1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm act from Charmil Chike Egypt Many Office. 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: How are you going to be remembered? So today I'd 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: like to share with you how the United States is 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: media climate crisis allergency. You wish to be remembered as 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: one who did a lot of nashing while in PA 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: by signed law our proposal for the biggest, most important 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: climate goal with history of our country, the flesh of adoption. 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: No government in the world has enough money to be 9 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: able to effect this transition at the speed we need 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: without bringing the private sector to the table and improve 11 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: what us in my ask for by the significant amount 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: of three hundred and sixty eight billion dollars. We need 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: trillions of dollars in the time to force action is 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: right now right here as the African COP. It's been 15 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: a busy first week at COP twenty seven. Loss and 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Damage made it onto the agenda. World leaders came and 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: spoke in their dozens and everyone the Zero team included 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: is running a little bit shot on sleep. But we're 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: only halfway. Next week the negotiations will gather pace and 20 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: we will get a clearer idea of what the outcome 21 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: will be at the end of these two frenetic weeks. 22 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: Later in the show, we'll be hearing from Patricia Espinoza, 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: who until this year headed the United Nations Framework Convention 24 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: on Climate Change, the body that organizes COP meetings. We'll 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: hear what goes on behind the scenes to get each 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: of the two hundred odd member states to agree on 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: a deal. But first I'm joined by Bloomberg's West Africa 28 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: bureau chief, Yinka Ibukum. Welcome to Zero. Thanks that shut Now. 29 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: Every time I've seen you this week, you seem to 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: have interviewed someone really interesting. It seems like you are 31 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: the one who's got all the secret climate party invites. Yeah, 32 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: I mean that wasn't intentional. I just really came with 33 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: an open mind and had lots of conversations and some 34 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: of those conversations spelled into COP after parties. Oh that's beautiful. 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: Now tell me who are the people that you talked 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: to and what's been like for you because it's your 37 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: first one. Yeah. So COP has been very enlightening, also 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: very sobering in some ways. But I think at the 39 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: end of the day, it's going to help us make 40 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: our reporting more focused on climate as we go back, 41 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: because what I've realized from copies that really this conversation 42 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: is not niche. It penetrates and insultrates every single area 43 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: of life. So before now thinking of the climate coverage 44 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: in terms of what happens to the oceans, what happens 45 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: to the forests, because my part of the world has 46 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: big forest area, But now I'm thinking of how we live, 47 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: how we retrofit buildings, how we cook with clean fuels, 48 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: how we power our cars, how we power our motorbikes, 49 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 1: moto taxis. So it's really in every area of life. 50 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: And do you think Africa was represented as it should 51 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: be at a corp that is happening in Africa? And 52 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: were the issues of inequity and financing met with solutions? 53 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: Africa showed up prominently. There was an Africa Day, there 54 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: were Africa events. The African Union was well represented by 55 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: its president who was also the president of Senegal, President Marquisale, 56 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: And there was a message to Africa by most of 57 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: the world leaders really focusing from an Africa perspective. The 58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: United Nations Secretary General gave a message to Africa. The 59 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: International Monetary Fund Managing Director gave her message to Africa 60 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: as well. So I do feel that Africa had its place. 61 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: The issue of inequity is one that pervades actually all 62 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: parts whenever you speak about Africa. So financial inequity in 63 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: terms of the interest rates as which African countries borrow, 64 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: but also climate inequity because richer nations have already industrialized 65 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: and polluted, and developing nations, particularly Africa, which accounts for 66 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: just four percent, if not less, of global emissions, are 67 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: now being told that they can't exploit fossil fuel or 68 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: contribute to pollution, which obviously is important, but there's also 69 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: this sense that those that have come ahead of them 70 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: have already done it and now they're not able to 71 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: do the same. Yeah, it might seem a little repetitive, 72 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: but the main question is who will pay for the 73 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: green transition in Africa. Last year, even though Africa Union 74 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: as a whole has seven percent of the global economy, 75 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: it only got one percent of table energy investment according 76 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: to figures from Bloombergen e F. And there has to 77 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: be a way to address that iniquity. Yes, and that's 78 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you've talked about renewable energy projects, but even 79 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: when you look at the cup and credit market, Africa 80 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: coups for fifteen percent of the trading volume. So there's 81 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: just a need to unlock the finance. And there's been 82 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: some solutions that have been brought. I mean last year, 83 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, did an injection of 84 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty billion dollars into the world economy, 85 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: and only thirty three billion of that amount went to Africa. 86 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: That's just what France and Italy god. And that's less 87 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: than half of what the US god. And at that 88 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: point there was a move Richard nations were encouraged to 89 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: actually on land or donate their their SDRs, their special 90 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: drawing rights to developing nations, but that's not happened, and 91 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: so these equities are growing. And you spoke with Maki 92 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: sal the President of Senegal, who said that the Africa Union, 93 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: which he chairs at the moment, is supposed to get 94 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: a seat at the G twenty. Do you think getting 95 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: that seat will help address some of these inequities. That's 96 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: the hope, But you know, these inequities are very enshrined 97 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: in the world. It's a system that has permitted for 98 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: a very long time. And even the Miyamotli of Barbados 99 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: said that the world today looks too much like what 100 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: it used to look like in an imperialistic system. This 101 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: world looks still too much like it did when it 102 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 1: was part of an imperialistic empire. So yeah, that's definitely 103 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: the hope that they will be able to have a 104 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: bigger voice on a table, but it's going to be 105 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: a long journey to get there. The global North bars 106 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: between interest rates of between one to four percent, the 107 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: global South of fourteen percent, and then we wonder why 108 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: the just energy partnerships are not working. Talking of world leaders, 109 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: actually you were in the room when President Joe Biden 110 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: spoke on Friday fresh off fo S one or what 111 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: were the main highlights of his speech? Well, luckily podcast 112 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: listeners got a preview of what his speech was going 113 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: to be because we had his National Climate Advisor Alizadi 114 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: on the episode on Friday in the morning. And I 115 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: suppose the new thing that he talked about was giving 116 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: five hundred million dollars alongside the European Union to Egypt 117 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: to build more renewable energy. There was also for US 118 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: president speeches a very unusual moment. As I stand here 119 00:07:53,760 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: before you, we've taken enormous strives to achieve that but 120 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: I don't stand here alone. Midway through his speech, there 121 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: were shouts and noises, and climate activists got up on 122 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: the table and unfiled a message for the president. He 123 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: didn't seem particularly perturbed. He paused for a moment and 124 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: just kept going with his speech. Security came very quickly 125 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and took the protesters down so quickly that the media 126 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: that was sitting far behind couldn't really see what the 127 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: message was. But these things tend to not happen, especially 128 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: don't tend to happen in a country where protests have 129 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: been so limited. Yeah, it's ironic that they even got 130 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: in there in a context where there's been so little 131 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: protest space at COP twenty seven. Absolutely. I mean there 132 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: have been sporadic protests within the blue zone, which is 133 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: controlled by the UNF Triple C that organizes the meeting, 134 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: but nobody can really protest there because it's very heavily 135 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: surrounded by police, and you can't be bringing whatever signs 136 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: you would like. Everything has to go through security and 137 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: has to be approved. The one place where I really 138 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: heard the voice of activists loudly was at the Bloomberg 139 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: event that we had on Thursday, actually, where young activists 140 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: spoke about one of the lack of protests, but also 141 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: they were much more clear headed than a lot of 142 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: the policymakers that we've heard so far about really the 143 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: urgency of saving the planet. And one of the person 144 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: who also stands out for me was Hindu Ibrahim, who 145 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: is an indigenous leader from Chad and a COP veteran, 146 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: and she had a lot of interesting things to say, 147 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: but also she said that indigenous voices were not being 148 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: listened to, and I thought that that was really interesting 149 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: to me. I mean, just walking the pavilions, you would 150 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: see people who look like indigenous people with the colorful dress, 151 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: and people take pictures of the man. You always see 152 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: people getting taken pictures of But the question is that 153 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: they're being heard and was their contribution. Well INGA thanks 154 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: for coming on the podcast. I know you're off back home, 155 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: so safe travels. Thanks so much, it's been a pleasure 156 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: speaking with you. Acshal. After the break, how do you 157 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: get a deal done at a climate conference with two 158 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: hundred nations attending? Former unf TRIPALC executive secretary Patricia Espinosa 159 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: gives us the inside track. Joining me now is Patricia Espinosa, 160 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: who was the head of the UNF TRIPALCY between twenty 161 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: sixteen and twenty twenty two. The UNF TRIPALC is the 162 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: main organizing body of the annual climate conferences. Patricia, welcome 163 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you, Thank you for inviting me. 164 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: You were the executive Secretary of the UNF PPULC for 165 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: the last six years. Now you've passed on the baton 166 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: to Simon Steele, but let's just start there. Paris Agreement 167 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: was a landmark agreement when it came to climate change. 168 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: For the first time countries agreed on very clear targets 169 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: that they had to meet. But agreements, voluntary as they are, 170 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: are worth nothing if they can't be implemented, and you, 171 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: in your tenure had to make sure that implementation of 172 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: the many, many promises in there could happen. If you 173 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: look back, what do you think you succeeded on and 174 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: where did you fail? Well, first of all, yes, I 175 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: want to fully conquer with you and underline the fact 176 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: that the Paris Agreement is really one of the most 177 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: important achievements of multilateralism in the history of the United Nations. Now, 178 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: as you say, also yes, this wonderful agreement is nothing 179 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: if we don't implement it. The agreement was adopted in 180 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: Paris in twenty fifteen. I came to the Secretariat in 181 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, just after the agreement had been adopted. Imagine, 182 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: the Secretariat and parties had spent twenty five years discussing 183 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: what an agreement like that would look like, and so 184 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: when I came, the big issue was and now what 185 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: are we going to do? What is next? The first 186 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: point in trying to address implementation was to work on 187 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: the guidelines for implementation, because the Paris Agreement provides a 188 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: very broad general framework. But then we needed the tools. 189 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: While Paris, for example, says that transparency is key for 190 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: the future of climate change, there was no clarity on 191 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: how we would be achieving that transparency. Yeah, another example 192 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: would be Paris never says NED zero by twenty fifty. 193 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: Those are not words that exist in the Paris Agreement. 194 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: And yet if you have a one point five degrees 195 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: celsius goal, somebody had to do the work to translate 196 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: that into an emission target. And now we have NED 197 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: zero by twenty fifty, correct, correct. So out of Paris 198 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: we managed to get Also the IPCC report on one 199 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: point five. That then has allowed us to be much 200 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: clearer about the specific goals that we will need to 201 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,080 Speaker 1: achieve in the coming years, including, by the way, by 202 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: twenty thirty forty five percent reduction of emissions, which is 203 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: only eight years from now. So I think the one 204 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: success was that we did manage to finalize in those 205 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: six years the implementation rules for the Paris Agreement. So 206 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: now we can go into full implementation. And what are 207 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: the lessons that you learned during your time leading this effort, 208 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: running cop meetings, bringing together two hundred countries getting an 209 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: agreement in Glasgow that you would like to pass on 210 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: to Simon Steele, who is in your position. Now, let 211 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: me go back also to the point that you were 212 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: asking before about what would be the shortcomings that I 213 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: would see. I would probably refer to them to the 214 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: pace in which we have made a progress. Yes, progress 215 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: is made. There is no nobody except for the US, 216 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: for a short period of time, has gone back and 217 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: said we don't want to be part of this anymore. However, 218 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: it took six years until we finalize the operating rules 219 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: for the Paris Agreement. That's too long. That's too long. 220 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: We don't have the luxury of time, and to my successor, 221 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: I would say that, you know, while we do not 222 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: have the time anymore, there needs to be an acceleration 223 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: of the way we work in that process. Well, it's 224 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: nice of you to take that as a shortcoming or 225 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: a failure, but the reality is it's a global problem. 226 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: There isn't a global government. You do not have the 227 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: power to force governments to do what they need to 228 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: be doing right. You can only bring them together and 229 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: make them talk. So it is a shortcoming, but it 230 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: is not all on you. Yes, I know, but it's 231 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: important to take responsibility. Now you've been on the ground, 232 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: you are, I'm sure clued in to the negotiations that 233 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: are happening around loss and damage. What do you think 234 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: we should be looking out for towards the end of 235 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: this cop give us some reporters notes. No, So let 236 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: me let me say that I want to be really 237 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: very very respectful of the role of Simon and you 238 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: know also of the old negotiators. So I want to 239 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: what I would share with you is what I hope, 240 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: I personally hope that we should be achieving here. If 241 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: we look at the scenario, the overall scenario in which 242 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: this conference is taking place, with so many challenges, and 243 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: with the fact that attention by world leaders has been 244 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: directed to other priorities. I think the fact that now 245 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: we have an agenda item on a loss and damage 246 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: is good news. Is a step forward, but a very 247 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: small step forward, right, or a big step forward, but 248 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: we still have a very long way to go, however 249 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: you want to look at it. I think that it 250 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: would be positive first if we could manage to have 251 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 1: in this session the start of a very respectful, open 252 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: and well informed conversation about loss and damage. What do 253 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: we really understand about loss and damage? Right? All of 254 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: that could be done with a forward looking approach, so 255 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: that we look towards what is coming, the disasters that 256 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: we know are going to becoming, the losses and damages 257 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: that will be coming, in order to try to avoid 258 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: this more confrontational scenario where we would be looking at 259 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: history and what are the responsibilities of the different actors. 260 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: It's not wanting to ignore that there are some that 261 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: are responsible and some that are more responsible than others. 262 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: That's very clear to me. But I think at this 263 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: point in time, with the urgency of the situation, we 264 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: need to focus on the lutions. One of the best 265 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: things about coming to cop meetings is just the sheer 266 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: number of people from different places, with different languages, wearing 267 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: their traditional clothes, walking around talking about trying to help 268 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: world tackle this problem. But there's a lot that goes 269 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: into making it happen. You've been working on that in 270 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: your role at the UNF tripleC. Give us some behind 271 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: the scenes that people don't get to see the good 272 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: and the bad of making such an event happen every year. Well, yeah, 273 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: it's a very unique process as well. By the way, 274 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: I would divide it into two big areas of work, right, 275 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: one has to do with the logistics and the organization 276 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: and bringing people to their place. The other has to 277 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: do with the negotiations. Of course. Now on the logistics side, 278 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: it's a big enterprise. Um. It involves the negotiation of 279 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: an agreement that we call the host country agreement, where 280 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: the responsibilities and and also the rights of the different 281 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: actors are defined, mainly of the host country and the secretariat. 282 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: What is the secretariat going to be providing, what is 283 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: the host country going to provide? And here also in 284 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: terms for example of security, the Department of Safety and 285 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: Security from the UN in New York is also involved. 286 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: Why because the Secretariat doesn't have a big enough group 287 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: of security officers. And actually, you know, this is one 288 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: of the things that I could comment is in order 289 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: to put together the team, the security officials that come here, 290 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: people from different UN venues are brought together, right. And 291 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: it's more than a hundred world leaders coming in one place, 292 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: which yes, I don't know if it happens apart from 293 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: anything like the UN General Assembly, which is always in 294 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: one place in New York, correct, correct, And this conference 295 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: has become the biggest conference that is held every year, 296 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: even the bigger than the UN General Assembly. Yes, yes, 297 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: because you know, the General Assembly doesn't have the action zone, 298 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: doesn't have this inclusive space for all the different actors 299 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: to come together. So it is it is bigger than 300 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: the General Assembly, not in the number of heads of 301 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: state and government, but certainly in the number of participants. 302 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: And I would say also the diversity of participants, right, yes, yes, 303 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: And then it is beautiful the see of humanity. Correct, correct, 304 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: I also enjoy it. I also enjoy it. And you know, 305 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: I think that the challenges include in the everyday work, 306 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: you know, include from the designing of the different spaces 307 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: to also trying to engage with a host country in 308 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: order to make sure that hotels are available, that transportation 309 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: is available, that at the airport people are taking care 310 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: of that. You know, it's every single little and big 311 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: detail needs to be addressed. Now, why is it that 312 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: some COUP meetings end up in countries that are not 313 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: really climate forward? We're sitting in Egypt, which we can't 314 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: really count as a climate forward country. We're going to 315 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: the UAE next year again and oil producing nation. Why 316 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 1: is it that these are the host of the cup meetings? Well, 317 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: as you may know that the venue of the conference 318 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: is rotating in the different regional groups. One of the 319 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: objectives of that rule is to give every every region 320 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: in the world the opportunity to be hosts and also 321 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: in line with the principle of quality within the United Nations, 322 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: every country has the right to come forward and present 323 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: a candidacy for hosting the conference and then it is 324 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: normally up to the regional group to decide on what 325 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: who will be the host for the region. And this 326 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: is what has happened in this case. It was you know, 327 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: a discussion within the African group. In the case of 328 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: the UAE. It was also a decision by the Asian Group. 329 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: It is then a coincidence somehow that we are into 330 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: Arab countries too, countries that are actually quite close. On 331 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: the other hand, I would say that it is important 332 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: also that we do respect the principle of equality between 333 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: all countries. I understand what you are saying as these 334 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: countries not being very ambitious in terms of climate change. 335 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: But part of the objective is that this possibility of 336 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: hosting a conference will boost the climate agenda also nationally. 337 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: So the process seeks to be a very constructive and 338 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: forward looking process. Now I can tell you from my 339 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: experience as a COP president in twenty ten in Mexico, 340 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: it was absolutely critical that we hosted the COP. The 341 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: members of parliament at that time were very interested and 342 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: curious to participate, and that made it possible in a 343 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: few months time to approve the Climate change Law. That's 344 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: very interesting. We were also told by Sali Mulhak who 345 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: the professor at the Independent University in Bangladesh, that not 346 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: many countries put their names forward for hosting. Is that true? 347 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: It is true. It is a huge endeavor. You know, 348 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: it's not easy for any country to be able to host. 349 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: We had a very unique experience you may remember in 350 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen when we had COPED twenty three, presided over 351 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: by Fiji but held in bond. Why because Fiji literally 352 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: cannot host a conference like this in their own country. 353 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: There were some meetings that were held in Fiji, of course, 354 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: but it's not only about the physical place but also 355 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: giving the responsibility to countries from all regions, in all 356 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: different capacities. Do you think there could be any progress 357 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: made on climate change without having COP meetings? I don't. 358 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think you need to have 359 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: a platform where countries and now increasingly also entities from 360 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: private and public sector come together joint effort. Otherwise we 361 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: would have, you know, disperse efforts everywhere. This is a 362 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: global problem. It cannot be addressed effectively by one or 363 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: two or even one region. Climate change doesn't recognize borders, 364 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: political realities. Climate change is there and we have to 365 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: work together, and this is the platform to do that. 366 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: And some of the most memorable moments that come out 367 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: of COP meetings are emotional moments. You see people in tears, 368 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: you see people talking in ways that you won't be 369 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: able to virtually and that I do eye contact is 370 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: very important. Absolutely, it's you know, you are absolutely right. 371 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: You get emotional because this is really the sense of 372 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: working around a problem that represents the biggest threat to humanity, 373 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: has a very very special way. It's not just any job. Well, 374 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: thank you for giving us an insight into these amazing 375 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: meetings that happen every year, and thank you for the 376 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: work you do. Thank you, thank you very much, Thanks 377 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: for the opportunity. Thanks so much for listening to Zero. 378 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate, review and subscribe, 379 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: Tell a friend, or tell a climate activist. If you've 380 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: got a suggestion for a guest or topic or something 381 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: you just want us to look into, get in touch 382 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 1: at Zero pod at Bloomberg dot net. Also, until November eighteenth, 383 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Green paywall is down. Head to Bloomberg dot 384 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: com slash green to read all our latest coverage and 385 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: everything in the archives for absolutely free. Zero's producer is 386 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine driscoll. Our theme 387 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: music is composed by wonder Lee. Special thanks to Kira Binzim, 388 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: Laura Milan and Stacy Wong. I'm Kshatrati back next week 389 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: with more from COP twenty seven