WEBVTT - Bloomberg Law: A Discussion on Mueller Investigation (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>In an interview this week with The New York Times,

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<v Speaker 1>President Trump made some remarkably pointed remarks, including this one

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<v Speaker 1>about Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the Russia investigation. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's very unfair to the president. How do you

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<v Speaker 1>take a job and then refuse yourself. If he would

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<v Speaker 1>have refused himself before the job, I would have said, thanks, Jeff,

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<v Speaker 1>But I can't. You know, I'm not gonna thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>It's extremely unfair, and that's a mild word to the president.

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<v Speaker 1>So he recuses himself. I then end up with a

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<v Speaker 1>second man, who's a deputy President. Trump also claimed that

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<v Speaker 1>Special Counsel Robert Mueller, who's conducting the investigation, has conflicts

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<v Speaker 1>of interest and should not investigate President Trump's personal finances,

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<v Speaker 1>although Bloomberg News reported yesterday that Mueller's office has already

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<v Speaker 1>expanded its investigation into Trump business transactions, and The Washington

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<v Speaker 1>Post reported last night the Trump lawyers and staffers are

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<v Speaker 1>investigating the investigators working in Mueller's office and that the

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<v Speaker 1>president may be examining his power to pardon those under investigation. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that's an awful lot going on, but here to talk

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<v Speaker 1>with us about what this is likely to mean for

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<v Speaker 1>the investigation into Russian colusion. Are two attorneys with exceptional

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<v Speaker 1>records of public service uh AND who have looked at

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<v Speaker 1>elected officials over the years. Peter Zeidenberg, a partner at

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<v Speaker 1>Aaron Fox who in many years at the Justice Department

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<v Speaker 1>UH included time at in the public Integrity section. And

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<v Speaker 1>Richard ben venist Day, a partner at brayermnt LP who

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<v Speaker 1>is one of the lead prosecutors on the Watergate Special

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecution Task Force. Richard, the president is said a lot

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<v Speaker 1>in this interview about UM different officials who the FBI

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<v Speaker 1>that the thinks the FBI Report Director reports directly to

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<v Speaker 1>the president, talked about his ability to get rid of

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<v Speaker 1>the investigation entirely made the comments I mentioned earlier and

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<v Speaker 1>the one we played. What he's got this investigation going on?

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<v Speaker 1>What can you discern in terms of what the president

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<v Speaker 1>and strategy is here? I don't see that the president

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<v Speaker 1>has any strategy. He's created chaos throughout at least the

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Department UH and has repeatedly made contradictory statements UH

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<v Speaker 1>and statements that go on the will beyond the pale

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<v Speaker 1>in terms of being the subject of an investigation which

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<v Speaker 1>by this time, no doubt President Trump is. And so

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<v Speaker 1>I think you start with the notion that h he

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<v Speaker 1>has been stealing like a tea kettle and may reach

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<v Speaker 1>the boil at any moment, provoking a constitutional crisis. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>he cannot abide the situation he finds himself in with

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<v Speaker 1>Sessions quite properly recusing and Trump seething at sessions decision

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<v Speaker 1>that put in Starring in the position as acting Attorney General,

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<v Speaker 1>a man wide widely praised on both sides of the aisle,

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<v Speaker 1>and confirmed I think by a vote of two um.

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<v Speaker 1>So he's Trump's pick. And then he promptly appoints Bob

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller as UH special counsel. Now, Bob Muller has bipartisans support,

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<v Speaker 1>and rightly so, because he is an extraordinary pick to

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<v Speaker 1>leave the investigation. He is a man of unmatched integrity,

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<v Speaker 1>great experience as a former federal prosecutor and the former

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<v Speaker 1>FBI director, and there's no one who could suggest that

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<v Speaker 1>he lacks the integrity to conduct the investigation. Peter, let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk a little bit about President Trump being very upset

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<v Speaker 1>about his personal finances being looked into. Mueller is empowered

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<v Speaker 1>to look at any matters arising from his investigation. Everyone

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<v Speaker 1>who knows these kinds of investigations, No, you follow the money?

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<v Speaker 1>Is he is following the money within his purview? Yeah? Absolutely, Um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you're, you're, any investigation is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>looking at these financial relationships, um, with Russians and with

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<v Speaker 1>Russia and trying to understand um for one thing, motive um,

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<v Speaker 1>which could explain the relationships and the behavior, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the frankly bizarre behavior um of the president in regards

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<v Speaker 1>to Russia and why he may have colluded, which is

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<v Speaker 1>part of the investigation. So if there is indebtedness that

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<v Speaker 1>he has with Russia or Russians that these old arks

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<v Speaker 1>with business with loans, um, then it's absolutely fair game.

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<v Speaker 1>And in fact, he would be derelict if look at

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<v Speaker 1>it this way. Let's let's say he looked at it narrowly.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm only gonna look at the last sixteen months. President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's apparent unhappiness with the investigation into possible collusion with

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<v Speaker 1>Russia manifested itself this week in a number of statements

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<v Speaker 1>the President made, including assertions that the special investigator has

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<v Speaker 1>conflicts of interest and that it would cross a red

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<v Speaker 1>line if the investigation looks at his finances. We're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the investigation with two former government officials, Peter Zeidenberg

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<v Speaker 1>of Aaron Fox and Richard Benveniste of Mayor Brown. Peter,

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<v Speaker 1>the President does appear to be doing trying to do

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<v Speaker 1>something to affect at least perception of this investigation by

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<v Speaker 1>making all these comments. Is it likely to have any

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<v Speaker 1>impact on Special Counsel Robert Mueller? Not directly on Mueller

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<v Speaker 1>or his team. This is pure background noise to them,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're not gonna it's not gonna make one bit

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<v Speaker 1>of difference to them at all. They're not going to

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<v Speaker 1>be intimidated by it. They're not going to be particularly

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<v Speaker 1>bothered by it. But it's more of a political question, um,

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<v Speaker 1>because he's trying to stir up his base and to

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<v Speaker 1>get put out talking points for Fox News and for

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<v Speaker 1>you know, avid supporters of of the president to uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's it's really just a political gamp, but not

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<v Speaker 1>a legal one. And um, Richard, he's also been talking,

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<v Speaker 1>according to what Washington Post last night, he's been the

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<v Speaker 1>President has been asking about his partnering power and even

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<v Speaker 1>about partnering himself. Can a president pardon himself? It's not

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<v Speaker 1>been determined by the courts whether that's possible. Um. I

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<v Speaker 1>think the stronger argument is that it's not. If you

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<v Speaker 1>look at the history of the pardon power, and he

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<v Speaker 1>may be sending a message to those who have information

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<v Speaker 1>damaging to the president, um, that he has his power

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<v Speaker 1>and is prepared to use it. So they ought to

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<v Speaker 1>stay in line. Now he can pardon anyone other than himself. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>there there will be tremendous political consequences for him doing so,

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<v Speaker 1>because that would truncate the investigation certainly at this early point. Peter,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, when you when you look at these comments

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<v Speaker 1>the president has made, and the fact is thinking about pardons,

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<v Speaker 1>that they're investigating, the investigators who are investigating them, that

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<v Speaker 1>he is uh that you know, he said all these

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<v Speaker 1>things about who reports to who, and whether Sessions should

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<v Speaker 1>be attorney general. One wonders about, in the context of

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<v Speaker 1>the obstruction of justice investigation, what does the president seem

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<v Speaker 1>to think about? You know, what do these comments tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about the way the president thinks about his relationship

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<v Speaker 1>to other officials in the government. Well, I'll make the

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<v Speaker 1>same observations that others have made in the last day

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<v Speaker 1>or so, which is this is all of a piece

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<v Speaker 1>that shows that, you know, the president seems to think

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<v Speaker 1>that he treats the government like he's the CEO of

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<v Speaker 1>an organization and everyone reports to him and he's the

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<v Speaker 1>boss of everyone. UM. That's not the way d o J,

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<v Speaker 1>for instance, works. UM. The FBI director doesn't report directly

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<v Speaker 1>to the president, like he said, he reports to the

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<v Speaker 1>attorney general, actually the deputy attorney general. So there are

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<v Speaker 1>structures in place and UM and norms in place, and

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<v Speaker 1>the president has no understanding how any of that works.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's to put it charitably. UM. Just on the

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<v Speaker 1>point that Richard made about UM the pardon power of

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<v Speaker 1>parting one self, whether he could pardon himself, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that that is UM an issue that's really an away

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<v Speaker 1>academic because I don't think it's likely or or even

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<v Speaker 1>in the realm of possibility, that he would be indicted anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the light more much greater likelihood is that

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<v Speaker 1>he would be impeached, in which case partying himself would

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<v Speaker 1>only make it more likely he'd be impeached, not less likely. Richard,

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<v Speaker 1>you were Watergate prosecutor, and there has been some noise

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<v Speaker 1>that President Trump might try to fire the special counsel

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<v Speaker 1>as he fired Jim Comey. Would that parallel the seventy

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<v Speaker 1>three Saturday Night massacre? I think it would be even

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<v Speaker 1>worse on the circumstances where he's already used his executive

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<v Speaker 1>power to fire Jim Comey, who was investigating him and

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<v Speaker 1>other aspects. Um, He's also fired Tree Baha, the U

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<v Speaker 1>S Attorney for the Southern District of New York. So

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<v Speaker 1>you see a pattern of firing people who have the

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<v Speaker 1>power to do him harm, and they do him harm

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<v Speaker 1>only in connection with their legal authority to investigate longdoing

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<v Speaker 1>each of these steps makes Trump look more and more

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<v Speaker 1>guilty of something. And if, in fact, Uh he fires

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<v Speaker 1>Mueller or attempts to do so through the chain of

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<v Speaker 1>command that the Justice Department by firing people who refuse

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<v Speaker 1>to do so until he gets to one who will,

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<v Speaker 1>then he's created a constitutional crisis in this country. He

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<v Speaker 1>looks guilty as hell as Nixon did. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>when he fired Archibald cox Um, people who are on

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<v Speaker 1>the sidelines are under side did said to themselves, what

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<v Speaker 1>is he hiding to incur this kind of chaos upon

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<v Speaker 1>the country, Uh, Peter, In just about twenty seconds, do

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<v Speaker 1>you think that what the President said makes the case

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<v Speaker 1>easier for Muller to make, uh, you know, because of

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<v Speaker 1>an obstruction you know, he has made so many comments,

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<v Speaker 1>um like this to show state of mind in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of a possible obstruction case. You know, at this point,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's just guilding the lily. He's made it very

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<v Speaker 1>clear why he fired uh Comey and his interest in

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<v Speaker 1>firing Mueller. So he's just digging the hole deeper. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna have to leave it there. Are thanks to

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<v Speaker 1>Peter Zeidenberg of Aaron Fox and Richard Bandernisti of Mayor

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<v Speaker 1>Brown for being here. On Bloomberg Law. Coming up, we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna be talking about whether the Federal Trade Commission is

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<v Speaker 1>acting as aggressively under President Trump as it did under

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<v Speaker 1>President Obama. That's right ahead on Bloomberg Law. You're listening

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<v Speaker 1>to Bloomberg Radio. This is Bloomberg m