1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe, Table four, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: and Adamized Studios. 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 2: There is no such thing as a simple phone call 4 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: with my beautiful friend Christian Amanpour. Asking, as I did yesterday, 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: where she's been, she answers Ukraine. Asking where she's going, 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: she says, Afghanistan. This is what it is like having 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: a fearless friend you love, who puts yourself in danger, 8 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: reporting facts, holding people to account, and telling the truth 9 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: from wherever she is and whoever she is talking to. 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 2: Christian goes on hiking trips, biking trips, retreats to her 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: house in the Eeldarray, flies to New York to see 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 2: her son Darius. The food of Persia is her passion. 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 2: Today I'm going to interview the most brilliant interviewer there is, 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: and today I think I'm the fearless one. I ask 15 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: everyone to read a recipe from one of our cookbooks, 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: and you said to me, Actually, what I'd like to 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: do is talk about at the box sets, because yeah, 18 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 2: and what do you read the menu for the box 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: set that you've chosen? 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 3: I will, so, of course River Cafe for cutua fabulous. 21 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 3: Then a zucchini the Dattarini tomatoes, broad beans, slow cook 22 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 3: summer peas never had those were great, Cannellini beans, an 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 3: Italian spirit. It all sounds simple, but it's delicious. The 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,919 Speaker 3: other thing I really love is the spatchcock chicken against 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: deceptive because it looks like it's only for a few people, 26 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 3: but it's for feeding the five thousand, basically. And the 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 3: other thing I love is the pistachio cake. Oh my goodness. Honestly, 28 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 3: I'm originally Persian, Iranian and English and anything pistachio I love, 29 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 3: and that is literally the best pistachio cake ever is 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 3: so good. So Ruthie, I chose a box set because, 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 3: to be Frank, I don't cook, and so to read 32 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 3: a recipe sounded a little bit inauthentic for me, no 33 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: matter how much I love eating your food at the 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: River Cafe. And I have been incredibly spoiled during COVID 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 3: and the last two years. Great friends people like Laura 36 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 3: and Eric Felner, Laura Bailey and Eric Feller who come 37 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 3: here a lot, spoiled me a lot with your box set, 38 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 3: and it was really something that was not just a 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 3: luxury but a massive comfort. And I'd gone through a 40 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: bit of an illness last year, and they really really 41 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 3: sustained me, especially when people came to my house. You know, 42 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: I was able to offer them things without myself having 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: to cook. 44 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: I don't mind if you don't make because you're you 45 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 2: know what what what we really? I mean, whether you 46 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: cook or you eat. And you do cook, and you 47 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: love food, and I think that you want to eat well. 48 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: But what we need Christian amanpour for and I need 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: you from my friend, but we all the world needs 50 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: you for the as I said, the fearless. Do you 51 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: like being all fearless? You know people say I'm fearless 52 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: because I ski down mountains. 53 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: No, I think fearless to be frank, I will give 54 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: you my definition. I said once that I've lived most 55 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: of my professional life in a state of repressed fear. 56 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 3: Because you'd really be dumb if you said you weren't 57 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 3: afraid of going to all these very terrifying places where 58 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: you are in the crosshairs. And you're also a target, 59 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 3: not just randomly injured or killed like so many of 60 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 3: us have been, because we're deliberately targeted. 61 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: So they know, they know who you are, and they 62 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: know where you are, and they know your retournalists and. 63 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 3: Me and anybody else is there with the words press 64 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 3: on their fronts or on their vehicles. Yeah, and they 65 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: do it because they don't want the truth out. 66 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that they would be give me some example. 67 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 3: Well, let's say in the Bosnia War, it was the 68 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 3: Bosnian Serb militants who were attacking the civilians in Sarajevo. 69 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: That was their battle plan, much like what Putin has 70 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: been doing in Ukraine. 71 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 2: Christian what was it like living under siege in Sarajevo. 72 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: Well, it became the longest siege in modern history. It 73 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: was nearly three years long, which meant that the Bosnian Serbs, 74 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 3: backed by Serbia, who were also backed then by Russia, 75 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: were besieging a city of ordinary civilians in the most 76 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: medieval way. And it meant that food wasn't coming in. 77 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 3: It meant that, you know, they cut off heat, electricity, water, 78 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: and they were bombarding. What then happened was that the 79 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: United Nations got an agreement to have an airlift into 80 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 3: the Sarajevo airport and only those people the UN was 81 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 3: able to use it, and they would bring in pallets 82 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 3: of humanitarian aids, so big palettes came in by military 83 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 3: cargo planes, and they were your basics, what flower, oil, beans, cans, 84 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: stuff that was nonperishable that people could use. But the 85 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 3: motif in terms of food was severe food poverty the 86 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: very very first winter under siege. And it sounds like 87 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: a cliche, and I didn't even believe it till I 88 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 3: saw it, but literally, people were foraging, honestly, trying to 89 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 3: get dandelion leaves and grasses and things like that that 90 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: they might be able to boil up into something. Some 91 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 3: of them may have had little vegetable gardens with lettuce 92 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: or spinach or whatever it was, but there was no 93 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 3: real protein. They could make bread because flower was coming 94 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: in eventually by the UN, but it was basic. And 95 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: you know, I just remember living in the holiday in 96 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 3: with all the press there. I didn't realize until afterwards. 97 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 3: The managers had to pretty much bribe the besiegers and 98 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: some of the UN peacekeeping forces who came in to 99 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 3: get things like eggs and to get things like, I 100 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: don't know whatever. We didn't need much. We really didn't 101 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 3: to do with not much. It was nothing very tasty, 102 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 3: But I will never forget what an effort they made 103 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 3: to keep us fed. There was some breakfast. Again, bread 104 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 3: featured a lot. Sometimes we had some of the local 105 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 3: fetter cheesy kind of stuff, which was like you know 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 3: that they could easily sort of get or bribe or 107 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 3: you know. I just don't remember much. There wasn't potatoes 108 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 3: or tomatoes or or anything. 109 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: Because all the farming or the the just like now 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: in Ukraine when it's bombed all the time and there's 111 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: a scorched earth policy, you can't actually grow. 112 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 3: And remember again this was an urban center, so anyway, 113 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 3: there wasn't much farming going on in the city of Sarajevo, 114 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 3: and it was it was a terrible situation. And I 115 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: remember when the seeds started to be slowly lifted, one 116 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 3: of my one of my friends went across the lines 117 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: and came back with a bag of I think it 118 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: was tomatoes, that's my memory, and it was the first 119 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 3: fresh tomatoes we'd seen. How long we've been there for years. 120 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 3: But of course I went in and out in a 121 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 3: military plane, which was the only way to get out 122 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 3: if you could. But I did spend most of the 123 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: of those three years of the nineties in Bosnia. 124 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: And when you would return on the plane from Sarajeva 125 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: going to Paris. Are you thinking about what you're going 126 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: to eat? 127 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 3: Are you thinking no, first time, thinking of leaving those 128 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 3: people behind and feeling very guilty. 129 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about the kindness of strangers, 130 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 2: you know, being in these very tough situations. Is the 131 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: connections Are they very firmly established. 132 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: Very firmly established, because to be frank, apart from anything else, 133 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: your life depends on having good relations with your competitors 134 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 3: and your colleagues, you know. 135 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 2: And the people of the city. 136 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, they were mostly grateful for us to tell 137 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: their story, but and I have to say it is important, 138 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: they did begin to get angry. I remember them saying, 139 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: you know, turn your cameras away from us. This isn't 140 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 3: the Sarajevo Safari. You keep telling our stories and the 141 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 3: world doesn't intervene, doesn't help us. And those were very 142 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: painful moments because you did realize that they were telling 143 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 3: the truth, that yeah, we could go to them, talk 144 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 3: to them, get their experiences. See what they were trying 145 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: to cook for their families, which was pretty much nothing 146 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: in their little kitchens, and trying to survive this war 147 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 3: and nothing was happening. To help them, so then they 148 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: would take it out on us because we were the 149 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 3: closest for them. Yeah, and it was painful. That was painful. 150 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 3: So I have no illusion that we are well comes 151 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: with open arms and we're the great saviors at all. 152 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: At all. We do a job. We if we're lucky, 153 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: we tell the truth and the truth gets out. And 154 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 3: if we're very, very lucky, it causes intervention. So it 155 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 3: didn't in Sarajevo until the Cerebnitza massacre, which was nearly 156 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: three years well three years after the war started. Of course, 157 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 3: in Ukraine it was totally different, and it's great that 158 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 3: the West did intervene to help Ukraine defend itself when 159 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: it was illegally occupied, invaded, and the Russians went to 160 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: war against them. So the difference in the world's reaction 161 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: is remarkable. 162 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: It shall we talk about it around? Yes, what did 163 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: your father and mother did? 164 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: My father was he worked in a travel agency, and 165 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: my mom was, you know, what do you call it? 166 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 3: A homemaker? And she looked after us. We're four girls. 167 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: I'm the oldest of my mother English Catholic, my father 168 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: Iranian Moslim. So I grew up in a very mixed 169 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 3: ethnic and you know household that I think served me 170 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 3: very well in my career because I then understood that 171 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: actually you can get past identity. You can actually always 172 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 3: find the commonality in people. And you know, the idea 173 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: of mixed ethnicities or religions or nationalities means nothing to me. 174 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 3: It's just normal, normal, normal, normal. Also, my mum was 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 3: a very strong woman and really did run the household 176 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: and was very influential on us and let's say our 177 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: moral and spiritual education. I'm quite a strict Catholic and 178 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 3: was my father allowed it, never said I'm the man 179 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: and I'm Muslim and you have to bring up in Iran, 180 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 3: you know, the kids as Muslims. None of that. He 181 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 3: absolutely agreed to my mother's demands. But it was a 182 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 3: very I just remember a very very happy household that 183 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 3: actually revolved around my mother's cooking. 184 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: Oh that's what I was going to ask. So your 185 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: mother was British? 186 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: Yes? 187 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: Did your mother bring British film? 188 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 3: Really? You see, I don't even think, well, yes and no. 189 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: I don't know whether my mother was a particularly accomplished 190 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: cook before she got married. I think she learned on 191 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 3: the job, so to speak, and she did become excellent, 192 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: and we were the only ones really that in my 193 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: group of friends that were serving more sort of Western food. 194 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: So my friends would come to my house for my 195 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 3: mother's pizza, for her chocolate cake, which was I think 196 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: kind of like a flowerless chocolate cake before I even 197 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 3: knew that that was the case, but a very rich 198 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: chocolate cake that was beautifully iced and was delicious, and 199 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 3: everybody loved it. And chocolate moose. I mean, I have 200 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: such great memories of my mum making these things and 201 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 3: that I would be sitting at the table just trying 202 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: to grab the spoon like all kids do, you know, 203 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 3: and lick the spoon and just love it. An angel cake. 204 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 3: So we had the chocolate cake and then the angel 205 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 3: cake and it. It just was sort of a theme 206 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 3: of my childhood that my friends loved it and were 207 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 3: always anxious to come to my house. 208 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: And what about the Persian. 209 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: Well, the Persian food was mostly when we went out 210 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 3: to friends' houses or to families houses, but also on 211 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: a Friday, which is sort of the Sunday in the 212 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: Middle East. It's like the Sabbath Friday. Everybody's the holiday 213 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 3: of the weekend, and the traditional Persian rural meal is 214 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: called cello kabab. Cello is the rice. Cello cabab is 215 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: the rice. So it's this pile of steaming white rice 216 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: with saffron on the top and a crust underneath, which 217 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 3: is very and it's very difficult to cheap. Yeah, it's 218 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: really tough to make. I do Actually I did it well. 219 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 3: First of all, you have to boil the rice al 220 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 3: dente as if you were doing pasta. Then you take 221 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: it out. You've already washed it, got rid of all 222 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: the extrain, your starch. You take it out, and then 223 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 3: you have this very substantial iron pot, and you probably 224 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 3: melt a little butter in the bottom and let that 225 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 3: go all over the bottom. Then you take a layer 226 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 3: of the rice and you pack it down very hard. 227 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 3: Then you put the rest of the rice in. Remembering 228 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 3: Irun you cook for lots of people, so this is 229 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: a big pot. So you put a thin layer, yes, 230 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 3: and pack it down now, yes, and then you put 231 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 3: the other pyramid on. You put holes with the you know, 232 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 3: with the handle of a spoon. You pour in copious 233 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: amounts of melted butter, and then you put a top 234 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 3: covered by a dish towel. And that then steams. You 235 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 3: put the heat on quite high for about ten minutes 236 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: to give the crispiness. Then you immediately turn it down 237 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: and the rest is about thirty to forty minutes of 238 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 3: steaming this rice, so you have a very light but 239 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: buttery rice saffron. Then you pour on afterwards when you've 240 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 3: dished it up. And if you've done it right, and 241 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 3: you've got the high heat low heat done just right, 242 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 3: you get this wonderful crust called taddig. 243 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: And this is from who says she doesn't like to cook. 244 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: I like to remember. 245 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: Sorry, I like. 246 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: To remember, and I like to eat exactly. 247 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: But can I just ask you in that maybe I 248 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: got it wrong. But the rice was cooked before you pressed. 249 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 3: It down, cooked, so it's still very fluffy. You don't 250 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 3: overcook it. 251 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: You don't worrying about cooking and then cook. 252 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 3: That's why you have to make it aldente. It's not 253 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 3: like you put a bunch of rice on us and 254 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: then let all the water absorb. Okay, And it's really delicious. 255 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: And then the thing that went with it is called 256 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: is the cab of the meat. So it's either boneless 257 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: chicken or chicken on the bone or it's minced lamb 258 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 3: with other stuff that you put in it. Don't ask 259 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 3: me because I haven't done it. Or it's more of 260 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: a file steak like the pile, a very tender and 261 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 3: that you put on the bus. I like it all. 262 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 3: I don't not so keen on the mince. I find 263 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: that somewhat sometimes a little indigestible. But you know, before 264 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 3: the age of salmonella and all the rest of it, 265 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 3: instead of when you served the rice, you would get 266 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 3: a raw egg. Crack the egg, separate the white from 267 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 3: the yolk, and then you put the yolk in the 268 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 3: rice and mix that up. Instead of butter, because you've 269 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 3: already got a lot of butter. 270 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: If there are even yeah, I think if you heat once, 271 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: you eat it up. But going back to Tehran, your 272 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: father was version and did you have grandparents? 273 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 3: Yes, you see, my father was nineteen years older than 274 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 3: my mother and he was the youngest of five boys. 275 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 3: So just imagine how old My grandmother was, very very old, 276 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: And all I remember was this very old lady who 277 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 3: was quite terrifying, quite strict. But we did visit her 278 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 3: on Fridays. I remember again, that's the holiday. And all 279 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 3: I remember is that we would come in. She would 280 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 3: be sat at the end of the room in what 281 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: looked like an armchair throwne and then all of us 282 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: would be arranged, you know, around the sides of the 283 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: room and in front of us with these little tiny 284 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: side table on which were very carefully peeled oranges, I remember, 285 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 3: And so we'd eat the oranges and have some pistachio nuts, 286 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: and it was quite formal. We'd have to go and 287 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 3: kiss each cheek and then honestly we couldn't wait to leave. 288 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: But I'm sure she was fabulous, and to be frank, 289 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: I wish I'd known more about my granda. Maybe she 290 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: was tired, for sure, I mean the mother. 291 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: And I think I'm going to try, you know, giving 292 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 2: my children nuts. 293 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, because it is, and it's an interesting history. 294 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 3: You remember her, she definitely remember her. 295 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: Being nineteen. 296 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: My father's father had died, so I never met him, 297 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 3: and my father barely knew him. One thing I do 298 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 3: remember about tomatoes though, My dad said that when he 299 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: was the youngest of these five strapping boys, they used 300 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 3: to bully him and jump on top of him and 301 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 3: get this stuff his mouth with tomatoes, which he hated. 302 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: Funny, I remember that story of memory. And he didn't 303 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: cook at all. 304 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 3: No, but he did do a mean vinigrette. And to 305 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: this day that's my vinaigrette, and I teach it to whoever. 306 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: Comes in my. 307 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 4: I'm not going to tell me yet. No the rest, 308 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 4: I'm not going to tell you. I don't want to 309 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 4: tell the world no secret. 310 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: Oh that's you know. There's some people the thing I 311 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 2: know sometimes they always say that restaurants, will you know, 312 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: give a recipe and then leave something out or you know, but. 313 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 3: Then it would be no good if I gave it 314 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 3: and then left something out. 315 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that. 316 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 4: It's the only thing I know. It's the only secret 317 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 4: I have a good vinagrette. It is hard to me, 318 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 4: it is. 319 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: You know. 320 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 3: And my dad. I always remember my dad, you know, 321 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 3: he died in twenty sixteen, and I always remember that 322 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: when ever I have the vinaigrette. 323 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 2: And have you told it to Daris? 324 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: Yes, and to whoever comes into my orbit and you know, 325 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: needs to make some vinaigrette. 326 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember going to markets in Tehran? 327 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 3: Not markets? Well, actually no I did. They're called bazaars. Obviously, 328 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,479 Speaker 3: It's not like the French or Italian or British markets, 329 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: but bazaars which were I guess almost even more magnificent, 330 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 3: because I mean, if anybody's been to the Great Bazaar 331 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 3: in Istanbul, imagine that in all the other Middle Eastern countries. 332 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 3: And we used to go. I do remember my mother 333 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: would do the shopping. Obviously, I would just be amazed 334 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 3: by the color and the vibrancy and that I want 335 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: this and I want that, even if I didn't know 336 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 3: what it was. I'm afraid that the men at that 337 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 3: time were very cheeky and quite intrusive. So I used 338 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 3: to go, not knowing any better, in my shorts or 339 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: my short skirt or whatever and get my bum pinched. 340 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 3: That was quite dirry ger in those days. My mom 341 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 3: told me from now on I had to bring a 342 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 3: flip flop, you know, sandal, hold it behind my bum 343 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 3: and if anybody dared boo, you know, bang them. It 344 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 3: really worked. 345 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: When I went to Syria with Richard, we went to 346 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 2: Damascus and we went to the bazaar again. The food 347 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 2: it was very different from the market you would see 348 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: in France or Italy, and was even more compelling because 349 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: there was the sanctions. There was no Coca Cola sign. 350 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: There was not you know, any Hamburgers or anything Western 351 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: at all, and was growing up in the Shahs. Was 352 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 2: that more American? Was it because there was a good relationship, Yeah, 353 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: I mean it was, it was. 354 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 3: It was. It was more friendly to the West, for sure. 355 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 3: But remember it was only a minority of people who 356 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 3: were able to benefit from that. Although he did bring 357 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: in you know, education rights for women all of that. 358 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: But in the end, you know, there was this religious 359 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: revolution in nineteen seventy nine, theocracy, and to be honest, weirdly, 360 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: the Iranian Revolution propelled me into my career because that's 361 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 3: when I realized, a I needed to make it on 362 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 3: my own. I could not rely on my lovely parents 363 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 3: and my idyllic childhood and whatever they thought I might 364 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 3: do with the rest of my life, and I needed 365 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 3: to make my way. 366 00:18:50,359 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 5: In the world. 367 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 3: The Iranian Revolution was a first hand experienced historical earthquake 368 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: that clearly still has reverberations to this day, and I 369 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: realized that I actually want to tell those kind of stories. 370 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 2: So you were actually there when Harmony. 371 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 3: My father sent me out about two weeks if I 372 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 3: remember before for many came back. Yeah, he came back 373 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 3: around the first of February and I was sent out 374 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 3: in the mid middle January nineteen seventy nine, and I'm 375 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,239 Speaker 3: glad well first to England, where my English grandmother was, 376 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: and then on to America to go to university. I 377 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 3: decided that's where I needed to make my way in 378 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 3: the world, to go to university be a journalist. 379 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: Did you have experience of the United States and Britain? 380 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 2: It wasn't like being lifted from Iran. 381 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 3: I had no experience with the United States. I'd visited 382 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 3: once as a teenager, but that's it. But I obviously, 383 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 3: you know, every summer I would go and stay with 384 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 3: my mother's family. We would all go to England for 385 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 3: the summer holiday. 386 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 2: And you didn't have pistasia nuts. 387 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: We didn't. My grandmother was a very very simple cook, 388 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 3: but great you know, crem caramel, roast, pork and crackling. 389 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 3: Those were the things fish fingers and when. 390 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 2: You were living with your grandmother alone your parents were 391 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 2: still in Tehran. 392 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't really live with her really much. I mean, 393 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: we were in boarding school for a period of time 394 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: during the seventies, my sister and I and we went, 395 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 3: you know, for half terms and weekends because the parents 396 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 3: were living in Iran. That's where our home was, but 397 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: we'd go back for the major holidays and then. 398 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 2: You were on your own. So tell the story of 399 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 2: what happened and when you went to the United States, 400 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: so you. 401 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 3: Know us kind of easy. My first year was you know, 402 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 3: refertory food or whatever you call it, canteen food, disaware 403 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 3: and gusting. 404 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: Okay, tell me about that. 405 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 3: The university in the US. My first year I was 406 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 3: at the University of Rhode Island, which I loved. It 407 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 3: was in Kingston, Rhode Island. After about a year, I 408 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 3: then lived off campus with friends and that's where I 409 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 3: first learned to cook. 410 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: Okay, that's fact. 411 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 3: I have brought a little prop because this, for me 412 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: is a comfort blanket. It's a tiny, slim tome. It's 413 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 3: called in a Persian kitchen. It's got a illustration of 414 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 3: a Persian dancer and a woman holding a basket of fruit. 415 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 3: And it's very very well thumbed and dirty. As you 416 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 3: can see, it's had a lot of you know stuff. 417 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 3: I set up a rota so we were five. We 418 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 3: each had a day of the week where we'd go 419 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: to the supermarket and shop for the week. Each week, 420 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 3: one different person did it, and each night of the 421 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 3: week a different person would cook and that was fab 422 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 3: And so I would cook out of this Persian cookbook 423 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: and it was great. And that's where I first learned 424 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: about tofu. One of my roommates was vegetarian, another one 425 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: did trout, another one did hamburgers or steak. It was 426 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,239 Speaker 3: really amazing. But what was really great was that we 427 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 3: ate well every night at home, and we had we 428 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: would invite friends. It became like the River Cafe, a 429 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 3: hot ticket roof people wanted to to our. 430 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: We are the only non American in my group. Yeah, yeah, okay, 431 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: did you cook? Yes? 432 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 3: I did, And if I could get the taddi right, 433 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 3: the crust I was in very popular that night. If not, 434 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 3: there was some complaints. But it was cool because you know, 435 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 3: it was the eighties. We talked about the campaign for 436 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,680 Speaker 3: nuclear disarmament, anti apartheid, and to this day I have 437 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 3: family lunches and group dinners. 438 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 2: And usually go Sundays Sunday Sundays, and I often ask you, 439 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: if you want to do something on a Sunday you're 440 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: with your family, what about cooking for your son? 441 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 3: Well, I mean my son to be Frank is a 442 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 3: better cook than I am, and I'm so grateful that 443 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 3: he's a great cook and he likes it. He likes it, 444 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 3: he loves it. I did do stuff, but I'm not brilliant. 445 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: His dad taught him how to do pancakes and things 446 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 3: like that. It's very good breakfast cook there is his dad. 447 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 3: But you know I did some stuff. I can do 448 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 3: a roast chicken, Ruthie. 449 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: The Global Central Kitchen in Ukraine, did you get involved 450 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 2: in to do? 451 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 3: Jose Chef Jose Andress, who is an amazing man, as 452 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: you know. Yeah, and he's got this amazing operation called 453 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 3: World Central Kitchen, which he takes I think, if I'm 454 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: not mistaken, he first started in Puerto Rico Hurricane Maria, 455 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 3: and what he did was quite simple. It's not again, 456 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 3: it's not like just hand out. He comes, he scopes 457 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 3: the situation. He looks at all the local restaurants or 458 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 3: bars or whatever and mobilizes them to be able to 459 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 3: cook and helps them if he has to bring in 460 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 3: supplies and things like that to feed their communities. So 461 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: it starts small ish in terms of how many meals 462 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: per day they're able to deliver, and then it gathers momentum, 463 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 3: and they have a very very good social media platform 464 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 3: now and they've got a lot of help. But what 465 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: they do is is quite revolutionary because in wartime or 466 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 3: in crisis, they do what others can't do and it 467 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 3: has a huge impact. 468 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: And they worked with other with restaurants I didn't understand, yes, 469 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: carrying boxes from restaurants to people. 470 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 3: Train stations, to hospitals, to refugee centers to places like that. 471 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 3: And they even had to, you know, try to get 472 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,479 Speaker 3: the train lines, the railway lines to help move things 473 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 3: from one city to another. It was quite an operation. 474 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it's really something yeah, logistical. 475 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: And what was it like for you being there? Was 476 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: it very different from Sarajevo? Was there? 477 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 3: It was somewhat different, but it was I was there 478 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: during a turning point which was really interesting, and that's 479 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 3: when the Ukrainians pushed the Russians back from Kiev. So 480 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 3: I was in Kiev at that period and I could 481 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: see with my own eyes, you know, how the momentum 482 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 3: on the ground was shifting, and how the incredible support 483 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: of NATO led by the United States and many other 484 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 3: European countries and their neighboring countries was really making a difference. 485 00:24:54,280 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 3: And yeah, well Ukraine food there entity there is. I 486 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 3: would I don't want to overtalk it because I didn't 487 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: get to experience much of that in restaurants. But you know, 488 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 3: soups what they call dumplings obviously their version aborched, yes, 489 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 3: which they are very clear. It's not like the Russia. 490 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 3: A lot of meat, a lot of potatoes. As you know, 491 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 3: Ukraine is the bread basket of Europe, so it's going 492 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: to be very difficult. Yeah, yeah, and Africa and even 493 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: Russia is the fertilizer central for the world. So this 494 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 3: war is going to and people are very concerned and 495 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: international leaders are very concerned that it will not only exacerbate, 496 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 3: you know, food poverty around the world, it could lead 497 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 3: to famines and depending on how long it goes on, 498 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 3: it could lead to unrest. Remember the Arab Springs started 499 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,199 Speaker 3: in Tunisia because of the high price of food and 500 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 3: food poverty. 501 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: So we're looking at a real crisis. 502 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 3: It's a huge crisis. And Uin has shown the world 503 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: that when they try to react just gently like they 504 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 3: did in twenty fourteen, he just rolls right over the 505 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 3: rest of the world. 506 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: Have you ever interviewed him. 507 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 3: No, I'd like to interviewed Zelenski just before the invasion. 508 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: It was just amazing. He was incredible, really incredible, and 509 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 3: he came with a warning to the West. It was 510 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 3: in Munich what's called the Music Security Conference. It was nineteenth. 511 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 3: The invasion was on the twenty fourth. He actually came 512 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 3: out of his country. And you're like this because it's 513 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 3: about food. I said to him, mister President, most people 514 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: here didn't expect you to be here. You've got the 515 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 3: threat of an invasion the United States. Your biggest backers 516 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 3: have suggested you don't leave at this precise moment. And 517 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: he said, I had breakfast in Kiev. I'm having lunch 518 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: in Munich to tell you our story and what we need, 519 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: and I'm going to have dinner in Kiev tonight. 520 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: Now is there any city that really means something to 521 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 2: you for food? I mean that you think I'm going 522 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 2: to this city. I know where I wanted, I know 523 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: what I wanted to eat. And now. 524 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 3: Paris and Elderay, which is not a city, has lovely, 525 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 3: lovely restaurants, very simple, really also delicious, London, New York. 526 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 3: I mean to be honest with you, I am very 527 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 3: ecumenical about all of that, because they're great restaurants all 528 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: over the world and in the most unlikely places. One 529 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 3: of the great things that Anthony Bourdain did for the world, 530 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 3: God rest his soul, was show the world that in 531 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: the most unlikely corners, in the most unlikely places, as 532 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: well as in the obvious places, the idea of food 533 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 3: was always there, and the greatest food and the greatest 534 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 3: experience and atmospheres. And I think, actually, what you're doing 535 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 3: and what he did, there's no doubt that you bring 536 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 3: people together over food in every single way, whether in 537 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 3: joy and grief and friendship and family, whatever it. 538 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 2: Is, and comfort and comfort. So that's my last question 539 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: to you is if you need comfort, whether you are 540 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: probably when you're in a place where you can get 541 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: the food of your choice, is there a food that 542 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: you would turn to. I think I might know the answer. 543 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 3: Yes, you probably do know the answer. 544 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 5: You know. 545 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: It really is Persian food, and it's the white rise. 546 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 3: It's the usually the boneless chicken arm that goes with it, 547 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: and a grilled tomato that comes with it as well. 548 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 3: And if I'm feeling okay, I'll crack that egg yolk 549 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 3: in it. Yeah, and that will be it'll be rich, 550 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: but it'll also be very very comforting. 551 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: Be careful in Afghanistan, I will the. 552 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: Women there who've been so terribly, terribly marginalized again after 553 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 3: twenty years of promise and activity and showing how phenomenal 554 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 3: they are, they've been so marginalized. And by the way, 555 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: the dramatic food poverty in Afghanistan right now because of 556 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: the sanctions that have been put on the Taliban. It's 557 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 3: a tragedy, an absolute tragedy. 558 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 2: Come back. 559 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 3: I'm well, Chris, Thank you, Ruth. 560 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: River. 561 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: Cafe Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and Adamized Studios. 562 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 563 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.