1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:25,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. As a professor who teaches about the science of 2 00:00:25,356 --> 00:00:27,996 Speaker 1: well being, I spend a lot of time thinking and 3 00:00:28,116 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 1: talking and also podcasting about how to feel happier. But 4 00:00:32,956 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: in spite of all that, I'm not exactly happy one 5 00:00:35,716 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 1: hundred percent of the time. I too still feel guilty 6 00:00:39,476 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 1: and anxious. I get angry and sad and jealous, and 7 00:00:43,436 --> 00:00:47,556 Speaker 1: with so many responsibilities, I often feel overwhelmed and frustrated. 8 00:00:48,316 --> 00:00:52,076 Speaker 1: All this makes sense, I mean, experiencing negative emotions is 9 00:00:52,116 --> 00:00:55,276 Speaker 1: part of what it means to be human, but actually 10 00:00:55,276 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: having to go through all these bad emotions that kind 11 00:00:58,796 --> 00:01:02,036 Speaker 1: of sucks. If I'm being honest, I pretty much hate 12 00:01:02,076 --> 00:01:05,556 Speaker 1: going through these negative feelings, and so my first instinct 13 00:01:05,756 --> 00:01:08,236 Speaker 1: is always to push them away. As soon as I 14 00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:11,076 Speaker 1: start to detect that I'm feeling frustrated or sad or 15 00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:13,516 Speaker 1: a little pissed at someone, I try to avoid the 16 00:01:13,556 --> 00:01:18,316 Speaker 1: experience completely. I pretend it's not happening, or distract myself 17 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:20,556 Speaker 1: or dive into my work so I don't have to 18 00:01:20,596 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 1: experience that not so nice feeling. But the science shows 19 00:01:24,596 --> 00:01:27,716 Speaker 1: this isn't the smartest strategy. There's lots and lots of 20 00:01:27,716 --> 00:01:31,996 Speaker 1: evidence that suppressing and avoiding our negative sensations is ultimately 21 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:34,316 Speaker 1: only going to make us feel worse in the long run. 22 00:01:35,436 --> 00:01:38,116 Speaker 1: So my New Year's resolution for twenty twenty two is 23 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:41,396 Speaker 1: to stop running away from all my difficult emotions. I 24 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: want to allow and embrace and maybe even learn from 25 00:01:44,796 --> 00:01:49,556 Speaker 1: the yuckier sensations in life. But that's easier said than done. 26 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:56,356 Speaker 1: So I decided to call in some reinforcements. In this 27 00:01:56,396 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: special new season of the Happiness Lab, I'll chat with 28 00:01:59,156 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 1: an amazing group of experts about how we can learn 29 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:04,756 Speaker 1: from our negative emotions. Over the next few weeks, we'll 30 00:02:04,756 --> 00:02:08,076 Speaker 1: explore strategies we can all use to navigate the feelings 31 00:02:08,076 --> 00:02:10,796 Speaker 1: we'd rather not feel. We'll see how we can make 32 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:13,436 Speaker 1: peace with the emotions we hate, and we'll see that 33 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 1: they may even have something important to teach us. But 34 00:02:17,356 --> 00:02:20,476 Speaker 1: learning from our worst emotions can be a challenge even 35 00:02:20,556 --> 00:02:24,636 Speaker 1: for the experts. I think I came from fifth generation Texan. 36 00:02:24,716 --> 00:02:29,996 Speaker 1: I just came from a family that really perceived emotion 37 00:02:30,076 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: in general as weakness and as threatening. We grew up 38 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: with the belief that we are thinking, doing people who 39 00:02:38,476 --> 00:02:42,236 Speaker 1: on occasion feel, and that can get us sidelined. And 40 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:48,276 Speaker 1: so obviously no neuroscientists in my family. This is five 41 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: time New York Times best selling author Brenee Brown Brinee 42 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:56,076 Speaker 1: is one of my idols. She's an internationally recognized expert 43 00:02:56,116 --> 00:03:00,156 Speaker 1: on navigating emotions, and these days she's begun helping people 44 00:03:00,196 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 1: figure out how to name their emotions too. Brenee's new 45 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 1: book is called Atlas of the Heart, Mapping meaningful connection 46 00:03:06,556 --> 00:03:09,716 Speaker 1: and the Language of human experience. Her book has a 47 00:03:09,796 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: huge number of important tips for understanding our complex emotional landscape, 48 00:03:14,836 --> 00:03:17,116 Speaker 1: which is something Brenie has been interested in for a 49 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 1: really long time. Brenie learned as a child that she 50 00:03:19,956 --> 00:03:22,836 Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to talk about or even acknowledge her feelings, 51 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 1: but she also discovered that she was surprisingly good at 52 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:29,796 Speaker 1: observing while other people were feeling, especially when it came 53 00:03:29,836 --> 00:03:32,916 Speaker 1: to adults. It just became actually kind of a form 54 00:03:32,956 --> 00:03:36,116 Speaker 1: of psychological safety for me growing up to know the 55 00:03:36,196 --> 00:03:42,716 Speaker 1: relationship between behavior and language and thinking and feeling. I 56 00:03:42,756 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 1: think today a therapist would probably just say an over diligent, 57 00:03:46,836 --> 00:03:50,596 Speaker 1: kind of hyper vigilant way of thinking about emotion and cognition. 58 00:03:50,636 --> 00:03:52,116 Speaker 1: And I got really good at it to the point 59 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 1: where I could predict behavior. It was like a superpower. 60 00:03:54,516 --> 00:03:57,356 Speaker 1: I had a swim coach who was really volatile. I 61 00:03:57,356 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 1: mean he just would lose his shit in really inappropriate ways, 62 00:04:01,156 --> 00:04:04,116 Speaker 1: and everyone would always try to figure out, like who 63 00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: is he after? Who is he after? But it only 64 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:09,396 Speaker 1: took me like a couple of practices to realize he 65 00:04:09,516 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 1: didn't love the fastest kids. He liked the kids who 66 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:16,756 Speaker 1: tried the hardest. And he also had a pinchip for backstroke, 67 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:19,236 Speaker 1: I think whether he was a backstroker in college. So 68 00:04:19,316 --> 00:04:20,836 Speaker 1: I would just always get in the lane with the 69 00:04:20,836 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 1: people who weren't the best swimmers but who really tried hard, 70 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:25,756 Speaker 1: which was good because I wasn't one of the best swimmers. 71 00:04:25,756 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 1: So it worked and I never got in trouble. And 72 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:30,516 Speaker 1: I never shared with anyone what the secret was either, 73 00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:33,996 Speaker 1: because it was, you know, every person for themselves. Terrible 74 00:04:35,396 --> 00:04:38,956 Speaker 1: experiences like this made brine wonder why couldn't her peers 75 00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:42,316 Speaker 1: see what to her was so obvious. I spent a 76 00:04:42,356 --> 00:04:45,956 Speaker 1: lot of time thinking to myself, holy shit, do they 77 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 1: not understand what's getting ready to happen? Like? Do they 78 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:51,996 Speaker 1: not see what's happening here? Brinee's fascination with emotion and 79 00:04:52,036 --> 00:04:54,756 Speaker 1: behavior led her on a path to becoming a social worker. 80 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:58,156 Speaker 1: The research she eventually did on emotions helped her understand 81 00:04:58,196 --> 00:05:02,156 Speaker 1: why her superpower was so rare. We asked people to 82 00:05:02,196 --> 00:05:04,876 Speaker 1: make a list of all the emotions that they could 83 00:05:04,916 --> 00:05:07,676 Speaker 1: recognize in themselves as they were experiencing them, and the 84 00:05:07,756 --> 00:05:13,876 Speaker 1: mean number was as three just three three, yeah, happy, sad, 85 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 1: and pissed off. I always call it the bad, sad, 86 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 1: glad triad. And that was really shocking to me. Now, 87 00:05:20,476 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 1: they could list a lot of other emotions, but they 88 00:05:22,276 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 1: couldn't recognize when they were in them. They just knew 89 00:05:24,716 --> 00:05:28,276 Speaker 1: that those emotion feeling words existed. That got me thinking 90 00:05:28,636 --> 00:05:32,116 Speaker 1: back to a quote that I came across when I 91 00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:36,316 Speaker 1: was in college by Ludwig Wittgenstein that the limits of 92 00:05:36,356 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 1: my language mean the limits of my world. And I 93 00:05:40,036 --> 00:05:43,796 Speaker 1: just spent a lot of years thinking what happens when 94 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:49,516 Speaker 1: our language is not as expansive as our human experience? 95 00:05:50,196 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: What does it mean when we have to shove an 96 00:05:53,636 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: experience of despair or disappointment into one of these three buckets? 97 00:05:59,716 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 1: And I always knew that it completely crippled our ability 98 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:11,556 Speaker 1: to own and communicate. But I think it was probably 99 00:06:11,596 --> 00:06:14,796 Speaker 1: four or five years ago when we started seeing some 100 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:18,076 Speaker 1: of the research on how language doesn't just communicate emotion 101 00:06:18,156 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 1: but shape it. That I started thinking, oh God, holy shit, 102 00:06:22,756 --> 00:06:27,876 Speaker 1: we are individually and collectively in trouble if we don't 103 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:29,876 Speaker 1: have language. Yeah, I mean, part of our task is 104 00:06:29,916 --> 00:06:32,396 Speaker 1: recognizing emotions and other people. But how on earth are 105 00:06:32,436 --> 00:06:34,276 Speaker 1: we going to fulfill that task when we can't even 106 00:06:34,316 --> 00:06:38,116 Speaker 1: recognize our own emotional experience when it's happening and categorizing it. 107 00:06:38,476 --> 00:06:40,076 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's one thing to think about 108 00:06:40,196 --> 00:06:42,636 Speaker 1: not being able to recognize positive emotions, right, you know, 109 00:06:42,676 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: the distuned say joy and awe and amusement. But it 110 00:06:46,596 --> 00:06:48,756 Speaker 1: feels sort of different to not be able to recognize 111 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:50,636 Speaker 1: negative emotions. And I could think of a couple of 112 00:06:50,636 --> 00:06:52,956 Speaker 1: reasons why you know, people don't do that. You know. 113 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:55,596 Speaker 1: The biggest one is it just sucks to reflect on 114 00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:58,076 Speaker 1: anything that's painful, right, We tend to avoid it. It's 115 00:06:58,116 --> 00:07:00,116 Speaker 1: deep part of human nature. If it sucks, just don't 116 00:07:00,156 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 1: think about it. And so do you think that's part 117 00:07:03,036 --> 00:07:05,756 Speaker 1: of it? I think it's probably the biggest driver. I mean, 118 00:07:05,796 --> 00:07:07,956 Speaker 1: as someone who is like studied and written about shame 119 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 1: for fifty years, I can tell you that no one 120 00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:15,076 Speaker 1: wants to talk about it. You know. The bad news 121 00:07:15,116 --> 00:07:16,436 Speaker 1: is the less we talk about it, the more we 122 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:18,636 Speaker 1: experience it. But no one wants to talk about it. 123 00:07:18,636 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 1: People will do just about anything to avoid pain, including 124 00:07:24,636 --> 00:07:27,276 Speaker 1: cause pain, right, I mean, so that seems to be 125 00:07:27,356 --> 00:07:29,276 Speaker 1: part of it, is that you know, we're avoiding these 126 00:07:29,316 --> 00:07:32,196 Speaker 1: negative emotions. But another I think is just a misconception 127 00:07:32,236 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 1: about experiencing emotions, which is that if you look deep 128 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:37,356 Speaker 1: into the void, the void looks back at you. Right, 129 00:07:37,356 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: if we really dig into you know, anguish and sadness 130 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:44,316 Speaker 1: and despair and all these things, that it won't feel 131 00:07:44,356 --> 00:07:47,676 Speaker 1: good or it'll amplify these emotions. So talk about why 132 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:50,356 Speaker 1: that's a little bit of a misconception that labeling them 133 00:07:50,356 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 1: can shape them, but maybe not in the way we 134 00:07:51,956 --> 00:07:55,636 Speaker 1: often think. Yeah. No, it's a huge part of the 135 00:07:55,716 --> 00:08:00,436 Speaker 1: mythology around emotion that if we look at in the eye, 136 00:08:00,556 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: it gives it power, when the reality is if we 137 00:08:03,876 --> 00:08:05,556 Speaker 1: look at in the eye and name it, it gives 138 00:08:05,636 --> 00:08:09,476 Speaker 1: us power. And so I think it's to your point exactly, 139 00:08:09,516 --> 00:08:14,876 Speaker 1: it's just human nature to avoid what hurts, even if 140 00:08:15,396 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 1: and this is the cognitive dissonance part, even if we 141 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:21,236 Speaker 1: know avoiding it will exacerbate it. You know, emotions are 142 00:08:21,236 --> 00:08:23,156 Speaker 1: such a big part of human behavior, of human nature. 143 00:08:23,156 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 1: They affect so many parts of our life. So you 144 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:29,236 Speaker 1: might think that academics had them reasonably sorted out, that 145 00:08:29,276 --> 00:08:32,516 Speaker 1: people across disciplines agreed on a definition and these kinds 146 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:34,956 Speaker 1: of things, you know, talk about. Way, when you really 147 00:08:34,996 --> 00:08:38,396 Speaker 1: look into this, especially academically, things are much more complex 148 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:41,276 Speaker 1: than they might seem to liay folks. Yeah, I don't 149 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:44,196 Speaker 1: think there is a consensus on even the definition of emotion. 150 00:08:44,916 --> 00:08:47,956 Speaker 1: In fact, I'm really careful in the book. The middle 151 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:50,956 Speaker 1: of the book is an exploration of eighty seven emotions 152 00:08:50,956 --> 00:08:55,356 Speaker 1: and experiences. And I say emotions and experiences very purposefully 153 00:08:55,436 --> 00:08:57,276 Speaker 1: because I don't want to get into that kind of 154 00:08:57,316 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 1: academic pissing match about what is an emotion and what 155 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:04,116 Speaker 1: isn't an emotion because I'm a mix like terrible metaphors here. 156 00:09:04,116 --> 00:09:06,076 Speaker 1: But there's bigger fish to fry. Yeah. One of the 157 00:09:06,076 --> 00:09:08,316 Speaker 1: big questions that really comes up is this issue of 158 00:09:08,356 --> 00:09:10,836 Speaker 1: like how many any emotions are there, which I think 159 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:14,036 Speaker 1: is you know, something else academics fight about. So, you know, 160 00:09:14,116 --> 00:09:15,756 Speaker 1: what are some of the ideas you came up with 161 00:09:15,796 --> 00:09:17,436 Speaker 1: and what have you found in your own work in 162 00:09:17,516 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: terms of the like the number. The way we came 163 00:09:20,396 --> 00:09:23,396 Speaker 1: up with the eighty seven was really straightforward. It was 164 00:09:23,436 --> 00:09:28,156 Speaker 1: a content analysis of comments from seventy thousand people who 165 00:09:28,156 --> 00:09:30,476 Speaker 1: took an online course that I did with in partnership 166 00:09:30,476 --> 00:09:33,716 Speaker 1: with Oprah Winfrey Network, and we went in asking what 167 00:09:33,796 --> 00:09:36,396 Speaker 1: are the emotions people are struggling to name and identify, 168 00:09:36,636 --> 00:09:38,996 Speaker 1: and when they do name and identify them, help them 169 00:09:38,996 --> 00:09:42,236 Speaker 1: move through them. So then we came up with a 170 00:09:42,316 --> 00:09:45,756 Speaker 1: collection of emotions and experiences. Then we brought in a 171 00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:49,476 Speaker 1: focus group of therapists who spend hours kind of ranking 172 00:09:50,196 --> 00:09:53,276 Speaker 1: around the same question. These are critical for our clients 173 00:09:53,316 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 1: to understand in order to heal and move through them 174 00:09:57,116 --> 00:10:00,916 Speaker 1: or to experience more of it, and these are less critical, 175 00:10:00,956 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 1: and these are not critical. And this is the list 176 00:10:03,076 --> 00:10:05,596 Speaker 1: ended up with. And then I added a couple for 177 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 1: comparative reasons, like Freudenfreude wasn't on the list, but Schadenfreud 178 00:10:09,356 --> 00:10:12,156 Speaker 1: was just to compare. So when people say how many 179 00:10:12,156 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 1: emotions are there, my answer is, I have no idea. 180 00:10:15,956 --> 00:10:18,556 Speaker 1: We're exploring eighty seven of the one of the emotions 181 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:20,876 Speaker 1: and experiences we believe are helpful to be able to 182 00:10:20,996 --> 00:10:23,596 Speaker 1: name to move through them. I think that's an awesome 183 00:10:23,636 --> 00:10:26,316 Speaker 1: answer in it gets at this cross cultural issue, right, 184 00:10:26,316 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 1: because those are the eighty seven emotions that you're my 185 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 1: guess is Western mostly American participants, you know, came up 186 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:35,316 Speaker 1: with right where you did do the same analysis somewhere else. 187 00:10:35,316 --> 00:10:37,756 Speaker 1: It might be a different set of them too. I mean, 188 00:10:37,796 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 1: just as a shame researcher Man, English is one of 189 00:10:40,036 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 1: the only languages that has one word for shame, and 190 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 1: when we were translating into Spanish, there was a debate 191 00:10:46,116 --> 00:10:48,716 Speaker 1: for three months about whether you should use the word 192 00:10:48,756 --> 00:10:51,916 Speaker 1: for sin for shame the gallo like no, and then 193 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:55,156 Speaker 1: is it balwinsa. You know, maybe, but it's in context 194 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 1: because that can also mean embarrassing. You know, It's like, 195 00:10:57,836 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 1: it's really tricky emotions happen in the context of culture. 196 00:11:01,876 --> 00:11:04,036 Speaker 1: So this is the first book and all my books 197 00:11:04,076 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: that I have really put my foot down. We're not 198 00:11:06,796 --> 00:11:09,556 Speaker 1: allowing it to be translated. And that's you know, that's 199 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 1: hard with your publisher, right. A lot of the books 200 00:11:11,476 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 1: are translating into thirty forty languages, and I didn't collect 201 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:18,316 Speaker 1: the data cross culturally. Therefore, just because we can translate 202 00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: it using a computer program. Doesn't make it right? Does 203 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:23,356 Speaker 1: that make sense? Totally? Totally. A bigger goal of the 204 00:11:23,356 --> 00:11:25,276 Speaker 1: new book is really to do something that's important for 205 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:26,916 Speaker 1: all of us but we rarely do, which is to 206 00:11:26,996 --> 00:11:30,756 Speaker 1: kind of get into emotional granularity, right, like really map 207 00:11:30,796 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: out the tiny emotions and how they move through space. 208 00:11:33,956 --> 00:11:35,716 Speaker 1: And so I wanted you to talk a little bit 209 00:11:35,756 --> 00:11:37,956 Speaker 1: about this idea of an atlas, you know, and how 210 00:11:37,996 --> 00:11:40,316 Speaker 1: you get to this metaphor of making a map. Yeah, 211 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:44,396 Speaker 1: when I interviewed cartologists, they said, when you build a map, 212 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:47,596 Speaker 1: a map is just a collection of layers. You first 213 00:11:47,636 --> 00:11:49,756 Speaker 1: go and you get the topography. Then maybe you get 214 00:11:49,756 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 1: where the water is, and maybe where you get where 215 00:11:51,636 --> 00:11:54,716 Speaker 1: the roads are. And the story of a map is 216 00:11:54,756 --> 00:11:59,436 Speaker 1: in the layers. And I really thought this is the 217 00:11:59,556 --> 00:12:03,636 Speaker 1: right metaphor for this work because the story of our 218 00:12:03,676 --> 00:12:08,076 Speaker 1: emotional lives is in the layers. Which is why I think. 219 00:12:08,876 --> 00:12:11,476 Speaker 1: Have you ever seen the movie Chef? No? Actually, oh 220 00:12:11,556 --> 00:12:13,836 Speaker 1: my god, I really want you to watch it. Okay, 221 00:12:13,876 --> 00:12:15,516 Speaker 1: I will go, I will go, and the next time 222 00:12:16,356 --> 00:12:19,036 Speaker 1: part two on Chef, Well, there's this great scene where 223 00:12:19,436 --> 00:12:22,476 Speaker 1: John Favreau, he's losing his shit. A critic is in 224 00:12:22,556 --> 00:12:25,436 Speaker 1: his restaurant tasting his food, and he's sticking his fingers 225 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:28,316 Speaker 1: in this guy's food. He's yelling at this guy, and 226 00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:31,796 Speaker 1: it was such a great example of if I just 227 00:12:31,836 --> 00:12:35,996 Speaker 1: saw you doing that like Laurie was doing that, I 228 00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:39,076 Speaker 1: would say, Oh, he's so angry, But is it anger? 229 00:12:39,516 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 1: Because grief could present the same way as could shame, 230 00:12:42,876 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 1: as could humiliation, as could despair, And so I was 231 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:51,756 Speaker 1: really wrong about something I have said probably a thousand times. 232 00:12:51,956 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 1: We need to learn how to recognize emotions and self 233 00:12:54,396 --> 00:12:58,196 Speaker 1: and others, and I actually, coming to the end of 234 00:12:58,196 --> 00:13:01,636 Speaker 1: this process, don't believe that we can actually recognize emotion 235 00:13:01,716 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 1: in others. And if anybody could, I think I would 236 00:13:03,876 --> 00:13:05,876 Speaker 1: be somebody at least in the top one hundred or so. 237 00:13:06,356 --> 00:13:09,236 Speaker 1: I don't think we can read emotion in people. What 238 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:13,556 Speaker 1: I think we can do is get curious, connect with 239 00:13:13,596 --> 00:13:20,396 Speaker 1: them deeply, as opposed to diminish, question, challenge, and listen. 240 00:13:21,236 --> 00:13:23,076 Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, we'll hear more 241 00:13:23,076 --> 00:13:26,276 Speaker 1: about this idea that emotions come in layers, and how 242 00:13:26,356 --> 00:13:29,356 Speaker 1: understanding those layers can help us get better at describing 243 00:13:29,356 --> 00:13:33,116 Speaker 1: the things we're feeling. The happiness lab will be right back. 244 00:13:42,036 --> 00:13:44,556 Speaker 1: I've been talking with social worker and best selling author 245 00:13:44,596 --> 00:13:47,716 Speaker 1: Brene Brown about how important it is to recognize and 246 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:52,996 Speaker 1: communicate our emotions, especially the difficult ones. But the language 247 00:13:53,036 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 1: we used to talk about our feelings doesn't just shape us. 248 00:13:56,316 --> 00:14:01,076 Speaker 1: It also influences our relationships. This idea that language doesn't 249 00:14:01,076 --> 00:14:04,316 Speaker 1: communicate solely, it also shapes. It's like the benefit that's 250 00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:07,916 Speaker 1: come to mind is if you're baking cookies, you know 251 00:14:07,996 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: your Grandma's best russ pay and the flavor change is 252 00:14:11,756 --> 00:14:15,156 Speaker 1: radically dependent on the bowl you use. I mean, that's 253 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:19,196 Speaker 1: the power of language. And so what happens if what 254 00:14:19,236 --> 00:14:23,356 Speaker 1: you're experiencing is actually disappointment but the only language you 255 00:14:23,356 --> 00:14:26,396 Speaker 1: have available to you is sad. I can't, as your friend, 256 00:14:26,396 --> 00:14:28,196 Speaker 1: call you and say, Laurie, do you have a second sure, 257 00:14:28,556 --> 00:14:31,716 Speaker 1: I'm so disappointed. If you and I both understand what 258 00:14:31,756 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 1: disappointment is, somewhere in our conversation, we're probably going to 259 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:40,236 Speaker 1: get to the expectation that got betrayed, which because there's 260 00:14:40,236 --> 00:14:44,196 Speaker 1: a relationship between disappointment and expectation, and that's where the 261 00:14:44,276 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 1: healing is, that's where the learning is. I'll call you 262 00:14:47,156 --> 00:14:49,196 Speaker 1: and say I'm so pissed off, you know, like that's 263 00:14:49,316 --> 00:14:53,676 Speaker 1: more my modus operandi, but it doesn't get to Wow. 264 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:57,356 Speaker 1: I said an expectation that I had no control over, 265 00:14:57,556 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 1: and I put a lot behind it. And so you've 266 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:02,796 Speaker 1: given us a nice guide to kind of figure out 267 00:15:02,836 --> 00:15:05,236 Speaker 1: how we can get that granularity, you know, to what 268 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:08,236 Speaker 1: our kind of roads and elevation is in the emotions 269 00:15:08,316 --> 00:15:10,716 Speaker 1: map in this for your idea of the sort of 270 00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:12,356 Speaker 1: four bees as it were, I'm not sure if you 271 00:15:12,396 --> 00:15:14,316 Speaker 1: called them the four bees, but yeah, so walk me 272 00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:15,756 Speaker 1: through some of the things that are kind of in 273 00:15:15,756 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 1: the emotion map. These four bees. Well, I think, and 274 00:15:18,916 --> 00:15:22,996 Speaker 1: I don't know that they work in a linear way biology, biography, behavior, 275 00:15:23,036 --> 00:15:26,156 Speaker 1: and backstory. So I think biology. Look, they call them 276 00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:28,716 Speaker 1: feelings because our body is the first to respond. I mean, 277 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:32,076 Speaker 1: this emotion is physiological, and so to be able to 278 00:15:32,156 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 1: understand where in your body are you feeling this and 279 00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:39,396 Speaker 1: what are you feeling? Even just in a more you know, 280 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:42,636 Speaker 1: kind of less granular, more chunky level, I'm triggered by something, 281 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:47,676 Speaker 1: something's got me hooked. I'm in emotion and then biography. 282 00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:51,196 Speaker 1: You know, I was raised in a family where you 283 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 1: don't feel, and if you feel anything. The only thing 284 00:15:53,556 --> 00:15:55,996 Speaker 1: that's really okay to feel as anger, Like we could 285 00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: be pissed, but we could never say my feelings are hurt, 286 00:15:58,556 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 1: because that would be too vulnerable and too weak. Probably, 287 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 1: So what did I grow up understanding or believing or 288 00:16:05,916 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 1: learning about this feeling? And then the next is behavior? 289 00:16:11,636 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: How am I showing up right now? You know? Like 290 00:16:14,116 --> 00:16:15,916 Speaker 1: I'm coming down of my skin. I'd want to punch 291 00:16:15,956 --> 00:16:18,556 Speaker 1: the wall. I just want to hide and cry. And 292 00:16:18,596 --> 00:16:21,356 Speaker 1: then I think this last be is the one that 293 00:16:21,436 --> 00:16:25,116 Speaker 1: really changed my mind about my belief that we can 294 00:16:25,156 --> 00:16:28,956 Speaker 1: really understand what other people are thinking without stories, which 295 00:16:29,076 --> 00:16:32,996 Speaker 1: is the backstory. Like if I see you in tears, 296 00:16:33,316 --> 00:16:37,156 Speaker 1: I can't assume that it's grief. I can't assume that 297 00:16:37,156 --> 00:16:41,556 Speaker 1: it's disappointment. I can't. I need to be so other 298 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 1: focused and so curious that I want to know what 299 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:48,116 Speaker 1: it's about. And so yeah, I think they're complicated, and 300 00:16:48,156 --> 00:16:50,476 Speaker 1: I think that we know enough now from neuroscience to 301 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 1: know that unlike how I was raised, we are emotional beings. 302 00:16:55,956 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 1: We do a lot based on emotion, and when we're feeling, 303 00:17:00,676 --> 00:17:04,476 Speaker 1: cognition is not even in the passenger seat. It's like 304 00:17:04,516 --> 00:17:06,796 Speaker 1: hog tied in the trunk. Yeah. But part of the 305 00:17:06,956 --> 00:17:08,636 Speaker 1: insight for me, and I think the insight for a 306 00:17:08,636 --> 00:17:11,476 Speaker 1: lot of people reading this is first just realizing how 307 00:17:11,516 --> 00:17:15,796 Speaker 1: little they thought, carefully thought about their emotional landscaped at all, 308 00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 1: Like how very little they knew about the specific places. 309 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:21,756 Speaker 1: One of my favorite things about reading the book is 310 00:17:21,796 --> 00:17:23,916 Speaker 1: that I like to think that I'm learning all this stuff. 311 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:26,876 Speaker 1: But then when you, you know, amazing social worker and 312 00:17:27,076 --> 00:17:29,636 Speaker 1: five time best selling New York Times author Brene Brown, 313 00:17:30,116 --> 00:17:33,076 Speaker 1: when you're learning stuff about emotion, when you're getting it wrong, 314 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,756 Speaker 1: you know, that makes me feel really really good, or 315 00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:37,396 Speaker 1: at least it makes me feel like I'm not like 316 00:17:37,516 --> 00:17:40,876 Speaker 1: completely messing up. Yeah, I mean, you know, we bucketed 317 00:17:40,916 --> 00:17:43,836 Speaker 1: at the eighty seven into different families, into different maps, 318 00:17:44,036 --> 00:17:47,516 Speaker 1: and there's not a single grouping where I did not 319 00:17:47,636 --> 00:17:49,436 Speaker 1: make at least two or three mistakes. And how I 320 00:17:49,516 --> 00:17:52,476 Speaker 1: use language constantly, Like I didn't understand the difference between 321 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:56,676 Speaker 1: jealousy and envy, and I didn't understand that envy was 322 00:17:56,716 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: wanting something someone else had, and that jealousy is the 323 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: fear of losing something you have to someone else. Now 324 00:18:03,636 --> 00:18:06,356 Speaker 1: I understand it, but I'm not going to stop saying jealous. 325 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:10,476 Speaker 1: So because if you show me your vacation pictures, I'm like, hey, Laurie, like, 326 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:12,636 Speaker 1: how was Greece, And you're like, oh my god, let 327 00:18:12,676 --> 00:18:14,996 Speaker 1: me show you. And I'm like, oh my god, I'm 328 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 1: so jealous. I'm so jelly. You know, That's what I 329 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:20,356 Speaker 1: would say, and I'd try to figure out why I 330 00:18:20,396 --> 00:18:23,596 Speaker 1: would never say, God, Laurie, I'm really envious. First of all, 331 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:25,996 Speaker 1: that sounds terrible, right, yeah. It sounds more like you're 332 00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:31,436 Speaker 1: going after my vacation or something, you know, something negative, like, yeah, Well, 333 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:34,316 Speaker 1: I think that's because there's two types of envy. There's 334 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 1: kind of benign MV which means I want something you 335 00:18:37,156 --> 00:18:38,876 Speaker 1: have and I'm so glad you had it. But there's 336 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:42,596 Speaker 1: also malicious envy, where I want something you have and 337 00:18:42,636 --> 00:18:45,116 Speaker 1: you're going down forgetting it. One of the ones that 338 00:18:45,236 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 1: was a life changing for me, to be honest with you, 339 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:51,356 Speaker 1: is comparison. To compare is to be human. Basically, we 340 00:18:51,476 --> 00:18:55,636 Speaker 1: compare involuntarily. It's just part of our wiring. Like I 341 00:18:55,676 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: did not know that, And so where the inflection point comes, 342 00:19:00,116 --> 00:19:03,596 Speaker 1: where the self determination comes, is what we choose to 343 00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:06,156 Speaker 1: do with a comparison. So the story I tell in 344 00:19:06,236 --> 00:19:08,716 Speaker 1: my book is I swim laps a lot, and if 345 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:10,876 Speaker 1: I happened to sync up with someone in a lane 346 00:19:10,876 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: next to me and we push off the wall at 347 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:16,196 Speaker 1: the same time, I'm racing them, and I don't care 348 00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: if it's a twenty five year old triathlete or an 349 00:19:19,156 --> 00:19:21,996 Speaker 1: eighty five year old woman, I'm racing you. But now, 350 00:19:22,036 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 1: since doing this research, I'll say, to compare is human. 351 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:27,996 Speaker 1: To let go of it is divine. That's what I 352 00:19:28,036 --> 00:19:30,556 Speaker 1: say to myself. So now I'll push off at the 353 00:19:30,556 --> 00:19:33,076 Speaker 1: wall and then I just look at the person. Then underwater, 354 00:19:33,116 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 1: I just say, have a good swim friend. And so 355 00:19:36,276 --> 00:19:40,436 Speaker 1: the intervention point is not to not compare, because apparently 356 00:19:40,436 --> 00:19:44,076 Speaker 1: we just do that as humans, probably related to like safety, right, Yeah, 357 00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:46,836 Speaker 1: I mean there's evidence, for example that even non human 358 00:19:46,876 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 1: primates and animals compare thea really, somebody else is getting 359 00:19:50,316 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: a better You know, you're only getting a cucumber for 360 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 1: your work on some project. You know, you're doing some 361 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:57,276 Speaker 1: reward task and you get a cucumber, but somebody else 362 00:19:57,316 --> 00:19:59,196 Speaker 1: gets a grape, even though a cucumber would have been 363 00:19:59,236 --> 00:20:01,116 Speaker 1: you know, fine delicious food. To get all of a 364 00:20:01,156 --> 00:20:03,196 Speaker 1: sudden you're like mad that you're getting a grape, and 365 00:20:03,236 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 1: so you can see monkeys like throwing the cucumber and 366 00:20:05,316 --> 00:20:07,356 Speaker 1: rejecting and you know, shaking, you know, the bars of 367 00:20:07,396 --> 00:20:09,596 Speaker 1: their enclosure. You know. So it it's not even the 368 00:20:09,596 --> 00:20:12,276 Speaker 1: comparison is human. Comparison might be primate or maybe it's 369 00:20:12,276 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 1: even mammal. We don't know life, but it's deep, yeah, 370 00:20:15,516 --> 00:20:18,236 Speaker 1: like a social say, oh my god, I am the 371 00:20:18,316 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 1: cucumber wielding monkey. One of the you know, ironically surprising 372 00:20:22,796 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 1: ones for me was thinking about surprise. You talk about 373 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:28,276 Speaker 1: how we should pay attention to surprise because it's this 374 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 1: really weird emotion because it has an incredibly short duration. 375 00:20:32,076 --> 00:20:34,716 Speaker 1: You know, we wait for like sadness, you know, grief 376 00:20:34,756 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 1: for a long time does this dissipate, But surprise one 377 00:20:38,076 --> 00:20:40,556 Speaker 1: second you realize what's happening and then it's over. So 378 00:20:40,796 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 1: fascinating from like a cognitive science perspective that there's just 379 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,316 Speaker 1: one emotion that's just really short lived. It's like the 380 00:20:46,316 --> 00:20:49,836 Speaker 1: shortest and this also taught me something about myself, so 381 00:20:50,196 --> 00:20:52,756 Speaker 1: it's very short, and then it's a bridge to other things, 382 00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:55,996 Speaker 1: other cognitions and emotions that follow. Right, It's a bridge, 383 00:20:55,996 --> 00:20:57,876 Speaker 1: I call it a cannon, Like you get shot out 384 00:20:57,876 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 1: of this thing emotionally and it's over like that, but 385 00:21:00,036 --> 00:21:02,556 Speaker 1: then you're in something else. The emotion that follows a 386 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:07,516 Speaker 1: surprise are normally exacerbated by surprise. You feel them more 387 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: deeply what's happening. So I hate surprises, Like even I'm 388 00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:15,356 Speaker 1: a huge mystery reader and a huge mystery watcher, and 389 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:18,076 Speaker 1: I will read a plot or the back of a 390 00:21:18,076 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 1: book before I start, and people think, God, what is 391 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:22,316 Speaker 1: wrong with you, Like if there's no joy in that, 392 00:21:22,356 --> 00:21:23,996 Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, it may not be joined that 393 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:26,316 Speaker 1: for you, But for me to sit in a theater 394 00:21:26,636 --> 00:21:29,756 Speaker 1: for two hours not knowing what's going to happen, I can't. 395 00:21:29,876 --> 00:21:31,956 Speaker 1: That's not fun for me. That's anxiety producing for me. 396 00:21:32,036 --> 00:21:34,516 Speaker 1: So I can really enjoy the film if I understand 397 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:36,396 Speaker 1: who's going to die or who did it, or who's 398 00:21:36,436 --> 00:21:39,476 Speaker 1: the bad person or you know whatever. But now I 399 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 1: understand better. But it's not surprised that I mind so much. 400 00:21:44,636 --> 00:21:47,636 Speaker 1: It's the fact that it heightens the emotions that follow, 401 00:21:48,156 --> 00:21:51,396 Speaker 1: and I do not like heightened emotion. This was really 402 00:21:51,396 --> 00:21:53,676 Speaker 1: clarifying for me because I'm with you, not not for 403 00:21:53,716 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: all films, but definitely for scary films. I'm really even 404 00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 1: I like love Halloween. I'm obsessed with Halloween, but I 405 00:21:59,196 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: hate scary movies, and to watch one with my husband, 406 00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:04,436 Speaker 1: I have to like go on Wikipedia and read the 407 00:22:04,516 --> 00:22:06,716 Speaker 1: plot so I know when the jump scares are coming, 408 00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:09,276 Speaker 1: so that I can like be like it's coming, I'll 409 00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:11,156 Speaker 1: be okay, I'll just feel a little bit afraid. So 410 00:22:11,436 --> 00:22:13,396 Speaker 1: it was nice to hear that I'm not alone in that. 411 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:17,436 Speaker 1: So those are cases of like realizing more about these emotions, 412 00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 1: you know, surprises this canon that shoots you into other things. 413 00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:22,476 Speaker 1: I thought another deep insight of your book was all 414 00:22:22,516 --> 00:22:25,236 Speaker 1: these cases where we just failed to tell emotions apart. 415 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 1: You know you mentioned this with jealousy and envy right. 416 00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:31,036 Speaker 1: Another one I love learning about was this distinction between 417 00:22:31,116 --> 00:22:33,996 Speaker 1: worry and rumination. So talk a little bit about why 418 00:22:34,036 --> 00:22:37,356 Speaker 1: those are so different. Man, I did not know a 419 00:22:37,436 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 1: lot about ruminating and the dangerous for rumination before I 420 00:22:41,676 --> 00:22:44,596 Speaker 1: went into this. It came up as kind of the 421 00:22:44,676 --> 00:22:48,196 Speaker 1: variable that predicts whether nostalgia is going to be healthy 422 00:22:48,236 --> 00:22:52,076 Speaker 1: psychologically are dangerous because honestly, I think of nostalgia as 423 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 1: a dog whistle for white supremacy most of the time 424 00:22:54,876 --> 00:22:58,156 Speaker 1: to be honest with you. Like, ah, back then it 425 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:01,236 Speaker 1: was so good soft comma when people knew their place, 426 00:23:01,556 --> 00:23:04,676 Speaker 1: you know. And so I came into nostalgia like loaded 427 00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:07,236 Speaker 1: for bear. I was like, there's nothing good about nostalgia. 428 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:09,756 Speaker 1: But I think it was Sandra Garrido who said in 429 00:23:09,836 --> 00:23:13,196 Speaker 1: her research nostalgic can be beautiful and wonderful, which is 430 00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 1: good because it gives me permission to feel nostalgic again 431 00:23:15,236 --> 00:23:17,676 Speaker 1: about some things like a childhood smell or something that 432 00:23:18,196 --> 00:23:21,036 Speaker 1: makes me feel warm and fuzzy. But it's they're ruminating 433 00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:26,676 Speaker 1: that makes it really psychologically unhealthy, and I think it 434 00:23:26,716 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 1: can be dangerous collectively. After the break, Brenee will walk 435 00:23:30,516 --> 00:23:32,916 Speaker 1: us through even more of these emotions that we think 436 00:23:32,956 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 1: we understand but we kind of just don't. We'll also 437 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:39,876 Speaker 1: see that understanding the nuances of these emotions might be 438 00:23:39,916 --> 00:23:42,556 Speaker 1: the key to breaking free from some pretty negative patterns 439 00:23:42,556 --> 00:23:53,996 Speaker 1: of behavior. The Happiness Lab will be right back as 440 00:23:54,036 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 1: a professor of psychology and host of this podcast. I 441 00:23:56,916 --> 00:23:58,916 Speaker 1: had always assumed that I knew a lot about my 442 00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:02,796 Speaker 1: own feelings. I'm not totally sure how many emotions I 443 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 1: could have named before talking with Burnee, but it was 444 00:24:05,836 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 1: probably way less than the eighty seven she identified in 445 00:24:08,916 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 1: her book, But Brine admitted that some of these emotions 446 00:24:12,476 --> 00:24:15,836 Speaker 1: were pretty tricky for her to disentangle too. One of 447 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:18,316 Speaker 1: the cool differences between rumination and worry is kind of 448 00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:21,076 Speaker 1: which direction they're pointing, which is something I'd never really 449 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:24,276 Speaker 1: thought about before. Your rumination is kind of pointing towards 450 00:24:24,356 --> 00:24:27,956 Speaker 1: the past, whereas worry is pointing towards the future. I mean, 451 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:30,116 Speaker 1: both are bad, but that means you deal with them 452 00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:33,876 Speaker 1: in slightly different ways. Yeah, And how would you define ruminating? Yeah, 453 00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:35,836 Speaker 1: I mean, I think of rumination is like, you know, 454 00:24:35,876 --> 00:24:38,476 Speaker 1: a thought pattern that you get stuck in, you know, 455 00:24:38,556 --> 00:24:41,436 Speaker 1: a lot like worry right where you're kind of, you know, 456 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 1: your thoughts are going back to this over and over again. 457 00:24:43,796 --> 00:24:46,436 Speaker 1: You're not actually making progress in terms of dealing with it. 458 00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 1: But it was funny to realize that one of those 459 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,836 Speaker 1: thought patterns is about the future. You know, I tend 460 00:24:51,876 --> 00:24:53,396 Speaker 1: to have a lot of health anxiety, so I'm like, 461 00:24:53,436 --> 00:24:55,276 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, you know, I see the symptoms. It 462 00:24:55,356 --> 00:24:57,836 Speaker 1: can't you're you know, like I'm you know, worrying, worrying 463 00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:00,596 Speaker 1: about the future. But then you also have rumination. Right 464 00:25:00,796 --> 00:25:03,396 Speaker 1: that thing that I did before, I can't believe I 465 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:05,116 Speaker 1: said that to that person, like I wonder how they're 466 00:25:05,116 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 1: going to react, and did it out God, But it 467 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:09,556 Speaker 1: was funny to realize that the form of the feel 468 00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:12,076 Speaker 1: so familiar, and I would have used those words interchangeably, 469 00:25:12,276 --> 00:25:15,476 Speaker 1: but they map onto totally different things, right Like with worry, 470 00:25:15,556 --> 00:25:17,876 Speaker 1: I need to deal with my anxiety or make take 471 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 1: control about the future or kind of allow that. With rumination, 472 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:22,676 Speaker 1: there's something about the past that I might need to 473 00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:24,956 Speaker 1: deal with and get over and allow in a different way. 474 00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 1: And so it's sort of different paths forward with each 475 00:25:27,556 --> 00:25:30,916 Speaker 1: of them. It's holding on to something different and then 476 00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,356 Speaker 1: different paths out of them. Worry, I'm a warrior, like 477 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:36,916 Speaker 1: I can really worry with the best of them, but 478 00:25:36,996 --> 00:25:40,756 Speaker 1: some of them mythology that warriors carry felt like I 479 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:42,836 Speaker 1: felt like I was really being read. It was terrible, 480 00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:46,356 Speaker 1: because you know, warriors believe that worrying is helpful. It's not. 481 00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:51,556 Speaker 1: Warriors believe that they cannot change that about them. We can. 482 00:25:51,996 --> 00:25:54,596 Speaker 1: And then how dangerous it is to worry about worrying. 483 00:25:55,236 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 1: And so I have to dispel the mythology about worry 484 00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:00,956 Speaker 1: because I do tell myself it's good, and I do 485 00:26:00,996 --> 00:26:03,116 Speaker 1: tell myself that I can't help it when I can. 486 00:26:03,316 --> 00:26:06,556 Speaker 1: I also, before I wrote this book, I use the 487 00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:10,236 Speaker 1: word overwhelmed a lot, and I used it when I 488 00:26:10,316 --> 00:26:13,236 Speaker 1: was actually just stressed. And I think when I tell 489 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:16,956 Speaker 1: my body that I'm overwhelmed, it has a protocol that 490 00:26:17,036 --> 00:26:20,116 Speaker 1: it follows, where that is just shut down protocol. I 491 00:26:20,116 --> 00:26:23,996 Speaker 1: think it's John Cabotzen that has this beautiful definition of overwhelmed, 492 00:26:23,996 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 1: where life is unfolding at a pace faster than my 493 00:26:28,436 --> 00:26:32,956 Speaker 1: nervous system or psyche can manage, and so overwhelmed I 494 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: need to reserve that term for when I mean it. 495 00:26:35,876 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: These are all cases where the act of not telling 496 00:26:38,476 --> 00:26:41,996 Speaker 1: emotions of heart allows us to miss nuance. That's critical 497 00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:43,956 Speaker 1: for kind of figuring out how to deal with these emotions. 498 00:26:43,996 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 1: But there are other cases where we don't realize that 499 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:48,116 Speaker 1: two emotions are very close on a map, and that 500 00:26:48,156 --> 00:26:51,836 Speaker 1: can help us miss cases where maybe thinking about emotions 501 00:26:51,996 --> 00:26:54,076 Speaker 1: in that different way it might help us. And so 502 00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:57,276 Speaker 1: I thought about this in the context of anxiety versus excitement. 503 00:26:57,956 --> 00:27:00,036 Speaker 1: You know, if you did like anxiety versus excitement, I'm like, 504 00:27:00,076 --> 00:27:01,836 Speaker 1: you know, one hundred percent excitement, you know, the heck 505 00:27:01,836 --> 00:27:04,796 Speaker 1: with anxiety, but like in emotional space on your atlast, 506 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:07,316 Speaker 1: they're kind of close, and that might give us some 507 00:27:07,356 --> 00:27:09,796 Speaker 1: insights about how to kind of navigate anxiety that we 508 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:12,676 Speaker 1: didn't think about before. Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest 509 00:27:12,716 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 1: with you, I'm still wrestling with this and I write 510 00:27:14,596 --> 00:27:17,476 Speaker 1: about wrestling with it because I think when we think 511 00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:21,556 Speaker 1: about the four bees in biology terms, I think our 512 00:27:21,596 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 1: physiological response to excitement anxiety can be very similar, kind 513 00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:29,276 Speaker 1: of coming out of our skin a little bit. That 514 00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: just Oh and then with the research shows is that 515 00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:36,836 Speaker 1: when we're torn between what we're feeling but we label 516 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:41,076 Speaker 1: it anxiety, the outcomes are more positive. When we label 517 00:27:41,196 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 1: what we're feeling as anxiety, it's more negative. So I'm 518 00:27:44,436 --> 00:27:47,716 Speaker 1: trying to figure out for myself what that means and 519 00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:53,196 Speaker 1: when that's helpful without diminishing the fact that anxiety is 520 00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:55,676 Speaker 1: a real thing and when we're in it, just calling 521 00:27:55,676 --> 00:27:58,316 Speaker 1: it something else doesn't make it go away. Does that 522 00:27:58,356 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 1: make sense? Yeah? Totally. I mean it suggests that we 523 00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,596 Speaker 1: might be able to prepare ourselves better, you know, with 524 00:28:03,636 --> 00:28:06,636 Speaker 1: the backstory ahead of time. Yeah, you know, I'm going 525 00:28:06,676 --> 00:28:09,876 Speaker 1: into this job interview, and you can work on the 526 00:28:09,916 --> 00:28:12,476 Speaker 1: backstory to be what a cool challenge to meet these 527 00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:16,156 Speaker 1: new people. I'm so excited that kind of backstory might 528 00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:19,036 Speaker 1: lead to a different outcome. Then if the backstory is, gosh, 529 00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:21,276 Speaker 1: I need this job, you know, I'm worried that I 530 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 1: don't have the right qualifications that backstory, even though the 531 00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 1: biology is the same. Right your fight or flight systems activated. 532 00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 1: You know, your heart's racing, you know, you can see 533 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:31,676 Speaker 1: it in these totally different ways, you know, So those 534 00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:34,996 Speaker 1: are cases where you know, recognizing these are emotions are 535 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:37,236 Speaker 1: close and if we just push one of the bees, 536 00:28:37,276 --> 00:28:39,076 Speaker 1: you know, push the backstory or something a different way, 537 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:41,276 Speaker 1: I can help. But another one of the biggest insights 538 00:28:41,316 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: I got from your book, perhaps the biggest insight, is 539 00:28:43,556 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: these cases where we just don't remember where the emotions 540 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 1: are on an emotional map, and thinking about them differently 541 00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:53,876 Speaker 1: can completely change the way we respond to them. And 542 00:28:53,916 --> 00:28:55,836 Speaker 1: so you talked about one of the big insights you 543 00:28:55,916 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 1: had in this domain when thinking about the emotion of resentment. 544 00:29:00,396 --> 00:29:01,716 Speaker 1: You know, do you want to talk about the kind 545 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:04,436 Speaker 1: of insight you got there? The resentment was living on 546 00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:07,676 Speaker 1: the wrong continent in my life it's like, oh my god, 547 00:29:08,076 --> 00:29:11,076 Speaker 1: this was real. This is hard for me. The long 548 00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:15,676 Speaker 1: story short is that I've struggled a lot with resentment 549 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:20,036 Speaker 1: and I can really feel it. So I was interviewing 550 00:29:20,076 --> 00:29:23,836 Speaker 1: Mark Brackett from You All about his book, and before 551 00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:25,196 Speaker 1: we went on the air, I said, Hey, can I 552 00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:27,876 Speaker 1: just ask you a personal question for me personally? And 553 00:29:27,916 --> 00:29:30,356 Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, sure, and I said, resentment is from 554 00:29:30,396 --> 00:29:34,836 Speaker 1: the Anger family, right, and he goes, no, resentment is 555 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:37,076 Speaker 1: actually a function of envy. And then it was like 556 00:29:37,116 --> 00:29:40,236 Speaker 1: time to go on and I was like, oh, holy shit, 557 00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 1: and you know, we did this podcast. It was great. 558 00:29:44,356 --> 00:29:47,036 Speaker 1: I called my therapist, like on the way home, I said, 559 00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:49,116 Speaker 1: I really need to talk to you. And as we 560 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:52,756 Speaker 1: started to unpack that, what I realized is the times 561 00:29:52,876 --> 00:29:56,116 Speaker 1: when I was the most resentful is when I'm deep 562 00:29:56,156 --> 00:29:59,116 Speaker 1: in to burnout. I'm exhausted, and I don't think everyone 563 00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:02,436 Speaker 1: else is working as hard as I am. And it 564 00:30:02,476 --> 00:30:05,396 Speaker 1: turns out that I'm not mad because people aren't working 565 00:30:05,476 --> 00:30:08,636 Speaker 1: as hard. I'm envious because they're taking care of themselves. 566 00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:11,076 Speaker 1: And what's so surprising about that is then it gives you, 567 00:30:11,116 --> 00:30:13,556 Speaker 1: like it plops in your lap, a solution which is 568 00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:15,716 Speaker 1: not yell at them and be like, hey, you work more, 569 00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:18,116 Speaker 1: you know, dang it. It's it's to say, actually, I 570 00:30:18,156 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: need to set up my own boundaries, like I'm what 571 00:30:20,516 --> 00:30:22,676 Speaker 1: I'm jealous of that? You know, because as you talk about, 572 00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:24,716 Speaker 1: envy has a kind of content and there's a thing 573 00:30:24,796 --> 00:30:27,196 Speaker 1: that you're envious of. It might be those other people's 574 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:30,116 Speaker 1: boundaries or there, you know, time affluence, the fact that 575 00:30:30,156 --> 00:30:33,156 Speaker 1: they have some space totally. And so that one was 576 00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:35,596 Speaker 1: profound for me because it made me realize the way 577 00:30:35,596 --> 00:30:37,716 Speaker 1: I go about solving yet and my teams in my 578 00:30:37,756 --> 00:30:40,276 Speaker 1: life with family members. It's wrong, right, It's about me 579 00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:42,316 Speaker 1: and the changes I need to make for myself that 580 00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:44,916 Speaker 1: the changes I need to make for the relationship. Yeah, 581 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:47,316 Speaker 1: and now, and when I feel envious, I don't say 582 00:30:47,476 --> 00:30:50,196 Speaker 1: what is this person doing to piss me off? Which 583 00:30:50,236 --> 00:30:51,996 Speaker 1: is an easy question for me to ask. It's how 584 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:55,396 Speaker 1: I was raised, It's my biography, you know. Now I 585 00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:58,836 Speaker 1: ask what do you need that you're afraid to ask for? 586 00:30:59,636 --> 00:31:02,276 Speaker 1: And it's hard, No, it's just hard. It's hard for 587 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:06,636 Speaker 1: me because it's very vulnerable. I'm tired. I need more joy, 588 00:31:06,916 --> 00:31:09,876 Speaker 1: I need more play, any more connect with Steve and 589 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,276 Speaker 1: my kids. It's all the stuff I'm really scared of. 590 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:15,916 Speaker 1: So disappointment was another one for me that kind of 591 00:31:15,956 --> 00:31:18,476 Speaker 1: had this Aha moment where, you know, I think it's 592 00:31:18,516 --> 00:31:22,516 Speaker 1: about sadness, but the content of disappointment is that it's 593 00:31:22,556 --> 00:31:26,236 Speaker 1: really about your expectations. It's a reaction to a violation 594 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:29,636 Speaker 1: of an expectation. And that felt like yet another one 595 00:31:29,716 --> 00:31:32,996 Speaker 1: that maybe you could work on yourself, like, you know, 596 00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 1: because I control those expectations, so maybe there's a point 597 00:31:36,836 --> 00:31:39,196 Speaker 1: where I need to update my expectations. You kind of 598 00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:41,196 Speaker 1: had this same aha moment when you were thinking about 599 00:31:41,236 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: disappointment too, right, Yeah. I mean Steve and I have 600 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 1: been together for thirty plus years. Maybe the biggest threat 601 00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:50,516 Speaker 1: to our marriage is kind of what I call stealth expectations, 602 00:31:50,956 --> 00:31:54,876 Speaker 1: these expectations that I have or he has that we 603 00:31:54,916 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 1: don't communicate with each other. But then we're just reeling 604 00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,956 Speaker 1: in disappointment and blame and anger. And I mean I 605 00:32:00,996 --> 00:32:03,476 Speaker 1: tell simple story in there about packing for Disney, you know, 606 00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:05,916 Speaker 1: and I have five books that I carry on and 607 00:32:05,916 --> 00:32:08,076 Speaker 1: he's like, what you're doing? And I said, I'm just 608 00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:11,676 Speaker 1: bringing all these books and he's like, should we talk 609 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:13,676 Speaker 1: about that? And I said, no, this is I'm so excited. 610 00:32:13,716 --> 00:32:15,156 Speaker 1: We're gonna be gone for a whole week and this 611 00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 1: is so cool. And he's like, we have seven kids 612 00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:21,676 Speaker 1: at Disney World for six days. The only thing you're 613 00:32:21,676 --> 00:32:23,396 Speaker 1: going to read is you have to be this tall 614 00:32:23,436 --> 00:32:25,716 Speaker 1: to ride. And I was like what, and he goes, 615 00:32:25,756 --> 00:32:27,916 Speaker 1: I just want to reality check these expectations with you, 616 00:32:27,956 --> 00:32:30,396 Speaker 1: if that's what kind of time off we need. We 617 00:32:30,476 --> 00:32:33,156 Speaker 1: picked the wrong place, you know, and we end up 618 00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:38,716 Speaker 1: having a great time, but it wasn't just riddled with disappointment. 619 00:32:38,876 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 1: And I think this is really the power of the book. 620 00:32:40,916 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 1: You went through eighty seven. We probably just had time 621 00:32:42,716 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 1: to go through ten. But what we're seeing is like 622 00:32:45,036 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 1: knowing where emotions are, what other emotions they're near, making 623 00:32:48,236 --> 00:32:52,356 Speaker 1: sure we're distinguishing them when they require distinguishing, and kind 624 00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 1: of recognizing their definitions. This is really helpful for figuring 625 00:32:57,316 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: out the kind of thing you need to do to 626 00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:00,996 Speaker 1: make sure your Disney vacation is working and the way 627 00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:03,316 Speaker 1: you want right And so, you know, do you think 628 00:33:03,356 --> 00:33:05,996 Speaker 1: that having this better map is really going to help 629 00:33:06,076 --> 00:33:08,556 Speaker 1: us in terms of flourishing, not even changing our emotions, 630 00:33:08,596 --> 00:33:12,156 Speaker 1: but just better understanding them. Can really help us navigate them. Yes, 631 00:33:12,436 --> 00:33:15,516 Speaker 1: I think that we are really desperate to find our 632 00:33:15,556 --> 00:33:18,556 Speaker 1: way back to ourselves and to each other. I think 633 00:33:18,676 --> 00:33:23,516 Speaker 1: it starts with language and self awareness and some deep 634 00:33:23,556 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 1: breaths and just trying to understand that we're emotional beings. 635 00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:29,916 Speaker 1: And if we don't have the language that reflects our experiences, 636 00:33:30,796 --> 00:33:33,356 Speaker 1: it gets really tricky to talk about how we feel 637 00:33:33,356 --> 00:33:36,316 Speaker 1: and ask for what we need. And I do feel 638 00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:38,396 Speaker 1: like there's some hope there. And what I hope is 639 00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:40,596 Speaker 1: I hope that couples read it together, and I hope 640 00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:43,156 Speaker 1: friends talk about it, and I hope that there are 641 00:33:43,156 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 1: some real conversations. And I think there are so many 642 00:33:45,996 --> 00:33:50,116 Speaker 1: people out there, yourself included, trying to make a dent 643 00:33:50,636 --> 00:33:53,836 Speaker 1: in a world that says how we feel doesn't matter, 644 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:57,636 Speaker 1: when really nothing matters if we don't understand how we feel. 645 00:33:59,756 --> 00:34:02,596 Speaker 1: Speaking with Brene really drove home the importance of trying 646 00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:05,996 Speaker 1: to commit to recognizing and describing my feelings more precisely, 647 00:34:06,716 --> 00:34:09,756 Speaker 1: especially when they're feelings that i'd kind prefer to run 648 00:34:09,756 --> 00:34:12,236 Speaker 1: away from. So I hope you'll join me in trying 649 00:34:12,236 --> 00:34:15,156 Speaker 1: to better map your emotions in the new year. The 650 00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:17,236 Speaker 1: next time I'm having a bad day at work, I'm 651 00:34:17,236 --> 00:34:19,356 Speaker 1: going to try to put my emotional thinking cap on 652 00:34:19,636 --> 00:34:22,876 Speaker 1: and identify what's really going on, whether I'm dealing with 653 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:27,916 Speaker 1: frustration or disappointment, or overwhelm or boredom. I'm also going 654 00:34:27,956 --> 00:34:30,436 Speaker 1: to try to more specifically notice what my body is 655 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:33,716 Speaker 1: experiencing and to see if there's some wiggle room and 656 00:34:33,796 --> 00:34:36,836 Speaker 1: how I describe it. The next time my heart is 657 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,756 Speaker 1: racing before a big new project, I'll try to reframe 658 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:43,796 Speaker 1: that as excitement rather than anxiety. And if nothing else, 659 00:34:43,836 --> 00:34:46,876 Speaker 1: I'm going to hold onto Brune's wonderful metaphor that my 660 00:34:46,996 --> 00:34:49,956 Speaker 1: feelings are part of a vast and layered and perhaps 661 00:34:49,956 --> 00:34:53,796 Speaker 1: even beautiful emotional landscape. When I start to feel lost 662 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:56,196 Speaker 1: or overwhelmed by a certain feeling in the new year, 663 00:34:56,836 --> 00:34:58,756 Speaker 1: I'm going to take a moment to be grateful that 664 00:34:58,876 --> 00:35:02,156 Speaker 1: I get to experience such a spectacular emotional landscape in 665 00:35:02,236 --> 00:35:05,436 Speaker 1: the first place. I might even pause to marvel at 666 00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:11,156 Speaker 1: the scenery. Now that Brette has helped me recognize and 667 00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:14,556 Speaker 1: name my emotions with more precision, my next task is 668 00:35:14,596 --> 00:35:17,076 Speaker 1: to figure out how to deal with all the ichy 669 00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:20,996 Speaker 1: ones I am saying it. I'm noticing that I'm feeling 670 00:35:21,036 --> 00:35:24,156 Speaker 1: said I'm not good enough, there's no point in even trying. 671 00:35:24,556 --> 00:35:27,836 Speaker 1: I'm noticing that this is my I'm not good enough story. 672 00:35:28,156 --> 00:35:32,556 Speaker 1: When you do this, you aren't ignoring your difficult experience, 673 00:35:32,676 --> 00:35:36,796 Speaker 1: but you're creating space in it, and that will be 674 00:35:36,836 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 1: the topic of the next episode of The Happiness Lab 675 00:35:39,996 --> 00:35:45,316 Speaker 1: with me Doctor Laurie Santos. If you love this show 676 00:35:45,356 --> 00:35:49,196 Speaker 1: and others from Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to pushkin Plus. 677 00:35:49,756 --> 00:35:53,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 678 00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:56,276 Speaker 1: and uninterrupted listening for only four ninety nine a month. 679 00:35:56,956 --> 00:35:59,836 Speaker 1: As a special gift to pushkin Plus subscribers, I'll be 680 00:35:59,836 --> 00:36:02,756 Speaker 1: sharing a series of six guided meditations to help you 681 00:36:02,796 --> 00:36:06,196 Speaker 1: practice the lessons we've learned from our experts. To check 682 00:36:06,196 --> 00:36:09,516 Speaker 1: them out, look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscrib ops. 683 00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:16,396 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley, 684 00:36:16,556 --> 00:36:20,436 Speaker 1: Emily Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was 685 00:36:20,476 --> 00:36:24,356 Speaker 1: composed by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering 686 00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:29,156 Speaker 1: by Evan Viola. Special thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, John Schnars, 687 00:36:29,316 --> 00:36:33,956 Speaker 1: Carli Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Brandt Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 688 00:36:34,196 --> 00:36:39,076 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. 689 00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:42,516 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 690 00:36:42,596 --> 00:36:46,876 Speaker 1: and me doctor Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 691 00:36:47,036 --> 00:36:50,436 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 692 00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts,