1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to brain Stuff production of iHeart Radio, Hey brain 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Stuff Lauren boglebam Here in California, the manager of a 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: car dealership contacted police and described a scary situation. An 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: employee allegedly had confided to a coworker that if he 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: was fired from his job, he would shoot his supervisor 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: and other employees, though he would warn the coworker in 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: advance so the coworker could escape. Thanks to the red 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: flag law the California enacted in the police could take 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: action in this case right away without having to charge 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: the employee with a crime. The cops obtained a court 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: order and the next day seized five firearms. The court 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: subsequently issued another order allowing authorities to hold on to 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: the weapons for a year. That case, described in an 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: article by University of California Davis researchers that was published 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: in August of nineteen in the Journal and Alls of 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: Internal Medicine, is an example of what many advocate as 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: a way to prevent the mass shootings that have increasingly 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: plagued the United States. Red flag laws are designed to 19 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: give authorities a way to intervene and take guns away 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: from a person who's perceived as a possible threat. They 21 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: can do that even if the person doesn't have a 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: criminal record, or a history of being institutionalized for mental illness, 23 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: or other factors that might show up in the federal 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: instant background check system and prevent the person from buying 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: again from a dealer in the first place. The problem 26 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: is that loopholes and emissions in state records submitted to 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: the background check system have often enabled people who went 28 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: on to become mass shooters to obtain guns even when 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: they should have been disqualified. We spoke with Jeffrey Swanson, 30 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Duke University 31 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: School of Medicine. He said, we focus all his attention 32 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: on the point of sale upon people who have felony, 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: criminal record or mental health record. Those rules are too 34 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: narrow and too broad. They identify lots of people because 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: they had an involuntary commitment twenty five years ago and 36 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't hurt anybody, and they also failed to identify people 37 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: who do pose a risk. We also spoke with Daniel J. Flannery, 38 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: director of the Begun Center for Violence Prevention, Research and 39 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: Education at Case Western Reserve University. He said, this is 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: about putting protocols in place so that when an individual 41 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: is identified as potentially being a threat to themselves or 42 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: other people, police and courts would have the authority to 43 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: remove firearms. According to Flannery, red flag laws try to 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: strike a middle ground between protecting public safety and individual rights. 45 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: A person who's flagged isn't arrested or charged with a crime, 46 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: and authorities have to be able to convince a judge 47 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: that them having guns poses a risk, and the person 48 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: has an opportunity to get the weapons back at some point. 49 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Flannery said there's a due process to that so that 50 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: it's not automatic and not permanent. So far, red flag 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: laws have been enacted by seventeen states, plus the District 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: of Columbia. In Florida, where a red flag law was 53 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: enacted in twenty eighteen in the wake of the Marjorie 54 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: Stoneman Douglas High School shooting, authorities have utilized it to 55 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: take guns away from more than two thousand pep bowl. 56 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: Red flag laws have attracted some strong public support. A 57 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: Washington Post and ABC News poll conducted an early of 58 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: September twenty nineteen, for example, found that eighty six percent 59 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: of Americans supported allowing the police to take guns away 60 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: from people whom a judge finds dangerous. That included of Democrats, Republicans, 61 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: and eighty two percent of independence polled this August. Even 62 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: President Donald Trump, who otherwise mostly has been an opponent 63 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: of gun control, indicated his support for red flag laws. 64 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: On the other side, the National Rifle Association's website criticizes 65 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: existing red flag laws as violating gun owners Second Amendment rights. 66 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: Civil rights and Second Amendment advocates that are against red 67 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: flag laws say the seizures of these individuals weapons is 68 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: a violation of the u S constitutions guarantee to do process, 69 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: which means the people should have the right to argue 70 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: their case in court before their guns are taken, not after. 71 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 1: And whether or not red flag laws do much prevent 72 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: mass shootings is a difficult question to answer. The study 73 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: we mentioned at the top of this episode, conducted by 74 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: the u C. Davis researchers, cited twenty one cases in 75 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: California in which a court issued in order to seize 76 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: guns quote after the subject of the order had made 77 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: a clear declaration of intent to commit a bass shooting 78 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: or had exhibited behavior suggesting such an intent, but it's 79 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: not really possible to prove conclusively that any of the 80 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: individuals actually would have committed such an act. Swanson wrote 81 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: in a Washington Post opinion piece that red flag laws 82 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily going to prevent killings by mass shooters, except 83 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: in instances in which an alert citizen notices that an 84 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: angry young man is amassing and arsenal. Nevertheless, Swanson supports 85 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: such laws because he and other researchers have found strong 86 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: evidence that they reduce another sort of gun violence that 87 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: cumulatively inflicts a much higher death toll, suicide by firearm 88 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: in he and colleagues calculated that for every twenty guns 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: seized through red flag law, one suicide is prevented. Preventing 90 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: people with the potential to develop suicidal ideation from getting 91 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: guns does save lives because research shows that people who 92 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,559 Speaker 1: attempt suicide by other methods end up surviving of the time, 93 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: but with a gun, they're effective at killing themselves almost 94 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: all of the time. Swanson said, from the picture of 95 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: public health, that's a good enough reason for red flag laws. 96 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: Today's episode was written by Patrick Jake Tiger and produced 97 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: by Tyler Clang. Brain Stuff is a production of I 98 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio's has Stuff Works. For more on this and 99 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: lots of other topics, visit our home planet how Stuff 100 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: Works dot com and for more podcast my heart Radio, 101 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: visit that I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 102 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.