WEBVTT - WokeAF Daily 4.27.20 - This Is Not Normal 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.599 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.280 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody right here live from the 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.200 Long Island Bunker. You know. This week, I want to 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.240 take a different approach to the show where I'm going 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:32.960 to have in depth conversations with folks across different industries 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:39.080 to discuss exactly how COVID is impacting them, from education 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.639 to the judiciary to television. I am going to have 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.720 in depth discussions with the folks about how we are 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.879 dealing with this and what are some of the opportunities. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.360 Frankly that can come out of this obstacle. Look like 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.160 everybody else, on a day to day basis, I probably 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:02.480 swing from mood you know A to mood Z in 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.960 a matter of minutes, if not ours. And so one 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:08.520 of the things that has been pressing on me though 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.399 is successful people usually in the midst of some type 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:18.520 of crisis. They become successful because they find the niche, 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.760 they find the right wave to ride at the right time. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.320 This is not about profiting off of people's pain, but 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:32.120 it is about rethinking our democracy, rethinking our society, looking 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.240 at where all of the gaps have been that we 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.720 have just normalized, right like it has been normal to 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.800 us that there are people that hold a majority of 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.160 the world's wealth, like ten people right that hold a 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.160 majority of the world's wealth while the rest of us 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.200 are starving. Right, We have normalized the fact that your 0:01:54.760 --> 0:02:00.360 zip code can determine your life expectancy and whether you'll 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.600 end up in jail, whether or not you'll end up 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.760 with a college degree, whether or not you'll end up 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.120 with high blood pressure. We have normalized the idea that 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.480 there are some people that will have to work two 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.720 four jobs in order to make ends meet. We have 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:21.520 normalized the idea that we don't have a national living 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.840 wage for people, right, even though those are the very 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.080 people that are continuing to keep us fed right and 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.680 keep us in our homes because we're able to go 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.519 to the grocery store, because they're taking care of our 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.280 elderly that we're no longer able to visit. There are 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.200 so many things, in so many aspects of life that 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:44.040 we have taken for granted because somebody else was doing them. 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:47.360 So in the midst of this crisis, instead of just 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:52.600 focusing on the crisis, maybe for a little bit of 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.120 the time, we should start thinking about what are some 0:02:55.240 --> 0:03:00.720 of the opportunities available to make things actually better. So 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.960 let's start at the top with woke a F Daily. Today, 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.640 we're going to be in conversation with our regular woke 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:15.040 F contributor Melissa Murray, who is a constitutional law professor 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:19.480 at NYU and she also hosts the podcast that focuses 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:24.680 on the Supreme Court. And why do I love to 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:30.120 talk to Melissa? One because she is brilliant, but two 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.480 because she has an ability to look at and analyze 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.760 the world in a very different way, particularly as it 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.080 pertains to law. But also we got into a very 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:45.800 interesting conversation about what this current moment is telling us 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:51.680 about working moms right about what structures are in place 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.880 for parents right now. What happens if you are living 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.920 in a Georgia, if you were living in a Texas, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.560 so if you're living in a Wisconsin. States that are 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:07.240 considering or have already opened, but they're not opening up schools, 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.240 what does that mean for working moms Because we know 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.880 that most of the childcare child rearing falls on women. 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.120 So if you now are being forced to go back 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.200 to the workplace, whether or not it is deemed safe, 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:25.400 whether or not the businesses are abiding by whatever guidelines 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.479 Brian Kemp has put out, What does that mean? How 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.159 does our education system right in this moment need to 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:37.000 evolve and innovate in a way that has been lacking 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:42.400 for decades. What are the things in terms of television 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.680 and how we access television, how we access entertainment, how 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.800 we stream services, how we record things. What are the 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:50.560 things that are going to be changing. Those are the 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.000 conversations that I'm going to be digging into this week 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.239 because I think that it's important. So excited to welcome 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.320 back to wok F Daily Melissa Murray, who is a 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.800 professor at and Why You Law School and also the 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:06.040 co host of Strict Scrutiny, I, a podcast covering all 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.760 things scotus in the world that you need to be 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.480 paying attention to. Melissa, Welcome back, How are you doing? 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.240 Thanks for having me and doing well? Sheltering in place, 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.400 per usual, per usual. In California, things are going well 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:26.160 over there. I think things are sort of flattening out 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.320 and there's some talk of reopening. I think some areas 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.120 in Irvine and Newport Beach have opened up, although the 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.120 rest of the state seems to have been taking a 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:40.640 much slower approach. To reopening more cautious, I mean, and 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.000 rightfully so the same thing with us here in New York. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.600 Governor Cuomo told us today that maybe construction and manufacturing 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.599 in certain places can open as a phase one, but 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.760 that businesses need to start putting together their plans on 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:01.080 what they envision reopening to look like. So it seems 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.280 that we're all on that kind of slow role. God 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:10.320 only knows, Melissa. So last week, the President of the 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.640 United States, in the midst of one of his briefing 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:19.920 slash rallies, which is more less brief decided to pontificate 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:25.800 to the American people whether or not injecting disinfectant and 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.799 UV light into the body would rid us of COVID 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.960 nineteen in less than a minute. This is what he said. 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.919 He said it very definitively. He said it at the 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.920 presidential podium in the press room at the White House. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.839 Doctor Bricks has been asked now several times since the 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:48.200 White House had to issue a statement saying that, oh, 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.960 you know, it's the liberal media that is making a 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.839 big deal about this, and the President wasn't at all, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.440 suggesting that it was just him brainstorming. I've never known 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.000 the president of the United States to brainstorm on live television. 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.880 But maybe that is something new. Since then Lisol had 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.560 to issue a statement, Chlorox had to issue a statement. 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.440 Several state health departments have had to issue statements urging 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:19.160 people not to drink disinfectant or injected into their bodies. 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:24.160 What are the legal, if any, ramifications around the president 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.080 just popping off at the mouth and then the consistent 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:32.680 backtracking by this administration. Well, first, let's just acknowledge that 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.560 there were people who took this seriously on a number 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.080 of individuals or hospitalized. I think that just speaks to 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:45.120 the fear and real desperation that people feel around the pandemic. 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.320 I think there's incredible worry. Even as we sort of 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.920 seem to have qusted about the worst of this in 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.040 the major urban areas, there's still I think incredible fear 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.560 because there's so much that is unknown about this illness, 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:02.400 like why it happens to be virulent in some individuals, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.000 whereas in others it just sort of passes without incident. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.160 I think people are genuinely worried, and we don't really 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.480 know when a vaccine is likely to arrive, and so 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.200 I think people hear this individual who the President of 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.320 the United States, who is in a position of authority, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.360 and you know, maybe they're not exercising terrific judgment, but 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.760 this is an official mouthpiece of the United States, the 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.640 representative of the United States on a global family saying this, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.680 and you know, whether he's joking or not, people are 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.160 going to take it seriously because it comes with the 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.520 in premature of the federal government, of the most important 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.079 office in the federal government, and you know, that is 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:44.960 incredibly unfortunate. The president's spokespersons say that, you know, this 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.000 was a joke, and then they did a sort of 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.640 traditional pivot that often happens when the president's statements come 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:56.040 in for scrutiny or for challenge. They talked about freedom 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:57.920 of speech, and I just want to sort of push 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.800 back on this idea that freedom of speech it's just 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.280 kind of an unfettered license to say what you like 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.720 at any time that you like without any consequences, Like, 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.920 that's not the case. There is no liberty that is 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.280 inscribed in the Constitution that is absolutely unfettered. And I 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.120 say this under the best of circumstances when we're talking 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.280 about things like gun rights. Yes, the Constitution provides for 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.720 the right to their arms, but it's not unfettered. It's 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:28.560 not when you want to without any restrictions. There are 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.040 lots of ways in which they fundamental freedoms that are 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.520 enshrined in the Constitution can be restricted. And so again, 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.200 as with free speech, the president doesn't have unfettered license 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.400 to say what he wants whenever he wants them. Again, 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.440 there's a very famous Supreme Court case. You cannot simply 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.160 yell fire in a slotted theater right. You must take 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:52.600 into account the impact of that speech on broader public health, 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.840 public safety consequences. And this might be one of those cases. Now, 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.200 whether or not the president can be held into court 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.920 and called to account what he says, I mean, you 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.440 may have lots of sort of procedural limits on whether 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.240 or not the president can be subject to civil suits, 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:10.560 and lots of constitutional inkis and filled on that. But 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.600 at the very least I think you can say that, 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.800 you know, free speech isn't truly free right, you have 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.839 some limits on it, like you have to exercise this 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.800 liberty in a responsible manner, and all of the case 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.439 law in this arena make clear that that is surely 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:28.839 the case. I mean It's just terrifying to me that 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.160 this president gets up on a microphone and that there 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.559 are forty percent of the population Melissa believes everything and 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.960 anything that comes out of his mouth. And so the 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.079 idea that one of the first things that people tell 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:44.880 you when they have kids, what is the first thing 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.600 when your kids are crawling walking? What are you supposed 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.240 to do? Lock all of your medicine cabinets, Lock the 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:55.040 cabinet underneath the sink where there are harmful and dangerous chemicals. 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.079 And yet this president essentially just said, bust open the 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.040 child locks. Why don't we try and see what happens. 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.360 That is, to me akin to yelling fire in the 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.200 middle of a crowded theater. And then we're supposed to say, 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.959 after the fact, where people are rushing and trampling for 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.440 the door or ingesting things that they should not be ingesting, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:16.760 say oh, well, I don't know why you were taking 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.319 anything that the president was saying. Seriously, he was just kidding, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.760 or it was sarcastic. None of those things were true. 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.400 The tape has been replayed over again, and we watch 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:32.240 the uncomfortableness of doctor Bricks. But I'm wondering, now, is 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.400 everyone just fearing the loss of a job instead of 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.839 fearing the loss of more dead Americans at the hands 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:48.120 of a very dangerous and uninformed president. Well, so I 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.920 think we ought to just start generally with our people afraid. 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.079 I think people are really afraid. I think a lot 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.840 of this kind of comes down to root fear and 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:59.679 I think a lingering suspicion that this administration does not 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.040 have handle on this. And I think we know that, 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.720 and we're all grasping at straws. And maybe you know, 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.000 those individuals who thought it would be a good idea 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.800 to ingest cleaning products because the President said that that 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.840 might be a way to stave off this virus, I 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.000 think that's an action, an act of desperation, an act 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.800 motivated by fear. And it is a fear that I 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.760 think this President has done little to a swage right. 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:27.959 In fact, you know, he stoked it in a lot 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.120 of ways, or you know, try to sort of pawn 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:31.800 it up. This is a Chinese virus. There are other 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:33.600 people to blame for it. Instead of just really sort 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:36.679 of grappling what we need to whoever cause this, we 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.920 need to get a handle on it. Um, I don't 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.920 know what it means going forward for us, that we 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.280 had forty percent of you know, the electorate who believes 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.880 what he says unwillingly, because I mean, I think, and 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:54.480 I believe this quite strongly. The whole prospect of democracy 0:12:54.640 --> 0:13:00.240 isn't about unwavering and blind faith and allegiance to a 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.640 charismatic leader. I mean, it's exactly the opposite. The whole 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:07.800 point of democracy is that you have a citizenry that 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:12.240 is educated, and I don't mean like it has gone 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.560 to college, but can generally discern for themselves, have other 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.400 sources of allegiance, whether it's religion or their families, beliefs 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.240 that allow them to be skeptical of government and to 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.520 call the government out when it goes too far. I mean, 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.280 that's the vision of democracy that the Framers had. I mean, 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.599 it's why we have protections for freedom of speech, for 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:37.760 the press. This idea that there should be other sources 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.960 of authority that can challenge the government so that the 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.320 government cannot become so powerful so as to completely overwhelm 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.040 the liberty of the people. And we don't have that 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.680 right now. Instead, what we have is, you know, a 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.280 charismatic leader who's telling everyone to do something and people 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:59.640 just sort of blindly falling in line and sometimes to 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.079 their detriment. You know. One of the things that I 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.040 keep thinking about, you know, on a day to day basis. 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.680 And again, I'm in New York with the both of 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:14.040 us are literally functioning under governor's leadership that have sense. Right. 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:18.400 You're with, you know, with Governor Newsom in California, and 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.160 I'm with Cuomo in New York. And one of the 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.560 things that has been amplified during this time is states rights. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.400 We're all getting a really good lesson in what states 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.200 have the authority to do and what the federal government 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.040 has the authority to do. And you know, for so 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.320 many years we've all been able to and I mean 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.640 and I mean years, you know, decades upon decades, been 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.400 able to rest on our laurels, understanding that there are 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.240 a myriad of agencies that we don't even know the 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:51.560 names of that are working on our behalf, and understanding 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.520 the true distinction. What I'm concerned about, however, is that 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.720 the lack of federal leadership in this moment, right is 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:05.040 not just about the you know, the letting go of 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.000 power and leadership and like acquiescing to the states, but 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.520 I wonder what this looks like moving forward. Right, we 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.960 have I mean, not only in this country has Trump 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.160 the Trump administration essentially thrown up their hands. Right, Governors 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:26.520 are are conducting treaties, essentially trade agreements, I should say, 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:31.280 not treaties, trade agreements with foreign leaders in order to 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:35.760 acquire the ventilators the ppe that they need. Right. And 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.560 Cuomo said the other day last week, it's not our job. 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.840 It's not our job to negotiate with foreign countries, like 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.080 that's the federal government. How do you see the roles 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.840 and the responsibilities between the federal government and the states 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.560 moving forward? Right where we can no longer trust that 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.760 there is going to be any kind of unified leadership, 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.160 and we are literally in a situation where it's everyone 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.640 for themselves. You have Georgia opening, you have Texas getting 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:12.280 ready to open. Rallies in Wisconsin. New York saying slow 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:16.560 your role. We're working on a regional situation. California saying 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.200 slow your role. We're also working regionally, but everyone else 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.960 is kind of doing their own thing. What does that 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.520 look like for the future of our democracy? Well, to 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.720 think about the future of our democracy, let's look at 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.400 the past. So let's go all the way back to 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.080 seventeen eighty seven. This nation had just come out of 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.120 the American Revolution. They didn't actually have a constitution yet. Instead, 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.440 they had this document called the Articles of Confederation, which 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:47.000 basically allowed for this kind of loose confederation of states, 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.640 and all of the states, all of these thirteen colonies 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.640 now skates. We're basically free to do whatever they like. 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.640 So Virginia had its own money, Connecticut had its own money. 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.120 Virginia was trying to negotiate something with England and France. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.320 Jina had paid off its debt, New York had paid 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.679 off it's that other states had not. It was all 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:07.119 kind of a hodgepodge and they couldn't do anything. And 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.560 so they get together in seventeen eighty seven for the 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.800 purposes of trying to amend these Articles of Confederation and 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:15.800 actually make a working document to run a government. And 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.120 they realize that they can't have a working document that 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.119 is premised on this idea of thirteen sovereign entities, like 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.879 they actually have to draft a plan that allows for 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.720 a kind of centralized government. But they can't. They're scared. 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.280 The idea of centralized government to them looks very much 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.320 like England Parliament the King. They are worried about a 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:42.720 centralized government leading to tyranny, and so the constitution that 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:48.199 they draft is this very delicate balance between centralizing power 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.520 within a federal government for the purpose of coining money, 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:56.080 negotiating with foreign powers, conducting foreign policy, but then also 0:17:56.240 --> 0:18:00.080 limiting that federal government so that the individual state and 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.280 the people within them can actually have some room to move. 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.400 And so you know, they strike this balance of divided 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:11.080 government among the federal government. So there're three branches and 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.480 they each can check each other in particular ways, and 0:18:13.480 --> 0:18:17.240 so there's a kind of horizontal division and diffusion of power. 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:21.919 And then vertically they diffuse power between the federal government 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.919 of the states. So constitution is basically a list of 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:28.440 all of the things that Congress, the President, the courts 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.240 can do, and then everything else is supposed to be 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.040 left up to the states, right, And so you know, 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:35.840 the way this is shaken out over time is that 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.600 the federal government really deals with these issues of centralization 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:41.320 that we need. Like you know, you want to have 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.640 interstate commerce, a market market economy, that's for Congress, right, 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.479 But individual things within states, those are for states to do. 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:52.360 So states will do these kind of things that are 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.760 in trust, state in nature. The Trump administrations really turn 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.320 these ideas on their head in some ways that are 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.080 really so. At the beginning, when the Trump administration was 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.040 rolling back federal protections for the environment and things like that, 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.880 California and many of these other Western states began codifying 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.480 into their state laws the existing protections that had been 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.600 available in federal statutes that had been rolled back under 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.879 the Trump administration. So an example of what some have called, 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.520 like Heather Gerkin and Jessica Bowman Posen for example, have 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.520 called uncooperative federalism. So, you know, we're really getting this 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.800 sort of emboldened sense of the states because realistically the 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.359 federal government hasn't protected some of the things that the 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.160 states think are important. Right, They're not acting in a way, 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.159 but the states see as important by the same token. 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.560 We see this in a lot of different issues. So 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.800 a lot has been made about Letitia James, the Age 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.919 in New York, going after the Trump administration and the 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.879 Trump family for its sort of business dealings, which you know, 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.000 she finds shady. A lot of that is a response 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.880 to the fact that Congress for much of the administration 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.800 has been really blacks on oversight of the executive branch, 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.200 and so you see a kind of displacement effect. If 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.639 Congress isn't going to do it, isn't going to call 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.600 the president and his family to account for these business 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.919 deals that seem shady, while then that will go to 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.600 the States. And so you know your syvance in New 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.600 York City eventually going about trying to get the president's 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:26.679 financial disclosure. I mean, there was also lots to be 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.399 made of the fact that he had an opportunity to 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.400 really go after the Trump children and pass that up initially, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.080 but you do see a lot of this work being displaced. 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:38.280 So I actually think the Trump administration is kind of 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.359 a really reinvigorating moment for federalism. But it's not the 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.600 federalism that we might have seen, you know in nineteen 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.400 sixty five where you've been in eighteen sixty five. One 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:52.040 to really talk about federalism was to give states the 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.639 power to do things that we might find really troubling. So, 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.520 you know, slavery was defended as an exercise of states 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.760 rights of federalism and the idea that the federal government 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.480 could tell states that they could not be slaveholding was 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.480 seen as completely inconsistent with the Constitution. And then of 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:12.040 course you have the fourteenth Amendment, the fifteenth thirteenth Amendment 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.280 coming along to make clear that the federal government does 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:15.800 have a role to say in whether or not you 0:21:15.840 --> 0:21:19.239 can own people. But I think what we're seeing right 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:23.119 now is a kind of new, weirdly progressive brand of 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.040 federalism that is very much unlike what we've seen before, 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.920 probably you know, a species of what the founders had 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:35.000 in mind. But again, this idea that the states are 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:39.440 going to check an overrunning, an over encroaching executive branch. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.720 I just you know, I want to think that in 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.200 the hands of good you know, to me, it looks 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.480 like this. In the hands of good people, good things happen, right, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.240 So the fact that and in the hands of bad people, 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:57.080 basalism can be bad. Yeah, federalism can be bad. So 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.600 it's like, okay, great right now, because as the two 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:04.199 of us are positioned in states that are in the 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.840 hands of who I perceived to be people that are 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.679 on the side of public health and science and facts 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.840 and climate change and wanting to do right by the 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.920 by their residence, I feel like it's a good thing. 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:22.720 But in the Florida of the world, or Mississippi or 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:29.720 Alabama or Georgia, right, it's like, what are those residents 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.679 supposed to do? You have a state right now? You know, 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:36.359 you have a state yesterday. Um, you know, over the weekend, 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:40.199 I went on MSNBC for the first time in weeks 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:42.600 and weeks and weeks, and you know, one of the 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.240 questions that I was asked about is why do you 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:49.760 think that states Republican governors are rushing to open up 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.280 these states to reopen And I said, because they don't 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:56.479 want to pay unemployment because there is a rush for 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.119 people who have lost their jobs. And one of the 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:02.440 questions that you are asked when you are seeking unemployment 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:05.679 is that is has there been an opportunity for you 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:09.920 to get work? Right? Well, if the states now open up, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:13.040 even though you don't feel safe and you don't want 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:16.160 to endanger yourself or your family, you have now been 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:18.800 placed in a position where you have no option. That's 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.200 a great example of you know, federalism looks really different 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:24.960 if you're in a red state versus a blue state, 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:27.600 and so, and you can think about that even going back, 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.240 you know, why does Georgia have this problem right now 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.879 in terms of unemployment insurance. Well, they passed a number 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.840 of laws that limit the degree to which they can 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:38.920 expand their budget and whether they can tax their citizens 0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:41.600 in order to expand the budget to accommodate, you know, 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:46.040 a kind of unprecedented economic pressure like the one that 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:48.720 we're seeing right now, and they can't because they pass 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.560 these laws. That's actually, like that was within their progative 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.080 to do, That's what the voters in Georgia wanted. So 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:59.120 limiting their ability to raise taxes and to raise revenue 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:01.480 is something that george did a couple of years ago 0:24:01.480 --> 0:24:03.840 at the will of its citizens. And now, you know, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:06.000 one of the consequences is that you're not going to 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:09.320