1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hi, this is new due to the virus I'm recording 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: from home. See you may notice a difference in audio 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: quality on this episode of News World. We are in 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: the midst of an astonishing new culture war playing out 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: in our streets, workplaces, universities, schools and homes in the 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: name of social justice and identity politics. Narrow sets of 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: interests now dominate the agenda as society becomes more and 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: more tribal. Identity issues are fueled by the propaganda media 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: and social media, presenting a kind of mental malware designed 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: to corrupt our thinking. We need to bring common sense 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: into the discussion around this generation's most complicated cultural issues. 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm pleased to welcome my guests. Douglas Murray, author and 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: journalists based in Britain. His latest publication, The Madness of Crowds, 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: is a bestseller and book of the Year for The 15 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Times of London and The Sunday Times. Murray is an 16 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: associate editor for The Spectator magazine, and he is a 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: regular contributor to the National Review. What glad you end 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: up thinking about this and writing books? Because I ran 19 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: across the originally because I pulled up the old Scottish 20 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: book from the middle of the nineteenth century. Oh, yes, 21 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: terrific book. Yeah, and that led me to you. Ah, 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: so interesting. Yeah, So what led you to decide to 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: write this, because it's really a very daring and provocative book. Well, 24 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: it's lots of things. I'd noticed for some years that 25 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: there were a set of very strange things going on, 26 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: things that I now recognized to be a form of 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,559 Speaker 1: societal malware. That is, things that are being injected into 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: our society, into our discourse, which seem intended to derange us, 29 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: and are indeed having that effect. Act the fact that 30 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: in the last decade, in particular, particularly since the two 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: thousand and eight financial crisis, we've just seen a set 32 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: of cultural issues just raw back and raw back in 33 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: a more dementing manner than ever. And really, I know 34 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: what I noticed was that this was happening in four areas, 35 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: in particular, everything to do with people who are gay, 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: everything to do with relations between the sex is, everything 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: to do with race, and particularly the newest one, everything 38 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: to do with trans and that we were losing the 39 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: ability to think and even speak about these issues, and 40 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: we're being told versions of them that were demonstrably visibly 41 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: not just untrue but malevolent, and I wanted to explain 42 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: how I think that's happened and to help other people 43 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: feel their way through all of this madness. I agree 44 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: with you, and I often think of some of the 45 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: waves of adness would go through the Middle Ages, the 46 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: Flogolante and others. What do you think happened that suddenly 47 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: you have sort of a catalytic moment and large elements 48 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: in society lose their mind. I think it's quite a 49 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: lot of things. One is, when the economics goes wrong, 50 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: other things start to happen. And we know that from history, 51 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: great revolutionary moments tend to occur because the economics have 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: gone wrong. And in our time, the economics went badly 53 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: wrong in two thousand and eight, and we sort of 54 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: assumed that nothing would flow from it. I think that 55 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: what has flowed from it is that there are a 56 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: set of ideas that were waiting in the wings, and 57 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: in America in particular, this malevolent set of ideas it 58 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: was waiting in the wings, is this set of ideas 59 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: that interprets everything to do with our existence as rotating 60 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: around the same set of issues. As I say, everything 61 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: to do with racism, sexism, homophobia, that we should best 62 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: understand the world by seeing it as a set of 63 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: rights struggles, a demand for rights for evermore niche issues, 64 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: and an interpretation of our societies as being primarily best 65 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: understood by seeing them as hierarchical entities that need to 66 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: be assailed and torn down. This is an interpretation of 67 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: our societies. I think it's a malevolent one, and one 68 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: that's demonstrated be going to cause great unhappiness. But I 69 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: think that one of the things that we've allowed to 70 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: happen is this solitary interpretation of our society. It's an 71 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: interpretation that has been worked at, particularly from the American 72 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: Academy since about the nineteen seventies, and now has just 73 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: blown out onto the streets because it's been taught to 74 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: and imbibed by an entire generation of people. It's kind 75 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: of amazing. I'd take it back to Morocusa. In early 76 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: six I went back as partner trying to understand what's 77 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: happening in the US. I went back and looked at 78 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: the period nineteen sixty seven to seventy two when we 79 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: had two thousand and five hundred bombings and there was 80 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: a really intense left wing political revolutionary movement that had 81 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: not metastasized into all the other opportunities that you described, 82 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: but it was really very serious and they were really 83 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: very determined to tear down and destroy the system that 84 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: they had grown up in. They were defeated by the 85 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:39,919 Speaker 1: early seventies and basically one underground to the academic world, 86 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: the news media, etc. And then just kept growing. Today 87 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: they're the dominant energy force, for example, on our campuses 88 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: by huge margins. There was no countervailing repudiation. We haven't 89 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: found Burke explaining why the French Revolution is crazy. We 90 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: haven't had. Your book is a contribution as direction, but 91 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: we really haven't had to me effectively stand up and 92 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: begin to explain why militant repudiation as of a gentleman 93 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: response to people who are crazy. All of these strands 94 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: go into it. There's a couple of others. One is, obviously, 95 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: whatever one's view of it, the decline of religion as 96 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: an explanation for our existence and what we're meant to 97 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: be doing in this life in the absence of a 98 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: religious narrative, Other pseudo religious narratives flood in, and what 99 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: is this new movement but a religious narrative? You mentioned 100 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: flagelence earlier, and of course we've actually seen footage in 101 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: recent weeks of flagelence back on the streets, this time 102 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: in America, with some footage I think it was like 103 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: a lot of crazy things in our time from Portland, Oregon, 104 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: of white men flaying themselves until they had welts on 105 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: their backs and black Americans rushing over them. Is saying 106 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: don't do this, We don't want you to do this. 107 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: But there is this religiosity in the movement that we're 108 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: talking about. And there is this other issue which you 109 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: just mentioned, which is this sublimated Marxism not too sublimated 110 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: in some cases. And I mentioned, as you know, in 111 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: The Manners of Crowds, the way in which certain academics 112 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: in the Marxist and Neomarxist tradition say this completely openly. 113 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: The working class by the nineteen eighties had badly let 114 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: them down, because the working class never showed up for 115 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: the revolution in significant enough numbers in countries like yours 116 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: and mine, and so these Marxists and Neomarxists went out 117 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: to look for new groups they could cohere to form 118 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: the revolution this time, and certain of them were completely 119 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: open about this as I cite in the madness of 120 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: crowds people who said, we're going to need the women, 121 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: and we're going to need gays and others. We're going 122 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: to need racial minorities. These groups will give us the 123 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: revolution that the working class failed to provide. Run who 124 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: was a Marxist economic historian, wrote a piece in ninety 125 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: one and said, now that Marxism in the Soviet model 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: has failed, we need a replacement, and he proposed that 127 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: the environment was a great issue around which to build 128 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:24,559 Speaker 1: a new movement to fundamentally challenge capitalism. I actually taught 129 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: in the early years of the environmental movement, participated in 130 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: the Second Earth Day. But there's a pattern, which you 131 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: also mentioned. You take it into zones of cultural dialogue, 132 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: but if you go back, there's this recurring pattern of catastrophism. 133 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: Have Alic writing things which are demonstrably fifty five years 134 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: later insane. None of the things that he talked about, 135 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: Britain would be starving by the year two thousand something, 136 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: he actually put on one of his books. None of 137 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: the staff occurred, and it just didn't matter. There's a 138 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: recent example. We don't even have to go back there far. 139 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: Just before the arrival of coronavirus, we were all being 140 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: told that we lived in an environmental crisis. Governments were 141 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: being asked to agree that we were in a climate emergency, 142 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: and governments in Europe did agree to that. Many opposition 143 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: parties in Europe and America were demanding that our governments 144 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: agreed that we were in a climate emergency. And one 145 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: of the fascinating things about this is that we start 146 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: to see, among other things, the degree to which certain 147 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: people are completely sincere about this. I mean, there are 148 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: maniacs and fanatics, Extinction Rebellion being a very good example, 149 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: who don't even try to disguise. They even dress up 150 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 1: as fanatics from the Middle Ages for their sort of 151 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: theatrical protests. But along with that are these other people 152 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: for whom this is essentially I think performative performative rage. 153 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: They say that we are in an emergency, but when 154 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: a real emergency comes along, they actually behaved totally differently. 155 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: If we had been in the climate emergency that we 156 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: were being told by Greta Thunberg's Weird Disciples in the 157 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: early weeks of this year, if we were in that emergency, 158 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: then we would indeed have seen what we've seen in 159 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: recent months because of the Corona shutdown, we would have 160 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: seen people completely confined to their households. Yet what happened 161 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: in the alleged climate emergency was that people carried on 162 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: life as normal and just said we were living in 163 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: an emergency. So a lot of this is the difference 164 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: between what people are willing to perform and a reality 165 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: that they must somewhere into it. Do you think that 166 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: some of the catastrophism in whatever zone we decide the 167 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: next catastrophe is some of that? Also is a reflection 168 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,839 Speaker 1: or the secular society's need to transcendent events. Yes, transcendent 169 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: events and narratives that give life meaning and a sense 170 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: of purpose. Of course, and to an extent, a lot 171 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: of what we're seeing at the moment is the product 172 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: of a version of history being taught to young people, 173 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: in particular in America and Western Europe, which teaches history 174 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: as a story of emancipation narratives, that is that history 175 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: was about getting freer and freer, more and more people 176 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: getting a franchise, and you get to the stage we're 177 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: currently at, we are all legally equal in our societies. 178 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: That doesn't, of course, mean that we're all equally wealthy, 179 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: equally beautiful, or equally talented, but we do have equal 180 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: rights in countries like America and Britain. But for a 181 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: lot of people, that revolutionary emancipatory narrative is so incredibly heady. 182 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: They've been taught that it has given not just meaning 183 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: but worthiness to people who've gone before them, and they 184 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: would like to act in that tradition. And that's why 185 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: we see people in twenty twenty portraying countries like America 186 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: and Britain as if we are slave countries today, is 187 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: slave running, slave owning countries today, claiming that we live 188 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: in a sort of Margaret Atwood dystopian relationship between the sexes, 189 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: society and all of this, because if you can portray 190 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: your society as that sexist, racist, homophobic and so on, 191 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: then you can stand athwart it and say I am 192 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: in the legacy of Martin Luther King and the Stonewall Rioters, 193 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: and I am fighting an equal dragon. And this gives 194 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: a significant number of people a sense of purpose in 195 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: their lives. And I think that as well as refuting 196 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: the specific allegations that are made, I think it is 197 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: a job of more adults to say, this isn't a 198 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: good way to find meaning. This will lead to an 199 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: unhappy and unfulfilled life, not least because you will find 200 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: yourself trying to slay dragons that no longer exist. I 201 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: like the imagery you're developing there, because it just sort 202 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: of hit me. You could write a very cool book 203 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: about the dragon slayers. Maybe the titles should be desperately 204 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: seeking Dragons, because as each dragon disappears, and as modern 205 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: society in fact solves the problem, then there has to 206 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: be a desperate search for the next dragon. These people 207 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: need the game of let me trump you. Part of 208 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: what you're describing is a compulsory rush to extremism. So 209 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: if you take, for example, the antimil cycle, whatever last 210 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: year's repudiation of men was, if I'm a feminist, I 211 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: now have to come up with an even more intense 212 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: and harsh repudiation so that I'm showing progress in the 213 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: antimail business. And the people who founded Black Lives Matter, 214 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: who are all three Marxists, even they in their descriptions 215 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: of who are to be involved, a black transgender person 216 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: would be seated at the head of the table by definition, yes, 217 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: and you would come down the list and finally, at 218 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: the other end of the table you would get to 219 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: somebody who was engaged in traditional sexual identities and therefore unworthy. 220 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: The white interrasexual man would be at the lowest run. 221 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: The strange hierarchy which has been created, which we've seen 222 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: all through our lives emerge, whereby instead of being blind 223 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: to identity traits, they've become all consuming and all important. 224 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: And the second thing is this very strange issue as 225 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: touch on there with the as it were, the black 226 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: transmagical person. I'd be very struck in recent weeks, in 227 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: particular in the Black Lives Matter protests, that this thing 228 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: of the black trans person being at the top of 229 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: the tree, so that you have, for instance, I saw 230 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: a photo just this morning of a protest in the 231 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: UK with a whole pile of white, presumably educated, well educated, 232 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: probably too well educated, young British women marching along with 233 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: banners saying Black trans lives matter. And you think it's 234 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: even more bizarre than the Black Lives Matter slogan, which 235 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: hectors as if there are people going around saying black 236 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: lives don't matter. But here are people saying black trans 237 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: lives matter, as if there are people going around saying 238 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: black trans lives don't matter. But what is interesting about 239 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: it is, where are these black trans people that you 240 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: are so completely obsessed by that you've turned them into 241 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: these all consuming and I would argue, strangely magical beings 242 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: who are needed to give your movement purpose. We have 243 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: this strange hierarchy of magical people who bestow some blessed 244 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: presence on the boring, mere heterosexual, white Western woman or man, 245 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: and who they seek out for even when they exist 246 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: in as they presumably do, exceptionally small numbers. It's almost 247 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: like the rarer you are, the greater, the multiplier of 248 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: your influence. Yes, and there's so much that's wrong with this. 249 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: It is completely opposed to the idea of knowledge and 250 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: of education and of learning. It's also, by the way, 251 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: it completely opposed the ideas of creativity and imagination, because 252 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: all of this suggests that we are only what our 253 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: characteristics can make us. So if we're a man, we 254 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: cannot deal with or imagine ourselves in any way to 255 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: have an understanding of women and vice versa. And that 256 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: if you're white, you can't understand anyone black, and if 257 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: you're heterosexual, you can't understand anyone gay, and so on 258 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 1: and so on until you get to the black trans 259 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: person who nobody can understand but everybody has to talk 260 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: about all the time. And the oddity of this is that, 261 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: of course you can have certain characteristics which may be 262 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: quite rare, such as being a black trans person, which 263 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: proportionately is an unusual thing to be, but it doesn't 264 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: bestow any special knowledge, and the level beneath that is 265 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that you can impart any special wisdom. 266 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: I would submit that a white man who has read 267 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: a lot of books and traveled widely and traveled and 268 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: seen different cultures and acquired knowledge is going to know 269 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: more than a black trans person who hasn't read very much, 270 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: hasn't gone around the world very much. But our era 271 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: says that the first of those must submit to and 272 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: listen to the second, and not just on some issues, 273 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: but apparently on all. And this is completely against the 274 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: idea that we, whatever our characteristics, whether we're black, white, gay, straight, trans, whatever, 275 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: can actually acquire knowledge in this life by speaking with 276 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: people and learning. It's completely against that. It says your 277 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: set from the get go. In a sense, it's a 278 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: new cast system. If this were to continue and become dominant, 279 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: you would generate a cast structure. They will be truly weird. Yes. 280 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: The only thing that might preclude it happening, as you know, 281 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: is that on this particular occasion, the sort of magical 282 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: Brahmin class are too small in number, and the number 283 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: of people that they are trying to depict as the 284 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: worst people happen to be the majority. For instance, in 285 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: a majority white country like Britain, that to be white 286 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: is de facto to be an oppressor and a bigot. 287 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: And I cannot see a movement succeeding long term that 288 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: says that heterosexual people are worse than gay people and 289 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: that men have to step down and shut up. I 290 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: cannot see unless the intimidation narrative continues in more and 291 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: more inventive ways. Even then, I can't quite see that 292 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: this can work simply in a numbers terms. I've started 293 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: doing a series of podcast entitle Shut Your Mouth, in 294 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: which we look at the ways in which a tolitary 295 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: and left gets people fired. You say the wrong thing 296 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: and you're gone. The last time they tried this, in 297 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: the late sixties or seventies, it did collapse because in 298 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: the end people just said that's carbage, and they were 299 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: willing to do it. But interestingly, even back then, you 300 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: had a hierarchy, and that the people who belong to 301 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: the most radical white groups were desperate for the approval 302 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: of the Black Panthers because they had decided in their 303 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: worldview that the black Panthers were a morally superior group, 304 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: and the Black Panther attitude was that these people were crazy. 305 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: There was no circumstances the Black Panthers wanted them to 306 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: be anywhere near them, because they actually misunderstood why they 307 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: were called black Panthers. Some of those people who sought 308 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: to be fellow travelers with the panthers, seeing the violence, 309 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: not just the violenus of the retric but the actual 310 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: violence that the Panthers were willing to use. I think 311 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: that affected some people, and you had an even lad 312 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: split among the white groups because the weatherman, for example, 313 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: ultimately were much more violent than the panthers. The weatherman 314 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: probably set twenty five hundred bombs. The Panthers had nothing 315 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: like that. They were direct action with pistols, there were 316 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: never very many of them. But part of the difference 317 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: was in that area you still had a press corps, 318 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: which wanted to somehow unify the country. They were anti segregation, 319 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: but not committed to a world in which radical values 320 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: should dominate. Today, I would argue that at least in America, 321 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: our news media is as radical as any other element 322 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: that's out there. And so you really are saying places 323 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: like The New York Times totally taken over now, So 324 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: then the ability to communicate has changed very dramatically. To 325 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: what extent do you think that the rise of the 326 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: social media Google, Twitter, Facebook, To what extent do you 327 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: think they've been a part of this maximization of weirdness? 328 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: I think is a huge part. I mean, firstly, on 329 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: the old media, an awful lot of things are going on, 330 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: and in America I think that's perhaps the worst of all, 331 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: in that very few organs of opinion there and be 332 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: opened and trusted, and that is a disaster, because of course, 333 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: if we can't agree on the facts on what deserves 334 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: to be covered, then no wonder that we end up 335 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: disagreeing on solutions and answers to problems. When you have 336 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: these sorts of only twenty seven policemen injured yesterday in 337 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: a peaceful protest sort of headline, then you've got no 338 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: hope of really answering anything, because you haven't had the 339 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: problem honestly presented to you. And I think that's come 340 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: about because of something I've described in the past as 341 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: being the way in which certain stories come along that 342 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: the press cannot report honestly because if they did, it 343 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: might lead the public to consider answers that the media 344 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: in question don't want them to think about. This is 345 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: a significant problem in all of our sense making apparatus 346 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: at the moment. As for the social media companies, this 347 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: is a major part of the rangement. I address it 348 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: briefly in my chapter on tech and the Madness of 349 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: crowds as you know, which is to a great extent, 350 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,239 Speaker 1: the social media companies have added to this problem and 351 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: made us have to run on the treadmill of the 352 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: news at a speed faster than our legs can carry us. 353 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: We can't keep up with a flow of information, we 354 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: can't agree on which information flows we should use, and 355 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: we are zooming off with different narratives of our own 356 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: as a result. And I think, to return to this analogy, 357 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: I use I think the social media companies are giving 358 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,479 Speaker 1: us forms of societal malware. That is, they say to 359 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: us we are updating your mental software today, and in fact, 360 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: what they're doing is persuading us to download mental malware 361 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: that is designed to corrupt the system of our brains 362 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: and the system of our thinking. Companies like Twitter provably 363 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: distort the information flows we're getting. They provably give us 364 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,479 Speaker 1: things we don't want and pretend that they're things that 365 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: we do. I use the example of Google image searches 366 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: in the Manners of Crowds and demonstrate the way in 367 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: which Google image searches pretends that it's doing one thing 368 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: and actually is doing another, so that it pretends that 369 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: it's giving the person what they're asking for when they 370 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,199 Speaker 1: ask for a particular set of images, but actually gives 371 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: them something that's meant to be improving, so that the 372 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: image searches come back with things that are avertally not 373 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: just anti racists, but advocating a specific line in the 374 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: anti racism narrative, not just pro gay, but anti anti 375 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: gay or anti anyone who might be perceived to be 376 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: anti gay, so that we can no longer trust the 377 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: search engines. And this, of course, particularly for a young 378 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: person growing up in this is absolutely dementing, because it's 379 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: hard enough for those of us whose brains were formed 380 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: before this revolution in thinking and technology and the presentation 381 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: of knowledge, And it is almost completely bewildering for somebody 382 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: who has grown up at the same time as this 383 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: revolution has been going on in the way in which 384 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: we acquire facts and knowledge. So when you look out 385 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: over the next ten to twenty years, are you optimistic 386 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: there we will come out of the circle of madness? 387 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: Or are you expected to get worse? I expected to 388 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: get a lot worse. I believe that at the beginning 389 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: of the coronavirus earlier this year, there was something very 390 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: interesting in particularly my own country in Britain, which was 391 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: that we had been said in recent years to be 392 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: a divided country, but in fact we did listen and 393 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: follow the vice of a conservative prime minister, acting on 394 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: scientific advice, and stayed in our homes for months on end. 395 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: And that was a very interesting moment for me, because 396 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 1: I thought, well, we've been saying we were divided, but 397 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,239 Speaker 1: actually we did unite when we were told to do 398 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: something that we had persuaded was for our good. Whether 399 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: that was correct or not is of course, perhaps a 400 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: question for another day. But this showed that there are 401 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: residual pockets of trust in our societies. I think America 402 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: demonstrated that even a virus couldn't be seen without it 403 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: being seen through a pro or anti Trump prison, and 404 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: I think as a particular American tragedy in that. But 405 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: what has been interesting in the last two months, particularly 406 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: since Minnesota and the death of George Floyd, has been 407 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: that actually these things were rowed back. Everything I write 408 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: around the manners of crowds as rowed back with a 409 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: greater unpleasantness than happened before. And that suggests to me 410 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: that these identity issues have now become completely implied aunted 411 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: as the means by which people are expected to understand 412 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: our societies. Now, I think that the best answer to 413 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: that is a small c conservative answer, which is to say, 414 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: these things that we are being told are the answers 415 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: are in fact dementing. And if you would like an 416 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: answer to that, it is to look to a different 417 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 1: way of thinking and a different way of reacting to things, 418 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: to see the past, for instance, as a guide to 419 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: you and a friendly, helpful guide for you in your life. 420 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: That it's much better to see the past in this light, 421 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: for instance, than to see it as this thing we 422 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: scour through to attack and land, bast and assault and 423 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 1: a sail and to pull down. To take a quote 424 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: I was reading recently, to see history as us standing 425 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: on the shoulders of giants in order to see further, 426 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: and that the reason we can see further today is 427 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: because of what we're standing on, not this crazy, dementing 428 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: revolutionary narrative that says we must tear down everything on 429 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: which we've been standing, but to say there's a reason 430 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 1: why we are where we are, and acknowledging that the 431 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: past is never perfect, like the present is never perfect. Nevertheless, 432 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: it is what we're building on. This is a very deep, 433 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,239 Speaker 1: fundamental alteration in which we should be encouraging people to 434 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: change the way we're looking at the past as well 435 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: as the present. And I think we can do that, 436 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: but it relies on enough people with a memory of 437 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: how we used to think and know having the confidence 438 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: to say the thing you are being offered in this 439 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: age is bad for you, and we have an interpretation, 440 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: an understanding, I would say, indeed, you might even say, 441 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: a sort of resolution with our past and an understanding 442 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: how we might approach the future which is better suited. 443 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: Not just to get to a better place but better 444 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: suited for you in your life to live your life 445 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: with more meaning and with more forgiveness and understanding of 446 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: what it is we're doing here than this zero sum, 447 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: retributive revolutionary pose. I really appreciate you're taking the time 448 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: to share with us today. I really think what you're 449 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: doing is extraordinarily important. And the europe pioneer who is 450 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: going to have a very very large impact, well, that's 451 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: very kind you. It's great pleasure to be with you 452 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: and a great pleasure to be able to spend this 453 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: time talking today. Thank you to my guest Douglas Murray. 454 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: You can read more about the culture Wars and his 455 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: book The Madness of Crowds on our show page at 456 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: newtsworld dot com. Newts World is produced by Giving Sweet 457 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: sixteen and iHeart Media. Our executive producer is Delie Myers 458 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: and our producer is Guernsey Slat. The artwork for the 459 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: show was created was steep and special. Thanks the team 460 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: at Gingwich three sixty. Please email me with your questions 461 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: at Gingwish three sixty dot com slash questions. I'll answer 462 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: them in future episodes. If you've been enjoying news World, 463 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 464 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 465 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. On the next 466 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: episode of Latest World, Sean Hannity has a new book 467 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: coming out this Tuesday called Blue, Free or Die America 468 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: and the World and the Brink about the left on 469 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: dying commitment to turn America into a land our parents, 470 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: founders and frameworks would not RECOGNI us. At the heart 471 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: of our conversation, though, is our thirty year friendship and 472 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: how Sean got his start in radio. I am New Gangwish. 473 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: This is News World.