1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to you stuff you missed in history class from 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: I'm Polly Fry, I'm Tracy Wilson, and the subject of 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: today's episode is the center of so many myths and 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: stories and rumors that it's a little bit hard to 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: separate fact from fiction. That we will do our best 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: to make sure we hit the actually documented elements of 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: his story. Uh. There are accounts of teleportation, involved alchemy, 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: even immortality that swirl around this person, who is the 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: Count of Saint Gema. You'll also see him referenced in 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: uh the foreign version of Comte de Saint Gema. Uh. 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 1: And did an immortal actually walk among the aristocrats of 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: Europe in the eighteenth century courts. I'm gonna say odds 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: or no, but he has some interesting in compelling fastest 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: to his story, he does seem to have perhaps convinced 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: many people that he did. Yeah. And he, you know, 17 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: allegedly could make himself invisible. He according to some accounts 18 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: New Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Some accounts even 19 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: put him at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Uh. However, 20 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: he could also turn let into gold apparently or something 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: close enough, according to one actual account that was written 22 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: in the letter, and we'll talk about that more specifically. 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: But what was the real deal with this guy? Was 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: he a charlatan? Was he an actual legit mystic, or 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: was he just sort of a madman caught up in 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: his own lies. I'm not sure that the truth has 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: to include or exclude any or all of those, because 28 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: it's really there's a lot of stuff involved and many 29 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: layers and weirdness made a weird noise. That's how. That's 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: how I am that one of the things possibilities is 31 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: not the right one. I am generally a very skeptical person, 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: so I, you know, suspect that not the real deal. 33 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: But that's you know, yeah, that is I'm kind of 34 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: an occam's razor kind of galt. Well, I am the 35 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: uh the extreme claims require extreme evidence, which you know, 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: some guy wrote us in a journal does not count, right. Uh. So, 37 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: normally we would do early history on people and well 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: kind of, but when we get to the like when 39 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: was he born? Well, m sure, it's really tricky in 40 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: this particular one because there are different stories and in 41 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: some cases no story. Most reputable sources that try to 42 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: put his birth somewhere on the timeline put it somewhere 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: between seventeen ten and seventeen twelve, and there were times 44 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 1: late in the count's life that he claimed that he 45 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: was the son of the Transylvanian Prince Farrank, the second Requezee, 46 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: who led a Hungarian uprising called the Curic Revolt against 47 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: the Habsburg Empire, and recas he had several sons, one 48 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: of whom died as a child, and those who believe 49 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: that Count Sangrement was the Transylvanian Prince's son claimed that 50 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: that death, the death of the child, had been fake 51 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: to protect the young boy in the midst of this 52 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: political tumult, and this version of the count's origins, if 53 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: you buy into that, actually puts his birth a little 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:28,839 Speaker 1: bit earlier, around six. There's a lot bit earlier it does. 55 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: But you know, he was ageless, much like Dick Clark. 56 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: So I was gonna say Dorian Gray. I went with 57 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: a less impressive and more pop culturally reference. Yes. So 58 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: he first appeared in historical documentation much later. In seventeen 59 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: forty five, he was mentioned in a letter from Horace Walpole, 60 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: who was the fourth Earl of Orford and the author 61 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: of the horror fiction of the Castle of a Toronto, 62 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: which is like one of the first horror novels in English. 63 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: I read it before you. I'm sure you can find 64 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: it a fre on the internet. Um. So this letter 65 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: was from Horace Walpole to Horace Mann, who was a 66 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: London merchant and diplomat, not to be confused with the 67 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: American educator by the same name that he was around 68 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: about a hundred years later. So the two Horaces maintained 69 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: a friendship through correspondence for more than four decades, and 70 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: on December nine Walpole wrote the following We begin to 71 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: take up people, but it is with as much caution 72 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: and timidity as women of quality begins upon their jewels. 73 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: We have not ventured upon any great stone yet. The 74 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: Provost of Edinburgh is in custody of a messenger, and 75 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: the other day they seized an odd man who goes 76 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: by the name of Count Saint Germain. He has been 77 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: here these two years and will not tell who he 78 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: is or WinCE, but professes that he does not go 79 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: by his right name. He sings places on the violin 80 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: wonderfully composes is mad and not very sensible. He is 81 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: called in the Allian a spaniard, a pole, a somebody 82 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: that married a great fortune in Mexico and ran away 83 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: with her jewels to Constantinople, a priest, a fiddler, a 84 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: vast nobleman. The Prince of Wales has had unsatiated curiosity 85 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: about him, but in Vain, however, nothing has been made 86 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: out against him. He is released, and what convinces me 87 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: that he is not a gentleman stays here and talks 88 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: of his being taken up for a spy. So the 89 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: Count was arrested and released and then opted to hang 90 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: out and talk about his arrest and how he was 91 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: suspected of being a spy. He had been suspected of 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: being a Jacobite agent, but was released when nobody could 93 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: find any evidence of it. And in seventeen forty six, 94 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: roughly a year after this letter was written, so at 95 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: this point he's been in London for about three years. 96 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: A performance of musical compositions by the Count took place, 97 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: and those musical pieces were also published at the same time, 98 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: and the Count was apparently genuinely talented as a composer. 99 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: He wrote at least forty Italian arias, seven solos for 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: violin and six trio sonatas, as well as other things, 101 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: but those are kind of some of the high point 102 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: of his uh CV as a composer. However, after this 103 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: this musical um composition publication, he vanishes from the record, 104 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: either he left London or kind of faded into the 105 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: background for a while. And during his time on the 106 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: d L he said to have been in Vienna for 107 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: a while and then in India. And I should point out, 108 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: as we talked about kind of these kind of major 109 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: U turning points in his story of him being in 110 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: a location, he was allegedly kind of constantly traveling. So 111 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: even if he was kind of setting up regular um 112 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: house in some particular space, he was also probably going 113 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: out and visiting many other places at the same time. Allegedly. 114 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: Then he appeared in Versailles in seventy eight. Uh the 115 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 1: count next appeared in Versailles in seventeen forty eight, and 116 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: char Louis, a goose Que Duke de Bellisle, made Saint 117 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: Germain's introductions at court, presenting this mysterious count as an 118 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: expert in die and textiles, and this being the Court 119 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: of France in the eighteenth century. That was basically enough said, uh, 120 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: you know someone who can make beautiful things, You're in right. 121 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: And so for two years he made himself extremely comfortable 122 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: in French society. He went to parties and charmed everybody there. 123 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: He started dropping little hints about being a very extraordinary individual. 124 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: He would give away diamonds, saying that he could just 125 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: make them. He would play the harpsichord and the violin 126 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: with very great skill. He would give beauty advice to 127 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: the ladies of the court, and he eventually gained the 128 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: ear of King Louis the fifteenth himself. And one of 129 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: Saint Germain's habits was to set up a lab wherever 130 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: he went, which is where he would do things like 131 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: mixed beauty elixers for the ladies. He would die fabrics 132 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: and other media, and he would also work his alchemy. Uh. 133 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because he was apparently quite a good chemist. 134 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: He really was good at like textile dying and coming 135 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: up with different paints. One story says that he made 136 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: a paint that was odor free, which at the time 137 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: was completely unusual. It's unusual now, um, but then there 138 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: was always also this alchemy element to it and he 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: said to have removed a flaw from deep within a 140 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: diamond for King Louis the fifteen without diminishing its size, 141 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: but he would never disclose how he achieved this feat. 142 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: I have an idea, you do that he did not 143 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: do this for real. I'm extremely skeptical about his whole story, 144 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: like I have an idea, no so um. During this time, 145 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: he allegedly had an exchange with an elderly countess who 146 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: had accompanied her husband to Venice in the early seventeen hundreds. 147 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: A countess asked him whether his father had been in 148 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: Venice in seventeen ten, and he is said to have replied, no, madam, 149 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: it is very much longer since I lost my father. 150 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: But I myself was living in Venice at the end 151 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: of the last and the beginning of this century. I 152 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: had the honor to pay you court then, and you 153 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: were kind enough to admire a few barkar rolls of 154 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: my composing, which we used to sing together. And the 155 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: countess was rather befuddled at this, and she told the 156 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: count no, no, this could not be the case. The 157 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: man she was speaking of had been in his mid forties, 158 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: and that was the age that the count appeared before 159 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: her there in the Court of France, and again she's 160 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: referencing seventeen ten and this is, you know, in the 161 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: seventeen fifties, and U he replied to her, just simply, Madam, 162 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: I am very old. I totally saw this conversation and 163 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: one of the Lord of the Rings extended editions He's 164 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: wanted Dona Dines. So basically, any time the account was 165 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: questioned about his past, particularly his childhood, he would get 166 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: into these astounding tales or divert the conversation to another topic. 167 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: And this really got tongues wagging and created all the 168 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: speculative gossip around him. Yeah, which in the court of 169 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: France at this time, I mean publicity. Uh. And while 170 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: he was in France and rubbing shoulders with royalty, he 171 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: had this other weird cork which added to this sort 172 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: of cloud of speculation, which is that he allegedly never 173 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: ate in public. Uh. Though according to some accounts, he 174 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: would occasionally eat in front of people, but it was 175 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: only oatmeal or lean cuts of chicken. Uh. And in 176 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: some accounts he tells people that this is all he eats, 177 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: rather than them actually witnessing it. But this just added 178 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: to his sensational reputation, which just grew super rapidly. Also 179 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: growing very rapidly was his responsibility to the king. King 180 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: Louis the fifteenth started sending him on missions, sometimes of 181 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: a rather unclear nature, and this is what led to 182 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: rumors that he was the King's personal spy. It also 183 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: drew the scorn of lots of other people. Yeah, you 184 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: couldn't really be the King's favorite without making people angry, uh, 185 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: And the Duc de Chois was particularly suspicious of the 186 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: seemingly mystical Count. And there was also um a matter 187 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: of heightened tensions because this was all going on at 188 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: the height of the Seven Years War between England and France. 189 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: So for him to be a secret spy with the 190 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: ear of the king during this time just it was 191 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: a very tenth time and it made people that should 192 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: have been important in state affairs kind of left out 193 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: of the loop of these doings, and that was an irritant. 194 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: While Sant Germain was traveling to Amsterdam on business for 195 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: the King, Choazoe and the Count of Affrey were exchanging 196 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: letters about what he was doing. San Germain had told 197 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: the Count of Affrey that Amsterdam finances were in just 198 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: a terrible state, and that he alone could fix them. 199 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: He pitched this scheme to do so, which involved lots 200 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: and lots of moving parts and the establishment of a 201 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: fund for France to be bankrolled by the Dutch. He 202 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: also told Afrey that he had made all these plans 203 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: without the knowledge of the higher authorities. I mean that 204 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: he had been sent with this general sort of mission 205 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: to negotiate peace between the warring countries. Sounds pretty shady. Yeah, 206 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: Afrey was there in amsterda him and he was receiving 207 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: this man and talking to him and being like, wait, 208 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: you want to do what? Uh? And in the meantime, Uh. 209 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: Chwizoi had also intercepted this letter from Saint Germain to 210 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: the Marquise de Pompadour, who was King Louis the fifteenth 211 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: Chief Mistress. And in this letter, Saint Gerement deeply mischaracterized 212 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: his connections at the Hague. So while Schwizoi and Afrey 213 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: were comparing notes, they did not match up to what 214 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: Uh the Count was saying was going on when they 215 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: saw this letter that he had written the Marquise Uh. 216 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: And this letter, combined with the accounts from the Count 217 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: of Afrey, we're really quite damning for Saint Gerement and 218 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: a letter that went from Schwizoi to Affrey on March 219 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: nine sixty. This is this is what was written down. Sir, 220 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: I send you a letter from Monsieur de Saint Germain 221 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: to the Marquise de Pompadour, which in itself will suffice 222 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: to expose the absurdity of the personage. He is an 223 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: adventurer of the first order, who is, moreover, so far 224 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: as I have seen, exceedingly foolish. I beg you immediately, 225 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: on receiving my letter, to summon him to your house 226 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: and to tell him from me that I do not 227 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: know how the King's Minister in charge of the Finance 228 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: department will look on his conduct with regard to this object, 229 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: but that as to myself, you are ordered to warn 230 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: him that if I learn that far or near, and 231 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: much or little he chooses to meddle with politics, I 232 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: assure him that I shall obtain an order from the 233 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: King that on his return to France, he will be 234 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: placed for the rest of his days in an underground dungeon. 235 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: Exclamation point. It goes on. You will add that he 236 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: may be quite sure that these intentions of mine concerning 237 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: him are as since year as they will surely be executed. 238 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: If you give me the opportunity of keeping my word. 239 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: After this declaration, you will request him never again to 240 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: set foot in your house, and it will be well 241 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: for you to make public and known to all the 242 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 1: foreign ministers as well as the bankers of Amsterdam, the 243 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: compliment that you have been commanded to pay to this 244 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: insufferable adventurer. Yeah, Santa German did not returned to France. 245 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: No Uh. He fled to England after this all went down, 246 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: but he did not stay there for terribly long. And 247 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: before we go on to his next crazy adventure, do 248 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: you want to take a moment and here to work 249 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: from our sponsors. So now back to the illustrious count. 250 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: In seventeen sixty three, Saint German turned up in Belgium, 251 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: and this time he was going by the name of Surmont. 252 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: You may recall that I mentioned in the Rose Barton 253 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: episode people would change their names frequently at this time, uh, 254 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: and the Count was a pro at that he was 255 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: constantly going by different name Aimes uh. And he purchased 256 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: a parcel of land there in Belgium, and he set 257 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: up a lamb, and his intent was to enter into 258 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: a contract of the Belgian government to provide them certain 259 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: proprietary chemical processes that he had developed. So some of 260 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: these things, like you know, specific dies and paints that 261 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: he had been working on. One of the most important 262 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: aspects of this attempt at a business deal with Belgium 263 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: comes in the form of a letter sent by an 264 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: official who met with San German slash Sermont. This official, 265 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: Carl Cobenzel, sent the following in a note to Prince Count. 266 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: It's the Prime minister, and he says it was about 267 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: three months ago that the person known by the name 268 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: of Compte de Saint Germain passed this way and came 269 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: to see me. I found him the most singular man 270 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: that I ever saw in my life. I do not 271 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: yet precisely know his birth. I believe, however, that he 272 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: is the son of a clandestine union in a powerful 273 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: and illustrious family, possessing great wealth. He lives in the 274 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: greatest of simplicity. He knows everything and shows an uprightness, 275 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: a goodness of soul worthy of admiration. Among a number 276 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: of his accomplishments he made under my own eyes, some experiments, 277 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: of which the most important were the transmutation of iron 278 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: into a metal as beautiful as gold and at least 279 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: as good for all goldsmith's work. The dying and preparation 280 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: of skins carried to a perfection which surpassed all the 281 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: moroccos in the world, and the most perfect tanning. The 282 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: dying of silks carried to a perfection hitherto unknown, the 283 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: like dying of woolens, the dying of wood in the 284 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: most brilliant colors, penetrating through and through, and the whole 285 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: without either indigo or cocael, with the commonest ingredients, and 286 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: consequently at a very moderate price, the composition of colors 287 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: for painting ultramarine is as perfect as is made from 288 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: lapis leslie. And finally, removing the smell from painting oils, 289 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: and making the best oil of Provence from the oils 290 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: of Novette, of cost and from others even the worst 291 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: I have in my hands. All these productions made under 292 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: my own eyes. I have had them undergo the most 293 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: strict examinations, and seeing in these articles a profit which 294 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: might mount up to millions, I have endeavored to take 295 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: advantage of the friendship that this man has felt for 296 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: me and to learn from him. All these secrets. He 297 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: has given them to me, and he asks nothing for 298 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: himself beyond a payment proportionate to the profits that might 299 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,680 Speaker 1: may accrue from them, it being understood that this shall 300 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: be only when the profit has been made. So this 301 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: letter creates a public record of San German's alchemical skills, 302 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: and whether Cobenzel was duped or was some sort of 303 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: co conspirator is not really known. Yeah, we don't have 304 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,400 Speaker 1: those actual samples he claimed to have to back any 305 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: of it up. Well, and if if anybody had really 306 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: ever figured out how to turn lead into gold, surely 307 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: that would have spread like wildfire. Yeah, or someone would 308 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: still be plying that trade. Yeah. Well, you know that 309 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: was like the big alchemical quest for a really long time, 310 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: Like let's figure out how to turn base metals into gold. Yeah, 311 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: we know that does not really work. That's Antoine Lavoisier 312 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: would have some things to say. This letter, as you said, 313 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: creates this public record. Uh. But the deal fell through 314 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: just the same, and Saint Germain moved on, and the 315 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: years after things went south in Belgium, he basically went 316 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: all over the globe, maybe not all over the globe. 317 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 1: He went a lot of places. Uh. In seventeen sixty two, 318 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: Saint Germain was in St. Petersburg just in time for 319 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: Catherine the Great to seize the throne in a coup. 320 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: And whether or not Saint Germain was involved in that 321 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: coup is actually a matter of some debate. There are 322 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: people that will directly trace it to him and say 323 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 1: that he, you know, as part of his greater mystical being, 324 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: has catalyzed many important world events, this being one of them, 325 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: and others are like, no, he just happened to be there. 326 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: After leaving Russia, he stayed out of high profile circles. 327 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: There were fightings of him in various places, but the 328 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: official accounts of where he was or somewhere between between 329 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: sparse and non existent. And then almost a decade later, 330 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: Uh he turned up in Bavaria in seventeen seventy four, 331 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: and he was at this point traveling under the name 332 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: of Zarogi and feigning to be older than he had 333 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: previously said he was, although he eventually claimed to be 334 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: the son of Prince Roquizie. When he was caught in 335 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: this deception, it seemed like he had maybe stolen someone's identity. Uh. 336 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: And then someone figured out that that could not be 337 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: the case, and he said, no, no, no, I'm an 338 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: exiled I'm a prince on the run. In seventeen seventy six, 339 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: he was peddling his chemistry wears in Germany, trying once 340 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: again to get a government contract, and in spite of 341 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: getting some positive interest for his non mystical wears, he 342 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: blew the deal once again. He started talking about all 343 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: of his alchemy skills and how amazing he was, and 344 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: that soured the negotiations. Another reason that sandra Man lost 345 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: the deal was contextual suspicion. He was not the only 346 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: person in Europe claiming to be an alchemist and in 347 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: nobles had been duped and in Germany only shortly before 348 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: he came on the scene, that there was just a 349 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: general reluctance to get involved in this kind of business. Yeah, 350 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: there there had been other mystical people trapsing around getting 351 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: money out of people, so naturally, you know, it was 352 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: kind of a we just got burned by this. You 353 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: might you might be real. I don't know. But while 354 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: he was in Germany, the Count of Sangrement made a 355 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: really important friend, and that was Prince Karl of hes Kassel, 356 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: Governor of Schleiswig Holstein, and Prince Carl took in this 357 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: wandering mystic, and he set him up with a lab 358 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: for performing his chemistry and al chemical experiments, and you know, 359 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: lodging set him up with the little House. He has 360 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: been associated with the Rosicrucians, the Society of Asiatic Brothers, 361 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: the Knights of Light, the Illuminati, the Order of the Templars, 362 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: and has even been named as a co founder of 363 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: the Freemasons. But being secret societies, we naturally don't know 364 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: a lot about what level of involvement he may have had, 365 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: if any. Yeah, and some uh, you know, some texts saying, 366 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, we want to disassociate from him. We just 367 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: don't know. But what we do know is that he 368 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 1: spent several years in Schleswig at this point with Prince Karl, 369 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: and it's here that he's reported to have met his end. 370 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: He died on February eighty four after catching pneumonia. The 371 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: Count is said to have told Prince Carl that he 372 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: left a note for him and his personal effects to 373 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: be opened in the event of his death, but no 374 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: such note was ever actually found. Yeah, and Carl wasn't 375 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: there when he died. He was away in his personal 376 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: physician uh witnessed the death, but some when Carl came back, 377 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: he was expecting a note and got none. Well, before 378 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: we go on to kind of the postmortem legend, do 379 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: you want to take another moment for an ad break, 380 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: and let's get back to our story. So, at this 381 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: point in time in our story, the Count Sangerement is deceased. 382 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: H And as we said at the top of the podcast, 383 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: sussing out how much his story and his legend regarding 384 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: his metaphysical life is based in any sort of reality 385 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: is difficult. At the very best, he may have been 386 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: nothing more than a compulsive liar, spinning up tale after 387 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: tale to cover his humble or shameful past or to 388 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: work his way into high society. He was definitely well educated, 389 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: able to speak many languages, able to hold his own 390 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: in conversation with the highest rungs of society. He was 391 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: definitely skilled as a musician and a composer, and a 392 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: successful chemist. And adding to the mythos surrounding the Count 393 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: is also a little problem of names and conflation. First, 394 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: the Count of Sangrement as we said meant by went 395 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: by many aliases during his lifetime. And second, there were 396 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: Salon comedians in France doing sagrement parodies. Uh, and it's 397 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: entirely likely that some of the boasts that they made 398 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: in jest eventually kind of made their way into the 399 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: legend and kind of got confused over what was reality 400 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: and it was comedy, uh, because he was I mean, 401 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: as much as many people were really blown away by 402 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: him and thought he was amazing, there were also people 403 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: that were like, you, guys, he's a charlatan. Yeah, and 404 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: he became a joke to many people. Yeah. Well, when 405 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: when you gave me this this outline and I was 406 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: reading through it for the first time, I was thinking, 407 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: this sounds a whole lot like Casanova without the sex part, 408 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: which I know, which makes it really funny, because Casanova 409 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: just added to the confusion. Not only would he sometimes 410 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: impersonate the Count as a joke, his autobiography includes this 411 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: description of the man that's completely counter to every other 412 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: description of him by anyone else. Yeah, and it's believed 413 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: that that description it like talks about him wearing these long, 414 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: plain robes and stuff, just things that had nothing to 415 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: do with him. Uh. And it's believed that that was 416 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: added by an editor, or that there was somewhere some 417 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 1: sort of translation or trans But this is believed to 418 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: have been added by an editor or somehow like lost 419 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: a little bit in translation on the text, or maybe 420 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: Casanova did it on purpose. Isn't also possible? Uh. The 421 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: sort of ironic comparison there is that, unlike Cassanova, the 422 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: Count of Sentiment was not associated with sex at all. 423 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: Really he had He's often described as living a chaste life, 424 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: so but interesting counterpoints to one another. He had this 425 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: weird con artist globe trotter Casva. All we can get 426 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: the two of them and the Baron of Arizona together, 427 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: I think we would have a really spectacular historical meet 428 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: and greet. Uh. And there have also been other people 429 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: with the same title in history uh and sometimes their 430 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: stories have been accidentally mingled with this Count of Sagerement. 431 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: So his legend has gotten really nebulous and there aren't 432 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: any hard edges to it. It just kind of grows 433 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: and ebbs and flows. And there are historians who believe 434 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: that he really was a missing son of a of 435 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: Transylvanian royalty and that there was some kind of secret 436 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: arrangement or signal that validated this with other royals, which 437 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: explained his ability to just mix so easily with all 438 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: the courts of Europe. Yeah. Most uh, non noble born 439 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: people couldn't just stroll into like the court of France 440 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: and end up being BFFs with the king. But he 441 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: managed it no problem. And he you know, had contacts 442 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: all over the place. But uh, to make the historical 443 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: record and the story of counts sentiment even trickier, there 444 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: have also been plenty of people willing to assert that 445 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: he lives on and they kind of want to believe 446 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: and that kind of you know, get fished into building 447 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: a mythos. He's not a time lord. No, although there 448 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: are people that have suspected that he was a time traveler. 449 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: I mean there are people that believe. I'm just gonna 450 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: go on the record and saying that that I do not. 451 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: And he was also allegedly sided at a Masonic meeting 452 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: the year after his death, and that was just the 453 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: beginning of all these post mortem appearances. Yeah. Some will 454 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: even claim that he was actually once Sir Francis Bacon 455 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: and that he was either rejuvenated in some way, or 456 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: he was reincarnated as the Count. Plenty of people throughout 457 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: the years have been really happy to use the nebulous 458 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: details of his life to kind of fill in missing 459 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle for their own gain. So he's 460 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: he's wound up in all kinds of occult books and 461 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: and crackpot theories. Yeah, and sometimes you know, he's cited 462 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: as having said things that he never said, but because 463 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 1: there's such a weird series of gaps in his record, 464 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: will be like, oh no, this wasn't that time when 465 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: there isn't a lot, but I know I have the texts. Uh. 466 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: And there have even been people who have become convinced 467 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: that they actually are the Count reincarnated, or that they're 468 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: channeling the deceased mystic. One of the quotes that usually 469 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: comes up in relation to his great standing is Voltaire's 470 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: line and a letter to Frederick the Great, in which 471 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: he calls the Count quote a man who knows everything 472 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: and who never died. Yeah, this gets brought up all 473 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: the time. People are like, no, this is the man 474 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: that Voltaire said this about. Okay, that sounds really good, 475 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: but it ignores the source. Because Voltaire was known for 476 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: his sarcasm, and it ignores the context because in this 477 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: same series of correspondence between uh Voltaire and Frederick the Great, 478 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: Frederick refers to the count as on conte Perrier, which 479 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: translates literally to a story for laughing. He's calling him 480 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: a joke, Like these two are basically kind of having 481 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: a gossipy, what a train wreck discussion about this guy. 482 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: And so it's kind of quoted in a way that 483 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: I'm confident Voltaire never intended. And of course there are 484 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: people who think that he himself was just deluded and 485 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: believed all of these legends about himself that had been 486 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: circulating while he was alive. Yeah, I mean we in 487 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: the first thing that we read about him, uh, in 488 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: the Horses letters, they say that he's mad. I mean, 489 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: lots of will describe him as a madman. So I 490 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: think there's you know, some credence to that. Uh. One 491 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: interesting note that will kind of conclude with is that 492 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: while sagrem uh was, you know, he's described sometimes as boastful, 493 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: but it seems like he was really pretty careful in 494 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: his conversations with people to never state outright any of 495 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: these extraordinary claims that are often attributed to him. He 496 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: would drop hints. He was like a pro at conversation manipulation, 497 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: and he would never say he had an elixir of youth, 498 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: but he would just tell people he was very old, 499 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: and then mentioned that he had this lab and that 500 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: he worked on things, and then he would direct the 501 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: conversation elsewhere, and people be like, oh, what is he hiding? 502 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: He he does have the elixir of life. He kind 503 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: of was really good at seating his own reputation, it seems, 504 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: which to me suggests the level of savvy that is 505 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,479 Speaker 1: beyond what a deluded madman would be able to come 506 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: up with. But we'll never know for sure, and that's 507 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: just my conjecture on it. So that is the Count 508 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: of Sagrement. And there are so many stories of him 509 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: in addition to those that we've relayed. Uh, you could 510 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: really lose many many days combing the internet for various 511 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: If you do a search on him, you'll get a 512 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: nice combo of historical reference and also believers, people that 513 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: really want to believe that he's out there somewhere. Yeah. Uh, 514 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: but that story of the Count. Do you have a 515 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: story of some listener mail? I do? Uh? And this 516 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: particular piece of mail comes from our listener U Lara 517 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: and it is in reference to footbinding, and she talks 518 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: about it uh in relation to an event in her 519 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: own grandmother's life. She says, I wanted to write in 520 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: response to the recent show about footbinding. I was struck 521 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: by similarities between the experiences of the older Chinese women 522 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: and my German men Andite grandmother. I've attached a photo 523 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: of my grandmother and grandfather on their wedding day, which 524 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: is lovely. UH. For the nineteen sixty Mennonites wore quote 525 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: Plaine dress cape dresses for women, and she explains that 526 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: a cape dress was a special dress with an extra 527 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: piece of cloth in the front to cover up the 528 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 1: breasts and a covering which was a lace head covering 529 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: with bonnet strings. And men wore plain coats, usually a 530 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: dark colored coat with a high neck. Dress was very 531 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: much part of church membership, and the bishops spent a 532 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: lot of time regulating dress, and women like my grandmother 533 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time figuring out subversive ways to 534 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: wear their coverings, like letting the strings hang down their 535 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: back rather than putting them in the front, which was 536 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: considered especially daring for some reason. Lara does not know 537 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: why uh, and she says, I'm not really trying to 538 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: draw a comparison between the permanently damaging tradition of footbinding 539 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: and Mennonite Plaine dress. But I think that the older 540 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: Chinese women's ambiguous feeling about the changing traditions was very 541 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: similar to my grandmother's mixed feelings about choosing to stop 542 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: wearing plain clothes in the nineteen sixties, when other women 543 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: burn their bras. Side note from Tracy and I there's 544 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: some debate about whether or not that actually happened. Most 545 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: people say it did not. There was more of a 546 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: freedom trash can where bras went, but just the same 547 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: we wanted to acknowledge that as not always being an 548 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: accurate depiction of what was going on. Some men and 549 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: nite women, according to this letter of Lara's, Uh, burned 550 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: their coverings. My grandmother didn't burn her covering, but she 551 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: did stop wearing it. She once returned to her home church, 552 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: which was very conservative, and on Sunday morning, the preacher 553 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: preached a sermon especially about her and her lack of 554 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: traditional dress. Uh. That's a really, you know, fascinating insight. 555 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's easy, I think when you're kind 556 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: of reading through it to go of course, they were 557 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: this was their standard, and then they were told it 558 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: wasn't the standard, and that's a difficult mental break. But 559 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of a nice comparison to explain, like this 560 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: is another person who went through sort of a similar thing. 561 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: As she says, it's not the same as a disfiguring, 562 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: you know, permanent thing, but it's like it gets you 563 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: question her grandmother questioned this her whole life, but whether 564 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: that was the right thing, and whether dropping that tradition, 565 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: you know, was in some way a bad choice. So 566 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: it's just an interesting cultural insight. If you would like 567 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: to write to us and share any interesting cultural insights 568 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: or parallels to things we've talked about, or anything else 569 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: you would like to chat about, you can write us 570 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. We're also on 571 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: Facebook dot com slash missed in History, on Twitter at 572 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: misst in history, at misst in history dot tumbler dot com, 573 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: and at pinterest dot com slash missed in History. You 574 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: can also visit us on our website, which I know 575 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: this address is going to be a shocker, but it's 576 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: missed in History dot com. Uh. 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