canyon 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.959 or any any music scene like these are overlapping groups 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:49.320 of friends, collaborators, enemies, family, you know, and all of 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.360 the same creative stuff is coming out of there. So 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.239 one person would lead to the next, even if it 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.680 wasn't within the same label or within the same exact 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:03.760 music orbit. So the book really has two sides. It's 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.199 got the music side and it's got the raw cultural side. 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:12.480 So many people would say, because you depict a scene 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:16.320 where almost everybody involved has been to jail, there's a 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:19.080 lot of crime, what was it like being a middle 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.280 class white ball boy in these situations? And did they 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:27.240 accept you? Uh? I think they did accept me. Um. 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:30.600 I mean, you know, I think the proof is in 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.639 the reporting. I think, you know, I got myself into 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:39.919 rooms by being trustworthy and being open and straightforward with 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:44.600 people about what I was doing. I said very clearly, 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:49.880 you know, this is culture, right, this is what's moving markets, 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.879 what's what's moving records, this is this is what people want, right. 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.199 What you guys are doing is important. Um, and I 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.280 want to preserve that for history, right. I want to 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:03.920 show people where this music comes from, and the reality 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.440 in the music, in the videos and behind the scenes 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:11.240 is that a lot of this music comes from poverty, right, 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:16.600 It comes from necessity, It comes from bad neighborhoods. And 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:19.480 you know, there's a character by the name of Marlowe 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.600 in the book, and you know he he came up 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:24.960 with a little baby. He did not make it to 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.959 the same heights that little baby did, but he was 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:32.240 open about where he came from and how he'd grown up. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.680 And to me, that was as important as the music side, 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.600 because he was the real deal, you know. He he 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.480 was rapping about things you hear on the radio, even 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:46.040 though they may be maybe extreme, but he was also 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:51.120 living it right. And and by being there every step 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:53.960 of the way for his career, I think he saw 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:58.800 that I really wanted to see his life and where 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.400 he came from and how he lived on a daily basis, 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:03.199 and and he was keen to show it to me. 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:05.480 You know, we would every time I would go to Atlanta, 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:07.520 I would try to get in touch with him. He 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:09.560 would pick me up and we would just right around 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:11.679 all day. Right. He would just take me to to 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:15.199 whatever he was doing, right, whether that was you know, 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:17.399 getting a haircut at the barbershop or going to a 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:20.760 block party or going to the recording studio. Um. And 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:24.160 you know, we just we we built a rapport um 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:27.840 and and we built a relationship of trust. And I 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:29.760 think he got it, you know what I mean, he 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:34.440 knew that it was worth it for people to pull 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:38.960 back the curtain and sort of see a layer of 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:41.840 things that you don't always see. Right, even even in 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:44.920 rap music, if it comes from struggle, and it comes 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:49.000 from poverty, then it very quickly becomes about you know, 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.240 the the material gains or you know, the success or 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.199 what I made it out from. UM. But you know, 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:57.320 I think whether talking about Marlow or you're talking about 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:59.639 Pe or you're talking about Little Riek, another artist in 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:01.000 the book, that I spent a lot of time with 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:03.880 her in his neighborhood. Uh. You know, they were they 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:08.919 were I think excited that somebody was engaged. Uh. And 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.359 I wanted to learn right. I wanted to like be 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:15.399 able to use whatever platform I had to shine a 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.720 light on the reality of the situation in a city 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:31.600 like Okay. You depict dangerous neighborhoods. Did you ever experience 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:36.719 danger personally? I don't. I don't think so. Um. You know, 0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:40.520 I it was very clear that I was there as 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:43.320 a music reporter, right I was. I was hanging around 0:24:43.400 --> 0:24:48.879 with musicians. Uh they are used to you know, this 0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:50.800 is where they grew up. It's it's not dangerous to 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.840 them on a on a day to day basis. Uh. 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:56.639 You know, sometimes I would be in cars going really fast. 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:01.040 Uh you know, like young kids in fast cars like 0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:03.800 to test the engine. Um. You know. Sometimes I was 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:08.080 like gripping, you know, my my arm rest a little hard. Um. 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:12.879 But you know, I think it's it was it was fun, 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:17.080 you know, it was it was mostly uh lighthearted. Like 0:25:17.280 --> 0:25:20.760 even if if these are neighborhoods where you know there 0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:24.000 there there can be higher rates of crime or whatever. 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.399 Like people are just living their lives, right, they wake up, 0:25:26.440 --> 0:25:29.440 they go to work, they hang out with their friends. 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:35.919 On some level, that's true, but you depict mostly single 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:41.040 parent households. You depict a lot of these people end 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:44.280 up raising themselves. A lot of people are involved in 0:25:44.359 --> 0:25:48.080 street crime, a lot of people involved in drugs, and 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:55.520 those illegal things usually come with violence, death, etcetera. So 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.760 let's talk about little baby, and you talk about someone 0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:04.440 ultimately segues out of the family unit and finds their 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:10.159 own way, mostly in illegal ways to get ahead. And 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:12.240 then you also depicted in the book a lot of 0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:14.320 people are doing so well on the street, they don't 0:26:14.359 --> 0:26:18.080 want to focus on music. So what is really going 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:21.720 on in the street, in the neighborhoods that these people 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:25.120 you talk to live in. I mean, that's the reality 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:29.080 of the situation, right, Like these are places that of 0:26:29.119 --> 0:26:34.280 America and state government, city government has forgotten. Right. These 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:38.760 are places with school systems that are decimated, with police 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:43.840 forces that are you know, antagonistic or or decimated. Uh 0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:47.800 you know. There there's their food deserts. You know, there's 0:26:48.640 --> 0:26:55.000 very limited economic opportunity, uh you know, and and and 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:58.720 everybody is doing their best right to to to get by. 0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:03.240 And and the thing about my my subjects and the 0:27:03.240 --> 0:27:06.080 people I spoke to, you know, they were honest, right, 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.640 they were They were saying, I'm trying to better my life, 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:12.120 trying to better my family's life. I'm not always doing 0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:15.720 the right thing. Uh you know. They someone like Marlow, 0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:18.840 like you know, he he was very clear about when 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.280 he was doing wrong. Um, but you know I didn't. 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:26.000 I didn't. I wasn't embedded with them on a twenty 0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:27.879 four hour a day basis. Right. A lot of this 0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:31.760 stuff was described to me. You know, there are a 0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:34.520 ton of footnotes in the book. You know, there are 0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:38.439 documentaries about this stuff, other articles, books, whatever, you know. 0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:44.159 I'm I'm cobbling together a sort of portrait of these things. Uh. 0:27:44.320 --> 0:27:46.840 But look, this is this is the reality of of 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:50.160 of life in America. Right. This is the guns, their 0:27:50.200 --> 0:27:52.520 guns everywhere, right, there are guns and white neighborhoods. There 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:56.080 are guns and black neighborhoods. Uh. Drug dealing, you know 0:27:56.200 --> 0:27:59.239 what what the drug the money that comes out of 0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:02.520 the illegal drug market, like comes from somewhere, you know, somebody, 0:28:02.640 --> 0:28:07.520 somebody's benefiting. Uh. This is just this is just everyday life. 0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:09.800 And I think that's part of the reason this music 0:28:09.880 --> 0:28:12.760 is so popular. Right. Uh. At one point, you know 0:28:13.000 --> 0:28:16.080 p P one of the quality control executives who also 0:28:16.119 --> 0:28:19.000 comes from from this world. You know, he said to me, 0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:21.199 there's more people in the street than anything. Right. The 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:23.520 reason so many people want to listen to this music 0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:27.520 is because most people are struggling. Right, And and even 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:32.560 if it's a overblown version of this and artistic version, right, uh, 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:37.440 composite of all the good and the bad that come 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:40.280 out come from places like this. Like it's it's true, 0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:42.760 and it rings true to people, and it rings true 0:28:42.760 --> 0:28:45.920 to their struggles, and it rings true about their their 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:50.160 aspirations and their ambitions. Um. And you know, I think 0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:52.920 I think I don't. I don't think the book is 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:57.800 heavy handed in terms of you know, whether this is uh, 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:01.560 whether this works every time? Right, their rap is salvation, 0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:05.200 whether you know you can everybody's gonna become famous on 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:08.720 on some talent. Uh. You know, I think I think 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:11.600 it tries to paint an honest portrait of that. Right. 0:29:11.840 --> 0:29:14.400 Some people make it, some people don't. Like you said, 0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:18.720 there's there are people who make more money illicitly than 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:22.040 they do legally. Uh and and that's a hurdle, right. 0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.000 And there are characters in the book again who are 0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:26.720 open about that, um, just like there are people in 0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:28.840 the real world who are open about that. Um. So 0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:31.080 you know, I I just wanted to I just want 0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:34.040 to pay an accurate portrait of the people I met 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:36.720 in the way they described their lives. Okay. I think 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:40.479 it's little peace Mother, a little baby's mother who grows 0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:45.600 up in a very strict household, enters the military, ends 0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:51.360 up having a child, seems pretty intelligent, ends up working manually, 0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:56.520 extremely intelligent, extremely intelligent, and yet still yeah, making minimum wage, 0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:59.400 you know, cleaning the courthouse, working at the post office. 0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:03.960 You know. She she's a single mother. Uh, as you said, 0:30:03.960 --> 0:30:10.360 a veteran, uh you know, a marine veteran, extremely bright woman, 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:15.520 well traveled, spent time in Japan, you know, just an 0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:19.200 inspirational figure all around, and like you said, yeah, still, 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:23.080 you know, raising three children by herself on a minimum 0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:26.400 wage salary. Like that's that's America for you, Okay. And 0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:28.320 then there's another line from one of the people in 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:31.720 the book. They're talking about education, and the person says, 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:34.080 I can point all these people in the hood who 0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:37.000 have a college education and work in minimum wage jobs. 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:43.400 Why is this the case? Man? That's that's that's above 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:45.600 my pay grade. I We'll have to ask my my 0:30:45.720 --> 0:30:49.400 economics colleagues about that. But yeah, you're referring, you're referring 0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:52.320 to offset who uh you know, was was part of 0:30:52.320 --> 0:30:55.040 the megas that the rap trio, one of the you know, 0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:58.960 the first major act for quality control, one of the biggest, 0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:01.880 one of the biggest rap so the last decade. Um. 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:03.360 And yeah, he said that to me, you know, in 0:31:03.400 --> 0:31:06.760 the basement of his mansion and the Atlanta suburbs. You know, 0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:09.480 he was like, he had his first child when he 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:12.760 was a teenager. He was very open. He took to 0:31:12.920 --> 0:31:15.640 crime to try to provide for his child. And he said, 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:17.320 you know, I could have I could have been on 0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:19.200 the straight and narrow, But who's to say that that 0:31:19.240 --> 0:31:21.280 would have worked for me? Right? And look, this is 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:25.600 this is racism. This is uh, you know, a lack 0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:28.560 of economic opportunity. You know, you can trace this back 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:32.840 through through redlining and you know, mortgages and you know, 0:31:33.000 --> 0:31:36.120 hiring practices of of people of color. Like again, this 0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:38.800 is this is a bit beyond my purview. Um, but 0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:42.479 I think the idea that you know, not everybody is 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:45.600 starting from the from the same place, and not everybody 0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:49.240 has the same opportunities, um, based on where they grew up, 0:31:49.280 --> 0:31:52.160 where they went to school, what color their skin is. Like. 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:56.960 You know, I think reasonable people can disagree, but you know, 0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:59.240 I think that that that this is not exactly a 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:03.880 controversial I yeah, right, Uh, income inequality in America, Uh, 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:06.800 you know, last time I checked, is uh it's out 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:11.240 of control? Okay, just drilling down one more time. Is 0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:14.840 it the people you talked to that to pick a 0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:22.600 dangerous lifestyle with drugs, shootings, gangs, etcetera. Or is everybody 0:32:22.640 --> 0:32:26.040 affected in these neighborhoods, you know, a certain neighborhoods you 0:32:26.080 --> 0:32:28.200 have to not in Atlanta maybe, but you have to 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:29.880 choose side. You have to be in a gang to 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:33.680 be protected. Are there people just living normal lives I'm 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:36.840 talking about? Of course? Of course, of course this is 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:42.000 not monolithic, right, This is this is a small subset 0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:46.520 of people who felt like they had no choice right 0:32:47.000 --> 0:32:50.600 and got involved in some sort of a dangerous lifestyle. 0:32:50.800 --> 0:32:54.680 You know. Uh, Marlowe grew up in Bowing Holmes. Right, 0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:58.680 this is a this was an infamous project in Atlanta 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:01.600 that was that was since has since been knocked down. 0:33:02.480 --> 0:33:05.160 You know, his father grew up in a project in 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:09.880 in Philadelphia. There's you know, quotes from him in this book. Uh. 0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:15.560 He was, you know, living between households, father in and 0:33:15.600 --> 0:33:19.880 out of jail. You know, Uh, mother having her own issues, 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:23.800 living with family members, living with friends. Uh, in a 0:33:23.880 --> 0:33:26.920 dangerous place. Right, And this was the example he saw. 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:30.160 You know, there's there's some there's a scene in the book. Uh. 0:33:30.480 --> 0:33:32.480 You can find this on YouTube. Actually a little Baby 0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:39.880 did a panel right about uh, reintegrating from incarceration right 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:43.840 with alongside other businessmen, you know, guys who got out 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:47.200 of jail and became truck drivers, open their own business, 0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:49.560 that sort of thing. And he says, you know, if 0:33:49.600 --> 0:33:52.760 if if you're around drug dealers, odds are you're going 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:54.520 to think that that's what you do? You become a 0:33:54.560 --> 0:33:56.800 drug dealer. He didn't know any doctors, he didn't know 0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:59.320 any lawyers. You know, he didn't he didn't see that 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:03.280 example or stand. Um, are there people who grow up 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:08.320 in these neighborhoods and become you know, uh, doctors, lawyers, 0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:13.240 philosophers of course, engineers of course. Uh you know, but 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:16.920 but it's not easy. Um. And so much of this 0:34:17.000 --> 0:34:19.440 rap music, I think that's the point, right, Like the 0:34:19.520 --> 0:34:21.880 rap music that is coming out of Atlanta on the 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:25.480 largest scale, is is about these things, right, It's about 0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:30.120 this struggle. Uh. And so it is created by people 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.359 who have seen it up close, right, or people who 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:35.439 have been through it themselves. Um. And so of course 0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:38.120 it's a it's a self selecting group. But what I 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:41.760 wanted to tease out was why this music. Right, trap 0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:44.120 for lack of a better term, is the sort of 0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:48.879 umbrella genre of it within within hip hop. Just those 0:34:48.880 --> 0:34:53.080 who don't know defined trap please, So trap comes out 0:34:53.120 --> 0:34:56.240 of what are referred to as trap houses. Right. Trap 0:34:56.280 --> 0:34:59.920 houses are places for you know, the making and the 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:06.400 selling of drugs, usually abandoned houses. Uh in in four neighborhoods. Um, 0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:08.520 this you know came from Gucci man, this came from 0:35:08.560 --> 0:35:11.239 Young Jesus, came from t I. These are people who 0:35:11.280 --> 0:35:15.280 became you know, mega stars in the early two thousand's. Uh. 0:35:15.320 --> 0:35:18.600 You know there's early mentions of of trapped in uh 0:35:18.680 --> 0:35:23.160 Dungeon family songs, you know, Outcast, that sort of thing. Um. 0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:26.000 And you know Big Boy of Outcast says like that. 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:28.040 You know that's why they call it the trap because 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:32.800 you're trapped, right uh. And and this music is about 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:38.080 that lifestyle, right that that that world, and it's dramatized 0:35:38.160 --> 0:35:41.280 of course, it's art, of course, um, but it's also 0:35:41.560 --> 0:35:46.439 in places, and especially with certain artists, autobiographical. Um. So 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:51.080 this is this is like an extremely niche, extremely local 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:56.000 culture that became popular culture. Right. This became the biggest 0:35:56.080 --> 0:36:01.000 music in the world over the last ten fift twenty years. Uh. 0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:03.920 And it comes from a small group of people. And 0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:08.680 that's that's what the book is, okay. But almost to 0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:12.280 a person, not a little yahni, but almost to a person. 0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:15.240 All of the people in the book have been to jail. 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:19.840 So not not not quite true. I would I wouldn't 0:36:19.840 --> 0:36:21.440 say that true. I mean, I mean the you know, 0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:26.400 the book is about lawyers. The book is about people's friends, 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:30.400 The book is about people's mothers. Um. You know little 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:34.239 Rieck Marlowe who you know it was a self proclaimed 0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:38.040 you know, drug dealer and career criminal. He never went 0:36:38.080 --> 0:36:40.399 to jail. He didn't have a felony on his record 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:44.480 at all. Um. But you know, I think I don't 0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:47.759 have to tell tell you the rates of incarceration of 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:54.560 black men in this country are completely disproportional to the population. Um. 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:58.040 So again that's a The prison industrial complex is the 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:02.080 subject of many other better, uh, more in depth books 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:05.279 than mine, which focuses more on the music. Um. But 0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:07.120 I would, but I wouldn't say that that everyone here 0:37:07.120 --> 0:37:10.040 has been to jail. Well, let me put it a 0:37:10.080 --> 0:37:15.719 different way. Many people, especially those not interested in hip 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:23.400 hop believe that these judge these rappers in a negative way. 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:25.800 Where to use the same word we just talked about 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:29.880 when you read one your book, they literally seem trapped, 0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:34.040 and that you also talk about the cops in one 0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:38.640 town out to get the rappers were being up one 0:37:38.719 --> 0:37:43.040 being a parole going back. So you end up with 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:47.160 a sympathetic portrait. You have these people who are reasonable 0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:49.880 sort of caught in their lifestyle as opposed to just 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:53.960 who are just gangsters from minute one, Yeah, look, these 0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:57.160 are not these are these are not you know, as 0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:01.040 as far as I can tell by on sociopaths, these 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:05.960 are people who grew up in tough circumstances with very 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:09.120 few opportunities, who then found their way out and then 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:11.040 you have a target on your back in a totally 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:14.120 different way. Right, And that's like, you know, Drew Finling 0:38:14.640 --> 0:38:16.560 is a character in this book. He's a he's a 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:20.080 defense attorney in Atlanta, currently in the news, uh, you know, 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:23.480 helping to defend Donald Trump in the in the Georgia 0:38:23.520 --> 0:38:27.000 election probe, which is a whole other story. Um, but 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:29.480 but Drew, Drew has become very close with a lot 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:32.960 of these guys, right. He found himself becoming a lawyer 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:39.000 for Hip Hop Royalty basically through early representation of various figures, 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:44.520 including including Gucci Man. And you know, he he said 0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:46.440 this to me over and over again. He said, like, 0:38:46.480 --> 0:38:48.680 I can't believe the target that's on the backs of 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:51.759 these guys, right, Like, these are guys who who made 0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:54.040 their way out of what would have been a dangerous 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:59.320 criminal lifestyle, and yet they're still being harassed by police 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:03.760 for opposite right, for having fancy cars or or jewelry 0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:06.359 or you know, smoking weed, which if you've walked down 0:39:06.360 --> 0:39:08.520 the street in New York City or where you are 0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:11.360 in l A, you know everyone's smoking weed. Uh. And 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:14.520 yet you know this is often often the pretense to 0:39:14.520 --> 0:39:17.560 to to lock people up. Um. So yeah, I think 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:24.800 you know, the the the weight of American oppression and 0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:28.120 in all in all senses um sort of bears down 0:39:28.160 --> 0:39:30.759 on these guys. And and that's why they're you know, 0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:34.759 they're they're resilient. Uh. And I think that's why the 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:39.280 art is often so so vibrant and so visceral and 0:39:39.480 --> 0:39:41.560 people can't get enough of it, right, Like that's that's 0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:45.000 the other thing. Like I was talking before about peace, 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:47.160 saying people want to listen to this music because it 0:39:47.200 --> 0:39:50.040 reflects their reality. But it's not only them, right, Like, 0:39:50.920 --> 0:39:53.200 rich white kids in college also want to listen to 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:57.080 this music because it's cool, because it's dangerous, because sexy. Right. 0:39:57.120 --> 0:40:00.359 The same thing that that uh, you know, popular music, 0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:03.680 and especially black popular music has always been um and 0:40:03.760 --> 0:40:07.160 so so there's the voyeuristic component of it just as 0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:11.440 much as uh, there's the sort of autobiographical uh you 0:40:11.480 --> 0:40:14.600 know component of people seeing themselves in the music. There's 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:16.759 there's people who just want a glimpse, right, people who 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:19.719 want to try on blackness or or or get a 0:40:19.760 --> 0:40:22.080 taste of it or what they assume to be, you know, 0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:25.600 a certain certain type of blackness. Um. So you know 0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:33.600 that that cross generational, transracial, you know appeal the hip 0:40:33.640 --> 0:40:36.520 hop has has been shown to have over the last 0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:40.520 almost fifty years now is like it's it's fascinating, right, 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:43.719 and there should be countless books about about this. It's 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:47.480 not only it's not only Atlanta, it's not only trapped music, um. 0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:49.359 But but this is you know, this is the story 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:52.120 of popular music going back to you know, I don't 0:40:52.120 --> 0:40:55.279 know if you saw the Basil Erman's Elvis movie, Um, 0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:57.879 but but it's it's it's the same thing I see 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:01.600 shaking your head, you know, which this is off point, 0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:06.080 But Basil Rman Elvis movie, like his other movies, figure 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:11.240 has got to be more Basi Lerman than I'm I'm 0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:14.319 I'm I'm mostly joking. But but you know what I mean, right, 0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:20.240 But um, the other thing that is fascinating in the book, 0:41:21.280 --> 0:41:25.040 you know, people know a lot about the inner workings 0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:27.480 of the music world at this point in time, and 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:31.360 you hear these people at age five, they start making music, 0:41:31.560 --> 0:41:36.799 their parents are spreading the demos. In this particular case, 0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:40.279 you have a couple of examples where from reading the 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.880 book it sounds like they were drug dealers, and quality 0:41:43.920 --> 0:41:47.400 Control seems to say, well, you have such experiences, you'd 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:50.360 make a good rapper. Is that how it went down? 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:54.600 That's the story of a couple of these guys. I mean, 0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:58.480 you know, if you think back to to to young Jeezy, 0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:01.960 who you know in early discovery of of Coach K, 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:05.279 he was a hustler, as as he described it, and 0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:09.440 he was trying to fund other rappers and Coach met 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:11.680 him in a recording studio and said, no, no, you're 0:42:11.760 --> 0:42:14.279 the rapper Like you have the star power, you have 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:17.160 the voice, you have the clothes, you have the cars, 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:21.280 like you're you're the guy. Uh. And then he recreated 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:23.600 that right with little Baby. Little Baby was known as 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:27.120 a gambler. Right, Little Baby was selling weed and gambling. 0:42:27.160 --> 0:42:29.480 He would come by the studio, hang out with me, 0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:32.760 goes take their money after they came back from from touring, 0:42:32.880 --> 0:42:34.520 right with a little bit of cash in their pocket. 0:42:34.920 --> 0:42:37.040 And and he he would shoot dice with them, right 0:42:37.960 --> 0:42:41.399 and and he had such star power right like this 0:42:41.480 --> 0:42:44.520 is this is a timeless story, right to go back 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:48.000 to to to Elvis or one one story I tell 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:52.760 in the book, Uh was Jermaine Duprie discovering Criss Cross. 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:55.640 These were not drug dealers, these were kids in the mall. 0:42:56.320 --> 0:42:59.840 And Jermaine dupre said, they have it right, star power 0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:03.440 like whatever. That ineffable quality is star power, And in 0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:07.560 raps specifically, it often comes with authenticity or the appearance 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:11.080 of authenticity. Right. So when Coach k would see someone 0:43:11.120 --> 0:43:14.080 like little Baby, he would say, you know, other people 0:43:14.080 --> 0:43:17.279 are out here wrapping your story. You should do it right. 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:20.600 You have a look, you have some money in your pocket, 0:43:21.080 --> 0:43:24.360 you have you know, the carriage like the swag for 0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:26.799 lack of a better term, like you know, just just 0:43:26.880 --> 0:43:28.920 give it a shot, right, and Baby would say no, 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:30.919 like that's not for me, that's not for me. Baby. 0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:32.760 You know, he told me straight up, and his friends 0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:35.319 told me to Like we didn't we didn't look up 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:37.520 to rappers. We thought they were corny and we thought 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:39.720 they were faking. You know, we didn't know. We didn't 0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:43.440 know rappers like we knew whatever other hustlers were on 0:43:43.440 --> 0:43:47.520 our block. Uh, people were more immediate to us. Um 0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:49.560 and and for Baby, you know, it took it took 0:43:49.640 --> 0:43:52.560 going to prison for for him to say, you know, 0:43:52.600 --> 0:43:54.879 I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try this, Like there 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:57.600 there's a safer way, there's a there's a better way. 0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:01.200 Um and ah do people try it and they're not 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:03.400 only good at it, right, But this is someone like 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:06.319 him put in the work, had enough of the sort 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:10.279 of natural skill, the natural charisma, stories to tell, and 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:12.600 then put in the work to get good enough that 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:15.839 people wanted to hear his music. Uh. And you know 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:18.799 this is again this is like a fraction of a 0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:21.879 percentage of people who can pull this off. But it's 0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:25.160 not no one and and every day, the barrier false right, 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:28.000 like the bar of of what it takes to be 0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:30.359 able to put out music. Right. I think, you know, 0:44:30.480 --> 0:44:34.200 maybe we'll get to this. But the distribution channels that 0:44:34.320 --> 0:44:36.880 it used to It used to be expensive to record, right, 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:39.320 It used to be expensive to print a c d 0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:43.040 uh and have it put in best buys around the country. 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:46.880 Right now, record on your laptop, put it on YouTube 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:48.680 for free, and all of a sudden you have a 0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:51.200 million dollar deal. You know, we see the story over 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:54.439 and over again in rap and and outside of wrap. Um. 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:58.680 But I think as these technological hurdles have fallen, uh, 0:44:58.719 --> 0:45:00.960 you know, there's there's more and more or opportunity for 0:45:01.040 --> 0:45:04.760 somebody with a you know, a local following, a story 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:07.800 to tell and and a little bit of drive and 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:17.880 star power to be able to make it. There are 0:45:17.920 --> 0:45:22.000 frequently depictions in the book of large amounts of cash. 0:45:22.760 --> 0:45:25.600 One person, I think it's a little baby, it's gonna 0:45:25.600 --> 0:45:28.600 shoot his first video in the studio shows up with 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:33.640 thirty thousand dollars cash, so I think it might have 0:45:33.800 --> 0:45:36.759 even been three hundred. Whatever it was, it was a 0:45:36.840 --> 0:45:39.960 staggering stump thing. Then also there's another one where the 0:45:39.960 --> 0:45:42.839 money goes out the window, never recovered. How much is that? 0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:45.960 I think that was? That was sorry. Someone told me 0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:48.640 about Shardie Low who rest in piece of Shardi Low. 0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:51.960 He was He was a rapper from the mid two 0:45:51.960 --> 0:45:56.600 thousands again you know, big reputation as as a drug 0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:58.920 dealer and a hustler. And one of his one of 0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:00.920 his right hand men, told me a story, yeah about 0:46:00.960 --> 0:46:02.880 being on a car, you know, being in a police 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:06.480 chase and CHARTI love throwing you know, fifty grand out 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:09.120 of the window to just not be caught with the 0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:13.239 proceeds from whatever it is they were doing. So, I mean, 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:17.600 first and foremost, to shoot a video in the studio, 0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:22.359 it's almost hard to spend three hundred thousand dollars, and 0:46:22.400 --> 0:46:24.399 so I should I should cut in here and say 0:46:24.440 --> 0:46:26.680 this was not a music video. This was just a 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:30.600 video for Instagram of showing people that he was rapping, 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.480 right saying, this guy who you might follow or no, 0:46:33.600 --> 0:46:35.839 from the neighborhood, like we're going to start rapping. It's 0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:38.600 just an in studio video. It wasn't. It wasn't a 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:43.040 music video. It was just you know, here I am 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:45.360 pressing pressing record on my phone to show you what 0:46:45.480 --> 0:46:48.000 my friend is up to. Okay, then what's the three 0:46:48.080 --> 0:46:51.040 hundred k about? He just had that in his pocket? Yeah, 0:46:51.080 --> 0:46:53.719 it's too it's to show off with. It's a you know, 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:58.279 it's a trophy. You're saying he just wanted to show it. 0:46:58.560 --> 0:47:01.520 Did he show the three hundred k on screen? Yeah? 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:07.120 Oh yeah, yes, But did he really have the three k? 0:47:07.280 --> 0:47:14.200 And you know, etcetera. Look who who this cash belongs 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:19.200 to at any given moment? Uh, it's impossible to say. Um, 0:47:19.239 --> 0:47:22.680 I think you know, part of this fast money lifestyle 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:25.240 that that's depicted in the book, and that these guys 0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:28.600 you know, live and rap about. You know, there's a 0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:30.480 quote in the book, you know that's how Atlanta goes. 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:32.600 You're up, you're down, you're up, you're down, you're up, 0:47:32.680 --> 0:47:37.160 you're down. Uh. And and that's a you know, that's 0:47:37.200 --> 0:47:41.040 that's an endemic I think to to being in the 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:45.239 street in this way. Um. And look it's a problem, right, 0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:49.560 it's a problem. It's the same as a car, a necklace. Um. 0:47:49.680 --> 0:47:53.120 You know, there's an Instagram trend these days of rappers, uh, 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:55.880 you know, bringing trying to bring a million dollars to 0:47:55.920 --> 0:47:58.359 the hood, right, to bring a million dollars to where 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:02.200 they grew up with as a way to say, you know, 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:04.680 this world told me I wasn't never going to be anything. 0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:06.960 And and look at me now, And not only look 0:48:07.000 --> 0:48:09.960 at me now in Beverly Hills or you know, in 0:48:10.040 --> 0:48:12.600 a midtown skyscraper, but look at me now where I 0:48:12.640 --> 0:48:16.000 came from, right where where the police were throwing me 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:18.319 against the wall, and you know, telling me I'd never 0:48:18.320 --> 0:48:21.040 be anything. And my teachers, you know, didn't care about me, 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:23.360 and you know, told me I'd grew up to be 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:25.799 in jail. And and and it's a you know, it's 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:28.800 a it's a it's a it's a talisman, it's a trophy, 0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:33.520 it's a it's a statement to say, you know, look 0:48:33.560 --> 0:48:39.959 what I became. Okay, stories are legion of all musicians 0:48:40.000 --> 0:48:43.200 people the music world being ripped off. It's even worse 0:48:43.320 --> 0:48:48.680 for black people. You depict the successful people having a 0:48:48.800 --> 0:48:52.680 great amount of money, Is it more transparent, more equal 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:55.160 in it land in the world that you investigated, or 0:48:55.160 --> 0:48:57.319 in reality a lot of money as much money as 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:01.000 they have, a lot of it's going somewhere else. Look, 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:04.399 what is a record label if not somebody reaching into 0:49:04.480 --> 0:49:08.160 your pocket to have a piece of of what you're 0:49:08.360 --> 0:49:12.680 what your talent rot you know, I think the music 0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:18.279 business is unfair, right, like these contracts. Look, maybe it's 0:49:18.280 --> 0:49:21.240 not unfair. Maybe the labels put in the research and development, 0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:24.239 maybe they do the marketing and they take on all 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:28.880 the risk, like, uh, whatever it is. But traditionally we 0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:31.319 have seen, you know, the people who have been brave 0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:34.480 enough to talk about what their contracts are, like, what 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:38.279 their royalty rates are, what their advances. You know, I 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:41.240 talk about for people who don't know. I think anybody 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:44.399 listening to your podcast knows this. But but advances are 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:49.319 are not free money, right, They're they're they're recupable, right. 0:49:49.360 --> 0:49:51.520 You know, you don't see another dollar until you earn 0:49:51.600 --> 0:49:55.640 back that money that they advanced to you. It's credit. Um. 0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:57.960 So look, I think that that's happening in this world 0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:01.960 as much, if not more than it's happening everywhere else. 0:50:02.400 --> 0:50:06.920 These not only not only are these artists young, but 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:11.480 they're really you know, these are they're rappers being signed 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:14.759 for millions of dollars that are fifteen years old. You know. 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:18.319 There's a chapter about about A and R people in 0:50:18.360 --> 0:50:23.279 Atlanta in the book where you know, uh Ray Daniels. 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:26.120 This this This executive in Atlanta says, I just got 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:28.879 back from you know, giving giving a fifteen year old 0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:32.759 a million dollars Like that's and he's like, that's crazy, right, 0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:36.920 like on its face, like that's a it's a crazy proposition. Um. 0:50:37.120 --> 0:50:40.040 But but that artists are earned back that money, right, 0:50:40.080 --> 0:50:43.880 And there's managers to pay, there's lawyers to pay, there's 0:50:44.280 --> 0:50:47.000 early investors, right. I talk about the sort of the 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:50.960 culture of you know, uh, street guys putting money behind 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:55.960 an emerging artist, whether it's to record a video or 0:50:56.040 --> 0:50:58.160 get the money or excuse me, to get the song 0:50:58.200 --> 0:51:00.520 played at the strip club or whatever it is. You know, 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:04.960 everybody wants their piece. Um. And and that's the same 0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:09.160 I think across genres. Um. This just happens to be 0:51:09.520 --> 0:51:12.359 the most lucrative and the most popular genre right now, 0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:15.279 so the amounts are higher. Um. You know, we saw 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:20.279 this sort of gold rush of of deals around the 0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:24.080 streaming era as the record companies you know, rebounded after 0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:29.600 the dark times of of the post napster years. Um. 0:51:29.680 --> 0:51:33.880 So you know, this is not primarily a book about 0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:37.400 recording contracts, So I didn't get two into the nitty 0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:40.120 gritty there um, and I think a lot of these 0:51:40.120 --> 0:51:42.560 guys are doing well, but just as many of them are, 0:51:42.640 --> 0:51:46.120 you know, signing bad deal, signing horrible deals. Have have 0:51:46.120 --> 0:51:49.719 have no experience, no guidance. Uh. And and when a 0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:53.240 label comes to you and says, you know, here's grand 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:57.320 for the rights to your smash viral single on TikTok, 0:51:57.800 --> 0:51:59.920 and you know your mom needs to pay the rent 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:03.680 and you know you have no career prospects at the moment, 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:06.160 like if you're going to sign you know, so that 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:10.239 that's where the that's where the uh, the exploitation, I 0:52:10.280 --> 0:52:13.480 think really comes in here. Now they talk about income. 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:15.600 We talked about little Yahdi, but he had his own 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:20.400 look using my air Quotes brand. But in the traditional 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.759 mainstream music business, which is now becoming you know, this 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:26.960 is the mainstream business. What I'm trying to say is 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:30.439 you have the record contract, if you have an endorsement deal, 0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:36.440 it's publicized sponsorship product. Your grosses are in poll star. 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:41.120 You talk about these guys going on the road, maybe 0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:45.560 dropping in multiple gigs a night, just making a two 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:50.279 track appearance, like it's a whole another subculture that's not reported. 0:52:50.920 --> 0:52:54.080 So what can you tell us about that? Look, I 0:52:54.160 --> 0:52:57.600 can't speak to how this stuff is reported on taxes, right, 0:52:57.680 --> 0:53:02.960 and how this income is is logged. Um. Again, that's 0:53:03.160 --> 0:53:07.520 beyond my pay grade. I'm not an accountant. Um. But 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.319 but look, yeah, this is there's a cash business here, right, 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:13.080 whether it's like you said features right, a rapper pay 0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:16.800 is another rapper ten grand, twenty grand, fifty grand, a 0:53:16.880 --> 0:53:19.439 hundred grand to to get on the track with them 0:53:19.480 --> 0:53:22.319 for extra attention. You know, you make a club appearance. 0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:25.440 You know you you hear a lot of rappers these days. Um. 0:53:25.480 --> 0:53:27.919 You know, getting getting a little wonky with economics talking 0:53:27.920 --> 0:53:30.319 about the back end, right, So you get a get 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:33.480 a certain a certain amount of the of the payment 0:53:33.560 --> 0:53:36.160 to show up and wrap two songs at a club 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:38.799 in the V I P. Section. Uh, you know up 0:53:38.840 --> 0:53:41.080 front when you sign and then you go, and then 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:43.560 as you're walking out they hand you the rest in 0:53:43.600 --> 0:53:48.040 cash and that's the back end, right. Um. So yeah, 0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:52.000 I think just like this culture comes from mix tapes, right, 0:53:52.080 --> 0:53:54.839 this this this world this is and I think this 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:57.640 is why. One of the reasons why rap music was 0:53:57.680 --> 0:53:59.719 so quick to adapt to streaming, right is it was 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:02.480 you too moving quickly. It was used to being a 0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:05.759 volume business. It was used to being about market share, right, 0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:10.359 And these were homemade recordings, tapes, c d s uh 0:54:10.640 --> 0:54:13.080 sold out of the trunks of cars, so that flea markets, 0:54:13.080 --> 0:54:18.000 at barber shops, you know, covers printed on a ink jet. 0:54:18.520 --> 0:54:23.160 You know, beats taken from online and not cleared, um 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:26.880 cash changing hands like this is ah, these these are 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:30.399 these are underground economists uh and and there's a ton 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:33.080 of them that overlap I think uh in in in 0:54:33.160 --> 0:54:36.960 wraps specifically. So yeah, you know, whole star is one thing, 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:39.759 but you know, good luck to good luck to them 0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:43.200 and and the Forbes list to really get to the 0:54:43.200 --> 0:54:45.920 bottom of how a Southern rapper makes money on the 0:54:45.960 --> 0:54:51.279 club circuit. Okay, another thing you talk about is how 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:55.560 really it's not gag oriented. And then a game comes, 0:54:55.600 --> 0:55:02.359 I believe from Detroit and really permeates Atlanta and Florida 0:55:02.520 --> 0:55:06.600 until it's ultimately busted. And you're talking about today the 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:09.560 flourishing of strip clubs. To what degree is at a 0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:12.000 side show? To what degree does that have an effect 0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:16.359 on the flourishing of rap in Atlanta? So you're you're 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:19.759 referring to be a meth black mafia family. This is 0:55:20.160 --> 0:55:23.359 you know, this is a a well known story. At 0:55:23.360 --> 0:55:25.600 this point, I don't I don't spend too much time 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:27.960 on it. Um. You know, there's a there's a great 0:55:28.000 --> 0:55:33.000 book about BMF, there's television series about BMF. Countless documentary 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:36.359 is Amelian YouTube videos. Um, but this is yeah, this 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.879 is street lore right of a big meache coming down 0:55:40.880 --> 0:55:45.920 to Atlanta after building his his cocaine syndicate uh out 0:55:45.960 --> 0:55:49.879 of Detroit with his brother. The two brothers run run 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:52.840 the business together. One of them moves to Atlanta and 0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:55.000 he decides he wants to get into wrap right. And 0:55:55.040 --> 0:55:59.359 they they have an artist Blue Da Vinci, who never 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:01.840 comes in anything. But they also have a sort of 0:56:01.840 --> 0:56:06.520 off paper alliance with young Jeezy who really really makes 0:56:06.520 --> 0:56:09.520 the most out of out of this association, um and 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:13.200 becomes a big star even though he wasn't technically signed 0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:15.160 to their label. But you know, they have a they 0:56:15.200 --> 0:56:19.000 have a magazine. As you said, like you know, according 0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:22.200 to everybody, the clubs were flushed with money. The nightlife 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:26.440 was crazy. Uh you know this this was It's the 0:56:26.520 --> 0:56:29.480 same thing you saw in Miami, right, cocaine cowboys. You 0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:32.960 know you even going back to prohibition, right, this is 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:37.560 what Boardock Empire is about, which is you know, money 0:56:37.640 --> 0:56:41.560 trickles down right from from illegal enterprise when it hits 0:56:41.560 --> 0:56:45.319 a certain level and and everybody wins, right the restaurants, 0:56:46.120 --> 0:56:50.920 the clubs, the recording studios, the you know, uh, the 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:54.279 luxury stores at the mall. Um. So yeah, when you're 0:56:54.320 --> 0:56:58.360 talking about what you're talking about Atlanta. You know, the 0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:02.160 the first wave that I that I talked about in 0:57:02.200 --> 0:57:04.840 the beginning of the book. You know, that's that's Jermaine 0:57:04.920 --> 0:57:09.440 dupri that's Outcasts, that's the Face Records ELI read baby Face, 0:57:09.560 --> 0:57:14.200 you know TLC not really not really street wrap uh 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:17.640 as as as we know it now. Um. But but 0:57:17.760 --> 0:57:20.920 when when trap takes over right in the in the 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:24.560 late nineties, early two thousand's, a lot of that comes 0:57:24.720 --> 0:57:27.360 from B m F and the lifestyle that they were, 0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:31.080 you know, propagating around the clubs, around the venues um 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:35.360 and people were either affiliated, uh you know, tangential. They 0:57:35.360 --> 0:57:37.560 wanted to keep up, they wanted to be in the mix. 0:57:37.680 --> 0:57:40.320 You know. I think so that that I think is 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:45.360 is extremely influential, um, both economically, but also culturally and 0:57:45.360 --> 0:57:48.680 and stylistically. This idea of of you know, glits and 0:57:48.800 --> 0:57:52.680 flash and Glamour. Um. You know people wrap about it 0:57:52.720 --> 0:57:55.240 to this day, right, Big meatch having tigers at his 0:57:55.320 --> 0:57:58.480 birthday party. Um. And I spoke for the book to 0:57:58.480 --> 0:58:03.000 to this party planner, Hannah Kang, who's still the biggest 0:58:03.120 --> 0:58:07.240 best you know, black celebrity party planner. And she she's 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:09.440 she's a Korean woman. But but she she says in 0:58:09.480 --> 0:58:11.640 the book, you know, I've never worked for a white 0:58:11.640 --> 0:58:14.439 person in my whole career in Atlanta, which I which 0:58:14.480 --> 0:58:17.160 I just which I loved, and I think really gives you, 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.320 you know, a portrait of this place as as Black Mecca, 0:58:20.400 --> 0:58:24.760 black Hollywood, whatever you want to call it. Um. But 0:58:24.760 --> 0:58:27.320 but yeah, you know, the BMF legend just sort of 0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:30.800 looms really large to this day. You know everybody I 0:58:30.840 --> 0:58:32.720 talked to her like, oh, it'll never it'll never be 0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:36.000 like that again. Um. And and you know, whether that's 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:39.120 whether whether that's completely accurate or not, Like, that's that's 0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:45.400 how that's that's how myths build and and and carry on. Right. Okay, 0:58:46.000 --> 0:58:51.640 you depict the strip clubs, you say, when the the 0:58:52.280 --> 0:58:57.280 the Mafia family ultimately gets taken down, strip clubs get 0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.800 taken down, but still you know they're cutting track they'll 0:59:00.840 --> 0:59:03.280 go to the strip club to demo it. Then you 0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:06.400 have another guy at the strip club talking about the 0:59:06.480 --> 0:59:10.480 right way to make it rain to this day, what 0:59:10.640 --> 0:59:14.120 is the status of strip clubs and how much influence 0:59:14.160 --> 0:59:16.760 do they have visa VI the music and the culture. 0:59:18.120 --> 0:59:20.640 So this is again something that that's been written about 0:59:20.640 --> 0:59:22.600 many times over the years. I didn't want to linger 0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:24.280 on it too much in the book because I felt 0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:26.880 like it's pretty well established. My my close friend and 0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:30.280 colleague John Carmonica did a great story about Atlantic strip 0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:33.480 clubs as a as a proving gun for records. Another 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:36.800 one of my colleagues, Richard Fossett, did one uh when 0:59:36.880 --> 0:59:40.000 when when he was at the l A times I believe, Um, 0:59:40.000 --> 0:59:42.680 but but this has happened for decades at this point, 0:59:42.760 --> 0:59:45.439 which is uh, you know, this is like I said, 0:59:45.480 --> 0:59:47.880 this is a proving ground, right, This is this is 0:59:47.920 --> 0:59:50.400 party music often right, This is music for dancing to. 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:52.640 This is music for that you know, makes people want 0:59:52.680 --> 0:59:56.840 to spend money. Um, and it's its own economy, Like 0:59:56.880 --> 0:59:59.560 we were talking about the illicit economies. You know. You 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:03.160 you go, you slip the DJ a little money, he 1:00:03.240 --> 1:00:06.840 plays your track. If the dancers like it, they dance 1:00:06.920 --> 1:00:10.640 better to the track. That then makes customers spend more 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:12.800 money on them. Right, and then they want to hear 1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.200 your song again, so they requested again. Uh. And and 1:00:16.560 --> 1:00:19.040 you know it's it's this whole it's a whole economy. 1:00:19.080 --> 1:00:23.360 I I spent a night um at a club called Follies, 1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:27.840 which no longer exists, uh, with with this guy DJ John. Uh. 1:00:27.880 --> 1:00:30.360 And this didn't make the book. This could be its 1:00:30.360 --> 1:00:35.440 own book. Honestly. DJ John Uh, amazing guy, big white guy, 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:39.320 started djaying and strip clubs. You know when they were 1:00:39.360 --> 1:00:42.240 not allowed to play rap music, right, he said. When 1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:45.720 he started at Folly's, it was it was a rock bar. Right, 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:49.280 it was like a bon Jovi motley crew, you know, 1:00:50.160 --> 1:00:53.040 the you know, airport workers would go there and and 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:58.560 rap was banned. Right. DJ John worked in Follies every 1:00:58.640 --> 1:01:02.160 week for more than twenty years. Right. I wanted to 1:01:02.200 --> 1:01:05.200 call him the cal Ripken Jr. Of Atlanta strip clubs 1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:09.200 because and and he guts to see the whole thing change. Right. 1:01:09.400 --> 1:01:11.880 By the time I spent a night with him at Folly's, 1:01:11.920 --> 1:01:15.320 he was managing a rapper himself. He had no interest 1:01:15.360 --> 1:01:18.200 in in rap music when he started there, but he 1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:21.000 would he would take money to play whatever songs people 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:23.960 wanted to hear. Usually that means their own song, but 1:01:24.000 --> 1:01:26.120 it could just be a request, right if if Bob, 1:01:26.160 --> 1:01:28.400 if you rolled in and and you wanted to hear 1:01:28.720 --> 1:01:33.800 uh you know, uh shake your tail feather by Nelly, 1:01:33.920 --> 1:01:37.840 you could you could send John uh money on PayPal 1:01:38.120 --> 1:01:40.240 and he'll play it right then and there. Um. So 1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:42.960 people do it as a as a promotional tactic because 1:01:43.080 --> 1:01:44.920 I think you know, one of the things that makes 1:01:44.960 --> 1:01:48.880 Atlanta so special, uh is that there really is a 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:52.680 local scene and things break on the ground before they 1:01:52.680 --> 1:01:56.720 break nationally. Right. And that's something that's like an age 1:01:56.760 --> 1:01:59.920 old tale in the music industry, but has has been upended. 1:02:00.160 --> 1:02:03.680 Right now. You can be from Singapore and you can 1:02:03.720 --> 1:02:06.240 drop a song it sounds like Atlanta rap on YouTube 1:02:06.520 --> 1:02:08.880 and maybe you get big before anybody even knows who 1:02:08.920 --> 1:02:12.200 you are, right, your song goes viral on TikTok or 1:02:12.240 --> 1:02:17.480 whatever you know. Uh. And yet these artists and these 1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:21.480 labels in Atlanta, like they still see the value in 1:02:22.040 --> 1:02:26.200 building an audience, right, building a groundswell of people, because 1:02:26.360 --> 1:02:29.000 because that's how you build careers, right instead of one 1:02:29.040 --> 1:02:33.160 off hits, uh, you you you you get a loyal 1:02:33.240 --> 1:02:37.080 fan base. And and this happens in nightlife, right and 1:02:37.120 --> 1:02:39.760 so whether it's whether it's a strip club or a 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:43.760 club club or somewhere in between. You know, they want 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:46.560 their music to work there first because they feel like 1:02:46.600 --> 1:02:49.120 once they have the neighborhood behind them and then they 1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:51.280 have the city behind them, that that's going to serve 1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:56.000 them well when they break nationally. Okay, on the other 1:02:56.080 --> 1:02:58.720 side of the fens from the artists, you talk about 1:02:58.800 --> 1:03:03.680 quality control, talk about Coach K and you talk about 1:03:03.800 --> 1:03:07.440 p and you talk about where they came from. What 1:03:07.720 --> 1:03:12.080 is so special about them that they can engender success. 1:03:15.560 --> 1:03:19.040 I mean, I think they're really really, really really bright 1:03:19.120 --> 1:03:22.240 business minds right first and foremost, I think they also 1:03:22.320 --> 1:03:26.760 make a great pair, a really complementary pair, right Um. 1:03:26.960 --> 1:03:30.960 Coach you know, Coach grew up in in Indianapolis. Uh. 1:03:32.040 --> 1:03:35.600 He he came to Atlanta, you know, as a young man, 1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:38.600 drawn in by Freaknik, which is the sort of big 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:42.000 black college spring break thing that really you know, put 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:45.160 put put Atlanta nightlife on the map. Uh in the 1:03:45.200 --> 1:03:48.600 early nineties. Uh. And he spent a lot of time, 1:03:48.640 --> 1:03:53.040 as I've mentioned, sort of you know, working artists after 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:58.840 artists after artist as a manager, building these relationships with radio, 1:03:59.080 --> 1:04:02.960 with their labels, with other artists, with producers, you know, 1:04:03.120 --> 1:04:08.720 just years, decades right of groundwork, and you know, grew 1:04:08.760 --> 1:04:13.080 into a godfather of of the scene. Right. Everybody knows him. 1:04:13.120 --> 1:04:16.000 Everybody respects him, They respects a year, they respect the 1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:21.440 way he does business. Um, and and piece of pieas different. Right, 1:04:21.480 --> 1:04:24.280 he didn't start as a musician. He started in the 1:04:24.280 --> 1:04:26.720 streets like he'll he'll, he'll tell you that, you know. 1:04:26.800 --> 1:04:30.000 And and he's one of these guys who saw music 1:04:30.200 --> 1:04:32.720 as a way out right. He wanted to invest the 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:36.040 money he'd made. He had some real estate, he bought 1:04:36.040 --> 1:04:40.120 a studio. He tried to make it work. He wasn't 1:04:40.120 --> 1:04:44.040 sure what to do. I wasn't finding success. Realized you 1:04:44.080 --> 1:04:46.560 know that as as much money as you can make 1:04:46.600 --> 1:04:49.640 in music and rap music, you can lose it just 1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:54.280 as quickly. Right, total gamble um. But when he partnered 1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:59.200 with Coach and they discovered megas, they just both bring 1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:02.960 something different at the table, right. Coach coaches plugged, coaches 1:05:02.960 --> 1:05:06.520 plugged in in the boardrooms and the radio stations. And 1:05:06.520 --> 1:05:09.400 and he's a talent scout, right, He knows. He knows 1:05:09.440 --> 1:05:13.480 what's going on in in these neighborhoods. He he he 1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:17.640 meets young kids, artists, people who you know, show him 1:05:17.760 --> 1:05:20.520 what's happening. And he's a motivator. Right. I saw him 1:05:20.680 --> 1:05:22.280 do it over and over again. I saw him do 1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:24.400 it with a little baby firsthand. I saw him do 1:05:24.440 --> 1:05:27.720 it with Marlowe firsthand. He's the one who can say 1:05:28.000 --> 1:05:30.640 I've been where you've been, right, I've seen what you've seen. 1:05:30.720 --> 1:05:33.520 I've gone through these things, and I promise you you 1:05:33.640 --> 1:05:36.880 listen to me and you follow what I tell you. 1:05:37.640 --> 1:05:39.160 Not only are we going to make a lot of money, 1:05:39.240 --> 1:05:41.000 not only are you going to be able to help 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:43.200 your family, but you're going to be safer. Right. And 1:05:43.240 --> 1:05:45.960 he's he's really taking it upon himself, I think too. 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:51.440 You know uh mentor these artists right, and what they 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:54.240 talk about is is artist development, Right, This is something 1:05:54.280 --> 1:05:58.760 that is nearly extinct in the record business. And why 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:02.880 we see you know, one hit wonder uh every day 1:06:03.080 --> 1:06:05.880 right on TikTok or you know a half a hit wonder, 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:08.360 like sometimes they're not even making the billboard chart. Um. 1:06:08.920 --> 1:06:12.800 And and one funny story, I think it didn't didn't 1:06:12.840 --> 1:06:15.600 make the book might be in a Times article. Um, 1:06:16.520 --> 1:06:18.360 but they had to they have to stop themselves right 1:06:18.360 --> 1:06:20.480 from going after some of these viral things. There was 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:22.960 a moment when I first started reporting on these guys 1:06:22.960 --> 1:06:25.640 when I think he said, you know, uh, there was 1:06:25.880 --> 1:06:28.520 the girl known as the catch me outside girl, right, 1:06:28.600 --> 1:06:31.280 she became she became bad baby. She went viral on 1:06:31.320 --> 1:06:34.680 a Dr Phil clip, and they were like, maybe you know, 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:36.960 she started rapping, because you know, what do you what 1:06:37.000 --> 1:06:39.280 do you what do you do after you have a 1:06:39.360 --> 1:06:42.439 viral moment, Maybe maybe you start you start rapping. And 1:06:42.520 --> 1:06:44.040 you know, I think I think it was p one 1:06:44.040 --> 1:06:46.040 of them was like, maybe we should go after her, 1:06:46.120 --> 1:06:48.400 like maybe we should do this and and and coach 1:06:48.440 --> 1:06:50.680 said like no, like that's not what we do. Like, 1:06:50.800 --> 1:06:52.720 let's keep our eye on the ball, right. What we 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:57.480 do is we build artists, we build careers, we build brands. Um. 1:06:57.560 --> 1:07:00.880 And yeah, they're with these guys. They're with these guys 1:07:01.000 --> 1:07:04.640 every day right there, constantly sending new music back and forth, 1:07:04.880 --> 1:07:09.160 constantly pushing them do more shows, record more, another mixtape, 1:07:09.160 --> 1:07:13.640 another video. And yeah, it's just a it's a it's 1:07:13.680 --> 1:07:18.600 a unit a yang duo um that you know everybody 1:07:18.600 --> 1:07:21.400 on the label responds to either. You know, they may 1:07:21.440 --> 1:07:23.360 be closer with one, they may be closer with the other, 1:07:23.960 --> 1:07:26.280 but they respect both of them. And I think, you know, 1:07:26.400 --> 1:07:29.520 at this point, they've turned out so many artists who 1:07:30.920 --> 1:07:34.640 again don't have a hit song, but have real careers. Uh, 1:07:35.360 --> 1:07:37.360 you know, I put them up there with you know, 1:07:37.520 --> 1:07:41.960 uh no limit or cash money or a G unit whatever, 1:07:42.000 --> 1:07:44.120 you know, whatever. These rap crews and labels over the 1:07:44.200 --> 1:07:46.360 last twenty years who have been able to make more 1:07:46.400 --> 1:07:49.520 than one star, like to do it once as a miracle, 1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:52.000 right to do it five times. It's like it's a 1:07:52.120 --> 1:08:02.440 it's a it's a system. Now. Another thing you depict 1:08:02.520 --> 1:08:05.480 in the book that is different from traditional conception of 1:08:05.520 --> 1:08:11.960 the music business is the recording. Now, traditional music business, 1:08:12.000 --> 1:08:14.440 you know, maybe you'll have pre production to work on 1:08:14.480 --> 1:08:16.280 the song, and I said, well, we have ten songs 1:08:16.320 --> 1:08:19.640 when we record them, you know. But here people are 1:08:19.720 --> 1:08:23.000 running around with hard drives and you know, depict one thing, 1:08:23.040 --> 1:08:25.240 Oh there's a famous studio in New York. Well let's 1:08:25.560 --> 1:08:27.799 you know, we got an hour free, let's go record. 1:08:28.760 --> 1:08:33.560 So you know, they're constantly recording, and a great percentage 1:08:33.560 --> 1:08:39.320 of the stuff never even comes out right so yeah, 1:08:39.720 --> 1:08:43.599 it's how much do these people alter. Let's say you're wanting, 1:08:43.600 --> 1:08:46.400 you know, one of these guys in quality control, how 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:52.400 much will you record before they release something? Dozens, hundreds, 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:56.840 thousands of songs, probably on hard drives. Right, This is 1:08:56.960 --> 1:09:01.760 it's a it's a volume business. It's you know, they're 1:09:01.760 --> 1:09:03.760 putting out a ton of music. Right if you look 1:09:03.800 --> 1:09:07.160 at look at Little Babies discography, the first whatever, it's 1:09:07.200 --> 1:09:10.160 been five years of his career, right, stack that up 1:09:10.160 --> 1:09:13.080 against you know, of course they're there are rock bands 1:09:13.120 --> 1:09:15.559 that that put out a ton of music whatever I 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:18.639 guided by voices or you know, some something like that. Sure, 1:09:19.240 --> 1:09:24.479 but traditionally a major label chart topping artists, right, what 1:09:24.479 --> 1:09:27.599 they're going to put out twelve to fifteen songs every 1:09:27.640 --> 1:09:32.439 eighteen months? Will Baby put out five mixtapes in ten months? Right, 1:09:32.520 --> 1:09:36.360 each of them probably between fifteen and twenty tracks. Um, 1:09:36.400 --> 1:09:39.160 this is what the audience wants, right, they're responding to 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:44.519 they're responding to the audience. They're there, they're churning at 1:09:44.560 --> 1:09:48.080 this rate. And and it's an artistic choice as well, right, 1:09:48.120 --> 1:09:51.599 Like the guys that they are emulating, the guys who 1:09:51.640 --> 1:09:56.599 who started this, uh, this practice of recording in this 1:09:56.640 --> 1:10:01.200 way improvisationally, uh, putting a ton of music out. This 1:10:01.240 --> 1:10:04.400 is this Gucci Man, this is Little Wayne, Uh, this 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:10.479 is young Thug. These guys are all We're putting out many, 1:10:10.520 --> 1:10:12.760 many mixtapes a year. Guci Man was putting out three 1:10:12.760 --> 1:10:15.800 mix tapes on the same day at one point, at 1:10:15.800 --> 1:10:20.360 the peak of his career. Um. And there's just there's 1:10:20.400 --> 1:10:25.600 a lack of preciousness um about the art. Um. But 1:10:27.080 --> 1:10:29.760 I think the important thing to realize is, like that 1:10:29.800 --> 1:10:33.040 doesn't necessarily make it worse, you know what I mean? Like, 1:10:33.120 --> 1:10:39.640 I think the the the the audience, like the it 1:10:39.760 --> 1:10:43.000 showed like people people care about this music as much 1:10:43.040 --> 1:10:46.360 as you might care about a Beatles song, right that 1:10:46.439 --> 1:10:49.280 they spent six months working on, Right, we see it 1:10:49.400 --> 1:10:52.880 and like they get back music video. But but that 1:10:52.960 --> 1:10:58.040 doesn't that's not like a one isn't necessarily better than 1:10:58.080 --> 1:11:00.200 the other, right, And I think that that's you know, 1:11:00.240 --> 1:11:04.040 there's a there's this idea that it's that it's disposable, um. 1:11:04.080 --> 1:11:07.960 But it's only as disposable as as as the audience 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:10.439 wants it to be. Right, Like I I think I 1:11:10.479 --> 1:11:13.920 think we'll be playing bad em bougie at weddings in 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:18.920 in fifty years, right, Um, and maybe you know it 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:23.200 was made in one take in offset spacemen, but uh, 1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:25.679 you know, I think it's it's incredible to watch also, 1:11:25.840 --> 1:11:29.559 just the the way they sort of start and stop 1:11:29.640 --> 1:11:33.040 without writing anything down, uh, and sort of creating these 1:11:33.080 --> 1:11:36.960 these melodies, these flows, these rhymes, uh, these jokes, these 1:11:37.000 --> 1:11:41.000 stories in real time. So I feel truly, truly blessed 1:11:41.040 --> 1:11:42.920 to have been able to to to see it in 1:11:42.960 --> 1:11:45.760 person as much as I have. Okay, so you have 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:49.200 all these rappers, where's all the where all the beats 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:52.920 or of the music coming from? You know, That's something 1:11:52.960 --> 1:11:54.800 I wish I got into more in the book. Right, 1:11:54.840 --> 1:11:58.200 there's a whole other book to be written about Atlanta producers. Um. 1:11:58.439 --> 1:12:01.680 But they're working at a similar pace, right. You have 1:12:02.240 --> 1:12:05.879 you know, guys like Metro booming, Um, guys like Murder Beats, 1:12:06.160 --> 1:12:10.720 Guys like Zethoven. You know, a classically trained pianists who 1:12:10.439 --> 1:12:14.720 who played in church with his parents. He's you know, 1:12:15.040 --> 1:12:21.880 instrumental to the careers of future Gucci Man, Negosh and 1:12:21.880 --> 1:12:25.000 and and they're working similarly, right, They're making hundreds and 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:28.599 hundreds of beats, dozens of beats maybe you know, thousands 1:12:28.680 --> 1:12:31.680 of beats over the course of their career, and and 1:12:31.720 --> 1:12:35.679 they're spreading them around their network right there. File sharing 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:38.720 so easy, drop box, you know. I remember being in 1:12:38.720 --> 1:12:41.280 the studio with Marlowe who's trying to find something that 1:12:41.320 --> 1:12:43.800 inspired him. He just pulled up a Gmail, right. I 1:12:43.840 --> 1:12:47.120 guess you know you post looking for beats posted Gmail 1:12:47.120 --> 1:12:50.320 address on your Instagram story. Dozens of kids will hit 1:12:50.400 --> 1:12:54.479 you, you you know, with with a beat within five ten minutes, 1:12:55.000 --> 1:12:58.240 just clicking around attachments, trying to find something that inspires him, 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:01.720 trying to find something that that catches the year. Um. 1:13:01.840 --> 1:13:05.719 There are guys who make very bespoke versions of this right, Um, 1:13:06.080 --> 1:13:09.920 people who will work months on the same beat, you know, 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:12.200 get getting the high hat just right, getting the base 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:14.280 just right. And then there are people who will just 1:13:14.479 --> 1:13:17.320 you know, make three beats in an hour. Uh, and 1:13:17.400 --> 1:13:19.839 there's no telling which one is gonna become the basis 1:13:19.840 --> 1:13:22.000 for a hit song. Right, So it's like it's a 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:26.400 grab bag. Yeah. Like I said, you know, the producers 1:13:26.880 --> 1:13:29.960 were not as big of a role in this book. 1:13:30.000 --> 1:13:31.439 I spoke, I spoke to a lot of them, and 1:13:31.520 --> 1:13:33.720 I saw a lot of them work. Um, but they 1:13:33.760 --> 1:13:36.280 just didn't fit as much with the narrative. But you know, 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:39.719 i'd gladly, gladly read that book to you know, I 1:13:39.720 --> 1:13:43.040 I get into some of this um in the video 1:13:43.080 --> 1:13:45.760 series I do for The Times Diary of Song, which 1:13:45.800 --> 1:13:48.200 is about about the making of tracks, and you know 1:13:48.240 --> 1:13:51.360 how how stuff is created and then it's made marketed 1:13:51.439 --> 1:13:55.080 and it goes viral sort of uh in this era. Um. 1:13:55.120 --> 1:13:57.080 But you know you think of something like Old Town Road, 1:13:57.760 --> 1:14:02.280 which funnily enough was know was recorded in an Atlanta 1:14:02.320 --> 1:14:06.519 studio um by Little nos X, but the beat came 1:14:06.600 --> 1:14:10.240 from a Dutch teenager who he never met before, who 1:14:10.400 --> 1:14:13.120 sampled the nine Inch Nails song that he'd never heard 1:14:13.160 --> 1:14:16.400 before that he pulled off YouTube you know, um so 1:14:17.320 --> 1:14:21.960 and and then sold or least even for what like 1:14:22.040 --> 1:14:25.320 fifty seventy five bucks. Um. You know, they are endless 1:14:25.320 --> 1:14:28.840 sites for free beats, for cheap beats, for you know, 1:14:29.120 --> 1:14:31.800 beats you can lease for a month, see if it 1:14:31.840 --> 1:14:35.920 takes off six months. Um. And you know, the business 1:14:35.920 --> 1:14:39.080 of the stuff gets gets super naughty when it comes 1:14:39.120 --> 1:14:44.520 to to clearing and samples and rights holders and publishing 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:46.920 and all of that. Like I don't know, you know, 1:14:47.160 --> 1:14:50.680 I don't envy the people behind the scenes who have 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:53.120 to clear all this music. Um, but it's a it's 1:14:53.120 --> 1:14:58.519 an extremely fascinating and fast paced way to to create. Now, 1:14:58.560 --> 1:15:01.759 you make the point you referenced earlier that these guys 1:15:01.760 --> 1:15:05.000 in Atlanta a great degree are recording differently from people 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:09.000 previous in rap in that they're literally doing it. Not 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:12.599 sometimes we're by we're but usually phrase by phrase. They're 1:15:12.640 --> 1:15:14.919 not starting up with a whole thing. Can you amplify 1:15:14.960 --> 1:15:17.960 that a little bit? Yeah? Correct? So so, I mean 1:15:18.080 --> 1:15:21.280 jay Z famously, you know, says he never writes his 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:24.720 lyrics down, right. But but the amazing thing about jay Z, 1:15:24.840 --> 1:15:26.920 according to you know, people have seen it. I've never 1:15:27.000 --> 1:15:30.439 I've never watched jay Z record other than in you know, 1:15:30.520 --> 1:15:33.400 The Fades of Black documentary and in various YouTube videos. 1:15:33.439 --> 1:15:36.200 But he's wrapping whole verses at a time, right, things 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:38.280 that he comes up with in his head and remembers. 1:15:38.439 --> 1:15:42.280 Um And and I think little Wayne uh Is is 1:15:42.320 --> 1:15:45.559 the same way. Um. He another one I think, having 1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:48.040 learned from jay Z, you know, it's a point of pride, 1:15:48.080 --> 1:15:50.160 right that he never wrote down his lyrics. But you 1:15:50.200 --> 1:15:52.320 think of you know, some people might think of rap 1:15:52.360 --> 1:15:54.599 as you know, a guy with a with a black 1:15:54.640 --> 1:15:58.439 and white journal pad right scribbling down stands as like 1:15:58.479 --> 1:16:01.440 they're a poem, and then wrapping them into a microphone. 1:16:01.840 --> 1:16:05.639 But the Atlanta style, especially over the last ten years, 1:16:06.000 --> 1:16:08.960 um following the footsteps of those guys that I named, 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:14.519 is extremely improvisational, and it happens directly into the microphone, right. 1:16:14.720 --> 1:16:17.200 Sometimes you know, some little baby said. You know, every 1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:19.120 now and then I'll get hired to do a feature 1:16:19.200 --> 1:16:21.519 for a song or whatever. I'll have an idea, I'll 1:16:21.640 --> 1:16:24.880 write something down, but almost always they're just playing the 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:29.360 beat on loop and wrapping their ideas directly into the mic, right. 1:16:29.400 --> 1:16:32.320 So they'll they'll often start with like a gibberish sort 1:16:32.360 --> 1:16:35.320 of thing, which I've seen pop top liners do as well, uh, 1:16:35.360 --> 1:16:40.400 sort of syllabic melodic uh, you know, get a rhythm 1:16:40.479 --> 1:16:43.720 down with just a just a nonsense phrase, and then 1:16:43.760 --> 1:16:45.519 they start to fill in words, and then they start 1:16:45.560 --> 1:16:47.880 to fill in phrases, and they start to fill in lines, 1:16:48.439 --> 1:16:50.960 and they'll just go sort of like you know, piece 1:16:51.000 --> 1:16:54.360 by piece by piece, um. And you know I described 1:16:54.400 --> 1:16:56.200 I described me goes doing this in the book and 1:16:56.520 --> 1:16:59.360 their their relationship with their engineer, right, has to be 1:16:59.439 --> 1:17:04.240 like basically basically telepathic. Right, the engineer knows when they 1:17:04.240 --> 1:17:07.639 want to go back, uh and do something, over keep something, 1:17:08.120 --> 1:17:10.360 you know, move on to the next thing, um and it. 1:17:10.479 --> 1:17:13.559 And it's the sort of this lego block process, whether 1:17:13.560 --> 1:17:16.760 they're just building and building and building um and then 1:17:16.760 --> 1:17:18.880 all of a sudden you have sixteen bars and and 1:17:18.880 --> 1:17:21.840 and you move on to the next one. Now, historically 1:17:22.200 --> 1:17:25.240 popular music has not been about the lyrics. The lyrics 1:17:25.280 --> 1:17:30.360 are secondary and the success of these songs, how much 1:17:30.400 --> 1:17:33.080 of it is the beat? How much of it is 1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:38.240 the lyrics in terms of the appeal? I think it 1:17:38.280 --> 1:17:41.120 really depends. I think you know, Southern rap gets a 1:17:41.320 --> 1:17:46.160 reputation for being non lyrical. You know, there's the term 1:17:46.200 --> 1:17:48.679 mumble rap that was in vogue a few years ago, 1:17:48.800 --> 1:17:52.280 talking about people like Yaddi and future um and me 1:17:52.400 --> 1:17:56.479 goes um. You know, I think that's sort of in 1:17:56.600 --> 1:18:01.200 line with biases against Southern people, and especially southern black 1:18:01.240 --> 1:18:03.960 people throughout history, right, this idea that you know, they 1:18:03.960 --> 1:18:08.040 have a country accent, therefore they're not as bright as 1:18:08.120 --> 1:18:11.280 you know, someone like Naz or whatever, who's a you know, 1:18:11.840 --> 1:18:18.479 northern storyteller. Um. But I mean to me, like, most 1:18:18.479 --> 1:18:24.360 of these guys are lyrical geniuses, right, and that's you know, 1:18:24.360 --> 1:18:27.400 from Gucci Man Too Young Thug to two Little Baby. 1:18:27.479 --> 1:18:29.240 Like I think if you you see the way they 1:18:29.280 --> 1:18:32.839 play with language, you see the way they they they 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:38.040 describe an image, right, there's often economy in the writing. Um, 1:18:38.120 --> 1:18:41.120 you know, the way they're putting phrases together, the way 1:18:41.160 --> 1:18:44.160 they're birthing new slang. You know, someone like Future I 1:18:44.200 --> 1:18:48.200 think is like completely unparalleled when it comes to like 1:18:48.680 --> 1:18:54.000 lingo and just the way he's inserting new idioms into 1:18:54.160 --> 1:18:56.840 popular culture, right, Like this is a skill. This is 1:18:56.880 --> 1:19:01.360 not like, this is not anything to be sneered at. Um. 1:19:01.400 --> 1:19:03.160 And I think you know, people get turned off by 1:19:03.200 --> 1:19:05.719 the auto tune, but if you listen to even someone 1:19:05.760 --> 1:19:08.679 like Little Baby, I think it's just a really sneakily lyrical, 1:19:08.960 --> 1:19:13.839 intricate rapper. Um. You know, his his his phrasing, his timing. 1:19:14.240 --> 1:19:17.120 He's so wordy. You know, you go see him in 1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:20.719 concert and in the and the breath control is amazing. 1:19:20.760 --> 1:19:24.120 He's just you know, these these sort of run on versus. 1:19:24.240 --> 1:19:29.840 Even even the choruses are often extremely wordy. Um. And yeah, 1:19:29.920 --> 1:19:34.160 there's just there's so many different flavors of this um, 1:19:34.200 --> 1:19:37.000 even within Atlanta, even within guys who might sound the 1:19:37.000 --> 1:19:41.760 same uh at at first at first glance. But you know, 1:19:41.840 --> 1:19:44.000 of course the beat is important, right, This is a 1:19:44.240 --> 1:19:46.200 this is like a music that is made to be 1:19:46.320 --> 1:19:49.160 felt often. You know, you you feel that you feel 1:19:49.200 --> 1:19:54.000 the baseline, you know, the melody, the high hats, um, 1:19:54.439 --> 1:19:57.080 the cadences, the patterns. Like you know, I think it 1:19:57.080 --> 1:20:00.920 wouldn't be as popular internationally uh as it is without 1:20:01.080 --> 1:20:04.000 a lot of that stuff. Um. You know they people 1:20:04.000 --> 1:20:07.280 in other markets might not even be following the slang 1:20:07.280 --> 1:20:10.320 in the lyrics. UM. But I think you you get 1:20:10.320 --> 1:20:12.240 out of it what you put into it. Like I 1:20:12.240 --> 1:20:15.120 think if you invest in these guys, you see sort 1:20:15.160 --> 1:20:19.400 of how they're how they're building uh stories, characters, narratives, 1:20:19.600 --> 1:20:21.679 not only within a song, but sort of over time 1:20:22.240 --> 1:20:26.160 on mix tapes, uh, you know, on albums, on guest 1:20:26.280 --> 1:20:31.040 versus you piecing together um, a story, a mythology and 1:20:31.160 --> 1:20:37.559 narrative sort of you know, internal um world right there. 1:20:37.600 --> 1:20:43.520 You know characters that recur um. You know, street names, geography, 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:45.840 it's a you know, it's it's like a it's a 1:20:45.840 --> 1:20:49.080 folk tradition. Um. I think in a lot of ways. 1:20:49.920 --> 1:20:53.120 Now you recite essentially thirty years worth of history in 1:20:53.120 --> 1:20:55.840 the book, and from those who are not deep in 1:20:55.880 --> 1:20:59.120 the scene, it appears that a lot of these acts 1:20:59.160 --> 1:21:03.599 had a commercial and social peak and then it's past. 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:06.920 Now the music business, to a great degree, that's the 1:21:06.960 --> 1:21:09.800 way it's run, but since to a degree it's an 1:21:09.880 --> 1:21:14.240 underground economy, some of it's not monetized. Are these people 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:18.360 peak peeking and disappearing or are they being kept alive 1:21:18.439 --> 1:21:23.760 in this subculture and able to continue to monetize their 1:21:23.960 --> 1:21:28.000 quote again, Brands, I think you're seeing a lot more 1:21:28.160 --> 1:21:32.920 longevity these days, right, I think music industry in general, 1:21:33.720 --> 1:21:39.400 um but in in raps specifically, there wasn't often the 1:21:39.479 --> 1:21:42.080 super long tale for these things, right you think of 1:21:42.360 --> 1:21:46.360 you think of the the the early New York rappers, Right, 1:21:46.880 --> 1:21:50.839 they didn't rap into their forties or even into their thirdies. 1:21:50.920 --> 1:21:54.200 You know, they were not celebrities in the same way 1:21:54.360 --> 1:21:57.120 that that you see Now you have guys who you know, 1:21:57.200 --> 1:22:00.360 put out their their best album twenty years ago who 1:22:00.400 --> 1:22:02.840 are still on the blogs and in the clubs and 1:22:02.920 --> 1:22:06.720 on TV every day. Um So, I think there is 1:22:06.760 --> 1:22:09.840 a there's a longer shelf life for these people, for 1:22:09.920 --> 1:22:13.760 these artists, especially as celebrities. UM. But I think rap 1:22:13.920 --> 1:22:17.080 music is still very much a young man's game, right. 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:21.559 There's always somebody fresher, There's always somebody doing something slightly different, 1:22:21.680 --> 1:22:25.640 something new. There's always somebody you know, SEXI or more dangerous, 1:22:25.680 --> 1:22:31.320 more experimental. Um and and these cycles go really quickly, right, 1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:33.759 I think even you know, you look at quality controls 1:22:33.760 --> 1:22:38.639 existed since uh you know when when when Mega started 1:22:38.680 --> 1:22:41.160 to blow up, and and and then you look at 1:22:41.160 --> 1:22:44.599 someone like Little Baby who's now in the A list himself, 1:22:44.680 --> 1:22:47.280 and they have many many rappers that have come after 1:22:47.360 --> 1:22:49.599 that that are you know, on their way up, like 1:22:49.760 --> 1:22:52.920 the churn, even within one label, uh, and you can 1:22:52.960 --> 1:22:55.439 see sort of you know who who's peaking at any 1:22:55.439 --> 1:22:59.720 given moment or or or who's coming from behind. Um. 1:22:59.800 --> 1:23:02.960 You know, I think the audiences are always in search 1:23:03.000 --> 1:23:05.799 of the next thing. Um But I think the idea, 1:23:05.960 --> 1:23:08.880 right is that at a at a label like this, 1:23:09.000 --> 1:23:11.639 and if if if you put out enough good work, 1:23:12.640 --> 1:23:14.880 even if it's in a quick period of time, and 1:23:14.920 --> 1:23:17.680 you sort of build your quote unquote brand, and you 1:23:17.800 --> 1:23:21.639 establish your relationships and your fan base, you can continue 1:23:21.680 --> 1:23:23.960 to tour. You can continue to get endorsements, you can 1:23:24.000 --> 1:23:27.280 continue to you know, be on television and show up 1:23:27.320 --> 1:23:29.519 at a word shows. You know. Luckily, I think for 1:23:29.520 --> 1:23:32.840 a lot of these rappers, the sort of mainstream mono 1:23:32.880 --> 1:23:37.280 culture uh in American popular culture is still pretty slow. Right, 1:23:37.640 --> 1:23:40.719 So even if you're considered a little bit uh passe 1:23:40.760 --> 1:23:43.519 a or you know, no longer the hot new thing 1:23:43.520 --> 1:23:48.400 and wrap, you're still going to be on network television. Okay, 1:23:48.520 --> 1:23:52.479 So music in general in this sort of grows out 1:23:52.479 --> 1:23:57.719 of what you're saying is overwhelming. You know, the hits 1:23:57.800 --> 1:24:01.320 and the Spotify top fifty never meant less used to 1:24:01.400 --> 1:24:03.639 have a hit in the old days, everybody knew it 1:24:03.760 --> 1:24:05.640 something you mean number one people haven't even heard of 1:24:05.680 --> 1:24:10.280 the act. So if one has not been following this 1:24:10.520 --> 1:24:16.200 music and an uneducated it just looks overwhelming. First their SoundCloud. 1:24:16.680 --> 1:24:20.840 There are mixed tapes continuing to come out, never mind 1:24:20.920 --> 1:24:24.120 the history. There's a lot of people in the game. 1:24:25.520 --> 1:24:28.599 Does one follow it without making it a full time job? 1:24:31.160 --> 1:24:33.240 I think this goes for any culture, right that you can. 1:24:33.320 --> 1:24:35.559 You can say the same thing about TV. Right, I 1:24:35.640 --> 1:24:38.040 might be watching a show that I think is is 1:24:38.160 --> 1:24:40.479 the best thing in the world on one streaming service 1:24:40.760 --> 1:24:43.160 and you don't even have a log in for that one, right, 1:24:43.200 --> 1:24:45.400 and you have no idea what I'm talking about. We 1:24:45.479 --> 1:24:47.280 think of, you know, I think you've written about this 1:24:47.280 --> 1:24:49.599 in the newsletter. You think of something like the bear, right, 1:24:49.760 --> 1:24:52.519 The bear in my world was a huge hit right 1:24:52.560 --> 1:24:58.160 among people in the media in you know, relatively young 1:24:58.479 --> 1:25:00.680 something like industry or the bear is like, that's what 1:25:00.720 --> 1:25:02.880 people are watching, that's what people are talking about. If 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:05.040 I go home and see my parents, they don't know 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:07.320 what the bear is, you know, or or maybe they 1:25:07.320 --> 1:25:09.680 clicked on it on Hulu and they accidentally found it. 1:25:09.720 --> 1:25:14.720 They didn't know it was trendy. Right, Um, Look, I 1:25:15.080 --> 1:25:19.479 think the monoculture that I just referenced, like it barely 1:25:19.520 --> 1:25:22.080 exists anymore. Right with you? On that, I would say 1:25:22.080 --> 1:25:24.599 it doesn't exist at all. But okay, Yeah, Like, you know, 1:25:24.640 --> 1:25:27.920 they're a handful of things that breakthrough, right, Rihanna is 1:25:27.920 --> 1:25:30.439 going to play the super Bowl, Like that's a monoculture event, 1:25:30.640 --> 1:25:34.320 right Arguably, you know, maybe the Beatles documentary that Peter 1:25:34.439 --> 1:25:37.120 Jackson Beatles tument. I feel like that that broke through 1:25:37.160 --> 1:25:42.719 as much as I'd seen anything breakthrough in years right. Um, 1:25:42.720 --> 1:25:45.959 going back to two me goes, I think that Embouge 1:25:46.120 --> 1:25:48.400 was a number one song in the world. Did my 1:25:48.479 --> 1:25:51.800 grandparents know it? Probably not. I think it had a 1:25:51.960 --> 1:25:58.160 huge amount of permeation into into the mainstream. Um. And yet, 1:25:58.880 --> 1:26:01.360 like you're saying, and was that was five years ago, 1:26:01.400 --> 1:26:05.000 it's only gotten worse. Um. I think people choose their spots, right, 1:26:05.080 --> 1:26:08.120 they know what they're interested in, they know what Spotify 1:26:08.240 --> 1:26:11.559 serves them. They either listen to the radio or they don't. 1:26:11.720 --> 1:26:15.160 You know. I think look radio, like some of this 1:26:15.280 --> 1:26:19.320 music trickles up onto the radio usually after finding success 1:26:19.360 --> 1:26:22.680 on streaming. UM, sticks around for a long time, right. 1:26:22.720 --> 1:26:25.640 We see like the charts are pretty stagnant, especially the 1:26:25.640 --> 1:26:29.040 airplay charts. UM. But someone like Little Baby, He's found 1:26:29.040 --> 1:26:31.479 a ton of success on you know, what's referred to 1:26:31.520 --> 1:26:35.519 as urban radio, like many, many, many number one songs there, 1:26:35.720 --> 1:26:38.240 which means, you know, people driving home from work, they 1:26:38.640 --> 1:26:40.720 know the sound of his voice, even if they don't 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:45.000 know his biography. UM. But I think that there remains 1:26:45.080 --> 1:26:48.080 this question of like superstars, right, is there a next 1:26:48.120 --> 1:26:51.120 generation of superstar? Who is who is the next superstar? 1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:54.360 You know, I'm I'm looking at a little Baby's career. 1:26:54.360 --> 1:26:56.200 Now he has an album coming out right ahead of 1:26:56.200 --> 1:26:58.800 this book, and in mid October, he's you know, he's 1:26:59.280 --> 1:27:01.400 the he's in the theme song for the World Cup. 1:27:01.720 --> 1:27:04.920 Is he's he has a Budweiser sponsorship, right, It doesn't. 1:27:04.960 --> 1:27:07.160 It doesn't get much bigger than that. And yet if 1:27:07.200 --> 1:27:10.439 you ask you the average person on the street, depending 1:27:10.479 --> 1:27:13.559 on their age and where they're from in Times Square, 1:27:13.640 --> 1:27:15.559 I still don't know if they if if they know 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:18.200 who he is? Right Like, it's a it's a dice 1:27:18.320 --> 1:27:24.439 roll um. But I think, you know, if you want 1:27:24.479 --> 1:27:27.920 to pay attention, you can just pick a city, pick 1:27:27.960 --> 1:27:30.800 a YouTube account, pick a pick one artist, listen to 1:27:30.880 --> 1:27:32.760 the artist featured on their song. You know, I think 1:27:32.800 --> 1:27:36.640 there's there's a million different paths to follow, um, and 1:27:36.680 --> 1:27:39.120 you can get a decent picture of of where hip 1:27:39.120 --> 1:27:41.800 hop is at, where regional rap is at. But I 1:27:41.840 --> 1:27:46.400 agree in terms of you know, the what what what we? 1:27:46.520 --> 1:27:48.599 What I grew up on and certainly what you grew 1:27:48.720 --> 1:27:52.719 up on. That idea of like a discreete a list 1:27:52.760 --> 1:27:55.880 of artists, Uh, that doesn't exist anymore. You know, I've 1:27:55.920 --> 1:27:59.759 I've I've written about someone like NBA Young Boy who 1:28:00.000 --> 1:28:01.760 one of the biggest trappers in the world. You know, 1:28:02.000 --> 1:28:05.840 more YouTube streams than Taylor Swift, you know, and yet 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:11.160 no radio play, zero television appearances. Nobody under the age 1:28:11.160 --> 1:28:14.880 of thirty knows who he is, and certainly not white people. 1:28:15.520 --> 1:28:18.600 Um So, you know, I think, I think it's a 1:28:18.600 --> 1:28:22.839 different world, but I think that applies across all media. Okay, 1:28:22.880 --> 1:28:26.519 but let's go back to your TV analogy. You're talking 1:28:26.560 --> 1:28:30.479 about hipster's media people knowing the bear. I hear from 1:28:30.520 --> 1:28:35.400 a lot of people regularly, and there are not many 1:28:35.560 --> 1:28:40.479 students of the game of streaming television. So they'll have 1:28:40.560 --> 1:28:43.760 watched the same shows even though got horrific reviews. They'll 1:28:43.840 --> 1:28:49.479 watched the offer, They'll watched ted Lasso, etcetera. You start 1:28:49.600 --> 1:28:55.000 talking about Borgan, even one of the legendary and foreign shows, 1:28:55.200 --> 1:29:00.519 they have no idea what you're talking about. Sororitive organ obsessive. Right, 1:29:01.920 --> 1:29:05.160 that's another that's another podcast. But staying with the concept 1:29:05.200 --> 1:29:10.600 of music, theoretically you could pay attention to the Spotify 1:29:10.760 --> 1:29:15.800 top fifty. That could be your thing. And even narrower 1:29:15.840 --> 1:29:21.280 than that is terrestrial radio. At the other end of it. 1:29:21.320 --> 1:29:26.600 In the book, there's multiple people creating a plethora of 1:29:26.760 --> 1:29:31.360 product outside it looks like a lot of people are 1:29:31.439 --> 1:29:34.680 in that deep is the truth that there are a 1:29:34.720 --> 1:29:37.200 lot of people and this is just their passion or 1:29:37.240 --> 1:29:39.200 really there's a limited number of people who are very 1:29:39.240 --> 1:29:47.479 passionate about it. That's a great question, you know, I 1:29:47.520 --> 1:29:50.880 think because this is a local scene, right that that 1:29:50.920 --> 1:29:54.360 I'm writing about, Like there's a way to be famous 1:29:54.560 --> 1:29:58.280 in Atlanta specifically, where you're only famous in your city, 1:29:58.400 --> 1:30:01.439 right I can. And there are there a handful of 1:30:01.560 --> 1:30:03.840 artists at any given moment who if you went to 1:30:03.880 --> 1:30:07.000 the mall there down on the West End, like that's 1:30:07.000 --> 1:30:09.280 a celebrity, you know what I mean, that's a that's 1:30:09.320 --> 1:30:12.280 a that's a hero that's getting played out of cars 1:30:12.320 --> 1:30:16.760 in the parking lot. And yet there's no even in 1:30:16.800 --> 1:30:19.439 the Spotify era, even in the YouTube ere, there's no 1:30:19.520 --> 1:30:24.040 sort of permeation outward. Uh. And I think I think 1:30:24.040 --> 1:30:27.320 that exists in in most American cities. I think like 1:30:27.720 --> 1:30:31.559 there are still subcultures there, especially in music. There are 1:30:31.600 --> 1:30:37.400 still local scenes. There are you know, hometown heroes. Um. 1:30:37.640 --> 1:30:40.080 And that's one of the things that draws me so 1:30:40.160 --> 1:30:43.360 much to to wrap. I don't know, you know, if 1:30:43.400 --> 1:30:46.680 the same thing happens in rock, right, I don't know 1:30:46.840 --> 1:30:50.799 really definitely there. I I agree with you. I think 1:30:50.880 --> 1:30:53.439 you know, as much as we used to say, like 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:56.280 you could find a punk scene, you know, in any 1:30:56.320 --> 1:30:59.960 any metropolitan area or even a small town. I think 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:03.479 they're fewer and further between now. But I think rap 1:31:04.200 --> 1:31:07.519 works in that local and I think you do a 1:31:07.680 --> 1:31:11.800 very good job of depicting that. Let's talk about you specifically. 1:31:12.240 --> 1:31:15.080 This year you were beat. You wrote a book about Atlanta. 1:31:15.120 --> 1:31:17.840 But Atlanta is not the only epicenter of hip hop, 1:31:17.880 --> 1:31:20.280 if it might be the most prominent at this point, 1:31:21.240 --> 1:31:26.000 To what degree do you listen to the mix tapes 1:31:26.560 --> 1:31:30.360 of hip hop artists in New York l A never mind? Before? 1:31:30.600 --> 1:31:34.800 Do you keep up on all these people or go on? 1:31:36.080 --> 1:31:38.719 I keep up less than I used to write. I'm 1:31:38.840 --> 1:31:41.799 I'm getting I'm getting old, right, this was I'm I 1:31:41.880 --> 1:31:45.439 grew up file sharing, right. I grew up on the Internet. 1:31:45.520 --> 1:31:48.920 I was downloading music on Napster when I was you know, 1:31:49.040 --> 1:31:53.320 ten eleven years old. I'm the problem, you know. But 1:31:53.439 --> 1:31:57.080 I also was an obsessive fan. I was discovering music 1:31:57.120 --> 1:32:00.000 on message boards. I was, you know, on every social 1:32:00.080 --> 1:32:04.160 network that that that that was growing. Um And and 1:32:04.200 --> 1:32:07.320 I prided myself on keeping up right on knowing what 1:32:07.560 --> 1:32:10.160 was hot, on knowing what was going to be big 1:32:10.200 --> 1:32:12.519 before it was big. And that's you know, part of 1:32:12.520 --> 1:32:14.240 the reason I end up getting the job that I 1:32:14.280 --> 1:32:16.840 did is because I was honing those skills as a 1:32:16.840 --> 1:32:19.960 as a fan first, um and then you know, you 1:32:20.040 --> 1:32:23.040 learned about the industry, you read, you you develop an 1:32:23.040 --> 1:32:26.599 ear um and that's really helped me on my beat. 1:32:27.600 --> 1:32:30.240 But look, I mean I had a book to write, 1:32:30.280 --> 1:32:33.120 you know, I I have I have a dog, I 1:32:33.160 --> 1:32:36.080 have a life like I'm not spending as much time 1:32:36.280 --> 1:32:40.479 sort of um trawling the internet for obscure regional artists 1:32:40.520 --> 1:32:42.639 as I used to. But I think I keep up 1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:48.040 more than people. Okay, let me ask the question a 1:32:48.080 --> 1:32:52.280 different way. Prior to the Internet, anybody in the music 1:32:52.360 --> 1:32:55.960 business knew every record on the chart. We may not 1:32:56.080 --> 1:32:59.519 have literally heard it, but they know about it. Whatever 1:33:00.040 --> 1:33:03.439 anybody today says, they especially the album start. Anybody who 1:33:03.439 --> 1:33:05.640 says they know every album, they're just lying. Nobody does. 1:33:05.680 --> 1:33:11.120 There's always stuff there you don't know. John Parrellis knows. Well, 1:33:11.120 --> 1:33:13.320 we'll leave it to that, but not only don't debate 1:33:13.400 --> 1:33:17.840 this issue right now, I continue. So when I look 1:33:17.880 --> 1:33:23.160 at hip hop, is it the same thing that really 1:33:23.200 --> 1:33:27.439 they're different people in different things. Or is there a cadre, 1:33:27.520 --> 1:33:31.519 whether small or large, who literally have their finger on 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:34.120 the pulse in the nation about hip hop? Oh yeah, man, 1:33:34.160 --> 1:33:38.280 I listen to all the mixtapes. Does that even exist? Look? 1:33:38.280 --> 1:33:41.200 There are a few people you know that I could 1:33:41.200 --> 1:33:44.760 point to online who are younger and better than me, 1:33:44.800 --> 1:33:47.280 who I read, who I feel like, you know, they 1:33:47.680 --> 1:33:52.120 they really really really, you know, have their eye on things. Um. 1:33:52.160 --> 1:33:55.280 You know Alphonse, that Pitchfork you know, writes a weekly 1:33:55.360 --> 1:34:02.479 rap column. I'm continually continually blown away by his ability 1:34:02.600 --> 1:34:06.240 to keep up right, his ability to to find these 1:34:06.360 --> 1:34:10.120 these scenes, whether it's you know, Jersey Club or you 1:34:10.160 --> 1:34:13.280 know these Flint guys or you know San Jose and 1:34:13.400 --> 1:34:16.320 go down that rabbit hole. You know, there's wrap websites, 1:34:16.600 --> 1:34:20.479 you know, something like Passion of the Weiss where you 1:34:20.520 --> 1:34:26.519 know there's a new young, first time freelancer every week 1:34:26.800 --> 1:34:31.439 who's uncovering, Uh, you know a scene I've never heard of. Um, 1:34:31.800 --> 1:34:34.400 But I think even those people have to pick their 1:34:34.439 --> 1:34:37.760 spots right. You know what you like? You follow, you 1:34:37.880 --> 1:34:42.360 follow a rabbit hole, uh in in a direction it 1:34:42.479 --> 1:34:45.760 leads you, you know to maybe various scenes that are 1:34:45.800 --> 1:34:49.000 in dialogue with with the one you're into. Um. But 1:34:49.080 --> 1:34:51.760 I don't think there are completest. I think there's just 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:56.080 too much music, right. And there's the thing that's interesting 1:34:56.120 --> 1:34:59.679 about rap is that in some of these these streaming sites, 1:34:59.760 --> 1:35:03.960 some like SoundCloud, like it's affecting the aesthetic right there 1:35:04.000 --> 1:35:08.479 there artists that flocked to specific places that have a 1:35:08.520 --> 1:35:11.800 specific sound, right, and that sound is only growing in 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:16.120 this one ecosystem. Um. And and you know that's that's 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:18.920 now regenerated. A couple of times we had what was 1:35:19.000 --> 1:35:22.280 referred to as SoundCloud rap in is not the same 1:35:22.320 --> 1:35:25.360 thing we we we talk about now when when you 1:35:25.400 --> 1:35:29.519 say SoundCloud rap um. But but you know, the idea 1:35:29.520 --> 1:35:32.599 of a completest, it's it's it's just not I just 1:35:32.680 --> 1:35:34.920 it's just not possible right with the with the amount 1:35:34.920 --> 1:35:38.960 of stuff coming out, Okay for the uninitiated to find 1:35:38.960 --> 1:35:42.360 the difference in status between Atlanta and New York and 1:35:42.520 --> 1:35:45.320 l a rap or any other scene that I might 1:35:45.360 --> 1:35:52.479 have overlooked. So New York right has come back around. 1:35:52.520 --> 1:35:55.680 Actually New York is the birthplace of hip hop, you 1:35:55.720 --> 1:36:01.120 know very much the initial arbiter of you know, authenticity, 1:36:01.120 --> 1:36:05.240 of lyricism, of of beat making. Uh, you know, the 1:36:05.800 --> 1:36:11.760 the legacy is here. Um and and then for the past, 1:36:11.920 --> 1:36:14.680 you know, two and a half three decades, it's been 1:36:14.720 --> 1:36:17.160 what happened to New York rap? Who's the next savior 1:36:17.240 --> 1:36:20.280 of New York rap? Right? You you had a moment, 1:36:19.479 --> 1:36:23.240 you know you you you had a moment with pop 1:36:23.280 --> 1:36:28.479 smoke um and the and the Brooklyn drill stuff. And actually, 1:36:28.720 --> 1:36:31.040 you know, the drill rap coming out of New York 1:36:31.120 --> 1:36:33.479 now is very much at the center of things. Right, 1:36:33.600 --> 1:36:37.400 Even even kids in the deepest undergrounds in Atlanta are 1:36:37.439 --> 1:36:41.280 now making songs that sound like New York drill. But 1:36:41.360 --> 1:36:46.240 of course New York drill comes from Chicago, comes from London. Right, 1:36:46.320 --> 1:36:48.759 This is a sound that traveled all around the world 1:36:48.840 --> 1:36:51.080 before New York sort of took it back and put 1:36:51.080 --> 1:36:56.120 their own spin on it. Um l A obviously vibrant 1:36:56.120 --> 1:36:59.120 through all time, h through through the history of hip 1:36:59.120 --> 1:37:02.040 hop New York versus l A. The sort of you know, 1:37:02.120 --> 1:37:07.240 the traditional rivalry of of nineties rap, you know, or 1:37:07.320 --> 1:37:10.320 you do you like Biggie, do like tupac Um you know, 1:37:10.720 --> 1:37:14.599 a huge renaissance UM in in recent years. You think 1:37:14.640 --> 1:37:16.960 of someone like Kendrick Lamar, one of you know, one 1:37:16.960 --> 1:37:20.400 of the biggest stars of our era, UM and and 1:37:20.439 --> 1:37:23.320 a ton of people under him. You know, someone someone 1:37:23.360 --> 1:37:25.680 like Draco the Ruler really was putting l A on 1:37:25.720 --> 1:37:29.360 the map again before before he was killed a couple 1:37:29.360 --> 1:37:34.240 of years ago. UM. The thing that's amazing now is 1:37:34.320 --> 1:37:39.439 that it's not just Atlanta, New York, Chicago, Detroit, the 1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:44.360 Bay Area, right, Memphis, the sort of traditional hip hop 1:37:44.400 --> 1:37:48.160 strongholds like you have scenes in tiny towns in Florida. 1:37:48.640 --> 1:37:52.439 You have you know, scenes in North Carolina place it 1:37:52.520 --> 1:38:00.840 was notoriously uh barren with of of stars. Um. You know, Arkansas, 1:38:01.560 --> 1:38:05.160 you can find a hip hop see like the proliferation 1:38:05.439 --> 1:38:11.080 of regional hip hop right now and places doing original, amazing, 1:38:11.520 --> 1:38:15.240 extremely distinct things. Milwaukee, you know, places that have never 1:38:15.280 --> 1:38:19.000 traditionally been in the conversation are now as vibrant as 1:38:19.040 --> 1:38:21.840 anywhere else. I think the reason you continue to hear 1:38:21.880 --> 1:38:25.639 about New York, l A, Atlanta, to a lesser extent, Chicago, 1:38:25.920 --> 1:38:29.719 maybe you know, New Orleans, Memphis is that there's an 1:38:29.760 --> 1:38:32.880 infrastructure there, right, and that's that's The other thing that 1:38:33.280 --> 1:38:38.120 you know, the book really tries to. The argument I 1:38:38.160 --> 1:38:40.360 tried to make in the book is that the explosion 1:38:40.400 --> 1:38:44.400 of Atlanta and the streaming era was really prepared for 1:38:44.680 --> 1:38:47.880 in the nineties, right when places when labels like l 1:38:47.920 --> 1:38:51.800 A La Face Ela reads l face maybe face so 1:38:51.800 --> 1:38:55.960 so Deaf Germaine dupre outcasts and the Dungeon family, you know, 1:38:56.320 --> 1:39:00.280 when they were opening studios, they were bringing the record 1:39:00.320 --> 1:39:03.599 business to them, and that lays the groundwork right for 1:39:03.600 --> 1:39:05.680 for there to be places for these kids to go 1:39:05.840 --> 1:39:10.280 to to record music and and make videos and meet executives. 1:39:10.320 --> 1:39:12.200 And it's still not in New York or l A, 1:39:12.280 --> 1:39:15.599 where the where the majors are based. But compared to 1:39:15.960 --> 1:39:18.280 a lot of these smaller regional scenes which you know 1:39:18.439 --> 1:39:21.639 don't end up breaking through on a national level unless 1:39:21.640 --> 1:39:24.519 you're really paying attention. A lot of that is because 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:29.880 because of the physical infrastructure, right, whether it's venues, studios, clubs, 1:39:30.200 --> 1:39:33.639 strip clubs. As we discussed. Um, So I think there's 1:39:33.720 --> 1:39:36.000 music coming out of all out of all of these 1:39:36.080 --> 1:39:39.280 all of these towns, all these these little crevices, um, 1:39:39.320 --> 1:39:49.400 but not all of it is reaching the radio. Okay, 1:39:49.760 --> 1:39:51.720 used to Peo, we have a new scene prior to 1:39:51.760 --> 1:39:56.280 the Internet every three to five years. So have we 1:39:56.400 --> 1:40:00.960 run even though everyone's making music. Ah, we're running out 1:40:00.960 --> 1:40:05.559 of the highway on hip hop and something else will 1:40:05.600 --> 1:40:08.840 come in? Or is there really so much innovation there's 1:40:08.920 --> 1:40:13.800 mills to go. I think people have been you know, 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:18.519 uh predicting the end of hip hop's reign for twenty 1:40:18.520 --> 1:40:22.679 five years now, right, but it's always almost about to end. Um. 1:40:23.080 --> 1:40:29.480 But you know, I think we've seen the slow, sad 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:32.640 death of rock, right, Like I don't I don't know 1:40:32.640 --> 1:40:34.880 about you, but like it's just so hard for me 1:40:34.960 --> 1:40:40.799 to imagine us like guys capturing chart topping rock band 1:40:40.840 --> 1:40:45.519 that's for white guys playing analog instruments. Uh, you know. 1:40:46.040 --> 1:40:50.519 So look, it had a good run. I think I 1:40:50.640 --> 1:40:55.120 bop has proven to be more adaptable, um, at least 1:40:55.160 --> 1:40:58.120 in recent years. Uh. You know. I think when you 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:01.479 think of people who are succeeding in pop or or 1:41:01.640 --> 1:41:04.599 rock or whatever, they're often drawing from a rap tool 1:41:04.680 --> 1:41:08.360 kit right there. They're borrowing, whether it's uh, you know, 1:41:08.640 --> 1:41:12.880 trap high hats and drums or the release schedule. Right, 1:41:12.960 --> 1:41:15.360 the sort of more is more than Morgan Wallans of 1:41:15.400 --> 1:41:19.040 the World putting out thirty track deluxe albums that that 1:41:19.120 --> 1:41:21.200 comes from rap music, you know what I mean? Uh, 1:41:21.600 --> 1:41:26.439 not to mention his his his sound in places, um So, 1:41:26.479 --> 1:41:29.960 I think you know it's been it's been picked over 1:41:30.000 --> 1:41:35.439 for parts. Um. But it's extremely, extremely resilient. Um. And 1:41:35.479 --> 1:41:37.479 I think a lot of that is is about where 1:41:37.479 --> 1:41:41.799 it comes from, right, Like it comes from people who 1:41:41.880 --> 1:41:44.760 are struggling. Right. The basis of hip hop is is 1:41:44.800 --> 1:41:49.439 in economic despair, right Uh. And and it comes from 1:41:49.479 --> 1:41:52.280 necessity and in a lot of places and and in 1:41:52.320 --> 1:41:54.680 a lot of cases. Um So I think like you 1:41:54.720 --> 1:41:57.160 can never you can never count it out because it's 1:41:57.200 --> 1:42:00.920 always it's always regenerating because people need it. So how 1:42:00.960 --> 1:42:02.639 did you get your job at the New York Times? 1:42:04.840 --> 1:42:07.640 You know, I started out writing about music when I 1:42:07.680 --> 1:42:10.320 was a teenager because it was the thing I knew about, right. So, 1:42:10.360 --> 1:42:12.880 I think a lot of people default to music writing 1:42:12.920 --> 1:42:15.040 when they when they first start because it's the thing 1:42:15.120 --> 1:42:17.720 that they're into the most. Um. You feel like you 1:42:17.760 --> 1:42:22.360 have some ownership and expertise um over it. But I 1:42:22.560 --> 1:42:24.360 very quickly realized I didn't want to be a critic 1:42:24.960 --> 1:42:27.280 um and that you know, I grew up in the 1:42:27.360 --> 1:42:30.920 sort of blog Era and P three blogs, Pitchfork, you know, 1:42:31.479 --> 1:42:34.719 the proliferation of music criticism online. And I was like, WHOA, 1:42:34.800 --> 1:42:37.639 Like this seems unforgiving, right, Like all these people are 1:42:37.640 --> 1:42:41.360 writing so many words all the time with you know, 1:42:41.520 --> 1:42:44.680 very little return. Um. All the magazines that I grew 1:42:44.760 --> 1:42:49.400 up with were dying um as as they still are UM. 1:42:49.479 --> 1:42:52.519 And I very quickly decided, you know, I should learn 1:42:52.800 --> 1:42:54.240 if I'm going to write, I should learn how to 1:42:54.280 --> 1:42:57.280 report um. I should learn a practical skill within this. 1:42:57.439 --> 1:42:59.640 I'm not a critic um, even though I have a 1:42:59.680 --> 1:43:03.760 lot of a opinions. Uh So I stopped writing about music. 1:43:03.800 --> 1:43:06.839 Basically I learned how to report um. I was a blogger. 1:43:06.880 --> 1:43:08.760 I was a news blogger for many years. I worked 1:43:08.800 --> 1:43:10.320 at the Village Voice. I worked in York. It was 1:43:10.320 --> 1:43:12.920 a little bit slower. You left Florida, you went to 1:43:13.000 --> 1:43:16.040 college where sure, I moved to New York. I went 1:43:16.080 --> 1:43:18.559 to n Y U to what to greeted in while you, 1:43:19.560 --> 1:43:22.040 uh push you forward in your career, it was four 1:43:22.160 --> 1:43:25.120 years you would just go to college? Oh no, I 1:43:25.120 --> 1:43:27.439 mean I always tell people like I would not have 1:43:27.800 --> 1:43:30.720 the job that I have, especially when I got it. 1:43:30.840 --> 1:43:33.080 You know, was still in my twenties. I would not 1:43:33.280 --> 1:43:36.760 have that opportunity without having got the head start of 1:43:36.840 --> 1:43:40.400 living in New York beginning when I was eighteen. You know, 1:43:40.520 --> 1:43:42.920 I A lot of people moved to New York to 1:43:42.960 --> 1:43:45.559 try to make it in whatever field after college, and 1:43:45.720 --> 1:43:49.519 I was here first. So for me, n y U 1:43:49.760 --> 1:43:55.439 was a very very very expensive path to living in 1:43:55.439 --> 1:43:58.800 the city and having internships. And you know, I took 1:43:58.840 --> 1:44:02.000 on a lot of student loans and you know, fortunate 1:44:02.080 --> 1:44:04.320 enough that my my parents could help me out. UM. 1:44:04.720 --> 1:44:07.360 But I was. I was working from right when I 1:44:07.400 --> 1:44:10.559 got here, right, I was writing for free magazines around 1:44:10.560 --> 1:44:15.040 the city, UM, websites earlier. Some of the earliest music 1:44:15.040 --> 1:44:18.679 reporting I did was for an Australian website that doesn't 1:44:18.680 --> 1:44:23.559 exist anymore. UM or for tiny mixtapes for free. You know, 1:44:23.800 --> 1:44:27.519 I was. I had a blog spot, UM, I had 1:44:27.520 --> 1:44:31.519 a tumbler. I was just trying to practice basically, UM. 1:44:31.600 --> 1:44:35.160 And and as I was finishing school is when I decided, 1:44:35.320 --> 1:44:38.360 you know, music writing seems like a very very very 1:44:38.439 --> 1:44:41.400 unforgiving space. And that's when I branched out. Did you 1:44:41.439 --> 1:44:44.599 study journalism at n y U? I did. I studied 1:44:44.640 --> 1:44:47.800 journalism undergrad although I did like a media criticism track. 1:44:47.880 --> 1:44:50.120 So I was more reading a door now than I 1:44:50.160 --> 1:44:55.080 was out on the street like beat reporting. Okay, and 1:44:55.160 --> 1:44:57.080 it was at the end of your education or did 1:44:57.080 --> 1:45:00.200 you get a master's or anything. No, that was the 1:45:00.280 --> 1:45:02.479 end of my education. I was, you know, as I said, 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:05.000 I was working throughout all of undergrad as much as 1:45:05.000 --> 1:45:07.000 I could. I was starting to get paid here and 1:45:07.040 --> 1:45:12.080 there for freelancing online mostly um. And you know, if 1:45:12.120 --> 1:45:16.840 I've figured I would learn more and not rack up 1:45:16.880 --> 1:45:20.080 any more student debt just doing it as opposed to 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:23.320 go into grad school. So you graduate from n hyle 1:45:23.400 --> 1:45:27.719 U in the next step is graduated into her session. Uh. 1:45:27.760 --> 1:45:32.160 You know, was not a great time to to try 1:45:32.200 --> 1:45:35.000 to be in journalism. Uh. You know, this was this 1:45:35.080 --> 1:45:39.880 was the dark days, especially for for print media US. 1:45:39.920 --> 1:45:42.880 The Internet was taking over and they hadn't really figured 1:45:42.880 --> 1:45:46.559 out what to do yet. But I was really good 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:49.800 at being online. I could, you know, write fast, I 1:45:49.840 --> 1:45:53.640 could spot trends. I knew what was you know, going 1:45:53.680 --> 1:45:57.719 to go whatever proto viral um I And I really 1:45:57.760 --> 1:46:04.120 marketed myself as a sort of ex generation uh internet journalists. 1:46:04.120 --> 1:46:08.120 You know, I could get on Facebook and find somebody 1:46:08.560 --> 1:46:12.240 you know, both quicker than you know a reporter who 1:46:12.280 --> 1:46:15.759 was not native to those spaces. Um and so you 1:46:15.520 --> 1:46:19.240 I tried to really use that right. And it was 1:46:19.280 --> 1:46:23.320 also a real time of like democratization among writers, right 1:46:23.439 --> 1:46:26.719 like Twitter was starting. I was on Twitter very early, 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:30.519 um tumbler, like I said, blog spot, this is a 1:46:30.560 --> 1:46:33.760 way for me to like interface with writers who I admired, 1:46:34.240 --> 1:46:37.240 uh in a in a pretty direct way, right Like 1:46:37.680 --> 1:46:41.080 you could reblog them, you could retweet them, you could 1:46:41.120 --> 1:46:43.640 add commentary, you could chime in, you know. So I 1:46:43.680 --> 1:46:45.880 was I was annoying. I was like I was in 1:46:45.920 --> 1:46:49.320 the face of people who I think, you know, I 1:46:49.600 --> 1:46:54.160 looked up to or whose careers I wanted um and 1:46:54.160 --> 1:46:56.439 and yeah it was it was. It was like a 1:46:56.560 --> 1:47:01.639 much more innocent time I think online Um, the pool 1:47:01.720 --> 1:47:07.120 felt smaller. UM. So I made some headway that way. UM. 1:47:07.200 --> 1:47:09.439 And then, like I said, I became a blogger. Right 1:47:09.640 --> 1:47:12.639 people needed content for their websites. So I was writing 1:47:13.360 --> 1:47:16.400 eight ten posts a day um for the Village Voice, 1:47:16.560 --> 1:47:19.799 first on the weekends while I had a day job. UM. 1:47:19.920 --> 1:47:23.000 Then then as a full time news blogger, um, you know, 1:47:23.080 --> 1:47:26.960 offering metro stories. What was your day job. I worked 1:47:27.000 --> 1:47:29.640 at Life dot com. So Life dot Com was a 1:47:29.720 --> 1:47:34.120 partnership with Getty Images. It was what remained of Life magazine. 1:47:34.560 --> 1:47:37.960 And I ran the homepage photo carousel. So I would, 1:47:38.200 --> 1:47:40.920 you know, with the help of an editor, pick seven 1:47:41.120 --> 1:47:44.320 to ten photos that represented the news of the day, 1:47:44.479 --> 1:47:48.040 something from the archives for an anniversary, something from a war, 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:52.040 tragedy abroad, something more lighthearted, and then I would write 1:47:52.040 --> 1:47:56.160 a you know, two word caption for it. Um. So 1:47:56.200 --> 1:47:58.400 I was running the homepage of Life dot com, which 1:47:58.400 --> 1:48:00.519 I don't know if anybody an I don't know if 1:48:00.520 --> 1:48:02.759 anybody was visiting Life dot com. But we were updating 1:48:02.800 --> 1:48:05.800 the homepage every day, um and then and then on 1:48:05.800 --> 1:48:09.439 the weekends, I was Saturday and Sunday. I had control 1:48:09.479 --> 1:48:13.640 of the Village Voice website for whatever reason, because they 1:48:13.640 --> 1:48:17.639 needed content, you know, they needed traffic. So um, that's 1:48:17.680 --> 1:48:19.840 when I started. You know, I wrote a little bit 1:48:19.880 --> 1:48:22.519 about media. I wrote about politics, I wrote about crime, 1:48:22.640 --> 1:48:27.800 metro stories, um, pop culture. Sometimes they would give me 1:48:27.840 --> 1:48:30.000 the keys to the music blog as well. UM, so 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:33.280 I would keep up with that a little bit. Um 1:48:33.360 --> 1:48:35.120 and yeah, I was just writing a lot. I was 1:48:35.240 --> 1:48:38.519 learning how to how to write quickly, how to write cleanly, 1:48:38.680 --> 1:48:40.760 how to pick up the phone sometimes, how to make 1:48:40.800 --> 1:48:45.040 a little joke, you know. You know, uh, aggregation was 1:48:45.520 --> 1:48:47.920 less dry back then. It was about sort of like 1:48:48.040 --> 1:48:51.759 adding voice. Um. So I was trying to develop developed 1:48:51.840 --> 1:48:54.080 that way. Um and I just got a lot of 1:48:54.120 --> 1:48:56.679 reps in. You know. I was just I was meeting people, 1:48:56.880 --> 1:49:00.360 I was making waves when I could. I was making 1:49:00.400 --> 1:49:02.400 fun of the New York Times for not printing curse 1:49:02.439 --> 1:49:06.080 words from the Village Voice website. You know, just just 1:49:06.080 --> 1:49:11.160 just being pesky, um and working my way up from there. Um. 1:49:11.200 --> 1:49:14.760 So after the Voice, I did this a similar thing 1:49:14.800 --> 1:49:17.280 in New York Magazine. I worked for their Daily Intelligence 1:49:17.360 --> 1:49:24.320 or blog, uh as a news blogger. You know, school shootings, terrorists, attacks, 1:49:24.360 --> 1:49:28.000 covered Benghazi, you know, covered media, covered the New York Times, 1:49:28.000 --> 1:49:31.519 covered Conde nas covered internet culture, just a real grab 1:49:31.560 --> 1:49:33.680 bag of stuff. And I wasn't doing a ton of 1:49:33.720 --> 1:49:35.960 culture reporting. But I always had my eye on that. 1:49:36.240 --> 1:49:39.519 And when I first started contributing here and there for 1:49:39.560 --> 1:49:43.400 the magazine, Um, I would you know, I did a 1:49:43.400 --> 1:49:46.519 piece about Angie Martinez, a New York radio figure. You know, 1:49:46.560 --> 1:49:49.599 I had I still had sort of one eye on 1:49:50.240 --> 1:49:53.679 music and culture because I knew that was my main interest, 1:49:53.800 --> 1:49:56.920 even though I was on the news side of things. UM. 1:49:56.960 --> 1:50:02.919 But I think that ultimately being functional in both worlds 1:50:03.720 --> 1:50:06.960 is what allowed me to get my job at the Times. Right, 1:50:07.040 --> 1:50:10.120 because when when The Times is looking for a music reporter, 1:50:10.400 --> 1:50:13.880 they're looking for a reporter first and foremost. Right. Anybody 1:50:13.920 --> 1:50:17.280 has can have an opinion about music. Um. We have 1:50:17.320 --> 1:50:22.960 no shortage of music critics online, amateur and professional. UM. 1:50:23.000 --> 1:50:25.640 But I think the fact that I knew how to 1:50:25.920 --> 1:50:27.840 do a public record search. I knew how to pick 1:50:27.920 --> 1:50:29.760 up the phone. I knew how to like get on 1:50:29.800 --> 1:50:32.639 the street and and and interview someone, how to track 1:50:32.720 --> 1:50:35.799 someone down, um, how to how to cover breaking news. 1:50:36.040 --> 1:50:40.840 All of that really came into play. So a lot 1:50:40.920 --> 1:50:45.200 of your working career was not actually music focused. You've 1:50:45.280 --> 1:50:48.519 done this, You've written this book. There are people like 1:50:48.600 --> 1:50:51.120 John Perellis who've continue to do with their whole lives 1:50:51.120 --> 1:50:54.360 and at the Times, what do you see going forward 1:50:54.400 --> 1:50:59.720 and what would you dream would go forward. I've gone 1:50:59.720 --> 1:51:01.680 back on fourth on this a lot because I feel like, 1:51:01.880 --> 1:51:04.360 you know, December will be eight years for me on 1:51:04.439 --> 1:51:08.000 the music beat at the Times. On one hand, I 1:51:08.040 --> 1:51:11.160 saw the book as potentially like a capstone to my 1:51:11.400 --> 1:51:13.320 time on the beat. You know, I think I could 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:16.040 cover other things. I could write about other other stuff. 1:51:16.240 --> 1:51:18.120 I don't know how many more Grammy Awards I have 1:51:18.240 --> 1:51:20.720 in me. I don't know how many more rock star 1:51:20.760 --> 1:51:24.320 obituaries or Beyonce album cycles. You know, there's something about 1:51:24.320 --> 1:51:26.920 the music world that you know, as you well know, 1:51:27.040 --> 1:51:30.559 it's very cyclical, uh, covering the same thing every every 1:51:30.600 --> 1:51:34.519 every year, every few years. Um So part of me 1:51:34.600 --> 1:51:37.519 saw the book as like a capstone project um to 1:51:37.600 --> 1:51:40.320 my time on the beat, and at the same time, 1:51:40.360 --> 1:51:43.280 like I feel like I'm I know the music world 1:51:43.360 --> 1:51:46.120 better than I have. You know, the thing about about 1:51:46.160 --> 1:51:48.840 being a beat reporter is you you accrue knowledge. You 1:51:48.840 --> 1:51:52.320 you gain sources, You get how things work, you can 1:51:52.360 --> 1:51:56.240 see things before they happen, you know the patterns. Um. So, 1:51:56.880 --> 1:51:59.080 you know, I think it's all up in the air. Um. 1:51:59.479 --> 1:52:02.040 I love the team that I work with, U Karen 1:52:02.080 --> 1:52:05.160 Gans the music editor John Perellis who we've mentioned chief 1:52:05.200 --> 1:52:09.200 pop critic John Karamonica, you know, uh, the other pop 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:12.960 critic has been a huge mentor friends, champion of me 1:52:13.080 --> 1:52:15.840 since I was very young, helped to bring me in 1:52:15.880 --> 1:52:19.200 here at the Times Ben's serio covers the music business 1:52:19.439 --> 1:52:21.639 for us came it came over from the business section 1:52:21.720 --> 1:52:25.040 works with us in arts. Now. UM, we have a 1:52:25.160 --> 1:52:27.759 very very very tight and I think, you know, pretty 1:52:27.800 --> 1:52:31.160 thorough team for for how few of us there are. UM. 1:52:31.240 --> 1:52:34.080 And I love working with them on a day to 1:52:34.160 --> 1:52:38.400 day basis. UM. But the short answer is, I don't 1:52:38.479 --> 1:52:41.080 I don't know. I think you know. Times likes for 1:52:41.120 --> 1:52:43.080 their reporters to move around, but they also like for 1:52:43.080 --> 1:52:47.640 you to have expertise. So I've I've gained some expertise 1:52:47.680 --> 1:52:50.000 on this beat. Uh. And I don't know how much 1:52:50.040 --> 1:52:52.400 longer I'm going to use it, but hopefully hopefully a 1:52:52.400 --> 1:52:57.120 little while longer at least. Okay, the New York Times itself, Hey, 1:52:57.160 --> 1:53:00.800 you have the vilification denigration from the right of the 1:53:00.800 --> 1:53:05.240 New York Times become a pejorative. Ironically, they use the 1:53:05.240 --> 1:53:09.240 New York Times for all their factual news. Okay. You know, 1:53:09.280 --> 1:53:11.559 if you can tune in, Fox are always saying getting 1:53:11.600 --> 1:53:13.400 all the new they don't do any reporting. They get 1:53:13.439 --> 1:53:15.719 it from the New York Times. So at one level, 1:53:16.160 --> 1:53:20.840 the New York Times it's fact. You know, New York 1:53:20.880 --> 1:53:24.960 Times sets the agenda for America. Brings up the issues. 1:53:25.560 --> 1:53:29.599 But there's the issue of the right wing backlash, and 1:53:29.640 --> 1:53:35.559 there's also concommitantly a smaller footprint. Used to be if 1:53:35.560 --> 1:53:38.800 The New York Times weighed in on something like hip 1:53:38.840 --> 1:53:44.000 hop music, everybody interested in that would read that article. 1:53:44.640 --> 1:53:46.160 And it's not only the New York Times. You know, 1:53:46.200 --> 1:53:48.120 in Los Angeles it's even worse. It was in the 1:53:48.280 --> 1:53:51.160 l A Times everybody. So now people in l A. 1:53:51.240 --> 1:53:55.560 Most people don't see it. So what is your experience 1:53:55.640 --> 1:53:58.120 working for The New York Times said it opens doors 1:53:58.280 --> 1:54:02.840 in Atlanta is generally a good thing or a bad thing. 1:54:03.280 --> 1:54:06.400 And how do you feel writing articles in terms of 1:54:06.439 --> 1:54:09.120 their impact? You feel like you have a big footprint. 1:54:09.200 --> 1:54:11.960 You wish you had a larger footprint. What's going on 1:54:12.000 --> 1:54:16.120 all there? I still think the platform is unparalleled, right, 1:54:16.280 --> 1:54:18.880 it's still the New York Times. Even people who don't 1:54:18.920 --> 1:54:20.760 read The New York Times know what the New York 1:54:20.800 --> 1:54:23.360 Times is. They respect it. You know, there are people 1:54:23.360 --> 1:54:25.839 in Atlanta who only know me as the New York Times. 1:54:26.000 --> 1:54:28.680 You know it's New York Times this year, you know. Uh. 1:54:30.200 --> 1:54:33.480 I think as far as a brand name, like it's 1:54:33.520 --> 1:54:36.440 just in the news business, like it doesn't you know, 1:54:36.880 --> 1:54:41.800 there's there's there's a few other places at this level. Um, 1:54:41.840 --> 1:54:44.880 you know, do I wish more people saw some of 1:54:44.880 --> 1:54:48.640 my stories, especially my more obscure culture stories, my non 1:54:48.720 --> 1:54:52.080 Beyonce Taylor Swift coverage. Sure, but I think we can 1:54:52.080 --> 1:54:55.800 still move the needle. And I think, you know, one 1:54:55.800 --> 1:54:58.360 thing I really love about our team is that we 1:54:58.440 --> 1:55:05.920 don't just cover the big stuff. Really do follow stories, news, passions, subculture. 1:55:06.480 --> 1:55:09.480 We break artists. We often do first interviews that people 1:55:09.520 --> 1:55:11.960 have ever done. You know. Uh, I wrote a big 1:55:11.960 --> 1:55:14.640 feature about a you know, a young woman named Ethel Caine. 1:55:15.320 --> 1:55:19.600 Recently she you know, was living in small town Alabama 1:55:20.240 --> 1:55:23.560 putting out her first album. You know, people came up 1:55:23.600 --> 1:55:25.160 to me at the show and said, I learned about 1:55:25.200 --> 1:55:27.200 this from the New York Times. You know. Like that, 1:55:27.320 --> 1:55:29.720 I think I think we can still have that impact. 1:55:30.320 --> 1:55:32.960 We just have to pick our spots because we have 1:55:33.000 --> 1:55:36.920 such a small staff. Um, you know, especially in music, 1:55:37.600 --> 1:55:40.960 there's so much happening at all times. We can't cover everything. 1:55:41.000 --> 1:55:43.720 I think, you know, and and this goes for the 1:55:43.720 --> 1:55:46.920 paper in general. But I think like we often make 1:55:47.040 --> 1:55:49.680 as much of a point in what we don't cover 1:55:50.040 --> 1:55:54.400 as as in what we do. Um, you know, it's 1:55:54.960 --> 1:56:01.000 it's it's an expert driven section, you know, very critic heavy, 1:56:01.040 --> 1:56:05.360 the art section, movie critics, art critics, classical critics, pop 1:56:05.400 --> 1:56:09.920 critics like I think, you know, we're still hopefully top 1:56:09.920 --> 1:56:11.960 of the heap, uh in a lot of ways, and 1:56:11.960 --> 1:56:14.000 and can set the agenda. You know, you think of 1:56:14.040 --> 1:56:17.120 something like Broadway. Obviously not not a lot of people 1:56:17.120 --> 1:56:19.920 setting that agenda more than the Times. Um. You know, 1:56:19.960 --> 1:56:23.360 I think I think our our our culture covers coverage 1:56:23.440 --> 1:56:26.720 is strong across the board. Um. But look, of course, 1:56:26.840 --> 1:56:30.640 like the fragmentation of of media has has affected us all. 1:56:30.760 --> 1:56:35.360 And you know, if you you put into Google any 1:56:35.360 --> 1:56:38.200 topic of the day that you're going to find dozens 1:56:38.200 --> 1:56:43.520 and dozens and dozens of seo garbage. UM, but I 1:56:43.520 --> 1:56:46.280 think you'll probably still most of the time find the 1:56:46.320 --> 1:56:50.000 best or the definitive or even the first story uh 1:56:50.720 --> 1:56:54.520 from us. Okay, we've been talking to where I've been 1:56:54.560 --> 1:56:58.240 talking to Joe Coscarelli has a new book, Rap Capital 1:56:58.360 --> 1:57:01.840 and at Lanta story. Even if you think you're not 1:57:01.960 --> 1:57:05.360 interested in hip hop or don't know anything, it is 1:57:05.600 --> 1:57:09.200 very insightful in terms of what is the genesis of 1:57:09.280 --> 1:57:11.600 this music? The people were making it, the people who 1:57:11.600 --> 1:57:14.960 are marketing it. So thanks for taking the time to 1:57:15.080 --> 1:57:17.880 talk to me in my audience here, Joe. It's been great. 1:57:18.680 --> 1:57:22.040 I really really really appreciate it. Uh. You know, you 1:57:22.080 --> 1:57:24.040 gave the book such a close read and and in 1:57:24.080 --> 1:57:26.040 a lot of ways, you're my ideal reader. I didn't 1:57:26.040 --> 1:57:29.520 want this to be a book for rapp aficionados, for 1:57:29.560 --> 1:57:32.160 super fans, you know. I wanted I wanted to explain 1:57:32.200 --> 1:57:34.640 this culture in a human way, uh in in a 1:57:34.720 --> 1:57:37.560 way that sort of transcended people who would think they 1:57:37.560 --> 1:57:40.160 would read a book about rapping. Six So, thank you 1:57:40.200 --> 1:57:43.280 so much for for your time. Well you certainly succeeded. 1:57:43.680 --> 1:57:46.160 Until next time. This is Bob left Sex