WEBVTT - Take Back Your Power at Work (How-To Monday) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.720 Hey, hey ba fam, Welcome to Hallibak th Rowback Monday, 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.680 where we take older episodes of the show and make 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:09.400 them new again because we have got some gems in 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.639 the vault. Y'all, so a couple of years ago, this 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.600 is one of my favorite conversations ever. I got to 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.439 interview the Great Deepa Perusha Thamman, who is the author 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.400 of The First, The Few, The Only, How women of 0:00:21.440 --> 0:00:25.080 color can redefine power in corporate America. Listen in if 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.160 you want a crash course on how to set boundaries 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.760 at work, listen to your body so you don't get 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.560 burned out, and how to play the corporate game as 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.040 you change it. I am obsessed with this episode. I 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.720 hope that you guys enjoy this throwback. Check it out 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:40.479 and let us know what you think. Don't forget to 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.440 leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or slide into 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.640 our DMS. We are on Instagram at Brand Ambition Podcast. 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.960 Hey hey va fam, it is Mandra back with another 0:00:56.000 --> 0:01:00.800 episode of Round Ambition. Today's guest, y'all, is incretatively special. 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.440 I had the opportunity to speak with Today's guests last week, 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:07.880 and I knew from that conversation that I was like, 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:09.560 you have to be on Brown Ambition. And this is 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.120 how quickly I made it happen. Okay, within one week, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.640 I have her on the show, and I am so 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.520 excited to bring today's guest to you. Her name is 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.640 Deepa Pershathaman. She is I don't even You're going to 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.280 have to bear with me because this woman's accolades and 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.880 titles are just they go on for miles and miles 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:28.959 and miles. And I'm going to fight my own imposter 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:31.200 syndrome and explain a little bit to y'all about who 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:33.920 my new friend, Depa is. Okay. Not only is Deepa 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.319 the co founder of her own company called Information, which 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.240 provides brave, safe space for professional women of color to 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.760 advance in their careers, she is also a Women in 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:48.080 Public Policy program leader in Practice at Harvard Kennedy's School. 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:50.400 You may have heard of it. Prior to that, Deepa 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.600 spent more than twenty years in corporate America at Deloitte, 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.240 and she was the first Indian American woman to make 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:01.400 partner in the company's history history and with Deepa's deep 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.160 knowledge of what it means to be one of the first, 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:06.520 one of the few, one of the Only. She wrote 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:08.799 a beautiful book which you guys have to go pick up. 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.960 It just was released earlier this month. Go find her 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.480 new book. It's called The First, the Only. How Women 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.520 of Color can redefine power in Corporate America. Like I said, 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.960 it's out right now. Go to the show notes, you 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.160 can download your copy, you can pick up the book. 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.360 We have to support. I'm telling you, when women of 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.600 color publish books, I think it is all of our 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.280 duty to go and purchase them so that other women 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:32.640 of color can get book deals. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:32.880 Right. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.840 So, in this book, which is so unique, Deepa chronicles 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.440 over five hundred interviews with women of color, women who 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.160 were not just people of color in corporate America, but 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.000 their own version of the First, the Fuse, or the 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.200 onlies in corporate America. And Deepa in her book talks 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.840 about why it's finally time to stop glamorizing women of 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:56.440 color leaders in corporate America. Thank you for that, and 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.600 how we can start dismantling those outdated power structure so 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.560 that only a few of us seem to be able 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.400 to make it, and how that few can become many instead. 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.040 So thank you so much for letting me brag on 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.519 you DIPA. I know, thank you for having me uncomfortable 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.040 to listen to your own bio. But I was like, 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:17.200 you're going to listen to it? Oh, but you did it, 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.680 you survived. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition. 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:21.880 I'm so excited to chat with you. 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:23.960 I just feel like we have so many things to 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:24.919 talk about right. 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.320 Now, so let's jump into it. First few only different 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.360 I mean, I think you and I intimately as well 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.520 as our audience, knows what that is like, knows how 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.720 isolating it can feel. But I love and you know 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.200 where I think you and I have in common. One 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.320 of the many things is that we were able to 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.680 thrive in corporate America in spite of being one of 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:49.680 the few you know, first only difference in our world. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:52.480 And I know, I feel like what was so isolating 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.120 was that within your company there weren't many people who 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:57.600 look like you to turn to. But as soon as 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.640 I sort of opened up to meeting the first few 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.160 only difference outside of my company and you know, started 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.240 to open myself up to building those relationships, I was like, Okay, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.520 it feels like I'm alone, but I'm not alone. How 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:12.760 important is it to you? And like in your messaging 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:14.960 in the book for women of color, for us to 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.279 like find support among one another. 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.719 I think it's game changing. It's probably the most important 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.599 thing we can do. And my own story is similar 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.279 to yours. So I spent three years knowing it was 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.440 time to leave, and we can come back to all 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:30.560 the reasons why. But I knew it was time to leave, 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:32.760 and I struggled as a first. I struggled because I 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.159 felt like if I left, it would represent not only 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.719 potentially badly on me and my own challenges, and mine 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.359 were health related, so it wasn't even you know, a 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.280 capability issue in that sort of sense. But I also 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.119 worried that it would reflect on other women of color 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.520 coming after me. So I sat in my seat knowing 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.120 I wanted to leave, and probably being unhappy for a 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.120 little while just for that reason. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:53.080 And so in an. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.279 Attempt to figure out what to do, I started meeting 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.280 with women of color, because to your point, there weren't 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.640 a lot in my company. There were hardly any ahead 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.480 of me, and so it started one on one, eventually 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.880 turned into two person three person dinners, and then at 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:06.960 one point my now business partner who was then my 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.960 coach and I did about a dozen dinners across the 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.520 country where I met three hundred senior women of color, and. 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:14.599 That was game changing. 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.239 That was liberation because we would get in these rooms, 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.479 I thought for an hour or two to network, and 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.080 I'm not exaggerating, six seven, eight hours later we were 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.000 still you know, drinking wine, having chocolate, talking because we 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:28.800 had all the same stories, but we had never met 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.760 each other to talk about it, and so many of us, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.680 to your point, were isolated. So for me, that gave 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.320 me almost permission to go back and leave my role 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.760 and also started, you know, the book and the work 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.680 that I do now. But I think a lot of 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:42.920 us are isolated, and we think so much of what's 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:46.080 happening to us is us right, or it's our you know, 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:49.520 deficiencies or our insecurities. And what we realized from meeting 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.200 others is it's not us, it's the system. And that 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.239 I cannot tell you a freeing that is so so important. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:58.039 Yeah, I'm wondering why I wasn't invited to any of 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.960 these dinners. I'm incredibly jealous me next time. 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:03.960 Yes, it was, honestly, it's a great question. Was it 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:04.680 was word of mouth? 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.080 It was like friends of friends or through LinkedIn, And 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:08.960 that's the other challenge, by the way, like there isn't 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.680 a roster you can it's sometimes hard to find each 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.159 other and so and we're also taught not to reach 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:16.599 out to people, right that if you don't know people, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.760 everyone's busy and you don't want to bother them. 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:20.040 And I think the last. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:21.960 Few years have shown us we need community and it's 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:23.840 okay to reach out to people you don't know and 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:25.599 to make new friends. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.880 Yeah, a thousand percent. And I'm I'm the work that 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.240 you do with information, it was sort of it was 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:32.880 also I feel like for you, or maybe I'm just 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.000 speaking for myself, but it was an answer to that 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.359 lack that need, you know, can I build what I feel? 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.479 I feel like I could I would have loved to 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.440 have had while I was coming out moving through the things. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.800 I mean, Information was really kind of an outgrowth of 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:47.640 the dinners where we would end the dinners, you know 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:49.880 again literally in the parking lots at three o'clock in 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:51.680 the morning, and then women would say this is the 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.599 best thing I've been to, like, when are you doing 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.040 this again? Obviously, the business model and the whole plan had, 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.920 you know, turned on its head with COVID and George 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.200 Light's murder really changed how we talk about race at 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:04.200 work and all of that together, so we to rethink 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:05.800 how that would what that would look like is at 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:07.920 one point we thought it might be just dinners, right, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.600 like some sort of sequence of coming back, and it's 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.360 all gone virtual online and it's a very different format. 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.040 But it came out of that need to want to 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.360 continue the discussions and really bring together women so that 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.880 we're not struggling in the ways that we're struggling and 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.720 isolated and facing a lot of the trauma I think 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.840 on our own, which we shouldn't have to do, but 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:27.760 we haven't had space to talk about that before. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.320 Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean obviously you work with companies. 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.480 I mean that's part of your work is helping companies 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.760 figure out how to do how to make how to 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.360 change those systems that can make it so difficult for 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.600 women like us to thrive. And at the same time, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.679 I feel like it's also for me. It's about showing 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.760 that sometimes companies like we put too much expectation on 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:51.760 them to get it right in a way like, of 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.600 course they have the resources and you want women to succeed, 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.000 So here's what you should do. But I love about 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.760 information and just your own work. Was what if we 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.080 our own spaces and we find our own places where 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.280 we can feel safe. For me, it was also really 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.520 liberating to start doing that on my own, and I 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.080 don't think if I hadn't. Just like you, sometimes you 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.400 just can't wait for them to get it right because 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.200 some of us, like time is not necessarily something that 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.080 we have an abundance, especially when you're when you're trying 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:19.960 to move through your career. I feel like it's going 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.520 to take companies years and years and years. If they 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.240 just started in twenty twenty woo, it's going to take 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.640 them on a long time to start getting it right. 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.040 So in the meantime, it's about like, how can I 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.640 find resources like information or my own you know, coaching 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.960 program or whatever program may be close to you, But 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.920 where can you find community, like your community of peers 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.000 to lean on for support so that you don't get 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.240 burnt out, exhausted and leave. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.719 I also think companies sometimes, you know, I feel like 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.439 we're in a moment and I don't think all companies 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:52.840 are the same, right, There is a lot there are 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.160 a lot of companies in you and i've talked about 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.199 this doing performative work where they're not even really able 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.920 to do the hard liftings. They don't know what that is. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.080 But I think other companies want to do better. But 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.400 I mean same sort of situation. They don't really know 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:08.600 what to do. And so I think that's why a 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.000 lot of us are solving it outside of the structures 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.040 and the systems because we know for them to catch up. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.120 I'm not saying they can't ever do it, but it's 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:16.959 not a safe space right now. They don't know how 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:18.480 to hold the space. They don't know how to have 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.440 the conversations. And in some cases what we're talking about 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.000 is directly in the face of the things that they 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.200 worry about, right like we are talking about things like racism, 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.760 and from a legal perspective, a lot of the structures 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:32.160 and a lot of the system has been set up 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.439 to protect the company, and so it's. 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:35.840 Just they don't know what to do. 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.240 So we need a lot of the processes and a 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:40.439 lot of the culture to change. And so I think 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.560 while we're waiting, folks like you and I are trying 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.559 to figure it out and trying to provide the support 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.280 and hopefully the companies will catch up, but in case 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.720 they don't, we also have resources and ways of doing it. 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:52.760 Can we talk a little bit about, like if you 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.520 could pinpoint I don't know one or two examples of 0:09:55.600 --> 0:10:01.080 processes at companies that are creating these situations where more 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.319 women of color are not reaching the upper echelons at 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.199 their companies. Like what would some of those be that 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:08.600 you would love to see just dismantled? 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:10.959 Yeah, you know, the biggest one is just the reporting 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.600 processes for racism. So I have a you know, I 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:15.600 talked to a number of women and this is the 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:18.120 most shocking part so them. I talked to a number 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.560 of different women on all levels, but the most senior 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.400 women kept telling me the same stories over and over again. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.040 So a lot of them felt like they had been 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.160 taught I will, you know, maybe compromise on certain things. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.719 I will maybe show up a certain way, I will 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.000 maybe conform, but once I get to the seat, I'll 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:34.960 do it differently. And the challenge was a lot of 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:36.880 those women, once they got to the senior seats, they 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.000 found less ability to do it their way because there 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.200 was more pressure to kind of get along and toe 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.480 the line and do what the company was expecting them 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:45.520 to do. And the place where I found it the 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:49.160 most shocking was literally in reporting racism. So there's about 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.120 eight women that I spoke with again VP level and above, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.200 who told me they ended up leaving their industries, leaving 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.080 their companies because they reported a case of incident of racism, 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.280 whether it was them or someone they witnessed, and the 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.040 company didn't appreciate them doing that, even though they're for 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:07.480 all of the protocols, even though they followed the rules, 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.199 because a company all of a sudden felt like they 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.160 were liable right or they were legally could be held responsible. 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.000 So it was almost as if the woman who was 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.720 trying to tell her truth and improved the culture all 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.199 of a sudden became kind of the lightning rod or 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.440 the problem, and it was story after story after story. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.400 So I think at the highest level, at the simplest level, 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.920 I think we need new processes and new ways we 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.960 report racism. The reporting doesn't work. And also the people 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.040 sitting in the seats taking in the stories, what I 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:37.559 found is a lot of them are white leaders and 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.199 they don't necessarily understand racism. So there's a lot of 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:41.880 back and forth with that, it's not that bad, and 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:44.040 I don't really know what you're talking about. And so 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.360 sometimes in those cases, what I'm hearing is we need 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.679 outside folks to do that work. We need outside representatives, 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.120 we need outside investigators until companies can kind of catch up, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:54.960 put the right people in the seats and understand what 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:58.079 to do. So it's not a legal liable issue. It's 0:11:58.080 --> 0:11:59.360 a different sort of conversation. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.400 Yeah, it really doesn't feel safe to go to HR 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.080 anymore at all. It hasn't for a long time. There's 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.480 this lack of trust. And if companies think, okay, twenty 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.360 twenty happened, and you have a bunch of town halls 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.520 or group webinars or group zooms where you kind of 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.000 let you just like color, people of color, tell us 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.720 how you're feeling. If you've got you know, senior leaders 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.040 who are attending those calls and for half an hour 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.960 listening to people, and then oh, it doesn't seem that bad. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.120 People here seem to you know, but they don't trust 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.640 you enough to actually tell the truth in that half 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.600 hour zoom session. The trust isn't there. And I think 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.240 that you've touched on that, you know, a a in 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.280 a way that I'm just like, oh, that makes sense. 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.560 You know what if we take that reporting structure outside 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:40.520 of the company and we say, you don't have to 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.240 trust your manager or HR to handle your complaint, We're 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.240 gonna give it to this third party, and then maybe 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:48.560 it's even anonymized in some way. I don't know, but 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:51.920 make us feel safer putting our next out there, because 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.640 it's it's not a lot of upside, as you as 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:58.640 you've seen in your work, not a lot of upside 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.640 being the squeaky wheel sometimes. And you may think when 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.400 you get to a more senior level, like you said, 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.840 it gets easier, like your voice has more weight. But 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.000 I'm trying to think back now. Once I got to 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.080 like the senior director level and I was on track 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.120 to become a VP, the expectation immediately. I remember when 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.400 I was I asked my manager at the time, my 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.600 boss's boss, like, so I want to become a VP's 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:22.079 what do I what do I gotta do? Tell me 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.559 how it works. And one of the you know, one 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.920 of the I forget how many parts of the plan 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:29.880 to get me on the VP track. One of them 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.680 was demonstrating that I could work with the other department 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.599 heads and creating projects, and one by one it was 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.160 a white dude after a white dude, and learning how 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:46.280 to deal with those personalities and work in those rooms 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.080 and to feel like in order for me to get ahead, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.120 they had to endorse me, you know, it made it 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:58.000 even more challenging, like this is not my target audience, 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.320 you know what I mean. And I had found my 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:03.880 safe space, and I had and I had gotten very 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.760 far in my in my corner of the company. But 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.040 when I had to start reaching outward to those other 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.640 department heads, it was it was then when I was 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:17.600 like feeling that sense of do I belong here? Do 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.960 I want to be here? Is this really where I want? 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:20.520 You know what I mean? 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:23.280 And then we get to the feelings of guilt, like 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.040 you said, when you are the only one and it's 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:27.920 time and you realize it's time for you to move on. 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:32.360 So can you talk about that when we realize it's 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.800 no longer where we want to be? How do you 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:36.960 what kind of advice do you have for women who 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.760 are thinking, well, shoot, if it's not me, who's going 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.280 to be here to champion? You know, women of color 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:44.560 here represent us? 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.040 I think the most surprising thing I found in all 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:49.080 the women and I continue to work with is our 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.320 sense of responsibility, and it's deep and it's there for 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.240 women who even may think it's not there. And responsibility 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.320 to our communities, to our families. You know, I interviewed 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.640 a lot of immigrant women, for example, and I mean, 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.560 my parents are immigrants to this country, and the story 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.960 of sacrifice, right and how much my parents gave up 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.040 was like a constant topic of conversation. So that sense 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.200 of responsibility is different for different groups, but it's really ingrained, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:12.920 I think for a lot of the women of color 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.960 I interviewed, and so a lot of them will realize 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.240 I think somewhat, you know, halfway through, let's just call 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.520 it halfway through, that this is maybe not a culture 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.200 that I can thrive in, This is not maybe working 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.680 for me. But I got to continue pushing. And a 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.960 lot of women of color, I think, struggle because we've 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.040 one been told to be grateful for the opportunity, and 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.240 so we're confused. I think, to your point, we feel guilty. 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:36.600 I think a lot of us feel like our work 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.960 is getting to the seat and opening it up for others, 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.640 and you know, what does that really mean for us personally, 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:44.280 and a lot of us have been taught to sacrifice, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.880 and so I think it's all really difficult for me. 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.120 It came down to I had known for a while 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.440 that the lifestyle that I had was not conducive for me. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.000 So I started to get sick. That's kind of a 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.760 very long story short and I don't mean, you know, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.280 small small things. I mean every week it was like 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.200 a new symptom, to the point that I was probably 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.680 dealing with twenty or thirty symptoms. I'd been to fourteen doctors. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:05.960 I tell a story in the book, I've been to 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.760 fourteen doctors, and they all agreed there was something wrong 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.080 with me. You know, some of them related it to 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.600 age I turned forty, like maybe that's what had happened. 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.760 But they agreed something was happening. And I was at 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.120 my fourteenth doctor and she looked at me and she said, 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:20.960 we can keep running tests, or I can tell you 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.200 what I think you already know. And when I tell 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:24.600 the story, I always say like I had brought my 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:25.840 suitcase to the appointment. 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:26.840 Because I was a doctor. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:28.840 I saw when I traveled, because I lived on a plane. 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.680 I did three cities a week in the nature of 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.440 the job that I had, and so she's already judging me, like, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.120 why is this woman bringing her suitcase to a doctor's appointment? 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:38.880 And she said, I really think your job is making 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:40.600 you ill. I think your job is killing you. I 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.560 think you need to really do something else. My fourteenth 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.520 doctor and you know doctor I saw when I traveled, 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.720 and she asked me three life change of questions that 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:50.880 were profound, I think for anybody, but I think especially 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:52.720 for women of color. She said, what would you do 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.480 if you didn't do a big job like this? Her 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.240 second question to me was do you feel like you 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.760 have to do a big job to be worthy? And 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.280 her third question was don't you see your worthy being you? 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.160 And I think part of my struggle was I'd been 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.680 taught that, you know, some of my worthiness, a lot 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.520 of my worthiness came from performing, came from doing more, 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.720 came from showing up, came from succeeding. That was a 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.040 lot of what I had been taught, I think, especially 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.440 from my immigrant family. And it was a real struggle 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:23.760 to walk away from that life, to walk away from 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.400 the security of what that brought, and to really question 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.520 this is something I still want to do and the 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.040 most shocking thing of all of the women I spoke 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:32.960 with is I think a lot of us are sick 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:34.840 in ways that we don't talk about. So two out 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.520 of three women of color I interviewed were sick with 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:41.640 these what I call mysterious symptoms, right, so, stomach pains, 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.560 skin rashes, headaches, fertility issues, adrena fatigue, and I have 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.080