WEBVTT - Adult Education: When True Crime Gets Real

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<v Speaker 1>Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi honey, Hello, Hello, what you got from me?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I've been looking at ways to up upgrade my

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<v Speaker 3>scaring game, you're what? We have this thing. We have

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<v Speaker 3>this game that we've played on't where ice.

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<v Speaker 2>It's fun, such a fun game because you.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually marriage to scale me. Okay, and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 3>try and have to get I'm going to have to

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<v Speaker 3>get more creative.

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<v Speaker 2>So what he's saying is is that we have I

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<v Speaker 2>have scared him more times than he has scared me.

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<v Speaker 2>We like to well, I've only done it.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you believe that statement?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? I do, because illusion eventually we will do a

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<v Speaker 2>He's he has this thing where he records trying to

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<v Speaker 2>scare me. But I know now where he is when

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<v Speaker 2>he's doing like I just know, like when it's quiet,

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<v Speaker 2>I know that he's most likely going to be around

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<v Speaker 2>door number one. So and then my first thing is

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<v Speaker 2>I'll walk into a room many times that he has

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<v Speaker 2>these recordings. I'm looking now for the phone to be like,

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<v Speaker 2>I know you're right there, and the other day you

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<v Speaker 2>had you had it facing where I could actually see

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<v Speaker 2>myself as opposed to facing it the other way. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, Alan, really, do you.

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<v Speaker 3>Want to tell him about the laundering room one? Which

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<v Speaker 3>one the one that I told you I asked you

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<v Speaker 3>I can collect my water bottle from the laundry room

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<v Speaker 3>because you thought I was in the gym.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was the one that actually scared me.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually, I think you might yourself a little bit.

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<v Speaker 2>That one was scary, but you didn't get that one

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<v Speaker 2>on camera.

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<v Speaker 3>But anyway, my point is I'm starting to step up,

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<v Speaker 3>so I.

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<v Speaker 2>Know how I feel about that, Like for what is like,

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<v Speaker 2>what is the purpose of this? Because I've only scared

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<v Speaker 2>you now twice and I stopped because I'm like, you know, it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Because I'm competitive. It's getting to the point where you're walking.

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<v Speaker 2>You're doing it because I'm now, you're not scaring this.

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<v Speaker 2>So every time you try, it's like you've now you

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<v Speaker 2>have about fifteen fails and so you're do so okay.

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<v Speaker 2>So the point is, because you haven't scared me, You're

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<v Speaker 2>going to continue till you can scare me.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm going to get it on camera because it's

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<v Speaker 3>annoying me that So what happens is the house goes silent, right.

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<v Speaker 2>If the kids are in bed, The best one was

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<v Speaker 2>Jay's because Mommy, come in here. Alan's not going to

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<v Speaker 2>scare you. And I said, thanks, baby, Alan, get away

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<v Speaker 2>from the.

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<v Speaker 3>Door underneath the bed.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like this sweet. I was like, you're such

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<v Speaker 2>my little boy, Mommy. It's okay, you can come in.

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<v Speaker 2>Alan won't scary.

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<v Speaker 3>I love his under the bed for fourteen minutes.

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<v Speaker 2>Literally, or like when romans like stomach will gurgle and

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<v Speaker 2>like you're holding him and I'm like.

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<v Speaker 3>By Alan, oh my ankles will click.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, but go ahead. So you're doing this because do

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<v Speaker 2>you want to.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's got to the point now where if the

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<v Speaker 3>kids are in bed and the house is silent, and

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<v Speaker 3>I try and hide, you're you're actually like trying to

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<v Speaker 3>see from there. You're trying to send he from there.

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<v Speaker 3>So therefore you're walking around thinking he's beying that door,

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<v Speaker 3>he's buying that door. You step up.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to tell you one thing that's where you

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<v Speaker 2>will find yourself in a hotel room if anything involves

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<v Speaker 2>you going out. Because one of my worst fares when

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<v Speaker 2>I'm home alone and I you know, we have a

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<v Speaker 2>very wooded area behind our backyard. I think like a

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<v Speaker 2>movie and a true Crime Brain, which is very exciting

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<v Speaker 2>because we have a true crime podcaster coming on for

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<v Speaker 2>today's show. So this leads so well into this. But

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<v Speaker 2>I like, when you're out of town, I have these

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<v Speaker 2>like terrible visions or thoughts of from you know, even

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<v Speaker 2>just think, Okay, I can be in a shower and

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<v Speaker 2>what if someone comes around the corner and then I

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<v Speaker 2>get this is where I die or murdered or paranoia.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not an over I'm assive.

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<v Speaker 2>But I just I, you know I. And then we

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<v Speaker 2>have our entire wooded it's all wooded in the back,

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<v Speaker 2>so trees, and it's when we have no windows like cover,

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<v Speaker 2>like privacy.

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<v Speaker 3>You're creating a very easy pictchre for creepy people.

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<v Speaker 2>Then maybe right, but I'm just saying, like, yes, we

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<v Speaker 2>will find you. And there are cameras, so I want

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<v Speaker 2>to say that, but I still have that image where

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<v Speaker 2>because there aren't shades, I have this fear where I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to look out one night and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>see like a person standing there and I swear to

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<v Speaker 2>God if that is you one of those nights, I

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<v Speaker 2>will like I will just send you your like throw

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<v Speaker 2>your keys out the door and a little duffel bag

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<v Speaker 2>because you were not welcome back in the house. If

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<v Speaker 2>you do that, I can't handle that.

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<v Speaker 3>The lifelike masks on Amazon, I will one of them

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<v Speaker 3>is even get real stubble.

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<v Speaker 2>And seriously like it does a big no. Can we

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<v Speaker 2>just do what you've been doing recently, the half attempts

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<v Speaker 2>of trying to scare me. I just couldn't do that.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's really sweet that you want to.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just it's just a funny game because there's no

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<v Speaker 3>go out to the point where you're laughing at me

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<v Speaker 3>because I can't scare you. Yes, so I'm gonna have

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<v Speaker 3>to be creative.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I can't say you did something and I can

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<v Speaker 2>tell you. We can tell you guys the following week.

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<v Speaker 2>But he did something that involved wearing a mask. But

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<v Speaker 2>again we can't say how or where, but we can

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<v Speaker 2>tell you next week. So stay tuned.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Bedroom Secrets.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it involves with something that I'm not allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>say something, so but we can say how you tried

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<v Speaker 2>to scare me with a certain mask. But because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not allowed to talk about it yet, I can't say

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<v Speaker 2>it anyway, So you don't even have You don't even know.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought even know what you're talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>Perfect you'll find out next week too. Anyway, speaking of

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<v Speaker 2>though we have today's episode, we've a true crime podcaster

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<v Speaker 2>coming on. It's a new show on iHeart Podcast. It's

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<v Speaker 2>called The Unborn, and I'm I'm a big true crime fan.

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<v Speaker 2>I love it. It's one of those things where I forget.

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<v Speaker 2>I forget how much I love it because there were

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<v Speaker 2>times when I used to listen to the dateline podcasts

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<v Speaker 2>all the time, and that's probably where my brain goes

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<v Speaker 2>to like the freaky stuff, and why I have such

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<v Speaker 2>a hard time with We watch a lot of those

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<v Speaker 2>true crime documentaries on Netflix or any other streaming service,

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<v Speaker 2>but I have a hard time turning my brain off

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<v Speaker 2>from it, which is why I'm like, all right, babe,

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<v Speaker 2>let's watch the Kardashians now for the next hour. But

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<v Speaker 2>I am hooked on this Unborn podcast now. It's so good.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you like true crime?

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<v Speaker 3>I love I love true crime, and I'm actually intrigued

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<v Speaker 3>because Tresha has got a background and film and TV.

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<v Speaker 3>So why she's decided they've decided to make this a

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<v Speaker 3>podcast and not a movie or a TV show, Well

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<v Speaker 3>that striegues me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all right, let's get our guest, Tricia la Fash

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<v Speaker 2>coming on. She is the podcast host of the new

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<v Speaker 2>iHeartRadio show called Unborn, the true crime series. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>true story. Let's get her on.

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<v Speaker 4>Hi, guys, Hi, how are you nice to meet you?

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<v Speaker 4>I'm Tricia, I'm Jana.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Alan. Alan lovely to meet you and chat

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<v Speaker 2>with you, and we'll just hop right in because I

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<v Speaker 2>just finished episode three when I need to know when

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<v Speaker 2>episode four is coming because I'm like a true crime girl,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was just saying, how I like, my brain

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<v Speaker 2>just always goes to like when I'm home alone, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>like that true crime Like I'm always freaking out and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just he was like, no, that's paranoia. But either way,

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<v Speaker 2>like it's still I just get so sucked into these

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<v Speaker 2>things and then it's just wild. In this story, I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>how has this not been made into like a Lifetime

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<v Speaker 2>movie yet? Like I'm like, I have we seen this

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<v Speaker 2>story because you've changed the name, so like I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to google to see what happened, but I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>the actual names. So the people because of you're not

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to or what was that?

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<v Speaker 5>Well mine, you know, it was kind of my decision

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<v Speaker 5>because I was concerned.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm a true crime fanatic.

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<v Speaker 5>Like love, love, love, and I loved the process of

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<v Speaker 5>making this, and I was so intrigued by the story.

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<v Speaker 5>I thought it was so compelling. It really was a

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<v Speaker 5>crime that I had never heard of before. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>similarly to like when Gypsy Rose Blanchard came on the

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<v Speaker 5>scene with Munchausen's this pseudosysis was not your normal cookie

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<v Speaker 5>cutter situation, but I had a lot of concern about

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<v Speaker 5>hurting somebody, you know, the woman.

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<v Speaker 4>Who did what she did.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, it was just kind of like a tightrope

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<v Speaker 5>situation where Jared wanted to tell his story and so

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<v Speaker 5>we wanted to help him tell it, but I just

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<v Speaker 5>wanted to make sure that we did it in a

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<v Speaker 5>way that it wouldn't readily identify her if she didn't

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<v Speaker 5>want to be identified.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a semi question around that, because I get

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<v Speaker 2>that piece of it, but also, is it known to

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<v Speaker 2>the public the story.

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<v Speaker 4>It's not. No one's ever written about it, nobody's.

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<v Speaker 2>Ever in the news. It wasn't in the news.

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<v Speaker 4>It wasn't in the news.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So okay, got it, gues. So it's not leading

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<v Speaker 2>to like Okay, got I gotta get it. But is

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<v Speaker 2>this is Jared's name made up too?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, both of them.

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<v Speaker 5>He has actually since gone rogue and decided to tell

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<v Speaker 5>everybody it's him, so we'll see what happens with that.

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<v Speaker 4>But yes, it just fell into our laps.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm actually shocked that nobody ever wrote anything about this,

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<v Speaker 5>but obviously, you know, we were just so fascinated by

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<v Speaker 5>it and really spoke to him. I it wasn't more

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<v Speaker 5>than two days after everything happened, and we wanted to,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, tell this story and just thought it was

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<v Speaker 5>so wild. And also, you know, since you've heard episode three,

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<v Speaker 5>we also talked to you know, a psychologist about what

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<v Speaker 5>could cause this because we have never We've done so

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<v Speaker 5>much research in the past four years and tried to

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<v Speaker 5>get in touch with so many doctors and nurses and

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<v Speaker 5>and no one has ever heard of somebody taking it

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<v Speaker 5>this far.

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<v Speaker 4>It's it's heard of.

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<v Speaker 5>As you hear another pseudosciesist survivor on episode three, she

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<v Speaker 5>you know, is a really smart girl who has a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of support and she she really couldn't understand why

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<v Speaker 5>her body was not listening to what the information was

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<v Speaker 5>coming into her head.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know we we haven't spoken to Christy.

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<v Speaker 5>I would love to speak to her if she ever

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<v Speaker 5>wanted to talk to us, uh, to hear her side

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<v Speaker 5>of it.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah, that's the.

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<v Speaker 2>Thing, like I that's the side too, And I was

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<v Speaker 2>telling Alan earlier. I'm like, man, I just I would

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<v Speaker 2>love to hear the other side of it as well,

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<v Speaker 2>because it's hard to understand when you have It's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like, all right, I have anxiety. He doesn't have anxiety,

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<v Speaker 2>So if he doesn't understand what it's like for someone

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<v Speaker 2>to have anxiety and then trying to so it's like

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<v Speaker 2>you want to almost hear the other person's side of

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<v Speaker 2>the story because it's so hard to understand. Like if

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<v Speaker 2>you went to the guy no and you didn't see

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<v Speaker 2>a baby in there, how did you then continue or

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<v Speaker 2>did you just not go to the appointments or like

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<v Speaker 2>that piece. I'm just like, I'm so confused about But

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<v Speaker 2>I also don't understand the mental aspect of the pseudo

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<v Speaker 2>I say it against posiis pseudosysis.

0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:55.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that's like the confusing bit because I mean, this

0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.080
<v Speaker 5>is there's a lot more to the story that we have.

0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:00.360
<v Speaker 5>We will cover in the next four episode. It's because

0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:06.959
<v Speaker 5>they're seven. But she definitely had pseudocyesis in the sense

0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.960
<v Speaker 5>that her and I'll send you a picture of her

0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:17.480
<v Speaker 5>as well. But her belly was fully looked like a

0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:18.520
<v Speaker 5>pregnant woman's belly.

0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.400
<v Speaker 2>And that wasn't like that wasn't like a she wasn't

0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.560
<v Speaker 2>like putting pillows or stuffing it or anything. No, that

0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:25.280
<v Speaker 2>is wild.

0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:30.760
<v Speaker 5>No, it's a psychosomatic disorder, which is extremely.

0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:32.360
<v Speaker 4>Mental.

0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.240
<v Speaker 5>You know, the body, I mean, the body keeps the

0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.320
<v Speaker 5>score right, so when you have anxiety, when you have stress,

0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:43.240
<v Speaker 5>it results. But with this condition, you stop having your period,

0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:48.359
<v Speaker 5>you lactate, you know, all of the things, cravings, frequent reurination,

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.280
<v Speaker 5>all the things that we talked about on the show.

0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.520
<v Speaker 4>But most times, every doctor we've spoken to, anyone who had.

0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.600
<v Speaker 5>Any experience with this, says that when people see that ultrasound,

0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:03.160
<v Speaker 5>they start the process of understanding that there is not

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.720
<v Speaker 5>a baby in the belly, even if they rejected at first,

0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.480
<v Speaker 5>you know, like no, check again, check again, I know

0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.199
<v Speaker 5>I'm pregnant. I know I'm pregnant. I feel pregnant. I

0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:14.800
<v Speaker 5>don't feel well. I'm this that my body's changing it.

0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:20.120
<v Speaker 5>So again, we haven't found anybody who went nine months

0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:24.240
<v Speaker 5>like she did anybody else, so there so physically she

0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:29.480
<v Speaker 5>did have pseudocyesis however, there are there is also evidence

0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:33.920
<v Speaker 5>that she was covering her tracks, so I just.

0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, see that's that's the piece too where I'm like, was,

0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 2>which which one was? It? Can it be both?

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:40.520
<v Speaker 4>And I think it's true?

0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.680
<v Speaker 5>Or yeah, I think it has to be both, right, yeah,

0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.320
<v Speaker 5>because it was the you know, she medically she had it,

0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.240
<v Speaker 5>but because of the lengths that she went to to

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.920
<v Speaker 5>cover her tracks and to uh convince people that she

0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.360
<v Speaker 5>was pregnant, there seems to be some kind of split

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.280
<v Speaker 5>in her, right, So I wonder I would love to know.

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.040
<v Speaker 4>You know, it seems like there's times.

0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.720
<v Speaker 5>Of the day where she believes she's pregnant and then

0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.280
<v Speaker 5>there's moments where because she had a gender reveal, right,

0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.839
<v Speaker 5>so somebody writes down on a piece of paper for

0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:18.360
<v Speaker 5>your girl, right, and her friend made the cake, and

0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:23.680
<v Speaker 5>we have video of her like girl going ballistic, like screaming, jumping,

0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:30.160
<v Speaker 5>you know, and it seems a doctor didn't write girl

0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.160
<v Speaker 5>on a piece of paper to give to her to

0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 5>give to her friend.

0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:33.840
<v Speaker 4>Somebody wrote it.

0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, And it's also like I know it was during

0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 2>the COVID piece. But at the same time, I mean, babe,

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.400
<v Speaker 2>just think about all the appointments that we just had

0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.280
<v Speaker 2>for Roman and the amount of times like can you

0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:46.160
<v Speaker 2>imagine if I was pregnant and you didn't want to

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.200
<v Speaker 2>say like can I see an ultrasound picture of the baby?

0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.720
<v Speaker 2>Or can I come see the baby? Or I know,

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.000
<v Speaker 2>like they didn't allow certain amount of people in the

0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:56.880
<v Speaker 2>rooms for those things, and not many women got checked

0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.520
<v Speaker 2>during that time. But also like when you think you'd

0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.760
<v Speaker 2>want to see an image, some sort of proof.

0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.240
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think he did see an image. Was it

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:06.160
<v Speaker 4>a real image?

0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 2>That's the thing?

0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:07.440
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, yeah, was it a real image?

0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.600
<v Speaker 5>That's you know, she ordered sonograms that had her name

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 5>on them and the hospital's name and the date, and

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 5>you can get them online and they say, if you

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:20.800
<v Speaker 5>look it up, it says prank.

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 4>You know, like if you guys, you know, twenty years

0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:24.680
<v Speaker 4>from now.

0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 5>You say surprise, babe, Like they all have these disclaimers

0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.720
<v Speaker 5>that say it's you know, gag purposes only and so on.

0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:35.040
<v Speaker 4>And so forth. But it wasn't very funny to him.

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:40.240
<v Speaker 3>So no, I mean, it's such an interesting story. Essure,

0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.600
<v Speaker 3>You've got a background in film and TV. What made

0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 3>you I said this to Elen, what made you go

0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.000
<v Speaker 3>the of making a podcast and not a documentary or

0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.040
<v Speaker 3>a TV show or a movie.

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.800
<v Speaker 5>Well, if I'm being perfectly honest with you, we would

0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 5>love to do a movie or a TV show about this,

0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:06.240
<v Speaker 5>and a documentary as well. But it was something that

0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 5>we felt could thrive first in the podcast space and

0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:17.880
<v Speaker 5>then as IP go to a series, a limited series

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.640
<v Speaker 5>or a film like a Lifetime film or something like that.

0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 5>And because we were doing it in COVID, we had

0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.120
<v Speaker 5>control of doing the interviews and just kind of getting

0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:34.480
<v Speaker 5>it done immediately, because you know, we spoke to him December,

0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 5>right after it happened, and we had him out here

0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.480
<v Speaker 5>in early March, and we had him for a few days,

0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.200
<v Speaker 5>and then everybody else we just did by zoom, and

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.400
<v Speaker 5>then last May we went to Pennsylvania and did additional

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.600
<v Speaker 5>interviews for some more voices and some more opinions and

0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:56.960
<v Speaker 5>texture and stuff like that.

0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 3>When I was listening to the to the first part

0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.439
<v Speaker 3>of the of the podcast, and my brain automatically went to,

0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:07.400
<v Speaker 3>why have they not made this a movie? Because it's

0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 3>it almost sounds like you remember the Blair Witch project. Yeah,

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.480
<v Speaker 3>remember that, and that ended up a really successful movie then,

0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:17.520
<v Speaker 3>and straight away I'm thinking this could be like like

0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 3>the Blair Witch Project, like a real life situation that's

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.879
<v Speaker 3>actually happened. I'm not just sure the Blair Witch Project happened,

0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:30.360
<v Speaker 3>but yeah, but that kind of impact where it instantly

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.120
<v Speaker 3>grabs you and keeps you there.

0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know. I was. I was like, all right,

0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.720
<v Speaker 2>next episode, next episode, like feet, I was just feeding

0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:39.480
<v Speaker 2>the baby down there, like next episode.

0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:40.040
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.680
<v Speaker 5>And that's the thing too, like you know, everybody was like,

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.520
<v Speaker 5>oh my god, moms are going to dig this, and

0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.359
<v Speaker 5>like you have three children, right, yeah, and so congratulations

0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.920
<v Speaker 5>and I was like, yeah, I think but like I'm

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 5>not a mom, and I think it's wild. And we

0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.359
<v Speaker 5>everybody that we've had dinner with, that we've pitched or whatever,

0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:04.280
<v Speaker 5>whether they be I uh, single couples, you know, young

0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.480
<v Speaker 5>not young, everybody's just like whoa. So I think that's

0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.000
<v Speaker 5>another reason why I think a TV show or a

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.200
<v Speaker 5>film about it would be amazing, because we've not nobody's ever.

0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:16.920
<v Speaker 4>Been like mm hm past the salt.

0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, everyone's just right, like you know what, Yeah,

0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean That's why I'm when when did the episodes

0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:23.200
<v Speaker 2>drop because now I need to.

0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:28.359
<v Speaker 5>Tuesdays, so then next episode four will be out on Tuesday.

0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait to find out more.

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.719
<v Speaker 3>So your enthusiasm for true crime. I think everyone in

0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.400
<v Speaker 3>this space is a real love true crime. Did your

0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 3>true crime fascination and interest grow from being a criminal

0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.640
<v Speaker 3>defense lawyer or did you have it before? Then?

0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.399
<v Speaker 5>Well did they even have true crime before I was growth?

0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:56.439
<v Speaker 5>I think for sure that my true crime love grew

0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.560
<v Speaker 5>out of being a criminal defense attorney. So I'm also

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.639
<v Speaker 5>raised by a criminal defense attorney. My dad's a criminal

0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:04.480
<v Speaker 5>defense attorney, which is why I went to law school

0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.320
<v Speaker 5>to maintain his love, even though I wanted to be

0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.680
<v Speaker 5>an actor the whole time. And I think that I

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.880
<v Speaker 5>actually loved being a lawyer and I was pretty.

0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:14.040
<v Speaker 4>Good at it.

0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.040
<v Speaker 2>You like to play one instead, yes, exactly.

0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.480
<v Speaker 4>Exactly, which I've done multiple times.

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.480
<v Speaker 5>Right, So, but I do think that when I miss

0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.320
<v Speaker 5>I miss courtroom stuff, and so I kind of sit.

0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:27.320
<v Speaker 4>There and I'm like objection or you know, like.

0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.560
<v Speaker 5>I follow the I like to follow the trials on

0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 5>TV too, and then I'm like, I would have done

0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.439
<v Speaker 5>that differently, you know, So I do think there definitely

0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:37.440
<v Speaker 5>is a connection for me.

0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.520
<v Speaker 2>Speaking of you, you know, doing that. What is one

0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:46.240
<v Speaker 2>of your favorite true crime stories that you've you've heard?

0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:48.919
<v Speaker 5>I mean I watched so many they all blend, But

0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:53.840
<v Speaker 5>this one that really jarred me recently was this woman

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.960
<v Speaker 5>who gave her child away for adoption and then thirty

0:19:58.040 --> 0:19:59.160
<v Speaker 5>years later was.

0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:00.480
<v Speaker 4>Asked for the body test.

0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:01.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeap.

0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.000
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and then the mother knew where she was and

0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 5>they called her crazy.

0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like she's like she's in that backyard. Oh yeah,

0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Like that is the mother's intuition for sure, like my

0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:17.280
<v Speaker 2>child is there, likes.

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.600
<v Speaker 5>Even thinking about it. But yeah, I mean I also,

0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:20.800
<v Speaker 5>I mean the Staircase. I think I've watched that twice.

0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I've seen that one. What are what

0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:25.359
<v Speaker 2>are your thoughts on the Menda's brothers.

0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.720
<v Speaker 4>Ooh, you know. I think that.

0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:34.679
<v Speaker 5>Whenever you get a second trial, it's tough for the

0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.560
<v Speaker 5>defense because the prosecution has the opportunity to fix all

0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.280
<v Speaker 5>the stuff that they did wrong or they didn't land

0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:42.200
<v Speaker 5>with the jury in the first in the first time.

0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:43.440
<v Speaker 4>And I do think that.

0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.480
<v Speaker 5>If it was being tried today, the evidence of the

0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 5>sexual abuse would.

0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.920
<v Speaker 2>Come more into play. Yeah.

0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.639
<v Speaker 4>I also think that thirty years is a long time.

0:20:56.400 --> 0:21:00.119
<v Speaker 5>And if the State of California, who is you know, know,

0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.000
<v Speaker 5>the plaintiff in this case, because it's a criminal matter, right,

0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.120
<v Speaker 5>So it's not mister missus, Menandez versus their sons, it's

0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:07.680
<v Speaker 5>the State of California versus them.

0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:09.680
<v Speaker 4>If the State of California, meaning.

0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.200
<v Speaker 5>The District Attorney's office, thinks that this is the right move,

0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:19.560
<v Speaker 5>and they're not only not opposing the defense's request for

0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.280
<v Speaker 5>them to be released, but they're saying that they also

0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.800
<v Speaker 5>think that they should be released, then who am I

0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.439
<v Speaker 5>to judge, you know, in the sense that that there

0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.360
<v Speaker 5>are the people that make the decisions about prosecution and

0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:34.320
<v Speaker 5>so on and so forth, they seem comfortable with it.

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:36.199
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.680
<v Speaker 5>I tend to believe victims, and I think that there

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 5>was a lot of you know, hullabaloo going on. And

0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:49.240
<v Speaker 5>I do think the thing with Manudo, the you know,

0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 5>the kids from Manudo coming forward did help them in

0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:51.960
<v Speaker 5>some way.

0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:56.280
<v Speaker 4>So I say, you know, good for them, bad for

0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:56.920
<v Speaker 4>their parents.

0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:01.400
<v Speaker 5>But even but I feel like even Kitties family members

0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:05.280
<v Speaker 5>and they're supporting it as well. They think that they've

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.640
<v Speaker 5>been in long enough. Yeah, I'm for it, How about

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:09.160
<v Speaker 5>you guys.

0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:11.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. I've got a mixed I've got a

0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 3>mixed opinion on it and a mixed view on it

0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:19.239
<v Speaker 3>because I don't regardless of the situation, the sexual abuse too,

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 3>to commit, to commit the brutal crime that they did

0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.680
<v Speaker 3>is I would just be scared that they get out

0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.560
<v Speaker 3>and something like that happens again.

0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 2>Like killing someone.

0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, because they pick it and listen, I get

0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.760
<v Speaker 3>they were it was aggravated and there's a lot of abuse,

0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 3>but they've still picked up a shotgun and shot someone

0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:44.480
<v Speaker 3>out of anger. So I don't. But again, my view

0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:48.000
<v Speaker 3>is I've also I've also got empathy for what they

0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:50.359
<v Speaker 3>went through, So I'm kind of split down the middle.

0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.760
<v Speaker 3>But for two guys who went through that amount of

0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 3>abuse and torture, there's a part of me wants to

0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:58.880
<v Speaker 3>see them released for sure.

0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.320
<v Speaker 2>Is there a true crime out there that you are like,

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.240
<v Speaker 2>they got it wrong, They just got it wrong, especially

0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.240
<v Speaker 2>with your background too, with you know, the criminal defense.

0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:24.760
<v Speaker 4>Oh that's such a good question. I'm trying to think.

0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:27.040
<v Speaker 2>I know, there's so many and they all blend together,

0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:28.560
<v Speaker 2>but I was just you know.

0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:29.320
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:32.480
<v Speaker 2>I feel, like I said obviously oj it got that

0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 2>one wrong.

0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:36.600
<v Speaker 5>Right one, which at the time I didn't think. So

0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:41.119
<v Speaker 5>you know, at the time, I was very happy that

0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:42.840
<v Speaker 5>he got a quitted and I looked back at that

0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:46.320
<v Speaker 5>person and I was like, wow, you were wrong. But

0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 5>I would like to know more answers about who uh

0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.040
<v Speaker 5>took Casey Anthony's daughter's life.

0:23:55.640 --> 0:23:58.040
<v Speaker 4>I wish that because I like, I love true crime,

0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.040
<v Speaker 4>but I hate unsolved mysteries. I don't see what's fun about.

0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:04.359
<v Speaker 5>Unsolved mystery at all. Like I want the answer, I

0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.920
<v Speaker 5>want to know. I want to see police doing great work.

0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:08.840
<v Speaker 5>I want to see detectives caring.

0:24:09.359 --> 0:24:13.120
<v Speaker 4>You know, I don't. I don't like unsolved mysteries.

0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:15.120
<v Speaker 5>It I just don't see what's fun about it because

0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:16.360
<v Speaker 5>it's like what happened?

0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:19.720
<v Speaker 4>So I feel like there, I do feel like there's

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.160
<v Speaker 4>a part of me that feels like her parents were

0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:25.480
<v Speaker 4>involved in that and she was just like cool.

0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:30.560
<v Speaker 5>But I'm not sure because I wish that's in one

0:24:30.600 --> 0:24:31.480
<v Speaker 5>that I'm not sure about.

0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:34.160
<v Speaker 2>I totally hear you in the unresolved ones because even

0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:36.679
<v Speaker 2>the I mean the Jean Benet Ramsay's, I mean, we

0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:38.639
<v Speaker 2>grew up with that story and I'm like, I'm always

0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:41.520
<v Speaker 2>like what happened to that sweet little precious girl, you know?

0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:42.560
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:46.639
<v Speaker 2>And to not have that resolve is I mean, gosh,

0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:48.520
<v Speaker 2>for the family, I can only imagine it's so hard.

0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:50.520
<v Speaker 2>But then from people that were invested in the news

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.480
<v Speaker 2>stories and trying to be like, you know, what actually happened? Yeah,

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:57.119
<v Speaker 2>So what movie did we just watch?

0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:57.359
<v Speaker 3>That?

0:24:57.520 --> 0:24:59.679
<v Speaker 2>Was it a true story? It was? It was the

0:24:59.720 --> 0:25:05.439
<v Speaker 2>story very gosh, who uh where the guy was raping

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:07.719
<v Speaker 2>those girls and she escaped and she called? Was that

0:25:07.800 --> 0:25:09.120
<v Speaker 2>the movie?

0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:13.080
<v Speaker 4>Was the hour that Anna Kendrick one yea yeah.

0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Because can you imagine all the people that you know,

0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:17.439
<v Speaker 2>these these guys are still out there doing And there

0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:19.400
<v Speaker 2>was another one too that he had like all these

0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:21.440
<v Speaker 2>other women that he was killing and raping and I'm

0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:22.240
<v Speaker 2>just like wow.

0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:25.080
<v Speaker 5>And he was out three for like twenty years before,

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:27.840
<v Speaker 5>like like he didn't go straight in that guy, which

0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:28.480
<v Speaker 5>is wild.

0:25:28.920 --> 0:25:29.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.439
<v Speaker 5>And the fact that, I mean, it's crazy because we

0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:34.639
<v Speaker 5>live in this you know, digital era, Like when I

0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:39.520
<v Speaker 5>was young, people got kidnapped. I don't want to say frequently,

0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:41.760
<v Speaker 5>but it felt like there were posters a lot, and

0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.720
<v Speaker 5>I mean it happens now obviously probably even more, but

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:49.119
<v Speaker 5>like and never were resolved because there was no you know, uh,

0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:53.879
<v Speaker 5>digital footprint really obviously, and so I just think that

0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:57.480
<v Speaker 5>is another thing that's so interesting about how I watched

0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.560
<v Speaker 5>a whole series, I think, eight episodes in a week

0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:05.880
<v Speaker 5>about how crimes were solved just by cell phone towers

0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:08.119
<v Speaker 5>and and all that stuff kind of was new around

0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:09.440
<v Speaker 5>like the serial time, you.

0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:11.400
<v Speaker 4>Know, we were just like, what's going on? They're they're

0:26:11.440 --> 0:26:13.280
<v Speaker 4>pinging all over the place, you know.

0:26:13.840 --> 0:26:16.840
<v Speaker 2>So what do you why do you think people are

0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 2>as obsessed as they are about true crime?

0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:21.840
<v Speaker 4>I don't know. I read a meme that said that

0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:24.080
<v Speaker 4>we might be psychotic, but I don't.

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Read that too.

0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:26.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I didn't love it.

0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:28.360
<v Speaker 2>I read that too.

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:30.080
<v Speaker 4>I'm like, I've been attacked.

0:26:33.000 --> 0:26:36.160
<v Speaker 5>I do think for me, you know, part of it

0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:40.520
<v Speaker 5>is I like to see the investigation. I like to

0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:45.760
<v Speaker 5>see when the detectives are really smart, you know.

0:26:46.160 --> 0:26:49.879
<v Speaker 4>And I like to see justice for the family. I

0:26:50.320 --> 0:26:51.800
<v Speaker 4>enjoy that a lot. Obviously.

0:26:51.880 --> 0:26:56.480
<v Speaker 5>I don't like the idea of glorifying the murderer, you know,

0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:59.400
<v Speaker 5>And I do think that Anna Kendrick did a lovely

0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.159
<v Speaker 5>job of not doing that and with the lens in

0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:03.800
<v Speaker 5>Women of the Hour, because I thought he was a

0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:04.600
<v Speaker 5>creep from jump.

0:27:05.760 --> 0:27:12.280
<v Speaker 4>But I think that that's I think that's what it is.

0:27:12.320 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 5>I think I like to see when justice is served

0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:17.800
<v Speaker 5>for the families, which sounds weird because I was a

0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:19.639
<v Speaker 5>criminal defense attorney, but I you know, I was a

0:27:19.680 --> 0:27:22.800
<v Speaker 5>federal criminal defense attorney, so they don't have jurisdiction over

0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:26.679
<v Speaker 5>murder per se unless it's a Rico case. You know,

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.239
<v Speaker 5>the states have the jurisdiction over murder. So we did

0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:32.159
<v Speaker 5>a lot more of like drugs and white collar stuff.

0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:33.240
<v Speaker 5>And you know that.

0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:36.119
<v Speaker 3>I guess that was one of my questions because it

0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:38.879
<v Speaker 3>must be so hard as a defense lawyer. And I

0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:41.280
<v Speaker 3>don't know if you defended someone else but they've committed

0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:43.960
<v Speaker 3>the heinous crime and you know they're guilty, but you

0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:46.280
<v Speaker 3>have to defend them. Yeah, so you think you've just

0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:48.240
<v Speaker 3>answered that saying that it was more kind of white

0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:49.360
<v Speaker 3>collar crimes.

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:54.400
<v Speaker 4>Well, no, it actually well, okay, truth be told.

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:58.040
<v Speaker 5>I stopped practicing law because of a case that I

0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:00.840
<v Speaker 5>bumped heads with my former employer on that I didn't

0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:04.440
<v Speaker 5>want to do, and that was really damaging to me.

0:28:04.920 --> 0:28:08.240
<v Speaker 4>And I knew that the I believed that.

0:28:08.200 --> 0:28:11.399
<v Speaker 5>The young man was guilty, like my dad is the

0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:13.240
<v Speaker 5>type of lawyer who's like, well, the kid didn't do it.

0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:15.320
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, no, he did it. The burden is proved

0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:17.359
<v Speaker 5>beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's just see what they have.

0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:23.920
<v Speaker 5>And I always feel felt that it was important to

0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:27.439
<v Speaker 5>make sure that there's checks and balances as far as

0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:31.240
<v Speaker 5>the Constitution goes, so that if defense attorneys aren't, you know,

0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:36.680
<v Speaker 5>writing motions about the FBI or the DA or the ATF,

0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:39.920
<v Speaker 5>not waiting for warrants before they go in, or just

0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:42.440
<v Speaker 5>not doing things the right way, that it's going to

0:28:42.560 --> 0:28:44.040
<v Speaker 5>kind of you know that, I don't want them coming

0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:46.120
<v Speaker 5>to my door knocking and just coming in or not

0:28:46.200 --> 0:28:48.720
<v Speaker 5>knocking at all. Right, So I feel like a lot

0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 5>of times, the way I looked at it was to

0:28:50.640 --> 0:28:55.760
<v Speaker 5>protect the rights of the non guilty people, the non

0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:57.360
<v Speaker 5>criminally committing.

0:28:58.680 --> 0:28:59.040
<v Speaker 4>People.

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 5>Also, I did federal work, so I didn't win a

0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:08.200
<v Speaker 5>lot because they don't just like somebody robbed a liquor store.

0:29:08.320 --> 0:29:11.280
<v Speaker 4>Let's figure it out, you know. They they really you know,

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:12.400
<v Speaker 4>the first case.

0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 5>I ever had, they had tapped the phone of my client,

0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:21.040
<v Speaker 5>the email account, and his fax machine for eight years

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:24.560
<v Speaker 5>before they even indicted him. So that was a long

0:29:24.600 --> 0:29:28.400
<v Speaker 5>time to be watching him to find something, and so

0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:30.800
<v Speaker 5>I was kind of liked to be like, Okay, they

0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:32.600
<v Speaker 5>did this, but they didn't do that, And.

0:29:34.800 --> 0:29:37.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think that I don't know, I guess I.

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:40.120
<v Speaker 5>Believe in the constitution, and I think that, you know,

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:42.920
<v Speaker 5>the police should do their job the right way, but

0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:43.960
<v Speaker 5>do your job.

0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:47.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, right, And I kind of I mean, I

0:29:47.080 --> 0:29:48.840
<v Speaker 2>see how everyone should have their right to have a

0:29:48.920 --> 0:29:52.280
<v Speaker 2>lawyer and to have someone defend them, but also like that, yeah,

0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:54.560
<v Speaker 2>that's that's a heavy, like a hard line, because it's like,

0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.720
<v Speaker 2>how can someone defend somebody that has done something so

0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:00.480
<v Speaker 2>terrible and then try to be like, let's get some

0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:04.960
<v Speaker 2>years off, like you know, but also they have their

0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:06.480
<v Speaker 2>own they have we all have our rights.

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, it wasn't It wasn't particularly easy for me.

0:30:13.680 --> 0:30:17.200
<v Speaker 5>I loved getting to know people that I would have

0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:19.600
<v Speaker 5>never been friends with or bumped into on the street

0:30:19.840 --> 0:30:22.400
<v Speaker 5>and get to know their life story and realize that

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:27.040
<v Speaker 5>there's a pattern of abuse and neglect and poverty, and

0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:30.880
<v Speaker 5>you know, it was you know, meeting people that I

0:30:30.920 --> 0:30:32.360
<v Speaker 5>was like, Wow, if you were even raised in my

0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:36.280
<v Speaker 5>crazy family, you probably would be at Harvard.

0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:38.600
<v Speaker 4>But then you also meet sociopaths that you're like, okay,

0:30:38.680 --> 0:30:40.360
<v Speaker 4>jre see hopefully never, but.

0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:43.680
<v Speaker 3>You know for sure, Yeah, what point in your in

0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:46.920
<v Speaker 3>your legal career that like, I've always been interested, at

0:30:46.920 --> 0:30:49.360
<v Speaker 3>what point does someone choose to be a defense lawyer

0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:52.040
<v Speaker 3>and then someone choose to be a prosecution because I've

0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:56.160
<v Speaker 3>always thought it would be so not easier, but a

0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:59.320
<v Speaker 3>more fulfilling role to be a prosecution.

0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:00.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:04.600
<v Speaker 5>I was raised by a criminal defense attorney. When I

0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:07.600
<v Speaker 5>went to law school, I wanted to be an actor anyways.

0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:10.040
<v Speaker 5>I literally I think I took the alsat what the

0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:12.760
<v Speaker 5>day I came home from spring break. You know, I

0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:14.840
<v Speaker 5>was just like whatever. I went to Brooklyn Law School,

0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:20.080
<v Speaker 5>the Princeton of Nowhere, and I got an agent immediately,

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:25.440
<v Speaker 5>and I really realized quickly that if I was going

0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 5>to practice law, it wasn't going to be contracts or

0:31:27.840 --> 0:31:29.360
<v Speaker 5>corporations or real estate.

0:31:30.160 --> 0:31:32.360
<v Speaker 4>I was going to do criminal law.

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:37.719
<v Speaker 5>So my last year of law school, I signed up

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.120
<v Speaker 5>for a trial advocacy class, right, which is where you

0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:42.600
<v Speaker 5>perform like you're in court. But I signed up on

0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:44.320
<v Speaker 5>a Monday because I figure, well, if I get to

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:46.600
<v Speaker 5>play theater Stark on Monday, so I won't have to

0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:52.440
<v Speaker 5>miss the class. Randomly, I get assigned the the DA

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:56.840
<v Speaker 5>of Brooklyn as my teacher, and I do my opening statement,

0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:59.080
<v Speaker 5>I do my closing statement, I do a direct exam.

0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:00.920
<v Speaker 5>He caused me in the holloway. He's like, you're hired,

0:32:01.560 --> 0:32:03.840
<v Speaker 5>come work for me. I was like, no, I want

0:32:03.880 --> 0:32:08.280
<v Speaker 5>to book a pilot. And so anyways, I did take

0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:13.520
<v Speaker 5>the job because I was like, you know, I can't

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:15.520
<v Speaker 5>not go into the DA's office in Brooklyn if they

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:19.400
<v Speaker 5>invited me, I guess it's meant to be. And then

0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:21.680
<v Speaker 5>at the end, like right after I took the bar,

0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:25.360
<v Speaker 5>they sent a letter saying because of the budget, they

0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 5>wanted us to start in January instead. So I was like,

0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:32.480
<v Speaker 5>oh my god, it's another sign I should be an actor. Right,

0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 5>But at the time I was already working for my

0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:37.200
<v Speaker 5>dad's friend from law school who was a federal criminal

0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:38.080
<v Speaker 5>defense attorney.

0:32:38.760 --> 0:32:42.200
<v Speaker 4>And then by the time it was for us.

0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:45.400
<v Speaker 5>To start for the class of das to start, we

0:32:45.400 --> 0:32:47.200
<v Speaker 5>were deep in that trial that I was telling you

0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:54.200
<v Speaker 5>about about the client that was seven years followed eight years,

0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:57.280
<v Speaker 5>and it just it kind of didn't make sense, like

0:32:57.320 --> 0:32:59.719
<v Speaker 5>I had been working with him for so long. I was,

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:02.000
<v Speaker 5>you know, it was like a year later. I didn't

0:33:02.040 --> 0:33:03.480
<v Speaker 5>want to miss the trial that I had worked so

0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:05.480
<v Speaker 5>hard on. It was an eight month trial. I didn't

0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:07.680
<v Speaker 5>want to abandon them, So I just did end up going.

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:10.400
<v Speaker 5>And then a couple of years later I ended up

0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:13.080
<v Speaker 5>moving to la And so I just that's the way

0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:13.360
<v Speaker 5>it went.

0:33:13.680 --> 0:33:14.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, and now you know obviously been in

0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:21.960
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of shows. Is in your husband he's a writer? Yeah,

0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:24.400
<v Speaker 2>so are you guys gonna you know, write and then

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:26.680
<v Speaker 2>start in like a scandalish kind of show like you know,

0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:28.120
<v Speaker 2>did you guys work well together?

0:33:28.400 --> 0:33:32.040
<v Speaker 5>Or yes, I think we do work well together. We're

0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:35.520
<v Speaker 5>actually writing a legal thriller right now. It's based on

0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:42.560
<v Speaker 5>a book that a really cool studio offered him to adapt.

0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:45.800
<v Speaker 5>And he was like, can I my wife's lawyer, and

0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 5>I'll do the shoot him up bank bank stuff and

0:33:48.160 --> 0:33:49.200
<v Speaker 5>she'll do the courtroom stuff.

0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:51.320
<v Speaker 4>So we're doing that, and yeah, I mean, I would

0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:51.600
<v Speaker 4>love to.

0:33:51.880 --> 0:33:55.840
<v Speaker 5>I wrote a pilot that's based on my experience being

0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 5>a young federal defense attorney in New York City.

0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:02.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so, I mean I love the law.

0:34:02.400 --> 0:34:04.200
<v Speaker 5>I love it. I love being a lawyer, So I

0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:06.320
<v Speaker 5>would love to. I would play lawyer on TV for

0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:08.520
<v Speaker 5>the rest of my life. If I could, to be honest,

0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 5>I mean.

0:34:09.239 --> 0:34:12.239
<v Speaker 2>It's I'm trying to think, like it's it would be

0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:14.960
<v Speaker 2>so fun, you know, to do that. I mean I

0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:17.360
<v Speaker 2>always think back and think scandal is amazing. And then

0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:20.520
<v Speaker 2>Jake Gillenhall, I thought he killed it as a lawyer,

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:22.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, presumed innocent. Oh my god. I thought

0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:23.120
<v Speaker 2>it was so good.

0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:23.479
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>It was one of my favorite roles of his that

0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:26.960
<v Speaker 2>he's that he's done because I was just I was

0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:29.239
<v Speaker 2>in I believed him, like, yeah, it was great. I

0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:31.839
<v Speaker 2>loved it so good. Those courtroom scenes, like when actor

0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:35.200
<v Speaker 2>can nail that courtroom scene, it's just like the best.

0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, like wow, yeah, it's crazy.

0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 5>I mean, you know it's it's what's really funny is

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:43.400
<v Speaker 5>that I was the Well, I don't know if it's funny,

0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:47.120
<v Speaker 5>it's just kind of ironic. I was the on set

0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:51.040
<v Speaker 5>league advisor for HBO's Perry Mason the first season, and

0:34:51.360 --> 0:34:51.839
<v Speaker 5>they were like.

0:34:51.760 --> 0:34:53.160
<v Speaker 4>Well, what we do here? I'm like, I don't know.

0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:55.880
<v Speaker 4>The show's set in nineteen eighteen, Like there.

0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Was no utter little like man over there, you know,

0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:04.279
<v Speaker 1>like and then, but I did not watch a ton

0:35:04.440 --> 0:35:07.360
<v Speaker 1>of law shows because I could not stand how inaccurate

0:35:07.440 --> 0:35:07.759
<v Speaker 1>they are.

0:35:08.640 --> 0:35:11.279
<v Speaker 4>And then I got jury duty and I was like,

0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:15.080
<v Speaker 4>we are doing that right, but we have to worth,

0:35:15.160 --> 0:35:17.200
<v Speaker 4>you know, for the purpose of storytelling.

0:35:17.680 --> 0:35:19.239
<v Speaker 5>But we had to do so much of it right

0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:21.440
<v Speaker 5>because we had the guy who didn't know it was fake,

0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:25.920
<v Speaker 5>so you know, but that was like terrifying, like every

0:35:26.000 --> 0:35:28.359
<v Speaker 5>day worried that my witnesses were just going to break

0:35:28.360 --> 0:35:29.600
<v Speaker 5>on the stand and be like I forgot what I

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:33.160
<v Speaker 5>was supposed to say, you know, so literally.

0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.640
<v Speaker 4>You know, like, let's hope this goes well, you know,

0:35:38.040 --> 0:35:39.680
<v Speaker 4>but yeah, it's like, okay, well, I guess you have

0:35:39.760 --> 0:35:40.160
<v Speaker 4>to do it.

0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:42.560
<v Speaker 5>You know, right now I can watch them because I

0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:45.120
<v Speaker 5>have empathy for their their plight.

0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Right exactly. Okay, so the Unborn tell everyone when where

0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>they can listen, and is there going to be episodes?

0:35:53.920 --> 0:35:55.640
<v Speaker 2>So after you have you said there's seven, are you

0:35:55.640 --> 0:35:58.200
<v Speaker 2>going to do another then series of another story?

0:35:58.800 --> 0:36:03.360
<v Speaker 5>I mean, if we find one, we would love to,

0:36:03.520 --> 0:36:05.600
<v Speaker 5>you know, like we were talking about make this into

0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:14.040
<v Speaker 5>something narrative, either a TV series or a film.

0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:13.360
<v Speaker 4>Or TV movie.

0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:17.840
<v Speaker 5>Obviously if we there's another idea that I have for

0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:21.840
<v Speaker 5>a podcast that relates to the client that I had

0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:22.919
<v Speaker 5>all those years ago.

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:28.440
<v Speaker 4>He just got out of jail. But I do think

0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:29.719
<v Speaker 4>I would be open to it.

0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.200
<v Speaker 5>But I would also even be open to going another

0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:36.560
<v Speaker 5>like if Christy wanted to tell her side of the story.

0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:38.879
<v Speaker 4>Or if during the course of this if more people

0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:39.359
<v Speaker 4>come out.

0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:43.120
<v Speaker 5>Because I I'm so glad that it's entertaining, but I

0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:47.160
<v Speaker 5>also want the whole picture too, you know. So yeah,

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:52.680
<v Speaker 5>but yeah, So The Unborn is out now. It's on

0:36:52.800 --> 0:36:59.440
<v Speaker 5>iHeart Radio and wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Amazon,

0:36:59.480 --> 0:37:02.279
<v Speaker 5>et cetera. But it comes out every Tuesday. Right now,

0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:05.440
<v Speaker 5>the first three episodes are out, so if you haven't

0:37:05.600 --> 0:37:09.080
<v Speaker 5>you can binge those and then every Tuesday for the

0:37:09.160 --> 0:37:11.000
<v Speaker 5>next four weeks until we finished seven.

0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:13.600
<v Speaker 2>I love it. Well, Thank you so much for coming on.

0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Good luck with everything, and wait to watch one of

0:37:16.040 --> 0:37:16.560
<v Speaker 2>your shows.

0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:19.239
<v Speaker 4>Thank you so much for having me. Great to meet you.

0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:20.279
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for coming girl you Tube.

0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:30.840
<v Speaker 5>Okay, bye bye bye bye