1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: JJ Valo and Tyley Ryan are dead. We may have 2 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: thought so all along, but now we know. We know 3 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: that their remains were destroyed and buried in the backyard 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: of COULTMM Laurie Valo's new husband's home. What now Crime 5 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace Me now a very special guest, 6 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, so called death investigator, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville 7 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: State University, and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. 8 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: Jo Scott, thank you for being with us. We need 9 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: and expert regarding the discovery of the bodies of seven 10 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: year old JJ and teen girl Tylely. Let's just start 11 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: at the beginning. We know that the bodies of these 12 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: two children have been buried for some time. Tyle's body 13 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: has been dismembered and burned. Tell me what you believe 14 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: the condition of the bodies are right now. Tyley's body specifically, 15 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: would be in a condition of at least moderate to 16 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: advanced stage stages of decomposition. I'd have to probably lean 17 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: more to an advanced stage. That means you've already got 18 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: things like skeletonization going on. If her body was burned, 19 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: would't we would be beyond skeletonization. Remember, one of the 20 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: things that's contained in this document that was put forward 21 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: is the fact that they did, in fact fine tissue. 22 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: They allude to tissue in there. As a matter of fact, 23 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: some of that tissue itself is charred along with the bond. 24 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: So you're kind of in this odd position at this 25 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: point in time, this many months downrange we're talking about 26 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: back in September, where we have still some soft tissue 27 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: and this happens regularly, and we have skeletonized remains. So 28 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: it's this odd combination and what is really key here 29 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: and we have to understand patience is important here because 30 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: it's going to take time to determine Tyley's cause of debt. 31 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: How hard is it to burn a human body? It's 32 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: markedly difficult, Nancy, And let me explain to you why. 33 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: Let's just think just for a second about you know, 34 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: we have crematories all across America. What do they require. Well, 35 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: you have to place a body into this enclosed area 36 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: and it has a constant fuel source. Mostly things are 37 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: fueled by natural gas. If you're talking about burning a 38 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: body in a fire pit or a fire ring, you 39 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: have to provide a constant source of fuel. And what's 40 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: the most obvious thing. Well, most people think gas. It's 41 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: not gas. Gas is an accelerant, so it kind of 42 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: blazes up, which we see many times. You know, people 43 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: will throw gas or lighter fluid on something, you know, 44 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: kind of you know, kind of explode for a moment 45 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: and then it burns off. That's an initient for fire. 46 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,839 Speaker 1: What you need is sustainable fuel. So we're talking about 47 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: applying wood in this case to a fire pit where 48 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: you can keep that heat up. The difference is is 49 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: that when you have an open fire pit, the heat itself, 50 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: it kind of disperses into the air, okay, and a 51 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: crematory it doesn't. It stays contained in that location and 52 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: literally the body renders down. My suspicion is is that 53 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: they got about halfway down the road in trying to 54 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: dispose of her body and they couldn't make it the 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: rest of the way. It requires a tremendous amount of 56 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: fuel over a protracted period of time, and the heat 57 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: has to be tremendous, you know, in crematories we're talking 58 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: about sometimes up to a thousand, maybe even above a 59 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: thousand degrees in order to sustain this. And this is 60 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: hours and hours. Can you imagine out in a pit 61 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: and it's exposed to everything. You know, you can actually 62 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: see this fire pit from the road, Nancy, it's within 63 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: it's a viewable distance, a line of sight distance. And 64 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: this is problematic for the perpetrators because they have to 65 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: have constant sources of fuel would to apply to the body. 66 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: And then you're standing over the body. Let's not forget 67 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: of somebody that you knew, this precious little child, and 68 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: you're having to literally render them down with fire. You know, 69 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: a half too, as you say, render them down with fire, 70 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, half to do anything. When I believe Alex 71 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: Cox showed up with dead bodies, right then Chad day 72 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: Belle had the opportunity to say no. And where was 73 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: the mother Cultmu Laurie Valo during all of this. But 74 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: that's for a jury to design. I want to talk 75 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: about the bodies and what clues, what evidence, if anything, 76 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: can be gain from them to dismember a body. You 77 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: know a lot of people think about shows like programs 78 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: like um what was his name? I loved him so much? 79 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: Crime scene analyst that goes on any search dexter of course, 80 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: and that's one of the only things that got me 81 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: through my pregnancy is binging on dexter. But it's not 82 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: like that. It's not an easily contained and cleanable scene. 83 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm finish in an hour, in a sixty 84 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: minute program, I can tell you that much. How difficult 85 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 1: is it to dismember a human body? Well, it's very difficult, Nancy, 86 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: And let me explain to you why. First off, you 87 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: have to have a private area, a sequestered area, if 88 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: you will, in order to accomplish this task. You know, 89 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: you have to go somewhere where you have privacy. And 90 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: then when you get there, you got to show up 91 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: with the right tools. You know, you and I have 92 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: covered a lot of cases over the years, and we've 93 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: covered some dismemberment cases. You know, we talk about bodies 94 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: that have been dis ubered in bathtubs, out in sheds 95 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing. Well, in order to accomplish that, 96 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: you can't be disturbed while you're doing this, and then 97 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: you put in the human factor to this that you know, 98 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about the psychology behind a lot 99 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: of these murders that go on. How difficult is it 100 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: to stand over the remains of this precious little girl 101 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: that you have known, at least peripherally, and you begin 102 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: to take her body apart with some type of sharp instrument. 103 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: And most of the time when I talk about sharp instruments, 104 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm talking about first off, you just don't take a 105 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: saw and apply it to skin and muscle. You have 106 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: to cut through that with an edged weapon like a 107 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: butcher knife or a filet knife and that sort of thing, 108 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,559 Speaker 1: just to get down to the bone. Once you've made 109 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: it to that location, then you have to saw. Now 110 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people use various methodologies. I've work cases 111 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: involving chainsaws, band saws, circular saws, and even old fashioned 112 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: carpentry saws. But the reality is you have to get 113 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: to that point. You have to know what you're gonna do. 114 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: This isn't like going I hate to say this, but 115 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: it's not like going to a butcher shop. You know, 116 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: a butcher actually has a method to their madness. They 117 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: they're highly trained and skilled people like this that have 118 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: potentially never done this on a regular basis. We can 119 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: only hope and certainly involving another fellow human being, they're 120 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: going to give this a lot of pause and they're 121 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: going to try to have to figure this out. You 122 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: got a lot of blood, you got a lot of tissue, 123 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: and it's it's actually getting onto you. If the perpetrator 124 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: from an evidentially standpoint, that's very significant. If we can 125 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: get those clothes that the individual had on. Also, this 126 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: is key, Nancy, whatever kind of instrument that was used. 127 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: And let's kind of go down this path just for 128 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: a second. If we talk about like an edged weapon, okay, 129 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: or an edged device like a knife, every time that 130 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: knife makes contact with the surface, it's going to leave 131 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: behind a specific signature that only correlates to that blade. Now, 132 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: if we can get that knife, that's going to be key, 133 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: because once you get through the soft tissue with a knife, 134 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: you might strike the bone. That's going to leave an impression. Now, 135 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: once you use the saw to literally dismember the body, 136 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,119 Speaker 1: at that point in time where you're cutting across bone, 137 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: shafts and this sort of thing, the saw marks itself. 138 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: Like the teeth on the saw, they leave their own 139 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: unique identifying print as that saw goes across that bone. 140 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: So these teeth literally lead behind almost an impression in 141 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: the bone. The key here for the investigators is to 142 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: get their hands on those instruments married up to the 143 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: marks on the bone. And I can tell you right 144 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: now in Idaho and at the FBI Crime Lab, what 145 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: they're doing is that they are analyzing this bone very 146 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: very carefully. You're going to have what referred to as 147 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: tool mark experts that deal in this sort of thing 148 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: all the time. They will take these and do both 149 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: gross examinations with which is where they're looking at it 150 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: with the unaided eye. They're taking photographs of it, all 151 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and then they're going to look 152 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: at it microscopically. And when you get down microscopically on 153 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: the surface of one of these bones, it opens up 154 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: an entirely different world because most people look at a 155 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: mark on a piece of wood or a bone, or 156 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: you know, a piece of furniture, and they'll say, well, 157 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: it's just a mark. No, when you get down to 158 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: it microscopically, that is a unique identifier that is unique 159 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: to a particular tool. The key is can they get 160 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: that tool, can they put it in the perpetrator's hand, 161 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: and can they make it match up with the marks 162 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: that they have on that bone. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, 163 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: I want to start with you as a death investigator, 164 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 1: forensics expert, we know that the location was triangulated or 165 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: identified by cell phone, if not triangulated by the brother 166 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: occult mon Laurie Valo Alex Cox visiting husband number five, 167 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: Chad Dave Bell's home. Cops, then go out there. I 168 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: want you, Joseph Scott Morgan, to put yourself in their shoes. 169 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: You know, general area. You walk into Chad day Bell's backyard. 170 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: What do you see? What do you do? Start? Just imagine, 171 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: if you will, you are the investigator that has showed 172 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: up at the scene, and you've got this peing that 173 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: you mentioned, and this is key that is that it 174 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: puts that cell phone at that location. So you have 175 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: to ask yourself the question, if you're an investigator, why 176 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: are you there? Is his phone there? You know, obviously 177 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: we can't say that an individual specifically there, but we 178 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: can say that phone is there, and that's going to 179 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: be key to this. Can they put that hand that 180 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: hold on? Can they put on? Yeah, je Scott. We 181 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: also know that the brother, who had only visited Chad 182 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: day Belle's place four times in his life that we 183 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: know of, he also stopped after going there that day, 184 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: ostensibly dropping off the dead bodies, and had a meal 185 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: at Del Taco. So you know, we can place in 186 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 1: there in a number of ways through GPS tracking, through 187 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: possibly any tracking in his navigational guide or tool in 188 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: his vehicle is Del Taco receipt, I mean, a lot 189 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: of ways other than his cell phone. But when you 190 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: look out at this acre, would you consider, of course 191 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: looking with the naked eye for disturbed ground, or you 192 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: could use ground disturbing radar that's pretty easy. Or even 193 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: a dog can hit on disturbed ground, you know, so 194 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: you can once you're at the scene. There are a 195 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: lot of techniques you can use to find exactly where 196 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: the graves are. Yeah, there are. And you know, the 197 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: first thing that came to mind where the cadaver dogs. 198 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: They work on a spectrum that we can't even fathom 199 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: as human beings. That is that they are uniquely trained 200 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: to clue in on decomposing human remains. This is completely 201 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: different than drug dogs or you know, dogs that are 202 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: used to look for exotic animals, you know, through the 203 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: customs departments, all that sort of thing. We're talking about 204 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: cadaver dogs. These dogs are specifically trained for this purpose 205 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we have them and they have 206 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: this spectrum, you know, like we have a spectrum of vision, 207 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: they have a spectrum of smell and all factory sense 208 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: that leads them. They can literally narrow this down to 209 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: a particular area. And of course, in this case, if 210 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: we're talking about that, dogs were used just to get 211 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: an idea where they are. Can you imagine where these 212 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: dogs they're going nuts. They've got two separate locations. Remember 213 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: these bodies are found in two separate locations. But the 214 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: dogs are not the ones that are going to excavate this. 215 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: They simply are there in order to kind of narrow 216 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: the spectrum down, narrow the possibilities down. It's at that 217 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,719 Speaker 1: point that you have to survey the surface of the 218 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: ground before you as an investigator. They've got a forensic 219 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: anthropologist out there that is good at reading what's referred 220 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: to as the topography of the ground. You know how 221 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: it's kind of shape because for you and I, you know, 222 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: when I go out in my backyard, I don't I 223 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: don't look at the ground, say like a geologist or 224 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: forensic anthropologist would I just look at it. I see 225 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: upturned dirt maybe where I worked in a flower bed 226 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: many many months ago. It's not like that for them. 227 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 1: They can recognize just by sight where soil has been disturbed. 228 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: They can look at vegetation that say, it's not equal 229 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: in height to everything else. That means that it's new 230 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: growth as opposed to everything else. You know, it looks 231 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: like it's been there for a while. So there are 232 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: the certain little clues that they kind of go on. Now, 233 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: once they get there, they'll bring out you'd mentioned ground 234 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,239 Speaker 1: penny in a minute. You're making it sound very technical, 235 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: But when you go out there, just as any untrained 236 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: person can, you can go out and see where there's 237 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: disturbed ground or where there's been digging unless somebody concealed 238 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: it very well. So what's the next thing you do. 239 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: Whether you use ground disturbing radar, which will tell you 240 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: whether ground has been disturbed even you know, many feet 241 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: below the surface, cadaver dog, or just a visual examination 242 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: with your naked eye, you can see her somebody's dug 243 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: up dirt. Yeah, you can also see the others of 244 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: the fire pit and look through that, right you can. 245 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: And you can also use say metal metal probes to 246 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: literally go into a suspected area. And as you place 247 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: these metal probes into the ground, the sense of actually 248 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: placing the rod into the ground and what's what it's 249 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: touching beneath. You can see if there's resistance or non resistance. 250 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: Remember what soil that's undisturbed, it's very tightly packed. Everybody 251 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: can identify with this. If you've ever had a shovel 252 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: in your hand and you try to dig up dirt 253 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: that's been there for years and years and years, very difficult. However, 254 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: if you got into an area that has been turned recently, 255 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: you can take one of these metal sticks and slowly 256 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: pass it in through the ground the subsurface of the ground, 257 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: and it's very loose. It's easy to kind of understand 258 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: there's something below there. If you can verify it with 259 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: ground penetrating radar, it'll literally give you a photo of 260 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: what's beneath the ground. And in many of these instances 261 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: you can actually pick up on things like human bodies. 262 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: You can make out a shape of the body beneath 263 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: the ground. You can see skeletal remains, this sort of thing. 264 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: And so this is very important and you have to 265 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: specifically mark this area, Nancy, because once you set, once 266 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: you set the parameters for this thing, you don't want 267 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: to go too far filled with it. You want to 268 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: zero in on this location and then very very and 269 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: I mean very carefully begin to take those layers of 270 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: soil off of the top of the ground so that 271 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: you can get to what lies beneath. Let me ask 272 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: you this, in the very careful dig process, what is 273 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: your understanding of how the children were found the condition 274 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: of their remains? Well? With Tyley, you know, the interesting 275 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: thing is that they're talking about that her body had 276 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: been dismembered in some manner. I'm not really sure to 277 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: what extent at this point, but I do know that 278 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: if they're talking about dismembering, then that means that her 279 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: body was essentially in multiple pieces, all right, possibly, And 280 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: so you're going to have to be very careful in 281 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: moving the soil away from this area because you know, 282 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier you talked about the burning. Well, when 283 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: you get down below this kind of substrata that's right there, 284 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: the lower levels, you know, when you're getting down to 285 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: where the body is actually kind of nested down in there, 286 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: you're going to have to look for things like high 287 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: deposits of carbon, which is, you know, like burned wood. 288 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: You know, these areas and you get a sense of 289 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: when the soil was kind of turned over onto the 290 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: body once they dug it out. Now they might be 291 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: scrapping out the fire pit to put everything in there. 292 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: You have to look for bits of evidence and collect 293 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 1: everything that's around there. And most of the time when 294 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: they do this on a kind of a microscale, they'll 295 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: grid off the area. You know, if people will just 296 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: keep in mind this idea of like a multipoint grid 297 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: and they will assign numbers to this, and they'll say, well, 298 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: I found a button in grid one, a kind of 299 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: like playing battleship. I found a zipper in you know, 300 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: three c or I found two so human tooth in 301 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: this particular location, or charter remains here. And in that 302 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: sense you get an idea of how the body was distributed, 303 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: and then what was placed on top of the body, 304 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: where there's stones on top of the body, for instance, 305 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: And we're kind of getting reports that there may have 306 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: been actually multiple layers of things to conceal the bodies 307 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: that lie underneath, almost like somebody took a lot of 308 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: time with them. We talk about JJ, who you know, 309 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: JJ was not found in the same location as Tilly, 310 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: and one of the things that struck me Nancy. When 311 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: I took a look at these aerial photographs, it really 312 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: and I urge everyone to go back and take a look. 313 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: It's really striking. In those early iterations of these photos, 314 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: you could see this gigantic pit. And I'm not talking 315 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: about the fire pit. I'm talking about what looks like 316 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: a really large circular pit that turns out to be 317 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: a dry pond that had been drained some time ago. 318 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: Apparently JJ's body was found immediately adjacent to that. But 319 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: what makes his so different, and what makes the discovery 320 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: of his remains so unique, is that whoever did this 321 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: with him took a lot of time and a lot 322 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: of care with him. We understand that the body was 323 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: a sin wrapped in black plastic. It was secured with 324 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: duct tape, but even within that, his head was wrapped 325 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: in a separate back, so that gives us some indications 326 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: about how the body was treated. After the body was cocooned, 327 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: and I refer to this as cocooning. The body was 328 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: laid in the ground and then multiple layers of dirt 329 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 1: brick stone were placed over the top and then sawed. 330 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: So you have these multiple layers that are going on. 331 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: This is not somebody Nancy that went out and kind 332 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: of haphazardly dug a hole, placed this child in the 333 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: hole or the child's remains. This actually gives you an 334 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: idea that this had planning involved. They showed up with 335 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: the tools, they showed up with what they needed to 336 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 1: accomplish it, all the supplies. And that goes deeper here 337 00:19:51,480 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: as far as motive motive in this case, Time Stories 338 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace with me now a very special guest, 339 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, so called Death Investigated, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville 340 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. 341 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: J Scott describe when you say the burial spots were 342 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: in two different two different locations on the same property. 343 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: Describe what you observe from the aerial view. You know, 344 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: when I first saw the saw the images, I didn't 345 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: think too much of the fire pit. But then I 346 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: started to kind of put two and two together. They 347 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: were the authorities at the time were digging almost immediately 348 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: adjacent to the fire pit. I would say it was 349 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: within you know, I was saying earlier, maybe within twenty yards. 350 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to pin myself 351 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: down on that. But it was a very close distance, 352 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: certainly close enough to facilitate burning something and then taking 353 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: it over to a hole that you've dug and placing 354 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: it in there. So you get this relationship between the 355 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: fire pit and the hole. It's like it's something that 356 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: was done hastily. It's something that was not a lot 357 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: of thought went into it, other than we're going to 358 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: try to dismember a body. We did an ineffective job 359 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: at that. We're going to try to burn a body. 360 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: We've done an ineffective job at that. Let's dig a 361 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: hole in place what we have done here in there 362 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: to hide all of the evidence. So when you had 363 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: this drained pond that I talked about earlier, you can 364 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: still see it in the aerial photography. You have the 365 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: fire pit and then at some distance you have this 366 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: drained pond area over there. The area is much more pristine. 367 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: There's no burning that's taken place over there. It's in 368 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: an area that is on the lip or on the 369 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: cusp of this pond. It's not like something was kind 370 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: of cast stuff in there. So this tells us a lot, 371 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: I think as an investigator about the dynamic that was 372 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: going on with these children. Specifically, I think that JJ 373 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: was treated in a manner in which Tyley was not 374 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 1: ty They literally after death Nancy. With Tyley, they literally 375 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: tried to destroy her. The difference in the way that 376 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: children's bodies were treated, to me, is psychologically a very 377 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: important clue, because I believe that Chad day Bell convinced 378 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: Laurie Valoe that her children were dark spirits, that they 379 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: were zombies and they had to be destroyed. And at 380 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: first she identified Tyley as being a quote dark spirit, 381 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: and then only later JJ. So it seems to me 382 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: that they treated Tyley, even after death, much more badly 383 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: than they did JJ. But when you look at it, 384 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Regarding the locations of these 385 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: so called burial sites. I'm just wondering how likely it 386 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: is that they will ever be able to discover a 387 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: cod cause of death. And also, we've talked about Tyley's 388 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: body allegedly dismembered and burned, but JJ was practically hermetically sealed, 389 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: bound in duct tape and bags. What can you tell 390 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: me about the discovery of JJ just seven years old body, 391 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: the body, his body, you know, he had a bag 392 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: over his hid Nancy, And so for me where Tyley, 393 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: her body has been really destroyed essentially. I hate to 394 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: say that, but you know, burned and maybe dismembered and 395 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But with JJ a bag over 396 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: his head, maybe he was suffocated. I don't know. But 397 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: one of the things we're going to be looking for, 398 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: that they are going to be looking for at autopsy 399 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: is certainly the signs that maybe this was some kind 400 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: of esphyxial death. Maybe he had a bag placed over 401 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: his head and he was deprived of oxygen. Maybe they 402 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: drugged him prior to this and then placed the bag 403 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: over his head, And that's going to be key. I 404 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: think about Joe Scott, if they did drug him in 405 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: any way, would that still be in his system now? Yeah, Yeah, 406 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: that's that's going to be difficult. I think that probably 407 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: one of the things they're going to have to do 408 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: is take their time with the tissue that they have. 409 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: The blood itself. People don't realize this, but you know, 410 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: the blood itself gets kind of compromised through through the 411 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: process of decomposition. Sometimes there'll be some urine left and 412 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: maybe vitrious fluid from the eyes. But it's going to 413 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: be very difficult to kind of key in. You know, 414 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: any kind of agent that's applied to a body, any 415 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: kind of chemical drug, that sort of thing, it has 416 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: what's referred to as a lethal level, and the lethal 417 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: level if you're looking for toxicology, it's going to be very, 418 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: very difficult to determine in this case because we're so 419 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: far down range from when he actually died, So that's 420 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 1: going to be key. I think one of the things 421 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: they're going to be very careful about though, is looking 422 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: for physical evidence of trauma. Was it a head strike, 423 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: was that a gunshot wound, Was it a stabbing? And 424 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 1: some of this stuff is going to be difficult to 425 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: discern just simply because of the state of the soft 426 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: tissue of JJ's body, even though he's cocooned. It's going 427 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: to make it much more difficult. The reality is, even 428 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: if we never discover cause of death, the case can 429 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: still go forward. Killers don't get a gold star just 430 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: because they managed to hide the cause of death by 431 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: destroying the body. Of course, we've got a lot better 432 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: chance to determine cod with JJ because his body, we 433 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: think is still intact. Not true for Tyley, who was dismembered, 434 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: and burned based on what we've been told. Now, when 435 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: a body starts decomposing, it it's a lot more difficult 436 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: to determine cause of death. You lose toxicology, maybe you 437 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: lose soft tissue damage such as an asphyxiation, because the 438 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: PARTICULARI in the eye, which rupture typically upon strangulation, smothering, hanging, 439 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: that all goes away, It decomposes to a point you 440 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: don't have it anymore. So if we're trying to look 441 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: for cod On JJ, whose body is kind of still intact, 442 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: you're going to have to be looking for a gunshot wound, 443 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: a mortal blow that crushed his skull, maybe a nick 444 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: from a knife on one of his ribs. If it's 445 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: anything other than that, we may never know cause of death. 446 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: Now we very well may not. However, I have hope 447 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: in this case. And if and this is why, And 448 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: let me just kind of briefly mention this. When the 449 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 1: FBI agent they stayed in the documents that were released, 450 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: when the FBI agent essentially cut open that bag, they said, 451 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: we see a human head with hair, and that gives 452 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: us an indication that maybe maybe the soft tissue to 453 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: a certain degree is still intact. Now, if we're talking 454 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: about things like, yeah, gunshot wounds, that's going to be 455 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: kind of straightforward, and it shouldn't be that compromised knife wounds. Yeah, 456 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: you'd be able to see it. But also when you 457 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: get down into the muscles, save the muscles around the neck, 458 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: even though they're in a stated decomposition, are really keen. 459 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: Forensic pathologists will be able to literally dissect the tissue 460 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: way on the neck and look at the muscles. We 461 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,159 Speaker 1: look at what are called the strap muscles around the 462 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: neck to see if there's stringulation involved. And we've got 463 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: layer upon layer of plastic and listen, we've also got 464 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: duct tape. What this means is that whoever applied these 465 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: bags to JJ's body, there is a high likelihood that 466 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: there will be latent prints on the surface of these bags. Now, 467 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: they will have sweated some, but even internally, you might 468 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: be able to find prints on the inner portion of 469 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: the bag, the outer side of the outside. I don't 470 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: know so much. But when we take a look at 471 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: that duct tape, the cool thing about it, Nancy, is 472 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: that it has an adherent adhesive side, and that leaves 473 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: behind what's referred to as a plastic print. So that 474 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: means that if you touch the surface of that tape, 475 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: if they collect that tape properly, which I'm sure that 476 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: they have, they can actually raise a print from the 477 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: underside of that tape. And it's a marvelous thing. They 478 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: might can do superglue fuming, for instance, where they'll fume 479 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: the entire contents of the bag. I've even been present 480 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: when they superglue bodies. They fume an entire body looking 481 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: for latent princes. Could you explain to everybody what you 482 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: mean by the superglue? Yeah, what will happen with superglue, Nancy, 483 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: Is that superglue just like you see at any hardware 484 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: store that you pick up at any store. It's actually 485 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: placed into a little metal container and it's heated up 486 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: and as a result of the contents or the makeup 487 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: of the superglue itself, it turns into a gaseous state. 488 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: And as it turns into a gaseous state, as it's heated, 489 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: it has to fall right and when it falls, these 490 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: fatty lipid oils. Remember if we touch your face, you 491 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: get kind of oily fingers, and that's sort of thing. 492 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: You have oil on your fingers, when you leave these 493 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: latent or unseen prints behind on a body, as those 494 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: fumes fall, they adhere to those oily surfaces and you 495 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: can actually make out a print. And once it's there 496 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: and it's locked in with the superglobe, it's not going anywhere. 497 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: It'll be there for years and years. So they can 498 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: study this very very carefully. If they can do that, Nancy, 499 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: then there'll be a tie back to the individual that 500 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: may have cocooned the body. One of the things that 501 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: we can think about, if the body is preserved in 502 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: the manner in which I think that it is, we 503 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: might have left behind touch DNA. Now, if this was 504 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 1: in fact Alex that was involved in this, hopefully we 505 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: still have some sample of his left behind, so we 506 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,959 Speaker 1: can go back and compare his DNA versus maybe an 507 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: unknown that's found on the bag. You know, would also 508 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: be interesting, Jo Scott is to look for fingerprints or 509 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: DNA on the duct tape and the plastic bags and 510 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: anything else used in the burials, but then also id 511 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: the bag because as we now know, trash bags can 512 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: be identified by a lot a parcel right down to 513 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: the store where the bags were sold. And what if 514 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: that walmoret Mark or that Lows or home depot, or 515 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: that target has surveillance video of Alex Cox or Chad 516 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: day Belle or even cult mom Laurie Valo buying the 517 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: trash bags. There's so many forensic avenues to travel down 518 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: on this case in identifying all of the evidence, even 519 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: down to the duct tape, because somebody had to buy 520 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: the supplies. And I'm also wondering about the excavation of 521 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: the fire pit itself, what that's going to reveal time 522 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace just got how likely is it 523 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: that we will ever get a cod if you're if 524 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: you're asking me if I'm a betting man, relij I 525 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: think j yeah, I think that we will off JJ. 526 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: I just I just don't know about Tyley Nancy at 527 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: this point, and I'm holding out hope. But the fact 528 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: that she has been down and that her body has 529 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: been manipulated so much in the post mortem state they did, 530 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: they went to such great links to just rip her 531 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: to shreds. I don't know if we're going to have 532 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: as much luck with her as we will with JJ. 533 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: Once you have these bodies, Okay, it is just incumbent 534 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: upon the authorities to search every possible lead that they can. 535 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: They have the opportunity to really explore all of the 536 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: evidence that may be left behind on these bodies. Nancy. 537 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: We're talking about everything from the tool marks that I 538 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier than to possible DNA studies, to microscopic examinations 539 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: of the bones themselves relative to the skulls to see 540 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: if there was any trauma there that was before death. 541 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: And it's essentially that we do everything. I'm thinking right now, 542 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking right now about another person, and that's Tammy Davel. 543 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: You know, we begin to think about what a horrible 544 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: job was done in that case, and they just allowed 545 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: her body to be removed from the scene without ever 546 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: really doing her an effective examination. And that's what's got 547 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: us in this point right now, because this is struggle. 548 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: One thing about Tammy day Bell. At least she wasn't 549 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: cremated like an earlier husband of Laurie Valos, so you know, 550 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: at least we have a body to examine. So my 551 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: question is at this juncture, if we don't have fingerprints, 552 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: which I think we will have fingerprints in some way 553 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: some touch DNA, be it a hair, a piece of fiber, anything, 554 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: off JJ or Tyley's body. We still have the circumstantial 555 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: evidence that it's in day Belle's backyard. He had the 556 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: fire pit going, the neighbors saw it, as you pointed out, 557 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: and then we find Tyley's body on his property burned, 558 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: and I get it will be something in that fire 559 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: pit that relates back to Tiley's body. So that's very 560 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: strong circumstantial evidence. Would you agree or disagree? And what 561 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: other circumstantial evidence do you believe will be found? Hey, listen, yeah, 562 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: I agree completely. It is strong. You know, how do 563 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: you how can you explain it away? It is the 564 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: physical evidence, you know, it is essential to this case 565 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 1: because that puts her remains in that specific location. If 566 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: they attempted to burn her body in that fire pit, 567 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: which I gotta tell you I think that they did, 568 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: what other identifying factors could be there? Well, you can 569 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: find you can find clothing, bits of clothing, button zippers, 570 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 1: all these other things that would be tie backs, labels 571 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: to clothing that wasn't consumed, a tiny bit of bone, 572 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: a tooth, anything can relate back to Tiley. And that 573 00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: shows that the fire, the mode of concealment happened on 574 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: his property and he was standing right there stirring the 575 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: fire pit. Not only that, Jessica Morgan, Oh, we understand 576 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: that while police were executing their search warrant and ultimately 577 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: dug up the two bodies, Davelle was sitting across the 578 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: street watching and as soon as they got to the 579 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: spot and started digging, he took off and they apprehended him. 580 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 1: So he was there watching, if he didn't know what 581 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: was there, why take off? You cannot get past that 582 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: this is his property. You know. These bodies just didn't 583 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: miracle themselves there. They're there purposefully, all right, And that's 584 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: the issue here. How can defense, any defense, explain this away. 585 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: It's going to be very, very difficult to get away 586 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: from this, Nancy. This is the corpus delecti here. This 587 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: is the body, okay, that we're talking about, and we're 588 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,959 Speaker 1: placing it. We're placing both of these bodies there. And specifically, 589 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: the most egregious of this is this idea of her 590 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,239 Speaker 1: body being burned in his fire pit, on his property, 591 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: and any kind of relevant evidence that's there. You mentioned 592 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: the tooth teeth themselves, you know, will far outlast any 593 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: other element of human form by a long shot. Because 594 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: they're so resilient. They're not bone, contrary to what people think, 595 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: they can withstand a tremendous amount of heat. Let's just say, 596 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: for instance, you do find her tooth in there, and 597 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: we know that in life she had beautiful, intact teeth. 598 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,760 Speaker 1: We've even got dental records, perhaps anti boredom prior to death, 599 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: dental records. How do you explain that the tooth of 600 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: a normally healthy child, the seventeen year old girl, was 601 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: actually found in a fire pit. You cannot get past that. 602 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: That is going to be the proverbial elephant in the 603 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: room in that courthouse. I just wish I could be 604 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: a fly on the wall on July twenty second, when 605 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: Laurie Vali cult mom is sitting behind bars and the 606 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: world just keeps spinning and it's not the end of 607 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: the world. Will it ever hit her? She's gonna sit 608 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: there tick tick talk, watching that clock and it is 609 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: not the end of the world. You think he'll ever 610 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: hit her? That all this was just a way to 611 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: have sex with her and get her children out of 612 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: the way. The whole cult thing, the end of the 613 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: world in New Jerusalem was all b s. I got 614 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: a feeling cult Mom will never reconcile it because the 615 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: truth will be too awful. She'll think, oh, we calculated 616 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: the wrong day of the end of the world or 617 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: some other bs so she can still justify the murder 618 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: of her children. But I can tell you this much, 619 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 1: it's not gonna work with a jury. Joseph Morgan, Professor 620 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: of Forensics, jacksonvill State University and author, Thank you for 621 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: being with us. We wait as justice and false