1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuffworks 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick and 4 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: Robert and I. Last time, we're talking about the rapture 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: about Christian eschatology, religious eschatology in general, and secular eschatology 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: of a technological nature such as the singularity trans humanism. 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: And our discussion went so long that we decided to 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: divide it up into two parts. So here is the 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: second part of our conversation on the end times. Okay, well, 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: I've got another uh futurist, sort of techno futurist mindset 11 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: that I think we can ask. Is this a religion? 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: Is it like a religion or does it just sort 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: of like uh tickle some of the same weak spots 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: We've got as many religions too. So I want to 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: talk about the singularity. Robert, do you feel good about 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: the Singularity? You feel bad about it? You think it's 17 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of whoy? I feel good about it? U. 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: I mean part of that I think comes from just 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: being I'm a fan of like the E and M 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: Banks culture series model of of a post singularity post 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: scarcity world in which the super intelligent computers have our 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: best interests at heart. They kind of look after us 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: as kind of benevolent, semi noble gods. Yeah, okay, okay, Well, 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: so I think we need to explore this idea because this, 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: to me is is the core of this kind of 26 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: topic we're talking about today, like technological eschatology. So you 27 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: could say that the singularity, I think has come to 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: have almost as many interpretations as the Christian escuoton, right, Like, 29 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: just like the Christian eschatology is, they're all sort of 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: loosely related and grounded in similar beliefs, but they vary 31 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: in the explicit details or in the way you'd explain them, 32 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: even if they're not necessarily contradictory. So, in the most basics, 33 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: and the singularity is a hypothesis that technological innovation, at 34 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: some point in the future is going to reach a 35 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: tipping point of unimaginable innovation that fundamentally changes the fate 36 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: of humanity on a rapid time scale. Very often it 37 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: involves artificial intelligence. So I'm gonna talk about three basic 38 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: models just to give you an idea. One one is 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: the super intelligence model, and this is the idea that 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: humans are going to create superhuman artificial intelligence. So when 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: you think about it, intelligence, I would probably agree has 42 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: been the most rapid driver of change in the universe 43 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: up until this point. Like in cosmological or geological history. 44 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: What difference does ten thousand years usually make to anything? 45 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: You know, not a lot, hardly any, But you think 46 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: about how much Earth has changed in the past ten 47 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: thousand years due to intelligence. Once, once we reach the 48 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: creation of machines with functional intelligence exceeding that of any human, 49 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: assuming that actually does happen, proponents argue that this superhuman 50 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence is just going to rapidly transform our environment. 51 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: The conditions of our lives, and the capabilities of human 52 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: civilization will be fundamentally transformed on a very huge scale. 53 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: And they say, so the age of super intelligence is dawning, 54 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: and this is the singularity. Another way of looking at 55 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: it is also based on artificial intelligence, but it's known 56 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: as the intelligence explosion, and this is based on the 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: idea of self improving intelligence paradigms that surpass our ability 58 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: to understand or control them. So let's say, Robert, you 59 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: build a superhuman artificial intelligence. What's the first thing you 60 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: have it do um, co author my paper about the 61 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: creation superhero human AI intelligence. Oh yeah, well that's that's 62 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: a smart move. But do some talk shows to promote 63 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: it and my book about the creation? Yeah? I guess yeah, 64 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: it's hard to think past that. Come up with the 65 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: tastiest breakfast cereal ever created. No. I mean what a 66 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: lot of people say is, well, you know, the best 67 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: bang for your buck as soon as you create a 68 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: superhuman artificial intelligence is that it would be best put 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: to use designing ways to rapidly make itself more intelligent, 70 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: which theoretically it should be able to do. So. If 71 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: it can do this, it will experience exponential self improvement 72 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: and not only will our technological intelligence grow, and not 73 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: only will it accelerate, but it's acceleration will accelerate. I 74 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: feel like the people saying that that's the best use 75 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: of super intelligence UM have not seen any science fiction film, 76 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: because it seems like the thing to do is all right. 77 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: It's it's reached the point to where it's smart enough 78 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: that I can take it to Vegas and and just 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: totally kill But it's not so smart that it will 80 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: literally kill me or or Sky at the entire country. Well, 81 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I think the argument would 82 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: go that, well, even if you don't do that, somebody's 83 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: gonna somebody's gonna say, well, I want to have a 84 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: smarter AI than your AI, so I'm gonna have my 85 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: AI improve itself that I don't know. You take your 86 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: AI to a poker game, and somebody else has been 87 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: having their AI self improve its own intelligence, and it's 88 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: telling that person out this metaphors out of hand. But 89 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: but you want to be the person with the smartest day. 90 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: I right, Well, but it's kind of like you're you're 91 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: reaching a point where you can create your own demons, 92 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: create your own deities, and in doing so, it seems 93 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: like you you need to know where to stop, like like, 94 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: maybe not make a full blown god, that make a 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: demi god, and let me make an artificial demigod, because 96 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: then then at least it has limits. Right, Yeah, you 97 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: want a Hercules not a Zeus. Yeah, I far rather 98 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: deal with a her renegade or Hercules this in a 99 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: situation as opposed to a renegades Zeus, which of course 100 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: is I mean, that's pretty much how both of those 101 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: guys rolled what they wanted Okay. One more idea of 102 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: the singularity, and this is a I think a simpler version, 103 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: but it just is that at some point technological process 104 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: again usually the emphasis is on artificial intelligence, but you 105 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: could put the emphasis elsewhere. At some point it begins 106 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: to accelerate so quickly that our power to predict the 107 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: outcome becomes basically zero. Events will become so strange and 108 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: unpredictable that we we just can't even imagine them from 109 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: our present vantage point. So an outside context indent, yeah, sure, 110 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: outside context problem caused by technological innovation. Yeah. So a 111 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: lot of modern singularity thinking can be traced, and there 112 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: are plenty people who have written about this over the years, 113 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: but I'd say the biggest figure in the singularity today 114 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: is Ray Kerswile. He's the technologist and author. Rakers while 115 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: very smart guy, worked on technology for years. He's made 116 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: a lot of very accurate and interesting predictions that have 117 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: that have proved correct over the years. But he's also 118 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: made a lot of predictions about the future that a 119 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: lot of people now think are I don't know, maybe 120 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: he's being overly optimistic, but anyway, Kerswill has argued in 121 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: several books that the Singularity, This artificial intelligence revolution that's 122 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: going to fundamentally change humanity is coming, and it's coming soon. 123 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: In his two thousand five books, the Singularity is near, 124 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: Cursewell predicted it would happen in so, Robert, you've got 125 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: any plans for um? I think my son will be 126 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: out of high school at that point. I think he's 127 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: he's uh graduating high school theoretically in so Okay, So 128 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: I guess, I'm so. I don't know. Well, we have 129 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: a job by the time the Singularity happened. I don't know. Yeah, 130 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: it's it's crazy to think about that, Like what do 131 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: you what do you? What do you do post high 132 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: school if the Singularity is coming in just a few years, 133 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: Like do you go to college? Hey? With with the 134 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: singularity in mind bingo, that is a very good question. 135 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: So so let's back up. Let's just assume for a 136 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: moment a Singularity type scaton is coming. That might be 137 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: a big assumption, but let's assume something like that will happen. 138 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: Is it good or bad? Will we get the AI 139 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: my Trea or the AI Ragnarok? Who well, obviously I 140 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: want my Traya as opposed to Ragnarock. Yeah, I mean, 141 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: so the my Trea version, what would it be? You know, 142 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: war cease, all diseases, including aging itself or eradicated. There's 143 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: general abundance of resources and wealth. Everybody gets what they want. 144 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: Humans live indefinitely in a state of harmony, exploration, and bliss. 145 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: If I feel like the model we get in most 146 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: sci fi scenarios is that you think you're gonna get 147 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,479 Speaker 1: my Treia, but then you're actually on the road to Ragnarok, 148 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: and then you end up just kind of burning everything 149 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: down and going back to whatever nest up system you 150 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: had before. Right, So why do people think that we're 151 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: on the road to Ragnarok? Well, you mentioned earlier, you know, 152 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: the machine, a machine smart enough to to do all 153 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: this great stuff for you, is also smart enough to 154 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: figure out how to kill you if it wants to. 155 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: So why might it want to? Well, super intelligent machines, 156 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 1: people say, well, either intentionally choose to eliminate humanity for 157 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: some reason, though I admit I've never heard this explain 158 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: in a way that made a lot of sense to me, 159 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: Like why they would intentionally choose to hunt us down 160 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: and eradicate us. So maybe somebody could explain that to me, Um, 161 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: but the judge of the living and the dead, it 162 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: could be. But but the other version is that perhaps 163 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: merely by a flow of design, they tend to damage 164 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: or destroy humanity as a byproduct of executing their primary function, 165 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: and that that vision seems more plausible to me. But so, 166 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: here's one common example of how something like this would go. 167 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: You've got a super intelligent computer program that's smarter than 168 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: any human. It can improve its own intelligence, is just 169 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: crazy smart, and it's designed to maximize efficiency along the 170 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: production line of a factory that makes toilet paper. So 171 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: somebody forgets to add some conditionals, and the computer program 172 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: ends up turning all the atoms on the surface of 173 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: the earth, including the ones in your body, into toilet paper. 174 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: It has done its job. Well, that sounds kind of crazy, 175 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: but some tam or version of that nightmare seems more 176 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: plausible to me than the intentional terminator style eradication of humans. 177 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what do you think about that, Robert Um? Yeah, 178 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: I think I tend to interpret the sort of sky 179 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: Net models the sort of like all humans are flawed. 180 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: That's thus all humans must be eradicated. Thing to be 181 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: more of a uh more more rejecting insecurities. Well that 182 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: and also just a bedtime story to say, like make 183 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: sure you program and that failsafe, you know. And I 184 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: feel like, obviously we would have that failsafe, and if 185 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: it were a super intelligent machine, it would have. Yeah. 186 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: I just have a hard time buying into that model 187 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: of a super advanced system that it would be so 188 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: catastrophically myopic. Yeah. I mean, both visions have their advocates 189 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: right there. There are smart people on both sides. But 190 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: the funny thing is all this is assuming that something 191 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: like the Singularity will actually happen one way or another, 192 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: and not everyone agrees that it will. But there are 193 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: also people who have been critical of the idea of 194 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: the singularity, and some people who have characterized it as 195 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: a religious idea inherently. One of them is the technologist 196 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: and virtual reality pioneer Jerone Lanier, and he's got a 197 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: lot of opinions about the Singularity. He's made this case 198 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: in in in books, said that it's not only religious 199 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: in nature, but potentially a dangerous or harmful religion. So 200 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: I read an article that he wrote and published in 201 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: The New York Times in two thousand ten called the 202 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: first Church of robotics, and I thought this was interesting. 203 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: So Laniard points out that every news report of an 204 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: advance in artificial intelligence gives us the impression that the 205 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: field is making steady progress to overtake human intelligence in 206 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: cape of alities, and I sort of agree with him. 207 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: I get that feeling when you see these little news 208 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: stories like there's there's a new artificial intelligence program that 209 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: can smell flatulence, There's a new artificial intelligence program that 210 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: can tell a joke. You know, all these like weird 211 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: little quirks of humanity, and they seem to add up 212 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: to something over time. Okay, so it can smell farts, 213 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: that can make jokes about farts, because it's it's about 214 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: the corner with the standard it has become Adam Sandler, Yeah, 215 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: it has surpassed its humanity. But yeah, so there's nothing 216 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: wrong with individual AI projects, Landier says, In fact, he 217 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: has worked on them himself. But he makes a couple 218 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: of points. He says individual advances in artificial intelligence research 219 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: can be interpreted more usefully without the overall framework of AI, 220 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: meaning without the idea that computers are becoming synthetic versions 221 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: of human intelligence. And the example he gives his you know, 222 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: the IBM computer winning on Jeopardy, Watson going on, are 223 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: beating people on Jeopardy. So he he says, that's a 224 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: theatrical stunt that over sells a fake aspect of what 225 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: this computer program can do, you know, conversational human knowledge, 226 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: which it doesn't really have, and undersells a real aspect 227 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: of its capabilities that it's a very powerful phrase based 228 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: search engine. And then he also says that AI, uh, 229 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: that the AI that in some way passes for human 230 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: requires humans to do all the work. Like when you've 231 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: got a social robot, you know, going around saying like Hi, 232 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: I'm your friendly social robot. Look at how advanced my 233 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence is. His point is that humans, being social, 234 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: will work with what they get. And if you're having 235 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,599 Speaker 1: a transaction with a robot that you are told is 236 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: social and nature, you can very easily adapt your social 237 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: behaviors to the extreme limitations of this machine, and they 238 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: do tend to be pretty extreme. You're not gonna mistake 239 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: at a machine for a human. Yeah, I mean, as 240 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: we've discussed on a show before, or I mean humans 241 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: can have we can have conversations with with a with 242 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: a doll with a with a smiley face. It's scrawled 243 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: on the wall and in putting. So, uh, it's not 244 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: that much of a step to say that, yes, we 245 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: can have a conversation with a chat bot. We can, 246 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: we can have a conversation with the search engine, and 247 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: of course we can certainly have a conversation with an 248 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: echo borg. How often, though, do you meet a person 249 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: who really loves fruit trees? That's true, I love fruit trees. 250 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: I hate fruit trees. But how can you hate fruit 251 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: trees because I'm not a robotlet what would you do 252 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: if you found a turtle? The turtles on his back? 253 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: Why aren't you turning him over? Joe? But what what? 254 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: What I'll tell you about my mother? Okay? Sorry? So 255 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: but anyway, A layer goes on to say, quote, what 256 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: bothers me about this trend? And he's talking about this 257 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: AI media trend. However, is that by allowing artificial intelligence 258 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: to reshape our concept of personhood, we're leaving ourselves opened 259 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: to the flip side. We think of people more and 260 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: more as computers, just as we think of computers as people. 261 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: And I think there might be something to that, actually, 262 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: that the idea of AI not only sort of lifts 263 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: computers up, but in a certain way, at least emotionally 264 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: kind of lowers humans down. Yeah. And we we've discussed this, 265 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: I feel recently on the show too, about how just 266 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: even though we we have this increasingly pervasive model of 267 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: our own cognitive performance as being essentially a program, we 268 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: think about processing things, we think about visual input of data, 269 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: we think about crunching the numbers, uh, and various other 270 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: models we use technology to inform our understanding of how 271 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: our brains are working. And those are just those are 272 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: just metaphors really, and but the underlying processes are not 273 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: really comparable to the computers that we have today. It 274 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: would be we could maybe compare them to an advanced 275 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: computer will have in the in the future, some sort 276 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: of maybe um, you know, um advanced machine maybe. Yeah. Yeah, 277 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: I think that's true. Uh, They're they're very much metaphors. 278 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that they're not useful metaphors, but 279 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: I do think I want to take what Lanni you 280 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: are saying seriously here, because I think he has a point. Anyway, 281 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: he goes on when he's going to get to the singularity, 282 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: so he says, you know, engineers are humans with human desires, 283 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: even though they may be advocating this sort of like 284 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: dehumanized technological ideology or view of intelligence in personhood in 285 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: the world. And they've got the same desires that lead 286 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: us to create and follow religions. So this sort of 287 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: leads them to wrap their technological ideologies up into parallels 288 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: of religious thinking. And he and according to Lannier, he 289 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: thinks the concept of the singularity is a religion expressed 290 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: through engineering culture. And he points out if this religion entails, 291 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, essentially scatological beliefs that imply that most people, basically, 292 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: I would say, anybody not working in information theory, artificial intelligence, 293 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: or robotics, if pretty much anybody outside those fields can 294 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: basically just sit and wait for imminent salvation or destruction 295 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: via the machines. And if inadvertent devaluation of persons by 296 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: overstating analogies between persons and computers takes place, it can 297 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: certainly exacerbate tensions between traditional religions and modernity, and it 298 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: can be a destructive and demoralizing force in itself. So anyway, 299 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 1: he ends by saying technology best serves humanity when we 300 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: resist the urge to turn it into a religious ideology. Yeah, 301 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: because otherwise you end up in a situation where you're like, 302 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: I could, I could exercise and eat right, but singularities 303 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: come in. Singularities gonna work that out, or you might think, 304 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm not even gonna bother to write the Great American novel, 305 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: because Great American Novel bought thirty seven oh five. It's 306 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: going to write the Great American novel. It's gonna write 307 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: one a day, one every hour. I could work hard 308 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: to achieve peace in world civilization, but maybe the Ai'll 309 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: sort it all out for this or just kill us all. 310 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean, either one. It's sort of a demoralizing, de 311 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: motivating belief, which of course has obvious parallels with you know, 312 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: more apocalyptic near future religious movements that said the end 313 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: time is coming, So what does it matter? Give me 314 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: your money now? Certainly? Yeah, what whether it's a secular 315 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: or you know, supernatural or not supernatural in nature, If 316 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: you've got beliefs about a powerful force that comes in 317 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: and intervenes and makes all of our actions obsolete, either 318 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: either way it comes from that seems like it can 319 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: have a de motivating force on the way you live. 320 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: Your life. But I want to say one more thing 321 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: Linear says about the Singularity that I think is interesting. 322 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: Uh So, I listened to a podcast that was an 323 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: interview with Linear and and he says, quote, the difference 324 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: between a religious fanatic and a religious non fanatic is 325 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: in certainty of the imminent timing of whatever their escaton is, 326 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: you know, whatever their end of days is. It's when 327 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: you believe that you know when it's happening and it's 328 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: soon that you really turn into a nutcase and you 329 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: do harm to yourself and others. In my mind, the 330 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: Singularity movement is sort of doing that. And I think 331 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: I see what he's saying there, because he sort of 332 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: qualifies saying that if you mean, in the very long 333 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: term view, humanity will make some phase transition, and it 334 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: has something to do with information technology that's not necessarily 335 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: crazy or harmful. You know, you might say, who knows, 336 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: over the next few thousands of years, some somehow humanity 337 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: might change itself, uh, due to computers and the Internet 338 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. But the notion that it's going 339 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: to happen in twenty years or something is destructive and 340 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: a sign of fanaticism. According to him, and I think 341 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: that that idea makes sense to me too. Well, in 342 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: large part, you could say, you're you're setting yourself up 343 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: for disappointment, You're setting yourself up to fail right, that 344 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: you're going to reach that point when the second Coming 345 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: is going to happen, when the Singularity is going to happen, 346 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: and then it doesn't happen, and then how do you 347 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: feel about the world. Then how do you approach the 348 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: near and long term future? Well, I think that is 349 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: definitely something we should talk about in just a moment, 350 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: But I want to finish up on the Singularity with 351 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: one or two more things. First of all, I want 352 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: to go back and defend against that by saying, there 353 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: are also people who say, you know, look, if we're 354 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: worried about the Ai Ragnarok uh saying the Ai is 355 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: gonna come in and destroy us, all we do need 356 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: to be thinking about it now, even if it's not 357 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: gonna happen soon. Just the possibility that it might happen 358 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: soon means that we need to be preparing immediately. I 359 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: can see the wisdom in that too. I mean, I 360 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: don't know, it's uh. At the risk of sounding fascil, 361 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 1: I I see both sides, Yeah, well, I mean, certainly, 362 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: h if the iceberg is out there, we want to 363 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: know how not to run the ship into it. But 364 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: then again, but what if iceberg is a superhuman robot 365 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: that you don't even know whether it could possibly exist 366 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: or not. Well, that's the kind of thinking that enables 367 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: humanity time and time again to not actually, you know, 368 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: deal with the problems they're facing them, to just say, ah, 369 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: it might not even be real. So I don't know, 370 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: the jury is still out on the science there. So 371 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: I want to offer one more thing, the impossible defense 372 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: of singularity thinking. I found a short video on YouTube 373 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: where somebody in a crowd asks Ray Kurzweil himself, the 374 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: guy who said it's going to happen if the Singularity 375 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: is a religion and curs while responds that. He says, essentially, 376 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: it does provide some of the same things that religion 377 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: traditionally provided, like a means to forestall death. That's worth 378 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: pointing out. But it's also not a religion inherently because 379 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: it's based on scientific and technological prediction. And he said, 380 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: quote it doesn't start from rapture. He also says, quote 381 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: religion and or just in pre scientific times. To call 382 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: it a religion is to say that it's pre scientific 383 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: or unscientific. And I think, you know, maybe or maybe not, 384 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: Like I definitely do sense that some people who call 385 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: the singularity of religion, because Landing is not the only 386 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: one who said this, this is a thing people say 387 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: in criticism of it. I think some people are merely 388 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: being pejorative. You've noticed that if you ever heard anybody 389 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: call something that's not a religion a religion, it's an insult. 390 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: And that interesting, like, uh, that political candidate you agree 391 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: with Greg Stillson Man, you all you Greg Stilson supporters 392 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: are like a religion that's never a positive thing. Yeah. Yeah, 393 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean I find myself doing that less and less 394 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: because I feel like I can have it's just me personally. 395 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: But I think there are plenty of things that I 396 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: can say, Oh, I have kind of a religious interest 397 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: in this. Yeah, not to say that I am, you 398 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: know that it's some sort of like fanatical, like unrealistic 399 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: level of enthusiasm for it, but like I I kind 400 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: of measure it like to the amount of my person 401 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: the amount of my identity, uh that I pour into 402 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: the topics. So I would say that I have religious 403 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: or semi religious enthusiasm for things like science, for certain uh, 404 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: for certain fictional worlds and ideas, um Robert. If I 405 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: may compliment you, I think that's a sign of broad 406 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: minded thinking. I mean, no, I think both religious and 407 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: non religious people. I don't think this is really limited 408 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: to people who think religion is in some way a 409 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: bad thing. But I think generally both religious and non 410 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: religious people insult a thing that's not explicitly a religion 411 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: by calling it a religion. Yeah, I would agree with that, yes, 412 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, in your sense, it doesn't have to be. 413 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways we could just observe, like, okay, 414 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: not assuming that calling something a religion is a bad thing. Uh. 415 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: In what ways is the Singularity like a religio gen Well, 416 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: I think it does have a lot of similarities. It 417 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: does seem to offer a means to forestall death. It 418 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: does seem to offer uh, potentially both apocalyptic and utopian 419 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: schatological visions. It does seem to rely I don't know 420 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: if I would say it relies on faith in the 421 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: same way that many supernatural beliefs to do. But it 422 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: does seem to sort of ask you to to imagine 423 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: the possibility that things that we've never seen before are 424 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: going to happen. You know, we've never seen superhuman artificial 425 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: intelligence before. There's no evidence that that can in principle exist. 426 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: We but we also just don't know that it couldn't. 427 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: So it's just like maybe maybe not all right, So 428 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: it seems like a good place to bring it back 429 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: around to trans humanism and rapture the idea that there 430 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: are all these similarities between the two things, there are 431 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: certain conflicts between these two ideas, and then at the 432 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: very end here we may have just a little fun 433 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: thinking about how the two crash into each other. Okay, 434 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: tell me, because here's one thing I've noticed, I think, 435 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: and I haven't seen any data to back this episode. 436 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: This is just purely anecdotal experience. In my experience, people 437 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: who identify with trans humanism or belief in the singularity 438 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly atheist or agnostic, non traditionally religious people. Yes, 439 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: you do see a great deal of that. However, it 440 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 1: is worth pointing out that again they have at least 441 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: two organizations. You have the Mormon trans Humanist Association. That's 442 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 1: the world's largest advocacy network. Really, yeah, for the ethical 443 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: use of technology and religion to expand human abilities. That's 444 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: they're they're from there, they're talking points. Then you also 445 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: have the Christian trans Humanist Association, and um, you know, 446 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: each one has their own sort of set of guidelines 447 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: and all. Um. Uh and I could I could certainly 448 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 1: roll through a lot of this. But for instance, um 449 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: that the Mormon trans Humanis Association has this idea that 450 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: they push of a transfigurism. They said transfigure they say, 451 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: transfigurism is religious trans humanism exemplified by syncretization of Mormonism 452 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: and trans humanism. That's awesome. Um. And in meanwhile, the 453 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: Christian trans Humanist Association, one of their tenants is that 454 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: God's mission involves the transformation and renewal of creation, including humanity, 455 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,439 Speaker 1: and that we are called by Christ to participate in 456 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: that mission, working against illness, hunger, oppression, in justice, and death. Uh. Well, yeah, 457 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: I mean you could look at it that way. For 458 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: some reason, the idea of transforming the human animal, it's 459 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 1: one of those things that I I don't see in 460 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: any way that it violates any tenants I recognize of Christianity, 461 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: but it seems just sort of like esthetically in affront 462 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: to traditional religious thinking. It's a lot of what we 463 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: talked about in our you know, UH Techno Religion episodes 464 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: that we did earlier. And you could say that this 465 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: episode is in many ways a sequel to those, or 466 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: it's in that spirit. But in the Techno Religion episodes, 467 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: we talked about how religious thinking seems most encouraged by 468 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: a traditional technological atmosphere, and when you bring computers and 469 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: iPhones and stuff, it just does seem profane in some way. 470 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: And there's nothing in the Bible or in any religious 471 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: text I know of that says thou shalt not bring 472 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: a computer into a worship service. But you know, it 473 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: just doesn't feel very sacred. Yeah, it doesn't feel right. Now. 474 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: Going back to the the idea of sort of Christian 475 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: transhumanist ideas that James J. Hughes paper that I mentioned earlier, Um, 476 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: he calls uh up a quote from a fourteen eighties 477 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: six UH work by Pico Della Mirandola. It was a 478 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: Christian humanist and in his orritation on the dignity of 479 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: man wrote quote to you has granted the power of 480 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: degrading yourself into the lower forms of life. The beasts 481 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: or to you as granted the power contained in your 482 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: intellect and judgment to be reborn into the higher forms 483 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: the divine um, and and and he wrote other other 484 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: statements as well that kind of backed up this kind of, 485 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: you know, way pre humanist notion of how one might 486 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: improve the expression of human life. Well. Yeah, I mean, if, 487 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: for example, Jesus said take all you have and give 488 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: to the poor, then wouldn't the Christian who thinks that 489 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: we can achieve abundance through technology be best served by 490 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: working on technology that will eliminate all scarcity and bring 491 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: great resources to everyone. Yeah, it seems like you would 492 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: be in favor of any trans humanist idea that does 493 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: not attempt to interfere with God's plan for humanity. Um, so, 494 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: I guess it depends on what you think that plan is. 495 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: Right now, this is where we get into an interesting idea. 496 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: And this is kind of where uh okay, So, first 497 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: of all, you see a lot of especially the conspiracy theory, 498 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: sort of the the Christian conspiracy theoryst area of the internet. 499 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: You see a lot of mashing up of trans humanist 500 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: ideas with with the bad guys in in a book 501 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: of revelations. Oh yeah, remember how I mentioned the ones 502 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: who get to rule with Christ in the millennium are 503 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: those who have not taken the mark of the Beast 504 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: and many and what is the mark of the beast? 505 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: I've seen various interpretations where they say, oh, the mark 506 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: of the beast is trans humanism, Like to become transhuman 507 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: is to take the mark of the beast, and therefore 508 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: only sort of uh, you know, non augmented humans are 509 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: going to be part of this model. There have been 510 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: many visions of the mark of the Beast in Christian 511 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: literature that thought that it was going to be some 512 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,959 Speaker 1: sort of biometric verification. So imagine that you replace your 513 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: credit card with a barcode or a chip in your 514 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: arm or your head or your hand or something like 515 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: that that you can use to pay for groceries or 516 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: something like that just by scanning your body. A lot 517 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: of people have said, well, something like this is coming 518 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: and that's got to be it. That's the mark of 519 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: the beast. And in the Antichrist is perhaps the AI. Right, 520 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: this this post singularity artificial intelligence that that we're investing 521 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: all of our our faith and energy into. And I 522 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: put it, this is an interesting idea too. I have 523 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: seen arguments to say that the Illuminati or the anti 524 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: Christ or the Illuminati and the inn of Christ. However, 525 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: you want to factor those two bad guy factions together, 526 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: they are going to create a fake rapture in order 527 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: to trick the faithful into thinking that the rapture has 528 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: already occurred and they were left out, thus like dismantling 529 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: their faith a bit. That is an awesome conspiracy theory. 530 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: It is um and that's like the mother of them all. Yeah. 531 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: I found some some stuff online about it, dating back 532 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: from around two thousand UM, and they were weirdly propping 533 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: up some of this by pointing to a Technology Review 534 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: you article about the about editing live video, editing people 535 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: out of live video. Uh. The idea being here that 536 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: through mass media consumption, you could fake the rapture of 537 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: individuals and and if I may, I'm thinking if the 538 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: Illuminati is involved in this, you could then disappear like 539 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: famous a moral individuals and say, hey, check out this, 540 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: this particular awful celebrity just got raptured. You didn't clearly 541 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: you should abandon all of your faith. That is uh, 542 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: that is mighty sinister Robert or is it though, because Okay, 543 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: so if and I'm playing with the ideas here and 544 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: having some fun with the ideas, but if the Antichrist 545 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: is an artificial intelligence, could it be a benevolent artificial 546 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: intelligence that has realized, Hey, if the off if the 547 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: end times come, that's bad for all these humans that 548 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: I'm protecting. What can I, as an all powerful AI 549 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: do in humans? Is soxiety to prevent the end times 550 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: from coming? Does that mean faking the rapture and perhaps 551 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: forestalling the rapture? Well, I know many Christians believe that 552 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: the Antichrist will come in the name of peace, and 553 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: that is weird. You would end up in a scenario 554 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: where you would say, no, peace is bad because we 555 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: actually need all that tribulation to come so that the 556 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: good guys can ultimately win, even though it's going to 557 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: mean a lot of a lot of suffering. Okay, we've 558 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: gotten very, very deep into the both secular and religious 559 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: theology of the end here, so maybe we should pull back. 560 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: Are you ready to pull back back? Let's pull back 561 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: to the real world and and look at a few 562 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: examples of what happens when our our scatons, when our 563 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: spiritual end times utopias or apocalypse is don't come about 564 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: as predicted. So there have been so many religious predictions 565 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: of the end times that have failed. There is no 566 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: way we can even begin to list them. I would 567 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: recommend you go to Wikipedia. Here's a great Wikipedia page, 568 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: uh called list of dates predicted for apocalyptic events. There 569 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: are just hundreds, uh and it's it's really interesting. One 570 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: of my favorites is the leader of the or one 571 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: of the leaders of the Monster rebellion, the Anabaptist rebellion 572 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: in Prussia, Jon Matthias. He had a good in times 573 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: prediction that didn't turn out good for him, and I 574 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: think he ended up mutilated. And yeah, anyway, things things 575 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: don't tend to well, actually not tend to Why am 576 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: I hedging? No one who has ever predicted the end 577 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: of the world has turned out to be correct that 578 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: that is a true statement. Inevitably these predictions fail. And 579 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: then what happens when they fail, Because if you're the 580 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: kind of individual who's thrown out these these predictions, you 581 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: tend to have there tend to be people listening to you, 582 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: reading your word, gathering around you, maybe giving you all 583 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: of their money. On living in a barn with you 584 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: or in a bunker, or planning for spaceships to come 585 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: and steal you away so you can avoid massive floods. Um. 586 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: And then how do you readjust well, there's a there 587 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: was a famous book came out from psychologist Leon Festinger 588 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: titled Win Prophecy Fails, and this is this was an 589 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: important work. He and his colleagues studied the Seekers, a 590 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: religious group that believed a massive flood would wipe out 591 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: the West coast uh and and the founders said that 592 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 1: beings from the planet Clarion were communicating to her through 593 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: automatic writing. Uh And then the followers were banning their jobs, possessions, 594 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: their spouses to wait on the flying saucers that would 595 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: rescue them. And then nothing happened. So so they all 596 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: they all figured they were wrong and went home right, No, no, no, 597 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: And and this is something we can sort of see. 598 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: I guess we can look for models of this in 599 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: our own lives on lesser with with lesser um lesser steaks. 600 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: One example that in only comes to mind, and we 601 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: see a lot of this in sort of geek culture, 602 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: and that is what happens from that movie that you're 603 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: super excited about. It doesn't get that great of reviews, 604 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: how do you respond. Do you say, uh, well, maybe 605 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 1: it's not going to be that good, or you see 606 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: it and you think, okay, well I agree with the 607 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: critics and it wasn't that good. Or do you do 608 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,959 Speaker 1: do you double down? Oh? Many will double down, yes, 609 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: depending on I think a lot of times it's based 610 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: on how much you've invested in the movie going into it. 611 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: So if there's a movie you hoped would be good, 612 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: but you thought about it a couple of times before 613 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: it came out, and then you see the reviews aren't good, 614 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: that's oh, that's disappointing. If it's a movie you've been 615 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: talking about with your friends every single day up until 616 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: it comes out, and then the reviews aren't good, you're like, 617 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: well they gotta be wrong. Now it's it's sunk cost. Now, obviously, 618 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: with films, you can simply argue, well, hey, I enjoyed it, 619 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: so I don't care. Uh, certainly, I'm I'm the type 620 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: of person who enjoys many bad movies, and I you know, 621 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna apologize. Is about say liking Chronicles a 622 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: ritic it's a it's a bad movie. I'm not gonna 623 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,439 Speaker 1: argue it's good, but but it certainly was enjoyable. Robert, 624 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: I have a question for you. You seem like maybe 625 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: the right guy for this. Were you one of the 626 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: few people who liked on Lee's Hulk. Yeah, well, I 627 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: enjoyed it at the time. I didn't like love it, 628 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 1: but I was like that that's the Hulk. He's holking 629 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: it up there. Yeah. I like the follow up more, 630 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: but I don't think. I don't think people were in 631 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: love with that one. Like that one, even though it 632 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: was an early Marvel Cinematic Universe movie with the one 633 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: with Edward Norton. Yeah, yeah, I feel like I enjoyed 634 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: that seemed kind of forgettable. Yeah, that one the the 635 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: the those who are a member of the religion of 636 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: the Marvel Cinematic Universe, they do not bring that particular 637 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: book of the Marvel Cinematic Bible up that much. It 638 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: is the it is the problematic chapter in the scripture. 639 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: It's like second Chronicles. People just don't quote from it 640 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,359 Speaker 1: a whole lot. But it I've getting a little off 641 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: off subject here. Essentially, Festing festing Or entered into this 642 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 1: with the mindset that people would need to resolve cognitive dissonance. 643 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: They can't just argue, hey, I know that this, I 644 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: know that my beliefs are crappy, but I enjoy them. No, 645 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: your beliefs were based along the lines that a flood 646 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: would come and you'd be on a UFO right now, 647 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: and you are not. So how do you deal with that? 648 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: He said that they doubled down on their beliefs and 649 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 1: recruitment efforts, but in reality some leave, but the vast 650 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: majority um experience little cognitive dissonance, and so they make 651 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: only minor adjustments to their beliefs. So it ends up 652 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: having like it doesn't have that great an effect. Like 653 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: the failures come and you can always this is the 654 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: key part. You can always attribute that failed prophecy to 655 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: human slip ups. Right. Well, I mean, so let's say 656 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 1: you predicted that the Singularity is going to come in 657 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: a certain year and you get there and nothing happens. Well, 658 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: I mean you could always say, well, hold on, now, 659 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: this doesn't challenge in any way the principle that the 660 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: Singularity is coming and it's coming soon. It's just I 661 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: can explain this. We had a we had a big 662 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: recession in the economy several years back, and that cut 663 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 1: way down on funding for universities and corporations that are 664 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: studying machine learning and artificial intelligence, and so progress just 665 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: got slowed by some external events that aren't you know, 666 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: my predictions basically sound. We just had a few slip 667 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: ups that happened. We didn't realize Pokemon Go would be 668 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: such a success and distract everybody and and decrease productivity. Right, so, 669 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: and yeah, you can. You can make those arguments about 670 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: about singularity. You can make those those arguments about any 671 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 1: kind of social utopian idea. You can make excuses for anything. Yeah, 672 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: I mean the the typical problem with utopian cults is 673 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: it's almost always the same the the utopian leader says 674 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,320 Speaker 1: this is the way we're gonna make life better for 675 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: for you and all the followers, and then there's some 676 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: sort of sex scandal, there's some sort of power disruption, 677 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 1: something goes wrong, and you can always say, well, no, 678 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: they just were the wrong vessel for the message. Well, 679 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: this also works for non technological but secular utopias. Imagine 680 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: the way people think about the implementation of h communist utopia. 681 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: You know, so you create a Marxist government, uh, and 682 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about you know, socialist democracy or whatever. 683 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: But it's so, you know, the real utopian vision, like 684 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna create a perfect workers paradise um and and 685 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: it kind of fails or I mean, I guess it's 686 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: always arguable, but I think it's pretty hard to say, 687 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: look at the Soviet Union or something and say that 688 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: worked great. But you can always argue, well, they did, 689 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: they just didn't do it right. This's not it's not 690 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 1: a problem with the principle. They're just they weren't real 691 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: communists or something. Yeah, they were the they were the 692 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: the fake Christ as opposed to the actual cast. They 693 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: were antichristis yeah, there's nothing wrong with my the principle 694 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 1: behind my my end times prediction. I just I made 695 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: I made errors. The math is wrong. I I translated 696 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: the Golden tablets and correct really, etcetera. So that seems 697 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: to be the basic time timeline, the basic outcome for 698 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: any kind of failed prophecy, be it you know, the 699 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: value of a particular superhero movie or the outcome of 700 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 1: a of an apocalyptic prophecy. Robert, I want to ask 701 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: you about one weird specific example. So we've mentioned the 702 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: idea of singularity that of course hasn't been disproven yet, 703 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: but you know, we we can imagine how it could 704 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: be adjusted if it were disproven. We've talked about Marxist 705 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: supposed utopias, but I wonder if you could look at 706 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 1: the Internet as a failed secular utopia, because if you 707 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 1: go back to the early day, you know, dot com 708 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: bubble type days where people are talking about what's possible 709 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 1: with the Internet, there is a lot of hyperbolic positive 710 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: language where people are talking in incredibly grandiose terms about 711 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: the Internet almost as a type of utopia is going 712 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: to open all these doors and connect people all over 713 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: the world for limitless sharing of ideas and potential, the 714 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: information super highway. We're you know, we're all gonna be 715 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: talking and sharing ideas and it's it's just gonna be great. 716 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: And I don't know, look at the your Facebook feed today. 717 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: Could you argue that the Internet is a failed secular 718 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 1: utopia if you if you look at its goals as 719 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: purely utopia and I think I think very much though, 720 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 1: like I don't think the Internet. Certainly, the Internet has 721 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: has connected us more. It's allowed for a great deal 722 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: of sharing and uh and informational availability. But on the 723 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: other hand, it also allows you to simply, you know, 724 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: flock to people who share your own set of beliefs, 725 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: making it easier to find UH like minded individuals. Both 726 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 1: for both in the positive and in the negative sense 727 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: you've been able it allows us to uh to put 728 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: on a mask UH and lose their identity and and 729 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: lash out with the most horrible you know, in the 730 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: most horrible way and complete strangers. I mean, I don't 731 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: have to tell anybody this. You're all on the internet. 732 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: You know that. You know how it all plays out. 733 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,959 Speaker 1: It's more of just an expression and in various ways 734 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: apple amplification of who we are as opposed to a 735 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,359 Speaker 1: refinement of who we are. And that always the way 736 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: you can look at that as all utopias. Somehow, all 737 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,919 Speaker 1: utopias end up being very human, Like We're still going 738 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 1: to express as human no matter what sort of social 739 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 1: structure you try and strain us through, no matter what 740 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: kind of technological change you strain us through, We're going 741 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: to come out as the same animal. And I think 742 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: that's inherently why there is the appeal of these superhuman forces, 743 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: like either a supernatural religious force god or or you know, 744 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: the gods of any religion coming into set things right 745 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,720 Speaker 1: via some kind of power that transcends what we're capable 746 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 1: of naturally, or a superhuman artificial intelligence, powerful machines that 747 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: are smarter than we are and no better than us 748 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: and can improve us in ways that we don't seem 749 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: to be capable of our natural experimentation with social behavior. Yeah, 750 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: So enter the AI, Enter Christ, enter the Bodhisatva of 751 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: the future. Whatever it takes for something from the outside 752 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: to step in and shake us into the right form. 753 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,920 Speaker 1: All right, So there you have it, the rapture, the singularity, uh, 754 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: trans humanism. We threw out a lot of ideas here 755 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: and moved them around on the board, had some fun 756 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: with them, hopefully, had some some thoughtful conversation about it. 757 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 1: And I'm sure a lot of you have some feedback 758 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: as well, your own thoughts on these topics. And I 759 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: do want to ask everyone out there if there was 760 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: some sort of a Christian rapture, what if there was 761 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: a way to create a rapture proof suit. Oh wow, 762 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: superhuman technology versus superhuman uh, supernatural power. Yeah, I mean 763 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,280 Speaker 1: the the AI Antichrist that I was going on about earlier. 764 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: Perhaps they might come up with some sort of shielding 765 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: to try and prevent you know, souls from being uh 766 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: sucked up into the into the into the outer void. 767 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, perhaps someone might want to, 768 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 1: you know, even a faithful individual might say, actually I 769 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 1: need to stay behind, I want to document, or maybe 770 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: I I love the some people in my life too 771 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 1: much you are not believers, or I just want to, 772 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, make sure I get to work on time 773 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: the next day. I better wear a rapture proof suit 774 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,880 Speaker 1: that will contain my myself and keep mine you know, 775 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,919 Speaker 1: almost like wearing a like weighted boots to keep from 776 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 1: just rising above the ground. Robert, you never cease to 777 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: amaze me. Well, thank you, Joe, I can try, uh 778 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: so anyway, rapture proof suits. What do you think about that? 779 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: You can find us at the stuff to Blow your 780 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. You can reach out to us on 781 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter a few other social media accounts as well. 782 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: You'll find links to those at stuff to Blow your 783 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: Mind dot com, and if you want to email us, 784 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: as always, you can write to us at blow the 785 00:44:50,800 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 1: Mind at how stuff works dot com for more on 786 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,760 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 787 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 1: works dot com the f