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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and earlier this week, or if you're

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Speaker 1: listening to this podcast months or years after it came out,

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Speaker 1: the episode right before this one is an interview with

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Speaker 1: Jessica Bennett, who wrote the book Feminist Fight Club, which

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Speaker 1: is a guide to a sexist workplace, and of course

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Speaker 1: it addresses office attire because there are so many gender

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Speaker 1: politics wrapped up with our workplace dress codes. Um, there's

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Speaker 1: actually another episode that we recorded quite some time ago

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Speaker 1: now about uh female lawyers dress codes in particular, this

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Speaker 1: can be a challenge line for a lot of women,

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Speaker 1: especially if you have a body shape that accentuates your

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Speaker 1: breasts in your butt that it can be challenging to

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Speaker 1: dress quote unquote appropriately for the workplace and get taken seriously.

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Speaker 1: And way back in the day when women were first

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Speaker 1: trying to make it to a cubicle, already, pants suits

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Speaker 1: seemed like one of the only ways to do that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a way to sort of as inconspicuously as

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Speaker 1: possible enter the boys club that was the American office,

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Speaker 1: or really any office and it seems like this presidential

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Speaker 1: election in is really a pant suit heavy election because

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Speaker 1: you got Hillary Clinton running and Hillary is famous for

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Speaker 1: now and totally embraces the pants suit. Yeah, it's part

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Speaker 1: of her brand if you go on her UH store.

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Speaker 1: On her site, she even has a pant suit T shirt.

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Speaker 1: The pants sold separately, but it's just like a T

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Speaker 1: shirt that looks like one of her blazers. It's even

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Speaker 1: got a little Hillary brooch on it. When she first

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Speaker 1: got on Twitter years ago, her bio included pants suit aficionado. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Her first Instagram photo was from July four and it

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Speaker 1: was her trying to pick between a red, white or

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Speaker 1: blue pant suit. And Megan Garber wrote about this over

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Speaker 1: at The Atlantic, because of course, if there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a pant suit think piece, it's that The Atlantic. Um.

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Speaker 1: But Hillary Clinton has received, as you well know if

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Speaker 1: you've listened to our episode about her, has received so

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Speaker 1: much scrutiny over her wardrobe ever since she first came

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Speaker 1: into the public eye and Arkansas, and essentially what the

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Speaker 1: American public has told Hillary Clinton for decades now is

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Speaker 1: that we don't like anything she wears. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: either trying too hard, or it's too frumpy, it's too masculine,

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Speaker 1: and it's too head bandy. I really don't understand all

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Speaker 1: of the pan to scrunchy to scrunchy scrunchy gate, although

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Speaker 1: ps I did spot some scrunches on the subway last

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Speaker 1: week in New York. Dude, everything comes back in fashion,

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Speaker 1: but yeah. Garba writes about how Hillary's pants suit is

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Speaker 1: basically an effort to be both defiant, she says, and conciliatory.

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Speaker 1: So I'm defiant and then I am a woman wearing

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Speaker 1: pants a pant suit. I'm power dressing. But it's also

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Speaker 1: a way of saying, hey, we don't have to talk

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Speaker 1: about my clothes every single time, because if I literally

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Speaker 1: wear a pant suit every time I come out, eventually

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Speaker 1: that headline is going to get a real tired. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's like someone thinking they're fresh by writing something about

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's hair, right, Like it's it's just the same

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Speaker 1: to pay we know. So it's not only though the

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Speaker 1: pant and the blazer. Yes I did do the Stacy

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Speaker 1: London singular pant right there. But also Megan Garber notes

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Speaker 1: how the neckline of her blouses have also risen, particularly

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Speaker 1: since two thousand seven, when somehow it became headline news

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Speaker 1: even talked about on Meet the Press that week that

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Speaker 1: then Senator Hillary Clinton or something that showed hint of cleavage.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, a woman with breaths. It's like the

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Speaker 1: time Condoleeza Rice wore those knee boots. Oh god, I

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Speaker 1: still love this knee boobulous outfit. But yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: come on, it's like it's like people will talk about

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Speaker 1: anything other than policy. I mean, we've all seen the

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Speaker 1: the graphic that is the rainbow of Hillary Clinton in

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Speaker 1: all of her different pants suits, and I love it.

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Speaker 1: And it's actually the cover image on a friend's Pride

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Speaker 1: Week Facebook invitation. Love it. But Angela Merkel also has

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Speaker 1: her own similar graphic I've seen, like ranging from the

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Speaker 1: whitest white to the blackest black, in every shade of

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Speaker 1: crimson or plum in between. Well, in speaking of the colors,

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Speaker 1: you had to love the symbolism too. At the Democratic

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Speaker 1: National Convention when Hillary comes out for her acceptance speech

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Speaker 1: wearing a white pants suit New Beginnings and also white

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Speaker 1: was the color that suffragist swore. Oh yeah, it gives

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Speaker 1: me chills just talking about it. Now, I know, well,

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Speaker 1: because the suffragists colors were green, white, and violet because

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Speaker 1: g stood forgive, dew stood for women, and violet stood

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Speaker 1: for vote. Oh my gosh, I love that so much

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Speaker 1: like progressive women using acronyms like come on and colors

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Speaker 1: and colors and both the gendered and status symbols wrapped

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Speaker 1: up in pants suits of course, translates off of the

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Speaker 1: political trail as well. This is something that Samantha Sultzer

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Speaker 1: devoted her entire thesis to. In Yes, As Sultzer showed

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of business people um pictures of women

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Speaker 1: in eight outfits ranging from the business suit, the power

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Speaker 1: pants suit all the way to um like a knee

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Speaker 1: skirt with a cow necked blouse, and far and away

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Speaker 1: the fitted pants suit with blazer was viewed as the

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Speaker 1: most powerful, confident, modern, respected outfit of all um. The

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Speaker 1: second was like pants and an a in a top,

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Speaker 1: or pants and a button up blouse. It was like, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's professional or whatever. Um versus the fitted above the

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Speaker 1: kneaet skirt with a sleeved cal nick shirt, which was

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Speaker 1: perceived as the least respected, least conservative, least appropriate, and

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Speaker 1: least professional, which I think is so interesting because part

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Speaker 1: of this whole discussion is like, are you too masculine?

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Speaker 1: Are you too feminine? And all this tells me is

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Speaker 1: that like there's no winning because yeah, you know, you

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Speaker 1: wear a pant suit to a job interview or if

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Speaker 1: you're the boss or whatever. But we have this whole

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Speaker 1: history of whoever it is a boss or a fashion

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Speaker 1: magazine telling us that something is over, that it's unacceptable,

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Speaker 1: or it's it's the lay of the land. At the

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Speaker 1: law of the land, You've got to look like this

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Speaker 1: this one way or another. And so I just think

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Speaker 1: it's funny that this study is like pants it with

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Speaker 1: the blazers the only way to go when you've had

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Speaker 1: women like Hillary Clinton being slammed for pants suits for ever,

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Speaker 1: and that Caroline is why I prefer the office overall,

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Speaker 1: because it just confuses people. What would Grace Jones say?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, So yeah, when looking for power suits,

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Speaker 1: you know, first of all, you say pants suit, I

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Speaker 1: immediately think Hillary Clinton. I can't think of anybody else

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Speaker 1: when I hear power suit. I think the women of

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Speaker 1: the movie Working Girl. But then I think of Grace

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Speaker 1: Jones eighties phenom who just recently resurfaced in pop culture

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Speaker 1: because she released a memoir. Um but look for her

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Speaker 1: cover of her album Nightclubbing from the eighties, like she's

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Speaker 1: a bad ask and that is a power suit if

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen one. No one slays ablaze quite like

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Speaker 1: Grace Jones. That's a good way to put it. But okay,

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Speaker 1: so do we even have time? I mean, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about the eighties working girl Grace Jones. Do

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Speaker 1: we even have time to go back and over all

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Speaker 1: of fashion history to talk about the origin of suits?

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Speaker 1: We better make the time. We will make the time

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Speaker 1: because that's what this whole episode is dedicated to. Basically,

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Speaker 1: So where did suits even come from? Though? Well from

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Speaker 1: sumptuary laws kind of. So in six sixties, six old

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Speaker 1: King Charles the Second in England passes these sumptuary laws,

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Speaker 1: which are essentially regulating the types of food and clothing,

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Speaker 1: even furniture that people of various classes are allowed um

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Speaker 1: or required to wear or consume. So Charles old Old

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Speaker 1: Chuck the Second demands that dudes wear waistcoats, trousers and

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Speaker 1: ties like the French because I guess what, at the time,

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Speaker 1: like everyone's like, oh, well, you know, do as the

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Speaker 1: French do this, they seem cool. It's like dressing, you know,

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Speaker 1: in high school, like the popular kids. Something you can

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Speaker 1: try to you just yeah. To summed up centuries of

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Speaker 1: European history, I think I can hear the letters coming in,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, um, King Charles's fashion outlook basically evolved into

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Speaker 1: men's modern suits, which of course then evolved into women's

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Speaker 1: suits eventually. And art historian and Hollander, who wrote the

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Speaker 1: book Sex in Suits, talks a lot about how women's

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Speaker 1: fashion has followed men's from the big the fruit, through

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Speaker 1: all the makeup and curlers and heels and the visible

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Speaker 1: effort to look made up, to the modern, streamlined suited appearance.

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Speaker 1: And I've I've got to say, like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: how much of the Sex and Suits book you went through, Kristen.

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Speaker 1: I had to stop because it is written and I

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Speaker 1: really don't mean this to be insulting. And Hollander, if

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Speaker 1: you're listening, I have so much appreciation for your contribution

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Speaker 1: to art history and fashion history, but this book is

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Speaker 1: the text equivalent of someone sitting in an armchair with

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Speaker 1: a brandy in one hand and a cigarette dangling out

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Speaker 1: of a long cigarette holder. And the other it's very

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Speaker 1: like and then it's so so a book that might

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Speaker 1: make for a better podcast sounds like maybe just its

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Speaker 1: tone and its writing style is very very interesting. Um

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Speaker 1: but yeah. She She talks in her book about how

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Speaker 1: male dress, in her opinion, has always been essentially more

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Speaker 1: advanced than female dressed throughout fashion history, intended to lead

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Speaker 1: the way and set the standard to make the aesthetic

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Speaker 1: propositions to which female fashion responded. Uh. She says that

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Speaker 1: men's close since the Middle Ages have been more formally interesting,

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Speaker 1: though less innovated, and less conservative than women's and she

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Speaker 1: says that the invention of modern suits is a good

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Speaker 1: example of this trend. Well, and another trend along with

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Speaker 1: that that I think explains why guys have been the

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Speaker 1: fashion trend setters in a lot of ways. Men were

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Speaker 1: wearing hair bows and carrying handbags and wearing high heels

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Speaker 1: before women were is because you see women's fashion evolve

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Speaker 1: and skirts start to give way to more fitted clothing

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Speaker 1: and bifurcated garments that would eventually give way to pants.

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Speaker 1: Um as we are able to enjoy more mobility, right exactly,

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Speaker 1: so in the nineteenth century, we start to move around

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Finally we finally stand up from our

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Speaker 1: fainting couch um. And the evolution though doesn't start from

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Speaker 1: the bottom like Drake, but it starts at the top.

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Speaker 1: So European women started wearing tailored jackets with long skirts

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Speaker 1: for outdoor activities like riding, archery, and walking. And of

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Speaker 1: course I'm sure that writing was side saddle because a stride, No,

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Speaker 1: you're do you belong on the stage, just a common

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Speaker 1: woman riding a stride. But but I mean this is

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Speaker 1: kind of the first AaTh leisure, right, because women were

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Speaker 1: like they had to wear more fitted, you know things.

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Speaker 1: The blazer originated as sportswear, especially for women, but you've

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Speaker 1: got trend setters adopting these outfits for everyday where so

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Speaker 1: taking those bifurcated garments, taking those more fitted blazers and

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Speaker 1: tops with their button up blouses in their little lady ties.

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Speaker 1: And by nineteen o five this was the common outfit

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Speaker 1: for women. And one person who embodies this whole aesthetic

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Speaker 1: is a mid century French novelist named George Sand who

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Speaker 1: was born I'm on Tine Lucille Aurora Dupine. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and George Sand you know, she not only smoked in

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Speaker 1: public and renamed herself George. Well yeah, um, but she

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Speaker 1: left her husband, she took many a lover. But all

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Speaker 1: of this was fine. But she wore pants. That was

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Speaker 1: part of her whole persona. It's like that was almost

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Speaker 1: too much for people. The lovers. Well, all right, she's

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Speaker 1: French pants, come off anyway, but you put a suit

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Speaker 1: on there, and that's just that's crazy talk. Well, women

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Speaker 1: risked getting arrested if they wore pants in public up

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Speaker 1: until World War Two. Well, they risked offending people, that's

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Speaker 1: for sure. And this is another thing that Hollander writes about.

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Speaker 1: She says that this was a time, keep in mind

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Speaker 1: when sexual separateness was very intense, and by virtue of

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Speaker 1: the fact that sand wore these suits, she became an

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Speaker 1: erotic icon. Not just because you put on some pants

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Speaker 1: and a blazer, but because wearing these fitted, tailored clothes,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't covering up her curves, it wasn't disguising her

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Speaker 1: in some baggy suit. Hollanda writes that she looked even

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Speaker 1: more feminine in her tailored jacket and trousers. She looked

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Speaker 1: more sexy. Notably, Hollanda rights she did not cut her

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Speaker 1: hair or disguise her full figure. It was not drag

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Speaker 1: with the aim of illusion. She showed herself to be

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Speaker 1: interested in a female erotic life. She was a woman

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Speaker 1: about town, someone who wanted to get up and move

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Speaker 1: and leave the house and take lovers and smoke cigarettes. Um.

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Speaker 1: And here she was embracing this modern sexuality that was

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Speaker 1: normally reserved for men. Well. And the smoking cigarettes is

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Speaker 1: definitely part of that too, because um, that was something

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Speaker 1: that was very deviant for women to do. Um. And

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Speaker 1: that's why you know, flappers and the new woman of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties was somewhat liberated by smoking,

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Speaker 1: and especially smoking in public. We even talked about how

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Speaker 1: much is a freedom torch as a freedom And we've

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Speaker 1: also talked about how there were classes you could take,

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Speaker 1: like if today imagine if you could take a webinar

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Speaker 1: to show you how to smoke a cigarette correctly in public.

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Speaker 1: There were classes women would take for that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: whatever gets people to spend more money. But you know,

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Speaker 1: we talk about sexual fluidity today, we talk about gender

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Speaker 1: norms and dynamics today, but this was a thing in

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Speaker 1: the back of people's minds in the nineteenth century. Even

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Speaker 1: if they didn't have the language for it. Hollander writes

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Speaker 1: that quote sartorial borrowings from the other sex displayed an

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Speaker 1: awareness that sexuality is fluid, unaccountable, and even uncomfortable, not fixed,

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Speaker 1: simple and easy. And that's a dangerous concept in a

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Speaker 1: time when you totally had separate spheres that men and

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Speaker 1: women were expected to adhere to. And it's still dangerous

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Speaker 1: in many places still today. Now, of course, this kind

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Speaker 1: of cross dressing was common on stage for I mean,

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Speaker 1: since Shakespearean times. Um. But if we look at the

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventies, also in Paris, you have actress Sarah Bernhardt

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Speaker 1: who would gender bend on stage as Hamlet. In eighteen

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Speaker 1: she wore a custom made trouser suit that she called

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Speaker 1: her boy's clothes just so cute. That does sound really

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Speaker 1: cute and adorable. Um. And you know we mentioned how

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Speaker 1: that early athletisure became the trend of the day by

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Speaker 1: nineteen o five. Well, so let's look at this whole

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Speaker 1: suit explosion of the twentieth century. Uh. In nineteen ten,

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Speaker 1: the American Ladies Taylor's Association created what is known as

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Speaker 1: the Suffragettes suit. Did it look like Hillary Clinton's white

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Speaker 1: pants suit of the d and see um and along

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Speaker 1: with a blouse and jacket, it had an ankle length

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Speaker 1: divided skirt bifurcated garment that allowed the wear to take

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Speaker 1: long feminist strides. Yes, you take up that space on

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Speaker 1: the sidewalk. A few years later, we have Coco Chanel

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Speaker 1: of course, designing her first suit. But it's not a

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Speaker 1: pant suit. It's a fur trimmed jacket with a matching

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Speaker 1: long skirt. She wouldn't introduce her signature suit, which is

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Speaker 1: the knee link skirt and mold jacket, until the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. Yeah, what's funny about Chanel? So we talked

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Speaker 1: about her a lot in our color as Am episode

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Speaker 1: and our Tanning episode. Um, because she accidentally made tanning

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Speaker 1: popular or helped popularize it. She also accidentally made pants

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Speaker 1: in general fashionable, even though she's making skirt suits. Um.

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Speaker 1: She was at the beach and for modesty sake, rather

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Speaker 1: than changing into a bathing costume, she donned some pants. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and everybody was like, that's great, I love it. I

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Speaker 1: love what you're doing. Baby, I want to do it too.

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Speaker 1: But later she was quoted as saying she was actually

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Speaker 1: sad to see so many women at dinners wearing pants. Oh,

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Speaker 1: come on, cocoa, I know she's not. She's not quite

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Speaker 1: as progressive as we all would like to imagine. Not

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Speaker 1: buy any stretch. But then in N one you have

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Speaker 1: designer Marcel Roschas introducing the first wide shouldered suits with pants.

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Speaker 1: These were gray woold trousers for women. Um, and he

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Speaker 1: said that his inspiration was Balinese dancers costumes. So do

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Speaker 1: we have a little cultural appropriation happening? I think we do,

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Speaker 1: and I mean that echoes Paul French designer Paul Pourrat,

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Speaker 1: who's sort of credited with freeing women from their corsets

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Speaker 1: with his tunic style outfits over Harem pants. So you've

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Speaker 1: got a lot of well, in this case, I guess,

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Speaker 1: to male French designers appropriating silhouettes and designs from the East. Well,

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Speaker 1: and art historians can let us know whether this um

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Speaker 1: is probably a product of orientalism happening at the time,

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Speaker 1: an exoticism that you see in art and interior design

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Speaker 1: and also in things apparently like old school power suits.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know, And so following the trend. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, Italian designer Elsa Scaparelli designs a wool

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Speaker 1: pant suit with a brown wool jacket that had four

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Speaker 1: large buttons down the front and a pair of single

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Speaker 1: plate cuffed slacks. Sounds very basic, but this stuff was

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Speaker 1: pretty cutting edge, pretty dangerous, and as you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: not everyone was very excited. Uh. That same year and night,

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Speaker 1: teen thirty nine, in the Vogue, fashion editor Elizabeth Penrose

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Speaker 1: spoke out against women who would wear pants outside the workplace,

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Speaker 1: whether it was to your restaurant or even at home.

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Speaker 1: God forbids you wear comfortable pants at home, saying that

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Speaker 1: those women who quote pad around in hairy sweaters and

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Speaker 1: flannel bags on duty and off are letting themselves go

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Speaker 1: and other people down slackers in slacks. Damn Vogue Liz

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Speaker 1: so judging what is Liz relax in? You know, just

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Speaker 1: just imagine her alone in her house, like looking around

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Speaker 1: to see if everyone's gone, no one can see her,

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Speaker 1: and she picks up a pair of stretchy pants, puts

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Speaker 1: them on the delight that would wash over her. She

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Speaker 1: just has a bundling sack that she puts on. So,

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Speaker 1: of course we have to talk about the silver screen

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Speaker 1: and Marlina Dietrich bea us. She really helped popularize suits

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Speaker 1: for everyday women, because this is when we start to

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Speaker 1: see the rise of celebrity and tabloid culture and the

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Speaker 1: very real relationship today between celebrity fashions and what regular

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Speaker 1: James are wearing. So in the nineteen thirties, old Marlena Who,

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Speaker 1: by the way, if you listen to our episode on

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Speaker 1: the fetishizing of East Asian women, Marlene Dietrich was buds

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Speaker 1: with the super cool anime Wong, google her if you're

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Speaker 1: not familiar with who she is. So Dietrich who was

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Speaker 1: just a progressive gall in general. She sports the tucks

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Speaker 1: and a top hat, looks lawless in it in both

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Speaker 1: the Film's Morocco and Blonde Venus. And she was also

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Speaker 1: a pioneer of pant suits as streetwear, because why not,

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Speaker 1: You're already a badasst trailblazer I mean, and hello, Katherine Hepburn,

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Speaker 1: I mean, On screen and off, she was all about

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Speaker 1: the pants. Uh. In nineteen forty two the film Woman

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Speaker 1: of the Year, she donned a fabulous pants suit to

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Speaker 1: play a powerful uh and kind of single minded lady journalist,

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Speaker 1: and in nineteen forty nine, it's funny. Picture Goer magazine,

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Speaker 1: UH called her style kind of a smooth publicity move.

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Speaker 1: They said that that slack suit people weren't calling them

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Speaker 1: pants suits yet because I think pants still referred to underwear. Um.

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Speaker 1: The slack suit paid for itself several times over. For

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Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn got special mentioned in hundreds of different publications.

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Speaker 1: If she'd want to dress, her name would merely have

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Speaker 1: been listed among the fifty five other top stars. So like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's great, she's challenged. She would have been talked about

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Speaker 1: no matter what. But those pants. So that was the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine equivalent of Lady Gaga's meat dress, Like

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Speaker 1: she might have well just been wearing meat. Um. But

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Speaker 1: speaking of Katherine Hepburn's love of pants and how it's

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Speaker 1: central they really were to her life, they were not

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Speaker 1: a publicity stunt. Um. There is a great line in

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Speaker 1: her autobiography where she's talking about working with Dorothy Arsner,

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Speaker 1: who was the only female director in Hollywood for pretty

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Speaker 1: much all of the nineteen thirties, and she was a

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Speaker 1: total boss babe of pants and also just a total

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Speaker 1: boss babe in general. And really the only mentioned Hepburn

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Speaker 1: makes of her uh is that she met Arsner, who

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Speaker 1: of course was wearing pants, and she was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: she wore pants. We got along well. And then that

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Speaker 1: kind of just summed it up, you know, Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: pants meant something different back then. They signified that, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you and I are both going against the mainstream. It's

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Speaker 1: like spotting an other lady on a crowded subway wearing

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Speaker 1: a futurest female sweatshirt. That's exactly what it's like. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and you know, if we're still talking about cinema

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Speaker 1: um in the late fifties and early sixties, you don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily see as many pants suits making waves, but you

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Speaker 1: do see plenty of women in power suits on screen,

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Speaker 1: although they were definitely more skirt suits. Costume designer Edith Head,

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Speaker 1: who's massively famous and fashion history, created a whole slew

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Speaker 1: of sophisticated suits for Kim Novak in Vertigo and Tippy

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Speaker 1: Hedrin and Birds. Um the suits you created for Tippy

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Speaker 1: Hedrid and Birds it was the same suit, but like

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Speaker 1: six different versions, and each version had more damage from

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Speaker 1: the birds over the course of the movie. Well, in

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Speaker 1: that scene of watching her in that form fitting like

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Speaker 1: pencil skirt suit, having to run from the birds. Spoiler alert. Um,

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Speaker 1: I mean it heightens attention so much because you know

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Speaker 1: her mobility is limited. She could have used to buy

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Speaker 1: forcated garment. She really could have. Yeah, I mean that

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Speaker 1: was a power suit, but it needed to be a

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Speaker 1: little more powerful to allow her to run. Um And

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into the swinging sixties and power

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Speaker 1: suits of second wave feminism when we come right back

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Speaker 1: from a quick break. So as we talk about in

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Speaker 1: detail in our podcast all about the long March toward

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Speaker 1: women wearing pants, world War One and two were really

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Speaker 1: the tipping points. World War One initially got us wearing pants,

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Speaker 1: when like has happened later on with World War Two,

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Speaker 1: women stepped into filling when the guys went off to war.

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Speaker 1: But of course once it ended, you take the pants

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Speaker 1: off and put the skirt back on. But then once

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Speaker 1: this happens all over again in World War Two, it

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Speaker 1: really starts to stick. Probably thanks to celebral models like

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Speaker 1: Katherine Hepburn. Yeah, it's kind of a perfect storm of

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Speaker 1: pop culture and just real life. Um. So in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties around World War Two, you've got thirty seven

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Speaker 1: percent of American women now in the workforce, many, many

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Speaker 1: of those women filling those masculine industrial roles, so they

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Speaker 1: had to wear pants, I mean for safety and efficiency,

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Speaker 1: and those pants often belong to their husbands who had

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Speaker 1: gone off to wars. They would you know, nip and

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Speaker 1: tuck the pants at the waist or whatever. Um. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, separate from this industrial take on

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Speaker 1: fashion and having to go into the workplace in war

404
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Speaker 1: pants for safety, you also have a whole other group

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Speaker 1: of women who are power dressing at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and these are the Pachucas. So in the nineteen thirties

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Speaker 1: and warties um as many people might not be aware of,

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Speaker 1: there were anywhere from half a million to two million

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Speaker 1: people of Mexican descent who were forcibly deported from the US.

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Speaker 1: So anti Chicano, anti Mexican sentiment is raging at the time,

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Speaker 1: and you're seeing a lot of violence directed toward them,

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Speaker 1: particularly in California where you have higher populations they are.

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Speaker 1: So within this this leads to what are called the

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Speaker 1: zoot suit riots um because zoot suits, those big, kind

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Speaker 1: of exaggerated suits, were worn by a lot of the

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Speaker 1: guys in these communities, a lot of Chicano guys, a

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Speaker 1: lot of Mexican dudes, and the zoot suits started to

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Speaker 1: symbolize like their deviants. Ah, these they're just like troublemakers.

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Speaker 1: We don't want them around. And the Pachucas were the

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Speaker 1: women that we never hear about. There were the women

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Speaker 1: who hung out with their zoot suit guy friends, also

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Speaker 1: wearing transgressive clothes, particularly pants. Yeah. So I love this

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Speaker 1: element of Chicana history that I had not been aware

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Speaker 1: of before. Um. But these women, they would frequently be

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Speaker 1: wearing those like superstructured, big shouldered jackets as well that buttoned. Um.

426
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: Sometimes they would wear them over huge flowing pants. Sometimes

427
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: they'd wear them over skirts. But they totally freaked people

428
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: out just as much because they were defying gender roles

429
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: and American patriotic conformity around World War two. Um. And

430
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: so white Americans just like didn't know. I didn't know

431
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: what to think about this group of people. Oh, but

432
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: they slut shamed them. Oh my gosh, they slut shamed them. Um.

433
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: And there was also a piece recently over at broad

434
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: oddly linking uh modern day the modern day Chola subculture

435
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: to the pachucas. Um because the pachuca Is also had

436
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: sort of a rockabilly look. Yeah. Well, I mean if

437
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: you google, like literally, when you google pachuca is the

438
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: first thing that comes up is not some fascinating history

439
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: of this subculture. It's like Pachuca wear dot com. You know,

440
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: like you can buy the same thing with like you know,

441
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: mod cloth has a lot of those like forties and

442
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: fifties style dresses. It's the same kind of thing that

443
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: that it fits in with the rockabilly culture that's still

444
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: alive and well very easily. Yeah. So I mean, and

445
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: this is one way in which like fashion is really important.

446
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: It does matter because, especially for women and for you know,

447
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming people, clothing and in this case pants are

448
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: a form of protest and immediately movement, not protest at all,

449
00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: going to formal dinners unless you enjoy class privileges. Yeah,

450
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: very good point. Um. Yeah, because if you're if you're

451
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: wearing a certain outfit that someone deems inappropriate, and you're

452
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: a person of color or someone of a lower class,

453
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: you make it thrown out. But if you're a white lady,

454
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: I mean we see this with corn rows, afros, braids,

455
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: hair color, piercings, tattoos, the whole thing. Like if you

456
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: are a white lady, you tend to be called like

457
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: edgy cool at the forefront of fashion, but if you're

458
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: a person of color, you're somehow trashy and inappropriate. And

459
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: especially at this point to getting into the nineteen sixties,

460
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: when pants were still kind of daring for the everyday

461
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: woman to wear, even if you were white, you still

462
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: needed to be rich in order to really pull it off. Yeah,

463
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty four, here comes another French designer,

464
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: Andre Kurage, introducing slim, minimalist pants suits for women for

465
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: both day and evening, where until then women had basically

466
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: worn pants for just informal things unless you're marleing a

467
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: d trick and you're wearing a tax in a top hat.

468
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: You know. Now, isn't it interesting how we have up

469
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: until this point, really, aside from Cocoa Chanel, mostly men

470
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: as both the gatekeepers of our fashion but also to

471
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: the slut shamers of our fashion. That's how that works, Yeah,

472
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: that's how that works. We we want to see you

473
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: looking a certain way because that's how you're most attractive.

474
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: But when you look a certain way and you're attractive,

475
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: then you're going to be sled shamed. Yeah, I know,

476
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: it's a it's a catch twenty two snake eating itself

477
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: type of situation. Um. Two years later, in nineteen sixty six,

478
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Eve say Laurent debuted his infamous The Smoking Suit, which

479
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: is considered the first taxedo specifically made for women, and

480
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: it consisted of you know, tux parts, a dinner jacket,

481
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: trousers with a satin striped down the side, a white shirt,

482
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: black bet tie, and a commer bun. Because you've got

483
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: to you've got to complete that look. And Marjorie Joal,

484
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: who is a women's study professor at Roosevelt University, told

485
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: Vice that this was quote just top to bottom six. Yeah.

486
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: And so therefore, in nineteen six nine, you have New

487
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: York City socialite Nan Kimpner getting turned away from this

488
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: fancy restaurant because she was wearing smooking uh. And this

489
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: is a killer move. This is also coming from that

490
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: Vice article. Um. They write that after being denied service, Kimpner,

491
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: rather than putting up with being turned away because nobody

492
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: turns away Nan Kimpner, she just took her pants off,

493
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: walked back in the restaurant, wearing her jacket as a

494
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: mini dress. And she was let in because is that's

495
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: for a white, rich socialite New York City. That is

496
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: deemed okay, that's deemed appropriate. And the manager responded to

497
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: this whole hubbub by saying pants do not belong in

498
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: a restaurant any more than swimming suits. We will continue

499
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: our policy, boss, move nan. I mean, I don't know,

500
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: if someone kicked you out of a restaurant for wearing pants,

501
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: my first thought would not to be to take them off.

502
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean I would think it's spitefully. I'd be like,

503
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna go home one of

504
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: my stretchy pants. Call you ber it's it's been a day.

505
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: That's been a day. But we also have a shout out.

506
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty nine, conservative Illinois Representative Charlotte te Reid

507
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: who became the first woman to wear pants on the

508
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: floor of the U. S House of Representatives, and boy

509
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: did she get a lot of attention, specifically from the boys.

510
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: The Washington Post reported on this, of course, um and

511
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: noted how male members of Congress US flocked to catch

512
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: a glimpse of these revolutionary pants, which are really more

513
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 1: kind of like bill bottomed and thankfully, though uh, none

514
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: of the politicians that the Post interviewed seemed too scandalized

515
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: by this, but Representative Read really played off the whole thing.

516
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: She I don't think I think she's gonna flustered that

517
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: it became news because the only reason she wore them

518
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: was since it was the final day of the congressional

519
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: session before Christmas break, so kind of like how at

520
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: least at my high school, everyone would wear pajamas on

521
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: the last day of the finals. So she was like,

522
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: this is no big deal. I'm really not trying to

523
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: make waves here. And of course you never wore this

524
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: pants suit again, because speaking to The Washington Post, Read said,

525
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: I'm really quite serious about my service in Congress, and

526
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to do anything that seemed facetious. I

527
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: were following you, but then neither would I want to

528
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: do anything to take away from the femininity of the

529
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: women in the house, even though I think pants are

530
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: feminine looking. Come on, Charlotte, huh. It was like, it's funny.

531
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: It's like the accidental trailblazer being like, whoa, no, no, no, no,

532
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: I was just I was just dressed down. I'm still

533
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: I'm still a woman. Every Yeah, everybody was confused, like,

534
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: oh god, where did your gender go? Well? And also,

535
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean she's wearing not even a blazer over this.

536
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: It's like a double breasted jacket that comes down mid thigh,

537
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: so it's very conservative yeah. Um. And and again I

538
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: mean it's not like people were scandalized that she was

539
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: showing too much of her figure, um, but it was

540
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 1: more of a gender norm violation. How dare she indeed? Well,

541
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: I mean be also got to keep in mind the

542
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: context of the times, right, I mean, people who might

543
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: not have otherwise thought it was scandalous or gender bendy um,

544
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: might have been observing pop culture and social context and

545
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: what's going on at the time, which is, hello, second

546
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: wave feminism, and more and more women are sport and

547
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: pants because hello, they're more comfortable. They let me ride

548
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: a bicycle away from you, and things like title nine,

549
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 1: pasted in nineteen seventy two, gives you more more. If say,

550
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: your school does not allow you to wear pants, you

551
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: can be like no, no, no, no, no, you gotta

552
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: let me wear some pants. Yeah, title nine, Who do

553
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: It's about more than sports, It's about pants. It's about pants. Um.

554
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: And you start in the seventies seeing the office pants

555
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: suit as we think of it now, worn by these

556
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: professional women who were entering these male dominated spaces. For example,

557
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: a twenties six year old woman by the name aim

558
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: of Hillary Rodham who was photographed at Nixon's nineteen impeachment

559
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: hearing wearing a smart pants suit and looking very capable.

560
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: If I do say something myself, and it's notable that

561
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: you said that she looked capable in that pant suit, Caroline,

562
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: because that's something that Sara Tornt, who's a professor and

563
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: author of the book Fashion Talks Undressing the Power of Style,

564
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: echoed to Vice, basically saying that like, at that time,

565
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: if you wanted to be taken seriously as a businesswoman

566
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: or say as an up and coming lawyer like Hillary Rodham,

567
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: then you were expected to wear a pant suit, but

568
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: you were going to be criticized for trying to emulate

569
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: men because it was so derivative of men'swear. So, I mean,

570
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: this is when we get into the whole issue that

571
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: we still have today in terms of how masculine is

572
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 1: the professional normative. Yeah, I mean it's it's we're trending

573
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: away from that, but I mean they were the first

574
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: ones in there, so they've set how the professional language sounds,

575
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: what professional looks like. But this makes me want to

576
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: tear my hair out. Her quote sums up so much

577
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: that we're trying to get out in this episode, which

578
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 1: is like, Yeah, you've got to wear it to look

579
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: professional and like you belong, but don't wear it because

580
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: you look too much like a man and you're transgressing

581
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: gender norms. They might respect you as a business person,

582
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: but not trust you as a woman. Yeah, I don't know,

583
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: but jumping onto this criticism train. In nineteen seven, you've

584
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: got John T. Malloy who writes in his book The

585
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: Woman's Dress for Success Book that in most offices, the

586
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: pants suit is a failure outfit. If you have to

587
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: deal with men, even as subordinates, you are putting on trouble.

588
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: If you want to be a liberated woman, burn your

589
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: polyester pants suit, not your bra. The polyester pants suit,

590
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: he says, we'll keep you in corporate surfdom. Well, your

591
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: brock can help you up as well as hold you up.

592
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: What in the world, Oh yeah, oh yeah, I have

593
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: seen this book. Um, I actually have a copy of

594
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 1: The Men's Dress for Success Book on a coffee table

595
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: at home. It is less sexist than the Woman's Dress

596
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: for Success book. And really, all I have to say

597
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: to John T. Milloy is terrible advice to burn a

598
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: polyosrough suit because those flames, I'm gonna just get out

599
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: of control, out of control. Yeah. So his advice for women, um,

600
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: if you want to be taken seriously, yeah, emulate men

601
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: with a tailored blue or gray woolf suit, but make

602
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: sure it's with a skirt that covers the knee. Do

603
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: not wear pants, you slooty slut bags. So maybe uh,

604
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: taking a cue from John T. Molloy and realizing this

605
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 1: catch twenty two pants suit situation that women were facing

606
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: trailblazing into the workplace, particularly in the nineteen eighties, you

607
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: see the rise of kind of the working girl uniform

608
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 1: of still the skirt suit, but you're gonna have real

609
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: broad the shoulder pads to uh, to symbolize and power. Yeah,

610
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: one can be a bookshelf funnel once I keep your snacks. Yeah.

611
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: On the other, you got like power on top, feminine

612
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: on the bottom. That's right, kind of like a clothing

613
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: mullet or something. Yeah, don't don't worry, my ankles are

614
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: still here. Invisible, which would have gotten you slut shamed

615
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 1: in the Victorian era. Come on, for sure, there's no

616
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: winning um. So between nineteen eighty and n driven by

617
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: in particular power suit purchases because keep in mind, shoulder

618
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: pads had started to come into vogue back in the

619
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: late seventies, back when malloy was telling us to create

620
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: a freaking forest fire with our business suits. Sales of

621
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: women's suits rose by nearly six million units, which equated

622
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: to about a six hundred million dollar game for the

623
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: fashion industry. So suddenly the fashion industry is like, oh wait,

624
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: we can we can convince women to wear suits and

625
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: make money because of it, because it's an untapped resource marketing,

626
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: get marketing on the phone, and I mean, you've got

627
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: more women going into the office. This, this power seat

628
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: trend just follows the women to the office because from

629
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, the share of women in the workforce

630
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: screw to nearly half, and their share of management roles

631
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: rose from twenty to thirty six. So you've got more

632
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: women in the workplace, more women in charge. It's a

633
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: masculine dominated environment. You've got to look like men to

634
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: succeed apparently, which means a power suit and a pussy

635
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: bow blouse and just the right amount of teasing of

636
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: the hair, honestly, and maybe a kitten heel, a tasteful

637
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: kitten heel. And you also have fashion designers like our

638
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: Money that are promoting this particular silhouette. So you've got

639
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: the broad shoulder pads, those oversized lapels, um, which I

640
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: would just fill up with flair, you know, all my

641
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,919
Speaker 1: feminist flair, uh, and women would wear sometimes yes they's

642
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: pussy bow blouses with the you know, the floppy bow

643
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: on them, but also just lady ties. Um. And all

644
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 1: of this creates this sharper silhouette that is very masculine,

645
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: sort of disguising the hour glass figure in order to

646
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean it's really it's literal power dressing.

647
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: You're really trying to put on the authority that you

648
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: want to project and really camouflaging any femininity that could

649
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: potentially sap your power, shaking our heads. Um. And then

650
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: in nineteen and that's when we get Grace Jones is

651
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: nightclubbing that features her on the cover in this freaking

652
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: and suit cut down to hear, shoulders out to their

653
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 1: and a cigarette hanging out of her mouth and again

654
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: like such power dressing, and it's just in the water.

655
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: Because from eighty nine you've got the TV show Dynasty,

656
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: which features a lot of rich white women in a

657
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: lot of big, old power suits. And they even launched

658
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: a suit line based on this show, and costumer Nolan

659
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: Miller said that the style demonstrated the imposing strength of

660
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: an American woman. Quote when she walks down the hall,

661
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: you may not know who she is, but you know

662
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 1: she's rich, and you know you better get out of

663
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: the way. What a different tune than the Pachuca's right, yeah,

664
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, but these are white rich women we're

665
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: talking about. Um. But the Dynasty reference also reminded me

666
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: of designing women, where I mean, a all the women

667
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 1: were typically in well there were a lot of pussy

668
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,320
Speaker 1: bo blouses, um, a lot of big lapels and Julius

669
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: sugar Baker. Yeah, I mean she was always wearing some

670
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: kind of suit, a lot of times with a skirt.

671
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: But nonetheless it was that wide silhouette that yes, with

672
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: the buttons, that let you know Julia in business. Yeah,

673
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: oh she did. Ah. There's nothing I love more than

674
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: a Julius sugar Baker monologue. Um, but yeah, so this

675
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 1: this leads us up to the nineties. You've got, you know,

676
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: in the wake of Grace Jones being such a trendsetter,

677
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 1: you have Madonna sporting a huge shouldered, pinstriped suit over

678
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: lingerie for her Blonde Ambition tour. But then you've got

679
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: Vogue again coming into the picture telling us that power

680
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: dressing is over women. It's the nineties. You've been in

681
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: the workplace for a minute now, so we've got casual

682
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: fridays you can relax, and Niven Marcus stop selling suits,

683
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: and Donna Karen starts to make being softer corporate lady options.

684
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: That still, regardless of the fact that it is no

685
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: longer a broad shouldered suit, manages to telegraph money, money, money, money,

686
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: because you might be wearing pants, or you might be

687
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: wearing a pencil skirt, but your sweater or your top

688
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: might be cashmere, the skirt might be leather or suede.

689
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: You might be wearing reptile skin shoes. So even if

690
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: you're not looking like Grace Jones, you're still like, look

691
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: at how much money I have in my power dressing.

692
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 1: So what's happening though, in the cultural background, to all

693
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 1: of this is also the conservative backlash to second wave

694
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: feminism and the rise of the moral majority. So I

695
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: would imagine that part of that softening is an extension

696
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: of that. Oh yeah, because yeah, the political and the

697
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: personal constantly intertwined and reflecting each other. You know, Philish

698
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: laugh we didn't want women wearing power suits. Odd. No,

699
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: So someone who is white cooler than Philish Laughley was

700
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: is Barbara mccolsky. First of all, she knew she was

701
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: a novelty. Mccolsey was the first Democratic woman elected to

702
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: Senate in her own right, meaning that she wasn't taking

703
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: over a husband's seat if he passed away. And she

704
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: also recognized that what women wore was a big deal.

705
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean, how could she not as a politician. But inte,

706
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: She's in d C. It is cold, a winter storm

707
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: is on its way, and she doesn't want to be

708
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: freezing and uncomfortable in a meeting she has to attend.

709
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: But women aren't allowed to wear pants in Congress. Yeah,

710
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: so she helps develop this amazing plan, this pant plot,

711
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: uh too, along with a fellow senator and female staff.

712
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: First she gets them all together and she's like, ladies

713
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: were wearing pants, and it's kind of the same mentality

714
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: of like the day before Christmas thing, because it's like

715
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: it's a storm, it's towards the end of the session.

716
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: But she's like, we can't. How can you expect us

717
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: to wear skirts and heels out in this mess? And

718
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: so she develops this plot, but she has to alert

719
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: hyper traditional Senator Robert Bird to her plan. The Senate

720
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: Parliamentarian has to check the rules to make sure it's okay,

721
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: and Bird, once he's alerted to the fact that these

722
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: women folk are gonna trapes in wearing pants, he doesn't

723
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: even dignify their plan with like a oh gosh, He

724
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: just nods that, like, all right, let the women in.

725
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: And so mcculsky said, the day I walked on the

726
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: Senate floor in slacks, I became the first woman ever

727
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: to do so, you would have thought that I was

728
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: walking on the moon. Well, in what a different tone

729
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: she has than representative read exactly, Yeah, she planned to

730
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: do this, She knew what she was doing. She was like,

731
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous. This winter storm seems like it was

732
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: the last, you know, straw that broke the camel's back

733
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: of like, guys, this is insane. We should be able

734
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: to wear pants. Why does it take things like natural

735
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: disasters for for women to just be allowed to wear pants? Well,

736
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 1: maybe she was inspired by Dana Scully. Oh do tell

737
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: that's my favorite transition of this podcast ever. Well, and

738
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 1: n the X Files debuts and nerd girls everywhere back

739
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: then right now, I'm gritting because I agree worshiped at

740
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: the altar of Dana Scully. And of course that's not

741
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: to ignore obvious other business fashion pioneers like Murphy Brown,

742
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: Ali mcbeel and Samantha Jones. But come on, Scully, like,

743
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: it's amazing to go back and watch this fashion time capsule.

744
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: Scully at the beginning of the show is wearing these crazy,

745
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: these crazy suits, these huge like talking heads blazers, but

746
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: they're like plaid and they're all different colors. She's got

747
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: like a double breasted giant lapelle powder blue one that

748
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: she wears at one point, and over the course of

749
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: the show it evolves into the slimmer cut, more traditional

750
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: like you clearly went to Ja Crwe or Banana Republic

751
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: or something and bought a trim suit. Um, and that's

752
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: where it basically stayed. Dana Scully wearing the you know,

753
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: the FBI issue black suit with a white button up

754
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: shirt and the whole John T. Molloy of the Women

755
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: Dressed for Success book was none to please about all

756
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: these women on on the television wearing their suits and

757
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: having babies out of wedlock. So he releases a new

758
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: version of his book, uh really dragging women's pants suits.

759
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 1: He said, where pants only if you need them to

760
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: look like a member of the team or to perform

761
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: tasks that require them. But he did admit that the

762
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: suit quote made a resurgence when Hillary Clinton became quote

763
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: the first professional career woman to become the first lady,

764
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: which I'm confused by because it seems like the only

765
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: fashion press Hillary received was more in the vein of

766
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: what not to wear, Right, Yeah, That's why I was

767
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 1: really surprised that he was like, yeah, well, okay. Maybe

768
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: he just was looking at that as justification of why

769
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: more women we're donning suits. I'm not sure. And maybe

770
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: again he doesn't know what he's talking about because he's

771
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: trying to step polyester. Suit five is all over the place.

772
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't understand science, he really doesn't, but he does

773
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: name supposedly what the five suitable suits for women are

774
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: which I just have a lot of fun because he

775
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: calls them everything. From the traditional skirted which imitates you know,

776
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: men's colors and styles, but you know that jacket, it

777
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: might not have lapels if you get crazy. The aggressive

778
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: feminine suit. These are not my words, these are his words.

779
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: The aggressive feminine suit, which comes in strong colors like red,

780
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 1: or bold patterns like I don't know, maybe hound's tooth um.

781
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: The stylish professional, so your jacket is designed to be

782
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: worn without a blouse, so like it's one big button

783
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: up fancy jacket instead of a blouse. The soft feminine suit,

784
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: which is a pastel, maybe it has some lacy details.

785
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: And there's the conservative feminine, which has a more conservative

786
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: cut and color. But that being said, the color is

787
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: still one that would only be found on a woman suit,

788
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: perhaps a dark plum or some type of mahogany, and

789
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: it just telegraphs that message of I am both powerful

790
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: and feminine in my plumb, I'm trying to categorize from

791
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: this the first suit I ever bought myself, which did

792
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: come from the reputable clothier Target, and it was a

793
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: skirt suit. I'm gonna say it was more of a

794
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: traditional skirted suit. It wasn't stylish professional because certainly the

795
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: jacket was not designed to be warm without a blouse. Um.

796
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: But it was dark gray with subtle pin stripes and

797
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: a pencil skirt and I bought it for interviewing for

798
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: internships and things like that, and I loved wearing it.

799
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, target tarking against sell some good clothes,

800
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: and especially at the time in college, I was like this,

801
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: this is quite a splurge and um, and I liked it,

802
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: but certainly never thought about all of this, all of

803
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: the politics that were in my in my very cheap suit.

804
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I Um. When I graduated college, my

805
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: mother took me to J Crew and bought me two suits,

806
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: which was not cheap. One was solid black, but the

807
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: pants and the skirt one was like it had it

808
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: had that tone on tone black pin stripe pants and skirt,

809
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: and I just remember like evolving past the need to

810
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: wear them and was so grateful because like, yeah, I

811
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: mean you can feel powerful in a power suit for sure,

812
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: but that not a my style. Yeah, I'm more of

813
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: like if I've got a dress for work, I'm much

814
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: more of just like the slacks and whatever top typically

815
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: a card again, but I'm even past that, and I

816
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: basically wear a T shirt and jeans every day now.

817
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,760
Speaker 1: Caroline just comes in in a sports bra and literally

818
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: nothing else. Now, I do enjoy a good blazer. If

819
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: I've got something where I need to step it up

820
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 1: a little bit, you know what makes me feel. It

821
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: makes me feel a little more put together. Us tie

822
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: the outfit together. But apparently I'm kind of behind the times,

823
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 1: or maybe we've circled back around to it, because in

824
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal declared the power suit dead. Yeah,

825
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: I mean again, I just and they're like, oh again,

826
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: you don't have to wear the power suit. Um, you

827
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: can embrace your feminine elements of of you know whatever.

828
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: We don't have to be militant in our office apparel anymore.

829
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 1: Are feminine. It's feminine elements euphemism for vagina. Quitch showing

830
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 1: your vagina around the office. Everyone can see your feminine elements. Um,

831
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: but then, you know, just to show you how ridiculous

832
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: A lot of this conversation is around, like fashion magazines

833
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: and what's in and what's out. Just three years later,

834
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: in Vogue checks out the suit that Rihanna word of

835
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: the Grammys, and it's like, oh my god, the power

836
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: pants suit is back, y'all, and it's like, cut, guys,

837
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: can we just except that people are going to wear

838
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: whatever they want to wear and it doesn't have to

839
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: be in or out. But then I guess there wouldn't

840
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: be a fashion industry to make money off of. Well,

841
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 1: And I got to say, I am looking at Rihanna's

842
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: Grammy suit right now, and of course she looks flawless,

843
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: because she always does, but it's not necessarily groundbreaking. And

844
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: it's a double breasted suit with what looks like a

845
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: satin sheen lapel. It's not terribly well fitting, and it's

846
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: just a solid, like really dark blue black. But one

847
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 1: of the writers that we were reading talking about this

848
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: Rhianna suit that brought power dressing back. I guess I

849
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:48,959
Speaker 1: have no idea what she wrote harkens back to Ann

850
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: Hollander's piece about the suit is sex. You know, the

851
00:56:53,960 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: suit is gender swapping. Sex swapping. It's borrowing something. Maybe

852
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,839
Speaker 1: you picked it up off your lover's floor and threw

853
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 1: it on to go to the Grammys. It's just suggestive

854
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 1: of um, you know, I'm transgressing something. Well, and this

855
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 1: is the first time we're seeing a woman of color

856
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: bringing the suit potentially into vote. Yeah, and I mean

857
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: and and exactly. Speaking of women of color, it's it's

858
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: incredible to watch the fashion conversation evolve alongside more inclusive conversations,

859
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 1: you know, talking about queer women and particularly queer one

860
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: women of color. There was a great interview in The

861
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: New York Times with fashion bloggers Daniel Cooper and Sarah

862
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: Geffrard of She's a Gent and a Dapper Chick, who

863
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: both appreciate a masculine, well tailored women's wear suit. They

864
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: were like, we're here, we're queer, we love suits. We

865
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: don't need to be men. We just want to wear

866
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: what fits and feels good to us. And I mean,

867
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: that's what so much of this fashion conversation had has been. Yeah,

868
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: it's about transgressing norms and boundaries and being a trailblazer.

869
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 1: But for a lot of women, it's like, this is

870
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: what I feel like myself in and uh, Cooper and

871
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: Geffer had both talked about how wearing a well fitting suit,

872
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 1: especially as a queer woman of color, can be empowering,

873
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: um honestly, regardless of your sexual orientation. Geffer had said

874
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: that when I wear a suit, I feel like I

875
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,520
Speaker 1: can do things I would not otherwise do. I'm a

876
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 1: very shy person, but if I'm in a suit, I

877
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: feel very confident. I feel like I can talk to whoever.

878
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: Otherwise I would walk in and feel sort of small.

879
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: And she pointed out that switching from bag ear clothes

880
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: to a well fitting suit ended up freeing her from

881
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,720
Speaker 1: a lot of racist stereotyping that she experienced when she'd

882
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: walk into a store. She said, I used to wear

883
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: more of that urban streetwear, and I would get certain

884
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: looks that I didn't really like. I would go into

885
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: a store and someone would follow me when I started

886
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: addressing the way I do Now, I don't get that anymore.

887
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: So there's still a lot of class happening in our series,

888
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: understandably because suits are expensive. Um Cooper from She's a

889
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 1: Gent says, we're in an era when men and women

890
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: were everything. It doesn't really matter if you're gear straight,

891
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: and for us, it's really about showing young women that

892
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: they can wear whatever they want. And this reminds me

893
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: that in the past couple of years, I have seen

894
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: so many startups focusing on bespoke suits for women, whether

895
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: we're talking about more of just a standard woman going

896
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: to the workplace who wants a decent suit and doesn't

897
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: necessarily want to buy something from J Crew, all the

898
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: way to a lot of gender queer people, who are

899
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: you know, really making a space in this side of

900
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: the fashion industry. Yeah, so, I mean, who knew the

901
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: politics all of this stuff wrapped up in a suit? Answer?

902
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton? Yeah, bringing up full circle. She for sure knows.

903
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: She's got to know. I mean, every time she puts

904
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: on an outfit that she's she's telegraphing some message to someone.

905
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 1: People are gonna, you know, say anything that they can

906
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: about the color, the cut, whatever it is about her clothes.

907
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: Oh and at the one of the Democratic debates when

908
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: she wore that golden Mandarin Collard love top. You loved it,

909
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: but god, people wouldn't stop talking about it. Well, people

910
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: are ridiculous. People are ridiculous. But then again, I was

911
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: live tweeting about Michelle Obama's fabulous tangerine dress at the

912
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: State of the Union addressed, so perhaps I'm part of

913
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 1: the problem. Well, but there's a difference between I appreciate

914
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 1: what someone's wearing and I'm not going to listen into

915
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: what this person is saying because I can't stand but

916
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: she's wearing exactly Yeah. So now we want to stop

917
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: talking and listen to you, dear listeners. What do you

918
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: think about the politics of the pants suit? Let us

919
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: know your thoughts mom Stuff at how stuff works dot

920
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: com and for fellows listening, do you ever feel sort

921
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: of um chained to the pants suit where you would

922
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: appreciate being able to wear um softer styles, but you

923
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: feel like it's more of a requirement that you have

924
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 1: to put on this standard uniform of sorts. We want

925
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: to know what all we all think. Mom stuff at

926
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Again is our email address.

927
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

928
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

929
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. All right, I have

930
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: a letter here from all Day in response to our

931
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: janitor's episod out, and Aldo says, thank you for covering

932
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 1: the topic about janitors. My mother and I are both

933
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: janitors in the Los Angeles area. She cleans the offices

934
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,320
Speaker 1: while I clean the bathrooms in another building. As a child,

935
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: I would attend the union meetings and protest with my mother. Now,

936
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: as an adult working as a part time janitor, I'm

937
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: able to experience the hard work my mother encounters for

938
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,919
Speaker 1: the past twenties something years. I appreciate the hard work

939
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 1: she's done for my family. I'd like to break the

940
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 1: stereotype of the uneducated janitor. I and many janitors I know,

941
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: attend school in the morning and work at night. I

942
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: received my Associates of Arts degree in sociology, and I'm

943
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: currently a junior at a four year university working on

944
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 1: my b a in Child and adolescent development. I also

945
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 1: intern for a nonprofit organization educating children in low income

946
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 1: neighborhoods and how to be better readers. Thank you for

947
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 1: shedding light on our jobs. Now, excuse me, I need

948
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: to go back and sparkle up them floors. Although I

949
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: love the letter, thank you so much, and I love

950
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: that you and your mom share this life experience and

951
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: that she brought you to union meeting. So thanks for

952
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 1: writing in rad mom alert. So I have a letter

953
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: here from Alex, also prompted by our Justice for Janitors episode,

954
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: and Alex writes in summer, my office team went on

955
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: a summer outing that included a picnic. My supervisor, who

956
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: brought her cooler and some supplies, asked me to help

957
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 1: her bring them up to her apartment when we got back,

958
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: because she lived on a narrow street in Greenwich Village

959
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 1: where the car wouldn't really stop and we had to

960
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: get everything up in one trip. When we got to

961
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 1: her apartment, she let me in and said that I

962
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: could put the stuff down anywhere. There were two Latina

963
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: women in there, both in their fifties. One was cleaning

964
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:44,919
Speaker 1: the kitchen and the other was sitting in the living

965
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,200
Speaker 1: room going through a large stack of papers. Both were

966
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: wearing total scrub out clothes tank tops, old T shirts, shorts, etcetera.

967
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: I put the containers down and the woman in the

968
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: chair said, you must be Alex. I've heard such nice

969
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: things about you. I was confused because I had no

970
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: idea who this woman was. I assumed she was a

971
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: cleaning lady, presumably because someone else was also their cleaning,

972
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: and because she was dressed like I am when I

973
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: clean my apartment. The fact that she was older and

974
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: Latina also didn't help uncloud my unconscious bias either. As

975
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,680
Speaker 1: I was reaching out to shake her hand, it hit

976
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:28,240
Speaker 1: me why my boss is cleaning. Lady had privileged knowledge

977
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 1: about how great I am. She was in fact not

978
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: a maid, but Supreme Court Justice Sonia Soto Mayor Caroline

979
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 1: is cringing. I know this like letters, just studying Sonya

980
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: Soto Mayor, who owned the apartment. She and my boss

981
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: had been friends for decades, and my boss decided she

982
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 1: wanted to relocate from l A to New York. Sonia

983
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: graciously let her move in with her because she'd been

984
01:04:57,720 --> 01:04:59,919
Speaker 1: in d C most of the time. Anyway, I knew

985
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: all of this already, but just didn't put five and

986
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: four together quickly enough. Maybe I assumed she wore the

987
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: black robe seven. Who knows. I still feel bad for

988
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: automatically thinking that an older Puerto Rican woman must have

989
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,840
Speaker 1: been quote unquote the help. But I'm happy I was

990
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: able to catch myself before saying something stupid in front

991
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 1: of one of the people who would later go on

992
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:25,960
Speaker 1: to vote for my equal right to marriage. Anyway, that's

993
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: my story about how I almost made a horrible gaff

994
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 1: in front of one of the most powerful women in

995
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 1: the country. I've been listening to Smendi since maybe two

996
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 1: thousand nine and ten, and I still love it. I

997
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: like to save a few episodes and then take a

998
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 1: long walk and listen to them. And it's like, I'm

999
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 1: just hanging out with my pals, and Alex says, ps.

1000
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: The other woman there was also not a maid, but

1001
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 1: another one of their friends who was just hanging out.

1002
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: I'd love to have any of my friends hang out

1003
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: and clean my kitchen, but that's neither here nor there.

1004
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: WHOA right? Yeah, oh wow, what an amazing way to

1005
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 1: outroot your inherent biases? Right? Have it be? It's Supreme

1006
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: Court justice O God. Also, there is a terrific conversation

1007
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:13,959
Speaker 1: with uh Justice Soto Mayor on death, sex and money

1008
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: that you should listen to if you haven't. Also, that's

1009
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: just a fabulous podcast, so tune in. And also, folks,

1010
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 1: if you have letters to send our way mom stuff

1011
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is where you can

1012
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: send them and for links to all of our social

1013
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and

1014
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn even more

1015
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 1: about power suits. Head over the stuff Mom Never Told

1016
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: You dot com or more on this and thousands of

1017
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot Com