Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: Hi honey, Hello, Hello, what you got from me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been looking at ways to up upgrade my
Speaker 3: scaring game, you're what? We have this thing. We have
Speaker 3: this game that we've played on't where ice.
Speaker 2: It's fun, such a fun game because you.
Speaker 3: Actually marriage to scale me. Okay, and I'm going to
Speaker 3: try and have to get I'm going to have to
Speaker 3: get more creative.
Speaker 2: So what he's saying is is that we have I
Speaker 2: have scared him more times than he has scared me.
Speaker 2: We like to well, I've only done it.
Speaker 3: Do you believe that statement?
Speaker 2: Yes? I do, because illusion eventually we will do a
Speaker 2: He's he has this thing where he records trying to
Speaker 2: scare me. But I know now where he is when
Speaker 2: he's doing like I just know, like when it's quiet,
Speaker 2: I know that he's most likely going to be around
Speaker 2: door number one. So and then my first thing is
Speaker 2: I'll walk into a room many times that he has
Speaker 2: these recordings. I'm looking now for the phone to be like,
Speaker 2: I know you're right there, and the other day you
Speaker 2: had you had it facing where I could actually see
Speaker 2: myself as opposed to facing it the other way. Now,
Speaker 2: I was like, Alan, really, do you.
Speaker 3: Want to tell him about the laundering room one? Which
Speaker 3: one the one that I told you I asked you
Speaker 3: I can collect my water bottle from the laundry room
Speaker 3: because you thought I was in the gym.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was the one that actually scared me.
Speaker 3: Actually, I think you might yourself a little bit.
Speaker 2: That one was scary, but you didn't get that one
Speaker 2: on camera.
Speaker 3: But anyway, my point is I'm starting to step up,
Speaker 3: so I.
Speaker 2: Know how I feel about that, Like for what is like,
Speaker 2: what is the purpose of this? Because I've only scared
Speaker 2: you now twice and I stopped because I'm like, you know, it's.
Speaker 3: Because I'm competitive. It's getting to the point where you're walking.
Speaker 2: You're doing it because I'm now, you're not scaring this.
Speaker 2: So every time you try, it's like you've now you
Speaker 2: have about fifteen fails and so you're do so okay.
Speaker 2: So the point is, because you haven't scared me, You're
Speaker 2: going to continue till you can scare me.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to get it on camera because it's
Speaker 3: annoying me that So what happens is the house goes silent, right.
Speaker 2: If the kids are in bed, The best one was
Speaker 2: Jay's because Mommy, come in here. Alan's not going to
Speaker 2: scare you. And I said, thanks, baby, Alan, get away
Speaker 2: from the.
Speaker 3: Door underneath the bed.
Speaker 2: I was like this sweet. I was like, you're such
Speaker 2: my little boy, Mommy. It's okay, you can come in.
Speaker 2: Alan won't scary.
Speaker 3: I love his under the bed for fourteen minutes.
Speaker 2: Literally, or like when romans like stomach will gurgle and
Speaker 2: like you're holding him and I'm like.
Speaker 3: By Alan, oh my ankles will click.
Speaker 2: Okay, but go ahead. So you're doing this because do
Speaker 2: you want to.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's got to the point now where if the
Speaker 3: kids are in bed and the house is silent, and
Speaker 3: I try and hide, you're you're actually like trying to
Speaker 3: see from there. You're trying to send he from there.
Speaker 3: So therefore you're walking around thinking he's beying that door,
Speaker 3: he's buying that door. You step up.
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you one thing that's where you
Speaker 2: will find yourself in a hotel room if anything involves
Speaker 2: you going out. Because one of my worst fares when
Speaker 2: I'm home alone and I you know, we have a
Speaker 2: very wooded area behind our backyard. I think like a
Speaker 2: movie and a true Crime Brain, which is very exciting
Speaker 2: because we have a true crime podcaster coming on for
Speaker 2: today's show. So this leads so well into this. But
Speaker 2: I like, when you're out of town, I have these
Speaker 2: like terrible visions or thoughts of from you know, even
Speaker 2: just think, Okay, I can be in a shower and
Speaker 2: what if someone comes around the corner and then I
Speaker 2: get this is where I die or murdered or paranoia.
Speaker 3: It's not an over I'm assive.
Speaker 2: But I just I, you know I. And then we
Speaker 2: have our entire wooded it's all wooded in the back,
Speaker 2: so trees, and it's when we have no windows like cover,
Speaker 2: like privacy.
Speaker 3: You're creating a very easy pictchre for creepy people.
Speaker 2: Then maybe right, but I'm just saying, like, yes, we
Speaker 2: will find you. And there are cameras, so I want
Speaker 2: to say that, but I still have that image where
Speaker 2: because there aren't shades, I have this fear where I'm
Speaker 2: going to look out one night and I'm going to
Speaker 2: see like a person standing there and I swear to
Speaker 2: God if that is you one of those nights, I
Speaker 2: will like I will just send you your like throw
Speaker 2: your keys out the door and a little duffel bag
Speaker 2: because you were not welcome back in the house. If
Speaker 2: you do that, I can't handle that.
Speaker 3: The lifelike masks on Amazon, I will one of them
Speaker 3: is even get real stubble.
Speaker 2: And seriously like it does a big no. Can we
Speaker 2: just do what you've been doing recently, the half attempts
Speaker 2: of trying to scare me. I just couldn't do that.
Speaker 2: But it's really sweet that you want to.
Speaker 3: It's just it's just a funny game because there's no
Speaker 3: go out to the point where you're laughing at me
Speaker 3: because I can't scare you. Yes, so I'm gonna have
Speaker 3: to be creative.
Speaker 2: Well, I can't say you did something and I can
Speaker 2: tell you. We can tell you guys the following week.
Speaker 2: But he did something that involved wearing a mask. But
Speaker 2: again we can't say how or where, but we can
Speaker 2: tell you next week. So stay tuned.
Speaker 3: Well, Bedroom Secrets.
Speaker 2: No, it involves with something that I'm not allowed to
Speaker 2: say something, so but we can say how you tried
Speaker 2: to scare me with a certain mask. But because I'm
Speaker 2: not allowed to talk about it yet, I can't say
Speaker 2: it anyway, So you don't even have You don't even know.
Speaker 3: I thought even know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Perfect you'll find out next week too. Anyway, speaking of
Speaker 2: though we have today's episode, we've a true crime podcaster
Speaker 2: coming on. It's a new show on iHeart Podcast. It's
Speaker 2: called The Unborn, and I'm I'm a big true crime fan.
Speaker 2: I love it. It's one of those things where I forget.
Speaker 2: I forget how much I love it because there were
Speaker 2: times when I used to listen to the dateline podcasts
Speaker 2: all the time, and that's probably where my brain goes
Speaker 2: to like the freaky stuff, and why I have such
Speaker 2: a hard time with We watch a lot of those
Speaker 2: true crime documentaries on Netflix or any other streaming service,
Speaker 2: but I have a hard time turning my brain off
Speaker 2: from it, which is why I'm like, all right, babe,
Speaker 2: let's watch the Kardashians now for the next hour. But
Speaker 2: I am hooked on this Unborn podcast now. It's so good.
Speaker 2: Do you like true crime?
Speaker 3: I love I love true crime, and I'm actually intrigued
Speaker 3: because Tresha has got a background and film and TV.
Speaker 3: So why she's decided they've decided to make this a
Speaker 3: podcast and not a movie or a TV show, Well
Speaker 3: that striegues me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, let's get our guest, Tricia la Fash
Speaker 2: coming on. She is the podcast host of the new
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio show called Unborn, the true crime series. It's a
Speaker 2: true story. Let's get her on.
Speaker 4: Hi, guys, Hi, how are you nice to meet you?
Speaker 4: I'm Tricia, I'm Jana.
Speaker 2: This is Alan. Alan lovely to meet you and chat
Speaker 2: with you, and we'll just hop right in because I
Speaker 2: just finished episode three when I need to know when
Speaker 2: episode four is coming because I'm like a true crime girl,
Speaker 2: and I was just saying, how I like, my brain
Speaker 2: just always goes to like when I'm home alone, I'm
Speaker 2: like that true crime Like I'm always freaking out and
Speaker 2: I'm just he was like, no, that's paranoia. But either way,
Speaker 2: like it's still I just get so sucked into these
Speaker 2: things and then it's just wild. In this story, I'm like,
Speaker 2: how has this not been made into like a Lifetime
Speaker 2: movie yet? Like I'm like, I have we seen this
Speaker 2: story because you've changed the name, so like I wanted
Speaker 2: to google to see what happened, but I don't know
Speaker 2: the actual names. So the people because of you're not
Speaker 2: allowed to or what was that?
Speaker 5: Well mine, you know, it was kind of my decision
Speaker 5: because I was concerned.
Speaker 4: I'm a true crime fanatic.
Speaker 5: Like love, love, love, and I loved the process of
Speaker 5: making this, and I was so intrigued by the story.
Speaker 5: I thought it was so compelling. It really was a
Speaker 5: crime that I had never heard of before. You know,
Speaker 5: similarly to like when Gypsy Rose Blanchard came on the
Speaker 5: scene with Munchausen's this pseudosysis was not your normal cookie
Speaker 5: cutter situation, but I had a lot of concern about
Speaker 5: hurting somebody, you know, the woman.
Speaker 4: Who did what she did.
Speaker 5: You know, it was just kind of like a tightrope
Speaker 5: situation where Jared wanted to tell his story and so
Speaker 5: we wanted to help him tell it, but I just
Speaker 5: wanted to make sure that we did it in a
Speaker 5: way that it wouldn't readily identify her if she didn't
Speaker 5: want to be identified.
Speaker 2: I have a semi question around that, because I get
Speaker 2: that piece of it, but also, is it known to
Speaker 2: the public the story.
Speaker 4: It's not. No one's ever written about it, nobody's.
Speaker 2: Ever in the news. It wasn't in the news.
Speaker 4: It wasn't in the news.
Speaker 2: Okay, So okay, got it, gues. So it's not leading
Speaker 2: to like Okay, got I gotta get it. But is
Speaker 2: this is Jared's name made up too?
Speaker 4: Yes, both of them.
Speaker 5: He has actually since gone rogue and decided to tell
Speaker 5: everybody it's him, so we'll see what happens with that.
Speaker 4: But yes, it just fell into our laps.
Speaker 5: I'm actually shocked that nobody ever wrote anything about this,
Speaker 5: but obviously, you know, we were just so fascinated by
Speaker 5: it and really spoke to him. I it wasn't more
Speaker 5: than two days after everything happened, and we wanted to,
Speaker 5: you know, tell this story and just thought it was
Speaker 5: so wild. And also, you know, since you've heard episode three,
Speaker 5: we also talked to you know, a psychologist about what
Speaker 5: could cause this because we have never We've done so
Speaker 5: much research in the past four years and tried to
Speaker 5: get in touch with so many doctors and nurses and
Speaker 5: and no one has ever heard of somebody taking it
Speaker 5: this far.
Speaker 4: It's it's heard of.
Speaker 5: As you hear another pseudosciesist survivor on episode three, she
Speaker 5: you know, is a really smart girl who has a
Speaker 5: lot of support and she she really couldn't understand why
Speaker 5: her body was not listening to what the information was
Speaker 5: coming into her head.
Speaker 4: And you know we we haven't spoken to Christy.
Speaker 5: I would love to speak to her if she ever
Speaker 5: wanted to talk to us, uh, to hear her side
Speaker 5: of it.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's the.
Speaker 2: Thing, like I that's the side too, And I was
Speaker 2: telling Alan earlier. I'm like, man, I just I would
Speaker 2: love to hear the other side of it as well,
Speaker 2: because it's hard to understand when you have It's kind
Speaker 2: of like, all right, I have anxiety. He doesn't have anxiety,
Speaker 2: So if he doesn't understand what it's like for someone
Speaker 2: to have anxiety and then trying to so it's like
Speaker 2: you want to almost hear the other person's side of
Speaker 2: the story because it's so hard to understand. Like if
Speaker 2: you went to the guy no and you didn't see
Speaker 2: a baby in there, how did you then continue or
Speaker 2: did you just not go to the appointments or like
Speaker 2: that piece. I'm just like, I'm so confused about But
Speaker 2: I also don't understand the mental aspect of the pseudo
Speaker 2: I say it against posiis pseudosysis.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's like the confusing bit because I mean, this
Speaker 5: is there's a lot more to the story that we have.
Speaker 5: We will cover in the next four episode. It's because
Speaker 5: they're seven. But she definitely had pseudocyesis in the sense
Speaker 5: that her and I'll send you a picture of her
Speaker 5: as well. But her belly was fully looked like a
Speaker 5: pregnant woman's belly.
Speaker 2: And that wasn't like that wasn't like a she wasn't
Speaker 2: like putting pillows or stuffing it or anything. No, that
Speaker 2: is wild.
Speaker 5: No, it's a psychosomatic disorder, which is extremely.
Speaker 4: Mental.
Speaker 5: You know, the body, I mean, the body keeps the
Speaker 5: score right, so when you have anxiety, when you have stress,
Speaker 5: it results. But with this condition, you stop having your period,
Speaker 5: you lactate, you know, all of the things, cravings, frequent reurination,
Speaker 5: all the things that we talked about on the show.
Speaker 4: But most times, every doctor we've spoken to, anyone who had.
Speaker 5: Any experience with this, says that when people see that ultrasound,
Speaker 5: they start the process of understanding that there is not
Speaker 5: a baby in the belly, even if they rejected at first,
Speaker 5: you know, like no, check again, check again, I know
Speaker 5: I'm pregnant. I know I'm pregnant. I feel pregnant. I
Speaker 5: don't feel well. I'm this that my body's changing it.
Speaker 5: So again, we haven't found anybody who went nine months
Speaker 5: like she did anybody else, so there so physically she
Speaker 5: did have pseudocyesis however, there are there is also evidence
Speaker 5: that she was covering her tracks, so I just.
Speaker 2: Yeah, see that's that's the piece too where I'm like, was,
Speaker 2: which which one was? It? Can it be both?
Speaker 4: And I think it's true?
Speaker 5: Or yeah, I think it has to be both, right, yeah,
Speaker 5: because it was the you know, she medically she had it,
Speaker 5: but because of the lengths that she went to to
Speaker 5: cover her tracks and to uh convince people that she
Speaker 5: was pregnant, there seems to be some kind of split
Speaker 5: in her, right, So I wonder I would love to know.
Speaker 4: You know, it seems like there's times.
Speaker 5: Of the day where she believes she's pregnant and then
Speaker 5: there's moments where because she had a gender reveal, right,
Speaker 5: so somebody writes down on a piece of paper for
Speaker 5: your girl, right, and her friend made the cake, and
Speaker 5: we have video of her like girl going ballistic, like screaming, jumping,
Speaker 5: you know, and it seems a doctor didn't write girl
Speaker 5: on a piece of paper to give to her to
Speaker 5: give to her friend.
Speaker 4: Somebody wrote it.
Speaker 2: Right, And it's also like I know it was during
Speaker 2: the COVID piece. But at the same time, I mean, babe,
Speaker 2: just think about all the appointments that we just had
Speaker 2: for Roman and the amount of times like can you
Speaker 2: imagine if I was pregnant and you didn't want to
Speaker 2: say like can I see an ultrasound picture of the baby?
Speaker 2: Or can I come see the baby? Or I know,
Speaker 2: like they didn't allow certain amount of people in the
Speaker 2: rooms for those things, and not many women got checked
Speaker 2: during that time. But also like when you think you'd
Speaker 2: want to see an image, some sort of proof.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he did see an image. Was it
Speaker 4: a real image?
Speaker 2: That's the thing?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, was it a real image?
Speaker 5: That's you know, she ordered sonograms that had her name
Speaker 5: on them and the hospital's name and the date, and
Speaker 5: you can get them online and they say, if you
Speaker 5: look it up, it says prank.
Speaker 4: You know, like if you guys, you know, twenty years
Speaker 4: from now.
Speaker 5: You say surprise, babe, Like they all have these disclaimers
Speaker 5: that say it's you know, gag purposes only and so on.
Speaker 4: And so forth. But it wasn't very funny to him.
Speaker 3: So no, I mean, it's such an interesting story. Essure,
Speaker 3: You've got a background in film and TV. What made
Speaker 3: you I said this to Elen, what made you go
Speaker 3: the of making a podcast and not a documentary or
Speaker 3: a TV show or a movie.
Speaker 5: Well, if I'm being perfectly honest with you, we would
Speaker 5: love to do a movie or a TV show about this,
Speaker 5: and a documentary as well. But it was something that
Speaker 5: we felt could thrive first in the podcast space and
Speaker 5: then as IP go to a series, a limited series
Speaker 5: or a film like a Lifetime film or something like that.
Speaker 5: And because we were doing it in COVID, we had
Speaker 5: control of doing the interviews and just kind of getting
Speaker 5: it done immediately, because you know, we spoke to him December,
Speaker 5: right after it happened, and we had him out here
Speaker 5: in early March, and we had him for a few days,
Speaker 5: and then everybody else we just did by zoom, and
Speaker 5: then last May we went to Pennsylvania and did additional
Speaker 5: interviews for some more voices and some more opinions and
Speaker 5: texture and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: When I was listening to the to the first part
Speaker 3: of the of the podcast, and my brain automatically went to,
Speaker 3: why have they not made this a movie? Because it's
Speaker 3: it almost sounds like you remember the Blair Witch project. Yeah,
Speaker 3: remember that, and that ended up a really successful movie then,
Speaker 3: and straight away I'm thinking this could be like like
Speaker 3: the Blair Witch Project, like a real life situation that's
Speaker 3: actually happened. I'm not just sure the Blair Witch Project happened,
Speaker 3: but yeah, but that kind of impact where it instantly
Speaker 3: grabs you and keeps you there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. I was. I was like, all right,
Speaker 2: next episode, next episode, like feet, I was just feeding
Speaker 2: the baby down there, like next episode.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And that's the thing too, like you know, everybody was like,
Speaker 5: oh my god, moms are going to dig this, and
Speaker 5: like you have three children, right, yeah, and so congratulations
Speaker 5: and I was like, yeah, I think but like I'm
Speaker 5: not a mom, and I think it's wild. And we
Speaker 5: everybody that we've had dinner with, that we've pitched or whatever,
Speaker 5: whether they be I uh, single couples, you know, young
Speaker 5: not young, everybody's just like whoa. So I think that's
Speaker 5: another reason why I think a TV show or a
Speaker 5: film about it would be amazing, because we've not nobody's ever.
Speaker 4: Been like mm hm past the salt.
Speaker 2: You know, everyone's just right, like you know what, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean That's why I'm when when did the episodes
Speaker 2: drop because now I need to.
Speaker 5: Tuesdays, so then next episode four will be out on Tuesday.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait to find out more.
Speaker 3: So your enthusiasm for true crime. I think everyone in
Speaker 3: this space is a real love true crime. Did your
Speaker 3: true crime fascination and interest grow from being a criminal
Speaker 3: defense lawyer or did you have it before? Then?
Speaker 5: Well did they even have true crime before I was growth?
Speaker 5: I think for sure that my true crime love grew
Speaker 5: out of being a criminal defense attorney. So I'm also
Speaker 5: raised by a criminal defense attorney. My dad's a criminal
Speaker 5: defense attorney, which is why I went to law school
Speaker 5: to maintain his love, even though I wanted to be
Speaker 5: an actor the whole time. And I think that I
Speaker 5: actually loved being a lawyer and I was pretty.
Speaker 4: Good at it.
Speaker 2: You like to play one instead, yes, exactly.
Speaker 4: Exactly, which I've done multiple times.
Speaker 5: Right, So, but I do think that when I miss
Speaker 5: I miss courtroom stuff, and so I kind of sit.
Speaker 4: There and I'm like objection or you know, like.
Speaker 5: I follow the I like to follow the trials on
Speaker 5: TV too, and then I'm like, I would have done
Speaker 5: that differently, you know, So I do think there definitely
Speaker 5: is a connection for me.
Speaker 2: Speaking of you, you know, doing that. What is one
Speaker 2: of your favorite true crime stories that you've you've heard?
Speaker 5: I mean I watched so many they all blend, But
Speaker 5: this one that really jarred me recently was this woman
Speaker 5: who gave her child away for adoption and then thirty
Speaker 5: years later was.
Speaker 4: Asked for the body test.
Speaker 3: Yeap.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then the mother knew where she was and
Speaker 5: they called her crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like she's like she's in that backyard. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: Like that is the mother's intuition for sure, like my
Speaker 2: child is there, likes.
Speaker 5: Even thinking about it. But yeah, I mean I also,
Speaker 5: I mean the Staircase. I think I've watched that twice.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've seen that one. What are what
Speaker 2: are your thoughts on the Menda's brothers.
Speaker 4: Ooh, you know. I think that.
Speaker 5: Whenever you get a second trial, it's tough for the
Speaker 5: defense because the prosecution has the opportunity to fix all
Speaker 5: the stuff that they did wrong or they didn't land
Speaker 5: with the jury in the first in the first time.
Speaker 4: And I do think that.
Speaker 5: If it was being tried today, the evidence of the
Speaker 5: sexual abuse would.
Speaker 2: Come more into play. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I also think that thirty years is a long time.
Speaker 5: And if the State of California, who is you know, know,
Speaker 5: the plaintiff in this case, because it's a criminal matter, right,
Speaker 5: So it's not mister missus, Menandez versus their sons, it's
Speaker 5: the State of California versus them.
Speaker 4: If the State of California, meaning.
Speaker 5: The District Attorney's office, thinks that this is the right move,
Speaker 5: and they're not only not opposing the defense's request for
Speaker 5: them to be released, but they're saying that they also
Speaker 5: think that they should be released, then who am I
Speaker 5: to judge, you know, in the sense that that there
Speaker 5: are the people that make the decisions about prosecution and
Speaker 5: so on and so forth, they seem comfortable with it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: I tend to believe victims, and I think that there
Speaker 5: was a lot of you know, hullabaloo going on. And
Speaker 5: I do think the thing with Manudo, the you know,
Speaker 5: the kids from Manudo coming forward did help them in
Speaker 5: some way.
Speaker 4: So I say, you know, good for them, bad for
Speaker 4: their parents.
Speaker 5: But even but I feel like even Kitties family members
Speaker 5: and they're supporting it as well. They think that they've
Speaker 5: been in long enough. Yeah, I'm for it, How about
Speaker 5: you guys.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I've got a mixed I've got a
Speaker 3: mixed opinion on it and a mixed view on it
Speaker 3: because I don't regardless of the situation, the sexual abuse too,
Speaker 3: to commit, to commit the brutal crime that they did
Speaker 3: is I would just be scared that they get out
Speaker 3: and something like that happens again.
Speaker 2: Like killing someone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because they pick it and listen, I get
Speaker 3: they were it was aggravated and there's a lot of abuse,
Speaker 3: but they've still picked up a shotgun and shot someone
Speaker 3: out of anger. So I don't. But again, my view
Speaker 3: is I've also I've also got empathy for what they
Speaker 3: went through, So I'm kind of split down the middle.
Speaker 3: But for two guys who went through that amount of
Speaker 3: abuse and torture, there's a part of me wants to
Speaker 3: see them released for sure.
Speaker 2: Is there a true crime out there that you are like,
Speaker 2: they got it wrong, They just got it wrong, especially
Speaker 2: with your background too, with you know, the criminal defense.
Speaker 4: Oh that's such a good question. I'm trying to think.
Speaker 2: I know, there's so many and they all blend together,
Speaker 2: but I was just you know.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I feel, like I said obviously oj it got that
Speaker 2: one wrong.
Speaker 5: Right one, which at the time I didn't think. So
Speaker 5: you know, at the time, I was very happy that
Speaker 5: he got a quitted and I looked back at that
Speaker 5: person and I was like, wow, you were wrong. But
Speaker 5: I would like to know more answers about who uh
Speaker 5: took Casey Anthony's daughter's life.
Speaker 4: I wish that because I like, I love true crime,
Speaker 4: but I hate unsolved mysteries. I don't see what's fun about.
Speaker 5: Unsolved mystery at all. Like I want the answer, I
Speaker 5: want to know. I want to see police doing great work.
Speaker 5: I want to see detectives caring.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't. I don't like unsolved mysteries.
Speaker 5: It I just don't see what's fun about it because
Speaker 5: it's like what happened?
Speaker 4: So I feel like there, I do feel like there's
Speaker 4: a part of me that feels like her parents were
Speaker 4: involved in that and she was just like cool.
Speaker 5: But I'm not sure because I wish that's in one
Speaker 5: that I'm not sure about.
Speaker 2: I totally hear you in the unresolved ones because even
Speaker 2: the I mean the Jean Benet Ramsay's, I mean, we
Speaker 2: grew up with that story and I'm like, I'm always
Speaker 2: like what happened to that sweet little precious girl, you know?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And to not have that resolve is I mean, gosh,
Speaker 2: for the family, I can only imagine it's so hard.
Speaker 2: But then from people that were invested in the news
Speaker 2: stories and trying to be like, you know, what actually happened? Yeah,
Speaker 2: So what movie did we just watch?
Speaker 3: That?
Speaker 2: Was it a true story? It was? It was the
Speaker 2: story very gosh, who uh where the guy was raping
Speaker 2: those girls and she escaped and she called? Was that
Speaker 2: the movie?
Speaker 4: Was the hour that Anna Kendrick one yea yeah.
Speaker 2: Because can you imagine all the people that you know,
Speaker 2: these these guys are still out there doing And there
Speaker 2: was another one too that he had like all these
Speaker 2: other women that he was killing and raping and I'm
Speaker 2: just like wow.
Speaker 5: And he was out three for like twenty years before,
Speaker 5: like like he didn't go straight in that guy, which
Speaker 5: is wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And the fact that, I mean, it's crazy because we
Speaker 5: live in this you know, digital era, Like when I
Speaker 5: was young, people got kidnapped. I don't want to say frequently,
Speaker 5: but it felt like there were posters a lot, and
Speaker 5: I mean it happens now obviously probably even more, but
Speaker 5: like and never were resolved because there was no you know, uh,
Speaker 5: digital footprint really obviously, and so I just think that
Speaker 5: is another thing that's so interesting about how I watched
Speaker 5: a whole series, I think, eight episodes in a week
Speaker 5: about how crimes were solved just by cell phone towers
Speaker 5: and and all that stuff kind of was new around
Speaker 5: like the serial time, you.
Speaker 4: Know, we were just like, what's going on? They're they're
Speaker 4: pinging all over the place, you know.
Speaker 2: So what do you why do you think people are
Speaker 2: as obsessed as they are about true crime?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I read a meme that said that
Speaker 4: we might be psychotic, but I don't.
Speaker 2: Read that too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't love it.
Speaker 2: I read that too.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I've been attacked.
Speaker 5: I do think for me, you know, part of it
Speaker 5: is I like to see the investigation. I like to
Speaker 5: see when the detectives are really smart, you know.
Speaker 4: And I like to see justice for the family. I
Speaker 4: enjoy that a lot. Obviously.
Speaker 5: I don't like the idea of glorifying the murderer, you know,
Speaker 5: And I do think that Anna Kendrick did a lovely
Speaker 5: job of not doing that and with the lens in
Speaker 5: Women of the Hour, because I thought he was a
Speaker 5: creep from jump.
Speaker 4: But I think that that's I think that's what it is.
Speaker 5: I think I like to see when justice is served
Speaker 5: for the families, which sounds weird because I was a
Speaker 5: criminal defense attorney, but I you know, I was a
Speaker 5: federal criminal defense attorney, so they don't have jurisdiction over
Speaker 5: murder per se unless it's a Rico case. You know,
Speaker 5: the states have the jurisdiction over murder. So we did
Speaker 5: a lot more of like drugs and white collar stuff.
Speaker 5: And you know that.
Speaker 3: I guess that was one of my questions because it
Speaker 3: must be so hard as a defense lawyer. And I
Speaker 3: don't know if you defended someone else but they've committed
Speaker 3: the heinous crime and you know they're guilty, but you
Speaker 3: have to defend them. Yeah, so you think you've just
Speaker 3: answered that saying that it was more kind of white
Speaker 3: collar crimes.
Speaker 4: Well, no, it actually well, okay, truth be told.
Speaker 5: I stopped practicing law because of a case that I
Speaker 5: bumped heads with my former employer on that I didn't
Speaker 5: want to do, and that was really damaging to me.
Speaker 4: And I knew that the I believed that.
Speaker 5: The young man was guilty, like my dad is the
Speaker 5: type of lawyer who's like, well, the kid didn't do it.
Speaker 5: I'm like, no, he did it. The burden is proved
Speaker 5: beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's just see what they have.
Speaker 5: And I always feel felt that it was important to
Speaker 5: make sure that there's checks and balances as far as
Speaker 5: the Constitution goes, so that if defense attorneys aren't, you know,
Speaker 5: writing motions about the FBI or the DA or the ATF,
Speaker 5: not waiting for warrants before they go in, or just
Speaker 5: not doing things the right way, that it's going to
Speaker 5: kind of you know that, I don't want them coming
Speaker 5: to my door knocking and just coming in or not
Speaker 5: knocking at all. Right, So I feel like a lot
Speaker 5: of times, the way I looked at it was to
Speaker 5: protect the rights of the non guilty people, the non
Speaker 5: criminally committing.
Speaker 4: People.
Speaker 5: Also, I did federal work, so I didn't win a
Speaker 5: lot because they don't just like somebody robbed a liquor store.
Speaker 4: Let's figure it out, you know. They they really you know,
Speaker 4: the first case.
Speaker 5: I ever had, they had tapped the phone of my client,
Speaker 5: the email account, and his fax machine for eight years
Speaker 5: before they even indicted him. So that was a long
Speaker 5: time to be watching him to find something, and so
Speaker 5: I was kind of liked to be like, Okay, they
Speaker 5: did this, but they didn't do that, And.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that I don't know, I guess I.
Speaker 5: Believe in the constitution, and I think that, you know,
Speaker 5: the police should do their job the right way, but
Speaker 5: do your job.
Speaker 2: You know, right, And I kind of I mean, I
Speaker 2: see how everyone should have their right to have a
Speaker 2: lawyer and to have someone defend them, but also like that, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's a heavy, like a hard line, because it's like,
Speaker 2: how can someone defend somebody that has done something so
Speaker 2: terrible and then try to be like, let's get some
Speaker 2: years off, like you know, but also they have their
Speaker 2: own they have we all have our rights.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it wasn't It wasn't particularly easy for me.
Speaker 5: I loved getting to know people that I would have
Speaker 5: never been friends with or bumped into on the street
Speaker 5: and get to know their life story and realize that
Speaker 5: there's a pattern of abuse and neglect and poverty, and
Speaker 5: you know, it was you know, meeting people that I
Speaker 5: was like, Wow, if you were even raised in my
Speaker 5: crazy family, you probably would be at Harvard.
Speaker 4: But then you also meet sociopaths that you're like, okay,
Speaker 4: jre see hopefully never, but.
Speaker 3: You know for sure, Yeah, what point in your in
Speaker 3: your legal career that like, I've always been interested, at
Speaker 3: what point does someone choose to be a defense lawyer
Speaker 3: and then someone choose to be a prosecution because I've
Speaker 3: always thought it would be so not easier, but a
Speaker 3: more fulfilling role to be a prosecution.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I was raised by a criminal defense attorney. When I
Speaker 5: went to law school, I wanted to be an actor anyways.
Speaker 5: I literally I think I took the alsat what the
Speaker 5: day I came home from spring break. You know, I
Speaker 5: was just like whatever. I went to Brooklyn Law School,
Speaker 5: the Princeton of Nowhere, and I got an agent immediately,
Speaker 5: and I really realized quickly that if I was going
Speaker 5: to practice law, it wasn't going to be contracts or
Speaker 5: corporations or real estate.
Speaker 4: I was going to do criminal law.
Speaker 5: So my last year of law school, I signed up
Speaker 5: for a trial advocacy class, right, which is where you
Speaker 5: perform like you're in court. But I signed up on
Speaker 5: a Monday because I figure, well, if I get to
Speaker 5: play theater Stark on Monday, so I won't have to
Speaker 5: miss the class. Randomly, I get assigned the the DA
Speaker 5: of Brooklyn as my teacher, and I do my opening statement,
Speaker 5: I do my closing statement, I do a direct exam.
Speaker 5: He caused me in the holloway. He's like, you're hired,
Speaker 5: come work for me. I was like, no, I want
Speaker 5: to book a pilot. And so anyways, I did take
Speaker 5: the job because I was like, you know, I can't
Speaker 5: not go into the DA's office in Brooklyn if they
Speaker 5: invited me, I guess it's meant to be. And then
Speaker 5: at the end, like right after I took the bar,
Speaker 5: they sent a letter saying because of the budget, they
Speaker 5: wanted us to start in January instead. So I was like,
Speaker 5: oh my god, it's another sign I should be an actor. Right,
Speaker 5: But at the time I was already working for my
Speaker 5: dad's friend from law school who was a federal criminal
Speaker 5: defense attorney.
Speaker 4: And then by the time it was for us.
Speaker 5: To start for the class of das to start, we
Speaker 5: were deep in that trial that I was telling you
Speaker 5: about about the client that was seven years followed eight years,
Speaker 5: and it just it kind of didn't make sense, like
Speaker 5: I had been working with him for so long. I was,
Speaker 5: you know, it was like a year later. I didn't
Speaker 5: want to miss the trial that I had worked so
Speaker 5: hard on. It was an eight month trial. I didn't
Speaker 5: want to abandon them, So I just did end up going.
Speaker 5: And then a couple of years later I ended up
Speaker 5: moving to la And so I just that's the way
Speaker 5: it went.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, and now you know obviously been in
Speaker 2: a bunch of shows. Is in your husband he's a writer? Yeah,
Speaker 2: so are you guys gonna you know, write and then
Speaker 2: start in like a scandalish kind of show like you know,
Speaker 2: did you guys work well together?
Speaker 5: Or yes, I think we do work well together. We're
Speaker 5: actually writing a legal thriller right now. It's based on
Speaker 5: a book that a really cool studio offered him to adapt.
Speaker 5: And he was like, can I my wife's lawyer, and
Speaker 5: I'll do the shoot him up bank bank stuff and
Speaker 5: she'll do the courtroom stuff.
Speaker 4: So we're doing that, and yeah, I mean, I would
Speaker 4: love to.
Speaker 5: I wrote a pilot that's based on my experience being
Speaker 5: a young federal defense attorney in New York City.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, I mean I love the law.
Speaker 5: I love it. I love being a lawyer, So I
Speaker 5: would love to. I would play lawyer on TV for
Speaker 5: the rest of my life. If I could, to be honest,
Speaker 5: I mean.
Speaker 2: It's I'm trying to think, like it's it would be
Speaker 2: so fun, you know, to do that. I mean I
Speaker 2: always think back and think scandal is amazing. And then
Speaker 2: Jake Gillenhall, I thought he killed it as a lawyer,
Speaker 2: I don't know, presumed innocent. Oh my god. I thought
Speaker 2: it was so good.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was one of my favorite roles of his that
Speaker 2: he's that he's done because I was just I was
Speaker 2: in I believed him, like, yeah, it was great. I
Speaker 2: loved it so good. Those courtroom scenes, like when actor
Speaker 2: can nail that courtroom scene, it's just like the best.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like wow, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know it's it's what's really funny is
Speaker 5: that I was the Well, I don't know if it's funny,
Speaker 5: it's just kind of ironic. I was the on set
Speaker 5: league advisor for HBO's Perry Mason the first season, and
Speaker 5: they were like.
Speaker 4: Well, what we do here? I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 4: The show's set in nineteen eighteen, Like there.
Speaker 1: Was no utter little like man over there, you know,
Speaker 1: like and then, but I did not watch a ton
Speaker 1: of law shows because I could not stand how inaccurate
Speaker 1: they are.
Speaker 4: And then I got jury duty and I was like,
Speaker 4: we are doing that right, but we have to worth,
Speaker 4: you know, for the purpose of storytelling.
Speaker 5: But we had to do so much of it right
Speaker 5: because we had the guy who didn't know it was fake,
Speaker 5: so you know, but that was like terrifying, like every
Speaker 5: day worried that my witnesses were just going to break
Speaker 5: on the stand and be like I forgot what I
Speaker 5: was supposed to say, you know, so literally.
Speaker 4: You know, like, let's hope this goes well, you know,
Speaker 4: but yeah, it's like, okay, well, I guess you have
Speaker 4: to do it.
Speaker 5: You know, right now I can watch them because I
Speaker 5: have empathy for their their plight.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. Okay, so the Unborn tell everyone when where
Speaker 2: they can listen, and is there going to be episodes?
Speaker 2: So after you have you said there's seven, are you
Speaker 2: going to do another then series of another story?
Speaker 5: I mean, if we find one, we would love to,
Speaker 5: you know, like we were talking about make this into
Speaker 5: something narrative, either a TV series or a film.
Speaker 4: Or TV movie.
Speaker 5: Obviously if we there's another idea that I have for
Speaker 5: a podcast that relates to the client that I had
Speaker 5: all those years ago.
Speaker 4: He just got out of jail. But I do think
Speaker 4: I would be open to it.
Speaker 5: But I would also even be open to going another
Speaker 5: like if Christy wanted to tell her side of the story.
Speaker 4: Or if during the course of this if more people
Speaker 4: come out.
Speaker 5: Because I I'm so glad that it's entertaining, but I
Speaker 5: also want the whole picture too, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 5: but yeah, So The Unborn is out now. It's on
Speaker 5: iHeart Radio and wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Amazon,
Speaker 5: et cetera. But it comes out every Tuesday. Right now,
Speaker 5: the first three episodes are out, so if you haven't
Speaker 5: you can binge those and then every Tuesday for the
Speaker 5: next four weeks until we finished seven.
Speaker 2: I love it. Well, Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2: Good luck with everything, and wait to watch one of
Speaker 2: your shows.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. Great to meet you.
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming girl you Tube.
Speaker 5: Okay, bye bye bye bye