1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: I was guiding the tour that Sandra Bates, his brother 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: was a part of when he got his look into 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: your precious delver mirror, Spangler. He was perhaps sixteen, part 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: of a high school group. I was going through the 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: history of the glass and had just got to the 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: part you would appreciate, extolling the flawless craftsmanship, the perfection 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: of the glass itself, when the boy raised his hand, um, 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: but what about that black splotch in the upper left 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: hand corner that looks like a mistake. And one of 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: his friends asked him what he meant, so the Bates 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: boy started to tell him, then stopped. He looked at 12 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: the mirror very closely, pushing right up to the red 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: velvet guard rope around the case. Then he looked behind 14 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: him as if what he had seen had been the 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: reflection of someone of someone in black standing at his shoulder. 16 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: It looked like a man, but I couldn't see the face. 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: It's gone now, and that was all. Welcome to Stuff 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, the production of My Heart Radio. Hey, 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is 20 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: part two of our discussion of the mirror. In the 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: last episode, we talked about some of the science of optics, 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: about how mirrors work, why they work. We talked a 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: little bit about mirror psychology and some of the earliest 25 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: mirrors from the archaeological record, specifically obsidian mirrors found associated 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: with the ancient Proto city of Chattahyak in southern Anatolia. Yeah, 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: and that that cold read that we opened the episode with. 28 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: That's an excerpt from Stephen King's Wonderful Haunted Mirror short 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: story The Reaper's Image, collected in short story compilation Skeleton Crew. 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: So I highly recommend anyone who hasn't read that go 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: read that story if you want a creepy mirror story 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: for my money, just as creepy is anything he ever wrote, 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, as creepy as the likes of the Boogeyman 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: or the Jaunt. You know. I was saying in the 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: last episode that I don't think it's an accident that 36 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: there are so many horror movie scenes and ghost stories 37 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: that involve a mirror. There there seems something really special 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: about mirrors that uh takes people's minds to two supernatural 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: and unsettling places more so than other household objects. And 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty obvious why that would be. That 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: there appears to be something alive on the other side 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: of the mirror, and the mirror gives you you know, 43 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: it's not just that you see yourself and you see 44 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: something animate in it, but that you can also see 45 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: what's behind you In a mirror. Yeah, you it allows 46 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: you to see things that you cannot directly see. Uh. 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: And that's always been one of the attractive aspects of 48 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: mirrors in everything from I mean the very practical usage 49 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: of like we mentioned mirrors utilized by the roadside and 50 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: it turns and whatnot so you can see who's coming 51 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: or or even in in corridor, so you can see 52 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: who is around the corner. Uh. Two other things like 53 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: those those ridiculous sunglasses that have little mirrors in them 54 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: so you can see behind you. Oh. I got some 55 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: of those when I was a kid, and I thought 56 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: that was the coolest thing ever. Yeah, we're driving a car. 57 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: Just think about it, the very act of driving a 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: car were utilizing at least three different mirrors at all times. 59 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's just every day we take it 60 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: for granted. But it's uh, it's kind of strange when 61 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: you think about it, though. Of course, at least the 62 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: mirrors warned you that that reality and reflection do not 63 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: necessarily match up. On Oh, that's why if like every 64 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: mirror came with a disclaimer the way the rear view 65 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: mirrors on a car do yeah yeah, does not reflect reality. 66 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: But as a segue to one of the first things 67 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about today, it's worth noting that 68 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: prehistoric Anatolia is not the only place, uh, in the 69 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: ancient world where there was the use of obsidian mirrors. 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: That's right. Evidence of mirrors and especially obsidian mirrors in 71 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: Mesoamerica date back at least as far as six b C. 72 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: There there might be some earlier dates, but I think 73 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: that was the earliest state I was I was coming 74 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: across in my research, and so they were used by 75 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: the Maya, they were used by the Aztecs. And when 76 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: they were used by the Aztecs, particularly by Aztec priests, 77 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: they were used in various scrying rituals in the worship 78 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: of of the god that tez cat li PoCA, whose 79 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: name actually means Lord of the smoking mirror. So there 80 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: were black mirrors used by his priests. Uh, and he 81 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: has this just overall connection to dark volcanic obsidian. Yeah. 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: And so scrying is a practice that's found in cultures 83 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: and religions all throughout the world. The archetype example you 84 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: see is gazing into the crystal ball, right, Um. But 85 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: but scrying really refers to any form of divination, prophecy, 86 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: or revelation that involves gazing into some kind of medium, 87 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: often a reflective medium, such as a mirror or a 88 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: crystal ball. But I would say one of the things 89 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: about Tess Catlet PoCA is that like he is really 90 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: the mirror deity par excellence, because his name means smoking mirror. Like, like, 91 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: that's how closely connected he is with this. Um. He's 92 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: he's a fascinating character. I think we've we've we've mentioned 93 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: him a few different times on the podcast. He's said 94 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: to have lost his right foot in a battle against 95 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: an earth monster, and as such, he's often depicted with 96 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: a prosthesis of gleaming obsidian that may sometimes resemble a serpent. 97 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: And I decided to go a little deeper for this episode. 98 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: So I was reading about him in a book titled 99 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: Tess Catlet Polca Trickster and Supreme Deity, edited by Aztec 100 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: scholar Elizabeth Bacuadano, and in this book, in a chapter 101 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: titled enemy Brothers were Divine Twins, author Gillim Oliver points 102 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: out that tes Catlet Polca was associated quote with untamed 103 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: space and night, though his name is composed of two 104 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: cultural elements smoke, which comes from the epitome of cultural 105 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: creations fire and the mirror undoubtedly one of the manufactured 106 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: objects whose creation is the most exciting. And now this 107 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: is in comparison to the animal elements of his rival, 108 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: quetzal Kotal, who we discussed and at least I think 109 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: we did a couple of episodes on the on the 110 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: plume de serpent, did we not? Oh? Absolutely, But I 111 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: don't think I really understood this distinction before. So one 112 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: way of thinking about them is that Ketzel Caudal embodies 113 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: certain aspects of nature, whereas test Ca PoCA embodies something 114 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: about technology or human artifice. Yeah, yeah, I believe that's 115 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: the That's the point here is that quetzal Kotal, you know, 116 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: has these natural animal elements that are his makeup, whereas 117 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: test cat Polka is essentially a lord of artifact and invention. 118 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: So yes, you know that smoke is part of fire, 119 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: and fire does not require humans. Obsidian um occurs on 120 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: its own, but of course both of these are brought 121 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: to new heights by by human invention, you know, the 122 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: polishing of the obsidy and to make a mirror, the 123 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: utilization of of smoke and fire in in other human activities. 124 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: So you could you could look at him as a 125 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: god of technology. I know this is not intended by 126 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: the people who created these ancient artworks, but some depictions 127 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: of test Catlipoca do look like a robot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 128 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: sometimes that art does have that that kind of appearance 129 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: to it. Now, according to Michael E. Smith in UM 130 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: in that author's chapter in this book UH the Archaeology 131 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: of test Catlipoca, various items are associated with with the 132 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: cult of this deity. The most important are altars, ceramic flutes, 133 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: and of course obsidian mirrors. And the mirror is likely 134 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: the most important because on one hand, again it's part 135 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: of the god's name and identity, it's the substance of 136 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: his prosthesis, and numerous cult items and costume elements associated 137 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: with him were obsidian mirrors. UM now mirrors were sometimes 138 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: associated with other Aztec gods, but apparently circular obsidian mirrors 139 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: were just central to the worship and identity of Testcatlet PoCA. Now. 140 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: One of the challenges to archaeological study of this mirrors, though, 141 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: is that, as as Smith points out, virtually none of 142 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: them were found under modern archaeological standards. Um and and 143 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: this becomes obvious when you consider dr ds as tech 144 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: obsidian mirror, which is often brought up as like the 145 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: most one of the most famous examples of this, which 146 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: has resided in England since at least the late sixteenth century, 147 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: and during this time it's traveled to other museums a bit, 148 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: and I think has come as far as the United 149 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: States on maybe two different occasions, but it's certainly never 150 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: returned to Mexico. So a lot of these mirrors have 151 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: been in circulation for a while and we're uncovered centuries ago. 152 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: Now are you aware of is anything actually known about 153 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: the exact provenance of of John D's mirror, like like 154 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: how by what route it came to him? Um? There is. 155 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: I have looked at the scholarship on that before. Yeah, 156 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: So I guess a couple of things to keep in 157 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,439 Speaker 1: mind about the mirrors. So, first of all, uh they are. 158 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: You also find rectangular obsidian mirrors in some collections that 159 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: are tied to um To Aztec traditions, but some experts 160 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: argue that these may not be pre Hispanic, they may 161 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: be postconquest artifacts. Um. The mirrors that you see in 162 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: the various codices are are all circular, so that seems 163 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: to be a distinction some of the experts are making 164 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: now that the as for the magical speculum as it's 165 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: called of Dr d Um, that does appear. I think 166 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: all the experts agree, like that isn't that isn't an 167 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: actual az Tech artifact. UM. I think the previous owner 168 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: prior to d is known. I can't remember how far back, 169 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: like the lineage of ownership is known. Um. But one 170 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: of the things about a lot of these obsidian artifacts 171 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: is you can you can trace them back to where 172 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: they came from. So so it's it's with a high 173 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: degree of certainty that this particular artifact is traced back 174 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: to Mexico. Is that tracing by geological means? Yes, Yes, 175 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: it's it's my understanding that you can geologically trace the 176 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: obsidian to it to at least a certain degree. Now, 177 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that Smith points out about the 178 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: magical speculum of Dr D, which is where it's worth 179 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: looking up a picture of this. I think I've described 180 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: it before on the show. If you didn't know what 181 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: you're looking at, you might think it was a component 182 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: for like an ikea coffee table. It's not. It's not 183 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: something that instantly looks ancient. It's um. It's it's very 184 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: plain and um and functional in many respects. It is 185 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: a circular mirror with kind of a notch at the 186 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: top with a hole in it. And apparently Smith points 187 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: out that the whole at the top of that artifact 188 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: is likely there so it could be worn as an 189 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: amulet across the chest, which is something that we see 190 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: in the codiceas so, there seemed to have largely been 191 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: two standardized types or sizes of these mirrors. There was 192 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: one size that was intended to adorn a sculpture, and 193 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: then others like this, like the one that came into 194 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: Dr D's possession, that was worn as an ornament by priests. 195 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: But it's also possible that size norms changed over time. Now, 196 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: Nicholas J. Saunders and Elizabeth Bacuadano right. Quote. These reflective 197 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: devices were powerfully ambiguous, not least because they shone with 198 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: a quote unquote dark light. They partook of what has 199 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: been called a pen Amerindian quote aesthetic of brilliance, which 200 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: accorded sacredness and power to a multimedia assemblage of shiny objects. 201 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: The material metaphors of access to and control of the 202 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: glowing spirit realm from wind, status and political power flowed. 203 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: And they also write that quote a presence of absence 204 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: defines the ambivalent nature of Testcatlet PoCA, the supreme deity 205 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: of the late post classic az Tech pantheon. In the 206 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: dark ephemeral reflection of his obsidian mirror, in the transient 207 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: sound of his ceramic flower pipes, lies the sensuous nature 208 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: of a god who mediates materiality and invisible ability with 209 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: omniscience and omnipresence. So a couple of years ago, I 210 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: actually was lucky enough to see uh John D's mirror 211 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: uh the Azteca City and mirror from his collection in 212 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: the British Museum. It's on display there among the collection 213 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: of Dr D's treasures, and I recall, yeah, looking into it, 214 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: you can get a rather unsettling feeling where you you 215 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: could imagine how a person could could feel the power 216 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: from the other realm flowing out from this this sort 217 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: of conduit or gateway. Yeah. Yeah, this mirror is I 218 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: think I've mentioned before. I may have seen it when 219 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: I visited the British Museum, but I did not know 220 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: about its existence, so I have no specific memory of 221 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: of seeing it. And again, if you don't know what 222 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: you're looking for, or you're happy to sort of breeze 223 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: past it, you might not pay that much attention to it. 224 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's part of the British Museum collection. Again, 225 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: has traveled a little bit, but but not I don't 226 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: think extensively. So if you visit the British Museum today, 227 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: there's a good chance you'll be able to find it. 228 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: They also have it on their website. Now I want 229 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: to mention one more thing from that book. Um, there's 230 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: a chapter in there by Susan mill Breath titled the 231 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: Maya Lord of the Smoking Mirror. And this this d 232 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: paper deals primarily with cal Will, the Maya form of 233 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: this same deity, but in it the author writes that 234 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: the mirrors were indeed used in acts of divination. Priests 235 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: and magicians would use the mirrors to gaze into the future. 236 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,599 Speaker 1: Quote his obsidian mirror appears in an Aztec account describing 237 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: a mirror or test cattle that showed the quote stars 238 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: and fire drill a constellation even though it was daytime, 239 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: and then revealed an omen forecasting the Spanish invasion. And 240 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: so they point out that that the mirrors Roulan divination 241 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: may be linked with astrology because test Catlet PoCA had 242 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: numerous astronomical avatars. So it's interesting we see this idea 243 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: of of reflections in the mirror. It's you know, it's 244 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: it's clearly associated with reflections of us, but also reflections 245 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: of of the cosmos. I think that's that's fascinating. And 246 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: then you get into the idea of the darkness of 247 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: the city and I guess being like the darkness betwixt 248 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: the stars. Oh yeah, thank Now, as we talked about 249 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: in the last episode, there were also obsidian mirrors on 250 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: the other side of the Atlantic in the ancient world. 251 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: Is the earliest mirror artifacts known of are probably these 252 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: obsidian discs from prehistoric Anatolia. But I was wondering, Okay, 253 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: where did mirror technology go after that. So I was 254 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: turning back to a sort of catalog of different early 255 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: mirror finds that are listed in a paper by J. M. 256 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: Enoch in the Journal of Optometry and Vision Science in 257 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: two thousand six called History of Mirrors dating back eight 258 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: thousand years and Enoch notes a few types of artifacts 259 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: from ancient Egypt that have been interpreted as possible mirrors, 260 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: but but are not quite certain. For example, the English 261 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: egyptologist Flinder's Petree suggested that stone palette in pre dynastic 262 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: Egypt could have been turned into mirrors by wetting them. 263 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: So you might have an artifact that just looks like 264 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: kind of a flat stone disc, and that by wetting 265 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: this disc you could turn it into a rough mirror. Also, 266 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: egyptologist Christine lily Quist argued that ancient Egyptians may have 267 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: used ceramic bowls that could be filled with water to 268 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: function as mirrors inside the home. And lily Quist sites 269 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: findings at Elbadari, which is a site along the Nile 270 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: and Upper Egypt with a number of artifacts from predynastic times. 271 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: I think this is one of the earliest sites that 272 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: shows evidence of agriculture in in predynastic Egypt. Um, but 273 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: that around Elbadari there is possible evidence of early mirrors, 274 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: including quote a slab of selenite with traces of wood 275 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: as a possible frame um and a slate disc also 276 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: a piece of reflective micah pierced with a whole a 277 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: possible wall attachment. But moving on from here you start 278 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: to get signs of metal mirrors, which are obviously you 279 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: can just imagine, are going to have a very different 280 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: quality than say a wet stone would. So by the 281 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: time period of roughly the fourth millennium BC, so four 282 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: thousand to three thousand b C, there is some evidence 283 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: of metal mirrors in the ancient Near East, and this 284 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: includes small copper discs possibly used as mirrors that are 285 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: found in southern Mesopotamia in what is today Iraq, for example, 286 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: around the ancient city state of Or. And when I 287 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: was looking around at these examples, it seems perhaps most 288 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: or maybe even all of the mirrors recovered from around 289 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: three thousand BC in Mesopotamia were copper mirrors. But by 290 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: the third millennium b C and moving forward, there are 291 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: a number of examples of metal mirrors found in Egypt, 292 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: usually copper early on and then as as the years 293 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: go on, there are more copper alloys and these would 294 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: fall into the classification of bronze mirrors. But also by 295 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: the third mill in the MBC, there are not only 296 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,959 Speaker 1: these scant artifacts, but actually records of mirrors. So this 297 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: means mirrors evoked as a concept in texts and in 298 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: artistic imagery. So Enoch includes some examples of ancient Egyptian 299 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: artwork from tombs that appears to show mirrors. Uh. For example, Rob, 300 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: I've got one you can look at here. This is 301 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: figure three in front of you, but I'll try to 302 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 1: describe it is detail from the Tomb of Mirror Ruca 303 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: at Sakara, and so this would have been the sixth 304 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: dynasty of Egypt roughly b C. And what you see 305 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: is sort of a line of figures depicted in that 306 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: profile style. UM, and they're they're doing, they're they're holding 307 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: up objects at each other. And I think this may 308 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: be showing a sequence of the same figures interacting across time. 309 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: But one of the objects they're holding up it looks like, well, 310 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: what is that? Is that a ping pong paddle? No, 311 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: it's probably a mirror. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see it. 312 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean they're they're holding it up to their faces 313 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: as if looking at their own reflection and way way 314 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: back into history. Uh, it's clear that mirrors contain not 315 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: just their practical functions they're used in cosmetics and stuff, 316 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: but also their religious significance. Uh. Enoch notes that is 317 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: extremely common across all of these cultures for mirrors to 318 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: be associated with some kind of supernatural power, to be 319 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: associated with the gods, or to have some kind of 320 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: use in divination or or association with the soul. He writes, quote, 321 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 1: they served as symbols of the sun or moon, and 322 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: may have been carried on tops of standards a one 323 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: sided flattened disc symbolized as setting or rising sun. Mirrors 324 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: were sometimes used to symbolize the inner self. They also 325 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: provided a way to look back. Yeah, this is all 326 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: especially interesting considering the ancient Egyptians, who of course were 327 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: very solar oriented culture. Uh So anything that reflects sunlight 328 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: is going to potentially have some real value. Uh. I 329 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: think we've discussed in the show before about the you know, 330 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: the idea that the the Great Pyramids were once um 331 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: uh covered in a more reflective surface so that they 332 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: would have they would have you know, wouldn't have been 333 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: like a mirror, but they would have definitely reflected the 334 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: brilliance of the sun during the day. Yeah, it would 335 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: have been amazing to be alive at a time when 336 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: you could have seen that. Yeah. Um. But hey, so 337 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: there's another thing I came across while u while reading 338 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: up for this episode that I really wanted to do 339 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: a digression on that has less to do with the 340 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: technology of a mirror, but I think actually does tie 341 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: into maybe a lot of these, uh, these religious uses 342 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: of mirrors that we see throughout the ages. And this 343 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: is an effective mirrors that has come to be known 344 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: as the strange face in the mirror effect. Yeah, and 345 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: this is this is great because it's it's one that 346 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: we can certainly take all of this and apply it 347 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: to the mirrors that surround us today. But then if 348 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about these various older variations of the mirror 349 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: that are maybe smoky or darker, um, smaller, um, it 350 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: allows even more room for ambiguity. Yeah. So, while back, 351 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: I did an episode of The Artifact that I called 352 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: the Psychedelic Blindfold. I don't know if you ever got 353 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: a chance to listen to this one, Rob, but it 354 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: was one that I've been thinking about a lot ever since. 355 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: And in fact, though it's called the psychedelic blindfold, there's 356 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: actually nothing special about the blindfold that was used in 357 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: the study except that it basically blocks out all light. 358 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: What was really special about this research was the amount 359 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,199 Speaker 1: of time that the blindfold was worn. The basic finding 360 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: in this study, again, this was published in the year 361 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: two thousand four in the Journal of neuro Optimology. The 362 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: basic finding was that subjects who were blindfolded for days 363 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: at a time started to have elaborate visual hallucinations. And 364 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: the most interesting part to me was not just that 365 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: they were hallucinating, but that sometimes they started to visually 366 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: hallucinate roughly accurate per scepts based on other senses, so 367 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: that might include perceptions of their own limbs or objects 368 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: that they were manipulating, like a picture of water on 369 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: a table, or other people in the room with them. 370 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: That they would get pictures of things that we're actually there, 371 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: And this to me raises interesting questions about what site 372 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: really is. What if you are seeing things in your 373 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: brain and those things are not whole cloth fabrications, but 374 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: roughly accurate perceptions of real objects around you, except they're 375 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: not based on light received through the eyes, but based 376 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: on other senses and cognition. So maybe your appropriate reception, 377 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, your internal sense of where the rest of 378 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: your body is causes you to hallucinate visual imagery of 379 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: your body parts in the right places, or your ability 380 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 1: to feel objects around you, like a picture of water 381 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: in your hand causes you to hallucinate that picture, except 382 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: it's basically an accurate visual stimulus you're getting is just 383 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: not based on light. Yeah, this is a fascinating area 384 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: of contemplation. It gets back to something we've we've we've 385 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: we've touched on before, the idea that we think of ourselves. 386 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: We we often use technological metaphors. We often think about 387 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: our visual perception as being that of a like a 388 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: security camera. It is it is filming the world and 389 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: preserving that that site data as it is. But of 390 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: course the more we look at it, the more we 391 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: realize that this is not the case. We have we 392 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,239 Speaker 1: certainly have have visual data coming in, but then we 393 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: have the we have other senses involved, we have memory employed, 394 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: and there's a great deal of filling in the blanks 395 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: and the sort of cultivation of an internal model of reality. 396 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: I think that's very well put, and that's really going 397 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: to be relevant to what I'm about to bring up. 398 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: So all that was preamble to a really interesting series 399 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: of studies that I was just getting into about the 400 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: potential psychedelic power of mirrors, much like the potential psychedelic 401 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: power of a blindfold. Um And and another thing about 402 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 1: this that's interesting is that there are a number of 403 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 1: urban legends and folk beliefs about supernatural apparitions that will 404 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: manifest in a mirror under the right conditions. One example 405 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: I came across I was reading an article in Scientific American. 406 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: One of the authors of this article was named Susannah 407 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: Martinez Conde, and she talks about how thirty years ago, 408 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: when she was a child growing up in Spain, she 409 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: said that there was a there was like a superstition 410 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: that anyone could see the devil's face, and what you 411 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: had to do to see the devil's face was stare 412 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: at your own face in the mirror at the stroke 413 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: of midnight, and then you would say the devil's name 414 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: when when midnight tolls, and then you would see the 415 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: devil in the mirror. Yeah, this is kind of the 416 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: with the Bloody Marry effect. You could go right. And 417 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: I gotta admit, I actually remember when I was a child, 418 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: I for a I don't know how long this went on. 419 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: For some period of time, I got absolutely terrified about 420 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: Bloody Mary after a kid that I was. I was 421 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: at some summer camp and some guy was telling me 422 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: about Bloody Mary and uh. And after hearing that, I 423 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: remember I was just like petrified of being alone in 424 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: a room with the mirror. I remember this too. Yeah. 425 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this recently because after we recorded 426 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: the first episode, I was telling my son, who just 427 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: who just entered fourth grade. I was telling him about 428 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: the fish and uh and the Borheys short story about 429 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: the creatures in the mirror, and um. He wasn't terrified 430 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: or anything of it, but he would started asking questions. 431 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: And then I started thinking back to Bloody Mary and 432 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: so far. They're like, oh, wow, I need to be 433 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: careful here. He's just the right age where I needed. 434 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: I need to make sure I cultivate his imagination just 435 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: so so that he's not afraid of mirrors. Well, you know, 436 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: it's funny, like I've heard a million ghost stories by 437 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: that point. Why was that the one that that got 438 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: the hooks in me and and other ones weren't. It's 439 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: a great question. I mean, on one hand, I think 440 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: I think part of it is that the mirror is 441 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: at the center of it, and the mirror is poorly 442 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: understood by all of us. It is this weirdness that 443 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: we just kind of stop asking questions about. And then 444 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: if you you add something to the scenario, uh, you 445 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,479 Speaker 1: can easily bring that spookiness back into the forefront, you know. 446 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: But then also with with a lot of like the 447 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: bloody Mary type stuff we tend to and it involves 448 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: not just a mirror, but also low light or a 449 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: flickering candle light, which is just going to augment the 450 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: various effects that we're talking about here. Um, you can 451 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: already be weird enough to stare at your own face 452 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: in the mirror for you know, a minute at a time, 453 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: but add in flickering and alterating candle light, throw in 454 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: low light as well as this this script of the 455 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: supernatural layered on top of everything, and yeah, I can 456 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: start feeling a little freaky. It's funny how much what 457 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: you say is is conforming to the study I'm about 458 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: to bring up. Uh, though I should report by the way, 459 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: that um Susanna Martinez Conde. She says in the article 460 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: that when she tried to see the devil's face in 461 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: the mirror as a child, nothing happened. So you know, 462 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: you win some, you lose some. You gotta play a 463 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: little less more in the background too, I think right. 464 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: But but given certain recent psychological research, I think there 465 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: could be some plausible reasons to assume that some legends 466 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: like this of seeing faces in the mirror, seeing the devil, 467 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: or seeing bloody Mary are based on real experiences that 468 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: some people had, because you can get yourself into a 469 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: very vulnerable state when you're staring into a mirror, especially 470 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: with in low light conditions. And then on top of that, 471 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: there are apparently special effects of staring at a face 472 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: in a mirror that manifest as a very common predisposition 473 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: to hallucinate. As far as I can tell, this effect 474 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: was first observed by a psychologist named Giovanni Caputo of 475 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: the University of Urbino, Italy and published in a report 476 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: in the journal Reception in two thousand ten. The paper 477 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: was called Strange Face in the Mirror Illusion. So in 478 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: this study, Capputo recruited fifty subjects who were all in 479 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: their twenties, a range of one to twenty nine years 480 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: of age, and they didn't know what was being tested. 481 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: What happened is Caputo would place them in a dimly 482 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: lit room, so it was illuminated only by a twenty 483 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: five what incandescent light that was placed on the floor 484 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 1: behind the subject, and then they were asked to stare 485 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: into a mirror that was about zero point four meters 486 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: which is about one point three feet in front of them, 487 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: and then just to keep looking at their own reflection, 488 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: staring into their own face for ten minutes. That's it, 489 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: no drugs, no other alterations of consciousness, just a dimly 490 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: lit room, staring in your at your own face in 491 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: a mirror for ten minutes. And then afterwards they were 492 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: asked to write about the experience and report anything that 493 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: they remembered about it. And the results reported by Caputo 494 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: are extremely striking. The majority of sub jects reported at 495 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: least one of a number of different kinds of broad 496 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: uh perceptually strange, or even hallucinatory experiences. So to read 497 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: from the study quote descriptions differed greatly across individuals and 498 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 1: included a huge deformations of one's own face, reported by 499 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: sixty six percent of the fifty participants. Be a parents 500 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: face with traits changed eighteen percent, of whom eight percent 501 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: were still alive and ten percent were deceased. See an 502 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: unknown person twenty eight percent, d an archetypal face such 503 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: as that of an old woman, a child, or a 504 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: portrait of an ancestory eight percent. E an animal face 505 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: such as that of a cat, pig, or lion eighteen percent, 506 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: or f fantastical and monstrous beings forty eight percent. So 507 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: like a lot of people get monsters in there. Yeah, uh, 508 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: it's it's impressive and and really not surprising at all. 509 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: I think if anyone has has spent any amount of time, 510 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we've all spent time looking at ourselves in 511 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: the mirror, I think enough to realize, Yeah, the more 512 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: that you look at yourself, the weirder you look. Um, 513 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: and most of us will leave that situation before you 514 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: get to the monster scenario. You know, you're more likely 515 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: to check out when you start seeing, uh, when you 516 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: start noticing resemblance to parents and so forth, and you're like, 517 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: I think I've looked at my mirror enough. I think 518 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: I checked on what I came here to check on. 519 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm going to go do something else, but ten minutes, 520 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: that's that's some serious time. And Caputo also reported that 521 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: there were effects beyond the purely visual distortions and hallucinations. 522 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: There were also sort of conceptual disruptions and and strong 523 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: emotional reactions and feelings that people experienced staring into the 524 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: mirror like this, again, to read from his results quote, 525 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: the participants reported that apparition of new faces in the 526 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: mirror caused sensations of otherness when the new face appeared 527 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: to be that of another unknown, own person or strange 528 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: other looking at him or her from within or beyond 529 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: the mirror. All fifty participants experienced some form of this 530 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: dissociative identity effect at least for some apparition of strange faces, 531 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: and often reported strong emotional responses in these instances. And 532 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: I thought this was interesting. So it's saying that like, 533 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: even for people who didn't note any visual distortions or 534 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: visual hallucinations, they did report at least some kind of 535 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: feeling of dissociation with the face that was looking back 536 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: at them. But coming back to the results quote, for example, 537 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: some observers felt that the other watched them with an 538 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: enigmatic expression, a situation that they found astonishing. Some participants 539 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: saw a malign expression on the other face and became anxious. 540 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: Other participants felt that the other was smiling or cheerful 541 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: and experienced positive emotions in response. The apparition of deceased 542 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: parents or of archetypal portraits produced feelings of silent query. 543 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: Apparition of monstrous beings produced fear or disturbance. Dynamic deformations 544 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: of the new faces, like pulsations or shrinking, smiling, or grinding, 545 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: produced an overall sense of inquietude for things out of control. 546 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: So these kinds of emotional reactions I think makes sense, 547 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: especially given that that so many people were seeing some 548 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: kind of visual disturbance or hallucination. But to come back 549 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: to the visual perceptions themselves, what could possibly explain this 550 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: bizarre effect. You look at your own face over time 551 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: and it starts to kind of transform into other things. 552 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: You see other people's faces. Maybe you see a cat 553 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: face or a monster face. Maybe you become a minotaur, 554 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: maybe you become your grandfather. Uh, you know, this is 555 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: this is strange, So like, what could be leading to this? 556 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: So Caputo offers a few ideas. First of all, the 557 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: disappearance or attenuation of face traits could very well be 558 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: caused by what's known as truck slur fading. Uh. This 559 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 1: is a name for a very well documented optical illusion 560 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: that goes like this. Okay, if you if you fixate 561 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: your gaze on a particular point without moving it, unchanging 562 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: visual stimuli in the periphery will tend to fade away 563 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: the longer you stare at that one fixation point. This 564 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: was observed by the eighteenth century English physician and poly 565 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: math Erasmus Darwin, who was the grandfather of Charles Darwin. 566 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: But it gets its name after being uh discussed by 567 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: a Swiss physician named Ignace Paul Vital trok Sler in 568 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds who did some experiments with patches 569 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 1: of color against a screen or a wall. But if 570 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: you want to try this out for yourself, there are 571 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: tons of you know, they're the little like stimulus images 572 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: that you can look up on the internet. Just google 573 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: trok slur fading or trucks Sler illusion t r O 574 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: x L E r H and you should be able 575 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: to find something you can try out. Rob. But I 576 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: quite easily experienced this illusion. Why I've got one. I'm 577 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: looking at here that is a really menacing, grinning cheshire 578 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: cat face, but it's got an X right in the 579 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: middle of it. And if I stare at the X, 580 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: I think, really, it only takes about five seconds before 581 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: the colors of the cat face fade to almost nothing. Alright, 582 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: staring at the X on its nose intently, Yeah, yeah, 583 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: it does. Like the pupils disappear for me pretty quickly. 584 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: I'd say for me, after about five or six seconds 585 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: of intense staring at the X, the face is gone, 586 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: but the teeth remain. I only see the grin, and 587 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: after about like five to ten minutes, it's telling me 588 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,239 Speaker 1: to go out and remove traffic signs. So it's it's 589 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: a haunting face to stare into too much. I feel great, 590 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: I've got a brand new religion. I'm about to go 591 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: buy some meal mix in bulk. Well, the cheshire cat. 592 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: I think we discussed this a little bit in our 593 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: MEDUSA episodes, like this is a this is a gorgon, 594 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: This is a gorgon's face that we're staring at here. 595 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: It's a it's just a a a repackaging of the 596 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: same concept. I mean, not not that that has anything 597 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: to do with the optical fact going on here, but 598 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: at anyway, thank thank so trucks. Alert fading is a 599 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: specific example of a broader phenomenon of neural adaptation, the 600 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: desensitization of sensory neurons to unchanging stimuli. And you can 601 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: think of other examples that are were there similar effects 602 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: of this and maybe tactile feelings. Like you know, if 603 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: you put a finger on part of your arm, you 604 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: will feel the touch of your own finger when it 605 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: first lands there. But if you just leave it there, 606 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: you kind of stop noticing it. Uh. Similar thing with smells, 607 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of stimuli. If you're just getting 608 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: the same sense stimulus over and over again without changing, 609 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: often it will fade into nothing in your awareness. Right. 610 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: It's like, well, like with the smell, for example, the 611 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: idea is you're being alerted to this smell because something 612 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: about it is important, like maybe it's potentially dangerous, etcetera. 613 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: But if you're around it enough, it's like it's like 614 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: the brain is decided, Okay, he gets the point. We've 615 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: sent the memo, We've done all we can do. We 616 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,879 Speaker 1: just have to trust that he is he either knows 617 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: that this uh, this particular smell is is not poison 618 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: or he's done something about it. Right, And so that 619 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: does seem to be an explanation for what's going on 620 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: generally with truck slur fading. You you stare at a 621 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: single point and then other things in the visual field. 622 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: If you're really staring intently, you're not moving your eyes around, 623 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: you're not blinking. Those other colors, those other images, they 624 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: just kind of like fade away over time you you're 625 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: you get used to them, and then they're just going. 626 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: But this is not the full answer to the question, right, 627 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: Because so Caputo's interpretive section continues to say that truck 628 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: slur fading might be a good explanation for why, like 629 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: outer features of the face might seem to fade or 630 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: disappear or possibly distort while we're fixated on a central point, 631 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: like if you're staring at your own nose or staring 632 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: at your own eyes very intently. But a lot of 633 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: the subjects reported not only fading or distortion of the 634 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: outer parts of the face, but the sensation of totally 635 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: new visual traits, such as you know, like different features 636 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,720 Speaker 1: or animal faces monster faces the faces of other people, 637 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: and this part is more difficult to explain. Caputo and 638 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: and other co authors have done subsequent research following up 639 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: on the the strange face in the mirror effect, but 640 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: the exact cause of these perceptions does remain somewhat obscure, 641 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: at least as far as I can tell. A part 642 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: of the explanation could have to do with the long 643 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: gazing process causing a disruption of the mental faculty that 644 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: normally combines individual face traits like nose, eyes, lips, and 645 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: so forth into a unified experience of a face. You know, 646 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 1: that's something you probably know from experience that, like, when 647 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: you see a face, you tend to see it as 648 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: a face, not as the individual parts of a face, right, 649 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: And and this is something though, I find when I 650 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: am just staring at another person's face for too long, 651 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: I stop seeing it as a unified face, and I 652 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: start it's kind of like it's almost like you're seeing 653 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: just parts of the face floating around, you know, like 654 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: you're no longer seeing the face altogether. And it's a 655 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: weird feeling. And I have to look away from the 656 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: person's face at that point. Oh you ever, like you 657 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: gaze at somebody's eyes too long, and you maybe somebody 658 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: who you find beautiful and you love their beautiful eyes, 659 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: and then you look too long and those eyes become eyeballs, 660 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: and then you see them as organs, right, and this 661 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: is you know, the sclera, and they've got some kind 662 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: of jelly inside them. And then you're like, oh, oh, no, 663 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: I did it, I did the I did the bad. Yeah, 664 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: and then you see the skull beneath the flesh and 665 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 1: it's all done. But to read from Caputo's interpretation of 666 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: of what could possibly be causing the again, it's it's 667 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: not really fully understood. But in his original study in 668 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: two thousand ten, Caputo says, quote this long term viewing 669 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: of face stimuli of marginal strength. I remember. That's especially 670 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: because the low light conditions right may generate a haphazard 671 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: assembly of face traits that generate deformed faces or scrambled faces. 672 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: Frequent apparitions of strange faces of known or unknown people 673 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: support the idea that the illusion involves a high level 674 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: mechanism that is specific to global face processing. On the 675 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: other hand, the frequent apparition of fantastical and monstrous beings 676 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: and of animal faces cannot, in our opinion, be explained 677 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: by any actual theory of face processing. And so yeah, 678 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: there's there's still big questions about what exactly leads to 679 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: this effect. It might have something to do with with 680 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: transition points, say like maybe you're staring at a central 681 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: part of the reflection, you're looking at your own eyes 682 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: or something, and then troksler fading kicks in and the 683 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: outer parts of the face start to kind of fade away, 684 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: and you lose some color definition and stuff like that. 685 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: And then and then the visual stimulus is suddenly restored 686 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: when you blink or you move your eyes or something, 687 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: and that that part that has faded away snaps back 688 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: into focus. Maybe something in that transition causes you to 689 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: see something weird apps their gaps there, and the brain 690 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: does some strange filling in process, But we don't really know. 691 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: But what we do know for sure is that this 692 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: phenomenon is actually not contained simply to mirror gazing. You 693 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: can recreate similar effects by having people gaze directly into 694 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: other people's faces for ten minutes in low light. This 695 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: was explored in another paper that Caputo published in called 696 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: Strange Face Illusions during intersubjective gazing, so people just looking 697 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: at each other's faces. This was published in Consciousness and Cognition, 698 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: so it definitely happened with pairs of other people. So 699 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: it seems like the mirror is not really the special part. 700 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: The real keys are faces as stimulus, either yours or 701 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: somebody else's, long exposure times, just uninterrupted staring and low light. 702 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: So what makes mirror special in this regard is that 703 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,439 Speaker 1: they are a tool that anybody can use to try 704 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: to experience these strange face effects, you know, without having 705 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: to recruit somebody else who is game for a really 706 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: awkward experiment. Yeah. Now, the the idea of two people's 707 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: faces for ten minutes low light, I mean essentially this 708 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: is this is any date night scenario, right, But I 709 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: guess the beauty of date night is that you ideally 710 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: you have maybe a beverage, you have some sort of 711 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: at least an appetizer. There there's people watching, or you know, 712 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: ideally there's people watching, there's maybe art on the walls, 713 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: there are other things to captivate your attention, and then 714 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: you can keep coming back to the person across from you. 715 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: It's not it's not some sort of a you know, 716 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: just a a like a blank cell that you find 717 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: yourself engaging with this person in right. I don't want to, 718 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't like to be judgmental, but I'm 719 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: gonna say, if you're doing date night this way, you're 720 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: doing it wrong. You know you should not stare uninterrupted 721 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: without moving your eyes or blinking at somebody's face for 722 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: ten minutes. Though it sounds like it's the kind of 723 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: thing that could be a dating fat right, Like if 724 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: someone's like, look dating a normal dating scenario, you're just 725 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: not able to bond with the person. You need just 726 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 1: ten minutes of uninterrupted um facial viewing and uh, and 727 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: then you'll know whether this is your soulmate or not, 728 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: or that is a minotaur. You can't really love me 729 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: until you've seen me as a minotaur, right though. Interestingly enough, 730 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: that's like a show now where they're there's some sort 731 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: of a dating show where both people are are covered 732 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: in like heavy monster effects makeup. So yeah, serious, I 733 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: am serious. It's a show on Netflix. I have not 734 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 1: watched it, but I watched the trailer for it, and 735 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: the trailer was amusing. Um, it at least has some 736 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: cool monster like makeup effects stuff, so it'll be like, uh, 737 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: you know, two individuals they're doing a blind date thing, 738 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: except one is made up like a bird woman and 739 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: the other is I don't know, like a like a 740 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,720 Speaker 1: baseball headed mutant, that sort of thing, a baseball headed mutant. 741 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: I like it. Yeah, I can't wait till this like 742 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: back reflects onto the pickup line process and stuff. It's like, 743 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: you know, darling, let me be your pumpkin head. There 744 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: may be a pumpkin head in it. Yeah, listeners will 745 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 1: have to report back because again I'm not going to 746 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 1: actually watch this show. Just one more thing I wanted 747 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: to mention before wrapping up on the strange face in 748 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: the mirror research. So I said that Caputo has done 749 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: a number of studies following up on this and reproducing 750 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: it in different contexts since then. One that I thought 751 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: was interesting was published in the Journal of Trauma and 752 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,880 Speaker 1: Dissociation in the year twenty nineteen called Strange Face Illusions 753 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,800 Speaker 1: during eye to eye gazing and die adds specific effects 754 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: on derealization, depersonalization, and dissociative identity. Again, the study reproduced 755 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: the findings with some new areas of focus, but the 756 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: main thing I wanted to mention from this one was 757 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: that fifteen of the test subjects here were sketch artists 758 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: who were later asked to reproduce their best approximation of 759 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: some of the strange faces they saw, and Rob, here 760 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: you go. You can you can tell me what you 761 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: think of these. One I really like is a guy 762 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: with a furry face with glasses and his eyes have mustaches. 763 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: That one, yeah, that one looks pretty creepy and has 764 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: kind of a you know, blank isn't real and can't 765 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: hurt you kind of a vibe to it, as does 766 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: the big vacant eyed lizard man looking face. And then 767 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: one of them is just kind of a muppet and 768 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: the other one, um, just kind of looks like a caricature. 769 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: The monstrous monkey woman. That's what the big guide one 770 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: is called. Here, No, I think you're looking at the 771 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: alien face. The monstrous monkey one is the Okay, I 772 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: like the muppet one. Yeah, the monstrous monkey woman. Then 773 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't look very monstrous to me. Looks looks adorable. 774 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,919 Speaker 1: It looks great. Let this monkey woman teach children about 775 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: the alphabet. This this should be on Sesame Street. Now. 776 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: It's uh, there's so many additional directions to go in 777 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: from this. On one hand, we should point out that, um, 778 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's worth noting that there are other reasons 779 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: that are facing a mirror maybe extra unnerving. Um. There's, 780 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: of course, what is often referred to as mirrored self misidentification. 781 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,239 Speaker 1: And this is the delusion that wants reflection in a 782 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: mirror is some manner of double or a relative or 783 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: something of that nature, but not a reflection of yourself. 784 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: And this is actually a right hemisphere cranial dysfunction, uh 785 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: that I think is often tied to like, uh, you know, 786 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: major brain disease or some sort of traumatic injury to 787 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: the head. I mean, another way of re contextualizing what 788 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: we've just been talking about is that, um, faces are powerful. 789 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: Faces are powerful and profound stimuli that can cause powerful 790 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: and profound reactions in the brain, and mirrors are a 791 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: way of getting lots of access to face stimuli without, 792 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, in the in the privacy of your own bathroom, 793 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: you know, without anybody judging you or judging you for 794 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,839 Speaker 1: staring at them. Say, you know, I think I would 795 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: love to hear from anyone out there whose profession requires 796 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 1: them to make um eye contact or just to stare 797 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: people's faces for this kind of an extended amount of 798 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 1: time because on one hand, and granted we we do 799 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: all of our recordings through zoom now, but you know, 800 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: used to, It's like part of our whole thing is 801 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,319 Speaker 1: we have these long conversations about topics, um, you know, 802 00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 1: used to in the same room. But we're also looking 803 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: at other things. You know, maybe we're looking over to 804 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: seth to make sure the recording is going okay. We're 805 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: certainly looking at our notes to see where we are 806 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 1: in the outline, uh, you know, or even looking elsewhere 807 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: in the room. But I realized, like some people were 808 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 1: in a profession where like maybe they're a therapist or 809 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: or something, and they maybe have to make prolonged eye contact, 810 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,359 Speaker 1: prolonged you know, face to face communication. What is that Like? 811 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: Do you find yourself susceptible to some of these effects? 812 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: You know, what is the appropriate amount of face staring? 813 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: I mean too little can seem like maybe you're not 814 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: making an effort to connect with somebody, and too much 815 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: is creepy and invasive, Like you know, balancing that I 816 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,520 Speaker 1: think is one of those, uh, those ongoing social ballets 817 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: we always have to manage. Yeah, Like you don't want 818 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 1: to talk to somebody who refuses to make eye contact 819 00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,479 Speaker 1: with you. But if the eye contact is just too 820 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: like unflinching, it can feel a bit too intense. You know. 821 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: It feels like you're playing a game of of of 822 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: eyeballs Chicken with them, you know, and it's no fun. 823 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: No eyeball chicken, no eyeball road rage. You know, you 824 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 1: gotta you gotta manage right of way. This reminds me 825 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: of something we talked about in a previous episode about sunglasses, 826 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: about how you have um if an individual is wearing sunglasses, uh, 827 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 1: the other people are more inclined to believe that that 828 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: person is staring at them versus if they were not 829 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: wearing sunglasses at all. UM. So I don't I don't know. Again, 830 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: we're we're creatures that are hyper aware of staring. UM, 831 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: that know the power of staring, and a certain amount 832 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: of eye contact is required. But yeah, there's this careful 833 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,359 Speaker 1: balance that has to be um in effect. And then 834 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: you throw mirrors into this whole scenario and it just 835 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 1: it makes everything a little stranger. I think that's one 836 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,640 Speaker 1: of the big the big take homes that we keep 837 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,239 Speaker 1: coming back to with mirrors is mirrors make reality a 838 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,800 Speaker 1: little bit strange, you're and in doing so, reveal strength 839 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: strange things about our reality. Like one of those things 840 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: is that you don't really have a face. You have 841 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: you are, to a certain extent just this a symbolage 842 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: of of of organs on the front of a head. 843 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 1: And we don't think about it, but if you stare 844 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: in a mirror long enough, you might come to realize that. Likewise, uh, 845 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, realizations about um, you know, how much you 846 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: look like like a parent or a family member, or 847 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: like some you know, random celebrity face or some face 848 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,320 Speaker 1: in a painting, or even the face of a beast 849 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: or a monster. Very true. The concept of a face 850 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 1: is a kind of blessed hallucination that we're always able to, 851 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, we're usually able to maintain instead of just 852 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,760 Speaker 1: allowing the the the face hallucination to decompose into various 853 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,560 Speaker 1: contours of meat and bone. Maybe that's one of the 854 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, we came back. We've discussed this something in 855 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: both episodes. Why why the mirror is so often in 856 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 1: the toolkit of the magician and the priest and the 857 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 1: soothsayer and so forth. And I think part of it 858 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: is you could see, the mirror is a very basic 859 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: tool for breaking reality, or at least bending reality. You know, 860 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: it is a it is a means of of not 861 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,280 Speaker 1: only you know, creating effects and creating illusions, but also 862 00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:16,040 Speaker 1: taking the potency out of the the ever present illusion 863 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: of the way we perceive the world. Yeah, I think 864 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to keep thinking about this, and we're 865 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 1: gonna have to come back in part three because there's 866 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,439 Speaker 1: more mirrors to come. We have so much more, there's 867 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: so much, so much to talk about with this one. 868 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: I mean, i'd be I'd be perfectly happy to to 869 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: do this one for you know, four or five episodes. 870 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:33,839 Speaker 1: So we'll just we'll see, we'll see how how much 871 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 1: gas is in the tank. But but yeah, we'll definitely 872 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: be back with the part three. Maybe the Oculus will 873 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: make you forget all of your past and you'll have 874 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,480 Speaker 1: to do six seven, eight, just on fraternity. Well. I 875 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: don't know if I could watch Oculus again. I found 876 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,800 Speaker 1: it to be a very enjoyable horror movie, but but 877 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,400 Speaker 1: a troubling one. So I wish there were more haunted 878 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: mirror movies. I don't know that there's been a lot 879 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,319 Speaker 1: of them. I was looking around the other day, and 880 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: I think I found one from the maybe it's God. 881 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,880 Speaker 1: I can't remember which decade, sixty seventies or eighties, somewhere 882 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,719 Speaker 1: in that thirty year period. But there aren't as many 883 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 1: as you might think. I think there were. There may 884 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 1: be some various anthology episodes concerning mirrors. Just googled Haunted 885 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,720 Speaker 1: Mirror movie got a selection of movie posters and covers. 886 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: They all look really terrible, which is strange. I mean, 887 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 1: I guess it's also totally understandable because on one hand, 888 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,880 Speaker 1: it seems easy, like, oh, you just need a creepy mirror. 889 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 1: Just go by a mirror, make a mirror. Uh, just 890 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: as this prop that doesn't actually move. But you get 891 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: into how you shoot mirrors and how you use the 892 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,319 Speaker 1: mirror to make things, you know, creepier, and it gets 893 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,480 Speaker 1: a little more complicated. I guess that's why maybe weird 894 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: scenes with mirrors are are largely more memorable, you know, 895 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,200 Speaker 1: like I think of I think of like the old that, 896 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: like the nineteen nineteen seventies Macbeth adaptation has a great 897 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: sequence with a mirror in it, So stuff of that 898 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: nature comes to mind. All Right, we're gonna go and 899 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: close it. Now we're gonna put the uh you know, 900 00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put the cloth back over the haunted mirror. 901 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: But we'll be back to this us our reflections some 902 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: more in the next episode. In the meantime, if you 903 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: would like more Stuff to Blow your Mind, you can 904 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,360 Speaker 1: find it wherever you get your podcasts. Just look for 905 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,439 Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow your Mind feed We have core 906 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We have Artifacts on Wednesday, 907 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind on Monday, and on Friday's 908 00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: we do a little Weird how Cinema. That's their time 909 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 1: to talk about some strange and interesting film. Huge thanks 910 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 911 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 912 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,400 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 913 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:31,520 Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hello, you can 914 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,439 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 915 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of 916 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, 917 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're 918 00:50:50,200 --> 00:51:04,879 Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows. Most prop