1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom Never told you. Well, depending on 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: what do you listened to this recently, I'll say recently, 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: we had a women in Online Gaming episode and we 5 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: thought that we would run the two part series that 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: Kristen and Caroline did on women and video games sort 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: of supplement that to give you all kinds of background. 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: So this first one, part one looks at women in 9 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: the video game industry and how we could really use 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 1: some more women in the video game industry. I at 11 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: the time was a producer for Stuff I've Never Told You, 12 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: and there are really rad women making really rad games 13 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: and off my Bridget and I were talking about one 14 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: that I can every time I get drunk, I am 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: guaranteed to bring up the Path. It sounded, so explain it. 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: So basically, it's a game, and I love video games 17 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: that do this that they play with the objective of 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: the game. So it's kind of a based on Red 19 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: Little Red Riding Hood and your objective is to follow 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: the path to Grandmother's house where you're gonna meet grandmother 21 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: but also probably the wolf. If you follow the objective, 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: you lose. If you do what the video game is 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: telling you to do you lose, so you have to 24 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: go off the path and you just kind of wandering 25 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: around and seeing the scenery is really pretty, and you 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: will encounter a wolf that takes the form of you 27 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: do this six times, I think, and it takes a 28 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: different form of I would say something symbolic of what 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: women face in our lives, and it kills you. And 30 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: then when you're the seventh one, I guess spoiler alerts you. 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: The only way you can succeed, or at least the 32 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: way I interpreted it is the only way you could 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: succeed was by the sacrifice of these other women to 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: complete your mission. It's just fascinating and I could talk 35 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: about it forever. The Museum mode A Museum of Design 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: Atlanta had Women in Video Games exhibit and it was 37 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: all games made by women a couple of years ago, 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: and we went and the videos online if you want 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: to see it. There's some really cool, interesting, beautiful stuff 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: that women are making and I would love to see 41 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: more of that. Hell yeah, yeah, I love this idea 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: of video games making arguments about society. Because people think 43 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: of video games it's just a fun little pastime. It 44 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: can be. But you know, there can be games like 45 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: The Path that really make a salient point about gender 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: in this country, and I love it. Yeah, I love 47 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: video games that play with the formula of the ending, 48 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: because for video games to work, there is a specific formula, 49 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: but games are sharing to kind of play with it. 50 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: And there's one of my favorite games. The ending is 51 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: pretty much a big f you, two gamers, but in 52 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: a fun way that I love anyway. This is part 53 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: one of our Video Game Update series about women in 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: the video game industry. And welcome to the podcast. I'm 55 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Kristen's and I'm Caroline, and this is part one of 56 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: our two parter on women in video games. And originally 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: this was gonna just be one episode. We thought, hey, 58 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: women in video games about a being but a boom 59 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,119 Speaker 1: wait now yeah, yeah, because we took to our Facebook 60 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: page to ask Sminty listeners what they want to hear 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: about in terms of women in video games, and once 62 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: we took that into account and started researching, honestly, this 63 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: could be a three parter if we really wanted to 64 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: make it that because things that were requested for us 65 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: to talk about had to do with women in gaming, credibility, 66 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: the girl gamer stereotype, getting hit on while playing multiplayer games, 67 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: what it's like for women in the gaming industry, and 68 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: just within those few topics, there's still so many things 69 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: to discuss. Yeah, women, I think women in the gaming 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: industry are so fascinating, mainly because I'm not a math 71 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: person or a science person myself, and so I think 72 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 1: these women who are creating these games are so fascinating 73 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: and and the women who play them. Um. But I 74 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: was telling Kristen that that there was an ick factor 75 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: for me when I was reading some of our sources 76 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: about this topic, And You're thinking, what ick factor? What's 77 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: your problem girls in gaming? You know? And No, that's 78 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: that's not at all. The ick factor stems from the 79 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: fact that these women who are both playing the games 80 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: and designing the games faced so much abuse, so many 81 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: threats from men and boys in the industry and other gamers. 82 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: It just created this really icky feeling. But the upside, 83 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: the bright side to all of the recognition and the 84 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: more media attention to those ick factors, is the fact 85 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: that regardless of that, these women who are making and 86 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: playing games are really starting to change an entire industry, 87 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: or at least broaden an industry that has such a 88 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: massive reach to so many people. And I'm glad you 89 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: mentioned to care lines science and math because this is 90 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: in a way an extension of our series on women 91 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: in STEM science, technology, engineering in math, because remember this 92 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: is this is a STEM field. Video games is STEM yeah, 93 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 1: and like the rest of the STEM fields, male dominated exactly. 94 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: So for this part one episode, we are going to 95 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: focus on the video game industry and women in it, 96 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: and in part two we'll talk more about the women 97 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: who are playing the games and the women actually in 98 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: the video games. Right, so let's look at a breakdown 99 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: of who has the controllers. Percent of Americans altogether play 100 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: video games. The average game player is thirty years old, 101 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: but the largest demographic is thirty six and over. Now, 102 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 1: if you're looking just at women, this is coming from 103 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: the Entertainment Software Association's report on gaming, women make up 104 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: forty five percent of the entire game playing population. And 105 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: I think that's an important point to make right out 106 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: of the gate, because I think the stereotype is that 107 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: there's like two women total anywhere. It's just you and 108 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: me sitting here with our old game boys and childhood. 109 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: But we should point out that when we say the 110 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: entire game playing population, those games are not only things 111 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: like Call of Duty, but also candy crush on your 112 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,679 Speaker 1: phone or even board games. This is we're talking about 113 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: mega game here. But then if you look just at 114 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: video games, women still comprise of that gaming population. And 115 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: that's compared two boys seventeen and under, who comprise only 116 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: nineteen percent of the video game population. So there's still 117 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: plenty of women playing video games, and there are also 118 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: plenty of women buying video games. Forty six percent of 119 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: the time, women are the most frequent game purchasers, and 120 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: that might be because we are buying games for ourselves 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: but also buying games for gentlemen in our lives, or 122 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: maybe are women in our lives. Yeah, well, my mom 123 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: was the one who bought me video games when I 124 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: was a kid. Yeah, so there you go. There we go. 125 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: And by the way, if you can't keep up with 126 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: all of the sources that we're citing, don't worry. All 127 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: of them will be posted in the podcast post over 128 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: on stuff Mo'm Never told you dot Com because we're 129 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: going to cite a lot of statistics and we've got 130 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: a lot of sources coming your way. But don't worry 131 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: you will have one handy reference for that. Well. So 132 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: as far as what we are playing when we pick 133 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: up those controllers, Uh, this is coming from Variety back 134 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: in October. As many as thirty percent of women are 135 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: playing the more violent games like Halo. Uh. Call of 136 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: Duty counts about twenty of their players as women, while 137 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: Grand Theft Auto counts women as fifteen percent of its audience. 138 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: I will say Caroline that in regard to Halo, I 139 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: was just haloed out in college from sitting around more 140 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: hours than I care to even consider watching my then 141 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: boyfriend and his friends playing that game. I can't play 142 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: Halo for that reason. I mean, that's that's it for me. Um. Also, 143 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: I do take issue with this Variety article that repeatedly 144 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: referred to women playing games as quote unquote FEM players. 145 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: So strange just came out in Yeah that to me, 146 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: when you say fem, that has a totally different connotation 147 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: than just being a woman. Yeah. Now, when it comes 148 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: to who's making the games, the percentage of women shrinks 149 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: pretty drastically. Only eleven percent of video game developers are women. 150 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: And if we look inside the games, especially big name games, 151 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: you have even fewer women represented only four percent of 152 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: video game protagonists, for instance, among the top selling games 153 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: of two thousand thirteen. For instance, in two thousand thirteen, 154 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: among the top selling games, only four percent of those 155 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: games protagonists were women. And when you're in the store 156 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: looking at the boxes themselves, two thirds of all video 157 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: game box art features no female characters whatsoever. Now, there 158 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: are some games on the horizon that are adding, you know, 159 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: the option to play a female character. Games like Call 160 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: of Duty Ghosts you can customize your character and play 161 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: as a female soldier for the first time, which makes 162 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: sense considering women are now like legit allowed on the 163 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: front lines. So there's that um and the game Mass 164 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: Effect three has also added playable female characters. But I 165 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: mean you see that, like you see how the numbers 166 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: have decreased, as Kristen and I have ticked them off. 167 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: That you know, where you have thirty one percent a 168 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: video game playing people being women, but only of the developers. 169 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: It makes sense that they're you know, there's such a 170 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: all number of women actually developing the games, so that 171 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: kind of bleeds over into not having that many female characters. Yeah, 172 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: so let's talk for a minute about who these women 173 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: are who are working in video games and what kind 174 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: of stuff they're doing. First of all, I would like 175 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: to offer a shameless stuff mom never told you dot 176 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: com plug. We recently posted about Carol Shaw, who was 177 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: the first female video game designer, perhaps around the world, 178 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: but at least in the U S. She was definitely 179 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: the first. She worked her first job out of college 180 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: with Atari, and she created the highly popular game when 181 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: she moved over to Activision called Reberators. But the interesting 182 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: thing about her is that she's super low profile. She 183 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: got out of video games the gaming industry entirely in 184 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: the early nineties, essentially because she made some wise investments 185 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: in her husband made plenty of cash, so they realized 186 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: she was like, I don't need to do this anymore. Um. 187 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: But the numbers of women working in video games isn't 188 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: all that greater than it was in Carol Shaw's days 189 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: when she was the only woman really hanging out at Atari. UM. 190 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: In her time in the eighties, for instance, women comprised 191 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: about three percent of the video gaming workforce, but today 192 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: again it's only around twelve percent. Yeah, and when you 193 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: break down even further, the women who are in this industry. 194 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: So we we mentioned that they're eleven percent of video 195 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: game designers, they make up three percent of programmers, sixtent 196 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: of graphic designers, and of the tech jobs involved, like 197 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: for instance, building the software. And when you look at 198 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: some of those names, we have Donna Bailey who started 199 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: at Atari as an engineer in nineteen eighty. She co 200 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: created Centipede, which I used to play on my t 201 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: I eight five during biology class and freshman year of 202 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: high school. Yeah, and it's interesting that that Bailey was 203 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: working at Atari the same time as Carol Shaw. She 204 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: came on right after Shaw, but she ended up leaving 205 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: the industry distinctly because of criticism that she had to 206 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: deal with from her male colleagues. There's an interview with 207 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: Carol Shaw over on this video gaming website, I think 208 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: it's called like Vintage Video Games or something, and she 209 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: didn't really acknowledge sexism as a issue that she had 210 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: to deal with on a day to day basis. But 211 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: she also talked about how growing up she was a 212 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: real math nerd and so she was used to being 213 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: the only woman in the room and it kind of 214 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: just rolled off her back. She said it would happen 215 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: every now and then, but apparently for Donna Bailey it 216 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: was a lot more of a potent issue. Um. And 217 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: someone else who also comes up, who's still in the industry, 218 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: she's a rare veteran who's been working in the industry 219 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: since that's Brenda Romero, and she has credits on more 220 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: than twenty games. Yeah, and I mean speaking of criticism 221 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: from male colleagues and and male gamers, etcetera, etcetera. Romero 222 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: had an interesting quote that I cannot say on the 223 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: podcast where you know, people were talking to her about 224 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: gender issues, and she was talking about criticism from men, 225 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: and she basically said, and I will admit the bad words, 226 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: but she basically said, hey, you guys, I helped build 227 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: this industry. Did you like all my pauses? Um? You know, 228 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: she's basically saying, like, I am a veteran, I don't 229 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: deserve any less respect than these these men that I 230 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: work with. And and so there was a lot of 231 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: frustration in her tone that the female gamers and game 232 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: designers have to put up with all that abuse. Well, 233 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: imagine too that if you're someone like her who has 234 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: been working in games since the early eighties, how many 235 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: times she's had to answer that question too. I'm sure 236 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: that gender is perhaps an annoying topic for her to 237 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: even talk about, because you know, she probably wants to 238 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: be recognized as simply an amazing veteran designer, not oh, 239 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: you're a woman, what's that like? How do ovaries feel 240 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: so today? Considering the fact that women are still only 241 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: comprising around of the industry, A lot of the advice 242 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: that you hear for women who want to break into 243 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: the ranks in order to do that, essentially what women 244 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: need to do is just start building games. There are 245 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: so many resources now, you don't have to be working 246 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: for Nintendo to build an amazing game. And so it's 247 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: sort of it reminded me actually of advice that we 248 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: would hear Caroline in journalism school of how to become, 249 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: you know, a credible writer is you just have to 250 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: start writing. Whether you're doing you know, freelance jobs literally 251 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: for free or just starting a blog, you just start 252 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: making your stuff so that you have some kind of 253 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: resume for people to look at and see that you 254 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: can actually build these products. And on top of that, 255 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: especially if you're a woman, you got to have a 256 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: lot of perseverance in order to break in well. Yeah, 257 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: and especially since women, young women might not have the 258 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: same avenues open to them that that men do, especially 259 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about this in the STEM fields. 260 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: Not only are there fewer women in the STEM fields 261 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: than men, but that just means that there are fewer 262 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: allies bringing you in or even raising your interest if 263 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: you're like a twelve year old in math or science class. 264 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: And that's that's something that Kate Edwards said. She's the 265 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: executive director of the International Game Developers Association UM and 266 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: she says that the root issue is that we really 267 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: need to bolster the availability of STEM programs for girls 268 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: and young women to get them interested in games as 269 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: a career path. And it's the same thing that Kristen 270 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: and I talked about in our whole STEM series. If 271 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: you get out there, if you get the idea into 272 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: girls heads from a young age that these are even 273 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: jobs that are available. Maybe they just don't know, or 274 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: maybe they think, no, that's just a guy thing. So 275 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: getting it into their heads is so very important, which 276 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: leads then and again echoing our STEM series, to the 277 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: importance of the visibility of women in games. While it's 278 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: a lot of fun to play or watch something like 279 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: let's say Halo, if I hadn't spent so many hours 280 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: watching an ex boyfriend played in college, those kind of 281 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's not saying that all all 282 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: video game characters need to be women in order for 283 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: this to happen, but there is a distinct absence of them. 284 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: And so one thing that comes up a lot when 285 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: you're talking about the video game industry are issues of sexism. 286 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: And that's a controversial topic to bring up because a 287 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: lot of gamers don't take too kindly to these kinds 288 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: of critiques on the industry. But when you simply look 289 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: at the numbers and how marketing money is siphoned out, 290 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: it's the same kind of assumptions that are made in 291 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: the video game industry as are made in Hollywood, in 292 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: terms of assuming that, well, you know what, if we 293 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: make a movie about women, guys aren't gonna want to 294 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: go see it, But if we make a movie about men, 295 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: than men and women are gonna go see it. So 296 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna make a lot more money, even though statistics 297 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: suggest otherwise. So let's talk a little bit how that 298 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: applies to video games. When we come right back from 299 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: a quick break, Okay, so right before the break, Christian 300 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: was talking about some of the obstacles that women have 301 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 1: to face in the game gaming industry. Uh, one of 302 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 1: those being marketing and the fact that a lot less 303 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: money goes to women developers and marketing for women led games. Yeah, 304 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: because a lot of times when you get more women 305 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: on a creative team, they're like, oh, hey, you know, 306 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: we could we could make this game about a female 307 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: protagonist or at least have you know, women in addition 308 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: to men in the game that you that are playable characters. 309 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: But Jeffrey Zatkin, who's a video game analyst, talked about 310 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: this to Penny Arcades Ben Kachiera in this article that 311 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: was widely publicized, and zach And said, quote, games with 312 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: a female only protagonist get half the spending of female 313 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: optional protagonist games and only the marketing budget of male 314 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: led games less than that actually, because he goes on 315 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: to explain of that thinking that well, the only people 316 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: playing games or guys, so we gotta make games for guys. 317 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: And well, yes, guys do make up a majority, but 318 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: you still are overlooking a massive population. And one thing 319 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 1: they talk about as far as money goes is the 320 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: whole thing of Well, it would take so much time 321 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: and money to to, you know, redo some of these 322 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: characters to be women. And it's like it takes seriously, 323 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: it takes so long to craft realistic looking breasts, Caroline, Well, obviously, 324 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean you see how long did it take to 325 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: demold Laura Crofts first first figure? And this is something 326 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: that the site VG two four sevens Brenna Hillier took 327 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: issue with. An example of this more recently when the 328 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: video game company Capcom was making this game called Deep Down, 329 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: and one of the gamemakers said explicitly, hey, we're not 330 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: going to have any female characters in this game, or 331 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 1: I think he more just said We're only gonna have 332 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: dudes in this game. But her point was, Hey, this 333 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: is a game about time travelers kind of going through 334 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: and fighting historic missions here and there, and I'm just 335 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: not buying this that somehow because they said, for quote 336 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: unquote plot reasons they could only stick with men, to 337 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: which she basically said, hey, you know what, I Hey, 338 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. And be quote better lazily crafted 339 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: women than no women at all. Basically, you can make 340 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: it work if you want to make it work. Yeah, 341 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: and she she writes this basically fake script between this 342 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: imagined converse station between a gamer and a developer and 343 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: just a woman just like woman character, and through this 344 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: conversation she has these these two dimensional characters realize like, 345 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: oh wait, if we make games that don't treat women 346 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: like subhuman dust bunnies, fit only to be rescued, kidnapped, 347 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: lusted after, or left out of the picture altogether, women 348 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: might buy more of our games. Yeah, and if you 349 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: want to remain a growth industry, then it would be 350 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: wise you would think to go after new audiences, new 351 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: consumers who were just sitting there waiting wanting to play games. 352 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: They're already playing games. And I liked how she pointed out, how, hey, listen, 353 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: if you're taking all of this time to make all 354 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 1: these different kinds of armor and weapons, and you know, 355 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: carefully sculpting men's pectoral muscles, then you can't just you 356 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: can't add another option, just a one more player option 357 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: for female. And on top of that, she before she 358 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: even goes into her explanation, sort of makes a preemptive Hey, 359 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: if you are about to comment talking about how women 360 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: have no place in video games, just save yourself the time, 361 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: because I'm not going to respond to it because this 362 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: is an argument that comes up all the time and 363 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: it's foolish. It's simply foolishness. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, so, Um, 364 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: moving outside of the game and into the real world, 365 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: let's look at the actual direct sexism that women in 366 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: the gaming industry experience. Um, Chris and I have talked 367 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: about on the podcast before. Different social movements that kind 368 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: of are birthed on Twitter, various hashtags that sort of 369 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: rally people to a cause, and the gaming industry is 370 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: no different. They got the One Reason Why hashtag back 371 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: in twelve that ended up revealing a lot of issues 372 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: that women in the industry face. Yeah, there are all 373 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: sorts of issues of harassment that women were sharing via 374 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: Twitter without hashtags, such as getting groped at gaming conventions, 375 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: issues of isolation, being dissatisfied with the product. One tweet 376 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: but for instance, said because I got blank stairs when 377 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: I asked why a female soldier in a game I 378 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: worked on looked like a porn star. On top of that, 379 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: their issues of pay gaps. On average, for instance, women 380 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: make less than men in the industry, and on and 381 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: on and on and and in between those tweets about 382 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: issues of harassment. You also had a lot of women 383 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 1: stepping forward too and saying, hey, if we don't want 384 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: to discourage other women from getting involved in games, the 385 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: fact of the the matter is we need more and if 386 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: someone's looking for a mentor, I'll step up and do it. 387 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: You know, there's there's clearly some solidarity that's going on 388 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, but then you have the issue of 389 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: women leaving the industry altogether because of that harassment and 390 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: death threats and rape threats that they have faced online. 391 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: Zoe Quinn, for instance, she created the game Depressed in Quest. 392 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,959 Speaker 1: She received an onslaught of harassment basically just because of 393 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: her gender, because she dared, as a female create a game. Yeah. 394 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: I forget the name of the site, but essentially she 395 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: made this game herself and posted it on um some 396 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: kind of like game sharing site and just got dog 397 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: piled with all of this harassment going on. And I mean, 398 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: the the interview that she gave to Vice magazine was 399 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: heartbreaking because she just she was clearly so exhausted by it, 400 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: like it was to the point to where, you know, 401 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: when when you get to a point to where rape 402 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: threats really don't have any impact on you. That's not 403 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: a good place to be in and that's not the 404 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: way it should be. Absolutely not. And Kate Edwards, who 405 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, she's the executive director of the International 406 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: Game Developers Association. She was talking to Polygon and saying 407 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: that the organization is looking into starting support groups for 408 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: developers because of this problem. And she says that while 409 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: the harassment isn't having a major impact on development yet, 410 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: she said, we're at the cusp of where it could. 411 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: And while men do get death threats too, I mean, 412 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: the bulk of them are against women. I mean former 413 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: BioWare developer Jennifer Helpler, her name is in the news 414 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: a lot because she received death threats against her children. Yeah, 415 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: the story of her harassment is just kind of mind 416 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: boggling in the way that it took off. Because there 417 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: was a snippet from some interview that she had done 418 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: years ago about her like gaming habits or something, and 419 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: it got reposted on a forum and essentially a cyber 420 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 1: mob organized around it, and eventually it got to the 421 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,160 Speaker 1: point to where people we had found out not only 422 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: her address but also the address of her children's school, 423 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 1: and we're posting it online, threatening to you know, kidnap 424 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: her children from school, telling her that her ldren should 425 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: have been aborted, threatening to rape her. And and even 426 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: when male developers get death threats as well, because they 427 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: also deal with this. You know, we don't want to 428 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: say that women are exclusively the targets of this kind 429 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: of cyber harassment, but a lot of times too, when 430 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: men get threats, it's often linked to and we're going 431 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: to rape your wife. They're always these like just violent 432 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: rapey threats that happened. And if they're not threatening their 433 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: wives or with violence, they're just talking about how you're gay, 434 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: like well in in possibly other words, but I mean 435 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: that's the gist, like we're going to insult you and 436 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: threaten you by saying that you're gay. Yeah, And this 437 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: is this is the dark side of the gaming, the hardcore, 438 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: the hardest of the hardcore gaming community. Which there was 439 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: one article that I was reading talking about how a 440 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: lot of them actually might be younger boys, that subset 441 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: of the you know, the seventeen and under demographic who 442 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: might be making more of these direct kind of threats 443 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: because older men with jobs might not you know, might 444 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: be a little wiser to putting leaving a breadcrumb trail 445 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: of cyber harassment that could possibly threaten their employment at 446 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: some point. Um. But it's horrifying to see what women 447 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: like Jennifer Helper and Zoe Quinn are having to put 448 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 1: up with that shouldn't be part of the expected job. 449 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: And that was the thing Kate Edwards was saying, was that, 450 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really becoming something that you need to 451 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: especially if you're a woman in the industry you've got 452 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: a prep for. Yeah, it has a total chilling effect 453 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: not only on women wanting to enter the field, but 454 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: on them wanting to stay in the field. Yeah. And 455 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: it's also a byproduct too of social media in the 456 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: sense that you know, there has never been a thinner 457 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: line between you know, the industry side and the player side, 458 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: where now, you know, thanks to social media, you can 459 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, tweet directly to these people whatever you think. 460 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: And I think also part of the harassment that Heppler 461 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: was receiving was because she was um influential in making 462 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: the switch in a BioWare game to allow gay romance 463 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: among male protagonists. Yeah, you know, but I mean, speaking 464 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: of that, that social media, that fine line, that one 465 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: one thing we read was talking to this guy who 466 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: was basically the quote unquote sheriff. He worked for Microsoft 467 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: when they were developing this game and there were changes there. 468 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: There were going to be changes happening, and so as 469 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: the sheriff for kind of social media interaction, he was 470 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: tasked with dealing with some of this harassment and these 471 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: these basically crazed fans, this core group of gamers who 472 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,239 Speaker 1: were so upset by the changes, and he, because he 473 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: was a public face, he himself became the like, got 474 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: the brunt of the abuse, and he was like, look, 475 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not dealing with that. I think he 476 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: moderated Xbox Live, which I cannot even imagine because the 477 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: kind of there are studies that have been done analyzing 478 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: the events that players will make back to each other 479 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: while they're you know, playing games together, and it's like 480 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: horrific stuff that they say back and forth. So you 481 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: can only imagine if they're disgruntled at some kind of 482 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: game change that is being made. And he said he's 483 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: no longer working there, but he told the interviewer that 484 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: he still gets like fifty emails a day from people 485 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: who are just enraged about something. Um, I feel like 486 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: those people should like take up a volunteering project or 487 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: or become a social advocate for something like, direct that 488 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: passion into something useful. I don't know, well, I think 489 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: it's I don't think it's because working on the Internet. 490 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to believe that it's because people are 491 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: evil in their hearts, because that would just make it 492 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: really hard for me to wake up and go to 493 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: work in the morning. I think it's because of the 494 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: anonymity of the Internet. This is the awful byproduct of it, 495 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: is that people are growing up more and more having 496 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: no consequence for their communications because we are communicating more 497 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: and more via text message, via you know, instant message, Twitter, 498 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: YouTube comments, and you just say whatever comes to your mind. 499 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: But I do wish they would direct the rage into 500 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: something more productive. Yeah, you and me both, um. But 501 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: moving away from this dark underbelly of what it is 502 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: like sometimes to work in video games, let's go on 503 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: the complete opposite end of the spectrum to not so 504 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: much the women making the games, but the women who 505 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: might be promoting the games at conventions like E three. 506 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: Although I think E three is cracking down on this. Um, 507 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: we gotta talk about booth babes for a minute, Yeah, 508 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: and booth babes. You know, it might be models, it's 509 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: it's typically really attractive younger women who do know a thing. 510 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: They tend to know a thing or two about the games, 511 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: whether it's whether it's just to be able to answer 512 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: basic questions from guys that convence, or whether they're actual 513 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: gamers themselves. But there there are a lot of stories 514 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: same same with um booth babes at marijuana weed conventions, 515 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: at UH beer tasting conventions, like it seems to be 516 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: a common thread through conventions really. But anyway, um, whether 517 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: it's sex cells, Oh my gosh, did I just coin 518 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: a term? I think you just coin yeah, that we're 519 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: onto something. But so anyway, these these booth babes as 520 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: they're called, are pretty popular way to kind of like 521 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: chill your product, draw people to your booth, you know, 522 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: attract more men to your product. But they're kind of 523 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: not as big of a thing as they used to be. Yeah, 524 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: I think that as there has been more speaking of 525 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: the power of social media, I mean, for every evil, 526 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: there's also a lot of good, including like the one 527 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: reason why hashtag. But also I think that this is 528 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: partially why UM booth babes are seen in a less 529 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: positive simply because everybody's seeing them now. Whenever a giant 530 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: gaming convention happens, you know, there's now this, well, who's 531 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: using booth babes? Are we still trying to use boobs 532 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: to sell video games or technology? UM and Spencer Chin 533 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: wrote a piece for tech Crunch about a little experiment 534 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: that he did with a split test for UM and 535 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: I forget which company it was, but it was some 536 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: tech company and they were allowed to have two spaces 537 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: at a convention. He was like, you know what I'm 538 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: gonna do. I'm going to have just knowledgeable people at 539 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: one and I'll have booth babes at the other, and 540 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: we'll see how many sales are converted for one versus 541 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: the other. And guess what. The booth babes don't actually 542 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: help sell products because a lot of times the men 543 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: who you know swarm to booth babes are probably not 544 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,479 Speaker 1: the key stakeholders that you need to talk to in 545 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: order to actually sell your product, and mass a lot 546 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: of times they're just maybe lower level employees who are 547 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: really pumped about seeing, you know, getting to go to 548 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: Vegas for a week and maybe take pictures with booth babes. Um. 549 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: Whereas when you stock your booth, which is knowledgeable people 550 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: who may or may not be in bikinis, you actually 551 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: sell things a lot more effectively. Yeah, especially if if 552 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: the person walking around from booth to booth is a woman. 553 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: Women tend to avoid the booth babes there. Yeah. Um, 554 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: but I will say this remind me to of that 555 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: email that we received and read at the end of 556 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: our marijuana episode from a craft beer model, a beer babe, 557 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: if you will, and she was basically saying, listen, I 558 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: have blonde hair and big boobs, and I really enjoy beer, 559 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: and this is a stereotype that I have to deal 560 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: with the assumption that just by virtue of how I look, 561 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: that I'm a bimbo and so booth babe. Elaine Lowe 562 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: wrote sort of a similar self defense over at Jezebel, 563 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: basically being like, hey, listen, booth babes are getting all 564 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: sorts of flak, but we're usually just trying to make 565 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: a buck at these things. Yeah, she says, the depressing 566 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: truth is that standing around in a costume at a 567 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: convention pace, far better than writing ever has so it's 568 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: it's being used to supplement other career goals, and I'm 569 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: sure she probably makes more doing that than she would 570 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: like waiting tables at a coffee house or something. Yeah, 571 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: and the thing about it too is that you are 572 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: There was an article published at The Verge in early 573 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen talking about how booth babes are gradually 574 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: being replaced by booth bros and booth bots, which makes 575 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: so much more sense because this is technology. Robots, John Robot, Yeah, 576 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: he was talking about how people just like flocked to 577 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: these booth bots because they're interactive and you can you know, 578 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,719 Speaker 1: I mean and robots. Your your audience is gamers, and 579 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: you're putting a big old robot in your booth like 580 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: that's awesome. Yeah, I would want to go play with 581 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: the robot. I'd rather go play with the robot. And 582 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: I think as this has gotten more and more attention, 583 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: sort of like with the whole bro grammar culture in 584 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, the tech industry as well, where it's being 585 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: a little bit more looked down upon. To be so 586 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: directly insensitive to the women who are starting to comprise 587 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: greater numbers of your industry, it just makes you look 588 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: a little foolish if to use that kind of knee 589 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: jerk promotion. And I don't have her name in front 590 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: of me, but there was actually a relatively high profile 591 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: women women in video games who stepped down from a 592 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: position because with a with a company, because she went 593 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: to an event and they were booth babes everywhere and 594 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: she was just like, Nope, you don't know you clearly 595 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: your company, you know standards, clearly don't align to my standards. 596 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: See you later. I'll find somebody who actually gets it interesting. Yeah, 597 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: And so I mean that kind of leads a to 598 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: this question of is it getting better? And yes, I 599 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: think it's absolutely getting better. There are still so many 600 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: horror stories, particularly coming from you know, just these cyber 601 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: mobs that pop up every now and then, but I 602 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: think in terms of the industry itself, there's at least 603 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: more recognition and there are a lot of women at 604 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: the top. We don't want to make this a totally 605 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: deb downer kind of episode because there are a lot 606 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: of women who are doing a lot of amazing things. 607 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: You've got women like Jade Raymond, who's the head of 608 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: Ubisoft Toronto, who oversaw three person team creating Tom Clancy 609 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: Splinter Cell Blacklist. Yeah, there's also Bonnie Ross and Keikey 610 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: wolf Kill at three three industries that are heading up 611 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 1: high profile games such as my favorite, the Halo franchise. Um. 612 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: There's also Kim mcculloffe and Elizabeth Sampett who are leaving 613 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: leading game designers at Microsoft Game Studios and Storm eight. 614 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: Hope Cochrane is the CFO of king which publishes Candy Crush. 615 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: Let's be honest with women, we love some Candy Crush, 616 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: uh indicate CEO is Stephanie Bearish. Um. There's also hollylu 617 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: who co founded CABAM, which is known for its Kingdoms 618 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: of Camelot franchise. And there are I mean, we could 619 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: go on and on and on. There is literally a 620 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: laundry list of women sitting on these notes in front 621 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 1: of my face. And I don't want to just turn 622 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: this into calling a you know, a roll call of 623 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: every single woman, but it is excited to see, whether 624 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: it's with independent games or with larger corporations, you do 625 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: have women at the top levels. Kind of it's reflective 626 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: of what's going on in the broader tech industry where 627 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: you got we got plenty of women on the top, 628 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: and we have a lot of women I think too, 629 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: really want to break in there. It's like, how can 630 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: we build that bridge to where you know, there's more 631 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,800 Speaker 1: of a direct pipeline between the two because the younger 632 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: women need mentors. And one thing that's come up to 633 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: in conversations of women in the industry is how it 634 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: is so important to create an environment that will keep 635 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: them around long enough to where to where they are, 636 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: like a Brenda Romero who has veteran insight. Yeah, that's important. Yeah. Well, 637 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the women, UH, in the list of 638 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,760 Speaker 1: women at the top of the industry, some of them, 639 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, rose to the top, but some of them 640 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: co created their companies or solely created their companies, and 641 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: there is some recognition for that. Microsoft's recent Women in 642 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: Gaming Awards has quickly grown in just six years. It 643 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: began as a series of informal dinners hosted by a 644 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: group of female developers from the Xbox division UH, and 645 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: this past year they honored Anita Sarcasian, whose name is 646 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,959 Speaker 1: all over everything when you look up anything about women 647 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 1: in gaming. Yeah, and talk about controversial. Lord, We're gonna 648 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: talk about Anita Sarcasian in our next episode, I'm sure, 649 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: much to the chagrin of at least one person listening 650 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: who posted about how he didn't want to hear about 651 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: her name on our Facebook page, but we have to 652 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: talk about her. She actually just received a huge award 653 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: from the UH Game Developers Association. It's some sort of 654 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: ambassadorial award recognizing people who have changed the industry for 655 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: the better. And I think that right there is assigned 656 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: to of how the industry is improving. So you know, 657 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: there's a lot of it's a tough road to hoe 658 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: right now. I think for if you if you're a 659 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,720 Speaker 1: woman in gaming. But I mean having Matt and talked 660 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 1: to women in the industry knew and who have been 661 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: in there for a while, I mean women they do 662 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: it because they love it. They're making things that that 663 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: are really fun to play and really enjoyable, and and 664 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: I feel like that passion for games sort of balances out, 665 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: at least to some extent, the issues the harassment or 666 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: sexism that they might have to deal with, at least 667 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: for a little while, because I mean, the fact is 668 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: a lot of that abuse is coming from people who 669 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: feel threatened. A lot of men and boys who feel like, no, 670 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: this is a male dominated industry needs to stay a 671 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: male dominated industry. So I'm going to abuse you into 672 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: maintaining the status quo. Yeah, or just kind of the 673 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: misguided logic industry wide of thinking that you have one 674 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: specific demo of, you know, an eighteen year old male 675 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: gamer who is the only person that you should cater to. 676 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: But I think that perspective is absolutely changing, and we're 677 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: going to talk a lot more about that and about 678 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: the women who are playing video games and the women 679 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: in video games in our part two of Women in 680 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: video Games. So now I hope that there are some 681 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,920 Speaker 1: people men, women, whomever who are working in the industry 682 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: or might have some insights that they can share with us. 683 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: Let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot 684 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: com is where you can email us. You can also 685 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: tweet us at mom Stuff pod Cast, and we've got 686 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you when we 687 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. I have a 688 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: letter here from Megan about our cars episode driving in Gender. 689 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: She says, I just wanted to let you guys know 690 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: that I am a woman and mom and I am 691 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: the main driver in my household. For a long time, 692 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 1: when we rode anywhere as a family, we rode in 693 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: my car just because that was where my daughter's car 694 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: seat was, and I almost always drove. But since then 695 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: we've bought a family car, both mine and my husband's, 696 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: but I still drive of the time when we go 697 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: somewhere together. Like in relationships where the man usually drives, 698 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: I typically drive because my husband is kind of a 699 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: nervous driver and he prefers to ride. He still comments 700 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: about me speeding and such, but he just gets much 701 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: more frustrated when he is driving, so it's just easier 702 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: for me to do it. I typically don't mind it, 703 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: but when he does drive, I enjoy the break. That's funny, Megan. 704 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: My boyfriend also comments on my speeding, and he can 705 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: just deal with it because I'm drive in So thank you. 706 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: Uh well, I've got an email here from Heather, also 707 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: about our men and Cars episode. She said I had 708 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: to laugh because this was a timely episode. I'm forty 709 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: three and just purchased a new car last weekend. Since 710 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: both my husband and son are in a physical therapy 711 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: assistant program right now, I'm the primary breadwinner. I went 712 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: to see about getting a car for my son, and 713 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: ended up buying a car for myself instead, and got 714 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: my son a perfectly good hand me down. He was 715 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: totally happy to get it. By the way, even though 716 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: the salesman knew I was the primary breadwinner and that 717 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: my car was paid off, he still asked me if 718 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: I was okay to buy the car without my husband. 719 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:49,240 Speaker 1: I smiled and simply said yes, even if he was here, 720 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: I would be making the same purchase. And she goes 721 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: on to say, Another thing I found funny is the 722 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,280 Speaker 1: stereotype that women don't know how to drive manual transmissions. 723 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,120 Speaker 1: I was taught on a stick shift and actually for 724 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: to drive them to an automatic. I think it's because 725 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: I'm such a control freak. Many times over the years, 726 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: salespeople have said, oh, this is a stick shift, Is 727 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: that okay? I tell them that I actually prefer that, 728 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: and they relax. The funny thing is that I've never 729 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 1: seen this happen when my husband has gone looking for cars. 730 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: My last car was a stick and when the woman 731 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: came out to go over the final paperwork, she was 732 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: reading quickly and started handing me the keys and then 733 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: pulled them back as she said, oh, this is a 734 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: stick shift? Can you drive a stick I thought, really no, 735 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: I just figured out how to drive one with a 736 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: brand new car. Here's your sign. Some thing's never change. 737 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: The can you drive a stick has now become are 738 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: you okay to buy this without your husband? For the record, 739 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: I have the better driving record in our household, and 740 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: the way we decide who drives is by whose car 741 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: we're taking. If it's mine, I drive, If it's his, 742 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: he drives. However, on long trips we take turns. So 743 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: thanks Heather, and thanks to everybody who's written in to us. 744 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can 745 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: email us and to find links to all of our 746 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: social media as well as this podcast episode with all 747 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 1: of our sources included. And you know, if you want 748 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 1: to watch our videos and read our blogs as well, 749 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: there's one place to go. It's stuff Mom Never Told 750 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: You dot com. For more on this and thousands of 751 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: other topics, visit how Stuff Works dot com.