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Speaker 1: Hey, hey ba fam, Welcome to Hallibak th Rowback Monday,

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Speaker 1: where we take older episodes of the show and make

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Speaker 1: them new again because we have got some gems in

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Speaker 1: the vault. Y'all, so a couple of years ago, this

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorite conversations ever. I got to

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Speaker 1: interview the Great Deepa Perusha Thamman, who is the author

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Speaker 1: of The First, The Few, The Only, How women of

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Speaker 1: color can redefine power in corporate America. Listen in if

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Speaker 1: you want a crash course on how to set boundaries

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Speaker 1: at work, listen to your body so you don't get

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Speaker 1: burned out, and how to play the corporate game as

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Speaker 1: you change it. I am obsessed with this episode. I

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Speaker 1: hope that you guys enjoy this throwback. Check it out

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Speaker 1: and let us know what you think. Don't forget to

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Speaker 1: leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or slide into

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Speaker 1: our DMS. We are on Instagram at Brand Ambition Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Hey hey va fam, it is Mandra back with another

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Speaker 1: episode of Round Ambition. Today's guest, y'all, is incretatively special.

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Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to speak with Today's guests last week,

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Speaker 1: and I knew from that conversation that I was like,

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Speaker 1: you have to be on Brown Ambition. And this is

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Speaker 1: how quickly I made it happen. Okay, within one week,

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Speaker 1: I have her on the show, and I am so

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Speaker 1: excited to bring today's guest to you. Her name is

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Speaker 1: Deepa Pershathaman. She is I don't even You're going to

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Speaker 1: have to bear with me because this woman's accolades and

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Speaker 1: titles are just they go on for miles and miles

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Speaker 1: and miles. And I'm going to fight my own imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome and explain a little bit to y'all about who

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Speaker 1: my new friend, Depa is. Okay. Not only is Deepa

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Speaker 1: the co founder of her own company called Information, which

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Speaker 1: provides brave, safe space for professional women of color to

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Speaker 1: advance in their careers, she is also a Women in

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Speaker 1: Public Policy program leader in Practice at Harvard Kennedy's School.

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Speaker 1: You may have heard of it. Prior to that, Deepa

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Speaker 1: spent more than twenty years in corporate America at Deloitte,

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Speaker 1: and she was the first Indian American woman to make

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Speaker 1: partner in the company's history history and with Deepa's deep

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Speaker 1: knowledge of what it means to be one of the first,

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Speaker 1: one of the few, one of the Only. She wrote

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Speaker 1: a beautiful book which you guys have to go pick up.

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Speaker 1: It just was released earlier this month. Go find her

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Speaker 1: new book. It's called The First, the Only. How Women

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Speaker 1: of Color can redefine power in Corporate America. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's out right now. Go to the show notes, you

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Speaker 1: can download your copy, you can pick up the book.

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Speaker 1: We have to support. I'm telling you, when women of

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Speaker 1: color publish books, I think it is all of our

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Speaker 1: duty to go and purchase them so that other women

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Speaker 1: of color can get book deals.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So, in this book, which is so unique, Deepa chronicles

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Speaker 1: over five hundred interviews with women of color, women who

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Speaker 1: were not just people of color in corporate America, but

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Speaker 1: their own version of the First, the Fuse, or the

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Speaker 1: onlies in corporate America. And Deepa in her book talks

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Speaker 1: about why it's finally time to stop glamorizing women of

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Speaker 1: color leaders in corporate America. Thank you for that, and

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Speaker 1: how we can start dismantling those outdated power structure so

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Speaker 1: that only a few of us seem to be able

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Speaker 1: to make it, and how that few can become many instead.

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Speaker 1: So thank you so much for letting me brag on

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Speaker 1: you DIPA. I know, thank you for having me uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: to listen to your own bio. But I was like,

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Speaker 1: you're going to listen to it? Oh, but you did it,

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Speaker 1: you survived. Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to chat with you.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like we have so many things to

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Speaker 2: talk about right.

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Speaker 1: Now, so let's jump into it. First few only different

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think you and I intimately as well

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Speaker 1: as our audience, knows what that is like, knows how

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Speaker 1: isolating it can feel. But I love and you know

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Speaker 1: where I think you and I have in common. One

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Speaker 1: of the many things is that we were able to

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Speaker 1: thrive in corporate America in spite of being one of

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Speaker 1: the few you know, first only difference in our world.

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Speaker 1: And I know, I feel like what was so isolating

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Speaker 1: was that within your company there weren't many people who

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Speaker 1: look like you to turn to. But as soon as

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Speaker 1: I sort of opened up to meeting the first few

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Speaker 1: only difference outside of my company and you know, started

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Speaker 1: to open myself up to building those relationships, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it feels like I'm alone, but I'm not alone. How

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Speaker 1: important is it to you? And like in your messaging

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Speaker 1: in the book for women of color, for us to

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Speaker 1: like find support among one another.

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Speaker 2: I think it's game changing. It's probably the most important

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Speaker 2: thing we can do. And my own story is similar

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Speaker 2: to yours. So I spent three years knowing it was

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Speaker 2: time to leave, and we can come back to all

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Speaker 2: the reasons why. But I knew it was time to leave,

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Speaker 2: and I struggled as a first. I struggled because I

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Speaker 2: felt like if I left, it would represent not only

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Speaker 2: potentially badly on me and my own challenges, and mine

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Speaker 2: were health related, so it wasn't even you know, a

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Speaker 2: capability issue in that sort of sense. But I also

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Speaker 2: worried that it would reflect on other women of color

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Speaker 2: coming after me. So I sat in my seat knowing

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Speaker 2: I wanted to leave, and probably being unhappy for a

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Speaker 2: little while just for that reason.

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Speaker 3: And so in an.

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Speaker 2: Attempt to figure out what to do, I started meeting

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Speaker 2: with women of color, because to your point, there weren't

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Speaker 2: a lot in my company. There were hardly any ahead

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Speaker 2: of me, and so it started one on one, eventually

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Speaker 2: turned into two person three person dinners, and then at

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Speaker 2: one point my now business partner who was then my

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Speaker 2: coach and I did about a dozen dinners across the

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Speaker 2: country where I met three hundred senior women of color, and.

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Speaker 3: That was game changing.

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Speaker 2: That was liberation because we would get in these rooms,

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Speaker 2: I thought for an hour or two to network, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not exaggerating, six seven, eight hours later we were

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Speaker 2: still you know, drinking wine, having chocolate, talking because we

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Speaker 2: had all the same stories, but we had never met

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Speaker 2: each other to talk about it, and so many of us,

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Speaker 2: to your point, were isolated. So for me, that gave

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Speaker 2: me almost permission to go back and leave my role

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Speaker 2: and also started, you know, the book and the work

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Speaker 2: that I do now. But I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: us are isolated, and we think so much of what's

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Speaker 2: happening to us is us right, or it's our you know,

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Speaker 2: deficiencies or our insecurities. And what we realized from meeting

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Speaker 2: others is it's not us, it's the system. And that

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Speaker 2: I cannot tell you a freeing that is so so important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering why I wasn't invited to any of

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Speaker 1: these dinners. I'm incredibly jealous me next time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was, honestly, it's a great question. Was it

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Speaker 3: was word of mouth?

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Speaker 2: It was like friends of friends or through LinkedIn, And

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Speaker 2: that's the other challenge, by the way, like there isn't

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Speaker 2: a roster you can it's sometimes hard to find each

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Speaker 2: other and so and we're also taught not to reach

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Speaker 2: out to people, right that if you don't know people,

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Speaker 2: everyone's busy and you don't want to bother them.

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Speaker 3: And I think the last.

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Speaker 2: Few years have shown us we need community and it's

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Speaker 2: okay to reach out to people you don't know and

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Speaker 2: to make new friends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a thousand percent. And I'm I'm the work that

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Speaker 1: you do with information, it was sort of it was

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Speaker 1: also I feel like for you, or maybe I'm just

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Speaker 1: speaking for myself, but it was an answer to that

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Speaker 1: lack that need, you know, can I build what I feel?

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Speaker 1: I feel like I could I would have loved to

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Speaker 1: have had while I was coming out moving through the things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Information was really kind of an outgrowth of

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Speaker 2: the dinners where we would end the dinners, you know

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Speaker 2: again literally in the parking lots at three o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning, and then women would say this is the

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Speaker 2: best thing I've been to, like, when are you doing

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Speaker 2: this again? Obviously, the business model and the whole plan had,

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Speaker 2: you know, turned on its head with COVID and George

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Speaker 2: Light's murder really changed how we talk about race at

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Speaker 2: work and all of that together, so we to rethink

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Speaker 2: how that would what that would look like is at

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Speaker 2: one point we thought it might be just dinners, right,

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Speaker 2: like some sort of sequence of coming back, and it's

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Speaker 2: all gone virtual online and it's a very different format.

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Speaker 2: But it came out of that need to want to

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Speaker 2: continue the discussions and really bring together women so that

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Speaker 2: we're not struggling in the ways that we're struggling and

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Speaker 2: isolated and facing a lot of the trauma I think

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Speaker 2: on our own, which we shouldn't have to do, but

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Speaker 2: we haven't had space to talk about that before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And I mean obviously you work with companies.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's part of your work is helping companies

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Speaker 1: figure out how to do how to make how to

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Speaker 1: change those systems that can make it so difficult for

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Speaker 1: women like us to thrive. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's also for me. It's about showing

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Speaker 1: that sometimes companies like we put too much expectation on

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Speaker 1: them to get it right in a way like, of

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Speaker 1: course they have the resources and you want women to succeed,

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Speaker 1: So here's what you should do. But I love about

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Speaker 1: information and just your own work. Was what if we

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Speaker 1: our own spaces and we find our own places where

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Speaker 1: we can feel safe. For me, it was also really

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Speaker 1: liberating to start doing that on my own, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think if I hadn't. Just like you, sometimes you

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Speaker 1: just can't wait for them to get it right because

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Speaker 1: some of us, like time is not necessarily something that

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Speaker 1: we have an abundance, especially when you're when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to move through your career. I feel like it's going

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Speaker 1: to take companies years and years and years. If they

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Speaker 1: just started in twenty twenty woo, it's going to take

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Speaker 1: them on a long time to start getting it right.

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Speaker 1: So in the meantime, it's about like, how can I

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Speaker 1: find resources like information or my own you know, coaching

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Speaker 1: program or whatever program may be close to you, But

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Speaker 1: where can you find community, like your community of peers

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Speaker 1: to lean on for support so that you don't get

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Speaker 1: burnt out, exhausted and leave.

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Speaker 2: I also think companies sometimes, you know, I feel like

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Speaker 2: we're in a moment and I don't think all companies

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Speaker 2: are the same, right, There is a lot there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of companies in you and i've talked about

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Speaker 2: this doing performative work where they're not even really able

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Speaker 2: to do the hard liftings. They don't know what that is.

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Speaker 2: But I think other companies want to do better. But

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Speaker 2: I mean same sort of situation. They don't really know

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Speaker 2: what to do. And so I think that's why a

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Speaker 2: lot of us are solving it outside of the structures

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Speaker 2: and the systems because we know for them to catch up.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying they can't ever do it, but it's

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Speaker 2: not a safe space right now. They don't know how

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Speaker 2: to hold the space. They don't know how to have

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Speaker 2: the conversations. And in some cases what we're talking about

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Speaker 2: is directly in the face of the things that they

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Speaker 2: worry about, right like we are talking about things like racism,

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Speaker 2: and from a legal perspective, a lot of the structures

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Speaker 2: and a lot of the system has been set up

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Speaker 2: to protect the company, and so it's.

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Speaker 3: Just they don't know what to do.

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Speaker 2: So we need a lot of the processes and a

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Speaker 2: lot of the culture to change. And so I think

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Speaker 2: while we're waiting, folks like you and I are trying

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Speaker 2: to figure it out and trying to provide the support

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Speaker 2: and hopefully the companies will catch up, but in case

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Speaker 2: they don't, we also have resources and ways of doing it.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk a little bit about, like if you

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Speaker 1: could pinpoint I don't know one or two examples of

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Speaker 1: processes at companies that are creating these situations where more

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Speaker 1: women of color are not reaching the upper echelons at

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Speaker 1: their companies. Like what would some of those be that

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Speaker 1: you would love to see just dismantled?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the biggest one is just the reporting

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Speaker 2: processes for racism. So I have a you know, I

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Speaker 2: talked to a number of women and this is the

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Speaker 2: most shocking part so them. I talked to a number

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Speaker 2: of different women on all levels, but the most senior

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Speaker 2: women kept telling me the same stories over and over again.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of them felt like they had been

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Speaker 2: taught I will, you know, maybe compromise on certain things.

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Speaker 2: I will maybe show up a certain way, I will

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Speaker 2: maybe conform, but once I get to the seat, I'll

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Speaker 2: do it differently. And the challenge was a lot of

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Speaker 2: those women, once they got to the senior seats, they

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Speaker 2: found less ability to do it their way because there

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Speaker 2: was more pressure to kind of get along and toe

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Speaker 2: the line and do what the company was expecting them

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Speaker 2: to do. And the place where I found it the

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Speaker 2: most shocking was literally in reporting racism. So there's about

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Speaker 2: eight women that I spoke with again VP level and above,

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Speaker 2: who told me they ended up leaving their industries, leaving

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Speaker 2: their companies because they reported a case of incident of racism,

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Speaker 2: whether it was them or someone they witnessed, and the

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Speaker 2: company didn't appreciate them doing that, even though they're for

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Speaker 2: all of the protocols, even though they followed the rules,

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Speaker 2: because a company all of a sudden felt like they

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Speaker 2: were liable right or they were legally could be held responsible.

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Speaker 2: So it was almost as if the woman who was

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Speaker 2: trying to tell her truth and improved the culture all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden became kind of the lightning rod or

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Speaker 2: the problem, and it was story after story after story.

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Speaker 2: So I think at the highest level, at the simplest level,

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Speaker 2: I think we need new processes and new ways we

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Speaker 2: report racism. The reporting doesn't work. And also the people

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Speaker 2: sitting in the seats taking in the stories, what I

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Speaker 2: found is a lot of them are white leaders and

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Speaker 2: they don't necessarily understand racism. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: back and forth with that, it's not that bad, and

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Speaker 2: I don't really know what you're talking about. And so

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Speaker 2: sometimes in those cases, what I'm hearing is we need

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Speaker 2: outside folks to do that work. We need outside representatives,

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Speaker 2: we need outside investigators until companies can kind of catch up,

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Speaker 2: put the right people in the seats and understand what

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Speaker 2: to do. So it's not a legal liable issue. It's

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Speaker 2: a different sort of conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really doesn't feel safe to go to HR

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Speaker 1: anymore at all. It hasn't for a long time. There's

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Speaker 1: this lack of trust. And if companies think, okay, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty happened, and you have a bunch of town halls

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Speaker 1: or group webinars or group zooms where you kind of

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Speaker 1: let you just like color, people of color, tell us

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Speaker 1: how you're feeling. If you've got you know, senior leaders

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Speaker 1: who are attending those calls and for half an hour

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Speaker 1: listening to people, and then oh, it doesn't seem that bad.

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Speaker 1: People here seem to you know, but they don't trust

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Speaker 1: you enough to actually tell the truth in that half

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Speaker 1: hour zoom session. The trust isn't there. And I think

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Speaker 1: that you've touched on that, you know, a a in

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Speaker 1: a way that I'm just like, oh, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: You know what if we take that reporting structure outside

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Speaker 1: of the company and we say, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: trust your manager or HR to handle your complaint, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna give it to this third party, and then maybe

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Speaker 1: it's even anonymized in some way. I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: make us feel safer putting our next out there, because

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Speaker 1: it's it's not a lot of upside, as you as

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Speaker 1: you've seen in your work, not a lot of upside

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Speaker 1: being the squeaky wheel sometimes. And you may think when

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Speaker 1: you get to a more senior level, like you said,

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Speaker 1: it gets easier, like your voice has more weight. But

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to think back now. Once I got to

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Speaker 1: like the senior director level and I was on track

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Speaker 1: to become a VP, the expectation immediately. I remember when

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Speaker 1: I was I asked my manager at the time, my

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Speaker 1: boss's boss, like, so I want to become a VP's

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Speaker 1: what do I what do I gotta do? Tell me

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Speaker 1: how it works. And one of the you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the I forget how many parts of the plan

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Speaker 1: to get me on the VP track. One of them

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Speaker 1: was demonstrating that I could work with the other department

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Speaker 1: heads and creating projects, and one by one it was

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Speaker 1: a white dude after a white dude, and learning how

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Speaker 1: to deal with those personalities and work in those rooms

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Speaker 1: and to feel like in order for me to get ahead,

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Speaker 1: they had to endorse me, you know, it made it

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Speaker 1: even more challenging, like this is not my target audience,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And I had found my

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Speaker 1: safe space, and I had and I had gotten very

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Speaker 1: far in my in my corner of the company. But

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Speaker 1: when I had to start reaching outward to those other

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Speaker 1: department heads, it was it was then when I was

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Speaker 1: like feeling that sense of do I belong here? Do

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Speaker 1: I want to be here? Is this really where I want?

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: And then we get to the feelings of guilt, like

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Speaker 1: you said, when you are the only one and it's

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Speaker 1: time and you realize it's time for you to move on.

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Speaker 1: So can you talk about that when we realize it's

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Speaker 1: no longer where we want to be? How do you

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Speaker 1: what kind of advice do you have for women who

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Speaker 1: are thinking, well, shoot, if it's not me, who's going

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Speaker 1: to be here to champion? You know, women of color

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Speaker 1: here represent us?

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Speaker 2: I think the most surprising thing I found in all

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Speaker 2: the women and I continue to work with is our

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Speaker 2: sense of responsibility, and it's deep and it's there for

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Speaker 2: women who even may think it's not there. And responsibility

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Speaker 2: to our communities, to our families. You know, I interviewed

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Speaker 2: a lot of immigrant women, for example, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: my parents are immigrants to this country, and the story

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Speaker 2: of sacrifice, right and how much my parents gave up

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Speaker 2: was like a constant topic of conversation. So that sense

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Speaker 2: of responsibility is different for different groups, but it's really ingrained,

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Speaker 2: I think for a lot of the women of color

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Speaker 2: I interviewed, and so a lot of them will realize

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Speaker 2: I think somewhat, you know, halfway through, let's just call

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Speaker 2: it halfway through, that this is maybe not a culture

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Speaker 2: that I can thrive in, This is not maybe working

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Speaker 2: for me. But I got to continue pushing. And a

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Speaker 2: lot of women of color, I think, struggle because we've

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Speaker 2: one been told to be grateful for the opportunity, and

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Speaker 2: so we're confused. I think, to your point, we feel guilty.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of us feel like our work

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Speaker 2: is getting to the seat and opening it up for others,

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Speaker 2: and you know, what does that really mean for us personally,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of us have been taught to sacrifice,

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Speaker 2: and so I think it's all really difficult for me.

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Speaker 2: It came down to I had known for a while

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Speaker 2: that the lifestyle that I had was not conducive for me.

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Speaker 2: So I started to get sick. That's kind of a

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Speaker 2: very long story short and I don't mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: small small things. I mean every week it was like

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Speaker 2: a new symptom, to the point that I was probably

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Speaker 2: dealing with twenty or thirty symptoms. I'd been to fourteen doctors.

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Speaker 2: I tell a story in the book, I've been to

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Speaker 2: fourteen doctors, and they all agreed there was something wrong

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Speaker 2: with me. You know, some of them related it to

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Speaker 2: age I turned forty, like maybe that's what had happened.

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Speaker 2: But they agreed something was happening. And I was at

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Speaker 2: my fourteenth doctor and she looked at me and she said,

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Speaker 2: we can keep running tests, or I can tell you

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Speaker 2: what I think you already know. And when I tell

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Speaker 2: the story, I always say like I had brought my

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Speaker 2: suitcase to the appointment.

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Speaker 3: Because I was a doctor.

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Speaker 2: I saw when I traveled, because I lived on a plane.

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Speaker 2: I did three cities a week in the nature of

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Speaker 2: the job that I had, and so she's already judging me, like,

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Speaker 2: why is this woman bringing her suitcase to a doctor's appointment?

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Speaker 2: And she said, I really think your job is making

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Speaker 2: you ill. I think your job is killing you. I

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Speaker 2: think you need to really do something else. My fourteenth

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Speaker 2: doctor and you know doctor I saw when I traveled,

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Speaker 2: and she asked me three life change of questions that

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Speaker 2: were profound, I think for anybody, but I think especially

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Speaker 2: for women of color. She said, what would you do

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Speaker 2: if you didn't do a big job like this? Her

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Speaker 2: second question to me was do you feel like you

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Speaker 2: have to do a big job to be worthy? And

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Speaker 2: her third question was don't you see your worthy being you?

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Speaker 2: And I think part of my struggle was I'd been

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Speaker 2: taught that, you know, some of my worthiness, a lot

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Speaker 2: of my worthiness came from performing, came from doing more,

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Speaker 2: came from showing up, came from succeeding. That was a

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Speaker 2: lot of what I had been taught, I think, especially

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Speaker 2: from my immigrant family. And it was a real struggle

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Speaker 2: to walk away from that life, to walk away from

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Speaker 2: the security of what that brought, and to really question

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Speaker 2: this is something I still want to do and the

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Speaker 2: most shocking thing of all of the women I spoke

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Speaker 2: with is I think a lot of us are sick

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Speaker 2: in ways that we don't talk about. So two out

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Speaker 2: of three women of color I interviewed were sick with

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Speaker 2: these what I call mysterious symptoms, right, so, stomach pains,

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Speaker 2: skin rashes, headaches, fertility issues, adrena fatigue, and I have

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Speaker 2: a long list, but they're these things that I think

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Speaker 2: are these growing symptoms, but things that doctors can dismiss

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Speaker 2: and tell us they're not that big a deal, but

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Speaker 2: they really affect us, and a lot of what I believe,

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Speaker 2: and I talk to a number of doctors, I think

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Speaker 2: it comes from not being seen and heard in systems,

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Speaker 2: not really feeling supported, and to your point, from adapting

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Speaker 2: and fitting in and staying longer than we should. So

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Speaker 2: I think these are really important conversations we have to have,

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Speaker 2: like when do you stay and when do you go?

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Speaker 2: When is a culture not working for you? And when

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Speaker 2: is it causing more.

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Speaker 3: Trauma or harm?

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Speaker 2: And when is it okay to give yourself permission to

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Speaker 2: walk away? I think those are real big questions for

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Speaker 2: women of color.

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Speaker 1: Ah, God, I can't imagine how terrifying that must be

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Speaker 1: to feel like all these the physical manifestation of that isolation,

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Speaker 1: and you know the fact that our work really can

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Speaker 1: make us ill. I remember my mom. My mom had suffered.

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Speaker 1: You know, she was a single mom for a long

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Speaker 1: time and it was always very stressful. She you know,

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Speaker 1: the end of her career came from like an illness

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Speaker 1: that was really tied to mental strain, and it was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: twenty years of you grinding out to make things work

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Speaker 1: and your body has revolted. So it's not even a

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Speaker 1: matter of sometimes just it's about our physical safety too

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Speaker 1: as much as our mental safety. To recognize that. All right,

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Speaker 1: I am loving this conversation with our incredible guests. Deep

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Speaker 1: up per shot them on. I'm going to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break. I will be right back with Deepa. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, do not forget to check out her website.

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Speaker 1: It's deepaperu dot com. Check the show notes for a

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Speaker 1: link to get her book and find out all about information.

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Speaker 1: We will be right back. All right, ba fam, I

436
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: am back with my guests today. Deep up per shot

437
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 1: them on. Here we go, let's get back to our conversation.

438
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,199
Speaker 1: I feel like one of the things that has to

439
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 1: happen too to make you feel safe, excuse me, And

440
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,439
Speaker 1: a decision to leave is even to recognize I mean

441
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,919
Speaker 1: leaving for you as entrepreneurship and writing a book and

442
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 1: all of that, and hopefully a really long vacation hopefully

443
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:46,400
Speaker 1: took some time off to us.

444
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, as as I spent eight months in BEBT,

445
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 2: so my symptoms actually grew to a point where I

446
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 2: couldn't listen anymore. It sounds like similar to your mother,

447
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,120
Speaker 2: where my body was just screaming like get out, it's

448
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 2: time because I wasn't listening right, it was my entire

449
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,360
Speaker 2: identity and it took me a long time to leave

450
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 2: because of that sense of responsibility. But yeah, I did

451
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 2: take a break.

452
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: And it was hard for me as her daughter to

453
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 1: even see her like that and to even for my

454
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 1: own mind like mom is not okay, but she's always okay.

455
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: We always just pushed through. It was really challenging. That's

456
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 1: like a whole other topic for another show. Yes, but absolutely,

457
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,959
Speaker 1: but even to hear stories from women who are experiencing

458
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 1: a joyful work environment, who are thriving, and to see

459
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 1: that there are opportunities elsewhere, it does not have to

460
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 1: be this way. Everywhere and that there's examples, and that's

461
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 1: where it comes back to, like getting to know other people,

462
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 1: other women, especially you know, in your industry, who are

463
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 1: working places and look for the ones who are happy

464
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,919
Speaker 1: and thriving and see how you can get there because

465
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,639
Speaker 1: it may it may not be you, it may be

466
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 1: the culture that you're in, but you can rescue yourself,

467
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 1: you know, and get yourself out of it. And I

468
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, our mutual friend now I can

469
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 1: call her friend, Rachika Tolshian. She was on the show

470
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, and she and I were

471
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: talking about how, you know, it is that perception that

472
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 1: I have to just grin and bear it. You know

473
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 1: that this is what it's going to be, so let's

474
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: just get used to it. But no, no, you can

475
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,119
Speaker 1: get out and there's other places. It may not be entrepreneurship,

476
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: like it's not for everyone, but like, what are the signs,

477
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, if you were going back into corporate America. Now,

478
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: I know that you're not on that path right now,

479
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: but if you were, what would you be looking for,

480
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, signs that this is a safe space for me. Yeah.

481
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 2: One of my pieces of advice is to reach out

482
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 2: to people. I mean similar to what we did for

483
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: the dinners, where we just called called people or message

484
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: people on LinkedIn. I think it's okay, and we're seeing

485
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: more women. If I'm seeing more women of color, do

486
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: this to just reach out to people at the company

487
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: at their level below more senior and just say is

488
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 2: this a woman of color friendly place? And people often

489
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,160
Speaker 2: ask me like, well, people tell them. I think now

490
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: people will you know, like don't come here right now,

491
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: or that department is notorious, So ask like ask, you know,

492
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,200
Speaker 2: ask your sisters. I think we'll share more. I also

493
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: think looking at you know, traditional places like glassdoor and

494
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 2: other places where there reviews and there's more online information

495
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 2: than there has ever been before, and I think that's

496
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 2: okay to ask as well.

497
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 3: I think also talking about.

498
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,639
Speaker 2: The resources you need to be successful. I mean, if

499
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: we're talking about senior women, you could ask for things

500
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 2: like coaches and external support. So negotiate those things as

501
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 2: you kind of land your deal, because if you know,

502
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: like a culture, you're going to be one of the

503
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 2: only I think that's an okay thing to say. I need,

504
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: you know, I just want to make sure I'm supported

505
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 2: and I have what I need to succeed. I also

506
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 2: think this is a little bit of you know, when

507
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 2: I first wrote the book, it's funny like the title

508
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: wis day or Go, And people tell me you can't

509
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 2: be telling everyone to go, although two years later maybe

510
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 2: I can, right. I think we are a place where

511
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 2: everyone's asking, you know, what do they really want to do?

512
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: What's the space that work takes up in our life?

513
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 2: And I think it's okay to say that certain companies

514
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 2: are not conducive or supportive for women of color, just period,

515
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: end of sentence.

516
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 3: They are not.

517
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: And so many of the women of color are going

518
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: and creating their own companies that I know, because they're

519
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: trying to create different cultures that are friendly for us.

520
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: And so I also think that is a real thing.

521
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 2: And so it's a little bit of making sure not

522
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 2: only the companies friendly, but the department and the person

523
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 2: you're going to be working for is also to your point, right,

524
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: you kind of share this in your own story, like

525
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,400
Speaker 2: that person really influences your day to day and how

526
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: it feels, and so asking questions about that person is

527
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: also something that can be helpful and insightful and important

528
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: to do too.

529
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I accidentally want a little baby viral on TikTok

530
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: because I shared a video and it was like three

531
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: questions you should ask during an interview, And it was

532
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: meant to be kind of jokey about how companies will

533
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: they'll do things like make June teenth a company holiday,

534
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 1: and they'll appoint a head of inclusion of diversity. But

535
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: if you ask them so, how many women of color

536
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: are at the VP level or above? And then things

537
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: get really quiet and awkward, and I started, I really

538
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 1: didn't start incorporating that into the questions I asked in

539
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 1: my last year of corporate America, who knows? Maybe I'll

540
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: go back who knows? But and I encourage women to

541
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: ask that, And some of the responses, where can you

542
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: ask that? Is this even seen as an okay question?

543
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know, the fact that we're asking,

544
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: And if you're coming in at at a senior level

545
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: like that VP or above, I mean the fact that

546
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: you were asking. I feel like recruiters should know that.

547
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: You know, it's going to become as important. I feel

548
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: like to have stats to share on how successful diverse

549
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: employees are. It's going to become as important to have

550
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: those stats as it is to have unlimited PTO and

551
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: free lunch.

552
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 2: I can't really agree. I just did a conversation. You know,

553
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: I get called by recruiters all the time, and I

554
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 2: usually pass them to other people because, like you, I

555
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: am not looking at the moment.

556
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 3: But that was one of my questions.

557
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 2: I said, before I refer another woman of color, can

558
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: you tell me how many you know senior women of color?

559
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: Or can you tell me these three questions? Right?

560
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 3: How many there are?

561
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: You know?

562
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: Where does the chief inclusion officer report into? I mean

563
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: it sounds like similar questions. You ask, like you know,

564
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 2: you know what is what is the entry level?

565
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 3: And what you know?

566
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: I asked a question about mid level, and the recruiters said,

567
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 2: I can't answer any of those questions.

568
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: Those are good questions.

569
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: Well, I said, I'm not going to give you another

570
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: woman of color's name unless you can come back to

571
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: me with those answers. You know, that could be just

572
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: maybe you didn't ask. But if the company doesn't have

573
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: that information, then I don't know that I'm going to

574
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: refer a friend or a sister like that makes no

575
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 2: sense either. So I think those are all real things.

576
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: I think the other part I want to just say

577
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: is there's also you know, I have a line in

578
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: the book, and I've really spent a lot of time.

579
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 3: So I spent eight months off.

580
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: Really figuring out if I could go back, Like if

581
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 2: I was healthy, did I want that to be my identity?

582
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: There's a lot tied.

583
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 2: Into like being a partner was my entire identity, and

584
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: I'd sacrificed a lot to get to that seat. But

585
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: I realized I probably if I was going to go back,

586
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 2: would do the job differently. And I think that's also

587
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 2: really important to talk about that. I think there are

588
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 2: ways that we can also perform in roles and to

589
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: your point, ask more questions, do more things. I wouldn't

590
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 2: probably go back and do that job and give it

591
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: as much of myself as I had. I would have

592
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: set clearer boundaries. I would have maybe not conformed on

593
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: certain behavior we're early on, it didn't feel like a

594
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: big deal, you know. Maybe again for me, it was

595
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: a lot of just personal time and how much I sacrificed,

596
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: and you know, how my priorities and how I prioritize things,

597
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: I might make bigger boundaries, and I think had I

598
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 2: started that early, it wouldn't have been such a surprise

599
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: to do it later, but it is a hard thing

600
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 2: to do to just show up at a senior level

601
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, then you're setting boundaries. So

602
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: I think this is a little bit of teaching all

603
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 2: of us to do it earlier. And to your point,

604
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:18,959
Speaker 2: if you know early on you can't do that, then

605
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: maybe that's not the right place to go because you

606
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 2: know you're being set up for sacrifice early on. Yeah.

607
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's maybe not even a question of and

608
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: this is harder for a recruiter to answer, but okay,

609
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: so if you have a bunch of women of color

610
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: at the VP level above, how many of those women

611
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: are happy? And that's not a question you can really

612
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: get from a recruiter. You have to talk to other women.

613
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: And I think, well, I have a couple of thoughts,

614
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: but I feel like even reaching out if you see

615
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: women of color, you know, thank goodness for LinkedIn, even

616
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: just reaching out and saying, hey, I'm actually considering a

617
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: role at your company. I would love to have a

618
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: chat for fifteen minutes, just ask about your experience and

619
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 1: try to get some candid insights into how women there

620
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: are doing and are they happy? Because I think what

621
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 1: I think is beautiful about you know, up and coming

622
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: career women is that we are not as accepting of

623
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: that cut throat sacrifice everything, you know, claw and scratch

624
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: away the top lifestyle. We want a softer life. We

625
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: want success and wealth, and we don't want to have

626
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: to sacrifice our mental, physical health, our family, our interests,

627
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: our passions, you know what I mean. And I think

628
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: for those of us who have kind of seen it,

629
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean you certainly too. I mean you look back

630
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: even now and you say for a twenty year career,

631
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: like okay, I would go back and do things differently.

632
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: I would hope for women approaching their career today that

633
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: they could listen to that advice, take it, but not

634
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: think that they have to settle for less, that they

635
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: have to not go for those top positions. It's just

636
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: going for them, but recognizing and putting those boundaries in

637
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: place so that you don't have to sacrifice yourself necessarily

638
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: along the way to get there.

639
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: I think a lot of you know what I found.

640
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: You know, I talk about personal power. That's what the

641
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: book is about.

642
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: It.

643
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: It is all these women who said, I don't want

644
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: that kind of power. I want to do it differently,

645
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: but we've not been taught always how to do it differently.

646
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: And some of this is realizing for ourselves what our

647
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: boundaries are. What do we need to be healthy and happy?

648
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 2: Like what is it that we want and we need?

649
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: And we've never I think, been given permission to ask

650
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 2: those questions of ourselves sometimes.

651
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 3: And we haven't. Really we don't know how to do that.

652
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: So it's really I think, in some cases, before you

653
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: go into your next job, before you go into your

654
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: next thing, sitting down and making a list like what

655
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: made you happy in your last job, what don't you want?

656
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: What do you want more of? What is truly going

657
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: to make you thrive? And then you know, finding ways

658
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 2: to ask those questions in a really different way during

659
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: the interview. But this is so much of I think

660
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: us knowing what we need and want and then finding

661
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: ways to make sure we get what we need and

662
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: want and then it's okay to need and want things.

663
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: I mean mean, that's really where we have to start,

664
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: because I think a lot of the women that I interviewed,

665
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: we're not taught that, you know, We're just taught to

666
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: push through and and survive and do more and work

667
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: four times as hard as right comes up so many times.

668
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: But I think it's a different Like we're asking you questions.

669
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: We don't want to just keep doing that. It's not

670
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: good for us and it's not good for the next generation.

671
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: So how do we start to do power differently? How

672
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: do we start to set boundaries now so that we

673
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 2: can change work so that we get more to the many, right,

674
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: not just the fuse that. I think that's really what

675
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: the work is right now.

676
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of chuckling in my head right now

677
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: because my baby cousin lives with me. She's my she's

678
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: my mother's helper, she's my just everything. She was my

679
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: assistant for a hot minute. Not a great one, but anyway,

680
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: So but she got, she got because she knows me

681
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: too well anyway. But she just got a new job

682
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: as an executive assistant to a mom and pop fashion

683
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: label in our area. And I remember she's only done

684
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: the job for two weeks. And over the weekend she

685
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: came to me and she had these big scary eyes

686
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: and she's like, Mandy, is this what it's like? My

687
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: boss just texted me. It's eight o'clock on a Saturday.

688
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: He texted me. He texted me, I don't want to

689
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: take text on the weekends. And I was said, well,

690
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: you know what, but you don't respond to that text

691
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: until eight thirty am on Monday, which is usually when

692
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: she gets into work. And I was just like really

693
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: intense with her, like if you give me your phone,

694
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: do not respond to that text. And I was like

695
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: this this, and I was She was like, calm down,

696
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: but I was like, this is this is when it happens.

697
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: This is when you stop, you know, you don't put

698
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: a barrier in your way, and then two years from

699
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: now you're like, he's he's showing up on your front door,

700
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, with a work emergency and you don't know

701
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: how your life became this way. But yeah, I'm good

702
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: for her generation, you know, the Generation Z or whatever

703
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: she is, allennial who are kind of starting to get

704
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: in it, starting to get it. But I think we

705
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: still need one another to like check each other when

706
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: we when we start to forget, you know, what's really

707
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: important and what really matters. Yeah, yeah, you know.

708
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 3: Because I did.

709
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: I did talk to I call them less tenured women.

710
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: I did talk to that generation. It's interesting. I think

711
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: they know more than we knew like that that they

712
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: want a different life and that they want to set

713
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: those boundaries. What's interesting is they don't know to your point,

714
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: if they can, and so I think more of us

715
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: need to say, yeah, don't answer that phone, you know,

716
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: don't text back right now, Wait till monday. It's okay.

717
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: I think they want to do it differently, but they

718
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: need the encouragement and the permission to do it differently.

719
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: So it's still there. I don't think they're fully there

720
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: where they're not going to respond. I think they know

721
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: maybe there's a different choice, but we need to help

722
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: them or remind them or you know, implore upon them.

723
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: Don't respond a Saturday night, Wait till monday. So what

724
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: you did is what we need to do more of.

725
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: And mentorship, like I mean, I think that that is

726
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: such a missing piece from so many companies, is when

727
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time trying to recruit more

728
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: diverse talent, but then who's kind of taking them under

729
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: their wing and helping show them a healthy way of

730
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: succeeding in a healthy way of moving through the company,

731
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: and what sort of systems do you have in place

732
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: to support them. That is a huge missing piece and

733
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: I think some companies, maybe few and far between, are

734
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: are doing it. But if you're at a place where

735
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: maybe you feel like you don't have that kind of support,

736
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: then take it on yourself to find those support systems,

737
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: to find those programs. Like Dipa said, oh man, I

738
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: used to love making my company pay for like executive

739
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: leadership seminars and coaching and all kinds of stuff. They'll

740
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: say yes, especially if they're like, oh, I don't have

741
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: to do this myself. I can just give you five

742
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: thousand dollars and problem solved, you know, let them spend

743
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: their money on it. That's how I feel.

744
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

745
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: I also think we can be peersty you know, coaches

746
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: and peers for each other. I think that's also part

747
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: of the magic and what we're seeing. So, you know,

748
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: information is only a year old, and I may have

749
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: shared this when we chatted, but just a quarter into

750
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: our programming, we found that twenty five percent of our

751
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: women ask for bigger jobs or more money or left

752
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: their roles as a result of seeing others kind of

753
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: stand in their power. And it wasn't anything magical that

754
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: Ron and I were teaching. It was just they saw

755
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: each other do it. And they're like, well, if she

756
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: can do it, then I'm going to do it. And

757
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: there's something to that. And because we're so isolated, because

758
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: we're one of the onlies in our companies, we don't

759
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: get to see other examples and other women of color

760
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: asking their worth and standing in their space and all

761
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: of those things. And so I think it's also to

762
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: your point. I think we need each other to just

763
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 2: just to be reminded of that too.

764
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: Hell's yeah, well, where can people find out more about you,

765
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: Deepa and find out about information and the book and

766
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: all that good stuff.

767
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my website's probably the best place because everything's there,

768
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: so Deepa peru d e E p A p U

769
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: r u dot com, the information about the book and

770
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: the wait list for information. We interview all women, not

771
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: that we are, you know, trying to sort through, but

772
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: we just want to make sure that the women that

773
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: we have part of the community know how to hold

774
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 2: space for each other and can make space for others.

775
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: And so we will set up a time to meet

776
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: you and from there move you forward. If this is

777
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: something you're.

778
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: Interested in exciting, I love it.

779
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: Deepa.

780
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining Brown Ambition and thank

781
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: you for all of the incredible work you're doing. I'm

782
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: so happy that you were able to rescue yourself and

783
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: get to a healthier place and share your many gifts

784
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: and talents with us, because clearly we've all been dying

785
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: for a voice like yours, and I'm just so happy

786
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: that you've shared it with Brown Ambition.

787
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me, and thank you

788
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: for the space you hold. We need more people to

789
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 2: have conversations like.

790
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 3: This, so thank you.

791
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: All Right, ba fam? Was that a great throwback or what?

792
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: It was? Such a fun trip down memory lane? Now

793
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: make sure to check us out. We air Brown Ambition

794
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Submit a question you could

795
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: be answered during our baqas on Friday. You can hit

796
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 1: us up at Brian Ambisson Podcasts on Instagram or email

797
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 1: us Brandambisson Podcast at gmail dot com, tag us, share

798
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 1: the show and tell a friend to tell a friend.

799
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: Until next time, by ba Fam