1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions. I'm Laura and I 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: writer and I'm Steve Drissen. Today we'll tell you about 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: a Michigan murder case with an unusual suspect, a small 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: town police officer named Ray McCann. After Ray helped investigate 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: the disappearance of a little girl, he was wrongfully accused 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: of her murder, cops turned on one of their own 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: in one of the worst cases of tunnel vision we've seen. 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: In pursuit of their only suspect, police turn Ray's whole 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: life into an interrogation room. 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: One of the things we've tried to do this season 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 2: is to show that you don't need a full confession 12 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: in order to bring charges against somebody. A false admission 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: that implicates you in the crime, or a false statement 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: of fact, a lie in this case could bring the 15 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 2: weight of the system down against an innocent person. And 16 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: all of that stems from what happens in the interrogation room. 17 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: Police have so much power over what you say in 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: the interrogation room and the way in which what you 19 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: say can be used against you in court. It's that 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: power and the misuse of that power that's what Ray 21 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: McCann's case. 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: Is all about We've seen tunnel vision in other cases, 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 2: but I've never seen tunnel vision that was this extreme, 24 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: this longstanding, and that included coercion both in and outside 25 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: of the interrogation room. 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: You have the police officers lying, right. The police officers 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: don't get charged. It's Ray who gets charged. I mean, 28 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: this is asymmetric warfare. 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: Right, And it becomes even more asymmetrical when they charge 30 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: him with perjury. Ray mccannn a reserve police officer who 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: all he wanted to do was assist police. All he 32 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: wanted to do was to be a police officer. They 33 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: ran him over like a truck. 34 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: Today's story starts in Constantine, Michigan, a small town of 35 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: two thousand people in the southern corner of the state. 36 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: Constantine is an old fashioned dairy farming community, the kind 37 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: of place that looks like time stopped a half century ago. 38 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: The town's historic main street is lined with shops that 39 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: have been kept immaculate for decades. Annual events like the 40 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: car show and barbecue cookoff are marked on everyone's calendar. 41 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: But in the autumn of two thousand and seven, this 42 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 1: Michigan town was hit by a crime that no one 43 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: could have expected. It was November eighth, four forty five, 44 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: in the afternoon, only an hour before sunset. Eleven year 45 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: old Jody Perrick left her friend's house on her bike 46 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: and headed for dinner at home a half mile away. 47 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: But when Joe he didn't arrive on time, her mom 48 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: called the police, and words spread fast. As the sun 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 1: went down and temperatures plummeted too, it seemed like the 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: whole town was out searching for Jody. Joining the search 51 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: was Ray McCann, a forty year old family man born 52 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: and raised in Constantine. Ray was a reserve police officer 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: who hoped one day to join the Michigan State Police. 54 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: He wasn't a full fledged cop, but he was allowed 55 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: to carry a badge and do basic police work like 56 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: making traffic stops and searching for missing people. In this 57 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: particular missing person case, Ray's son was good friends with Jody, 58 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: so Ray didn't have to be asked twice to help 59 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: look for her. Along with many of his neighbors, Ray 60 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: threw on a coat and went out to look for Jody. 61 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: He searched high and low at the baseball field, at 62 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: the Dollar General, even at a local riverside walking trail 63 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: called the tumble Dam Path. Others searched elsewhere, but no 64 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: luck for anyone, no Jody. Around ten thirty at night, 65 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: Ray met up with Jody's mom to talk about where 66 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: they should look next. That's when Ray McCann asked if 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: anyone had searched the cemetery. No one had, so Jody's 68 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: mom headed that way, followed by Ray in another car. 69 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: The cemetery is where they found Jody. She'd been sexually 70 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: assaulted and strangled to death. Her bike was lying next 71 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: to her on the ground. Jody's mom bent down tried 72 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: to embrace her daughter's body, but Ray knew this was 73 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: a crime scene that shouldn't be disturbed. He gently guided 74 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: her away from Jody's body and sat her down in 75 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: her car. The police arrived quickly at the scene, but 76 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: as they hunted for leeds, they locked almost immediately onto 77 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: Ray McCann as a suspect because Ray had been the 78 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: person who suggested searching the cemetery. Based on that coincidence, 79 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: police questioned Ray that night. He adamantly denied involvement in 80 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: this horrible crime. Somehow, though reserve off Sir Ray McCann 81 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: became the sole suspect, the only person police focused on 82 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: for the next five years. 83 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: When someone discovers a body, they're going to be a 84 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: person of interest in a police investigation because of their 85 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: proximity to the crime. It's a basis for wanting to 86 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: question somebody about what they were doing on the evening 87 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: in question. But they focused on him as the sole 88 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: and exclusive suspect, and they did so because they grew desperate. 89 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: This is a crime that is absolutely devastating to this community, 90 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: and police did everything in their power to close that 91 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: vice on Ray. 92 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: Now, it's not like there was any evidence against Ray. 93 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: Police compared Ray's DNA to the DNA left on Jody's body, 94 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: but it didn't match. No physical evidence implicated him, and 95 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: no eyewitnesses had identified him. But as Jody's murders sat 96 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: unsolved for years, pressure escalated on the authorities to come 97 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: up with a culprit. After a new police chief was 98 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: elected in twenty ten, new investigators were assigned to the case, 99 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: and they immediately doubled down on prime suspect Ray McCann. 100 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: Over the next few years, police interrogated Ray more than 101 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 1: twenty times. Again and again, police asked him to describe 102 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: what he did on the night of Jody's disappearance, where 103 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: he searched, who he talked to. During these interrogations, police 104 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: gradually but relentlessly upped the ante. The evidence against you 105 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: was insurmountable. 106 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 3: They told him, we know scientifically that you touched her body. 107 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: Oh God, no, I did not, and your people whatever, 108 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,239 Speaker 2: you can think that out of thinking that it's. 109 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: Proven now, that was a lie. But these kinds of 110 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: lies can be extremely coercive, even on a cop, even 111 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: on someone like Ray McCann. 112 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: You guys can do all you're talking and talking to 113 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: talk and talking, but you know what, I did my 114 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 3: job that night. 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 4: I wish I knew what half dor because then I 116 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 4: guess we wouldn't be having this conversation. 117 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: The way they questioned Ray was for one purpose, and 118 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: one purpose only, to get him to give them information 119 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: that they could use to charge him with this prayer. 120 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: And Ray called them out about that. 121 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: Too, over and over again. 122 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 4: I don't know what you're trying to do. Give me, 123 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 4: Confessa something I didn't they have no power of, and now. 124 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: You guys are doing in the air. 125 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,559 Speaker 1: That's the thing. He knew exactly what they were doing. 126 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:35,559 Speaker 1: He's a cop. 127 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: You want me to admit to something I didn't do, 128 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna do it. 129 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 4: You want a confession that I can't give you. I 130 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: didn't find or I didn't put it there, didn't kill her. 131 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: I did. 132 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: But the more Ray insisted on his innocence, the more 133 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: police became obsessed with proving him guilty. Here's the really 134 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: twisted thing. Their obsession began to spread beyond the interrogation room. 135 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: They blamed Ray for Jody's death in the local media, 136 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: ruined his reputation, and they viciously attacked his personal life. 137 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: Police tracked down Ray's friends and relatives and worked to 138 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: turn them against him. Police told Ray's family that physical 139 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: evidence DNA proved he had killed Jody, even though that 140 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,559 Speaker 1: wasn't true, and they went even further for no clear reason. 141 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: They told Ray's wife that he'd been unfaithful. They falsely 142 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: told Ray's teenage son, the one who'd been friends with 143 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: Jody when he was younger, that his dad was a 144 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: drug addict. They also told the boy that his dad 145 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: was visiting online chat rooms the worst kind I guess 146 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: that these cops could imagine. Just listen to this. 147 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 3: The computer shows activity in a chat room regularly of 148 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 3: gay nature, homosexual behavior, talking about how this man on 149 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: man sexual encounter is going to go, and then how 150 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 3: it did go. 151 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: There's been no signs of any of that personally from that, 152 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: I haven't seen anything like that. 153 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 3: Okay, is there any part of you at all that 154 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: questions your dad's sexuality. 155 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: Or what you're saying is absolutely honest to God? 156 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 5: True? 157 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 3: I can tell you that it is your computer. I 158 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: took it off there. 159 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, then yeah, of course it's going to make me 160 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: question it. None of this was honest to God true. 161 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: The cops were lying again, and that's bad enough, But 162 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: the fact that they equated visiting gay chat rooms with 163 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: raping and killing an eleven year old girl, I'm sorry, 164 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: but that's beyond offensive in any event. Until Ray confessed, 165 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: police were hell bent on taking his life apart peace 166 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: by piece, and I guess this cop thought that telling 167 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: Ray's teenage son that his dad was gay would be 168 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: a good way to accomplish that. 169 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 2: Their purpose was to make life for Ray McCann in Constantine, Michigan, unendurable, 170 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: to make his life so miserable and so painful that 171 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: they could bring him to a place where he could 172 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: confess to killing Jody Parrick. 173 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: Despite all this, years go by and Ray doesn't confess. Finally, 174 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: the cops had to plan. They'll file charges against Ray 175 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: and see if that gets him to admit guilt. An 176 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: officer is caught saying as much during a taped interview 177 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: with Ray's wife. He's going to have to be charged. 178 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: The officer says, he'll get so scared he'll talk. It 179 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 1: may just come to that. 180 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: At a certain point in time, they should have realized 181 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 2: that Ray had nothing to do with this, and there 182 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: were all kinds of reasons for them to believe that, 183 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: beginning with the DNA evidence, But they didn't care one 184 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: bit about Ray. This was the first time that I 185 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 2: had seen tunnel vision so take over law enforcement officers 186 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: that they were willing to sacrifice the life of another 187 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: officer to close a case. 188 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: Now, the police didn't have any evidence against Ray would 189 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: allow them to charge him with murder, so they came 190 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: up with a different plan and different charges. In twenty twelve, 191 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: police served Ray mccannn with an investigative subpoena requiring him 192 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: to answer questions yet again about the night Jody disappeared. 193 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: Five years earlier because of the subpoena, though this time 194 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: Ray had to give answers under oath. 195 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: Ray did bring a lawyer with him. By this point 196 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 2: in time, Gray's reputation in the community was so damaged, 197 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: so tarnished. He couldn't go anywhere without people looking at 198 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: him as if he had killed Jody Parrick. So the 199 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: lawyer advised him to go in and talk to the 200 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: authorities as a way to maybe put an end to this. 201 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: The police's subpoena strategy worked. It did put an end 202 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: to the harassment, but not the end Ray had hoped for. 203 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: After the interview, on July seventeenth, twenty fourteen, prosecutors accused 204 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: Ray McCann of lying under oath and charged him with 205 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: five counts of perjury. He was arrested and thrown into 206 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: the local jail. So did Ray McCann lie under oath. 207 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: Four of the five perjury charges were based on incredibly 208 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: minor inconsistencies between the details Ray remembered about the knight 209 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: Jodi died five years earlier, and the details that other 210 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: people remembered. 211 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 5: You know, what stands out to me in this story 212 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 5: is how a completely innocent man who is just out 213 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 5: trying to help got caught up in this web of 214 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 5: lies that was spun by the detectives. It's unbelievable that 215 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 5: that could have happened and frightening. 216 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: That's Ken Colker, a journalist based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. 217 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: He's been covering Ray McCann's case for years. 218 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 5: I'm an investigative reporter, so my job is to just 219 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 5: sniff around and look for things that seem wrong. You know, 220 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 5: the perjury charges seemed totally unfounded. I mean, if somebody 221 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 5: asked me what I had for lunch, I might say 222 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 5: taco bell, but maybe it wasn't and is that really 223 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 5: a lie. 224 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: Here's one example of what Ray was charged with under oath. 225 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: Ray McCann said that at one point while he was searching, 226 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: he saw Jody's mom with a blonde haired kid, and 227 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: he thought Jody had been found. He testified that he 228 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: said to Jody's mom, oh good, you found her. 229 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 2: Now. 230 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: Everyone agreed that a local seventh grader with blonde hair 231 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: named Katie was with Jody's mom during the search, but 232 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: Jody's mom couldn't remember whether five years earlier Ray had said, 233 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: oh good, you found her. One of these perjury charges 234 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: was based on this so called discrepancy. Here's another example. 235 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: Police told Ray they found his DNA on Jody's body, 236 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: even though that was a lie. In a desperate attempt 237 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: to provide some explanation, Ray made a guest. Yes, he 238 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: thought back to the moment he and Jody's mom discovered 239 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: her little girl's body. He remembered guiding Jody's mom away 240 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: and helping her sit down in her car. Maybe sometime 241 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: later the mother had been grieving over her daughter's body. 242 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: He said, maybe his DNA had been transferred from Jody's 243 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: mom to the little girl. But five years after the fact, 244 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: Jody's mom didn't remember Ray pulling her away, or taking 245 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: her to the car, or much of anything else from 246 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: that terrible moment. So the cops charged Ray with another 247 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: count of perjury. 248 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 5: What's interesting is that Ray McCann was a reserved police 249 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 5: officer and for some reason they turned on him. That's 250 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 5: the suspect they're focused on. So they're just hammering and 251 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 5: hammering and telling him far more lies than they claim 252 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 5: he told them. 253 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: Ray's history as a police officer may have offered him 254 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: some protection against a false confession, but it couldn't protect 255 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 2: him against another weapon in the police officers arsenal, the 256 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: weapon of perjury. In Ray's case, they turned a series 257 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: of inconsistencies in his statements over a five year period 258 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 2: into perjurious lies. The penalties for perjury in Michigan are extreme, 259 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: and they charged him with five counts of perjury. 260 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 5: So under investigative subpoena, especially in a murder case, telling 261 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 5: a lie of police is actually punishable by up to 262 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 5: life in prison. The punishment is as bad as if 263 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 5: you committed the crime. 264 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: Four of those five charges were based on ridiculous inconsistencies, 265 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: like the ones we've talked about. The fifth charge, though, 266 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: was different. The fifth charge was based on Ray's sworn 267 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: statement that he'd searched for Jody near that riverside walking trail, 268 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: the tumble Dam path. 269 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 5: They claimed, well, that's a lie, because we've got video 270 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 5: showing that nobody went to the tumble Dam that time 271 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 5: of night. We don't see your car, we don't see 272 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 5: your headlights or whatever. There was a video camera on 273 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 5: this nearby creamery that supposedly was aimed right at the 274 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 5: tumble Dam. And the quote unquote lie that they got 275 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 5: him on was the fact that he said he was 276 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 5: at the tumble Dam, but the surveillance video proved he 277 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 5: wasn't there. 278 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: Police claimed that video proved Ray was lying. In fact, 279 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: an officer even took the stand at Ray's first court 280 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: hearing and swore that this video proved Ray had committed perjury. 281 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: For his part, Ray couldn't figure it out. He knew 282 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: he'd gone to the tumble Dam path that night to 283 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: search for Jody. But his trial approached and five possible 284 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: life sentences loomed, Ray finally broke He didn't confess to 285 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: killing Jody. Instead, on March twentieth, twenty fifteen, he pled 286 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: no contest to that fifth perjury charge. 287 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: A no contest plea is an admission that the state 288 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: has sufficient evidence against you to convict you. As a 289 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 2: matter of law, it's treated within the system just as 290 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: any other guilty plea would be treated. 291 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: For that plea of no contest to perjury, Ray received 292 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: a sentence of twenty months in prison. In exchange, the 293 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: state dropped the other four charges. They hadn't gotten Ray 294 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: for murder, but they'd gotten him for something, and I 295 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: guess that was good enough. Fast forward five months after 296 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: Ray entered his plea to August twenty fifteen, Ray was 297 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: in prison serving his perjury sentence, and every day was horrific. 298 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 5: He was a suspected child rapist and killer, and he 299 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,640 Speaker 5: talked about, you know what other prisoners do to child 300 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 5: rapists and killers. He got dragged off of his bunk 301 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 5: one night, got smashed over the head with what he 302 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 5: thinks was a padlock, and somebody tried to gouge his 303 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 5: eyes out. I mean, that's what happened to the poor 304 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 5: guy in prison. 305 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: While Ray suffered, there was a development. A man named 306 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: Daniel Furlong, who lived one town over from Constantine, lured 307 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: a ten year old girl into his garage and attacked her. 308 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: She escaped, thank god, and was able to lead police 309 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: to Furlong's door. They arrested him and took his DNA 310 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: and what did it match? The DNA left eight years 311 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: earlier on Jody Perick's body. Police questioned Daniel Furlong on 312 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: October eighteenth, twenty fifteen, and he admitted that he'd raped 313 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: and killed Jody. Furlong used to live in Constantine, a 314 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: few blocks away from the Parick family. When he saw 315 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: Jody riding by on her bike, he lured her into 316 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: his garage, just like the other girl. That's where he 317 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: assaulted and killed Jody. And he did it all alone. 318 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: Furlong told investigators he didn't know Ray McCann. 319 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 5: We saw the videotape of police interviewing Daniel Furlong, and 320 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 5: they were a lot nicer to him than they were 321 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 5: to Ray McCann. They asked Furlong, so what did you 322 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 5: think when you saw that in a newspaper that they 323 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 5: were focusing on Ray McCann, And he thought, well, I'm 324 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 5: in the clear. 325 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: So, in other words, the fact that the police had 326 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 2: pursued this wrongful prosecution of Ray made Furlong feel enough 327 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 2: comfort to strike again, and that blew me away. 328 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: It was crystal clear Ray McCann was never involved in 329 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: Jody's disappearance. All he did was try to help a 330 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: distraught mom find her missing kid. The police's suspicions about 331 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 1: Ray had been wrong from the start. In November twenty fifteen, 332 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: Daniel Furlong pled guilty to killing Jody Perrick by himself 333 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: and received a sentence of thirty to sixty years, but 334 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: the state wasn't ready to exonerate Ray mc cann. Not yet. 335 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: Ray had been convicted of perjury, and the state insisted 336 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: that even if Ray hadn't committed murder, he had still 337 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: lied under oath. 338 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 5: I started in this case because we were doing stories 339 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 5: about the real killer who confessed and was getting sentenced 340 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 5: to prison, and nobody was talking about what happened to 341 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 5: Ray McCann. It's like, well, what about this guy who 342 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 5: had nothing to do with it. 343 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: In December twenty fifteen, Ray was paroled from a Michigan 344 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: prison after serving his sentence. He was still a convicted felon, 345 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: a perjurer in the eyes of the law. It was 346 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: right around that time that his case came across Steve's desk. 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: Ray had been out of prison for a few months. 348 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: He was having a hard time reintegrating back in the community. 349 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: The police officers were still suggesting to the general public 350 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 2: that he knew things about this crime and he had 351 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: spent twenty months locked up for something he didn't do. 352 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: Thank God for Ken Colker for taking the interest to 353 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: tell this story about Ray, because if it wasn't for him, 354 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: I never would have known about the case. 355 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 5: I had seemed the work done by this Center for 356 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 5: Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern End I just reached out to 357 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 5: Steve and said, here's an interesting case. 358 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: I was so angry at what these law enforcement officers 359 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 2: had done to Ray, and so I called up the 360 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 2: Michigan Innocence Clinic at the University of Michigan Law School, 361 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: and I said, will you work on this case with me. 362 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: The legal team's task was to prove Ray innocence of 363 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: the only perjury charge he'd been convicted of. That was 364 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: the charge where the police had sworn under oath that 365 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: they had a surveillance tape showing the tumble Dam path, 366 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: a video that they said proved Ray had lied about 367 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: going there to search for Jody Well. Ken Kolker got 368 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: a hold of a copy of that videotape. 369 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 5: I remember going down to Ray McCann's home and meeting 370 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 5: Stephen Drisen down there. Yeah, that was like a could 371 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 5: have been a scene in a movie, actually standing around 372 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,959 Speaker 5: this dining room table with my laptop open watching this 373 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 5: video that would eventually lead to Ray mccannn's case being dismissed. 374 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 2: What we saw was that you couldn't see anything from 375 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 2: the camera footage. It was simply too dark to make 376 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: out what kinds of cars were on the street, whether 377 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 2: there were any people on the street. 378 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: You couldn't see the tumble dawn path at all, let 379 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: alone who was walking on it. So the legal team 380 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: actually went to the creamery, the business that had taken 381 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: the surveillance video, and looked at their security camera. The 382 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: creamery owner assured them that the camera hadn't been moved 383 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,719 Speaker 1: since the night of Jody's disappearance. 384 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 5: The video camera wasn't even aimed at the dam The 385 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 5: surveillance camera that they claimed showed he wasn't there was 386 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 5: aimed elsewhere. I wish I'd have been the one that 387 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 5: noticed that. 388 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: Under no circumstances could the creamery camera footage have proven 389 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: that that Ray was not at the tumble damn path. 390 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: The whole damn thing was made up. 391 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 2: It was a lie. The video was essentially worthless as evidence. 392 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: This video certainly didn't prove that Ray McCann had lied 393 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: under oath. Instead, what it proved was that the police 394 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: were the ones who had lied. In order to convict him. 395 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: Ray's wish had come true. He needed to have some 396 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: kind of evidence to demonstrate that he didn't lie at all, 397 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: but that the police officers were lying, and that camera 398 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 2: footage proved it. 399 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: Based on that video. Ray's attorneys filed a motion for relief, 400 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: and on December seventh, twenty seventeen, the court threw out 401 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: Ray's perjury conviction. Ray McCann was innocent of the murder 402 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: and innocent of perjury. He was exonerated. 403 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 5: The prosecutor decided not to fight it and to allow 404 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 5: the judge to dismiss the case. And I just felt 405 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 5: great for Ray. I mean, you can't take away the 406 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 5: twenty months that he's spent in prison, but you know, 407 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 5: at least he was able to clear his name. 408 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: That was the end of Ray McCann's legal ordeal. But 409 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: what happened to the officers who lied to convict him? Okay, Steve, 410 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: So I'm really hoping you're going to tell us that 411 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: after Ray was exonerated, these cops were tried for perjury. 412 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: I wish I could tell you that, But nothing has 413 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 2: happened to these police officers. The prosecutor eventually ended up 414 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 2: losing in his next election, but these police officers have 415 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: never faced any consequences. 416 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: They were the ones who lied, not Ray. They were 417 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: the ones who should have gone down for perjury. 418 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: That's the ultimate irony here. 419 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: And what about Ray McCann. What's life like for him? 420 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: Now? 421 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 1: In many ways, it's still really hard. 422 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 5: I mean, they took a lot away from this guy. 423 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 5: He barely talks to one of his sons, this wife 424 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 5: divorced him, he missed the birth of a grandchild. I'm 425 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 5: sure there are people in that town who still think 426 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 5: Ray McCann had something to do with it. And so, 427 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 5: you know, his name is, in some people's eyes, is 428 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 5: still mud and constantine. 429 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: The only thing Ray McCann ever wanted was to find 430 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: the killer of Jody Perick, and that's been accomplished. Now 431 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: raise free to put his life back together as best 432 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: he can. 433 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 4: Ray. 434 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh hey, Ray, it's Laura. 435 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 2: How are you doing pretty good? 436 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: So you're living up north in Michigan. Have you got 437 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: snow on the ground yet? 438 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 4: Yeah? Actually just got some yesterday. I want to go 439 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 4: get some wood and stuff, and all of a sudden 440 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 4: it start coming back. 441 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,479 Speaker 1: Tell me about your wife, Ray, I'm delighted to hear 442 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: that you're married. 443 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, we got married in April twelfth. I actually on 444 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: my dad's birthday in twenty eighteen. 445 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 1: Well that's a beautiful way to honor your dad. How 446 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: did you meet your wife. 447 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 4: We work together. If she caught my eye right. 448 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: Away, you must have caught her eye too. 449 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I must have done something right. We were actually 450 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 4: in southwest Michigan there for a while, and we made 451 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 4: a decision to start a new life somewhere else because 452 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 4: it just, you know, it was hard for me. It's 453 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 4: been going a lot better since we made the move 454 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 4: up here. It really has I struggle at times, you know, 455 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 4: I met that I go through a lot of depression. 456 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 4: My wife knows I go through that, and she's there 457 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 4: for me. I am so thankful to my daughter Ashley. 458 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 4: She wasn't with me the whole time this was going 459 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 4: on and still is with me. And I just love 460 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 4: you know, the grandkids. They keep it busy, that's for sure. 461 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: You're a good man, Ray, and a survivor. Steve and 462 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: I are with you all the way. 463 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: One of the jobs that we as innocence lawyers have 464 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: is to try to tell the story of our clients 465 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: in a way that can bring them back some measure 466 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: of their reputation. To tell the story in a way 467 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 2: that makes it abundantly clear that Ray McCann is innocent. 468 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: We can't undo the trauma that Ray experienced, but at 469 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: least we can establish that he never committed the crime 470 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,440 Speaker 1: he was accused of. In fact, a crime was committed 471 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: against him. 472 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 2: One of the arguments against allowing police officers to lie 473 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: during interrogations is that it creates a culture in which 474 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: lying is acceptable not only during interrogations, but when police 475 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: officers come into court and testify about cases, and that 476 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 2: may very well have been what happened here. 477 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: You're allowed to lie to get a confession, why not 478 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: lie to get a conviction. 479 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: It's one of the strongest arguments for banning deception during 480 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: police interrogations. 481 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: When you allow police to lie, that sends a message 482 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: that truthfulness is not essential to the task of enforcing 483 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: the law, and of course it is. It's vital. And 484 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: that's the story of Ray McCann. Join us next week 485 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: when we take you to Ada, Oklahoma to tell you 486 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: about Tommy Ward. After detectives learned about a strange dream 487 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: he had, Tommy was accused of a local woman's murder 488 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: and found himself on death row. Tommy remains behind bars 489 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: to this day, but a team of lawyers, including our 490 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: Center on Wrongful Convictions, is fighting to end Tommy's Nightmare. 491 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, False Confessions is a production of Lava for 492 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one Special 493 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: thanks to our executive producers Jason Flamm and Kevin Wardis. 494 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: Our production team is headed by senior producer Ann Pope 495 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: along with producers Joshi Hammer and Jess Shane. Our show 496 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: is mixed by Genie Montalvo. John Colbert is our intrepid intern. 497 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: Our music was composed by Jay Ralph. You can follow 498 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: me on Instagram or Twitter at Laura and iRider, and you. 499 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 2: Can follow me on twist s Drizzen. 500 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: For more information on the show, visit wrongfulconvictionpodcast dot com. 501 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow the show on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 502 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 503 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction