1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty, the stadium course at TPC Sawgrass made

2
00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,440
Speaker 1: its debut. Seven years later, another stadium course, this one

3
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,880
Speaker 1: at PGA West in California, hosted its first PGA Tour event.

4
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,440
Speaker 1: It seemed like the idea of a stadium golf course

5
00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 1: was catching on, but then it didn't. So in today's episode,

6
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,439
Speaker 1: we'll talk about what a stadium golf course is and

7
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,640
Speaker 1: why there aren't more of them, And to dig a

8
00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 1: little deeper into a particular stadium course, I'll bring on

9
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,480
Speaker 1: the architect Tim Liddy, who recently completed a renovation at

10
00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,720
Speaker 1: PGA West. I'm Garrett Morrison and this is designing golf,

11
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 1: all right, So today's big question is a two parter,

12
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 1: what is a stadium golf course and why aren't there

13
00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,640
Speaker 1: more of them? And I'll just say right off the

14
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,280
Speaker 1: bat that I think the notion of a stadium course

15
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 1: is really interesting. It might be one of the most

16
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,160
Speaker 1: original ideas that has come into golf architecture in the

17
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 1: past fifty years, but it hasn't actually spawned that many

18
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,880
Speaker 1: golf courses. And I'll explore some reasons for that later,

19
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,640
Speaker 1: but first let's tackle the question of what a stadium

20
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,200
Speaker 1: golf course is so when golf fans hear the term

21
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,160
Speaker 1: stadium course, they'll immediately think of the stadium course at

22
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 1: TPC Sagrass side of the Players Championship, first stadium course

23
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,440
Speaker 1: in many ways, the definitive stadium golf course. And then

24
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 1: after that some might think of the PGA West Stadium

25
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 1: Course near Palm Springs, California. This is one of the

26
00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,200
Speaker 1: courses where the PGA Tour's American Express Tournament is held.

27
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, those are the two big stadium golf courses

28
00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,160
Speaker 1: that most people are familiar with, both designed by Pete

29
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: die TPC Sawgrass opened in nineteen eighty and PGA West

30
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: opened in nineteen eighty. Now, the initial idea of a

31
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 1: stadium course was developed in the late seventies by Dean Beaman.

32
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,080
Speaker 1: Dean Beaman was the commissioner of the PGA Tour from

33
00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,079
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four to nineteen ninety four. I interviewed him

34
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,480
Speaker 1: a few years ago and he told me that his

35
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: basic goal with TPC Sawgrass was to build a course

36
00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,600
Speaker 1: that was just as focused on the gallery as it

37
00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 1: was on the players, and for him, that translated into

38
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:39,399
Speaker 1: two big design principles. One put the spectator areas on

39
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:43,160
Speaker 1: the high ground and the playing surfaces on the low ground.

40
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,360
Speaker 1: This is obviously a fundamental principle of any sports stadium,

41
00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,840
Speaker 1: but typically golf courses have not been built in that fashion.

42
00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,760
Speaker 1: The second big principle of a stadium course, according to Beeman,

43
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 1: was routing the golf holes to create hubs of activity,

44
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 1: in other words, having the holes move back and forth

45
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 1: instead of being strung out along a single line. This

46
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,160
Speaker 1: way there will be areas that spectators can watch the

47
00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 1: action on multiple tees and greens at once. Right, if

48
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,519
Speaker 1: the golf course is constantly doubling back on itself, inevitably

49
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:29,200
Speaker 1: there will be places where the golf course converges with itself. Now,

50
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 1: these weren't totally new ideas. For instance, the idea of

51
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 1: spectator areas on the high ground. I think Beeman probably

52
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 1: got some inspiration there from the Links courses in Scotland

53
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,440
Speaker 1: and England, where you have dunes around a lot of

54
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 1: the fairways and greens. And then for the second principle

55
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,680
Speaker 1: of routing to create hubs of activity, this is just

56
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 1: something that golf architects have been doing consciously since at

57
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:03,160
Speaker 1: least the golden age of golf architecture, it's just a

58
00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 1: smart practice to have a few spots where there are

59
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,280
Speaker 1: these clusters of teas and greens. For one thing, it

60
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 1: allows for easier maintenance because you don't have to walk

61
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,440
Speaker 1: as much when you're mowing. And for another, it allows

62
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:24,040
Speaker 1: an architect to take advantage of particularly good landforms. Right,

63
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,239
Speaker 1: so if you have a wonderful ridge or knoll or whatever,

64
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,480
Speaker 1: you don't just want to visit it once. You want

65
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,760
Speaker 1: to put multiple greens and teas there so that you

66
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,760
Speaker 1: can really get the most out of it. Augusta National

67
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,599
Speaker 1: is actually a great example of a course oriented around

68
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,479
Speaker 1: a few hubs of activity, and incidentally, that's one reason

69
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,200
Speaker 1: it's such a great spectator venue. I think you can

70
00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:55,040
Speaker 1: just hang out on that hill where the second, seventh,

71
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,719
Speaker 1: and seventeenth holes all come together, and you'll have a

72
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 1: great time for a few just you know, watching the

73
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,600
Speaker 1: action on those different holes. This is what Beeman wanted

74
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,279
Speaker 1: at a stadium golf course, just these places where you

75
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 1: could sit above the players and see more than one

76
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,080
Speaker 1: group at a time. So if you look at the

77
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,039
Speaker 1: stadium course at TPC Sawgrass, you can see these principles

78
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,400
Speaker 1: in action. The holes are surrounded by massive mounding, and

79
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: in the original design there were actually these grass bleachers

80
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 1: in a number of spots. They're really cool. They're no

81
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,800
Speaker 1: longer there. They were removed over time because I'm not

82
00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,040
Speaker 1: sure that the grass bleachers ever drained especially well, so

83
00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,000
Speaker 1: they might have gotten a bit too soggy when it

84
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,480
Speaker 1: was raining. But in general, I would say the PGA

85
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 1: tour has leaned less on permanent infrastructure for spectators and

86
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: more on tents and grandstands, which is a bit of

87
00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,360
Speaker 1: a shame because the original earthworks of Pete Dies design

88
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,400
Speaker 1: at TPC Sawgrass, we're really cool and distinctive. On the

89
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 1: bright side, though, the elevation of the spectator areas is

90
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,120
Speaker 1: still there and the sitelines are still there, So the

91
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,039
Speaker 1: original stadium course does follow through on that Dean Beaman

92
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:22,960
Speaker 1: principle of spectators high players low. Now for Dean Beaman's

93
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,239
Speaker 1: second principle hubs of activity, TPC Sawgrass does follow through

94
00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 1: somewhat on that one. The routing doubles back on itself

95
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,240
Speaker 1: pretty frequently, so you know, you can walk the course

96
00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 1: fairly easily, and then there's a big hub of activity

97
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,720
Speaker 1: at sixteen, seventeen and eighteen which is just one of

98
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 1: the best designed spectator areas in golf, and certainly the

99
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 1: greatest and clearest example of what a golf stadium can

100
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,839
Speaker 1: look like and feel like. But aside from that one spot,

101
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 1: there actually aren't that many hubs of activity at TPC Sawgrass.

102
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,839
Speaker 1: There are some good places to sit and watch, but

103
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,280
Speaker 1: you don't have those kind of Augusta National type gathering

104
00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: points where you find a bunch of greens and teas

105
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,040
Speaker 1: in the same place. Sawgrass is a little more spaced out,

106
00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,160
Speaker 1: and maybe that's a bit of a miss in the design,

107
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: but all in all the course has stood the test

108
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 1: of time very well. It's still a fantastic, unique spectator

109
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: venue and still an exacting and entertaining golf course. Importantly

110
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 1: so that brings us to the PGA West Stadium Course,

111
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 1: which will host two rounds of the American Express Tournament

112
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 1: this week. There are a lot of obvious design similarities

113
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 1: between PGA West and TPC Sawgrass. You have the playing

114
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,960
Speaker 1: surfaces low and you have the spectator areas high. You

115
00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: have classic strategic angles like TPC Sawgrass. You have fair

116
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,680
Speaker 1: ways that kind of move unpredictably. You have visual intimidation

117
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,679
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. And of course, the finishing stretch

118
00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,240
Speaker 1: at PGA West is very similar to the one at Sawgrass.

119
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 1: Sixteen is a risk reward par five with danger around

120
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: the green. Seventeen is an island par three, which, by

121
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: the way, Die was reluctant to build because he didn't

122
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,440
Speaker 1: want to repeat himself, but he was talked into doing

123
00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,160
Speaker 1: it by the developers. And finally, eighteen is a par

124
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 1: four with water on one side and an angled fair way,

125
00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: less severe than the one at TPC Sawgrass for sure,

126
00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:45,959
Speaker 1: but superficially similar overall, though I would not say that

127
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:51,200
Speaker 1: PGA West embodied Dean Beaman's principles of the stadium course.

128
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,760
Speaker 1: The routing at PGA West is very strung out. It's

129
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,199
Speaker 1: kind of out and back with each nine, and there

130
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: aren't really any significant hubs of activity that might have

131
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,120
Speaker 1: been done to create more real estate frontage. There are

132
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 1: houses at at PGA West up and down the golf course,

133
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 1: so perhaps that was a priority more than the stadium idea.

134
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 1: And in fact, later in this episode you will hear

135
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,160
Speaker 1: Tim Liddy say that he thinks the name stadium course

136
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,960
Speaker 1: is just a name, more of a marketing label. Than

137
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,120
Speaker 1: anything inherent to the golf course. In any case, As

138
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,760
Speaker 1: with TPC Sawgrass, DIY intended at PGA West to build

139
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,600
Speaker 1: a very, very hard golf course. Here's what Dye said

140
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 1: in his book, Bury Me in a Pop Bunker. He wrote,

141
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 1: and I quote length alone would not be the ultimate

142
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 1: test for the new course, but I believed strategic hazards,

143
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 1: deep bunkers, difficult angles across fairways, slightly offset greens, parallel lakes,

144
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 1: and desert plants, when combined with cross current wins, could

145
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,360
Speaker 1: provide the type of course Joe and Ernie expected. Joe

146
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,920
Speaker 1: and Ernie refers to Joe Waalzer and Ernie Vossler, who

147
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,120
Speaker 1: were two of the main developers behind the project. So

148
00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 1: when the PGA West Stadium course debuted at the Bob

149
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,560
Speaker 1: Hope Tournament in nineteen eighty seven, it did seem like

150
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 1: Pete Dye had succeeded in building the hardest course in

151
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,439
Speaker 1: the world. A lot of players were very, very angry.

152
00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,679
Speaker 1: Raymond Floyd referred to the course as spiteful and belligerent.

153
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,440
Speaker 1: Tom Watson said, I'm sick and tired of these courses.

154
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 1: It requires you to execute shots that no sane golfer

155
00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 1: should be expected to play. And then after the event,

156
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,280
Speaker 1: a group of PGA Tour players actually signed a petition

157
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,240
Speaker 1: to remove the course from the PGA Tour and it

158
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,200
Speaker 1: was removed. It didn't host the tournament again until twenty sixteen.

159
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,679
Speaker 1: Now today this all kind of seems funny because it's

160
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 1: very clear that the PGA West Stadium Course is not

161
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,400
Speaker 1: the hardest course in the world. Since twenty sixteen it

162
00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 1: has actually been one of the easier courses on tour,

163
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,080
Speaker 1: so it has not retained its difficulty, and I think

164
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,880
Speaker 1: there are a few possible reasons for that. One is

165
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,400
Speaker 1: that the American Express is a pro am, so the

166
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 1: setup just can't be too hard, otherwise rounds or are

167
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,520
Speaker 1: going to take too long to complete. Two, the course

168
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,199
Speaker 1: doesn't really penalize wayward driving all that harshly. PGA West

169
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,079
Speaker 1: doesn't have trees, doesn't have much rough, and there's water

170
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 1: in play on nine holes as opposed to seventeen holes

171
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,800
Speaker 1: at Sawgrass. The upshot of all this is that PGA

172
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 1: West doesn't really take driver out of the hand of

173
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,600
Speaker 1: players in the way the TPC Sawgrass does. And you

174
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,720
Speaker 1: know here in twenty twenty six that's a big deal.

175
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 1: Right back in nineteen eighty seven, the length of PGA

176
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,480
Speaker 1: West was a real defense. It is no longer a defense,

177
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,240
Speaker 1: especially when players can hit driver and then more generally,

178
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,240
Speaker 1: I just think the PGA West design is slightly watered

179
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 1: down in a few respects from the one at Sagrass.

180
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,200
Speaker 1: The greens are definitely more receptive, you know, they have

181
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 1: these kind of feeding contours and maybe fewer rejecting contours.

182
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 1: You can just look at the island green at seventeen

183
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 1: at PGA West. It's longer than the TPC Sawgrass hole,

184
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,560
Speaker 1: but the green is bigger and flatter, and the hole

185
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 1: just doesn't have that intimidation factor at all. Now I

186
00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 1: still think the PGA West stadium course is very architecturally interesting.

187
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: The built features are super cool looking, the strategic concepts

188
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: are very smart, but it does represent a backing off

189
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,800
Speaker 1: from the original stadium course of vision. And then after

190
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,000
Speaker 1: PGA West, we just didn't get the wave of stadium

191
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 1: courses that people might have been expecting. Maybe you could

192
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:25,400
Speaker 1: call TPC Scottsdale Tom Weiscoff design a stadium course, but

193
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,920
Speaker 1: it's really the build out there that creates the stadium effect.

194
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 1: TPC River Highlands in Connecticut has some stadium aspects designed

195
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: by Pete Die, but the front nine is really just

196
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,560
Speaker 1: a housing development course. And then you do have you

197
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,360
Speaker 1: have some of the recent European Ryder Cup venues like

198
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,679
Speaker 1: the Golf National and Marcos Simone, which definitely take inspiration

199
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,319
Speaker 1: from TPC Sawgrass. Maybe don't go all the way with

200
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,600
Speaker 1: like the permanent spectator infrastructure, but I do see the

201
00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 1: stadium idea living on a little bit in those venues.

202
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,920
Speaker 1: For the most part, though, the stadium course idea is

203
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,680
Speaker 1: basically dead, and there have been some opportunities to revive it. Recently,

204
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,560
Speaker 1: the PGA of America just built a new headquarters in Frisco, Texas,

205
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,000
Speaker 1: and they hired Gilhanson bo Welling to design a pair

206
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,280
Speaker 1: of golf courses meant to host championships. But for reasons

207
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,440
Speaker 1: that surpass my understanding, neither course appears to be all

208
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 1: that well suited to galleries. I mean, this would have

209
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,760
Speaker 1: been a great opportunity to build a modern stadium golf course,

210
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: and they just didn't. I'm not even sure that it

211
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 1: occurred to the PGA of America to do that. So

212
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: why is it that the notion of a stadium course

213
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,720
Speaker 1: has withered on the vine in this way. I've got

214
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 1: a couple of thoughts about that. One is that PGA

215
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,720
Speaker 1: West might have become sort of a cautionary tale. The

216
00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,840
Speaker 1: developers went to all this trouble to build a stadium

217
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,640
Speaker 1: course in the desert and then the pros rejected it.

218
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,720
Speaker 1: For thirty years it was just hosting Skins games and

219
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,560
Speaker 1: Q school tournaments. It's a major risk to construct a

220
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 1: stadium course when this might be the outcome. And relatedly,

221
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,080
Speaker 1: another theory I have is that the PGA Tour, PGA

222
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 1: of America and USGA don't really have an appetite for

223
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 1: the golf course business anymore, and the risks inherent in

224
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,160
Speaker 1: the golf course business. They are chasing TV rights deals

225
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 1: right now and in the case of the PGA Tour,

226
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 1: private equity money. These are much bigger pots of cash

227
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,520
Speaker 1: than the golf course industry can provide now. Obviously, the

228
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 1: PGA Tour does have the TPC network, but it's not

229
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,440
Speaker 1: clear to me how committed the tour is to that network.

230
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,320
Speaker 1: They have been offloading some courses recently, so with the

231
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 1: exception of PGA Frisco, I just wouldn't expect to see

232
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,760
Speaker 1: a lot of new, purpose built tournament venues in the

233
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:12,359
Speaker 1: coming years. Finally, I'd say that the major golf organizations

234
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,920
Speaker 1: have just lost a little bit of verve and ambition

235
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 1: and vision. It wasn't that long ago that Mike Davis

236
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,840
Speaker 1: and the USGA were putting their weight behind a big

237
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: renovation at Bethpage Black and then a big municipal new

238
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,240
Speaker 1: build at Chambers Bay. That kind of thing just isn't

239
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: happening anymore, you know. The PGA Tour, the PGA of

240
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,600
Speaker 1: America and the USGA have grown pretty tentative, pretty conservative,

241
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 1: and that means that they're going to go to tried

242
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,040
Speaker 1: and true traditional venues for the most part, and they're

243
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 1: taking fewer big swings at creating the great new championship

244
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,200
Speaker 1: golf course. Even the PGA Frisco project, which was ambitious

245
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:05,080
Speaker 1: in some respects, doesn't seem to have had full conviction

246
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,320
Speaker 1: behind it. The PGA of America should have been trying

247
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 1: to build the next great championship golf course, but it

248
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,639
Speaker 1: seems like they were just kind of fine with a

249
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: couple of okay golf courses. And that ultimately is why

250
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: the idea of a stadium course appeals to me. It's

251
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: a big vision for a different kind of golf course.

252
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 1: The stadium courses at TPC Sawgrass and PGA West weren't

253
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,640
Speaker 1: just trying to be acceptable to as many people as possible.

254
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 1: They were trying to be the hardest, baddest, best championship

255
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,840
Speaker 1: venues in golf. And they may have fallen short in

256
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 1: some ways, but the developers and the architects behind those

257
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,199
Speaker 1: courses went for it, and I want to see more

258
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,320
Speaker 1: of that attitude now. If you'd like to see more

259
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: in depth analyzes of both TPC Sawgrass and PGA West,

260
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 1: you can find our profiles of both courses on Frida

261
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 1: Egg Golf Club. Fridagg Golf Club is our membership. It's

262
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty dollars a year and members get

263
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: a lot of benefits, including access to our growing library

264
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,680
Speaker 1: of course profiles. This week, we just published my colleague

265
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,720
Speaker 1: Cameron Hurdis's profile of the PGA West Stadium course. It

266
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,639
Speaker 1: has Cameron's thoughts on the course as well as his

267
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: terrific photos of every whole. So if you're an FEGC member,

268
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 1: you can check out that profile right now. If you're

269
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,680
Speaker 1: not a member, go to the Frida egg dot com

270
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: slash membership and join us. All right, Next up, I'm

271
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,240
Speaker 1: bringing on Tim Lyddy to discuss the PGA West Stadium Course.

272
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 1: Tim is a veteran golf architect who worked with Pete

273
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,240
Speaker 1: Dye off and on from nineteen ninety one to mister

274
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: Dy's death in twenty twenty. Tim also has his own

275
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 1: solo practice, and in twenty twenty four he completed a

276
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 1: major renovation of the PGA West Stadium course. So I

277
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,680
Speaker 1: thought it would be fun to get Tim's thoughts on

278
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 1: the course's design and learn more about the work he

279
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 1: did there. All right, let's get to it, all right,

280
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 1: I am here with the architect Tim Lyddy. Tim, thank

281
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,439
Speaker 1: you for joining me. How are you doing today?

282
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,560
Speaker 2: Great? Great? It's eight degrees with twenty twenty miles an

283
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,320
Speaker 2: hour wind, so it's a bit brutal here in Indiana today.

284
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,439
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you're in Indiana. It's pretty cold here in Portland, Oregon,

285
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,280
Speaker 1: so I can imagine that over there in the Midwest.

286
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,640
Speaker 1: It's savage right now.

287
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: It's crazy, it's crazy. All right.

288
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about some warmer climbs. PGA West, the

289
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,679
Speaker 1: Stadium course you recently did some renovation work there. But

290
00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,640
Speaker 1: before getting into that, I'd like to just discuss the course. Generally,

291
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 1: I find it to be a fascinating golf course and

292
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: just you know, in general, the notion of a stadium

293
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 1: course is very interesting to me as well. So what

294
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 1: to you is special about the design of the PGA

295
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: West Stadium Course.

296
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 2: What is special? Well, how much time do we have, Garrett.

297
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 1: Well, maybe you could just imagine that, you know, you're

298
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: talking about with somebody who's never heard of it before.

299
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: What would be kind of the angle that you would

300
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,159
Speaker 1: take on talking about why this course is distinctive.

301
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 2: Let's go big picture and we can go down smaller

302
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: and smaller. So big picture, what's cool about it is

303
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,439
Speaker 2: that it's a flat, desert desert environment. Flat is you know,

304
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: anything you're going to see. So the first thing they

305
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 2: did is they the routing is two golf holes wide.

306
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 2: It's a residential golf community and so that's about six

307
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 2: hundred seven hundred feet and they cut that down four feet,

308
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 2: and they flipped the earth up on both sides and

309
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 2: brought the homes up four feet. So now you have

310
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: an eight foot of vertical separation, which really helps, you know,

311
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 2: separate the homes from the from the golf to a

312
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 2: large degree. Then they had all kinds of earth left.

313
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 2: And so they mounted in between these two corridors typically,

314
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 2: and I think this is where Pete was in his

315
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: career where he said, okay, just go, you know, just

316
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 2: go carve it up. I'll look at it. We'll carve

317
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: it up some more. And they would do several, several,

318
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 2: several iterations of that until they got something that they liked.

319
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 2: And I think mister Die was just then learning about

320
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 2: three dimensions and and and he would call it double dimension.

321
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,959
Speaker 2: He'd like to see a mound and another mound behind it,

322
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 2: and another mound on and on and on and see

323
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 2: that dimension which would give you some depth and all

324
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 2: the shadows in the desert that you get. Really, you know,

325
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: it came alive. And then he had a client that said,

326
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 2: we want the hardest golf course you can build, bar none.

327
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: And these were golf pros, which you know, most clients

328
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: are not golf pros. So having a golf pro as

329
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 2: a client is wonderful because they get it. They understand

330
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: golf is first, you know, that's that comes first, the

331
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 2: housing a second, and so they talked about how hard

332
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: it should be and what makes it hard. And you know,

333
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 2: so the bunkers are deep, the holes turn, you know, aggressively,

334
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 2: the greens are or severe in some areas, typical die

335
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 2: greens where they would turn hard right to left or

336
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: left or right. He was a big proponent of kind

337
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 2: of dictatorial design. You know, I'm gonna make you had

338
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: a cutshot or I'm going to make you hit a draw,

339
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: and we're going to balance those shots. You're going to

340
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: have nine cut t shots, you're going to have nine

341
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,399
Speaker 2: approach shots the same way. So so it didn't really

342
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 2: give anyone an advantage if you hit a draw all

343
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 2: the time or you hit a cut all the time.

344
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: Something that's notable about the stadium course at PGA West

345
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: is its use of angles. Right, you can look at

346
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 1: the golf holes there and sort of see where the

347
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: green is oriented, trace that back into the fair way

348
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: and and see, you know what dangers there are for

349
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,919
Speaker 1: getting to that position that will allow you access to

350
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: the green. This is maybe something that's that's not noted

351
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: very often about Pete Dye, but he did seem to

352
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: incorporate a sense of kind of classical strategic angles into

353
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: his designs.

354
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: Very much so. And I guess what you could say too,

355
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: is that all good architects use angles. They all do

356
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 2: some disguise it better than others others. And to me,

357
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,719
Speaker 2: mister die was very literal. You know. He'd put that

358
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 2: hard edge angle across the fairway and juxtaposed it against

359
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: whatever is out there, you know, mounding and all of that.

360
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 2: But you'd have that he loved that hard edge and

361
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: that was a shot value to him as well, is

362
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 2: that he wanted you to see that ball go over

363
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: that edge and where it should be, you know, where

364
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: did it land. He didn't want to wiggle because it

365
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 2: would be blind and you couldn't see where your ball

366
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: went over the edge. So he do that on a green.

367
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,640
Speaker 2: He'd do it on a fairway and usually would counter

368
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: those edges right to left one way, left or right

369
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: the other, and vice versa. So he loved that hard edge,

370
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: and again is for the golfer. The golfer could see

371
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: if he made it over or not. And then he

372
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,439
Speaker 2: would do it hard on water, you know, which everyone

373
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: hates because oh no, right, you're in the water. And

374
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: I think he brought water to golf design, you know,

375
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: to scare everybody to death. I think that's the fear

376
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 2: factor that that he really brought. So how would you

377
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: how would you.

378
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: Describe his approach to green design at the PGA West Course.

379
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 2: Let's start at the beginning, I guess. So almost ninety

380
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: nine percent of his greens are open in the front.

381
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: So why is that that's the average golfer can bump

382
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: it on the green. Uh, And he usually would have

383
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: a shoulder. If the green was turning to the right,

384
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: he'd have a big shoulder on the left that would

385
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 2: kick that ball, feed the ball for the average player

386
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: to the you know, back right er middle of the green.

387
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 2: Then he'd have shoulders around the greens to kind of

388
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: just add confusion, add some blindness. He would like to

389
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: blind the middle of a green, but he always wanted

390
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: to see the back hole location. So we did that

391
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: quite a quite a bit and and recaptured some of

392
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:09,479
Speaker 2: that in the restoration of the stadium. His greens always

393
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: play smaller than they look, and so a pet die

394
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 2: green in the middle of the green is relatively flat

395
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: and soft, like one two percent one and a half

396
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: a lot that we found at the stadium. But around

397
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: the edges they go off three or four percent, five percent,

398
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: shoulders would come in five percent, so forth up to

399
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: seven all the way off the green. So what does

400
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: that do, Well, you have a straight put you're in

401
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: the Don't tell anybody this because it's kind of a secret,

402
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: but you'd have a straight put in the middle of

403
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: the green where the whole locations would be, and your

404
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: eye is looking at the edges of the green. You're

405
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: you're relating the surface of the green to the outside perimeter,

406
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: and so it looks like it's going to break more

407
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: than it breaks, so it might be one and a

408
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: half percent. It looks like it's going to fly off

409
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: the edge of the green. So a combination of that,

410
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: and he would turn the back corners of his greens

411
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: so that he really was asking a good player to

412
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: work that golf ball into that corner left or right,

413
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: right to the left. There was not a lot of

414
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: depth in those back corners, but a lot of big

415
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: area in the front of the greens again for the

416
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: average player to bump it hit it on. So then

417
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 2: at the stadium, the surrounds of the greens. You know,

418
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: I did a lot of work with him on club

419
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: golf courses, so we'd have a lot of trouble on

420
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 2: one side, and we'd have, you know, a bailout area

421
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: on the other. Stadium course, forget it. You know, there's

422
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: trouble everywhere left, you know, left side, right side. You've

423
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 2: got to have to pick your trouble. And depending on

424
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: where that whole location is, a bunker might be a

425
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: better bailout than a chipping area. Right.

426
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: So you have these greens, you have this highly manufactured

427
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: environment that you were describing earlier. You have this use

428
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 1: of angles, so this is kind of These are sort

429
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: of some of the component parts of the of the

430
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: PGA West Stadium Course. But you know, I'm curious about

431
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: this term stadium course. Oh obviously it's also applied to

432
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: the TPC Sawgrass Stadium Course. But when you look at

433
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: at PGA West, what makes it a stadium course in

434
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: your mind?

435
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: You know, I'm guessing that they had nine golf courses eventually,

436
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: so they wanted to have one that was more of

437
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: a tournament golf course. And so I think stadium and

438
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: tournament is probably the same as it, you know, are

439
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: the same kind of terms. That'd be my guess, because

440
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't look like a stadium golf course at all.

441
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: Right, Well, if I'm comparing and contrasting TPC Sawgrass with

442
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: PGA West, TPC Sawgrass is much more overt about its

443
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: stadium elements. I mean, especially at the beginning when they

444
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: have those you know, grass bleachers and those those big

445
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: islands in the middle of the lakes where people could stand.

446
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: And you know, they've gotten rid of some of that

447
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: over time, but you can still see the kind of

448
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: stadium bowl effect at a lot of holes at TPC

449
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: Sawgrass that doesn't seem to have been carried through at

450
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: PGA West as much.

451
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: I think it's just a term I really do to

452
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: designate it differently than the Nicolas Court. I think there's

453
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: a Nicholas tournament course. Yes, well, I think it's just

454
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: it's more of a name than it is anything that's actual.

455
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: In my very interesting Yeah, So that the last thing

456
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm I want to pick out of of what you're

457
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: saying about about the Dye's design approach at PGA West.

458
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: It has to do with his use of artificiality. You know,

459
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: if you there, there are many you know, architects both

460
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: current and past, who very much prize and prized naturalism

461
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: trying to make everything look as though it had always

462
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: been there. I don't think that was a priority for

463
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: Pete Die at this particular golf course, or at many

464
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: of his golf courses. So what would you say about

465
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: Diye's attitude toward artificiality and he's his use of the

466
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: kind of obviously manufactured in his designs. Is that something

467
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: kind of he thought about consciously and implemented at his

468
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,719
Speaker 1: courses with some intention.

469
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a story. I'm working with him on

470
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: the design of a golf course. I'll keep it unnamed.

471
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: And there was an old housing pad part three. Go

472
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: down and back up to this housing pad, and there

473
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: was a wandering creek along the left side. And I

474
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: roughed in or I had the crew rough end a

475
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: grain on top of this pad where the house was

476
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: look great. It looked great. And he walked out in

477
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: his typical language, you know, what what are you doing here?

478
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: I go, Well, it was there, you know, hill was

479
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: already there. I go it was natural, and he said,

480
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: he said, he goes, No, the green belongs over there,

481
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: and sometimes mother nature needs a little hand. So I

482
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: got the hint, right, I got the hint. And he

483
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: would also say if it was natural, golf course wouldn't

484
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: be here. So so what he what I'd like? And

485
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: it's a total. You know, there's there's some people like vanilla,

486
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: some people like chocolate. So what I love about what

487
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,719
Speaker 2: he did is that he just said, if it's abstract,

488
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: let's just go for it. Let's just keep it going.

489
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: How far can I go? Yeah, I wanted to look

490
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: like Scotland. It's never going to look like Scotland, but

491
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: I can have those design elements and I can have

492
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: some of my thoughts behind, you know, the balance and

493
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: the shot value. So I would argue that every golf

494
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: course is an abstraction, no matter how natural it's supposed

495
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: to be, It's an abstraction. Everything we do is as

496
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: golf course architecture is an abstraction. And I love this.

497
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: I had this quote about Dan Kylie, who was my

498
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: favorite landscape architect. I don't know if you know much

499
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: about landscape architecture, but he went to Europe, went to Paris,

500
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: all the alleys of trees and the grids of trees,

501
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: and he brought that back and did it in residential design.

502
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: And he did it. He worked with Sarazon, a very

503
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: famous architect he did the arch and all of that. Well,

504
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: he did all these beautiful grids throughout all these great,

505
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 2: big parks throughout the nation. So Dan Kylie was a

506
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 2: great guy, and he didn't shy away from the hand

507
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: of man. And when you have that hand of man again,

508
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: juxtaposed against the natural environment, it's it's strong, it's you know,

509
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: it's a great statement. It's powerful. It's powerful. When everything

510
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: is natural, it's like a counterfeit. It has no power. Yeah.

511
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think most, if not all golf architects would

512
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: would acknowledge that the use of the hand of man

513
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: is necessary in order to create a functional golf course.

514
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: But I guess the difference of opinion comes in what

515
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: you do after the hand of man has intervened. Do

516
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: you then try to blend the artificial work back into

517
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: the natural environment and make it look as though it

518
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: hadn't even been manufactured? Mackenzie right camouflage? Or are you

519
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: okay with the viewer recognizing the distinction between the surrounding

520
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: natural environment and what you did at the golf course?

521
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: And I suppose that that die more than many golf

522
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: architects working now, including architects who trained with him, was

523
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: comfortable with kind of leaving artificial looking stuff in a

524
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: golf course environment that people would recognize as artificial. But

525
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting looking, right, and that's that's the

526
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: justification for it being there.

527
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: And it's great to have both. That's what's great, you know,

528
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: to have. You know, look at Rayner. You know, we

529
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: all love Rayner. I'm sure Rayner influenced Die. I mean that,

530
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: you know, strong, bold, simple statements into the you know,

531
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: against the natural environment. I think we all love that. Look,

532
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: we don't know exactly why. I mean, I I know,

533
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: I think I know why because it's simple number one.

534
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: We can understand it. It's not too complicated, and it's

535
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: just you know that juxtaposition is a great art form.

536
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, And at PGA West there there wasn't a

537
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: whole lot of a natural environment to work with. It

538
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: was beautiful, but the ground itself was not particularly well

539
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: suited to golf. And I think that something I wish

540
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: they would show better on the telecasts of the PGA

541
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: Tour tournament that's played there every year is the ground

542
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: level view of the features at PGA West, which are

543
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: very interesting, right, They're really compelling looking shapes in the ground,

544
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: but when you have that camera view from up above,

545
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: it all kind of gets flattened out and becomes less interesting.

546
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: But it's actually a really cool looking golf course from

547
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: the ground, isn't it.

548
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: It is? And it brings up this point that I

549
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: love about Guy's work at that golf course is that

550
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 2: there'd be a lot of stuff going everywhere, and then

551
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,479
Speaker 2: there'd be a piece that's very contrasting, big shadow mark,

552
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,280
Speaker 2: you know, be a bunker, let's say, a huge bunker,

553
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 2: and then right here it's really steep, so that's strong. Well,

554
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: that's your that's your shot line. He would he would

555
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: show you that shot line in all of this abstraction,

556
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, boom, and he would do that at Greens

557
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 2: he would do that fairway bunkers, which I just thought was,

558
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 2: you know, genius stuff. Yeah, that's shaping, that's sculpture.

559
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about the work that

560
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: you and your team did fairly recently at at the

561
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: Stadium course at at PGA West. This was a twenty

562
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: twenty three, twenty twenty four project that had its debut

563
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: at last year's American Express Tournament. And I'm curious about

564
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: what you did at the course, because it is kind

565
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: of part of this what I'd call a micro trend

566
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: of Pete Dye restorations that have happened recently. You don't

567
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: typically think of Pete Die courses as being the subject

568
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: of restoration. That's usually applied to courses, you know, that

569
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: were that were built earlier. But recently we have seen

570
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: you know, Tom Doak work at at Crooked Stick, We've

571
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: seen Gil Hant's work at the Honors Course. We've seen

572
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: Jim or Bina at lob Lolly and kind of and

573
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: we've seen Davis Love's firm work at Harbor Town and

574
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: a little bit at TPC Sawgrass and so there there's

575
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: a little bit of momentum building for bringing back some

576
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: of mister Dye's original features and your project, to my mind,

577
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: is kind of part of that micro trend. So what

578
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: was the impetus for this this renovation project from the

579
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 1: perspective of PGA West, Why did they want to have

580
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 1: work done and why did they bring you in?

581
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: It was built in eighty six, really had not been

582
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: touched since then, so the greens had shrunk a lot

583
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 2: twenty feet in some areas, So greens that were originally

584
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: against the bulkhead. We're now fifteen feet away from the bullhead,

585
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: so your whole locations were twenty feet away from the water.

586
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: So they wanted to get the whole locations back to

587
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: the water's edge. So even though the green would get larger,

588
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 2: it would play harder. You'd make it. You can have

589
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: harder whole locations. Agronomically, you know, you've got to. In

590
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: the desert, you get a lot of organic material. And

591
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 2: so we took six inches of top top dressing off

592
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 2: the greens, went down to the original green surfaces, which

593
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: were very easy to find, floated them out, you know,

594
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: checked them, tried to some of the longer slopes we

595
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 2: would shorten to add some whole locations. But they were

596
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: relatively soft. I couldn't believe how soft they were for

597
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, except the edges, like he loved to

598
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: get them. So the biggest challenge for us on the

599
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: desert was to make sure the water surface the surface

600
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: water got off the greens because they were that soft

601
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 2: in many areas. So that was the big challenge, and

602
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: did that very well. The PGA tour was involved a

603
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: little bit and they wanted some whole locations for the

604
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 2: tournaments that we helped, you know, accommodate, and so really

605
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: I think we restored the greens to what they were

606
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 2: in eighty six. And I asked the client, what do

607
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: you want? You want eighty six, you want twenty twenty,

608
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 2: you want nineteen ninety five, what kind of die do

609
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: you want? You know, I was around you for thirty years,

610
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: and they really wanted it to be eighty six. So

611
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: that's what we did. So there wasn't a lot of

612
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 2: design to it. There was just a lot of archaeological

613
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: you know, discovery. Oh look what look what they lost here,

614
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: you know, look what's gone and put it back.

615
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, so you're talking about some of the green

616
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: expansions just you know, pushing out mowing lines. This classic

617
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: thing that happens to a lot of golf courses over time,

618
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: that the greens kind of creep in because of just

619
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: maintenance attrition, and then you know, you can do a

620
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: lot by just pushing them back out. You get some

621
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: pins back. And it's a good esthetic too, right, because

622
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: that it may be a little more intimidating because there's

623
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: not that buffer of rough between the you know, the

624
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: green and the surrounding hazards, so that was one element

625
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: of the project. Of course, there was also quite a

626
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: bit of bunker work as well. Tell me about that.

627
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: Bunkers and a lot of new drain each but bunkers,

628
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: and this is typical of all Bermuda golf courses. Bermuda

629
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 2: over time, you can't really verify it out. So the

630
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: organic layer, you know, bermuda grows up and up and up.

631
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: So can you imagine over you know, thirty forty, fifty

632
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: sixty years, you know, so, and the sand in these

633
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: bunkers are flatish. In a die bunker, you know, grass

634
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: faces flatterish. So in a matter of five years or less,

635
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: the front of the bunker, the organic material, the bermuda

636
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: blocks the sand. So all of a sudden, no one

637
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: can see the sand in the bunkers, and so the

638
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: members are complaining. So that what's the superintendent do. He

639
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: goes and edges up the backside of the bunker. And

640
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 2: that's a continual process for twenty years, and all of

641
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: a sudden they look like fasio bunkers when you're done,

642
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: you know, they're all flashed up in every cove in

643
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: the end. So so explaining that to owners is half

644
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 2: of what I do on a project like this is

645
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: what do you mean? It's not? This isn't what he built.

646
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 2: You know, you've got to explain how bermuda changes. So

647
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: it actually looks like you had these sharp edges when

648
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: you build it, and then over time it just kind

649
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: of melts. The bunker looks like it just melts in place.

650
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: And so just putting back the green edges, the bunker edges,

651
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: you know, those edges really made the golf course pop.

652
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 2: And I even tried to make him as edgy as

653
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: I could. But with a sand, we you know, we

654
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: went back to what was there originally.

655
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: So what what was kind of the style of the

656
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: original bunkers at PGA West. You know, you mentioned that

657
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: they kind of evolved into more of your kind of

658
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: flash faced, scoopy bunk that you might might see it

659
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: at many courses, But what was what was that aesthetic

660
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: and that that shaping style originally?

661
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: So the floor of a die bunker is typically about

662
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: a foot above the fairway the floor, and then the

663
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 2: sand is in that floor. That way you can see

664
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: that sand even though it's flatish, and then there's a

665
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 2: I call it an eyebrow behind that bunker that usually

666
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 2: is directed at the target, whether that's the green or fairway.

667
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: And why mister Die loved those eyebrows is he said,

668
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 2: pretend I sand, just like at Scotland, had been you know,

669
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 2: hit out of this bunker for one hundred years, what

670
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: would happen. It would just build up and point at

671
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: the target. And so that's that's the look that he loved.

672
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 2: And that's you know, we put that back where it

673
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 2: was gone. You know, it was gone and a lot

674
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: of times superintendent's over time, the second or third Superintendent's

675
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 2: go I'm tired of moment on this, I'm gonna knock

676
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: it down right. And we had original photos, so that

677
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: was that helped us quite a bit.

678
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: So that's interesting. He wanted his new bunkers to look

679
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: as though they had been used over a great amount

680
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: of time.

681
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: Yes, and so when you when you hit sand out

682
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: of a bunker for one hundred years, it gets really

683
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 2: steep at the edge of the bunker and then really

684
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: long towards the target. It's kind of it'd be easy

685
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: to explain, you know, if I was showing you a

686
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 2: bunker bit anyway.

687
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: No, you can see it.

688
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, so it's I call it an eyebrown, and

689
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: then there are shoulders around that it also do that

690
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: and you know the other thing. I don't know for sure,

691
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: but I don't know when the knuckle bucket came about.

692
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: But there's some such there's some like cool stuff here.

693
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 2: I'm going, I wonder if they did that by hand

694
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: or with a knuckle bucket, because you know, it's changed.

695
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: It's changed golf architecture, the knuckle bucket. Yeah, especially in

696
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 2: the last decade or two.

697
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: So well, describe what a knucklebucket is for for people

698
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: haven't seen it before.

699
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: Knuckle Buckets usually on a smallish excavator and instead of

700
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 2: just doing a bucket like this, you can move it

701
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: like a hand. You can carve anything you want. And

702
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 2: of course these guys get so good, you know, they

703
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 2: can shave us with that bucket they wanted to. They

704
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: get so good at it. The hardest part though about

705
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: that is they're sitting in the machine, so they have

706
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: a hard time looking beyond what they can see, you know.

707
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the knuckle bucket has become pretty popular in

708
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: recent golf architecture. Actually, I've talked to the restoration architect

709
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: and he does new courses as well Andrew Green about

710
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: using a knuckle bucket to kind of pound out little

711
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: details in bunker faces. Absolutely, Basically, what it allows you

712
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 1: to do is kind of like detail work with a

713
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: big machine. So you know, typically when you're using big machines,

714
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: it's a little hard to do the kind of fiddly

715
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: little stuff. Well, when you have that knuckle bucket, you

716
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: can kind of get then there and and do some

717
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: nobbly little details. And so that's so you don't even

718
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: know this. You know, it's possible that that I was

719
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: maybe doing some of this with with his bunkers and

720
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: that's how he got his details, or or maybe it

721
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:13,479
Speaker 1: was done by hand.

722
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: I would think it was done by hand or just

723
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: very diligently with a straight bunker, you know, a straight bucket.

724
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

725
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 2: Wow. And then because you can turn the machine then

726
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: and you have to turn the machine instead of the bucket.

727
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: M that's very interesting. We're getting very in the weeds there,

728
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: but that kind of stuff is uh, that kind of

729
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 1: stuff is fascinating to me. So we've talked about bunkers,

730
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: we've talked about greens. Is there anything else that you

731
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: wanted to touch on with the renovation project?

732
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: That you did. Oh yeah, look at notes real quick.

733
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: Sure.

734
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: I think I think we covered covered it as an

735
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 2: overview pretty well. I guess the trees we took out

736
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: a lot of trees, and for a desert golf course,

737
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: I think it helped the look of the golf course immensely,

738
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: especially on television. You know, a desert golf course line

739
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: with trees didn't really look like a desert golf course.

740
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: So as tough as that was initial step, it really helped,

741
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: you know, that particular golf course quite a bit.

742
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: So trees had kind of been planted over time at

743
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 1: at PGA West, just you know, just gradually, and you

744
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 1: you stripped quite a few of those away to recapture

745
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: the feeling of that desert environment right right.

746
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 2: The other thing that I guess you would enjoy a

747
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: lot is that Pete was a big proponent of the

748
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: line of charm. And he didn't talk about it like that,

749
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 2: he didn't have a term for it, but he was

750
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 2: always you know, there's nothing more more boring than standing

751
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 2: at the end of a straight fairway and looking and

752
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 2: there's nothing between you and the green. So he would

753
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,399
Speaker 2: always swing something in front of of of that view

754
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 2: to support again usually the right to left or left

755
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 2: or right. So he was he was a big proponent

756
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: of that, and that added the fear factor and the

757
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: you know, the foreshortening and did all those great things

758
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 2: that he's known for, you know, hiding stuff all all

759
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 2: over the place, hiding.

760
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: Visual deception. Yeah, well, you say, line of charm. This

761
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: is a term, you know, invented by Max Bear, you know,

762
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 1: more than one hundred years ago, and essentially what Bear

763
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: meant by it, and I should devote an entire episode

764
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: just to this term because it is kind of complex,

765
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: but essentially Max Bear was saying, you know, the line,

766
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: the true line that the players want to play shouldn't

767
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: just be straight down the middle of the fairway. The

768
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 1: architects should always be doing something to break up that

769
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: that direct line to the whole and kind of motivate

770
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: players to swing out to edges of fairways and take

771
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: an interesting path to the whole. So part of the

772
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: role of the architect is to is to just like

773
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: break up that straight line to the whole and make

774
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: golf more interesting and dynamic.

775
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 2: And a very simple way to do that is a

776
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: center line bunker m and mister did hardly ever did that.

777
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: I found that interesting. He'd want to slide the whole

778
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: fareaway one way or the other. He wouldn't say, let's

779
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: put something he wouldn't he wouldn't want to do it.

780
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean maybe maybe because he knew clients, you know,

781
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: would would sort of rebel against that idea. And in

782
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: the time that he was designing courses, I don't really know.

783
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: So the reason for not doing center line bunkers is

784
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: that you put him at maybe three hundred yards, Well,

785
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: that would be the second shot of a lady, and

786
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: so he would he didn't like that. You know, you're

787
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: going to catch the second shot of a lady more

788
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: than you are the t shot of the back teeth player.

789
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 1: That's that's interesting. That's good to know. Yeah, okay, Well,

790
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: he was very attentive to how different types of players

791
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: would play his golf courses at PGA West specifically, I

792
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: know he did a lot of work with the with

793
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: the forward t's, making sure that they were well positioned.

794
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: And this was of course something that that his wife,

795
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: Alice Dye would would insist upon and was kind of

796
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: a guru for the placement of forward ts.

797
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. She was great and a great player. You know,

798
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: a better golfer. He won the Indiana Amateur, but she

799
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,439
Speaker 2: I think she won the Florida Amateur a couple of times. Yeah,

800
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: Ary player a great team. You know, they were a

801
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 2: great team, no question.

802
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: So looking at the course post renovation, Yeah, it's not

803
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: to me, it's the It's not as important to say

804
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: is it tougher than to say.

805
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: Is it better?

806
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: But let's start with whether you think it is tougher

807
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: for the pros to play this this golf course post renovation?

808
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: Do you think it has become more challenging?

809
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 2: Can I can? I let me turn the discussion a

810
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 2: little bit, because I think this is an interesting question

811
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: I have. I have that you could develop, and that

812
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: is was this the last course ever built that was

813
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: stronger or more tougher than golf equipment? You know, in

814
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: the eighty six the pro say we're never coming back

815
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 2: here to play this golf course again.

816
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: They signed they thought it was too hard.

817
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, Now they love it and it has an

818
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 2: amateur tournament on it. You know, it's a pro am.

819
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: It's not even a professional tournament. I mean it is,

820
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 2: but it's a it's a pro am tournament. So so

821
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: golf equipment has just you know, gone right by it

822
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: right with middle heads and cavity back irons and you know,

823
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 2: great teaching. So I think it's a discussion. Is this

824
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: the last, the very last course that was stronger than

825
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: than the pro golfer? I don't know.

826
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: It depends on what you want to say about setup.

827
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,800
Speaker 1: You know, there have been US opens since nineteen eighty

828
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: six that overwhelmed the pros, but mostly for reasons other

829
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: than design, right, mostly for reasons of the firmness of

830
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: the golf course or the narrowness or the height or

831
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: the rough Yeah, yeah, et cetera. It does It does

832
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: seem that, you know, what was remarkable about about the

833
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: Stadium course at PGA West in nineteen eighty six is

834
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: that it was really kind of pure design that made

835
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: the golf course so hard, and that's that's pretty rare

836
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: now it's in fact, it's hard to do that now.

837
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So back to your question, is it harder

838
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: today than it was? I think they can set it

839
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: up a bit harder. Again. They've got access to edges

840
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 2: or they didn't have before, so they can put whole

841
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 2: locations to the edges. I added a few bunkers on

842
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 2: the on the bailout side of a couple par fives,

843
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: so that they're not hitting wedges to a par five

844
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: now they're hitting a nine iron to a par five.

845
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: So so I don't know, you know, you just can't stop.

846
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: These guys are too good. I don't think it plays

847
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 2: any harder. What's great, though, is that this developer hired

848
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: a or a management company, hired a couple of great superintendents,

849
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: and so the conditioning of the golf course is probably

850
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: the best it's ever been in you know that I've

851
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 2: been aware of it. It's really good. Brian Sullivan was

852
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: at Wiltshire and bel Air before he came, and he's

853
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 2: the director of golf and they've got a young guy

854
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: that's Denver Heart. He's again the golf courses, and I

855
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: think the pros get that, you know, they appreciate it.

856
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 2: You know, they say these are the best greens we

857
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 2: play all year, because in those two weeks in the

858
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 2: desert they could be the best. You know, just like

859
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: in any climate, there's a certain window where you can

860
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 2: get every thing perfect right, and when when you oversee

861
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 2: grains in the desert, this is your window right here is.

862
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: There a specific hole at PGA West that you think

863
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: people should pay attention to it when it comes up

864
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: on the telecast and kind of look at as an

865
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: interesting hole at the stadium course.

866
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 2: Well, sixteen, I think sixteen, seven and seventeen are great,

867
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 2: great holes, and you know the pucker factor is strong

868
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: on both of those, especially for the amateur. You know,

869
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: it's a pro am so the amateur player, eighteen is

870
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 2: a bit of a disappointment to be because they hit

871
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: three woods I think typically off the tee to avoid

872
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 2: the bunker complexes. But it's a fun golf course. It

873
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 2: really is fun for these people that you know, the

874
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 2: greens are fun. They can get out of the bunkers

875
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: that used to be you know, awful. You know, now

876
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 2: there are sixty degree wedges. You can get out of these.

877
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: They can get out of them.

878
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: That's true. One that's true on sixteen, where you know,

879
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: essentially the world's deepest bunker just left of the green

880
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: that used to be, you know, a place from which

881
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: people had trouble recovering. Now you know, you can expect

882
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: pros to get out of there if they get in there, And.

883
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: We softened the left side of the green for more

884
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: whole locations on sixteen. Whether they'll use them or not,

885
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:27,959
Speaker 2: I don't know. And you know how pros they're so smart,

886
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 2: they're going to play off to the right and put

887
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 2: back you know they're gonna they don't. They don't challenge

888
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 2: much anymore.

889
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: Well, when you look at the sixteenth hole, what is

890
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: it about that hole that makes it great or interesting

891
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: to you?

892
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: The trouble is severe even off the tee. The bunkering

893
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: is twenty feet deep. So but again it kind of

894
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 2: comes back to things that we have talked about in

895
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: the past, and that in this interview is that in

896
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 2: eighty six, golf ball curve a lot. Right, it doesn't

897
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: curve anymore. So I don't know if it's as terrifying

898
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 2: as it is today as it was in you know,

899
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 2: eighty six, or just because the golf ball doesn't curve,

900
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: so these guys can hit. They probably aim at the

901
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 2: middle of the grain and curve it left where and

902
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 2: then off the tee again, there's plenty of room for

903
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: them to aim at the right edge of the fairway

904
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: and curve at their ten feet of curve, you know,

905
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,240
Speaker 2: of their hook, and they're they're fine.

906
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: Well, this raises an interesting question to me if you

907
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: were building a stadium course now and trying to create

908
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: a venue that would truly put the fear of God

909
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: into current tour pros with their ball that doesn't curve,

910
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: and you know their their their equipment and their bodies

911
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: that they make the ball go so far, what would

912
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: you do?

913
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 2: Like?

914
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 1: What are what are some of the tactics that that

915
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: you might use from a design side to to challenge them.

916
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,479
Speaker 2: You know, the best thing is firm and fast, don't

917
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,839
Speaker 2: you think. I mean, look at the old course. When

918
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 2: the old course, when the fairways were as fast as

919
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 2: the greens, they didn't score that well. So it's all

920
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,720
Speaker 2: about I think the ground surface more than it is angle.

921
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: I mean, angles are important if it's firm and fast.

922
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 2: If it's soft, angles don't matter. So firm and fast

923
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 2: it's got to be. And I'm sure that this week

924
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: it will be firm and fast. I hope it's the desert.

925
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: You know, they should be able to get it firm

926
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: and fast.

927
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 1: Right. Well, when you when you bring overseating into the equation,

928
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: that's when it starts to slow down a little bit, right.

929
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 2: That's right, But for a week you can do it yeah, anyone.

930
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: Well, they can do anything now with agronomy, right.

931
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 2: Right, that's correct. And you know they got ninety degree weather,

932
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: no humidity. It's come on. As we used to say,

933
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: Red Charles can grow grass in this.

934
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: Well, you know, they probably could dial it up a

935
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 1: little bit more. But just the nature of the tournament

936
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: has not historically been This is the most challenging tournament

937
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: on the on the PGA Tour. Maybe that's part of

938
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: what kind of holds the Stadium course back from being

939
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: really vicious is just the setup is never going to

940
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: be vicious. The nature of the event is not that.

941
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 2: Maybe the last day, but you know they played the

942
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 2: country club course and the Nicholas Course. You know the

943
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 2: country club course they shoot sixties and it's fifty nine's

944
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 2: and sixties, you know, so that but when they come

945
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 2: to the tournament the stadium course the last day, I

946
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 2: think they'll set it up. I think they'll shoot par

947
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 2: one under. I don't think they'll because there's pressure too, right,

948
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 2: that helps, That helps Furman fast and all that pressure.

949
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 2: That's what you got to have because when they can

950
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 2: hit it far, you know you can't. Length is not

951
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: an issue.

952
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah, it's I mean pressure, pressure

953
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: still still gets to the best of them. That's one

954
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,959
Speaker 1: thing that hasn't hasn't really changed. All right, Well, Tim,

955
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's

956
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: been fun talking to you and hoping to hoping to

957
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: see a firm and fast stadium course at the at

958
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: the tournament this week.

959
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: Garrett. Thanks, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

960
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: All right, let's do some quick takeaways from that conversation

961
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: with Tim Liddy. First of all, it was striking to

962
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: me that he acknowledged that there's not much that pure

963
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 1: design can do to stop tour pros these days. He said, basically,

964
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: you've got to have firm and fast conditions and that's

965
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: pretty much it. And I think that's relatively accurate, especially

966
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: if you want the course to be playable for a golfers. Yes,

967
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 1: you can make the fairways fifteen yards wide and have

968
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: trees and water everywhere, but that's not the kind of

969
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: work that most golf architects want to do. It's not

970
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: the kind of work that most developers want out of

971
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: golf architects. So we're pretty much left with firm and fast,

972
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: and I would add wind if there's wind. That creates

973
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 1: some substantial challenge, but that's not something that you can control.

974
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: So in other words, we've got to roll back the equipment.

975
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: The second thing I'd like to pick out of the

976
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: conversation with Tim is his discussion of Pete Die's approach

977
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: to artificiality. And what I heard Tim saying is that

978
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: he likes and Die liked the juxtaposition between artificial and natural.

979
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 1: For Tim, that's where the art comes from, and that

980
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: is a kind of repudiation of popular thinking right now,

981
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: which is the golf courses should blend into their environments,

982
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: that the hand of man should be invisible. So it

983
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: is interesting to hear Tim position Pete Die as the

984
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: alternative to that approach, and I think he's right about that.

985
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: Pete Die' is shaping doesn't look natural, but it does

986
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: have a relationship with the natural environment in the sense

987
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: that it contrasts with the natural environment, it responds to

988
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 1: the natural environment, and it is interesting to look at

989
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: for that reason. So that's an aspect of Die's courses

990
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: that I think is definitely worth studying. Okay, that's it

991
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: for this episode. Designing Golf is produced by Will Balsam.

992
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: Thank you, Will. If you've been enjoying this podcast, leave

993
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: us a rating and review wherever you might be listening

994
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: to us. I like carrying feedback. I want to learn

995
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: more about what you want to hear out of designing golf,

996
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: and leaving a review would be a good way of

997
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: doing that. All right, thank you for listening, and we'll

998
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 1: be back again soon with another episode.