Speaker 1: Guess what will what's that mango? So I was watching
Speaker 1: this old BBC clip online of an electronic lollipop. What
Speaker 1: is that? So it's not actually a candy. The lollipop
Speaker 1: is still being developed in labs. But it's this gentle
Speaker 1: clamp that slides metal plates over the top and bottomy tongue.
Speaker 1: I don't think it helps to call this clamp gentle.
Speaker 1: That still doesn't sound that appealing. Well, here's what's cool
Speaker 1: about it. So it sends currents through your tongue and
Speaker 1: adjust the temperature on those plates, and the electronic lollipop
Speaker 1: can actually trick your tongue into thinking it's tasting a
Speaker 1: wide variety of flavors, like a lemony sour taste is
Speaker 1: the easiest to pull off, and scientists can do reasonable
Speaker 1: approximations of other flavors. But the application of all this
Speaker 1: is really cool. Like imagine you're watching Iron Chef and
Speaker 1: Bobby Flay is on there and he's just made the
Speaker 1: most amazing eggplant spaghetti taco in the world, and you
Speaker 1: can't figure out for the life of you what an
Speaker 1: eggplant plus spaghetti and a taco shell should taste like,
Speaker 1: And so you just take a lick of your lollipop
Speaker 1: and suddenly you get a sense of that flavor.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of weird, but it is pretty cool.
Speaker 3: Reminds me a little bit of smell vision, except for
Speaker 3: your taste bud exactly. And you can see how this
Speaker 3: might be used in online grocery shopping in the future
Speaker 3: or checking out new recipes. It's totally fascinating. But what
Speaker 3: I found most interesting in all of this are the limitations.
Speaker 3: Because these currents are only playing with your tongue, they
Speaker 3: can only create a set of basic flavors. But when
Speaker 3: the scientists added technology that incorporates your nose, suddenly the
Speaker 3: range of flavors expanded dramatically, and that got me thinking
Speaker 3: what other tricks can we play on our tongue and
Speaker 3: how much a flavor is really just something constructed in
Speaker 3: our brain.
Speaker 2: So that's what this episode is all about.
Speaker 3: Hey, their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Speaker 3: Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good
Speaker 3: friend mangesh Hot Ticketer, and today I'm here to address
Speaker 3: a big problem in the English language.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure we were talking about starting sentences with
Speaker 1: because because my second grade English teacher had the same
Speaker 1: argument with me.
Speaker 3: Wait, this was second grade. You got in trouble in
Speaker 3: second grade for starting sentences.
Speaker 1: Was because yeah, actually it was more of a thing
Speaker 1: that she said we shouldn't do. And then I started
Speaker 1: every sentence in a story with a word because it
Speaker 1: was not a good strategy for going to recess that.
Speaker 3: All right, Well, at some point we'll do a whole
Speaker 3: episode on grammar, so you can save your SOB stories
Speaker 3: for then. But today I'm talking about how English speakers
Speaker 3: use the words taste and flavor interchangeably, as though they
Speaker 3: mean the same thing.
Speaker 1: Wait, they don't mean the same thing.
Speaker 3: I know, it's pretty crazy. So I've been reading this
Speaker 3: new book called Flavor. It's by Bob Holmes, and it's
Speaker 3: really good. As Holmes explains, taste is just one component
Speaker 3: of flavor, and he writes, the best way to think
Speaker 3: about flavor is that it's the sum of all the
Speaker 3: sensations we get when we have food in the mouth.
Speaker 3: So think about the weight of the bowl, the color
Speaker 3: of the plate, the crunch of the potato chip. Even
Speaker 3: the choice of background music can have a direct effect
Speaker 3: on how we perceive flavor.
Speaker 1: It's funny because when I think of flavor, it seems
Speaker 1: like such a specific thing, like popcorn flavor, jelly beans,
Speaker 1: that's a flavor.
Speaker 3: I think there might be some people who disagree with
Speaker 3: you on this, but.
Speaker 1: I know what you're saying is true. Like taste and
Speaker 1: smell and touch and sound, they all play a role
Speaker 1: in how much we appreciate food. I guess I've just
Speaker 1: been using the wrong vocabulary.
Speaker 3: All right. Well, I'm not here to flavor Shandy, but
Speaker 3: we do have Bob Holmes on the show today, which
Speaker 3: is super exciting, and we'll be talking to him about
Speaker 3: flavor and some of the fascinating studies and facts he
Speaker 3: covered in his book. Speaking of which, do you have
Speaker 3: a terrible quiz lined up for us today? Oh?
Speaker 1: Of course I do. Sticking with the flavors theme, we're
Speaker 1: playing real vintage recipe or gourmet cat food flavor. It's
Speaker 1: a little harder than you think.
Speaker 3: Awesome, all right, all right, Well, let's kick this off
Speaker 3: by talking about taste. Even if it's not the same
Speaker 3: thing as flavor, it's obviously an important thing, definitely so.
Speaker 1: In the English speaking world, psychologists have traditionally acknowledged four
Speaker 1: different tastes. They're sweet, sour, salty, and bitter, and humans
Speaker 1: have different receptors for each of these. And then more recently,
Speaker 1: we've added a fifth taste, umami, which kind of just
Speaker 1: sounds made up, so we need to talk about that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it did feel like a few years ago people
Speaker 3: started talking about umami and it was like breaking news,
Speaker 3: like did you hear about this umami flavor? And actually,
Speaker 3: to be honest, I got confused. I was mixing it
Speaker 3: up with the word unagi, which is the Japanese word
Speaker 3: for fresh water eel, so I was trying to understand
Speaker 3: why eel got to be a flavor of its own.
Speaker 3: I mean, don't get me wrong, I love eel, but
Speaker 3: it was still a little confusing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was confusing to me because I thought we
Speaker 1: were getting a brand new flavor, like you know that
Speaker 1: apartment you have, did you know it's been hiding a
Speaker 1: secret room all this time? Or like you're familiar with
Speaker 1: the rainbow, guess what we're adding a new color exactly,
Speaker 1: And instead it was like, you know, parmesan cheese or
Speaker 1: soy sauce, those are umami. You just didn't have a
Speaker 1: word for it, right, But umami is definitely distinct. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a Japanese word meaning delicious flavor and linguists usually
Speaker 1: translated as savory or maybe meaty, and his Homes explains
Speaker 1: there are a few reasons why it takes a while
Speaker 1: to rap your head around what umami is. First, is that,
Speaker 1: unlike other tastes, you don't really experience umami as this
Speaker 1: isolated thing. Think about it. You can bite into a
Speaker 1: strawberry and immediately experience that as sweet, or lick a
Speaker 1: French fry and no, that's kind of a salty taste.
Speaker 3: I think we've talked about this. You've got to stop
Speaker 3: licking your French fries. That's a little weird.
Speaker 1: They're just so good though. But anyway, you can experience
Speaker 1: those tastes in a pretty pure and direct form. With umami,
Speaker 1: it's more in combination with other things. Taste researcher Paul
Speaker 1: Breslin also points out that the receptors for umami have
Speaker 1: a pretty low maximum intensity compared to other tastes, which
Speaker 1: prevents us from being able to note something as being
Speaker 1: very umami, unlike how we might say something's very sweet
Speaker 1: or very salty.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's a much stronger cultural element than I realized.
Speaker 3: I mean, I know the stereotypes of different cultures being
Speaker 3: able to handle different levels of spice or things like that,
Speaker 3: but I really didn't think about how that could be
Speaker 3: applied to something like umami. But it turns out many
Speaker 3: people in Asian countries have no problem identifying things as umami,
Speaker 3: but they have the same ease that American children have
Speaker 3: identifying things as sweet. It's really interesting how taste has
Speaker 3: developed differently in different places around the world.
Speaker 1: Well, let's back up for a minute and talk about
Speaker 1: how these tastes would have developed from an evolutionary perspective.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one thing for us to identify or talk
Speaker 3: about these tastes when we cook at home or eat
Speaker 3: at restaurants now, but for our ancestors, these tastes were
Speaker 3: key to survival. So think about how a sweet taste
Speaker 3: would have let someone know that they were getting sugars,
Speaker 3: which are an important way to get calories for energy,
Speaker 3: or tasting salt would be an indication of electrolytes, and
Speaker 3: a mommy would have indicated the presence of proteins. Now,
Speaker 3: on the negative side, our ancestors learned from bitter taste
Speaker 3: that something might be toxic, or from sourness that a
Speaker 3: fruit might have gone bad or just not be good
Speaker 3: to eat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not hard to see how we'd be hardwired
Speaker 1: to like sweet, salty, and a mommy. And it's equally
Speaker 1: fascinating to see how other animals have evolved differently because
Speaker 1: of their different nutritional needs. Like there was a cat study.
Speaker 1: It's oh great, it's back. Well, a study was done
Speaker 1: that showed cats, because their carnivores are unable to really
Speaker 1: identify sweetness and it has no appeal for them. And pandas,
Speaker 1: who are some serious bamboo eaters, don't really need to
Speaker 1: identify umami, so they've lost the ability to taste it well.
Speaker 3: And even more extreme than that, vampire bat's love of
Speaker 3: blood has caused them to lose the ability to taste
Speaker 3: umami sweet and bitter. I'm actually curious why we don't
Speaker 3: do a bad study like we do cat studies. Have
Speaker 3: I mentioned I don't like cats. I think you've mentioned
Speaker 3: that a few times, all right, I just wanted to
Speaker 3: make sure. So back to how we've evolved, there's another
Speaker 3: thing about taste that I think is just crazy interesting.
Speaker 3: So just as we're discussing how flavor is much more
Speaker 3: than just taste. Taste also happens to be more complex
Speaker 3: than we thought. Did you know that there are taste
Speaker 3: receptors in multiple places around our body, not just our mouth?
Speaker 1: Sure, it's crazy, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Wait, so that means you do know about this. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna quiz you. So, do we have taste receptors in
Speaker 3: our lungs?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: What about our guts?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 3: What about it our brain? Yes? What about our forte?
Speaker 1: Definitely no, we don't.
Speaker 3: We do not have taste receptors in our forehead. You
Speaker 3: slum dog millionaireed me you should know about it. There's
Speaker 3: no cheating on our quizzes. So this isn't exactly well
Speaker 3: understood yet, but it's really fascinating. The ones in the gut,
Speaker 3: for example, detective Mommy and sweet and let our brains
Speaker 3: know that some yummy and nutritious food has arrived, and
Speaker 3: if they taste something bitter, they let us know there
Speaker 3: may be a problem and trigger a response of some kind.
Speaker 3: So you can get the sense for why they're helpful.
Speaker 3: But why do you think we need taste receptors in
Speaker 3: our respiratory system?
Speaker 1: So it's one way of letting our bodies know if
Speaker 1: bacteria has arrived because bacteria have a communication chemical with
Speaker 1: a bitter taste, and when the receptor is in our
Speaker 1: respiratory system, notice this, they help our bodies mount response.
Speaker 1: There's even some thinking among scientists that these bitter receptors
Speaker 1: may have existed in other areas of our body, first
Speaker 1: as a way of detecting infection and then moving to
Speaker 1: our mouths.
Speaker 3: Yes, Holmes explains. If this is the case, we have
Speaker 3: disease to thank for the flavor of coffee, beer, and broccoli.
Speaker 1: It's weird, right, all right. So I know in a
Speaker 1: few minutes we're going to play a quiz, but before
Speaker 1: we do that, I think we should find out whether
Speaker 1: we're super tasters.
Speaker 3: Super tasters Well.
Speaker 1: It's not as exciting as it sounds, because while it
Speaker 1: does mean someone has a more intense sense of taste,
Speaker 1: supertasters tend to be much more bland eaters because most
Speaker 1: tastes tend to be that much more extreme for them.
Speaker 3: Well, given the fact that the last time we ate
Speaker 3: at the Chinese place downstairs, it looked to me like
Speaker 3: you just ordered a plate of hot peppers, So I'm
Speaker 3: guessing you're not a super taster.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a joke in our family that our
Speaker 1: dad served as so much spicy food that we burned
Speaker 1: off our taste buds.
Speaker 3: I believe that.
Speaker 1: Let me show you how we test for this using
Speaker 1: this filter paper. Each strip has a small amount of
Speaker 1: a bitter compound on them. It's called prople thigh ORUSIL
Speaker 1: or PROP. So we're going to put these on our
Speaker 1: tongues and find out which of these three categories of
Speaker 1: tasters we fall in. Non tasters will taste nothing, tasters
Speaker 1: will notice the bitter taste but it's not a huge deal,
Speaker 1: and super taste will have this super strong response to it.
Speaker 3: All right, I like this. We should also get some
Speaker 3: other members of the PTG team in here.
Speaker 1: What do you say?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Definitely?
Speaker 3: All right, so let's give this a shot. So we've
Speaker 3: got two of our team members joining us. We've got
Speaker 3: Noel Brown, you may know from stuff they don't want
Speaker 3: you to know, also a supervising producer on the show,
Speaker 3: and Jerry Roland, our executive producer. Here, guys, you guys
Speaker 3: ready to give this a shot? Am I ever?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: All right, So we've all got these strips and on
Speaker 3: the count of three, we're going to put them on
Speaker 3: our tongues. We're going to see what happens now. As
Speaker 3: a reminder, if you taste nothing, which may be the case,
Speaker 3: you're a non taster. If you taste a little bit
Speaker 3: of bitter, just some bitter, then you're a taster. And
Speaker 3: if it tastes extremely better, then you are a super taster.
Speaker 3: So ready, all right on the count of three, one, two, three.
Speaker 3: I don't know it sides. You may have to flip
Speaker 3: it out. Oh wait, you get something I got? I
Speaker 3: got a hint of bitter. Uh huh. Mine is totally bitter.
Speaker 3: It's like great fruit bitter. Oh nice, I have a
Speaker 3: real paper taste, but I mean something completely different. We
Speaker 3: can't talk about it. Might be fooling myself about this.
Speaker 3: Oh Jerry, she's running away.
Speaker 1: She's always had great.
Speaker 3: Is blown? I hate grapefruit, super taster. Okay, spicy food, Jerry,
Speaker 3: I love spicy food. But you just like the torture.
Speaker 3: I guess I'm not sure what's happening. Wow, oh man,
Speaker 3: that's so disappointing. You've given us a lot to think
Speaker 3: about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I'm so cheated. Like not only
Speaker 1: can I not see those like three D magic pictures,
Speaker 1: but also I can't taste these people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the worse. Okay, that's a bummer. I
Speaker 3: was getting. I think I was getting a slight taste
Speaker 3: of bitter. Okay, here we go. Well, while we're having
Speaker 3: so much fun, when you say we play a little quiz,
Speaker 3: sounds good.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 3: So who do we have on the line today, Mango.
Speaker 1: We've got Sarah Fiddler, who's got one of the list
Speaker 1: jobs in the world. She's a flavor guru at one
Speaker 1: of my favorite ice cream companies, Ben and Jerry's.
Speaker 3: We are so excited to have you on. Welcome to
Speaker 3: part time Genia.
Speaker 1: Sarah, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: So I'm really curious how you got this job. I mean,
Speaker 3: what sort of training and schooling do you have to
Speaker 3: have to become a Ben and Jerry's flavor guru.
Speaker 5: Well, personally, I have a degree in food science from
Speaker 5: the University of Vermont and a degree in baking and
Speaker 5: pastry from the Culinary Institute of America. There are a
Speaker 5: group of us flavor gurus here, and everybody's got kind
Speaker 5: of a mixed background, from chefs to food scientists, all
Speaker 5: comes from different backgrounds.
Speaker 3: It's very cool, that's awesome. And how are flavors decided upon? Like,
Speaker 3: how do you guys decide you have so many fun
Speaker 3: and creative and awesome flavors, how do you guys come
Speaker 3: up with these?
Speaker 5: Well, we start out by being very creative and kind
Speaker 5: of playing around in our test kitchens, and then we
Speaker 5: meet with our marketing team, our brand management team, sometimes
Speaker 5: our social mission team and figure out which of our
Speaker 5: crazy flavors makes the most sense to launch for the
Speaker 5: next season.
Speaker 1: And so, how many flavors are you typically playing with?
Speaker 5: It could be arranged anywhere from maybe three to ten
Speaker 5: at a time.
Speaker 1: That's pretty crazy. I heard that the Ben and Jerry's
Speaker 1: staff takes a field trip every year to research new flavors.
Speaker 1: Is that true?
Speaker 5: Yeah. We go on what we call trend tracks. Pick
Speaker 5: a city or area that seems to be filled with
Speaker 5: really up and coming food places, sometimes cocktail places, farms,
Speaker 5: and go as a group and eat as much as
Speaker 5: we possibly can, and then come back and make ice
Speaker 5: cream inspired by what we ate.
Speaker 1: Cool, But where are some of the fun places you've
Speaker 1: trekked to?
Speaker 5: Well, I'm relatively new to the company, so I have
Speaker 5: yet to go on a track, but I've heard that
Speaker 5: they've gone to San Francisco, Portland's I believe there was
Speaker 5: a trip to Japan before I started.
Speaker 1: Very cool.
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm so jealous of this job. That sounds pretty great.
Speaker 3: Now we also know about the flavor graveyard at Ben
Speaker 3: and Jerry. So are there are there ceremonies when flavors
Speaker 3: are buried there? And how does this work? How do
Speaker 3: you pay your respects?
Speaker 5: I think for some of the flavors that were a
Speaker 5: little bit more loved, they do ceremonies, and sometimes it's
Speaker 5: more of a quiet affair.
Speaker 3: We won't get into that then. So that's pretty great.
Speaker 3: All right, So manga, what game are we playing today
Speaker 3: with Sarah?
Speaker 1: It's called do Me a Flavor? Mostly because I just
Speaker 1: wanted to hear you say do me a flavor all things.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate that. That's a pretty terrible title of
Speaker 3: how do we play?
Speaker 1: Basically, we're giving Sarah three popular flavors from an iconic
Speaker 1: food or drink brand, and she just has to tell
Speaker 1: us what we're talking about.
Speaker 3: Okay, that sounds fun. All right, Sarah, are you ready
Speaker 3: to play?
Speaker 5: I'm ready?
Speaker 3: Okay. Question number one? This chip comes in cool Ranch,
Speaker 3: Nacho cheese, and heat Wave flavors, So do me a
Speaker 3: flavor and tell me what product we're talking about. Real yepah,
Speaker 3: you got it for one, question number two. The most
Speaker 3: popular flavors of this candy include very cherry and buttered popcorn,
Speaker 3: though the blueberry flavor was particularly popular in the nineteen
Speaker 3: eighties when it was created for Ronald Reagan. Do me
Speaker 3: a flavor, Manger, are you gonna make me say?
Speaker 1: Do me a flavor?
Speaker 3: Do me a flavor and tell me what brand we're.
Speaker 1: Talking about jelly Belly.
Speaker 3: You got it two for two for two question number three.
Speaker 3: This sports drink originally came in lemon, lime, and orange flavors.
Speaker 3: It has since expanded to include rainberry, glacier freeze, and
Speaker 3: cool blue. Do me a flavor and tell me what
Speaker 3: beverage I'm talking about? Betray Yes, all right, she's three
Speaker 3: for three. Let's see if she can get the last
Speaker 3: two Question number four. While this O shaped breakfast cereal
Speaker 3: does come in flavors like fruity and frosted, the most
Speaker 3: popular varieties are still original and honeynut. Do me a
Speaker 3: flavor and tell me what breakfast cereal I'm talking about? Curios. Okay,
Speaker 3: we've saved the hardest for last. Good luck on this one. Okay,
Speaker 3: question number five. This iconic ice cream brand has the
Speaker 3: best punny flavors, including Fish Food, American Dream, and the
Speaker 3: Tonight Dough. Do me a flavor and tell me what
Speaker 3: really wonderful ice cream company we're talking about, Ben and Jerry.
Speaker 3: All Right, that would have been kind of embarrassing if
Speaker 3: she'd missed out.
Speaker 1: Well, Sarah when an astounding five for five, which wins
Speaker 1: her the grand prize, A hundred note from us to
Speaker 1: her mom or boss, singing her praises.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: So congratulations Sarah, and thank you so much for flaving.
Speaker 3: That's awesome. Congratulations Sarah, Thank you both. Please tell all
Speaker 3: the people at Ben and Jerry's we say thank you
Speaker 3: for making wonderful ice or even keep up the great work.
Speaker 3: I will.
Speaker 1: Guess what will?
Speaker 3: What's that mango?
Speaker 1: I'm coming to terms with the fact that I'm not
Speaker 1: a super taste all right.
Speaker 3: Well, lucky for you, we've been talking about the fact
Speaker 3: that flavor is so much more than just.
Speaker 1: Taste, and then we just talked about taste. But I
Speaker 1: think it's time we backed that statement off and talk
Speaker 1: about another key component of flavor, and that's smell, all.
Speaker 3: Right, talk to me about smell.
Speaker 1: Well, if you think taste is a complicated thing, it's
Speaker 1: nothing compared to the complexity of smell. Think about the
Speaker 1: millions upon millions of smells in the world and how
Speaker 1: our noses have to make sense of them and help
Speaker 1: us identify what things are. In fact, as Holmes points out,
Speaker 1: the old faction researcher Joel Mainland estimates that they're about
Speaker 1: twenty seven billion smelly molecules in the world.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: And while that doesn't mean they're about twenty seven billion
Speaker 1: smells because some might be identical, that still this incredible number.
Speaker 3: Well, the other thing Holmes explains that I find so interesting,
Speaker 3: and this goes back to your electric lollipop example, but
Speaker 3: that's how different taste than smell are. So our sense
Speaker 3: of taste is pretty easy to break down. We can
Speaker 3: enjoy a dish of sweet and sour pork and understand
Speaker 3: that it's sweet and sour, or have some ketch up
Speaker 3: and know that it's sweet, sour, salty and umami. And
Speaker 3: maybe we're not thinking about those things actively, but those
Speaker 3: are all there and we can identify them. But smell
Speaker 3: is different because you really can't break it down. Instead,
Speaker 3: our brains take all the information from the smelly molecules
Speaker 3: and create a single perception of smell. As Holmes writes,
Speaker 3: if you combine ethyl isobutorate, which is a fruity odor,
Speaker 3: ethyl maltol, it's just caramel like an allyl alpha ionine,
Speaker 3: which is violet like in the proper proportions. For example,
Speaker 3: what you smell is not caramel coated fruit on a
Speaker 3: bed of violets, but pineapple.
Speaker 1: And how much more complicated by the fact that in
Speaker 1: English we really don't have the language to describe smells
Speaker 1: in any significant way other than seeing what they smell like.
Speaker 1: So we might say something smells fishy or like grass
Speaker 1: or whatever. But this isn't the case everywhere, and especially
Speaker 1: in places that depend much more on those smells for survival,
Speaker 1: such as the remaining hunter gatherer tribes. Take the Jihai
Speaker 1: tribe of Thailand. A research team set up a smell
Speaker 1: test between a group of Jehai men and a group
Speaker 1: of men from Texas, and when the Jahai men were
Speaker 1: presented with certain smells, they had just an easy time
Speaker 1: communicating what they smelled with very descriptive words, as they
Speaker 1: did in describing colors, and the Texans, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: were of course able to describe colors, but they struggled
Speaker 1: when asked to describe smells.
Speaker 3: When there's one more reason why smell is just so
Speaker 3: difficult for us to understand and talk about.
Speaker 1: What's not?
Speaker 3: All right? So humans have around four hundred odor receptors,
Speaker 3: but the part that makes things complicated is that only
Speaker 3: about half of those receptors work in pretty much everyone.
Speaker 3: But then of the other half, there's this wide range
Speaker 3: of which ones work in some piece and not in others.
Speaker 3: So that leads to an incredibly wide range of smells
Speaker 3: that humans are capable of processing. In fact, for the
Speaker 3: most part, no two people have the same sense of smell,
Speaker 3: which is pretty crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but needless to say, our sense of smell makes
Speaker 1: a huge contribution to the flavors we process.
Speaker 3: And there's another biggie to add to taste and smell,
Speaker 3: and that's the sense of touch. Think about the burn
Speaker 3: of a chili pepper, or the chili feeling in your
Speaker 3: mouth when you're chewing on a minty piece of gum,
Speaker 3: or fizz in a carbonated drink. Oh man, that first
Speaker 3: sip of a coke, how good is this first sip
Speaker 3: of a coke?
Speaker 1: So good? I think I'll have one right now.
Speaker 3: All right to Atlanta. So it's interesting how little is
Speaker 3: really understood about this component of flavor, at least how
Speaker 3: few studies have been done on it. But we do
Speaker 3: know that spicy hot, for example, is not a taste.
Speaker 3: It's something you feel. And then we have specific receptors
Speaker 3: that cause the heat sensation when we eat spicy things.
Speaker 1: Speaking of spicy hot, do you know how the Scoville units,
Speaker 1: which measure the heat of chili peppers got its start?
Speaker 3: How's that?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 1: Apparently it goes back to this pharmacist and researcher, Wilbur Scoville.
Speaker 1: Scoville came up with the scale back in nineteen twelve,
Speaker 1: and it was a pretty smart way of doing it.
Speaker 1: You figured out that you could create a scale based
Speaker 1: on the amount of dilution required before the burn of
Speaker 1: a chili could no longer be felt, so super hot
Speaker 1: pepper would take much more dilution.
Speaker 3: Oh, that is pretty smart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And now it's easier for scientists to just measure
Speaker 1: the amount of capsaicin, which is the main ingredient that
Speaker 1: makes a chili hot, and then just convert those into
Speaker 1: Scoville units.
Speaker 3: It's pretty wild how hot some peppers can be. Take jalapenos,
Speaker 3: for example, which we think of is pretty hot. They
Speaker 3: come in about five thousand Scovill units. Cayennes are at
Speaker 3: about forty thousand. The habban nio comes in at over
Speaker 3: one hundred thousand, maybe even up to three hundred thousand.
Speaker 3: But even the hobbin niro doesn't hold a candle to
Speaker 3: the Carolina Reaper.
Speaker 1: And how many Scoville units does that one have?
Speaker 3: Two point two million. It's unbelievable, it's crazy. That's basically
Speaker 3: like police eat pepper spray. And there's a new contender
Speaker 3: out there. It's called Dragon's Breath, which is a tiny
Speaker 3: pepper that can possibly kill.
Speaker 1: You, but it sounds so cute. So we have Noel
Speaker 1: Brown here to test this out. Why would you even
Speaker 1: make a pepper that hot.
Speaker 3: Well, it's so unbelievably hot that can actually numb your
Speaker 3: skin to touch, and that makes it useful as an
Speaker 3: anesthetic in areas without medical supplies. But let's leave the
Speaker 3: hottest of the hot peppers aside for a minute. It's
Speaker 3: interesting that we humans enjoy inflicting this burning pain on ourselves,
Speaker 3: and we don't know exactly why this is. I mean,
Speaker 3: I know, we know about the endorphin release that happens
Speaker 3: when we eat spicy foods, but that still doesn't answer
Speaker 3: the question of why that happened.
Speaker 1: You know, first we feast, does that chili head enthusiast show.
Speaker 1: And I was reading an interview that said it's much
Speaker 1: easier to get people to drop their inhibitions when they
Speaker 1: eat a chili pepper because they're like sweating and it's
Speaker 1: like they've just exercised. So instead of those awkward questions
Speaker 1: you go through in the beginning of an interview, people
Speaker 1: just skip past that by eating chilis Wow. Anyway. We
Speaker 1: know humans like heat, but researchers have yet identify another
Speaker 1: mammal that seeks the heat of chili peppers. I mean,
Speaker 1: birds eat plenty of them, but they don't actually have
Speaker 1: the receptors that would feel the heat of cupsason, so
Speaker 1: there's no sensation at all for them even in eating
Speaker 1: a super hot pepper. I wonder if birds enjoy the
Speaker 1: first sip of a coke, oh man.
Speaker 3: To it while we savor our beverages. Why don't we
Speaker 3: take a break for a quiz. Our guest today has
Speaker 3: been a science writer and correspondent for New Scientist magazine
Speaker 3: for over twenty years, and as the author of Flavor,
Speaker 3: the brilliant book we've been talking about in this episode,
Speaker 3: and for those who listen to our episode on How
Speaker 3: Clean We Should Be, you know, I'm not surprised that
Speaker 3: a New Scientist writer would produce such a great book.
Speaker 3: Bob Holmes, Welcome to Part Time Genius.
Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Bob. In Flavor, you mentioned that we can pretty much
Speaker 3: do away with the idea that we have previously had
Speaker 3: about taste maps, where different parts of our tongues helped
Speaker 3: us experience different taste. So our taste maps really not
Speaker 3: a thing we should think about anymore.
Speaker 4: They really aren't, and it's pretty easy to demonstrate that.
Speaker 4: All you have to do is take a cute tip
Speaker 4: and dip it in salt water and rush it around
Speaker 4: your tongue. You know, the taste map says that you
Speaker 4: say it's salty. I think it's right at the tip
Speaker 4: of your tongue, and you'll find that you can taste
Speaker 4: the salt anywhere.
Speaker 3: Huh. So how did this come about?
Speaker 4: I'm not sure. It turns out there are slight differences
Speaker 4: in different parts of the tongue, and you've got a
Speaker 4: few more bitter taste bud's right at the back and
Speaker 4: a few more sweet at the front, and things like that,
Speaker 4: but it's not enough to make much of a difference
Speaker 4: at all.
Speaker 1: You also write the possibility of a sixth taste or
Speaker 1: even more than that, and could you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about that?
Speaker 4: Sure, Yeah, I mean it's almost certainly at least it
Speaker 4: tastes and maybe quite a few more. You know, we
Speaker 4: all know about sweet, salty, sour, bitter, and most of
Speaker 4: us know about umami, which is that fifth taste that's
Speaker 4: sort of safe retaste, but almost certain. I think the
Speaker 4: evidence is really good now that there is in fact
Speaker 4: the taste for fat, or more specifically, for the fatty
Speaker 4: acid breakdown products of fat. These are actually the nasties.
Speaker 4: The researcher who demonstrated this is the easiest way to
Speaker 4: think about what they taste like is to imagine old
Speaker 4: rancid French fry oil. It's gone off, and that's what
Speaker 4: fatty acids taste like. Yeah, I definitely know that it's
Speaker 4: almost certainly one of those warning tastes to keep us
Speaker 4: away from rancid.
Speaker 1: Fats, and is there anything good that can be done
Speaker 1: with it?
Speaker 4: A little bit of these nasty, fatty acids are part
Speaker 4: of what makes aged cheese interesting, huh So yeah, and
Speaker 4: probably also a little bit in aged meat and things
Speaker 4: like that. Yeah, So in very small quantities, you know,
Speaker 4: just like putting a little bit of cat in persum
Speaker 4: actually is a good thing. You know, these nasties in
Speaker 4: our food probably do add interest if there's little enough
Speaker 4: of them.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: One of the other things that you explained that I
Speaker 3: thought was super interesting is that humans get a bad
Speaker 3: wrap for having an inferior sense of smell. So is
Speaker 3: this really a myth?
Speaker 4: We have fewer odor receptors in our nose than it's
Speaker 4: something like a dog does, so they probably are better
Speaker 4: than us, but not nearly as much better than us
Speaker 4: as we think. When people have looked, they found that
Speaker 4: humans are actually pretty good at smelling stuff. A blindfolded
Speaker 4: person can follow on a chocolate trail across a lawn
Speaker 4: on their hands and he's sniffing to find where the
Speaker 4: chocolate was d So, you know, most of the reason
Speaker 4: that we think we're so bad at smell is that
Speaker 4: our noses are way up in the air and all
Speaker 4: the smells are down there on the ground. So if
Speaker 4: we were to, if we were to explore our worlds
Speaker 4: just like our dogs do, we'd find there were stuff
Speaker 4: there we could smell. People can go into a into
Speaker 4: a onto a bookshelf and pick out which book someone
Speaker 4: has just handled by the smell alone.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: And at the other place, we're really good at smell. Actually,
Speaker 4: it's in flavor. The shape of our heads mean that
Speaker 4: means the flavors foods that are inside our mouths have
Speaker 4: very quick access to the olfactory part of the nose,
Speaker 4: and so we're probably way better than our dogs are
Speaker 4: at appreciating flavor.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. That's really interesting.
Speaker 1: That's so crazy. I mean, I feel like that totally
Speaker 1: changes the truffle game, like the truffle hunting game, Like
Speaker 1: you don't need a pig if you're on all four four.
Speaker 4: That's probably right, right, that some people don't smell the
Speaker 4: key compound and truffles.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd probably do it for the right bar of chocolate. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: all right. Well, being an expert on flavor, we couldn't
Speaker 3: let you go without putting you to the test on
Speaker 3: an ultimate flavor quiz. So, mango, what what game do
Speaker 3: we have? What game do we have Bob playing today?
Speaker 1: We're playing a game called vintage recipe or a gourmet
Speaker 1: cat food flavor.
Speaker 3: That's right, So we'll be tossing you a delicious sounding item.
Speaker 3: Delicious is in air quotes, which doesn't work quite as
Speaker 3: well on podcasts. But you have to tell us if
Speaker 3: it's a vintage recipe we found online or a gourmet
Speaker 3: cat food flavor. So you ready to get started?
Speaker 4: Ready?
Speaker 1: All right?
Speaker 3: So the first one is ham and bananas, hollandais ham
Speaker 3: and bananas Holland days? Is this a vintage recipe we
Speaker 3: found online or a gourmet cat food flavor.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go vintage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you would be right.
Speaker 1: It's a great way to make use of your leftover
Speaker 1: bananas and ham apparently.
Speaker 3: All right, Okay. Number two Sea Bess in Seabas consumme.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go cat slicks for that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, it's from Tiki Cats Hawaiian queen Emma
Speaker 1: Luau line.
Speaker 3: Of course, all right. Question number three liver sausage, pineapple.
Speaker 4: I can't imagine the cat eating pineapples. I'm gonna go
Speaker 4: with vintage recipe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, three for three. I really probably would have guessed
Speaker 3: cat food on that though, just because the word liver
Speaker 3: would have thrown me off. I think, all right, number
Speaker 3: four lime cheese salad is he correct?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, it's a It was a recipe from
Speaker 1: Jello and and it's a Yello bed with a seafood
Speaker 1: salad plopped on top.
Speaker 4: I think I've had that Midwestern church suppers.
Speaker 3: All right, we've got two left. He's four for four
Speaker 3: so far. Here we go. Ocean fish, tuna and cheese sauce.
Speaker 4: That sounds like it would appeal to a cat.
Speaker 1: All right, it is a gourmet coffee. I can't believe
Speaker 1: there's cheese sauce in Yeah, it's from the Tasty Treasures line.
Speaker 3: Right, some fancy cat food. All right, let's see if
Speaker 3: you can get six for six spam and limas spam
Speaker 3: and Lima's.
Speaker 4: No recipes.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it was a promotional recipe from Hormel, and
Speaker 1: it had a Spanish gravy and frozen lime of beans.
Speaker 3: That is incredible, So Bob, how has Bob done?
Speaker 1: He ran the table. He did won an incredible six
Speaker 1: for six, which wins him Today's grand prize, which is
Speaker 1: our endless admiration.
Speaker 3: Wow, congratulations, Bob.
Speaker 4: That is huge, Thank you kindly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Bob, thanks so much for writing a terrific
Speaker 3: book and for joining us today on Part Time Genius.
Speaker 3: All right, guess what I've got my pocket here? Mango?
Speaker 1: Oh, that sounds so creepy.
Speaker 3: Sorry, I should have I probably should have phrased that
Speaker 3: a little differently. But guess what I have in my
Speaker 3: pocket here? That rhymes with schmop blocks.
Speaker 1: That sounds even creepier. But you've got pop rocks, right.
Speaker 3: I know we've talked about taste, smell, and touch and
Speaker 3: that those are considered the flavor trinity, but we can't
Speaker 3: leave out sound or other multisensory effects on how we
Speaker 3: experience flavor.
Speaker 1: Well, you're gonna crack open those bad boys or not?
Speaker 3: All right, let's do it. They are so good. Pop
Speaker 3: Rocks reminded me of that, you know, that part in
Speaker 3: the Eddie Hazard routine where he's talking about chiropractors and
Speaker 3: how they live for the noise, and that chiropracting or
Speaker 3: what do you call.
Speaker 1: It, chiropractice cracking bones.
Speaker 3: Would be nothing if they didn't hear the sound. They're
Speaker 3: just like I live for the noise, I crack your bones.
Speaker 3: So anyway, all right, you remember how our friend and
Speaker 3: former Mental Flaws editor, Ah, they pop rocks are still
Speaker 3: just popular, like crazyhood. I don't think I've had one
Speaker 3: of these since I was ten. I need more. Okay,
Speaker 3: So you remember our friend and former Mental Flaws editor
Speaker 3: jess and Collins used to talk about chip o'clock in
Speaker 3: the office.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for you listeners, there was a period in the
Speaker 1: mid afternoon when the editorial staff and Mental Flaws used
Speaker 1: to all go out for their afternoon snack and grab
Speaker 1: a bag of chips. It made her crazy.
Speaker 3: Well, while that sound may be difficult for the person
Speaker 3: not eating the chips to listen to, for the people
Speaker 3: eating chips, that sound likely increase their enjoyment. So papers
Speaker 3: have shown that people rate chips is tastier if they
Speaker 3: provide a louder crunch. It was even a study by
Speaker 3: Charles Spence and Maxampinie that had people eat one hundred
Speaker 3: and eighty pringles.
Speaker 1: I'm so envious that people got to eat pringles for
Speaker 1: sign I.
Speaker 3: Mean, we did get to have pop rocks and I
Speaker 3: kind of coke, and we got to watch Jerry have
Speaker 3: that bitter taste. But as they did this, they wore
Speaker 3: headphones that played back the sound of their crunch, so
Speaker 3: as they work their way through the chips, the researchers
Speaker 3: adjusted the volume level of the crunch feedback, and they
Speaker 3: found that the louder crunching made them rate the chips
Speaker 3: fifteen percent tastier than the softer crunching.
Speaker 1: I still can't believe they got to eat sprinkles for sign.
Speaker 1: I I know the sound of an expensive coffee maker
Speaker 1: has been showed to increase how people rated a cup
Speaker 1: of Joe, But I also loved the study where Spence
Speaker 1: had a group of subjects eat oysters while listening to
Speaker 1: different sounds. Some of them heard the sounds of waves
Speaker 1: and seagulls, and some of them heard sounds from barnyards
Speaker 1: like chickens clucking and cows mooing. And not only did
Speaker 1: those who heard the sea sounds rate the oyster's tastier,
Speaker 1: they also experienced them as saltier.
Speaker 3: I love this stuff because it kind of feels like
Speaker 3: food trickery. But I guess as we understand that all
Speaker 3: our senses are involved in how we experience flavor, it's
Speaker 3: really no more trickery than anything else we do to
Speaker 3: enhance flavor. So let's talk about some of the other
Speaker 3: multi sensory effects on flavor.
Speaker 1: I love that music can affect how we experience flavor.
Speaker 1: Like Holmes notes that really powerful music like Carl Orff's
Speaker 1: Carmina Burana causes people to note the heavier flavors in
Speaker 1: a red wine and what he describes as zingie music
Speaker 1: actually brings out the brighter flavors and a white wine.
Speaker 1: And with that in mind, I'd like to recommend after
Speaker 1: the show we all listened to Holland Oates and neat
Speaker 1: a bag of rollos. I bet that can only make
Speaker 1: the experience of both better.
Speaker 3: And then we'll eat one of those Reese's Fast Break
Speaker 3: bars and listen to Aya the Tiger.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's science and action, folks. We'll report back.
Speaker 3: But there's some other fun and funny results of experiments,
Speaker 3: Like there was this Goldilock style experiments using three bowls
Speaker 3: of yogurt. Yogurt was the same in all three bowls,
Speaker 3: but the bulls weighed different amount.
Speaker 1: And how many bears were involved this is zero.
Speaker 3: It wasn't published in our bear reviewed medical journals, but
Speaker 3: people did note that they enjoyed the yogurt in the
Speaker 3: heaviest bowl, most like, why should weight of a bowl
Speaker 3: affect your enjoyment? And strawberry moose served on a white
Speaker 3: plate was rated sweeter than the same dessert served on
Speaker 3: a black plate.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite studies was the one on hockey
Speaker 1: fans at Cornell, and researchers found that when the home
Speaker 1: team won, fans actually found the ice cream to be sweeter,
Speaker 1: and when they lost, they noted it as more sour.
Speaker 1: How weird is that?
Speaker 3: That's almost as sciencey as our science.
Speaker 1: Okay, so if all these senses contribute to flavor, why
Speaker 1: do we only associate flavor with the stuff happening in
Speaker 1: our mouths?
Speaker 3: Well, that's the work of our brains. It takes all
Speaker 3: that information smell, taste, texture, sound and combines it into
Speaker 3: one experience, and then it tells us that experience is
Speaker 3: happening in our mouths. So as a side note, many
Speaker 3: food scientists now say that while foods obviously contain flavor molecules,
Speaker 3: they believe the actual flavors themselves aren't created by the food,
Speaker 3: but instead by our brains.
Speaker 1: Which I guess would be a big part of the
Speaker 1: reason why we all experience flavor differently.
Speaker 3: That's just weird, yes it is. But we are not
Speaker 3: done with our weird facts for the day. You know
Speaker 3: what time it is. It's time for the part time
Speaker 3: genius factos, the part of the show where we share
Speaker 3: some of the interesting facts we learned recently but didn't
Speaker 3: get a chance to mention just yet.
Speaker 1: So Bill, why don't you start this round all right?
Speaker 3: Sure? So? If you read airline mages, you often see
Speaker 3: that famous chefs pair up with airlines to improve the
Speaker 3: n flight meals, but the odds are stacked against them.
Speaker 3: According to a study commission by the German airline carrier Lufthansa,
Speaker 3: between the elevation and the dryness that occurs in the cabin,
Speaker 3: your sensitivity to sweet and salty foods decreases by about
Speaker 3: thirty percent, which means the meal probably tastes a whole
Speaker 3: lot better if you save it for after you land.
Speaker 1: Do you know? Peanut butter and mayo sandwiches used to
Speaker 1: be a popular thing like According to Garden and Gun magazine,
Speaker 1: The sandwiches were a staple during the Depression and could
Speaker 1: be fancied up by adding a few leaves of lettuce
Speaker 1: and some pickles, and so the editors at food fifty
Speaker 1: two this other site, also tried the sandwich on reader recommendation,
Speaker 1: and their verdict was, if you wear a blindfold when
Speaker 1: you take a bite, it almost tastes like a tuna sandwich.
Speaker 3: All right, why don't we just name a few odd
Speaker 3: recipes we've found since we both looked them up. The
Speaker 3: Betty Crocker recommended a tuna and jello pie, also known
Speaker 3: as a summer.
Speaker 1: Pie devoid the winter sales slump. Doctor Pepper Wren ads
Speaker 1: that you should heat the soda in a saucepan and
Speaker 1: then poured over a lemon. Gross which is why nothing
Speaker 1: reminds me of Christmas more than a steaming mug of
Speaker 1: Doctor Pepper.
Speaker 3: Did you know that Johnny Walker makes a mustache wax
Speaker 3: that enhances their drinks. The wax comes in three flavors, pepper, citrus,
Speaker 3: and ginger, and it helps to apply a generous amount
Speaker 3: to your stash.
Speaker 1: So, I know, we talked about eating in texture today,
Speaker 1: but I learned this isn't a completely new concept. In
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, the Italian futurists played with food and
Speaker 1: texture in a completely different way. Diners were clothed in
Speaker 1: textured pajamas which they stroked with one hand in a
Speaker 1: dark room while burying their face and vegful. What and
Speaker 1: when they looked up for their plates, a waiter which
Speaker 1: sprits them with perfume. For some reason, the movement didn't
Speaker 1: take I.
Speaker 3: Can't imagine why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, futurists hated pasta, and they like to sculpt their meats.
Speaker 1: And there was also one course where you ate salad
Speaker 1: out of a tiny box with one hand and turned
Speaker 1: a crank with the other. As long as you were
Speaker 1: turning the crank, your waiter would dance for you.
Speaker 3: That is so good. I have to give you this one,
Speaker 3: so you earned this week's fact Off. Speaking of which
Speaker 3: we need to nominate as smarty pants to our Hall
Speaker 3: of Genius. I'm thinking we should give it to William
Speaker 3: Mitchell's family. Mitchell was a food inventor who grew up
Speaker 3: on a farm, worked his way through college, and then
Speaker 3: went on to invent cool whip, powdered egg whites for
Speaker 3: cake mix, quickset, jello tang and.
Speaker 1: That's so many amazing things and what.
Speaker 3: And pop rocks. Apparently the candy was supposed to be
Speaker 3: a carbonated drink mix, but it worked better as a
Speaker 3: crazy kids treat.
Speaker 1: He's in William Mitchell's family. You'll be getting a certificate
Speaker 1: in the mail and special thanks to our brilliant nonfiction
Speaker 1: librarians over at the Hoover Public Library in Hoover, Alabama
Speaker 1: for recommending the book Flavored by Bob Holmes. If you
Speaker 1: like what you heard, be sure to pick up a
Speaker 1: copy today. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening to Part Time Genius. Be sure
Speaker 1: to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast.
Speaker 3: And because we're a brand new show, if you're feeling
Speaker 3: extra generous, we'd love it if you give us a
Speaker 3: rating on Apple Podcasts. Part Time Genius is produced by
Speaker 3: some of our favorite geniuses. It's edited by Tristan McNeil,
Speaker 3: theme song and audio mixing by Noel Brown. Our executive
Speaker 3: producer is Jerry Rowland. Our research team is Gabe Lucier,
Speaker 3: Lucas Adams, Autumn white Field, Madrano, Austin Thompson, and Meg Robbins.
Speaker 3: Jason Hope is our chief cheerleader.