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Speaker 1: In an interview this week with The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: President Trump made some remarkably pointed remarks, including this one

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Speaker 1: about Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the Russia investigation. I

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Speaker 1: think it's very unfair to the president. How do you

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Speaker 1: take a job and then refuse yourself. If he would

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Speaker 1: have refused himself before the job, I would have said, thanks, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: But I can't. You know, I'm not gonna thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's extremely unfair, and that's a mild word to the president.

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Speaker 1: So he recuses himself. I then end up with a

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Speaker 1: second man, who's a deputy President. Trump also claimed that

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel Robert Mueller, who's conducting the investigation, has conflicts

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Speaker 1: of interest and should not investigate President Trump's personal finances,

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Speaker 1: although Bloomberg News reported yesterday that Mueller's office has already

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Speaker 1: expanded its investigation into Trump business transactions, and The Washington

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Speaker 1: Post reported last night the Trump lawyers and staffers are

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Speaker 1: investigating the investigators working in Mueller's office and that the

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Speaker 1: president may be examining his power to pardon those under investigation. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's an awful lot going on, but here to talk

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Speaker 1: with us about what this is likely to mean for

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Speaker 1: the investigation into Russian colusion. Are two attorneys with exceptional

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Speaker 1: records of public service uh AND who have looked at

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Speaker 1: elected officials over the years. Peter Zeidenberg, a partner at

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Speaker 1: Aaron Fox who in many years at the Justice Department

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Speaker 1: UH included time at in the public Integrity section. And

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Speaker 1: Richard ben venist Day, a partner at brayermnt LP who

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Speaker 1: is one of the lead prosecutors on the Watergate Special

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Speaker 1: Prosecution Task Force. Richard, the president is said a lot

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Speaker 1: in this interview about UM different officials who the FBI

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Speaker 1: that the thinks the FBI Report Director reports directly to

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Speaker 1: the president, talked about his ability to get rid of

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Speaker 1: the investigation entirely made the comments I mentioned earlier and

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Speaker 1: the one we played. What he's got this investigation going on?

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Speaker 1: What can you discern in terms of what the president

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Speaker 1: and strategy is here? I don't see that the president

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Speaker 1: has any strategy. He's created chaos throughout at least the

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Speaker 1: Justice Department UH and has repeatedly made contradictory statements UH

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Speaker 1: and statements that go on the will beyond the pale

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Speaker 1: in terms of being the subject of an investigation which

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Speaker 1: by this time, no doubt President Trump is. And so

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Speaker 1: I think you start with the notion that h he

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Speaker 1: has been stealing like a tea kettle and may reach

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Speaker 1: the boil at any moment, provoking a constitutional crisis. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he cannot abide the situation he finds himself in with

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Speaker 1: Sessions quite properly recusing and Trump seething at sessions decision

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Speaker 1: that put in Starring in the position as acting Attorney General,

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Speaker 1: a man wide widely praised on both sides of the aisle,

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Speaker 1: and confirmed I think by a vote of two um.

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Speaker 1: So he's Trump's pick. And then he promptly appoints Bob

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Speaker 1: Mueller as UH special counsel. Now, Bob Muller has bipartisans support,

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Speaker 1: and rightly so, because he is an extraordinary pick to

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Speaker 1: leave the investigation. He is a man of unmatched integrity,

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Speaker 1: great experience as a former federal prosecutor and the former

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Speaker 1: FBI director, and there's no one who could suggest that

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Speaker 1: he lacks the integrity to conduct the investigation. Peter, let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about President Trump being very upset

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Speaker 1: about his personal finances being looked into. Mueller is empowered

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Speaker 1: to look at any matters arising from his investigation. Everyone

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Speaker 1: who knows these kinds of investigations, No, you follow the money?

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Speaker 1: Is he is following the money within his purview? Yeah? Absolutely, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're, you're, any investigation is going to be

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Speaker 1: looking at these financial relationships, um, with Russians and with

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Speaker 1: Russia and trying to understand um for one thing, motive um,

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Speaker 1: which could explain the relationships and the behavior, you know,

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Speaker 1: the frankly bizarre behavior um of the president in regards

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Speaker 1: to Russia and why he may have colluded, which is

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Speaker 1: part of the investigation. So if there is indebtedness that

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Speaker 1: he has with Russia or Russians that these old arks

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Speaker 1: with business with loans, um, then it's absolutely fair game.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, he would be derelict if look at

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Speaker 1: it this way. Let's let's say he looked at it narrowly.

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Speaker 1: I'm only gonna look at the last sixteen months. President

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Speaker 1: Trump's apparent unhappiness with the investigation into possible collusion with

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Speaker 1: Russia manifested itself this week in a number of statements

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Speaker 1: the President made, including assertions that the special investigator has

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Speaker 1: conflicts of interest and that it would cross a red

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Speaker 1: line if the investigation looks at his finances. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about the investigation with two former government officials, Peter Zeidenberg

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Speaker 1: of Aaron Fox and Richard Benveniste of Mayor Brown. Peter,

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Speaker 1: the President does appear to be doing trying to do

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Speaker 1: something to affect at least perception of this investigation by

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Speaker 1: making all these comments. Is it likely to have any

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Speaker 1: impact on Special Counsel Robert Mueller? Not directly on Mueller

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Speaker 1: or his team. This is pure background noise to them,

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Speaker 1: and they're not gonna it's not gonna make one bit

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Speaker 1: of difference to them at all. They're not going to

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Speaker 1: be intimidated by it. They're not going to be particularly

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Speaker 1: bothered by it. But it's more of a political question, um,

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Speaker 1: because he's trying to stir up his base and to

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Speaker 1: get put out talking points for Fox News and for

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Speaker 1: you know, avid supporters of of the president to uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's really just a political gamp, but not

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Speaker 1: a legal one. And um, Richard, he's also been talking,

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Speaker 1: according to what Washington Post last night, he's been the

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Speaker 1: President has been asking about his partnering power and even

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Speaker 1: about partnering himself. Can a president pardon himself? It's not

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Speaker 1: been determined by the courts whether that's possible. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think the stronger argument is that it's not. If you

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Speaker 1: look at the history of the pardon power, and he

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Speaker 1: may be sending a message to those who have information

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Speaker 1: damaging to the president, um, that he has his power

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Speaker 1: and is prepared to use it. So they ought to

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Speaker 1: stay in line. Now he can pardon anyone other than himself. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there there will be tremendous political consequences for him doing so,

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Speaker 1: because that would truncate the investigation certainly at this early point. Peter,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you when you look at these comments

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Speaker 1: the president has made, and the fact is thinking about pardons,

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Speaker 1: that they're investigating, the investigators who are investigating them, that

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Speaker 1: he is uh that you know, he said all these

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Speaker 1: things about who reports to who, and whether Sessions should

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Speaker 1: be attorney general. One wonders about, in the context of

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Speaker 1: the obstruction of justice investigation, what does the president seem

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Speaker 1: to think about? You know, what do these comments tell

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Speaker 1: us about the way the president thinks about his relationship

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Speaker 1: to other officials in the government. Well, I'll make the

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Speaker 1: same observations that others have made in the last day

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Speaker 1: or so, which is this is all of a piece

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Speaker 1: that shows that, you know, the president seems to think

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Speaker 1: that he treats the government like he's the CEO of

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Speaker 1: an organization and everyone reports to him and he's the

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Speaker 1: boss of everyone. UM. That's not the way d o J,

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Speaker 1: for instance, works. UM. The FBI director doesn't report directly

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Speaker 1: to the president, like he said, he reports to the

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Speaker 1: attorney general, actually the deputy attorney general. So there are

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Speaker 1: structures in place and UM and norms in place, and

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Speaker 1: the president has no understanding how any of that works.

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Speaker 1: And that's to put it charitably. UM. Just on the

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Speaker 1: point that Richard made about UM the pardon power of

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Speaker 1: parting one self, whether he could pardon himself, I think

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Speaker 1: that that is UM an issue that's really an away

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Speaker 1: academic because I don't think it's likely or or even

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Speaker 1: in the realm of possibility, that he would be indicted anyway.

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Speaker 1: I think the light more much greater likelihood is that

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Speaker 1: he would be impeached, in which case partying himself would

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Speaker 1: only make it more likely he'd be impeached, not less likely. Richard,

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Speaker 1: you were Watergate prosecutor, and there has been some noise

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Speaker 1: that President Trump might try to fire the special counsel

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Speaker 1: as he fired Jim Comey. Would that parallel the seventy

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Speaker 1: three Saturday Night massacre? I think it would be even

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Speaker 1: worse on the circumstances where he's already used his executive

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Speaker 1: power to fire Jim Comey, who was investigating him and

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Speaker 1: other aspects. Um, He's also fired Tree Baha, the U

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Speaker 1: S Attorney for the Southern District of New York. So

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Speaker 1: you see a pattern of firing people who have the

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Speaker 1: power to do him harm, and they do him harm

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Speaker 1: only in connection with their legal authority to investigate longdoing

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Speaker 1: each of these steps makes Trump look more and more

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Speaker 1: guilty of something. And if, in fact, Uh he fires

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Speaker 1: Mueller or attempts to do so through the chain of

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Speaker 1: command that the Justice Department by firing people who refuse

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Speaker 1: to do so until he gets to one who will,

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Speaker 1: then he's created a constitutional crisis in this country. He

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Speaker 1: looks guilty as hell as Nixon did. By the way,

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Speaker 1: when he fired Archibald cox Um, people who are on

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Speaker 1: the sidelines are under side did said to themselves, what

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Speaker 1: is he hiding to incur this kind of chaos upon

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Speaker 1: the country, Uh, Peter, In just about twenty seconds, do

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Speaker 1: you think that what the President said makes the case

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Speaker 1: easier for Muller to make, uh, you know, because of

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Speaker 1: an obstruction you know, he has made so many comments,

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Speaker 1: um like this to show state of mind in terms

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Speaker 1: of a possible obstruction case. You know, at this point,

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Speaker 1: it's it's just guilding the lily. He's made it very

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Speaker 1: clear why he fired uh Comey and his interest in

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Speaker 1: firing Mueller. So he's just digging the hole deeper. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to leave it there. Are thanks to

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Speaker 1: Peter Zeidenberg of Aaron Fox and Richard Bandernisti of Mayor

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Speaker 1: Brown for being here. On Bloomberg Law. Coming up, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about whether the Federal Trade Commission is

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Speaker 1: acting as aggressively under President Trump as it did under

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Speaker 1: President Obama. That's right ahead on Bloomberg Law. You're listening

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Speaker 1: to Bloomberg Radio. This is Bloomberg m