1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. He's billions of dollars 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: over budget. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: So he either is a competent or is crooked. 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: I don't know what he is, but he does it 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: certainly doesn't do a very good. 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 3: Job on the verge of naming his own Federal Reserve chief. 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 3: The Trump administration has taken one more shot at the 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 3: person in the job now and in the process maybe 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 3: triggered a Washington backlash that could derail his whole campaign 10 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 3: to tighten control over the Central Bank. We're recording this 11 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 3: on Tuesday morning, Washington time, and that is all that 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 3: everybody in DC and financial markets is talking about. The 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 3: Administration's renewed attack on Chairman J. Powell and the FED matters, because, 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 3: for better or worse, America's Central Bank is still the 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 3: central cog around which much of the global financial system revolves. 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 3: If it's under attack, then to some extent, the global 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 3: system looks less secure. But that part of the story 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 3: we'd heard before. What's new is that the broader reaction 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 3: to this latest assault from Republicans in Congress and even 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: some of the president's own cabinet may just have revealed 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 3: a red line. A constraint on the relentless expansion of 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: presidential power since Donald Trump returned to office last year. 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it also turns out there's a limit 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: to j. Powell's patients. 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 4: This new threat is not about my testimony last June 26 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 4: is not about Congress's oversight rule. The Fed, through testimony 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 4: and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 4: informed about the renovation project. Those are pretexts. The threat 30 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 4: of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve 31 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 4: setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what 32 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 4: will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 4: the president. This is about whether the Fed will be 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 4: able to continue to say interest rates based on evidence 35 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 4: in economic conditions, or whether instead monetary policy will be 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 4: directed by political pressure or intimidation. 37 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 3: I'm Stephanie Flander's head of government economics at Bloomberg. Welcome 38 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 3: to Trumponomics, the podcast that looks at the economic world 39 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: of Donald Trump, how he's already shaped the global economy, 40 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 3: and what on earth is going to happen next. President 41 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: Trump took his fight against Federal Reserve Chair Jaypowell one 42 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: step further this week when federal prosecutors began investigating Power 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: for his role overseeing renovation work being done on the 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: Central Banks headquarters. What was different in this time, as 45 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 3: I've mentioned, is that Pale got mad, and almost simultaneously 46 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 3: so did senior Republican lawmakers on the Senate Finance Committee. 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: One way or another, that reaction from senators and from 48 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: Powell himself could make it a whole lot harder for 49 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 3: the President to put more of his people in charge 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 3: of us official interest rates. Could also make it more 51 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: difficult for the people who are there now to support 52 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: the lower interest rates the President so wants to see, 53 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 3: even if the economy is calling for it. So possibly 54 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 3: not such a bright move on the administration's part, which 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: might be why the President is distancing himself from the 56 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 3: Department of Justice's decision to serve those subpoenas, why even 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: the Treasury Secretary, Scott Bessant has said he disagrees with them. 58 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 3: A lot to unpack there, joining us to discuss it all. 59 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 3: From DC Senior Washington correspondent Slaiah Mosen, author of Paper Soldiers, 60 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 3: How the weaponization of the dollar changed the world order. 61 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: Welcome Selaia at short notice. Thank you very much. 62 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: Great to be here, Stephanie. 63 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: And Trumpenomics regular and former FED official Anna Wong, chief 64 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 3: US economist for Bloomberg Economic. Anna, always great to have you. 65 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: Great to be here. 66 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: So Leah, let me start with you. This effort by 67 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 3: the Department of Justice, which obviously we're reading as yet 68 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 3: another kind of assault on the FED and on Chairman J. 69 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 3: Powell in particular. How quickly has that unraveled? And what 70 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: surprised you about the last few days. 71 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 2: I found it very surprising that senior White House officials 72 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: were shocked by the subpoena from the DOJ. Any president, 73 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 2: particularly President Donald Trump, has his own governing style. He 74 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: likes to be the one making the decisions. He doesn't 75 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: like those kinds of surprises. But it seems like his officials, 76 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: his staff now are trying to, I don't know, maybe 77 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 2: impress him by taking action unilaterally and say, hey, look 78 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 2: what I did for you, And this one has supremely backfired. 79 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 2: I thought it was really surprising that Trump said to 80 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: NBC News he did not know about this. Now there's 81 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 2: a few ways to read that, because at the end 82 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: of December, Trump did say, oh, I might file a 83 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: lawsuit against J. 84 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 3: Powell. 85 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 2: Maybe he had heard it might be coming. But it 86 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: seems very clear that senior White House officials plus Donald 87 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: Trump did not give a final sign off to this action. 88 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 3: He has often after the fact, distanced himself from some 89 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: of these slightly more contentious things that the DJ has done. 90 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 3: But you think this goes beyond that they genuinely were surprised. 91 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 2: I do. I think it's reasonable and appropriate to apply 92 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 2: that kind of skepticism when you hear that from anyone 93 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: in power. Always questioned what they knew when they knew it. 94 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: But in this situation, Trump has such a keen eye 95 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 2: turned toward what he wants to do with the Federal Reserve. 96 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: He talks about it frequently. He likes to tease it out. 97 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 2: He has really enjoyed this apprentice style public auditioning process 98 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 2: for the FED chair. He likes the attention. He likes 99 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: that markets are so curious, hanging on each and every turn. 100 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: He would not want to take his eye off the ball, 101 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: particularly when it comes to markets. He really watches how 102 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: markets moves. He understands these things. He talks to CEOs, banks, 103 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 2: CEOs industries, other companies. He knows that this is a 104 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: big one. In his officials, his senior economic team, they 105 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: also know how keenly he's watching this. You wouldn't see 106 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: Treasure Secretary Besant take a step like this without making 107 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 2: sure that the commander in chief new. 108 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: And indeed Scott Bessant has apparently, at least we're hearing 109 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: from Axios and others, he's said that he thinks this 110 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: is a mistake. 111 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. He told Trump, according to Axios, that this whole 112 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: thing has messed up the somewhat organized process that he 113 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: had put in place to keep markets calm, to keep 114 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: Trump focused on the larger target when it comes to 115 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: choosing a fed chair replacement for Powell coming up in May. 116 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 2: Since June, we've seen a somewhat organized process if we 117 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: have eleven candidates and then it's going to be whittled down. 118 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 2: He's been communicating everything working pretty much, and locks up 119 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 2: with Trump and then Poulty comes in and orchestrates the 120 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: firing of Lisa Cook when Scott besson is not in town. 121 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: That's a matter of public record and also what you 122 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: can piece together from what we know publicly. On Friday, 123 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 2: when the DOJ sent the subpoena notices. Bessant was in Minnesota, 124 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: so once again he was not in town when this 125 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,679 Speaker 2: move happened. He found out later. 126 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: And we should explain who Bill Pulty is. 127 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: So Bill Poulty is the Federal Housing Finance Agency director. 128 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: It is not usually such a public role. It's not 129 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: a senior cabinet officer level like a Commerce or Treasury 130 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: secretary type role. But he has really come out as 131 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: this bulldog for Trump on a lot of issues, from 132 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: housing affordability in obviously the Federal Reserve. And this is 133 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: kind of how Trump works. He likes to have his 134 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: bulldog there, a disruptor Trump. For a long time, we've 135 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: been hearing from sources that he really likes Paulty no 136 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: matter how much have he's wreaking, how mad Bussont might 137 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,119 Speaker 2: get it Pulty, Let's just remember that Busn't a couple 138 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 2: of months ago had a run in with Pulsy over 139 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: housing policy and a couple of other things where maybe 140 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: he was stepping on Treasury's toes and Busn't said, let's 141 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: stop outsiding in a be here. So it's a tense relationship, 142 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: but Trump enjoys this kind of theater. 143 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 3: Anna, I couldn't help thinking of you as a pretty 144 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: long time Fed official in various capacities before you came 145 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: to us. What do you think when you saw that 146 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 3: really unprecedented video message from Chair Pale the weekend? 147 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: I thought that the Trump administration's DOJ probe has awakened 148 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: the dragon. Powell has a usually very calm demeanor. He 149 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: doesn't get ruffled by a lot of things. 150 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 3: He was pretty restrained last year when they were touring 151 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 3: in their hard hats, touring the renovation, and Powell was 152 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: picking Trump up on his numbers. 153 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 4: So the two point seven is now three point one. 154 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it just came out. 155 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: Are you including the Martin renovation? You just add our 156 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 4: entire capital? You just you just added in the third buildings? 157 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 4: When that is that's a third building. 158 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: It's a building that's being built. 159 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 4: You know, it's been it was built five years ago 160 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 4: over as part of the overall. 161 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: So just looking at the past year, he has refrained 162 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: from commenting or pointing out that the administration interference into 163 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: monetary policy. But this time you could see that he 164 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: has lost his call. 165 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 3: And Seleia, the story we had today was that the 166 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: whole effort was going to potentially derail the president's efforts, 167 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 3: in part because this is going to make it much 168 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: less likely that the current chair J. Powell, leaves his 169 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: place on the board when he stops being chair in May. 170 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 3: That's what we're hearing from really anyone who knows Powe 171 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 3: well or as close to him. We had our own columnist, 172 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: Bill Dudley, former New York Fed chair, say that on 173 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: Bloomberg in the last day. Is that your belief? 174 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know. And this is something that administration officials 175 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: are also worried about. All last week. I was hearing 176 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: from officials and sources, people inside and outside the administration 177 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: that what if Powell doesn't leave. He hasn't said he's 178 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 2: going to step down in May. Traditionally a chair will 179 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: announce it, he will actually step aside. Powell had this 180 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 2: one piece of leverage, and he has used it. It 181 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 2: seems in ways that the Trump administration didn't quite foresee, 182 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: and maybe Powell himself didn't see just how important and 183 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 2: significant it was to just keep that to himself. Looking 184 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: at the tea leaves, talking to people close to Powell, 185 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: it seemed like he would leave in May. He was 186 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 2: just kind of holding that little card in abands in 187 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: case he needed to play it. And now not only 188 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: could he play it, the subpoena could backfire so significantly 189 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: that not only could Powell to side. Oh fine, I'm 190 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: going to stay. I can sit quietly in my office 191 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 2: at the headquarter and not oversee any big subcommittees, not 192 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: the chair, and I can just go in on FOMC 193 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: meetings and cast my vote and make sure I'm a 194 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: guard rail against any political interference. He could also end 195 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: up staying chair for longer, because we're hearing now from 196 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: Congress they are finally standing up. We heard from Senator Tillis. 197 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: It was pretty significant that he said he will not 198 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: confirm Trump's chair pick unless this is resolved. We've heard 199 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 2: from french Hill on the House side and other senators 200 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: on the Banking Committee that are Republicans saying and realizing 201 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: they need to protect the FED. So if there is 202 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: no chair that has been confirmed by the Senate, that 203 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: means Powell stays on until there is one. 204 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 3: And do you also think this is going to make 205 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: him less likely to leave in May? 206 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: I thought that there are two paths that this could 207 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: play out. Not leaving and May is potentially one but 208 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: not my baseline. And the second one, rather is that 209 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: think the more consequential unintended consequences of this is that 210 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: Chris Waller could be on the ascendants as the next 211 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: FED chair. 212 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 3: That's Chris Waller, who's been on the Board of Governors 213 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: since twenty twenty, and he's one of the considered to 214 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: be one of the three main candidates for the chair position. 215 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 4: That's right. 216 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Why I didn't think that Powell would leave, He's just tired. 217 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: He has been at the FED since twenty twelve. You 218 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: could tell in the video that on one hand you 219 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: can see outrage, anger, but on the other hand there 220 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: is weariness. He's just not the kind of confrontational person 221 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: who would sit in a boardroom in every meeting and 222 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: just passively sabotage the next person. He's just not that 223 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: type of person. He's either gonna openly fight or leave. 224 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: But on the other path, why I think Chris Waller 225 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: is ascendant is that given the voting situation that in 226 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: the Senate, we have the number of Republican voices from 227 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: the Senate that has said that there are potentially going 228 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: to oppose any confirmation of FEED chair nominees, suggests that 229 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: the person who now who can get through and whose 230 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: views aligned with Trump and who the financial market really 231 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: respect as Chris Waller. And also if it were Chris Waller, 232 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: Powell would probably be resigned to leave, knowing that the 233 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: FED independence would be safeguard for sure. 234 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: Celia, it seems odd that he would stop being chair 235 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: but still be on the board. Remind us how that 236 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: works and how many places the president theoretically had to 237 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: play for places he was potentially going to be able 238 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 3: to fill on that key committee and the FED, and 239 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: how this is how this might be affected. 240 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: Looking at tradition, Yes, it would be odd for a 241 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: FED chair to no longer be chair but hold onto 242 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: his governor's seat, But that's not the weirdest thing that's 243 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: happened in twenty twenty six in the first week. 244 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 3: And I guess we should say people come into their 245 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: positions as governors and that's kind of independent of the 246 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 3: role they hold. So if they have to be on 247 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 3: the board, to be a vice chair of Banking Division 248 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: or to be the chairman of the whole FED, but 249 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: their sort of seat as governor operates separately and on 250 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 3: a different timetable. I noticed there's also Michael barrs he's 251 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 3: not technically supposed to finish his term until twenty thirty two. 252 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: He was expected to also go this year, but there's 253 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: some question that he would stay for similar reasons. 254 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 2: Right even, you see the seat that Stephen Myron, who 255 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: is on leave from the White House as head of 256 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: the Council of Economic Advisors to Trump as a fed governor, 257 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: filling a seat left empty by Adrianna Kugler when she 258 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: resigned under some six cloud back in August. That term 259 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: expires in a couple of weeks, and he could roll 260 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: over and stay or be reconfirmed Powel's seat. Right now, 261 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: as governor, he has another two years, but his time 262 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 2: as chair expires in May. Of course he could stay 263 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: if there is no sitting chair. If you look at 264 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: the rest of the board. Michelle Bowman Chris Waller both 265 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: were nominated by President Trump earlier during his first term. 266 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: Lisa Cook. We will hear whether the Supreme Court will 267 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 2: uphold her bid to stay on the board. Otherwise that's 268 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: an open seat. We don't know what will happen to 269 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: the Stephen Myron seat, if he will be asked to 270 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: stay in that slot, or if that becomes the Kevin 271 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: Hassett slot, and then of course the whole administration, including Trump. 272 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: We're just wondering do we also get the Powell slot 273 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 2: to fill. 274 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 3: This threat from Senator Tom Tillis, which I noticed came 275 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 3: out almost moments after his statement came out moments after 276 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: the FED released its video, which to those on the 277 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 3: outside looked a bit like coordination. But who could possibly 278 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 3: comment but that threat to not confirm any new Trump 279 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 3: nominees to the FAIRE until this potential criminal case is resolved. 280 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 3: How seriously do you take that? We haven't had a 281 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 3: lot of fighting back by Congress in the last year. 282 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: No, we really haven't. And Trump doesn't seem to care 283 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 2: about Congress, and he's been able to steamroll them on 284 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: a lot of things, including possibly his activities in Venezuela. 285 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: But what we're seeing is Tillis. Yes, he came out 286 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: very quickly, very strong. It was a big deal, but 287 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: just a reminder that he is retiring. So yet another 288 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: politician who has. 289 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: You know, terribly brave as they Yeah, he's another. 290 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: Praise that probably isn't for air, but very brave for 291 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 2: standing up to Trump. Okay, let's take it. Who we 292 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: haven't heard from Yanda. Senator Tim Scott. He is the 293 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: chair of a Senate banking committee, a powerful Republican in 294 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: the Senate. He hasn't said anything that's not completely uncharacteristic. 295 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: He does tend to stay kind of mom on issues. 296 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: But Tillis will need some support. But even others who, 297 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: as they say, they have disagreed with power and think 298 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: he's a terrible chair still say, oh, but I don't 299 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 2: think he's a criminal. And then we heard from House 300 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: Republican French Hill. I'm sure he doesn't. He has doesn't 301 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: have a role in confirming the next chair or FED personnel, 302 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: but he is a very strong voice on the Republican side, 303 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 2: and he said, this isn't what the FED needs to 304 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 2: be focused on. Is someone going to be indicted and 305 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: thrown into jail. They should be focused on the economy. 306 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 3: Anna. Of course, one of the key goals that the 307 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: President has in this whole effort one is to just 308 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 3: control the FED as much as he can. But in 309 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: theory it's also a means to the end of lowering 310 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: interest rates. So you know, how does this potentially affect 311 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 3: that decision? Because you know, it did seem like things 312 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 3: were kind of falling into place, you know, lower interest 313 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 3: rates this year, regardless of who was head of the FED. 314 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 3: So does this make things difficult for people who are 315 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 3: making that decision inside the Fed, whether they're appointed by 316 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 3: President and Trump or not. 317 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. Before this incident, the data was cooperating right. 318 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: So for example, we just had a CPI release which 319 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: was surprisingly low. This is following another CPI report that's 320 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: very low, and Powell himself said in December that he 321 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: expects core goods prices to peak in the first quarter 322 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: and for tariff path through to have peaked. So inflation 323 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: is definitely improving. And on top of that, we have 324 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: a productivity boom that's happening in the second half of 325 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. We estimate that non farm productivity is 326 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: likely going to be a run at a pace on 327 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: average of five percent, and that basically helps with the 328 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: inflation trajectory as well. So if everything just let the 329 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: data play out, long term rates would have declined this 330 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: year and now if the administration won't back down from 331 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: this attack. But there's a risk of risk premium rising 332 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: on the perception that FED independence is being eroded, and 333 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: also internally there might be some fears that this kind 334 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: of assault could broad into other Fed of OMC officials 335 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: who are perceived as hawkish. 336 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 3: Just to sort of unpack that a little bit, so 337 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 3: you're saying, whoever's Fed, and we know there will be 338 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: a new FED chair, whatever else happens, and they will 339 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 3: be appointed by President Trump, and there will have been 340 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 3: all of this lead up to that appointment. It becomes 341 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 3: harder for them to convince the financial markets that they're 342 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 3: doing something for the right reasons when they cut rates, 343 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: and long term interest rates could still be higher even 344 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 3: though they've cut short term rates. But you're saying, there's 345 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 3: that credibility problem with the markets, but there also is 346 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 3: potentially a credibility or a persuasion problem internally with FED officials. 347 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 3: That's right, And how much do you think they're feeling 348 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: that now? You've talked on previous programs about how important 349 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: it was going to be for say Kevin Hassett to 350 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 3: spend a few months doing the hard work internally to 351 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: bring people around. Do you think that is just now 352 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 3: a lot harder. 353 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: Well, in this scenario where Powell's stayed on long after 354 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: his May expiration as chair, I think it will be 355 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: harder even for Powell. And Powell has played a critical 356 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 1: role in the lowering of rates last year. Had it 357 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: not been for his leadership, we would not have seen 358 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: that twenty five bibs cut in December. So Powell is 359 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: trying to do the data dependent objective thing as opposed 360 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: to you know, the majority of the FOMC who are 361 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: hawkish and who are regional presidents, who who despite the data, 362 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: are leaning on concerns about upside risk to inflation. So 363 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: I think this incident makes it harder for Powell to 364 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: play that role that he has been playing in the 365 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: last a year. So basically the administration is taking out 366 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 1: a dove. 367 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 3: That is interesting. So you think interest rates are lower 368 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 3: now than they would have been under another chair, Yes, yes, 369 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: because other chairs might well have been more concerned about 370 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 3: the inflation risks. 371 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. It's either Powell, Waller, Bowman, or Steve Myern. 372 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: These are the four doves on the committee. And out 373 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: of these four, Powell and perhaps Waller have the soft 374 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: power to persuade the other hawkish regional fed And so 375 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: now this formula has broken down, Powell has lost this call. 376 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: So what's up in the air. Is whether he can 377 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: still be that really objective, honest broker between the Hawkish 378 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: and the Darvish folks on the committee, or would he 379 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: rather be like I have had it, I'm going with 380 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: the Hawkish faction because right now we need to safeguard 381 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: the optics of FED independence, even if the data would 382 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: have pushed him to cut further. 383 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 3: Finally, to Usulea, we're focusing on the independence of the 384 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 3: FED and what it means even for monetary policy, which 385 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 3: is what we should do because we're Trump and Noomics. 386 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 3: But I did mention at the start that for many 387 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 3: people this is also about a kind of broader question 388 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 3: of are there going to be any limits to presidential 389 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 3: power in this administration? And are there red lines that 390 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: the president finds he can't cross in trying to extend 391 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: his purview as president. Over the months, when I've talked 392 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 3: to people, even inside the FED, they see themselves as 393 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: partly that this battle is about the independence of central bank, 394 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: but also about kind of the rule of law in 395 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 3: the US. Do you think some of these people who 396 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: are concerned about this decision is that part of their 397 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 3: justification or is there just a special case when it 398 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 3: comes to the Central Bank. 399 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: I think it's both, or I wonder if it's both. 400 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 2: It's really something that in the week where the Trump 401 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 2: administration blocked for their investigation of the shooting by an 402 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 2: ICE agent of an American citizen in Minnesota, the same 403 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 2: administration as saying, we're going to investigate Jerome Powell, and 404 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 2: then we also. 405 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 3: And the second of those is what's really caused the 406 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: most republican outright and at. 407 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: The same time, in an interview with The New York 408 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: Times on Wednesday, I believe it was last week, not 409 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: even a week ago, he said to them. In a 410 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: question about Venezuela, which also happened just in the last 411 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 2: couple of days. He was asked about Venezuela, what are 412 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 2: the limits? He said, It's not international law, it's my 413 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: own morality. And I think we should expect him to 414 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: apply the same rubric when it comes to the Central Bank. 415 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: It's not laws necessarily, it's what he himself is or 416 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: isn't willing to do. 417 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,119 Speaker 3: But it's also about what others around him, and specifically 418 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: people in Congress. And I guess we might even see 419 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 3: this week people in Supreme Court judge is appropriate for 420 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: a president? Do you think this has signed nilled an 421 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 3: overreach in his sort of broader expansion, or as I 422 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 3: said before, is it just about the Central Bank? You 423 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 3: can take everything else, but protect the Fed. 424 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 2: Let's see what the Supreme Court says. I feel like 425 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 2: this is we have to protect the FED because that's 426 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 2: our economy. That's inflation. That's how much the purchase and 427 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 2: power of every American domestically and internationally. And when that 428 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: goes away, every politician, every lawmaker, every administration official knows 429 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 2: that's when voters just a revolt. And we've seen that 430 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: in recent years. We're looking at a generation who you know, 431 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 2: I was born in the eighties. I only learn about 432 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: inflation and the double digits from my parents. We haven't 433 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 2: experienced this, so people are going to get very mad. 434 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 2: At the same time, you know, the Federal Reserve and 435 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: those who support the independence of the Federal Reserve should 436 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: feel fortunate that we have J. Powell as the chair 437 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 2: right now in twenty twenty six. He is a lawyer, 438 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: but also he has deep decades old relationships on Capitol Hill, 439 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: and I I think that is really paying off right now. 440 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 2: Not every predecessor of his spent as much time cultivating 441 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: those relationships on both sides of the aisle. 442 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 3: Wow, Okay, we're going to maybe see what it takes 443 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 3: to see off an effort like this from the Trump administration, although, 444 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 3: as we said at the start, one that many members 445 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 3: of the Trump administration, including the President, seemed to be 446 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 3: quite keen to distance themselves from Anna Wong. Thank you 447 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 3: so much, thanks for listening to Trumpomics from Bloomberg. It 448 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 3: was hosted by me Stephanie Flanders. I was joined by 449 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 3: Selaiah Mosen, Senior Washington correspondent for Bloomberg News, and Anna Wah, 450 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 3: chief economist for Bloomberg Economics. Trumponomics was produced by Summer 451 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: Sadi and Moses and with special thanks to Bob Bragg. 452 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: Sound design was by Blake Naples and Kelly Garrett. To 453 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: help others find the show, please rate and review it 454 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 3: highly wherever you listen to podcasts.